What Ruined Chloé Bourgeois? | A Critical Retrospective
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ค. 2024
- Let's examine when Chloé's character was destroyed. Was Miracle Queen really to blame? (Yes).
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
03:59 Chloé In Season 1
06:17 Chloé In Season 2
13:38 Chloé In Season 3
18:57 Chloé In Season 4 & 5
29:56 Outro
The clip from 25:57 is from GN Plus:
• Miraculous Ladybug Rev...
Outro Art:
www.artstation.com/camillecreako
Chloe is unredeemable they say.
Reedemtion arcs provided:
Gabriel, who tired to end his son several times (out of char noir costume). Who's hatred blinded him to the easy way out and get away eith it scott free. Ended his secretary. Could have learned to move on but inatead decided to quit life and pretend he did good.
Andre, literally kidnapped a child that isnt his, incentiveced tons of questionable laws, manipulative, corrupted.
These are grown adults. Who should know better. But yes, the 15 year old girl is the problem.
Gabriel needs life in prison
Audrey needs life in prison
Andre needs life in prison
Chloe and Nathalie need therapy and a vacation
@@K33L4N-B3Y HEAR, HEAR!!!!
@@K33L4N-B3YI think Felix also needs therapy. But I agree with all the adults who are awful being put in prison. Don't forget Tomoe. Kagami's mom definitely deserves to be put in prison.
HES A FRICKING TERRORIST BUT NOOOO THIS TEEN IS THE SOURCE OF EVIL
FELIX TOOO, all the excuses they came up with to not redeem Chloe, Felix portrayed yet STILL got redeemed, he sides with the main villain, handed him all the Miraculous, attempted to s/a Ladybug, revealed his identity and proceeded to terrorize the city (which was unnecessary since the people he deemed were monsters were really only the rich snobby privileged people, WHICH HE IS, NO ONE KNOWS HE'S A SENTIMONSTER SO IDK WHY HE LIKES TO ACT OPRESSED WHEN PPL OUTSIDE OF HIS PARENTS DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THAT IS.) His biggest offense is NEVER apologizing for his actions, unlke Chloe who actually sincerely apologized to Ladybug, he was self-serving to the end and never showed signs of changing, but because he had Kagami to shield him of any consequences to his actions, he didn't face any and got rewarded by being allowed to keep the Miraculous in the end!!
His peace is solely dependent on the fact that they're Kagami's friends, should they break up he would probably start being a menace again 💀
I got so pressed when they decided to give his ass a sobstory to justify and redeem him when chloe was actively denied that and her trauma was not acknowledged or taken seriously within the show and brushed off, on top of that they made the DAD the victim when it's his fault she turned out that way!! and instead of him owning up to his mistakes or forcing her to get help in some way, she gets send off with her neglectful mother.
Thomas in a nutshell
Grabriel: terrorist, abuses his son, has ended the world a few times im some episodes ( ephemeral for example) , doesnt give adrien the closure of What really happened to his mom, abuses nathalie, put everyone in danger in every episode, probably is even willing to kill people, literally main villain
Thomas: Hes misunderstood😭 he's so redeemable
Chloe: rich bully with neglectful mother, who is just teenager
Thomas: Your satan. You are irredeemable
Yep its frustrating!
Winny thinks Gabriel is a "Great father" apparently I think he got asked if he was joking when he said that and he said he wasn't.
They also compared Nathelie approaching Gabe with a Cross Bow to Citizen Kane (no really they did that)
Also her father. Never forget that he was a corrupt mayor that neglected his daugther and tried to compensate that with money.
@@jazmindiez3921 its true
@@90lancastersorry this is still someone on the crew yes?😅 because that’s NUTS
People theorize that Chloe was probably based off of a schoolyard bully that Thomas Astruct used to know, but honestly? The fact that Chloe was briefly good only to be vilified and devalued beyond all measure makes it feel like Chloe is based off of some woman Astruct was dating and things were going well for a while before she broke up with him and this petty, petty emotionally immature man, with his broken heart decided to write Chloe as being this horrible, awful irredeemable villain.
And that theory sounds like a stretch until you remember that Astruct based Sabine off of a crush he had (Marinette’s father is even named “Thomas”) and Marinette is supposed to be the love child between him and his crush, which explains the constant favoritism towards Marinette.
It’s not entirely out of the question that Chloe might be based off of an ex girlfriend or the imagined daughter of an ex girlfriend he had.
And not only that but on his Twitter, this man has the nerve to say that Chloe isn’t an abused child. I’m sorry, but when a child is literally asking their mother “Why don’t you love me, mom?” That is a very clear sign of abuse. It’s neglect. Neglect is abusive. Thomas saying that Chloe isn’t an abused child is just so far removed from reality, it’s aggravating.
Y'know, this isn't far off from the golden child/black sheep family dynamic that I've seen in a ton of Reddit stories I've been watching on TH-cam lately. With Marinette being the golden child, and Chloe the black sheep.
And I think it kinda hurts when her father openly prefers an affair baby as opposed to his biological daughter is just... Oof size: large. Zoe is not even Andre's biological daughter, and yet he treats her better than he does Chloe. It's like he doesn't even care that his wife cheated on him and had an illegitimate child, and is obviously playing favorites. I would probably be heartbroken and betrayed if my own dad preferred an illegitimate child in the family over me, because it shows that not even Andre wants her. And I think it's obvious that Andre was a pretty neglectful dad, only giving her gifts to occupy herself with while he did politician stuff. So Chloe feels unloved by both of her parents, just in different ways. Audrey was out of the picture for a really long time, and Andre was basically never there for her. Armand was kinda like a father figure to her, but that wasn't enough for her. She needed her dad, the only other parent in her life with whom she lived with. And she never got that. I think the reason why she wanted Audrey to love her was because she gave up on trying to get love from her dad. She believed that if she acted snobby and rude just like her mom, then she'd love her. And her lack of an active parent caused her to take her emotions out on others, believing that their suffering would make her feel less alone in her own suffering. It's only when she realizes that she's actually hurting people does she realize what she's done, so she dials it back. But by that point, it's too late. One of her victims would try and make sure Chloe suffers just as much as she suffered, while hypocritically trying to be a virtuous martyr of some sort. Chloe essentially created, or rather, continued the cycle of abuse: Chloe was hurt by her parents, Marinette was hurt by Chloe, and Chloe was hurt by Marinette. Now that I think about it, the uno reverse card of mistreatment is kinda messed up, because as much as bullying is wrong and bad, bullying another bully is arguably worse. It isn't poetic justice, it isn't comeuppance, and it most certainly isn't consequences. Why do you think so many school shootings happened in America? A bully victim can become so broken that their minds become twisted to the point of hurting other people in the process.
Chloe was traumatized by the neglect she received as a young child. Marinette was traumatized by Chloe's actions because of her own trauma. If your trauma from mistreatment is so bad that you genuinely want to see your abuser suffer the same way you did, then you probably need to go see a psychiatrist or a therapist. In all honesty, I think both Marinette and Chloe need therapy.
I have heard there is a strong indication that Chloe is based on a Director of Animation who treated her staff poorly when Astruc was a Jnr under her a couple of decades back. I think the only reason people don't name her is they don't want to get sued.
@@90lancaster I’m still so confused about why give Chloe a redemption arc? Why give the audience hope to see her improve? If you’re gonna have a bad character who’s based off of a bad person you dislike then commit to it and go all the way, right? Like why even bother writing in Chloe’s sympathetic qualities unless you saw SOME good in the person you allegedly based her off of only to then rip it all away? Because at that point, it’s not a dunk on the individual she’s allegedly based on. It’s a dunk on the audience.
@@WouldntWeather That seems to be down to Jeremy and Seb they wanted Chloe to be Queen Bee then when the attention moved to making Movies they let Austric do what he liked pretty much and it seems making Marinette a stalker and Chloe satanic was what he wanted. I would note that their new Writer is actually named "Chloe" and also that Thomas has be moved to a more supervisory & consulting role.. so I wouldn't be surprised if Season 6 starts to be a different as Season 2 & 3 was from Season 1 and season 4 & 5 was from the previous ones in total.
Chloe's supposed to still be in the show though, to what purpose I have not a clue.
There is a lot of ways to use Chloe they just will not as they seem so overly focused on Adrienette shipping to the detriment of the rest of the show so much so that season 5 seemed like certain things were just direct repetition.
I never expected the entire love Square to break down to the point it doesn't exist in any form other than Adrinette.
Really? Chloe wasn't written off the show? Although I would like to see her return, I wonder what they could do for her after she's earned the hate of everyone in Paris.@@90lancaster
While it is true that there are people who choose to not change and forever be the person they are, there are people like Chloe who do want to change and bee better. It sucks that Chloe ended up the way she did after Season 3, she deserved better. Hopefully, the movies will do Chloe justice and make her Queen Bee permanently.
Was that a bee pun!?
While I have little hope that Chloe will be redeem. It hurts a little because Lyra is RIGHT THERE!
Edit: OK, I see your talking about the movie and there I have hope but not alot.
Because Mayura is confirmed to be returning for the movie's sequel, there is a high chance that the heroes will need help, and because it is confirmed that the bee, turtle, and fox exist in the movie, we're definitely getting the three other heroes
There is simply not enough time to introduce Zoe and ruin Chloe's arc for the movie, and we'll probably spent most of it with the whole sentimonster deal
But I wonder if they'll introduce Felix
If they do show Chloe becoming better, SHE BETTER GET HER OWN SONG
I think that in the second MBL film she will be Queen Bee, but maybe that's just my fan mind speaking louder
@@K33L4N-B3Y The first film chronologically takes place in the first season, following this logic, the second will take place in the second season. So, they can't rule out Queen Bee
How I see it, whenever characters are getting more interesting development [beside Marinette], it's always short-lived... A few examples are:
• Chloe went from being a misunderstood girl turned straight up heartless for no reason.
• Alya, who's known for being smarter than Marinette turned dumb and believed Lila over Marinette.
• Nino went from a chill character turned into a horrible friend and boyfriend compared to season 1-3.
• Kim, the funny jock randomly gave Marinette ptsd over love.
Also, the whole story of Kim and Chloe seemed was forced and out of nowhere [IMO] because why are we just hearing about this in season 5 and not the s1-4?! Honestly, Marinette's backstory feels like an excuse for all the weird stalking she did in the past episodes and special. Not to mention, she helped Kim ask Chloe on a date in season 1 [Unknowingly that is].
Good point. 😊
All of the characters were flanderized so much in later seasons.
I think Season 2 showed everyone with the most nuance.
@@ACriticalRetrospective Wasn't Astruc away during Season 2? If so, that explains why it was the best season and already the highest rated on multiple sites
@@K33L4N-B3Y oh that makes so much sense...
@@K33L4N-B3YYes he was away during season 2 only to come back at season 3.
Chloe was supposedly inspired by an actual childhood bully of Astruc which is probably what lead to the ‘she is unredeemable’ from Astruc,the same could be said about Marinette who’s mom was inspired by an ex of Astruc he was dating during the 1st season which is becomes awkward when you realise that Marinette’s father is named ‘Tom’.
Ok I haven't watched any miraculous episodes since miracle queen because I really loved Chloe slowly getting redeemed and that being thrown out of the window made me stopped watching
SO WTF HAPPENED WITH NINO AND KIM?????
I really hate how Gabriel got "redeemed" despite being the catalyst for the entire series and putting the entire WORLD- if not just Paris- in danger, while Chloe became a social pariah, got stuck with an abusive parent and had her entire character assassinated, chewed up and spat out just because of Thomas Astruc's hate boner for her. Screw him.
The first two seasons of the show were fantastic, but what MLB became starting with season 3 is just awful. It's an example to me of what to NEVER, EVER do while writing a story, so I suppose I got *something* out of it... and it inspired me to work on my own Miraculous AU where she's a lot better and as Vespinator, plays the Shadow to Ladybug's Sonic. And if you know anything about Shadow? That should give you an idea of how Chloe in my AU will turn out.
Still, man oh man it hurt seeing what they did to Chloe. Girl just needs a hug.
I agree with you, not only because Chloé was my childhood fashion icon, but because she had great development until Thomas started to hate her. (note: and that ending with Gabriel being the hero from Paris, huh?🤢)
@@jijiontwionWhat's worse is umm. Marinette is responsible for Gabriel winning. Future is looking bleak for you Marinette. Gosh Adrien deserves better than her!
@@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaBunnydoll Marinette just needs some serious character development, in general. She's had some development in the fifth season but it really doesn't fix the bs that Thomas has caused
Gabriel wasn’t redeemed and Chloe wasn’t redeemed either
@@songoku7530 Of course, Gabriel is cosplaying as Queen Elizabeth right now (☠️), and what other way to compare a 13-14 year old TEENAGER who can change YES with the help of adults and therapists, to a gen@cidal person?
What Ruined Chloe was Thomas Astruc's writing. Plain and Simple. Chloe is a treasure trove of potential, being a neglected, emotionally abused and vulnerable child with actual depth and problems to her that could make for so many interesting stories, entire arcs could be made with her.
Yet Thomas decided instead to make her as horrible as possible out of spite for something he created, forcing fans to do the work for him in Fanfiction.
I don’t excuse her actions, but children living in that toxic environment is bad for their wellbeing. Astruc is heartless when he says Chloe is irredeemable. There are characters far irredeemable like Lila (or Cerise if the writers ever get their story straight) and Gabriel. I think what the writers should have done is teaching her how to be a better person even if she doesn’t have a miraculous. Have her slowly atone and struggle to ditch her bad behaviors, a relapse maybe but not Miracle Queen. And importantly find better parental figures in her life and give Audrey the biggest Reason you Suck speech she deserves. Like Chloe has potential, she shouldn’t be instantly forgiven. Just she needs to tone her sass and she could be a vital anti-hero.
Thomas really made those people say Chloe is a “lost cause” in that page. Why does he hate that girl so much? 😭😭😭 Now it makes me wonder if _he_ used to stalk women and sees it as okay and that’s why he’s making Marinette stalk Adrien with no consequences at all.
Apparently he hates her bc he based her off of his childhood bully...
If you want to write a good character maybe make sure you don't hate them...?
@@ktostam35 Fr, it feels so weird to hate a character you made so much that you ruin their development just so they can be unapologetically evil. If Chloé stayed evil then it probably would've been fine but why give character development to a character just to take it away.
Astruc really pointed at a 14 year old girl and said "this is a creature of irredeemable evil"
It always frustrated me that Marinette never takes reponsibility for the events of "Love Eater," nor does Tikki chide her for it after "Miracle Queen."
The first mistake that they made with Chloe's character redemption was her reconciliation with her mother at the end of Queen Wasp. Chloe didn't need to earn her mother's love by being more like her; Chloe's mother needed to love and accept her for who she was.
Let me make one thing clear: No child should have to earn their parent's love. That's why it's called unconditional love. There are no conditions, and no strings attached. It's not "If you do this then I will love you" or "I will love you as much as you do this thing as much." It is "I will love and cherish you, and do my best to guide you through life." Ironically, Felix said it best: "When you bring a living being into this world, you have a responsibility to towards them. Your duty is to protect them, love them, help them discover their own meaning to their existence."
Audrey Bourgeois failed her duty. She has always failed it, and she probably always will. So did Andre, and Gabriel. The show gave us this beautiful and real message through Felix, and failed to follow through by not only redeeming Andre and Gabriel, but demonizing Chloe.
The writers were correct about one thing: Chloe was doomed from the start.
She was doomed by them.
That's sort of why between the two, Andre *IS* the better parent despite him spoiling her and being a pushover. If anything, I'd rather have it just that they let it go that Andre and his wife were divorced and he was embarrassed by that which fed into his issues with raising Chloe because he didn't think he could do that AND be a politician and so thought spoiling her was the same thing as loving her. Chloe's QB arc and Andre becoming Malidictator could have been a moment for both learning to appreciate and love each other more but to also gain personal self confidence and value themselves as well. And you can see that in their Akumatized versions; Chloe as Queen Wasp wanted power but a sense of self and as Malidictator, Andre wanted wanted to feel like he was being taken seriously as a leader.
Of the three, Audrey is the worst because there is nothing redemable about her. At least with Chloe and Andre we get to see why they act the way they are but Audrey NEVER learns and with the whole Zoe thing, it's implying she CHEATED on him and then suddenly expect him to raise Zoe *TOO* while she also ignores her.
Yet Thomas wants us to think CHLOE is the bad one despite Audrey treating both her daughters and her husband like trash, possibly only valuing Andre for his money and political power. She never learns anything.
Thomas Astruc is an utter hack that really doesn't get story or characters. It's shown in not just how he treats Chloe, but also how nearly everyone else is either a moron or terrible person even if the narrative attempts to suggest otherwise. And our "heroes" are in no way better. In fact, they're the reasons why I quit the show in the first place.
Cat Noir honestly got better. Ladybug on the other hand? Umm ohh boy. She became worse.
This show wants to have its cake and eat it too. Meaning, as many have said before, it wants us to take this world and its characters seriously while also excusing any problems by claiming it's a kids show.
This hurts the world and its characters by not embracing one or the other. Trying to stay in an awkward middle ground only causes the story to be just as akward or worse.
What's wrong with the heroes now?
@@ethancox9737 allow me to explain: Marinnette is a creep who went from teasing chat noir to bullying him at times, Adrien literally attempted cheating on Kagami if I recall correctly (flirting with ladybug I mean) but correct me if I'm wrong.
Marinette is shown as perfect despite that and her crimes are brushed off with "it's a joke" "it's for a good cause" and later with "she has ptsd after Kim broke her heart" even tho her parents can definitely afford therapy for her that'd help her overcome it
Chat Noir isn't treated like a hero anymore too, he's usually left out of plot and fights, he gets his arse wooped while Ladybug gets other heros, he doesn't know abt anything the other heros know and than when he messes up bc of it they get angry at him, he's basically there only to flirt with Ladybug at this point, his flaws are just ignored, his one sided love is shown as Ladybug being mean sometimes even tho he's the one that should just let go.
That's all I observed at least
@@ktostam35 Yeah, that is pretty fudged up!
I think if you rewrite Season 3 to just have Chloe kicked off the team for another reason you could have Chloe side with Monarch in Season 5 due to her worry about Pollen. You could then have her hate Ladybug (and to a lesser extent Chat Noir) for Ladybug “letting” Pollen be captured by Monarch. You could just have Chloe be mostly absent for Season 4.
Yeah lol, both her and Lila disappear all of season 4 and when they become relevant again next season, all hell breaks loose
You could also go in an interesting direction where Marinette kicks Chloe off the team due to her own lapse in judgement, only to later realize that she messed up badly leading to her actually *trying* to make things right.
Hell you could even have chloe betray monarch like felix did in order to save pollen
Chloe’s character really is a determent for a children’s show. There’s no point to having her be the 3rd place villain in the last season when Lila could have easily taken her place. Imagine Lila making her an outcast at school. Marinette seeing herself in Chloe and helping her make actual friends. Some little kids are spoiled and mean but can learn from tv shows how to be nice. Often times they don’t recognize their behavior and I fear that by making Chloe into an actual villain will stop kids from reflecting on themselves because their not like that. It’s also important to teach kids that often times people lash out because of bad situations, and while you should still have boundaries maybe you should reach out.
Exactly!
I did a mini Miraculous rewrite a few weeks ago, and in my concept I had Chloe get a redemption arc similar to Zuko. At first she has to regain the respect of her classmates, and she does, and it really does look like she's evolving. But then her mom comes to Paris and Chloe does everything in her power to gain her approval, but doing so hurts her so much mentally that she gets akumatized. It would be a very similar akumatization like Cat Noir's in Cat Blanc, where she'd just be a husk of the person that once was there, and is a puppet to Hawkmoth.
After this episode, I would have Luka be the one to kick-start Chloe's next arc, which would focus on her embracing the other people around her, and loving being a hero and have a genuine passion for saving Paris.
Great vid btw.
Thanks so much! I love your rewrite! You’ve got some good ideas! 😊
Do you have a link to the rewrite? I’d love to read it.
@@WouldntWeather I haven't gone in-depth yet. It's mostly just a mind map at the moment.
@@dangerbuffrocky Ahh. Well, I like the idea!
Me too! 😊
If things were different, Chloé could've stayed on the good side and been that one teammate that's a contrarian and prideful, but still a good person. On the other hand, they could've made her more of an anti-villain, like she works for Monarch, but she has lines she won't cross. Plus she has people she cares about (Zoé, Sabrina, Adrien), so she eventually reforms. Anything that separates Chloé from Lila.
That would make Chloé different to Lila while also humanising her. Thanks for sharing. ☺️
@@ACriticalRetrospective "That would make Chloé different to Lila while also humanizing her."
Exactly why the writers would never do it. We can't *possibly* have a main character overshadowed by another member of the cast, can we?
Chloe is beyond redemption But her CORRUPT FATHER, the reason shes spoiled and Brat is not?! Yeah okay
and then theres the MOTHER
@tonyflynn1801 the fact that Chloe was sent off with that abusive woman is Sadder the more I think about it
@@muriok2474 Future writers are probably going to use this show as an example of what not to do.
@@JuniorGustabo as an aspiring writer myself, I can confirm that this is in fact true.
And on the other hand, Gabriel, who was SHOWN to be irredeemable, gets a redemption arc. They go all lazy writing and end up having a terrible message for children.
Thomas Astruc is so adamant about Chloe being such a horrible person when Gabriel actually committed much worse atrocities than Chloe did. And then we have Zoe, is basically just exists for the sole purpose of replacing Chloe as the holder of the Bee Miraculous. And it's obvious that Thomas Astruc wants to make Chloe the bad guy, to the point where he'll turn her into a monster just to prove his point, when Chloe never really had any incentive to in Season 1. We don't even know where the whole "cockroach locker" thing even came from!!! It feels so out of the blue to bring up Chloe's horrible actions in the past, when Season 1 Chloe shows jer to be much more tame in comparison.
Derision really did break the timeline, didn’t it. 🤣
@@ACriticalRetrospective and I often assume Chloe being a douchebag was a defense mechanism of hers because it was all she ever knew. Even when she does try to help, no one accepts it. And I don't think Ladybug wanted to get rid of Chloe because of her exposed identity (as seen when she used Ryoko, who also exposed her identity as Kagami, which feels really shallow, because Ladybug could have just chosen someone else that didn't have their identity exposed, if only to soften the blow of betrayal), but rather, Marinette, who happens to be Ladybug, holds some sort of grudge or vendetta against her because of the times where Chloe harassed her back when Marinette was younger. I'd like to believe that Chloe may have realized "Oh God, I actually hurt someone!" and decided to dial back her meanness, which could explain why she's so tame in Season 1 compared to the later seasons. She must have discovered that her actions can actually hurt people, and she probably feels heavy remorse for it, but she can't show it because of her defense mechanism. It goes to show that hurt people do in fact hurt people. And that two wrongs don't make a right. Even if Thomas Astruc says otherwise, it should be worth noting that Marinette would be no better than Chloe in terms of how unfairly she treated her as Queen Bee.
@@nevaehhamilton3493 That’s a great reason for why Derision is so disconnected from everything else! 😊
Thanks for sharing. 😁
If one speculates that the original "redemption" plot was likely Lila or a evil version of Zoe putting roaches in Chloe's locker and her finally realising that is a bad situation (they instead transposed that to Zoe in America) you can see the parallel in Zoe's speach to Andre it seems to obvious it is actually written as a reconciliation speech between Chloe and her Father and then later one Andre would have divorced Audrey and promised to be a proper father to Chloe, there is also some small hints very early on that Chloe is a talented Photographer and would have thus helped her father in his return to film making and the two would have got much closer.
Instead they re-wrote the whole thing ditched Evil Zoe and stuck all Chloe plots onto Zoe (including her gay awakening plot) and Chleo got lumbered with Lila plots.. which is why Chloe is in places it makes no sense for her to be. but makes perfect sense for Lila to be.
Not only that they also harmed Lila by removing a dehumanising aspect of her character and maybe even took out a possible love triangle with Felix and Kagami and Lila.. which is one reason why Lila is weirdly trying to get close to Kagami. Basically they wrote season 4 and 5 and then re-wrote it all and didn't do a very good job in the process as they mostly just shifted people around. I think some other plots were shoved far into the future too (like Marinette's Mom finding out she's ladybug) or Lila trying to ingratiate herself with Sabine that has instead been moved over to Cerise / Iris.
I also suspect they planned to write Teen Bunnyx out entirely too. & then changed their mind and put her back in again. But that is why her identity was outed that was supposed to show she had no-way home and we likely wouldn't have ever seen teen Alix ever again.
I suspect they returned her so as to not prove her Brother as being correct about Ladybug taking his sister away from them.
So yeah if you want to know what Chloes redemption was like simple just look at Zoe's.
The writing for this show is a joke.
The thing about Chloe in my opinion is that her "unredemption" could have been better (unredemption probably isn't a word but it's the best I Got). For starters while I believe if you give people the chance, they can be good, some people are just jerks; from past videos essays I've seen that show tweets from Mr. Astruc that was his intention, not everyone can become nice, which is true and it's his show he can do whatever he wants, but the thing is he already has a character like that, Lila/cerise/whatever her name is, she has shown NO signs of wanting to change (unlike Chloe), every chance she gets she turns it down (unlike Chlo- er sort of), and has felt no remorse for what she has done (more or less unlike Chloe). Second even in season 1 Chloe has shown she's not a complete monster, cosplaying as Ladybug with Sabrina hugging her dad when Ladybug helps her out of the Lady-wifi and Stoneheart incident, even in season 3 when she defended Sabrina from the scarlet akumas. Maybe the sudden personality change will get explained in season 6.
Одри Буржуа кольцо потерла?😮
Exactly, show that some people can’t change with Lilia not Chloé
honestly I think that Miracle Queen did ruin Chloe's character but not as badly as everyone thinks
yes she joined the villains at the end of that season but only because she was not emotionally mature enough to understand that by having the bee miraculous she was putting everyone she knew in danger of being akumatized (which happened to Sabrina in Miraculer and her parents in Hearthunter)
I think Queen Banana and Penalteam ruined her character arc the most because they could have used this season as a redemption arc for her but instead they introduce Zoe as the new version of her and the new holder of the bee miraculous and just spend the rest of season four and all but two or three episodes of season five just showing all the negative qualities of her character with no hope of redemption and everyone (including Adrien who had been her long time friend) just giving up on Chloe entirely
I agree with you. 😊
To be fair, there was still potential for Chloé after Miracle Queen. The writers just killed her nuance in Season 4 and 5.
Thanks so much for sharing! I really appreciate it.😊
@@ACriticalRetrospective I binged the seasons on Disney+ at least twice and Chloe had the potential with her character but the writers ruined it and they had chance after chance to fix their mistakes and it was frustrating to watch as their message was essentially people like Chloe don't deserve redemption... despite them giving her that (somewhat) during the second season
also I had this saved to my watch later list and I was excited to hear this video since I love the show and I was happy to hear you hit essentially every point that I was constantly thinking of
I’m happy you liked it. 😊
Stay tuned for my Season 5 ranking video!
Huh, disagreed. It was really disappointing to see Chloé take that way after she just fought off an Akuma. It ruinded 96% of her character, S4 and onwards just killed her more.
*SPOILERS FOR SEASON 6*
Chloé will die in S6, and I'm sure that the writers will bring her back, because Thomas needs Chloé for the show to continue, and I mean, Chloé is the reason of most of the Akumatizations are caused. And the show would be boring without her.
Is Chloé going to die? I’m pretty sure that’s a fake leak. At least I hope so. 😅
9:54 Actually, this scene is even sadder than that. At that time she was new Miraculous user, a child and she already used her power. This means that she could transform back at any moment, and if that happened she'd no doubt would be driven over by the train. She was willing to risk her own life for approval.
I never thought about that! That's terrible. Poor Chloe.
@@ACriticalRetrospective I agree... Definitely my favorite character in this show.
Mommy issue's at it finest!!!
chloe: epitome of character assassination
Definitely. 😔
Personally, I never liked Chloe. I thought that she was pretty insufferable in season one and wasn't excited about them building up to her redemption in season two. Giving characters more layers and depth can obviously be good and there's definitely a lot of good in showing the audience that people can change, but I just never thought her personality was interesting, even when she started to change. That being said, they still handled this pretty poorly when they did a complete 180 on Chloe's personality, so I can't really blame fans for getting upset, especially when they were more invested in Chloe's arc than I was.
"What ruined Chloé Bourgeois?"
Thomas Astruc. I don't need to watch a 30 minute video to figure that out.
Fair enough. Thanks for commenting, at least. 😊
It kinda feels like whether or not Chloe would be good came down to an actual coin toss. I can legit see how it went.
Writer 1: ok so you want Chloe to be a good guy?
Writer 2; hey she started out as a bully and became a superhero. If Marvel can do it, so can we.
Writer 1: well, I got another idea for how we handle Chloe, so here’s how we handle this. *takes out a coin* Heads, she becomes a good guy by the end of the Agreste arc. Tails, it’s back to square one.
*he flips the coin. It lands on tails*
Writer 2: crap.
Writer 1; welp, I win. Say goodbye to Queen Bee.
That’s really funny! 😆
I wonder if that actually happened…
@@ACriticalRetrospective feels like it. Although I do like Zoe's character.
All this shows me is that sometimes the reason a person stays bad is because no one gives them a chance to be good
It is important to note that Thomas Astruc made Marinette in "image"? of his childhood crush which should explain why she is allowed to do creepy things like creeping into adriens room and sniff his pillow. On the other hand Chloe was made in image of thomas's childhood bully. The chloe episodes in first two seasons largely didnt include thomas. It was a different writer managing her character and he wanted her to have a redemption arc but thomas finally got hand of chloe character in season 3 and ruined it cuz he hated her as he made her in image of his childhood bully in the first place. you can check most of episodes where chloe get rependtion arc and good deverlopment dont include thomas as writer in credits but episodes where her character is bucthered does contain thomas as a writer in epidoes credits.
I believe the writer that was initially handling her character doesnt work with them anymore but Zag also wanted chloe to have a redemption arc which is why the writer took her character in that dierection in the forst place.
Basically thomas is a man child who also more or less said on twitter that if you like chloe you are a bad person and comparing chloe fans to abuse supporters???? yes he did that.
Thomas effectively divided his shows fan base in half by doing this. This is where the fandom actually broke back then if anyone remembers. Thomas thinks hes a good writer but hes not, hes just egotistical thats all. lets not forget how he basically said that his show introduced more superheros than the pixars industry in the last decade or so.. telling teh pixar owner or someone to check out his show in a very demeaning way.
The pixar man did reply to thomas cuz obviosuly thomas aint jack shit but the audacity of this man.
The write of this series writes Marinette as a Mary Sue. And when the guy writes in his opinion "weak or vad female characters" they are actually very good female characters.
The pool episode, in my opinion, only made it seem like Kim was an a-hole instead of Chloe.
Like besides the obvious, Chloe might have been the one to come up with the idea. But Kim could've easily realized that the "prank" would put Marinette in danger if she freaked out.
Like yeah, you can make dumb characters who like pranking people. But at least let them have enough empathy to understand that there's a chance things could hurt the people they prank 😅
That’s true. Kim’s naïveté has really been exaggerated in later seasons.
Season 1 Kim would have never pulled a stunt like this.
I don't think Chloe told Kim to give a box of Spiders to someone while they are standing on a diving board.
At least not explicitly so.
@@90lancaster chloe is that mean though so I'm 99% sure it was her idea
@@ACriticalRetrospectiveTrue. Honestly Derision in my humble opinion is. A retcon. A really really bad retcon.
@@eeveefennecfox Also isn't Kim afraid of Spiders himself so it is another layer of retcon to have him do that.
To be honest I couldn't ever buy Chloe crawling through ceiling crawl spaces or handling roaches either - that is beneath her.
29:13 - I think the problem the writers ran into with Lila being a depiction of "someone who refuses to change" is that they leaned SO hard on the "lying" aspect of her character that they ended up turning her into someone who was lying about everything concerning who they are, and who was already a supervillain from the word go. Therefore, the "refuses to change" thing doesn't really work given that she already started off at her worst. Thus they turned to Chloe, who wasn't a supervillain and was even a superhero, meaning it'd be more powerful to show her refusing to change, become worse and go from superhero to supervillain. Unfortunately, they muddled this completely by doing things like retconning her character like in the Season 5 swimming pool flashback. You can't appreciate Chloe "getting worse" when the show is also claiming she was always like this. It's the exact same issue as with Lila, so what was it even for?
I’d like to propose a better solution….give the lesson that “people don’t change” to Hawkmoth himself. Have him go from a person who’s trying to do some bad things for what he thinks is a net positive and spiral into this power hungry person who lost sight of his main goal because he got foils by the heroes constantly and because of his grief for his wife.
That way the lesson works AND we don’t run the risk of demonizing literal minors-
@@redballoon9007 The problem is the movie worked out that problem with Gabriel and did it wonderfully. The problem with Ladybug as a whole is that it doesn't know how to do villains because at this point, they laid way too many steps in trying to make these characters seem 'well rounded' but I don't really understand if Thomas gets it or if he's only doing this stuff beecause he thinks he's a master of drama which he ISN'T.
The reason I don't hate Gabriel is thanks in part to the same reason that season 2 was building up Chloe; they were writing that both the characters were trying to change. One of the best moments of season 2 is Gabriel returning to normal but sitting utterly defeated in his chair while Natalie comes in to comfort him. In that moment, we see Gabriel as he actually is; a tired man who has no goal in sight and doesn't know what he wants but has *TWO* people around him who care (Adrien and Natalie). It looked like it was the start of Gabriel finally letting go, especially with the whole drop that there would possibly be 'another Hawkmoth in the future' which could also mean that Gabriel would finally stop being Hawkmoth and someone else would pick it up.
THAT LAST FOR LIKE TWO BLEEDING SECONDS and whoops! Gabriel is a jerk again and so is Chloe! But don't worry! We won't forget to have Gabriel go off the deep end so much that he essentially self deletes himself to be with his wife, leaving Adrian without parents because apparently redemption also means going off the deep end but it's ROMANTIC! THAT MEANS IT'S GOOD!
Does Thomas seriously just want to write a crappy weeb romance story? A REALLY crappy one? Because that's what all of this feels like.
Honestly, as much of an abomination of a character Chloe is, I just want to give her a hug. She got so screwed it’s just really sad to see. She’s just so tragic and there is a good character under all that filth Astric piled onto her.
I really agree with you. 😊
The og writer ruined her.
She will get it in the 2nd Movie since Jeremy is making things right and Chloé got the Nicole Bristow Treatment i.e. meaning Thomas can't bring her back anymore
I really hope so. Come on, Jeremy. We believe in you! 😂
@@ACriticalRetrospective 25:57 Thanks for using my video on GN Plus.
It’s okay. I’ll credit you in the description if you want. 😊
Honestly I will say this without question, Miracle Queen was an AWESOME season finale and I will say it should have been a massive part of Chloe's redemption if it wasn't absolutely ruined, she always was a flawed character and her betrayal would've been an awesome place for Ladybug to try and be more connected to Chloe as a person instead of just focusing on Chloe's negative traits
But instead she was 'unredeemable' monster because she is like 15 and the creator is a literal man child
I mean seriously so many characters can have such awesome character development or awesome character arcs
BUT THEY GET RUINED FOR LITERALLY NO REASON, I swear Thomas Astruc or whoever is making these decisions NEEDS to be removed from the writing team before they destroy this series
And look, Thomas Astruc wasn't even involved in the Season 2, and that's why the writers would give it some redemption. But Astruc came back and ended all development, making the show horrible and leaving Marinette/Ladybug worse off than she was.
I have a theory: Remember how we get an evil version of ladybug and chat noir? I think at some point in the show, we started watching the corrupted timeline and they are going to show us a dichotomy between the "correct" timeline and the bad one that is hurtling towards a soap opera.
Alternate theory: All of those alternate timelines and fake-outs for Adrienette (and it's various other names) and hawkmoth reveals, had a negative effect on the timeline and its people.
Alternate alternate theory: Some unakumatized villain or other miraculous holder or something is affecting these characters and making them spiral out of control for some villainous plot to prevent them from having the ability to stop them.
Alternate alternate alternate theory: This is all a crazy dream and the only way to wake up is to realize it's a dream, like that one time in Tangled the Series, but on a much larger scale. At the end of dreams, things make less and less sense, or this fake world is collapsing under the improbability of itself, or someone is trying to alert our main characters of the fact that something isn't right with the world.
Alternate alternate alternate sub-theory: Marinette is in some CRAZY dream and in order to ensure that she doesn't realize it and wake up, they are creating reasons and fears to keep her compliant and unaware like in the Truman Show.
Some sort of Bunnix plotline will fix this. No matter what theory we go with. (Except maybe the dream theories, but that will be a different miraculous holder (and maybe Bunnix)).
If this does not become canon, I request a fanfiction or multiple fanfictions of these ideas or something like it. Please link said fanfictions (OR FANARTS) in the replies to this comment.
That’s a lot of theories! ☺️
I liked the one about the fake dream world like in Tangled The Series. I saw that episode ( Rapunzeltopia ) and really liked it.
Thanks for sharing. 😊
Honestly I 100% believe Chloe was either based on a girl who bullied Thomas or based on a girl who rejected him because their's no way someone can hate a character they made that much.
Seeing Chloe have a redemption arc would have made the show much more interesting. She had so much potential before the third season, and just seeing her character go to waste and become an exact replica of Lila is really disappointing, as there could have been so much done with her character. I’d say season 2 is the best mlb season partially because of the slight redemption arc she got. She was such an interesting character there and I’m really disappointed we didn’t get more of her like that. She was a well rounded character in that season. Unfortunately, due to season three absolutely butchering the redemption arc we could have had and the creator stating that she is irredeemable, I’d say that in a sense she’s more one-dimensional than she was in season 1.
Frankly I'd have rewritten things about after Style Queen where Chloe starts behaving differently. She doesn't make up with her mother who simply leaves for New York, and Chloe is forced to realize that her mother is indeed a truly horrible person and that by extension she ruined her own reputation and any chance at positive relationships by trying to be like her. This in turn sends Chloe on a downward spiral of negativity that Hawkmoth sets about trying to exploit.
Rather than Akumatize her right away, he controls events behind the scenes, making Chloe more and more miserable and angry, chipping away at her will until Chloe is so angry and depressed she's Akumatized almost instantly and becomes insanely powerful to where even Hawkmoth can't control her and she starts attacking the people she's angry at namely her Father for not having enough of a spine to stand up to her mother, Marinette more out of jealousy that Marinette has everything she ever wanted, friends, caring parents and just being an exceptional person and finally her mother, lashing out verbally and phyiscally, roaring and screaming at her at how horrible of a person and mother she was and how Chloe ruined her own life just to try and get her to love her.
Ladybug and Chat Noir would arrive and try to fight Chloe but she's so powerful they can't, so instead they try to help her by talking to her. Saying they understand how much pain she's in right now and that they sympathize with what's happened to her, Chloe herself crying and roaring that she's nothing but a monster now and doomed to be alone forever, but Ladybug and Chat Nori promise that she doesn't have to be alone and Chloe is able to break free from Hawkmoth's control.
Chloe then disowns her mother and starts making attempts to be a better person, perhaps even discovering she's actually got a crush on Marinette rather than hating her or something.
We stan Saphhic!Chloe in this house hold-
I headcanon that's why she so mean to her she likes her and hates it!!!
If you want more moments in Season 3- She, for a blink and you’ll miss it frame, was protecting Sabrina from the onslaught of akumas in “Ladybug” and in “Felix” she had a heart felt moment when wishing Adrien a happy birthday.
And if you want to count “Love Eater” she VERY arguably made a sacrifice by joining Hawkmoth in exchange for the freedom of her parents (along with the bee miraculous)
ALSO: I can’t help but notice that you skimmed over the fact that Chloe saved Ladybug from being cataclysmed in Despair Bear. This was the scene that make people believe that Chloe was more than a bully in the first place-
I think what is worse is how Thomas worded it, the way he made it seem as if Chloe left Ladybug like Chloe turned from the side of good. When Ladybug was then who turned her back on Chloe, The hero ditched her!
Chloe just wanted to save her parent but Ladybug said no because Hawkmoth would know it was Chloe even though there was plenty of ways to fix the situation, Chloe Could have gotten a new costume and come up with a different name.( something Marinette does for Alya).
But what's even worse was chloe never left on her own accord remember hawkmoth was Causing the situation in the first place. It’s like saying that this bad person was becoming good but what's this got threatened to join the enemy side or watch their parents going on a murderous rampage around Paris?
Clearly, chloe was the one in the wrong here and not Hawkmoth who manipulated & caused the situation. not Ladybug who literally could have given her any other miraculous or you know have her change outfit or check on the clearly emotionally distraught girl who was really concerned with her parents. You know the girl Hawkmoth is constantly going after in the first place???.Even when Astruc tried to write chloe betrayal she still logically made sense and was sympathetic.
It's so frustrating how so much of the problems with Chloe could have been solved if Mari treated her like a person and TALKED TO HER about the Queen Bee situation instead of ignoring her. Prior to the Flanderization in how Chloe acts and Zoe coming in, Chloe was 100% justified in feeling betrayed because she WAS ignored.
Chloe deserves another chance to return to the good guys in future seasons.
It would be interesting to see Chloe in a better show like Infinity Train, Amphibia, Mob Psycho 100, Over The Garden Wall or BoJack Horseman.
Not as long as Thomas Astruc is overseeing the future seasons and has a say.
@@JuniorGustabo exactly! Chloe and alot of other characters deserve to be on a show that treats them with nuance instead dumbing them down into exaggerated stereotypes.
No she doesn’t
@@songoku7530I think as a person, she really just deserves therapy and a better family.
But in regards to her character. Yeah, she deserved so much more than what the show gave her. Fortunately, we still have the movies to look foward to.
I hope we get a season as consistently great at season 2 again. Maybe that’ll be season 6?
I hope so!
the fact you're so grateful for 10 subscribers genuinely warms my heart. a lot of creators don't usually thank their subscribers for small milestones but the fact you took your time to do so makes a big difference in the way your viewers perceive you. i wonder how you feel with 1k new subscribers in under 2 months :)
It’s absolutely unbelievable. I am so grateful to each and every one of you. You made this possible, not me. 😊
I love Chloe and I still do 😭 they won’t make me hate her
I commend that resilience of yours. 😊
@@ACriticalRetrospective it’s so obvious what they are doing. idk I just feel like Chloe is very out spoken she is only vulnerable with her mom and then when ladybug came she was the only other person she confined in so when ladybug turned her back on her she really lost it. and the whole identity thing is a cop out when Alya + other hero’s identity was compromised. The fans trying to use she betrayed ladybug while Felix gave that man almost all the miraculous and faces no consequences if she doesn’t come back in s6 and get a better chance I’m done bc she was the only one who kept this show interesting 😭 they ruined it by making her bad
@@iovelusion That’s true. If Felix was redeemed, why not Chloé?
I think her mother being there was being a bad influence on her. Chloe trusted Ladybug, but when she needed her help she felt betrayed. Gabriel used that spark of hate to manipulate her ego that she is entitled.
Chloe has deep animosity for Marinette, because she knows she's a threat to her. She's a good girl, and Chloe can tell she may take the lime light from her.
The redemption may happen again for her once she feels the weight of all her misdeeds and understand that the world doesn't revolve around her. Once she finally hits rock bottom; not having Sabrina be her loyal dog; and be in Marinette's shoes and actually self reflect about her actions.
I feel like once the other potential Miraculous TV series are actually aired, maybe Chloe will appear as a character. Her story may continue there, where she is either miserable with no friends or a fresh start.
Great video! I'm not even a Chloe fan but Chloe deserves better. Thomas Astruck ruined Chloe's character.
Thanks so much! I hope you stick around for future videos, I’ve got some great stuff planned. 😊
I get what they were going for with Chloe's character and i personally was actually not bothered by season 3 as from my perspective... up to that point Chloe was not really a great person still, in the season 2 finale he still bullied Marinette and was mean, she was starting to change, but she was not really all there yet, so her betrayal made sense to me as she still acted very entitled and bratty by that point but i also felt like she was justified in her anger at Ladybug (not how she handled it, but what she felt) as Ladybug seemed to be playing favorites and leaving her behind in her eyes (the latter being very traumatic for her probably because of her mother's neglect) after she opened up to her and has always been willing to help her throughout late season 2 and all of season 3, Ladybug promised her she could be more than just a spoiled brat, that she could serve a purpouse and be useful, that she could make up for all the messes she keeps causing and maybe make people actually like her and see beyond her arrogant, mean and entitled front because that is not all there is to her, Chloe is not an evil villain, she is a broken kid who does not know how to be any other way as one of her parents is neglectful and verbally abusive and the other is a doormat who panders to her every want and need, so Chloe does not know how to be nice as we see in Despair Bear but she genuinely loves some people like Sabrina, her family, Adrien and Miss Bustier and wants them to like her and shows remorse for her actions when it affects them. For Chloe it's like Ladybug forgot all about her hidden good side and how they bonded in season 2 and she does not understand why as she has always supported Ladybug, but what Chloe also does not understand yet is that she does not need to be Queen Bee to be good and redeem herself and serve a purpouse beyond what she seems to be, people would like her if she was a hero without a costume or powers, she is just so stuck in the mindset that she can't show her weaknesses and that she has to be like her mother in order to get her to stay and show her the love and affection she is do deprived of, she can't move on from this mindset so she only understands and learns what is convinient for her, cause she is just a child who wants her mom to stay now that she has her back so she keeps deluding herself into thinking this is the way she will stay with her, if Marinette had not convinced Audrey to stay with Chloe then she probably would have changed, but Chloe still has that toxic woman in her life and sees her as a role model. It is actually so sad and mskes me sympathize with her and understand her betrayal in season 3, she got her feelings hurt and Hawkmoth manipulsted her into acting out on her insecurities and used her for his own goals and she goes back to acting like a brat by the end of the eoisode cause she is desperate and heartbroken, by this point i thiught she had hit rock bottom... little did i know...
The thing is though... i expected Chloe to be truly and fully redeemed after this and learn from her mistakes snd maybe even sppear as Queen Bee one last time eventually, i never saw her as a lodt cause and expected her to become a hero again... but seasons 4 snd 5 ruined her character and made hef the most useless villain in the show after completely flanderizing her, it's like everything good about her is gone and now we are supossed to believe she is evil incarnate... a 14 year old girl is satan??? WTF and not to mention they introduced Zoe, a completely useless one dimensional charactee that tbh is not even a character, she just exists to make Chloe look bad and to take her place in the team. And then ofc we have to come up with the dumbest plots for episodes to make her the villain of the week like in Queen Banana and Penalteam... great... totally does not feel like Thomas is biased against her... her eoidodes are judt written out of spite, THEY EVEN MAKE FUCKING FLASHBACK EPISODES THAT MAKE HER OUT TO BE WAY WORSE THAN SHE REALLY WAS FFS. And then it all ends with the bad moral of apparently bullies deserving to be avused by their abusive parents even if tgey are that way cause of said sbusive parent... and the other parent just does not have to take responsibility FOR THIS 14 YEAR OLD KID and can just replace her with another girl she likes better... oof... that is just... no.
Chloe was by far the best character in the show at one ppint but Thomas' hate for her ruined her writing and like i doubt her character arc was evennplanned to end up this way from the start... Thomas is the only person working in the show i see who very vocally hates Chloe, hasn't Jeremy even ssid Chloe has a good heart before? Something feels reslly off sbout this...
It’s sabotage
Wow! Huge respect to Cyrus. But you totally deserve it!
If marinette is so concerned with Hawkmoth knowing Chloes identity why does she conrtinue to give miraculous to Alya Nino Kagami Luka Max and Kim who have all been found out by Hawkmoth in season 3
Why doesnt she give chloe a different miraculous like the tiger or the ox with the condition that she not reveal her identity so that chloe can still be on the super hero team and queen bee is no more
I wish they hadn't messed up Chloe's arc. A better story would have been Chloe realizing her parents suck, and like Adrien, she uses the bee miraculous to escape her crappy home life, and that learn she doesn't have to be like them. I have my own rewrite where Chloe isn't necessarily a bully,but instead she's more of an introvert due to her parents' neglect, with a hint of a sarcastic side and calls things out as she sees. Hence, her words could be taken the wrong way, and be seen as offensive. For example, in my rewrite, Chloe is a new kid that Lila insults. And Lila spreads rumors that Chloe is a bully when she refuses Lila's friendship and because Lila is popular and pretends to be nice, everyone believes her. Except Marinette, who of course knows Lila is a bully. Better than canon Chloe, because her character in the later seasons felt so forced and unrealistic. True, she was the mayor's daughter, but in reality there's no way she could have gotten away with the stuff she did.
Honestly I was so disappointed when they didn't let Chloe have her redemption arc, she would have been a much more interesting character. In my opinion I think she's a much better holder of the bee miraculous than Zoe, it's so upsetting to see her just become a copy and paste of Lila.
Also, I can't believe your channel is so underrated! This was such an amazing analysis, I'm absolutely watching your other videos. I can't wait to see more of them, hopefully you get more deserved recognition along the way 😊
Thanks so much! That’s incredibly kind of you. I hope this channel grows as well. Tell everyone you know about this channel. That should help the channel grow even more. ☺️
My little theory is that maybe Chloe's character was based on one of Astruc's bullies (if he actually was bullied, I don't know anything about it, that idea just came to my mind randomly)
That's just my thought on the matter, because I can't understand why Astruc hates Chloe so much, like there has to be a reason for it
Its actually been a pretty common thery amoung the fanbase and hoestly I think there might be some legit truth to it unfourntley
For people who want the story short:
Thomas Astruc had a bully who’s name was ‘Chloe’. During the writing of Season 3, someone else was taking the helm of writing Chloe to be a character. But Thomas hated Chloe so he regressed the character.
So I think we all know what or in this case _who_ ruined Chloe.
... ... just disobey thomas and just... make this project, even if that cost your job
the way his "backstory" is just a bland excuse to make her unlikable, which makes him even more worse.
i'm getting piece by piece of how screw up this person is. making a parody of a bully and just that feels wrong.
12:12 I gotta say this moment was ironically comedic due to this scene feeling like a disappointed parent confronting their child. It feels genuine.
It would have been so easy to have lila be miracle queen. She spent all season gaining gabriels trust and being a threat. Then introduce a new character in season 4, not necessarily mean, but definitely manipulable. Have them get swayed by and manipulated by lila into essentially playing the role chloe did in season 5. This is just a low effort rewrite that keeps the main story intact without assassinating a character. not perfect but shows how simple it is.
Honestly, they could've still kept Zoe had her be the "manipulatible" new character lila tricks. It might even allow Zoe to stand out as a character and do more in the actual show.
Maybe Zoe seeks new friends so hard because she has few abd doesn't get the approval of her mother that lila befriends her and uses her against the others because she's new and knows even less about lila's shady behavior.
And chloe could showcase her growth by slowly convincing Zoe that lila is manipulating her and being a protective sister, and knowing what it's like to follow bad people in a desperate bid for love and attention.
See, now we improved Zoe as a character as well, and gave her a more fulfilling role in the cast.
If he was consistent in his beliefs, I would accept her fall. If EVERY other bully suffered too, I would see his point, 'cause you're not forced to forgive your bullies. But redeem Tsurugi, Agreste, Kim and Sabrina ? No Astruc. YOU'RE the bully !
Isn't there also the part where Chloe is based off of Astruc's childhood bully, and Season 2 had completely different writers from the rest of it?
Is that true about the childhood bully? I’m pretty sure that Season 2 was written by someone else, but I’m not really sure. Feel free to let me know.
That might explain why season 2 is considered the best one out of all of them
fews years back on reddit there was lots of discussion about two differences of opinion in the writing room for Miraculous. Team Zag was leaning towards a possible Chloe redemption and team Astruc with well we all know how he feels. Zag went off to focus on the Ladybug and Cat Noir movie and Astruc's opinion won the day in the writing room as well as him getting lead writing credits on more episodes.Thats why you start seeing a change of writing style during season 3.
There were enough threads discussing this back in the day there may be a grain of truth to it and because of the change of writing you won't convince me that season 5 ending was planned out years in advance. They might have had the rough draft but episodes totally seem tacked together in response the fans comments.
@@ACriticalRetrospective this comment is telling the truth, I've been a part of the fandom since season one (for over 5 years) and season 2 was in fact written when thomas wasn't part of the writing team. You can check the writing credits for those episodes for proof. The lead writer on the chloe redemption episodes also left the show after season 2. Chloe being based on a childhood bully of thomas's is also true, he confirmed it in old tweets
@@user-pi8pi3wj7h#ASTRUCSUCK!
yeah a perfect summation of how an author can ruin their own work
the butchering of Chloe's character means episodes had to be wasted on retcons and revisions which undervalue both her and everyone around her that "knew" of her revisions and said nothing
worse in the shadybug special where somehow that Chloe is ALSO evil for no reason, its so asinine
Everytime I think about Chloé and Thomas, I remember a scene in Hbomberguys video about plaigarism: "What Teenage girl did this to you in high school James? And why are you writing Fan fiction about her, instead of going to therapy?"
Also chloe used to be my favorite character she still is but I miss the old chloe
I miss the old Chloe also😞.
I can’t remember what episode it was but matinette told tikki “if being ladybug made me a better marinette then being queen bee will make her a better Chloe” and she was right if anything even for a little Cyrus said it best “make her 70% good and everything else for more growth” they could have given us more details about Chloe and Adrien relationship or I don’t know maybe an episode in the beginning of season 3 where Chloe was snooping around because her parents where talking about something important and it’s about Audrey affairs along with having another child make about Adrien and Chloe bonding together trying to understand things about this mysterious sister she has that way both the characters that know Chloe and the audience aren’t scratching their heads wonder who this girl is if anything I think Chloe and Zoe should have been able to share the bee miraculous have Chloe be queen bee while Zoe charm bee she a kid she going to trip and fumble with understanding emotions that are positive since she didn’t really grow up with a good parental figure and on top of that Gabriel and Andre get redemption arcs??? Excuse me these are grown men the artistic aloubell in one of her videos “why are we treating her as if she unredeemable but Gabriel is?”
I feel like there's a way to have Chloe go through everything in Miracle Queen and S4 without regressing her character, but S5 regressed her too far to the point I was honestly happy she was written out because I was just tired of the writers doubling down. Like, man what a fall off
Frankly Chloe is more of a drama queen than a bully, always drawing attention to herself because she doesn't like to be alone.
Too bad she ended up being Lila and Grabiel's puppet, and no one seems to notice or care about that.
A quote from a different movie that suits Chloe, with the character obviously, at least in the early seasons “Deep down, Chloe is a good person. She just needs help remembering it /showing it.”
What movie is that from?
@@ACriticalRetrospectiveBarbie and Skipper: The Big Babysitting Adventure. When I heard that quote and saw a few stuff about Chloe, I thought it fit because we see Chloe can be a good person with some guidance. Plus if she truly was irredeemable, she wouldn’t have returned the miraculous after being gently encouraged and apologized for her actions. Plus after Ladybug lightly probed her, she admitted that she was responsible for causing her dad to be akumatized and expressed her feelings about her life
Miraculous Ladybug... The only show that says an abused child can't be redeemed, but a sociopathic supervillain who abuses his son CAN be redeemed!
This is why i decided to give Chloé the redemption arc she deserves.
Me also🙂.
Great analysis commentary video!! I subscribed :) I definitely agree that they did Chloe so wrong, the writers actually managed to make me 'hate' her in S5 😔 But S2 Chloe will alway hold a special place in my heartt. I also ate my tacos while watching this haha
Thanks so much! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
Stay tuned for the Season 5 Ranking video!😊
I hope you enjoyed your tacos 😂
She'll have a special place in my 🫀 as well 😔.
I feel a lot of the flaws with this show, comes down to the notion cartoons are for kids. Keep in mind the turning of the weekly villains is based of negative emotions which lays heavily in mental health meaning a lot of nuance is inherently involved. That said anytime the show tried to help the characters grow so they'd be used as pawns less or at less the reasons wouldn't be the same. It's always walked back. Also the MC is always making the same mistakes because no one expects Micky mouse, or SpongeBob to change as those who would enjoy character growth don't watch cartoons supposedly. It's a shame because this could have been on the same level as ATLA
I wish that if they continued with her redemption, that we could had still gotten Miracle Queen but instead of using it for revenge she could have gotten akumatized out of blind anger and fear. Having her as Mircale Queen fight the hero’s only because of the influence of the akuma, not because she wanted to.
That’s what I was expecting when the Season 3 finale was first revealed. What a shame. 😔
Oh I just know Thomas wrote that on the page 💀😭 he’s sick
I really agree with you huge respect ❤
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it. 😊
16:49 Retroactive character sabotage, I wonder if this’ll happen in the future.
Just a little addendum:
The intro says that I have 10 subscribers. I made the intro a week ago so it’s a bit outdated. I cleared this up in the outro.
Thanks for the support! 😊
You grew so fast 😊😊😊
@@Vocal0idSupermacy_gumimiku It’s all thanks to you guys. Thank you so much.
I couldn’t have done this without you all. 😊
OMG. The Ace Attorney music! Very good choice! 😊👍🏻
This video essay is pretty good but let me add my two cents
This character was a mess from start to finish even from Queen Wasp onward. The fact they made her reconnect with her mother at all says everything to me. Though let’s not get it twisted Maledictator was a godsend for her character and gave us another issue with her, a possible case of Social Anxiety Disorder through the fact she was shown herself to be self aware to know everyone dislikes her and for her to say she has no friends tells me how she feels about Sabrina in a way that was never elaborated on. Plus through subtle dialogue we can get an idea of how she views her hero self, it’s her way to serve a purpose. In spite of story flaws from the very beginning they put this character in a VERY good place for the next season…
Season 3 was a MASSIVE disappointment. Don’t get me wrong Miraculer was good and did somewhat set up the betrayal at the end of the season… if it weren’t ironically enough for stormy weather 2 that shows that even the show itself has mixed messaging about her possibly turncoating by having her still not like Ladybug being insulted in the slightest when she’s not even around to hear her. This is then bolstered by her giving a genuine heartfelt message to Adrian in Felix showing again her genuine care for Adrian and shows more of her humanity, and this wasn’t even a Chloe episode!
We come to Heart Hunter and Miracle Queen and this could not have felt more… flat. The turncoat scene was one of the worst things that episode and its writing speaks for itself. Hawkmoth gives a very similar pitch as in Miraculer except she’s now using the bee and her parents as leverage, considering the mixed signals we’ve gotten this season we’d expect her to be conflicted or hesitant even when actually siding with him, but instead for little reason we get a full turncoat. Hawkmoth didn’t even try to argue that ladybug doesn’t care about her and only sees her as a tool, she just full turncoat because and I quote “She didn’t want to give up her privilege of being a superhero”. This was a shallow reason, a vapid one that doesn’t fit the character as they’ve established her now. It didn’t feel like they wanted to do this character turncoat to develop her in any way, they wanted to the do the opposite with it for some unexplainable reason. It didn’t really benefit the story to give her such a shallow reason, in fact there are multiple ways to frame this betrayal as a natural step by have it be because of her possible Social Anxiety Disorder and/or her seeing Queen Bee as a way for her to serve a purpose. There were way for this to be written well but they took none of these options and the narrative has suffered for it heavily.
I’m not fully though Season 4 and haven’t seen any of Season five quite yet but I do wanna note a few things.
Sole Crusher baffled me with how little the writers cared about her characterization, the actions and their intent felt different and even the feel of her character was unrecognizable. The Zoe conflict that episode is a shadow of what it could have been as it lacks any nuance on Chloe’s end and too little characterization on Zoe’s end for me to get invested. I don’t have much to say on this episode as both Chloe’s and her half sister’s characters felt flat and they are the main focus this episode.
Queen Banana is a travesty that broke my heart. Its vapid characterization, repetitive and boring main plot, and the laughable handling of the conclusion of Queen Bee and introduction of Vesperia through constant jabs and sneering backhanded remarks at Queen Bee as hero makes it feel like it’s a satire episode. This is a exit story of a major hero, one of the first new ones introduced and the one with the most buildup and they rushed through it like it was nothing. There’s no contemplation of how Chloe would feel about all this; it is all just flat, stock, boring emotional “conflict” that makes everything involving her feel like a waste of time. This episode is like “Antibug 2” as it has all the issues that one had; it’s rushed, underdeveloped, and vapid.
I’m gonna mention what I know about derision and how it extends to a wider topic across the show’s runtime.
Derision is an episode full of contradictions and retcons as you said with multiple characters taking the brunt, not just Chloe. Kim, Sabrina (ironically contradicting Sabrina’s words this season), Marionette’s classmates, the faculty, is made bad due to this massive retcon of an episode.
Let’s talk what derision shows us blatantly, the overeager willingness of the writers to retroactively change stuff on the fly, it’s not just a problem here, it’s been an issue throughout the whole show. The intentions of all Chloe’s kind actions being retroactively changed was not done for the good of the story, and was never even subtly implied in the instances they were changing.
I don’t like to say the writers had active malice for the character, but their actions and the subtext of their words say more than I ever could.
All in all I feel even the betrayal and retiring of Queen Bee could’ve been interesting for Chloe as a character even if it didn’t lead to straight redemption, and honestly I prefer it that way as redemption is never a straight line. The massive character potential and conflict they could have had with her over the next few seasons was so large it bugs me to no end they squandered it in such an avoidable way as we could’ve had an arc actually exploring Chloe and Sabrina, Chloe and Andre, Chloe and Audrey, Chloe and Adrian, and/or Chloe and Zoe and have them all be compelling due to Chloe’s potential as a character.
Chloe was THE most compelling character in the cast to me due to her complex dynamics but she ended up being a shadow of another villain both in and out of narrative, and soon became nothing in contrast with FELIX of all characters who turned their character around in spite of doing similar things to what Chloe did in each season finale with the slightest amount of deeper character motivation.
I hope you enjoyed my little tirade and I wish you the best!
You’ve got some very good points!
Thanks so much for sharing how you feel with me. I appreciate different perspectives. 😊
@@ACriticalRetrospective You got anything to say about the more in depth points?
@@thefrubblewarrior4678 I completely agree with what you said about Sole Crusher and Queen Banana.
They spent so much time hating on Chloé that they completely forgot to develop Zoé as a character.
You also brought up a really good point about Felix. He got redeemed in Season 5 and yet Chloé is left out in the cold.
Thank you so much for sharing this massive comment. I truly appreciate it. I really loved reading it. 😊
You’re quite insightful, you picked up on Felix being redeemed when I failed to mention it. 🤣
I hope you’re looking forward to my future videos.
With each season since season 3, Chloe just get more lobotimized. What a terrible fate.
I thought at first it was kinda genius, you know ? Have her fall into her old ways, in order to show just how broken both villains and heroes (I thought Marinnette would go through a self-improvement arc and Adrien would work on being there more for Chloé, as both himself and Chat Noir, perhaps even blaming everyone else a little for her fall since they didn't show as much faith in her as they should)sometimes can be, but that doesn't mean they can't come back from it.
Turns out, Astruc has all his priorities upside down.
This is an amazing video essay! I'll surely come back to your channel and watch other videos that you'll make! 😁
Thank you so much! I’m so happy you liked it! Stay tuned for the Season 5 ranking video. 😊
Look. Sure I love a rich bully girl character in any drama show. But then KEEP HER THAT WAY! They wrote Chloe as if she was getting better and was gonna be part of the hero crew but then NOPE! All of that was for nothing
Imagine labeling a young victim of severe emotional abuse (and arguably neglect) a lost cause and a brat.
Chloe got the worst treatment in my opinion they gave her so much character development it was really cool seeing her love for ladybug make her a better person she even take it a step further by being the FIRST person ever in the history of the show to break free from an akumatization thats how much she liked and trusted ladybug but then they threw that out the window to turn her into the villain again and then later make her sister the new bee miraculous wielder she did make a couple of mistakes as queen bee but she learned from them and grew as a person
They already confirmed that Chloe is going to return in season six and she will be just as evil/bully as before...or even more.
Damn you, Astruc.
Honestly at first I was fine with Thomas writing but the finale made realize just how horrible the writing is. Like you redeem an abusive father who is also an active danger to Paris but a teenager is not redeemable?
Chloe's character arc could've been so good if the writers weren't absolutely unhinged
Chloé's voice actress Totally ships her with Luka! Which is if you invert their colours you find out that they are meant for one another like with Marinette and Adrien!
In my Fanfic I will have my OC befriend Chloé despite her attitude and she will appreciate her friendship with her,while also having her bond with Zoé over the lack of love that their mom had on both of them and a chapter dedicated to the two of them stopping their parents from divorcing
Chloe could of been Miraculous's "Stella" (Winx Club). Sassy, speaks before she thinks, fashion obsessed, and in the middle of her parents splitting up. She can still have her mean moments but correct herself when called out. Chloe could of been the one who sees through Lyla because it makes so much sense. They could of had an episode where Lyla frames Chloe and the others start to believe she's back to her old ways. She could learn to sacrifice herself for others. There was so much potential but Thomas is stuck in his elementary grade level understanding of people.
Everybody in Marinette's friend group shares "nice" as a trait. They all have their own archetypes that makes them distinct for the viewer. Zoe doesn't. Gay? Juleka. Shy? Juleka. Zoe has no other attribute other than "nice". She's bland. No personality other than wanting to be an actress (which isn't a personality trait to begin with). They'd rather get rid of Adrien's childhood friend entirely than letting a middle schooler grow as a person
*BINGO*
Chloe being sassy but intelligent with her fighting moves made her interesting and added spice to the team. Everyone just following Mari's orders is just boring.
This why i created a story of Chloe living in the new universe and becoming a hero there and leaving everything behind at Paris and it's Called Redemption of The Bee Hero aka the anime where Chloe is the main protagonist of her own story.
Way better than seeing Thomas' Crappy story..and Ladybug/Marinette is the real villain by my theory with my evidence.
To be honest i hate all the characters expect Chloe who id the real of herself and other characters with characters changed.
Info: Wattpad
That sounds interesting! Maybe I’ll check it out. Thanks for sharing. 😊
@@ACriticalRetrospective
No problem and I really do feel bad for Chloe Thomas has the nerve to do this to a 15 year old girl..now I'm the one who takes good care for her like my daughter of one of my own characters.
@@ACriticalRetrospective
Also did you know that Marinette/Ladybug is the Real villain well I see the evidence so far is that During her mission that Chloe didn't get the miraculous because Ladybug is to busy thinking about Kagami takes Adrian away from her that petty and low considering that she's not even a great hero role model.
What gets even worse is that everyone is celebrating that Chloe is leaving Paris that even Marinette is celebrating..when Adrien walks in class asked why are the celebrating then Marinette says
"Chloe is leaving Paris" (with full excitement
But Adrian said "do you think that going too far?
Marinette: She's nothing but a worthless spoiled brat who is being a bully to everyone in Paris.
And then Adrian said that she's her childhood friend when he's young and never celebrated like that.
At the Marinette just sucking herself into Adrian agree with him and just pretending never happened it's obvious that she hates Chloe she's the one who gives her the miraculous and always wanted to becoming a hero And working with Ladybug considering that Chloe who is admiring to Ladybug.
they did her dirty
I agree with everything you said and also I subscribed because you make amazing content deserve 100Thousand subscribers
Thank you! I really appreciate it!
With all of your help, maybe one day we can reach 100k subscribers. 😊
Feel free to tell as many people you know about this channel.
I hope you enjoy my future content, thanks for subscribing. ☺️
I will shout out you in a video if you want
Thanks so much! I’d be honoured, it might help this channel gain more exposure.
I’d really appreciate it. 😊
To be honest, I even liked "Miracle Queen". That is, understand correctly. I think the way Chloe and her efforts were neglected could really lead to this. Even in the episode, it seemed like there was a hint that Marinette was the one who made the main mistake in all of this. This doesn't mean Chloe is completely innocent, it makes the situation morally gray for both of them. This seemed like a logical outcome, after which the characters should draw conclusions, admit mistakes and correct themselves on a NEW level, on a higher level, since their relationship has undergone a serious shake-up and would help them both reconsider their views. But... in the end they did nothing about it. As a result, we have what we have now. Complete zeroing and ignoring mistakes, instead of learning from them.
I’m glad you were able to see something good where others couldn’t. That’s very special. Thank you for sharing. 😊
@@ACriticalRetrospective It just seemed to me, to be honest, that this is where everything was heading. I just felt like this actually COULD be an interesting storyline that would just shake up the redemption arc and even give character development to both Chloe and Marinette (who would learn from mistakes rather than always being right). I just feel like the real problem with the episode isn't that "the redemption arc was ruined" but that this script was just used in a really bad way. We could literally explore what happens when a redeemable person is not believed in and what happens when the personal is put before the greater good (Chloe puts her dream before fighting evil, Marinette puts her love interest and dislike for Chloe above doing the right things, that need to be regardless of her personal opinion). This would be a really good parallel that could actually become a movement FORWARD, not backward. We could have gotten a really deep theme and we'll never get that.
Mari *DID* make the mistakes in the whole situation but you're right that Chloe wasn't innocent but that's where things could have gotten interesting. But instead it was just a waste of time.
People say that Chloe is meant to teach kids how to deal with people who are rude and static in their ways, but why do that if Lila represents that way better? Lila's a lot more realistic about the types of bullies someone might have to deal with as they age. The types of people who are manipulative and privileged and use their tactics to get away with it.
People theorize that Zoe was the original concept for Chloe, even if that's not true, that would've been so interesting. Chloe realizes that she doesn't have any real friends except for that one that she's been bullying, becoming true friends with Marinette, falling for her, and then having to accept she can't have her, showing true development as she's willing to not have things go her way for once? That would've been awesome.
i really would like to live in an another parallel universe where this show is actually decent and thomas is not the writer
I really like this video, it's well put together ❤️
Thanks! I really appreciate the kind words.
My Season 5 ranking video should be out soon, stay tuned!😊
No, it's Thomas Astruc's fault. Next...
Thomas also admitted to projected onto Chloe and Claim he was a bullied by a girl and literally slandered Chloe bc he was mad at the fanbase liking her.
Gee, Thomas. It's almost AS IF because of how interesting Chole's arc was, PEOPLE WERE GOING TO LIKE HER!
HMMMMM, WHAT A SHOCK!
The more I read, the more I ask; does Thomas realize ANYTHING that is going on because he has to be self aware to why people like her. He read the tweets, he's seen the reasons and from there he should have gotten it but from his behavior he acts like 'No, it's the viewers who are wrong'. And it gets to a point where you just have to say 'Look, you made the character LIKABLE. Be thankful for that.'
"What ruined Chl-" Thomas Astruct.
Damn! You are really underrated, guess what? New subscriber on your channel! Just remember, it doesn't matter how small your channel, I think these video's you post are worth gold :)
That’s so kind of you! I really appreciate the subscription, I promise to make it worth it for you, and everyone else who subscribed. 😊
Marinette's trauma wasn't going to the pool. It's the combination of the pool and having a date there. In the back of her mind, she's worried that Adrien will pull the same prank on her as Kim did. That's why she's so freaked out up until the akumatization.
Very hot take: I genuinely think that post episode 23 would be the best place for a full Chloe redemption. If the reason she refused to change was because she had power and therefore had no reason to, it's a good thing that power is now gone. She will literally more to gain by being a good person, and I hope the writers are at least competent enough to see that. After the Miraculous World Paris special proved that Thomas and the writing team could write, I have hope.
And I know I love to blame Thomas for a lot of the flaws in the show, but there's an entire writing team that approved all of this, and the thought of that keeps me up at night.
Good point! After all, people change when the pain of changing becomes less than the pain of not making the change.
( Also I’ve noticed you have a Ninjago profile and name. I get the reference to “Rocky Dangerbuff’”. 😄)
( Season 8 is my favourite season and Harumi is my favourite villain, by the way)😊
@@ACriticalRetrospective Thanks! Ninjago is my favourite show. My favourite Seasons are 8, 9, 13 and 14.
@@dangerbuffrocky I might make some Ninjago video essays if my channel grows enough. 😁
I agree. I feel like he probably had the final word, though.
@@ACriticalRetrospective i just found you channel because the youtube algorithm Showed me this great Video and now reading that you will probably make a ninjago Video makes me so happy.