@@flakyseasalt tho I have some points I kinda need to bring up Zuko was also one of the characters that had failed redemption as well during season 2 (tho to his defense he had actual redemption in season 3) And there’s also bluebird in Steven universe future she hasn’t been redeemed (even tho she got completely disappeared-) and jasper kinda-
They did it because miraculous is one of these stories that shed the light on the fact that in life you can find certain people that aren't redeemable and what not even though you try your best yes is one of the sad truth of life but in the end it's understandable and everything and all you can do is have hope for what you've done for that person someday can have a positive outcome until then Chloe has to learn all her failures happen for a reason and that she has to be open to make the change herself based off the things she has learned Chloe had to fail in order to realize how horrible she's been so in general it makes sense☝
So basically that's the truth for some Redemption Arts you have to fail even in the long run in life to realize that you have to change you have to fail in order to succeed even if it takes quite a long time for the lesson to sink in and for the type of person Chloe was she had to fail quite a bit based on the person she is to learn from Marinette in her other half ladybug to learn this cuz she was deeply rooted and insecurities in the obsession with being better and above everybody to a high extent regardless of what the words that could have been said to try and change her she had to go on a deep journey to learn this a journey that required a lot of failure to learn what she had lost in the end
I respectfully disagree. As someone who is not a Chloe fan anymore, if someone were to ask me what my thoughts about Chloe's failed redemption arc are, I will forever say that it's not genius writing at all. It's horribly executed. In my opinion, if they really wanted me to believe that Chloe is irredeemable, then they should have executed it better. They should have just made her the female version of Gary from rockstar's bully game, rather than a dead horse who keeps on getting beaten over and over again and nobody likes it when a writer keeps on beating a dead horse. Like okay I get it she's irredeemable, she can never change, but can we please move on? Chloe's arc is so repetitive and boring. Like I just don't want to see her on screen anymore. Anyways, great video, dude! Your channel is highly underrated! One thing I will never ever ever ever understand is... Since when did Chloe give Marinette PTSD?
@@eyelove_owlcity I think that was brought up in flashbacks that Chloe is behind much of marinettes creep behaviours in the past seasons and also much of her lack of faith in herself cause Chloe keeps putting her down most. kinda true, most episodes she has a hate boner for marinette for no known reason.
Derision is just a terrible episode, that actively contradicts so many things the show had established. If Chloe could get Socqueline expelled how come the entire class openly laughs at her on numerous occasions? Nobody brings up what happened to Socqueline throughout seasons 1-4 because?
@@nicholasrodinos4701 I agree with you in everything you say, I dare say that this is the worst episode of the series in general if it weren't for Queen Banana or the last day 2
A villain doing villainous things What a boring scenario right Every villain in every story keeps doing bad stuff most of the times like what is wrong with that To your logic nearly every villain in fiction is boring Joker, green goblin, kaido All of them does bad things constantly to show you that they are bad people and irredeemable thus making them boring because they are beating a dead horse Chloe's motivation wasn't good from the beginning making her hero journey in the direction of failure AND YOU IGNORING THIS DETAIL COMPLETELY That's why it's good writing because people won't actually catch it if they didn't give attention
@@nicholasrodinos4701 not brining it up is pretty simple honestly it's natural for people to forget about something or not have it in their mind after a good while
While I was disappointed that Chloe failed, I saw it coming. But then I am fully adult. My daughter was more disappointed than I was. She is 13. When I was 14, I would have made the same mistakes Marinette did. I agree, this arc was good, no matter how much I don't like the ending.
@@snoww3771 yeah. they hate for the redemption had nothing to do with bad writing. most of us hate it cause man it should have been a redemption. which is a good reason to hate on it
@@ethancox9737 It was clear that what Chloe really cared about was being seen as a hero - her bragging, setting up the "Bee signal", her impatience about getting "her" Miraculous, when she said she was giving Ladybug another chance.
@@snoww3771 Yeah, but that could have led to her becoming a good person for real if the writers had been willing. And anyway, her being so much worse in seasons 4 and 5 made no sense to me.
The way I see it, the only way this girl could be redeemed was if she faced the consequences of her actions. Even if there were moments of her seeming to be going towards the redemption route, she constantly went back to her bad behavior towards the end of the episode. Plus, most bullies don’t change their ways. Even in adulthood, some just continue to be bullies.
I agree with this, chloe had too much power for a 14 y/o and she's intoxicated by it and her father didn't even try to correct her , and marinette didn't learn anything about chloe even though she's been tormented for years, she only care about fame
Someone sent me a link to this video and you're honestly on to something here. Looking back on these episodes, Chloe doesn't seem to have changed all that much. While I lament that, I can definitely appreciate you for finding immense value in these types of stories. Thank you for giving me a wider perspective on this.
Yeah, I’m gonna start sending people this video more. Chloe’s failed redemption could’ve been a real wake up call if it weren’t for the power of wilful ignorance.
Who knows, in the state we saw her in season 5, she appears to be at rock bottom. And the saying goes: "from rock bottom, there's only one place to go, and that is up". Meaning that it's at her lowest point that she now is even more likely to be redeemed (or who knows, maybe she can find a lower place than rock bottom).
As someone who LOVES Chloe and wishes she was redeemed, this is fully fair!! I get the idea of a false redemption and I fully understand it!! While I dislike Chloe’s failed redemption, I can FULLY understand the appeal /gen
If the failed redemption arc had been intentional and better executed, I'd be on board with it. Like, having a character that DOES change but that still unintentionally relapses into her nasty bully behavior subconsciously would have been interesting jn my opinion. The way I see it is that sometimes when a certain behavior/way of thinking is so ingrained in someone that the person has internalized it, they are very likely to do it again even if they regret it and try to change. It's similar to how prejudice works.
There’s a scene in Revelation where Marinette literally states to Adrien “Sometimes the good we think we see in some people is just a reflection of our own, and we end up being fooled by our own kindness”.
I wouldn't have really had a problem with a failed redemption if it was written good, but I don't think it was. Her writing is especially bad in season 4 and 5, where we are supposed to see the end result of this failed redemption. But it just becomes so obvious they WANT us the viewers to hate her, which is really weird. And I think the biggest problem is that out of all the people who got some sort of redemption in this show, Chloe's was written the best. It was actually a slow progress, happening throughout seasons, meanwhile everyone else gets just a single moment basically and suddenly they are good. Another problem is the bee replacement. They could've had a better bee holder and show us that she is actually better, but instead we are just told she is better (again, they want us to hate Chloe), and we get Chloe's long lost sister with little to no personality whose only purpose was to be a bee replacement during season 4. (In season 5 they tried to make her a better character but in my opinion it was too late). Also, I just think Queen Bee would have been much more interesting, as she was someone who accidentally got the Miraculous, unlike everyone else who were chosen by Marinette. It was something new. And then there is Marinette. I won't blame her for her mistakes, some of them are well written actually. But the problem comes with the end results, and the show never really blaming Marinette. The last moment that really pushed Chloe to the bad side was that Marinette chose Kagami instead of her during the season 3 finale. Chloe was told she can't be Queen Bee because her identity is know. But guess whose identity Hawkmoth knows too? Kagami's! And again, I think it was a well written mistake by Marinette. But then it's never really addressed (or atleast not this part of the mistake, as she made multiple mistakes during that moment) and she continues to let everyone else be a superhero during season 4 even tho their identity's were found out. The only person she didn't allow to be one was Chloe, and yeah she doesn't like her, but she never learn this isn't okay. So yeah, I don't like how they did this, and as long as they'll want us to hate her like ever since season 4, I won't account Chloe for anything and continue to like her, since it's just forced and bad writing.
I do agree, but I think there is one difference between the 2, everyone knows Chloe is Queen Bee while Hawkmoth is the only one who knows about Ruoko(I can’t spell her superhero name). That’s probably why Ladybug went with her instead of Chloe. Not that I disagree with your statement, just thought that was why Marinette made that choice. Thank you
@@tarabotelho6692 couldn't any of them like ask the kwamis if they can have a way to change the suit or something like that is literally magic bullshit
@@evisl.w6552 Maybe, but when she revealed the Miraculous it was live. She practically said “LoOk At Me, LaDyBuG tRuStS Me!!!” Then again, this point might not matter. What do you think?
I am relieved that she didn’t change. Many bad people in reality Choose not to change, Even though they have many opportunities to do so. I rarely see this represented in stories.
Well at least someone finally gets it for Chloe's character. Personally back in season 2 I was rooting for her to change when she became Queen Bee as she learns bit by bit of empathy, but as the seasons progress more and more we see that in ways she wasn't even remotely trying to change her character and was just taking advantage of everyone and everything around her. Just as she was used to having to receive things on a silver platter (or in her case gold platter) and not to actually earn them herself. It's the same way with her abandonment and loneliness and the need to be a hero so all can see, we see that she feels that Ladybug wasn't giving her a chance to be Queen Bee when really Ladybug/Marinette didn't want to give her the Bee Miraculous for her own safety for herself and her loved ones of not being a main target for villains. Plus around seasons 2-4 when Ladybug was giving Miraculous to heroes temporarily is was a privilege to fight and be called upon while to Chloe was claiming entitlement for herself. But there's still the issue that Chloe's character while yes if she had dropped her selfish self entitled ego she still would've been Queen Bee. But she lacks of what it really means a hero besides the name, powers, costumes and the fame and attention. To be a hero is to know to use your powers for the sack of others, to know and how to work together as a team and of course the responsibility of being a hero and to have patience when called upon. It's just the same as her self proclaim Queen alias and status, there's more to being a Queen then a title and crown, it's about judge of character and learn what is right for those around her for the greater good. But as we've seen she only thought of herself instead of others. And what happened in Miracle Queen was a turning point for her, yes Hawk Moth played with her emotions of abandonment and loneliness. But after words it was a turning point of her actions that she didn't take full responsibility for and continues to blame Ladybug for not making her Queen Bee anymore. And with the seasons of 4-5 we see her going more downhill and becoming more and more of a pain as she still as a vendetta for Ladybug of banishing her from the team and not being Queen Bee anymore, demanding more from her father and making Sabrina more and more into a slave than a friend. All because she didn't get what she wanted as Queen Bee and be a hero that everyone can adore and count on. Yes I know she was still a kid, teen at most, but everyone knows when mistakes are made and takes full responsibility for their actions Chloe doesn't learn from her mistakes and take responsibility instead leaves it for others to pick up and blame others as well. And as we've seen everyone has their own development and growth and knows what they want in the future, while Chloe proclaims she doesn't need to as she will remain rich and powerful. And more and more in season 5 we've seen Chloe gone to far and pushing people as everyone had their limits with her. From Adrien finally having enough of her ending their friendship when Chloe proclaims that apologizing those with lower status were against her, Sabrina and her father Andre had their limits pushed to far and decided enough was enough. Seeing as Sabrina had enough of Chloe as well as Lila (Chloe unaware that she was basically Lila's puppet as well controlling her) and cut ties with her, and Andre finally actually grow a backbone and admitting he was responsible for spoiling Chloe and punished her in the end of the Revolution episode. But Revolution was a big one at the most, seeing as how far as Chloe as Queen Mayor had made all of Paris a literal nightmare under her reign, but having enough of her dictatorship and thanks to Ladybug's encouragement all of Paris has finally had enough and fought back finally kicking her off that high horse of hers. And when lost said power basically she ended up with no one to turn to, no friends no respect from adults, and even no love from her mother Audrey as we've seen her being all proud of Chloe having power and when lost said power and ruined the family name and reputation Audrey spoke of coming down hard on her and controlling her life and education meaning that Chloe would have no free privilege and immunity power as she once had. And thinking she was the one to get the last word had been the final straw for the tables to turn, with the call from Marinette was the one to slap her in the face with the harsh truth as she has no one and no power over anymore and that she was the 'Utterly Ridiculous' one. That call was it to finally get her to see of what she has become and that she was the one to put her self down that dark path all because she chose her self entitlement, her rich status and having Power, than trying to change her self and learn about empathy and the welfare of others. Man that's a lot out of me and my personal opinions. But at least in this video someone finally gets it enough.
@ but it depends really. Is she gonna straighten out and actually change or just be the Royal pain she is and out for revenge. It would go either way. All depends on character of course if she’s really going to try.
Even Ms Bustier after many times of believing Chloe can change, was finally pushed to her limit like “you know what, I’ve tried so many times and she’ll won’t listen….She’ll NEVER listen” and lost her cool in the episode where Chloe was exiled from Paris.
@ and don’t forget that Ms Bustier was pregnant too and didn’t need any stress over one teen who was unwilling to learn and be the total royal pain as she’s always is that had her way and got her fired. Ms Bustier is a kind person to everyone no matter what, but Chloe was taking advantage of kindness and not do or care about a thing for others. Well now that she and her equally rotten mother are exiled to London, Chloe will possibly get a taste of her own medicine as she’ll probably be treated like how she had treated others as doormats and losers, and having no adult figure to give her respect the same way she never gave any adults respect back in Paris. Still I’m surprised that during that call to try to get the last beat down to Marinette that Marinette didn’t tell Chloe something like “I’m doing some growing up, when are you gonna start to grow up for once!” I mean throughout the seasons we’ve seen everyone has their growth and futures all plan out while Chloe still behaves like a spoiled little child.
@@jamestolbert1856 Adrien speaks for himself. but I don't feel like julika or nino has done enough to warrant being holders (at the time they were given it)
You know, looking back at these scenes then you can really tell what Chloe's problem is. If you recall what happened in Miraculer, Chloe was very down about not being Queen Bee again and was made a fool by Lila. Immediately after this, she basically started insulting Sabrina out of the blue. From this scene it seemed like Chloe was only doing this to make herself feel better by pointing out how much better she was than Sabrina. Chloe's problem in my opinion, why she couldn't change, is because Chloe loves power, over people or things. For instance, during her life her mother left her when she was little and wanted nothing more than her approval and attention. Her father in a desperate attempt started spoiling Chloe, giving her everything she wanted. In his fear of losing Chloe, her father started to do whatever Chloe wanted. This started giving Chloe a power complex. Even how she treated Marinette in Derision, even though how unaccurete it is, shows how Chloe loves to have power over someone. Even her downfall episode and final episode proves this. During Heartbreaker she was frustrated that she couldn't do anything, especially when her signal light wasn't working. She was also heartbroken over Ladybug didn't have her help out. So when Hawkmoth, the person who akumatized her parent, offered her power she took it. Then in her finally, after losing everything and everyone, she immediately called Marinette to basically gloat about Adrien leaving and how Marinette was going to suffer because of it. It was like she was trying to keep what little power she had left, basically the power of a bully. Chloe 's problem is her obsession with power and that's the reason why she could never change.
Genuinely, seeing a failed redeem arc would have been good for me and was immensely cathartic as an adult. My uncles are not good people. But several times they tried to be, only to inevitably fall back on old habits despite everything my family tried to support them.
The problem with what happened is because Chloe is replaced awfully by some one dimensional character versus Chloe who had more depth during queen bees scenes. Chloe deserved to get redeemed. She deserved better. Chloe was betrayed first by ladybug and this isn’t a bias. It’s literally canon. The whole Chloe can’t get her miraculous because she had her identity known. Ladybug was a hypocrite and let kagami use her miraculous again after this rule was enforced on Chloe. Chloe gave ladybug a taste of her medicine by betraying her like how ladybug betrayed her. Nothing was smart about this. At all.
The sad fact is, Chloe's failed redemption acts as a very important lesson. While yes, people can change if given the chance, there are some who just don't. Chloe never took any actual steps to bettering herself, never caught herself in bad moments, and she enjoyed feeling superior to others and bringing them down. As disappointing as it was to see her not only regress but get worse, it was still a realistic outcome.
She did try tho, I'm not sure what episode it is but she feels bad about causing the akumatization of someone and she says its all my fault to ladybug and I'm pretty sure ladybug encourages her, she uses her own body to shield sabrina from being akumatized, and she sacrificed herself in zombizou to buy lady bug some time. I'm all for a damnation arc and I actually really love tragic characters but I don't think they wrote it well. It also just doesn't make sense from a writing standpoint to introduce Lila and make chloe, the previously lesser evil, worse. It's like they're filling the same role in the story yk. (I'm not a chloe fan btw) Also that lesson of some people just don't want to change could have been done with Gabriel or Lila. Because why does Gabriel, the man who neglects his son, get a redemption but Chloe can't?
@@thexreaderspeaks to answer your last question Gabe get redeemed because he saw his mistakes and tried to solve them He felt guilty and tried to do what he thought is the best for Adrian Chloe didn't change her motivation She still seeks attention, she still sees herself better than everyone else thus making her unreasonable, because her motives didn't change She felt guilty about the akumatization that she is getting attacked by She doesn't feel guilty most of the times until it affects her And didn't confirm her feeling of guilt to anyone except ladybug who is the one she wants to get her attention Protecting people from the akuma is also supporting her motivation which is getting attention ( especially ladybug's ) that doesn't prove she is a good person What I see the lesson from Chloe characters is : what identifies good and bad People, redeemable and unredeemable people is there motivation not there actions Bad motivated people will easily turn back to the dark side once they doesn't get what they want ( Chloe ) Good motivated people will realise oneday there bad behaviour and try to redeem themselves because they aren't as selfish and evil as bad motivated people even if they did more horrible things ( examples are gabe , Natalie, Felix) And lila is the new hawk moth so I don't need to explain why isn't that working for her
17:36 There’s actually a couple of lines of a rant made in a series known as RWBY that I think perfectly sums up what you were saying here: “You can’t just be STRONG, you have to be SMART. You can’t just be DESERVING, you have to be WORTHY.” You and others are completely right about Chloe having what it takes in regard to skills when it comes to being a hero. But just because she has what it takes in skills, just because she’s DESERVING of powers doesn’t mean she’s WORTHY of it, especially since she’s not being smart about how she USES the power she has and ESPECIALLY especially if she doesn’t have the PERSONALITY needed to be one. This is a bit of a hot take, but I actually like ZOE more than I do CHLOE. Not just as a Miraculous wielder, but as a CHARACTER, and her personality is the biggest reason why. She’s the OPPOSITE of Chloe with her personality. As seen in her introductory episode, Zoe’s CAPABLE of being a bad person, but she ultimately CHOOSES to be good. Chloe on the other hand is CAPABLE of being a good person, but CHOOSES to be bad. And that choice is ultimately what killed her chances of ever being a hero again. Ironically, in her attempts and insistence to prove that she’s both deserving and worthy of being Queen Bee, she ultimately digs her own grave and does the exact OPPOSITE.
As someone who is hyper fixated on both RWBY & Miraculous, I LOVE the fact you made that connection. Cinder and Watt's conversation was something that was REALLY needed by Cinder and honestly, if they want to do anything with Chloe at this point they NEED to have something like that.
@@flakyseasalt You should make a video in defense of her!! AND relate it to the stuff this commentter said like how "he’s the OPPOSITE of Chloe with her personality. As seen in her introductory episode, Zoe’s CAPABLE of being a bad person, but she ultimately CHOOSES to be good. Chloe on the other hand is CAPABLE of being a good person, but CHOOSES to be bad. And that choice is ultimately what killed her chances of ever being a hero again. Ironically, in her attempts and insistence to prove that she’s both deserving and worthy of being Queen Bee, she ultimately digs her own grave and does the exact OPPOSITE."
Yay! Someone else who sees how brilliant Choe's writing truely is. I've been on this site a long time, and been in so many fandoms, and Chloe's story is exactly what fandoms like the MLP:FIM and Steven Universe have been crying out for for over a decade. An antagonist who can not be redeemed. After years and years of villains constantly being redeemed- Discord, Starlight, Sunset, Peridot, the Diamonds, etc- it was really refreshing to see an antagonist not get redeemed for a change. I've personally always seen Chloe as a tragic character. She has some good in her, but that light was snuffed out by so many bad influences in her life. Audrey's verbal abuse and neglect, Andre spoiling her, and no one being able to stand up to her for fear of her parent's power. Chloe was made and encouraged to be the way that she is, and by the time any consequences for her actions ever happened, she didn't have the necessary skills needed to look at herself. Chloe is the perfect foil to Marinette. Everything Marinette is, Chloe is the opposite. But people are too obsessed with the story they expected to see how great the story they got actually was.
I think Chloe should have gotten redeemed. She was perfect for the bee miraculous and it seemed like they were setting up a redemption arc for her in season 2. Lila was introduced at the end of season 1 and became Marinette’s main antagonist later on. She basically replaced Chloe. So it makes sense for Chloe to redeem herself and join ladybug and cat noir but instead, they keep Chloe the same and introduce a whole new character to be the bee holder. Now all Chloe is a generic bully character who the main bad guys (hawkmoth and Lila) take advantage of from time to time.
The issue is that Chloe CAN and shouldve been redeemed...she has no point in the story bcs lila replaces her as marinettes antagonist and is way worse than Chloe morally
@@Individias Sorry, but while I do believe she had potential, that doesn't mean she SHOULD be redeemed. People like Chloe exist in real life, and kids need to see that some people are beyond help, ALONG with people who CAN be helped. Not only that, but Chloe's story is a cautionary tale about what can and DOES happen when you raise a child with no consequences. Andre is a permissive parent, who does nothing to correct or teach Chloe for the 1st 14 years of her life. Audrey is an abusive parent who only shows love to her daughter when she acts like a toxic narcissist. Everything in Chloe's life has taught her that she NEEDS to act this way to receive love, and that there is no downside to abusing others. She's incapable of understanding that her actions have consequences, because she was raised to think that to be impossible for her. Even ignoring Zoe, so long as Chloe acts the way she does, she's the golden child in both her parent's eyes. Kids raised to be golden children very rarely break the cycle of abuse. Chloe's story is incredibly realistic, and serves as a warning to kids what could become of them if they act like Chloe does. Her failed redemption arc is an important story to tell. It's important for kids who act like her to see what can happen to them. It's important to the kids who know people like Chloe that they don't have to put up with it. It's important to bullying victims who've had their own lives ruined to see someone like their bully get their comeuppance. And it's important to the parents watching with their kids to see the kind of damage permissive parenting can do.
@@MatsuyoRific And what about kids who are like chloe but are given up on? What tale are you trying to tell when the literal worse ppl get redeemed Gabriel and Fliex, but god forbid someone who did try to put in work gets back tracked cause lf a hate boner.
@@MatsuyoRific my question is why does Gabriel get redeemed? Why is he seen by everyone as a hero when he was the Villain? Jagged Stone was irresponsible, abandoning his kids and all, but now he's a good dad? Chloe could of gotten redeemed too and Gabriel could be evil alongside Lila
The main reason why the arc failed is because Thomas still holds a grudge against his elementary bullies, not highschool, not college, but his ELEMENTARY BULLIES which chloe is based off of one of them
@flakyseasalt many people have mentioned it, I just can't remember which ones but you usually find them in other Rants/Analyses, I mean it seems believable since Marinette is pretty much based off of Thomas' hypothetical daughter with his ex
Her is a tip If you want to enjoy a show Treat it as it's own things When exactly the show confirmed that ??? Never Because it's not important to the plot You have a 25 min video explaining why is was good and your argument isn't even from the show?? Seriously if you didn't know that info would you love that arc?
@@SkEi-y3b That don't bother me too much man. My thing is if you have this argument ,I need a source. cause everyone who has told me this hasn't told me the source. I wanna know where this is
10:34 THIS! Anytime i saw this scene after Miracle Queen, my response to her saying all of this was "okay, so what are you gonna do about it?" And sure enough, she did nothing. Exceptional video.
17:00 The problem with that is that her being Queen bee from her point of view is being a good person, which fair enough. She did save some when she was Queen bee in heroes day And she did apologize for her actions in Queen wasp.And in zombie zoo. But the problem is that nobody told her that her behavior was unacceptable until she is no longer queen bee. Ladybug could have just simply told her that the real reason why she's not allowed to have a miraculous anymore is because of her behavior. I will also make the argument that she does care about other things like Adrian and Sabrina Her father and her mother. Like does this show seriously think that sabrina is her slave? No She did all of this stuff willingly If she was truly her slave then She would have never had the choice to quit Being with chloe all the time.
@@sophiegerlofs4611 I brought that up saying that in her eyes she is redeemed in her eyes you are right she wasn't given any real guidance but at the same time we learn through despair bear she knows what are nice things to do she is just inclined towards being an ahole
@@flakyseasalt when it comes to doing nice things sometimes she dose and sometimes and she doesn't because the show can make up it's mind. She said "I'm suddenly feeling very generous" but then in season 5 she didn't know what generous means. What I was trying to say is that fame and her mother are not the only things that are important to her even in the season 3 finale she clearly cared about her parents. But then season 4 was all like "Nope she doesn't care about her father at all" In soul crusher she said something like I was too soft but then in season 5 she thinks she is perfect and doesn't need to improve and thus she must think off herself as nice or she somehow thinks being mean is perfect.
While it's inspiring to see bad people change, the media often sends the wrong message that "YOU can change a bad person" and Marinette puts that naive observation to practice and it fails. I like that, because I for one forgave and ignored people who treated me poorly to no avail, it's until I stooped lower than them that I actually made a difference, that being "don't get on my bad side" and not the "work on your manners" that I was hoping for. I wish more children media wouldn't beat us over the head with this bad lesson because sometimes, it's the right thing to do to hurt someone back, because children or not, bad people exist, I know them all too well and most of them don't learn the lesson until they face punishing consequences. That being said, I do see why people buy Chloe's "redemption" despite the signs, not because redemption is a popular trope, but because miraculous doesn't work with it's moral lessons properly (rogercop) and Thomas is known for having no grasp on continuity so Chloe acting against her ongoing development in some episodes is easy to brush off
Being Queen Bee forced Chloe to be a “good” person as well. In episodes like Queen Wasp or Miracle Queen, she wasn’t the same person. I feel like the biggest mistake ladybug made was not giving Chloe the miraculous. Marinette became a better person because she was constantly ladybug. But Chloe hardly received the miraculous. What Chloe needed was someone who had the strength to stand up for her and the strength to stand up TO HER. Neither Sabrina nor the Mayor had the strength to stand up against her. The only possible regret of someone standing up to her would be Chloe pushing her friend away, such as Adrien. And to be honest, Chloe had the slightest hesitation in the S3 finale. It was ladybug’s fault because she knows better than that, but Chloe is too stubborn to change herself. Feeling like you’re approved or worthy doesn’t boost your ego. It makes her feel loved. The only reason anyone would ever crave something is because they don’t have enough of it.
Why would you give the miraculous to such a terrible person to keep? She is untrustworthy. She may have been forced to be a good person, but no one sane person would trust anybody like Chloe.
@@Audreyana kim got chosen by master fu because he catched him before falling He also wasn't sure he's the right person He chose him because of his fun-loving spirit that he believes is needed for the monkey miraculous since he stated it's a special miraculous And Sabrina isn't bad she's just a little bit dumb Even if she did bad stuff with Chloe she was thinking she should be Chloe's minion because her father is the mayors right arm or something Neither kim nor sab is as bad as Chloe anyway and even if you disagree that doesn't make giving Chloe a miraculous is good that just makes giving kim and sab a miraculous is bad
@SkEi-y3b this is such a cold stretch. Chloe isnt like the worst in the show especially when we have brainwashing terrorist getring redemption. But someone who was not raised well and basically not loved by her mom doesnt deserve anything. What message does thay send out?
@@faith4657 I didn't say Chloe is the worst Her miserable childhood doesn't justify her bad actions and behaviour It does give us the reason on why she wants attention and why she is mentally unstable But keeping her mentality unstable and rejecting the way of changing is her choice and that lead us to the lesson: Being good isn't just doing some good actions because someone or yo get something, it's when you realise that you had a wrong morale compass that needed fixing and then after fixing your motivation on acting good you can start being a good person without needing anything or anyone to push you to become one Gabe did this , he realised that he was wrong and shouldn't do whatever it takes for his wife and hurting Adrian, that is why his wish didn't destroy the universe, because it pure wish that used power for the greater good bypassing the terrible consequences sacrificing himself in the process Have you ever seen chloe sacrificing anything she have for someone not important to her ? No Because she only does good stuff when being under danger, pressure, or the affection of someone important to her
Believe me, I was also bummed out when the “redemption” got thrown out the window, but I always had this *thing* at the top of my head that made me feel contempt with how the “failed redemption” worked, and I think *you* just proved that. 😅
Honestly, I feel like the reason Chloe didn’t get a redemption arc is because when her redemption arc failed, she didn’t hit rock bottom yet. Haze Clarke said something about it in one of her videos, so props to her for giving me this idea. I feel like for redemption arcs to work, the character in question needs to hit rock bottom in order to realize they need to change to become better. Chloe was pretty much living the lime life when her redemption arc failed, so I don’t think it was going to work that well. I still don’t see why Chloe was expecting to get the bee Miraculous again in “Hearthunter” when back in the episode, “Miraculer,” Ladybug told her she wouldn’t be getting it again. Although, considering her parents were the ones akumatized; I could see why she wanted to help, but they didn’t really care for her all that much, so that’s what stumps me. Another thing is that Chloe wasn’t supposed to get the Bee Miraculous in the first place! She got it by accident and then immediately revealed her identity, which is a big no-no in the superhero world, all because her mother was paying attention to the girl she bullied and not her. I’m guessing the only reason Ladybug did continue to give Chloe the bee Miraculous wasn’t because she trusted her, but to prevent her from throwing a hissy fit and getting akumatized. On that note, I don’t blame Marinette for not trusting Chloe. She literally bullied her for who knows how many years and now the victim is expected to just give her a magic jewel that could destroy the world in the wrong hands? Yeah, no. Not gonna happen.
To be honest, I don't think Chloe's fake redemption is well-written, and while she does things for recognition, it's not that big of a deal. Remembering that in Chloe's life she barely had any attention or positive recognition, she saw that being a superhero gives her what she never had and at the same time she is with the one who inspires her. It reminds me a bit of Flash Thompson in Spiderman (I know the storys are different) the bully fan of the hero who has a slight redemption based on admiration. My problem with Chloe's fake redemption is the moment she betrays Ladybug, she was right Ladybug left her to her fate and Heart Hunter was the perfect enemy for Queen Bee, But because of her jealousy she took Ryuko who was not supposed to be a heroine again like her.
And that is the exact reason why she shouldn't be a hero or take a miraculous Like the show keeps telling us that power shouldn't be used for selfish reasons She doesn't want to help people like ladybug, she sees herself better than everyone, she wants what ladybug have, the attention Making her a superhero only going to turn her like homelander the moment ladybug isn't seeing her Flash from spider man is another story because he to save people, he wanted to be a soldier is some comic books like his father , and in my favourite spectacular spider man he only bullied Peter because he thought it was funny *while* having some morals and then try to get closer to Peter at the end of the series
What's the problem exactly? That's the best reason they could have pulled to make her turn back Her idol betrayed her when she wanted to save her parents And hawk moth gave her what she always wanted which is power and recognising her Show her true self and true motivations
@@SkEi-y3b The show also shows Marinette using her suit to humiliate Lila because she's jealous, breaking the identity rule with Kagami because she's jealous, and also sabotaging Chloe and Adrien's dance because she's jealous, and she doesn't get any consequences. And about Flash's story I already said that the stories were different but in this case I'm talking more about the Flash from Spectacular who does fulfill what I said even if you think he doesn't, because Chloe did try to get a little closer to Marinette and if you don't believe me watch Animaestro
@@SkEi-y3b The problem is that the series wants to sell it to me as if it were Chloe's fault, or that she is the bad one, when it is Marinette who did not give a damn about her own rules and abandons her to her fate, without mentioning that it is again Marinette who does not receive any consequences, you will tell me that being a guardian is but in reality no, the series already indicated that that was going to happen, it does not matter if Battle of the Miraculous happened or not, plus a season later she still does not give a damn about her own rules and only fixes the problem for Rena Furtive. Not to mention that the price Chloe put to return to evil was to deakumatize her parents, I don't know about you but there I don't see someone who only wants pride. By the way, if my English is terrible, I'm using a translator.
@@orellaminmusic making lila the new hawk moth and nearly destroyed mari life couple of time Made Chloe turn evil again Made gabe hate mari even more and send Adrian to London Are you sure you watch the show ???
Honestly, I still can’t defend Chloe’s failed redemption. Are there people who will never change? Yeah. Not everyone is redeemable. And you know what? I could’ve appreciated the damnation arc if it was framed as a sort of tragic story, and I have to give you some credit for pointing out how they set it up. But the framing of it all as “Chloe is Irredeemable” rather than “Chloe is doomed to fail at her redemption because of the people around her and what she’s done.” Is what ruined it for me…mostly from Tommy boi, but even BOTM has traces of this. Nobody takes accountability for having chloe turn out the way she did, especially Marinette. She didn’t even bring up the fact that she trusted Chloe once and showed more concern for master fu rather than allowing Chloe to be manipulated by hawk moth…might not be true, but still. And no, I’m not saying Chloe should be forgiven for her past actions. She did a lot of bad things across the series, and it was her choice to stab ladybug in the back, but as you brought up, she COULD have been redeemed and she wasn’t, and they frame it all as HER fault instead of Hawk Moth’s manipulation, her father never disciplining her, Ladybug boosting her ego and having her be with her mother, and her mother…being her mother (which they do acknowledge but in a sort of “a bad mother is no excuse for being a shit person” sort of way…as if there weren’t a few other factors that shaped her into the person she is). And you know what? I probably would’ve been okay with Chloe being a villain or being more malicious, maybe the possibility of her finding out ladybug’s identity…but then sole crusher and queen banana happened…and it felt like the writers were trying to spite the people who gave a damn about Chloe and tried to force Zoe down our throats, give her the bee miraculous the episode after her debut, proclaim her to be “the real queen bee” (even if the voice actress doesn’t agree), have people praise her as if she was Jesus, bash Chloe and Queen Bee as a whole, and had the balls to end with “Maybe this will help Chloe be a better person.”….after everything that’s happened, that felt like a slap in the face, and wouldn’t you know, next episode, she wants Adrien locked up in his house…real classy writers. Apologies for the long rant. I just cared so much about this. Even as someone who wanted Chloe to be a villain, I still hated what the writers did to her. I still appreciate you pointing out how they planted seeds of it failing. It’s just everything from BOTM onwards and Tommy boi that made me hate it.
@@ASLB247 and so have you. thesr analysis are kinda here for my own mental notes if I ever were to try something like this. there is a lot I despise about chloes writing just like you. but I can see that there was at least something that was tried here I genuinely think it wasn't the shows intention. but the idea of a show taking full advantage of our better nature is pretty interesting regardless
I'm fine with Chloe not being redeemed, they just did a poor job trying to get me believe she could ever meaningfully change, and it could've worked if Chloe were allowed to make progress, only for something to happen that causes her to backslide. I personally take issue with Miraculous writing its teen girl villains as more evil and less sympathetic than Gabriel Agreste, the grown man who abuses his son, and torments all of Paris just to bring his wife back. I loathe how they try to turn Andre into a victim of Chloe, even though season 1 made it abundantly clear that Andre does abuse his power to get what he wants (like in Rogercop where he fired Roger for not arresting Marinette despite their being flimsy circumstantial evidence pointing to her guilt, or in Darkblade where they implied he played dirty to win the election.)
Gabe changed his motivation before his death and tried to do what he thought was right and the best thing thus making him redemption worthy Chloe didn't change her motives and still sees herself above everyone Gabe did more horrible things than chloe but gabe changed and sacrificed himself while chloe didn't
THANK YOU! Finally, someone who gets it. I was once bitter about Chloe getting a redemption too, but then I realized what the writers were actually trying to do and actually ended up liking her failed redemption. It was the story of someone who was given the chance to change but was unable to due to her being too proud to answer to the people she has hurt which ultimately ended up biting her in the butt in "Revolution".
The stuff that happened in revoulotion made no sense I kinda feel bad for her after season 3 I know she was bad but they started making her act kinda dumb an out of character
@gianpaolovillani6321 I wouldn't be too sure about that, because I believe Thomas Astruc is still the director moving forward and he's made it pretty clear that he isn't going to redeem Chloe, so we should respect his decision and move on. Plus, it would be pretty weird to have Chloe go through all that stuff about never being redeemed in the first place and showing that she isn't willing to change, only to have her change anyway in the future.
@Ekenebricks She wasn't out of character at all. You were just fooled into believing that it was out-of-character by the narrative. Notice how despite all the help she was given she never gave up bullying? That's because she didn't want to give it up because she derives joy from that and that's why her redemption failed. Chloe is a character all about privilege and power and "Revolution" gave her all the privilege and power she could have before having it stripped from her, finally delivering her the comeuppance she deserved. Yes, she had a neglectful mother, but all the suffering here is something she brought upon herself.
18:45 and mind you, even in the script for the episode "Ladybug", it clearly states that Chloe and Sabrina didn't get akumatized for different reasons and "they couldn't care less about what happened to Marinette".
To be honest, I like how Chloe failed to be redeemed. What I dislike is what they do with her after, she was so developed and would have been perfect as part of the main villain cast but they just pushed her to the side
I think that was the point. Chloe tried to go to that upper echalant in the villain hierarchy because she thought she was that good. Instead, she was the one being played, and she didn't realize it until it was too late.
@dangerbuffrocky yes your idea is on point, exactly on point But i still think they count have treated her villain arc in s4,5 better Not making her more important or anything, just making her writing better
@dangerbuffrocky yes Me as a person enjoys good concepts even if it was flat But these days most people keeps talking about things in the show that either small problems but everyone keeps yapping about them Or things that aren't even problem it just they didn't like it and started attacking
The trope of redemption has been so overused in shows nowadays that it was refreshing to see a character get the chance at redemption and squander it. It was so nice... until Season 4 and Season 5 came around. Some things i did not agree with: A) In season 3, it is a big plot point that Chloé cannot be Queen Bee anymore because Gabriel knows who she is. It makes sense... But then in Season 4, after Gabriel finds out the identity of all the temporary heroes, Ladybug still trusts them with Miraculous. Not to mention in Kuro Neko, they state that you can change your suit if you change your personality, meaning if Chloé changed, she could change her suit as well. B) The existence of Zoe. So when Season 4 was announced, it was also announced that there would be a new Bee Holder. There were some theories, like a future Chloé (since it was stated a character from the future would appear) or a Chloé undergoing a persona after Miracle Queen. But then it's revealed to be Chloé's... half-sister? That was never mentioned before and implies Audrey cheated on Andre? And is the complete opposite of Chloé and becomes friends with Marinette? Feels like a complete SI, especially considering she gets a Miraculous in her second appearance. C) Chloé's defeat and favoritism. So Chloé, who overthrew her father, became the Mayor of Paris and willingly worked with Monarch, is banished from Paris and goes to NY. I have no problems with this. However, then you have a character like Felix, who had no problem giving Gabriel every other Miraculous Ladybug had in her yo-yo, tipping the scales further in the villains favor, all for the sake of the Peacock Miraculous, just to save his own ass, is allowed to not only roam free, but keep the Peacock Miraculous full time? Heck, Gabriel, the man who had no problem starting WORLD WAR 3, is allowed to be seen as a hero at the end of Season 5. Seems like Chloé fate was more because Astruc hates her and less because the story makes sense.
@@dspace4514 Ill start by saying firstly that none of these points properly pertain to chloes story. got hawkmoth finding their identities out. I'm pretty sure season 4 was building up to that backfiring hard cause marinette started to treat this like fun with friends. as for Felix. I'm pretty certain ladybug really wants to do something about him but Felix is just so hard to track that it was just is what it is
I think that ladybug gave that excuse because she doesn't want Chloe to be a holder in the first place Mari have this weird habit to put the blame on another problem because she doesn't have the solution, like when she made her Adrian problem because of ladybug So this is putting more pressure on the questions ' who's fault was Chloe's failed redemption, is it Chloe's because she had bad motivation or ladybug's because she hates Chloe ' Ladybug keeping the hero's actually showing you that ladybug have problems with Chloe herself making the situation even more complicated Weather you believe Chloe could change if ladybug actually took care of her or not it's your choice I agree Chloe in season 5 and 4 wasn't very good writing so I'm not going to argue about it
Felix and Gabe changed there motivation and recognised they were wrong thus making them worthy of redemption Chloe just wanted attention and power and still sees herself above everyone else I don't see any problems with someone very bad to become good while someone is lesser bad than him stayed evil Like with your logic if someone steels 1 dollar every day and didn't become good then people who stole a bank should become become in prison forever because if the first person didn't change then they also aren't and should be in prison forever
I completely agree Most people believe that she should’ve been redeemed in season two or three, but still have hope that she will be redeemed in the future, or they think that she will never be redeemed and was never supposed to be redeemed I’ve tried explaining to people that she was not supposed to be redeemed in season two but she can still be redeemed, but I’ve never been able to find the right wirds This video almost completely describes how I feel about Chloe Chloe is a rich girl who was spoiled rotten by her father and constantly belittled, and put down by her mother. This shaped her to be mean and entitled because that’s how she felt she could get the love of her parent, the fact that she was correct in that assumption, especially when it came to her mother Didn’t help her become better. She was given multiple chances by her classmates by ladybug and by the world to change, but the only reason why she took them was not because she genuinely wanted to change, but because of the fame and recognition she would get by being a superhero and working with ladybug, when ladybug had to take her miraculous away, Chloe lost the incentive. She had to change and completely turned evil the last strand of good she had being tossed aside she gradually got worst and worse with her personality and entitlement which eventually caused her to lose everything at the end of season five I agree that Marinette took the wrong approach when helping Chloe and I can’t believe I didn’t see it before And now that I’m thinking about it, you’re right this is a very creative choice for the riders to make. I’m planning on watching miraculous again very soon and I’m going to be looking at Chloe’s redemption through this perspective to try and get a better understanding because the more I think about it the more it all makes sense In conclusion, I don’t think Chloe was wasted potential. I think Chloe wasted her potential I believe that it’s a realistic to still redeem her, but just as realistic to not redeem her because Chloe is still a child she can still change if she really wants to, but if she makes the choice not to change , then she won’t But I do agree with Chloe fans on one thing if she isn’t going to get redeemed, then her story should just end at Revolution The part of this video that definitely sold me if I wasn’t already was22:36 When you said that it was almost like we were in a toxic relationship with her This comment is getting pretty long so I will just end it with this Chloe’s failed redemption was genius and no matter what happens with her character in the future. I won’t change my mind on that.
Fun fact, in the Hebrew dub, chloe is voiced by Talya Barkey, who also does various characters in the show like tomoe tsurugi, the teachers bustier and mendeleviv, majestia and orikko. Other roles of her include yasmin in the bratz franchise, Anne-Marie in all dogs go to heaven, atomic betty in the show of the same name, twilight sparkle, goldie delicious and queen chrysalis in my little pony: friendship is magic, Jessica allspice, etta the han, hanna, veronica, macy, some of the sheep, a badger, dr. Betty, a vet, Freddy's mom, inga, Juanita, ivana sugardadsky, Shelia, prunella, and the fox cheerleader in back at the barnyard, Ashley in the boys, uniqua in the backyardians, arlene in Garfield gets real and Garfield pet force, Millie Burtonburger in kid vs kat, mrs. And grandma SquarePants, nancy O'Malley, sometimes karen and occasionally gary in SpongeBob SquarePants, and so so much more.
Ppl thinking she will actually not stay a villain when she is basically a girl Malfoy. Malfoy himself needed to grow up first to change his ways, you can't expect still teenage Chloé to know better.
That was the point of my video. Chloe didnt know better. and no one actually tried to teach her how to know better. No one actually gave any effort to teach chloe
Season 2 Chloe is really peak 😭😭, but the core is Chloe shouldn't reveal her identity in front of everyone, if she didn't reveal it none of this will happen, and She could still be Queen Bee until now
If Chloé had a better redemption arc it be her getting taught by the butler as a father figure or uncle Teacher they have was even close to Chloé like a mother than her own mom was
I honestly still think it is terrible to make someone who is a bully like chloe not redeem herself. A lot of people believe that people who bully are never capable of redeeming. Like Thomas said about Chloe, she is irredeemable🫤. I personally think this show is trash for making Chloe not irredeemable, in My little pony for example, them making Cozy glow not redeem herself made more sense since Twilight literally put her in the my little pony version of hell which let's be honest wouldn't redeem a kid that got the wrong version of what friendship means. Chloe not being redeemed is just so stupid to me. They could have just made her a bad person to begin with, and too far gone. If their goal was to make her a failed redemption arc, then they did a horrible job at this. Like i said Cozy glow failed redemption arc made more sense than Chloe's redemption arc which is wild since Cozy glow is suppose to be a kid who clearly didn’t have the right people in life to help her realise what she did was wrong. Cozy glow not redeeming herself was only Twilight's fault, and the show actually did a good job showing that. There is no good enough excuse for why exactly Chloe is irredeemable. If the show did what My little pony did with Cozy glow. They could maybe make it ladybug's fault for being the main reason why Chloe would never redeem herself. It would not only make Ladybug look bad for once. It will be even a better character development if Ladybug realises that she was the reason for Chloe not redeeming herself and her blaming herself for the mistake. It will honestly make Ladybug less like a perfectionist and more flawed. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter since we can't change the present, and Chloe will forever be irredeemable unless they find a way to make her realise her mistakes.
People believe that believes are not redeeming because they don’t redeem themselves. Because they never change. It is upsetting to find out your bully continues to bully people as an adult, However, this is reality.
Wtf It was ladybug mistake that made Chloe go nuts They even recognised that in more than one episode and in miracle queen itself But Chloe was never supposed to be a hero from the beginning ( at least in ladybug's eyes ) Her motivation was attention and power , she also didn't had so many good people around her It wasn't clear why didn't Chloe become good because it suppose to be unclear You can see it from Chloe's perspective and say it's ladybug's fault she didn't like Chloe and eliminated her or see it from mari perspective and say that Chloe had bad motivation and didn't change then Mari didn't realise it's her fault because she had an excuse in her mind and hear this ( she is not an angel) she isn't that plot device that should tell you what is right or wrong destroying your point about ladybug doesn't make mistakes Because she does and sometimes she is morally wrong she can't realise she did You as an audience aren't dumb to wait for the show to tell you " this is bad look how sad this guy is for doing it don't do it "
@SkEi-y3b That's what I was technically talking about with my comment. I hate how Marinette basically plays favourites when picking who will be fighting among her side and especially when it comes to Zoe. Literally, Marinette even asked for her phone number because Zoe helped her when she I think fell down or slipped. It is nonsense to me. It is the reason why I think that Marinette is way too biased, and it makes her a bad miracle box holder. The fact that she also gave Zoe the bee miraculous just by knowing her is ridiculously stupid of Marinette. So you are telling me if Lila helped Marinette like that, she would do the stupid crap master fu did and give her a miraculous? It just goes to show that Marinette is a biased and not fitting hero, and the miracle queen episode showed that when she focused more on getting Adrien away from Kagami. I find it weird that marinette fans don't seem to notice how bad Marinette was by doing that and don't seem to notice that it was Marinette's part fault for causing Chloe to go bad. If only she had given Chloe the queen bee miraculous to fight alongside her and not selfishly give Kagami the miraculous to get her off Adrien's skin. It is the main reason why I dislike Marinette. I do not hate her. I just dislike her for being so selfish sometimes. Marinette is definitely your typical Mary Sue main character. Keep in mind that the show tries to make Marinette look like a perfectionist when her actions are clearly bad, so I get what you meant by Marinette obviously being at fault but because the show owners made her a Mary Sue it made Chloe look like the bad one while Marinette the good one and I never said that ladybug doesn't make mistakes I said that she was a perfectionist which is very different from somebody who doesn't make mistakes.
i LOVE the idea of chloe getting a failed redemption arc, i love when a character is established upon by “💕making them worse 💕” i only wish they followed up with it in season 4 onwards :( there was a lot of emphasis on chloe’s humanity in her arc, her thoughts and feelings, things that (in a failed redemption) serve to show the audience what *could have been* but all of her depth was completely missing after miracle queen: she just becomes a petty bully and they *literally make her stupider* (dumb characters can still have complex emotions and be deep characters, but they completely reduce her to her surface level personality and she barely serves a purpose anymore) i would’ve loved to see her as a proper villain, she doesn’t even have to be a mastermind like Lila, make her stand out as a villain by her existing features: her passion towards ladybug, her immaturity, her selfishness, her activeness (as opposed to our butterfly users who hide in the shadows), i could go on chloe is one of many examples of miraculous progressively getting less and less grounded to reality with crazy world-threatening villains, an unnecessarily large superhero team and *marinette and co somehow recycling all of the plastic in the seine ???* (what the hell happened in action)
Chloe’s failed redemption would have been fine with me if they treated her with more dignity. Instead they not only ignored and downright downplayed her nuance and the parental abuse she went through but they made her a bumbling idiot who doesn’t know how to spell words. They turned her into a joke instead of an actual threat for Ladybug. That mix in with the fact characters worst than her (like her father) got treated with much more kindness is baffling to me. And for that I can’t enjoy this arc no matter what. A failed redemption arc can still be humanized. Chloe’s fall could have felt like a tragedy. But people hated S4 and 5 Chloe for a reason. And the reason is despite this failed redemption being “planned”, it came with nasty and nearly victim blame-y implications from the creator as well as outdated dumb blonde tropes. I also notice that you constantly water down Chloe’s motivations to one single thing: attention. But you never ask why. And the answer isn’t that she’s just a narcissist but she’s been neglected for YEARS. Her father replaces actual love for items and doing whatever she says. I don’t even need to bring up her mom. People often demand something they don’t get enough of. I feel awful for people who (to an extent) identified with Chloe. Because it sends a message that “you’ll never change and it’s better for people to move on without you. You are dumb, incapable and you’re better off staying with the people that abused you.” It’s fucked up. And no amount of “genius writing” can cover that up.
@@redballoon9007 you make a point. but I think whatever you said adds to what I'm saying. like you said Chloe didn't need much to be redeemed. it's just that those moves weren't played. and given what the story and characters I call that fairplay. my whole point of the video is that it's not a failed redemption because she was irredeemable. it's because she wasn't given the CORRECT chances. hence why I point out marinettes mistakes. she was never pointed to the right direction. and why would they, the characters who she interacts with most are just as clueless as she is to me that's a smart way of writing a failed character. if it isn't for you, no problem
A good point. And while we're on the subject of certain characters getting built down and built up, can we talk about how no one really discusses Adrian's situation with his father ? He goes through a lot of abuse but that doesn't really get touched on too much. His dad is a literal villain and yet he kinda doesn't get much comeuppance at least when it comes to his son... That's kind of messed up
@@seeleunit2000 that's the point. It's pretty clear that Adrien is getting built up for a massive trauma dump with all the flags we have been given through out the seasons. Adrien is definitely being addressed we just gotta wait
There is so many wrong things in this comment First, her bullying and her selfish behaviour have nothing to do with her parents bad treatment Also she had that butler who kept taking care of her She wanted her mom's attention in any way she started acting horrible and that isn't an excuse for her to be bad You could seek attention without being a bully of selfish Ignoring her parents isn't a big deal since they are not the direct reason for her failed redemption She turned back evil because ladybug ignored her and hawk moth gave her the attention she wanted not because her parents ignored her
butterfly effect-pun intended- got a genuine audible snicker from me, thank you for that. I def don't care that C's redemption arc failed. She reminded me too much of that nasty school bully (of which i had several) that no matter what they did, I knew I would always hate them. Great vid!
I do agree that making Chloe's fail redemption is so genius and it can shows that not all can be saved by heroes so easily. It also can show how young and naive Marinette was since she is just a teen. But I just wished that they tried a proper redemption with her again using Zoe. This way Zoe wouldnt just be a bland character who is just a replacement for the bee miraculous. I feel like I would also accept the fail redemption if chloe's dad and Gabriel did not get random redemption when they both neglected their kid and one literally abuses their child.
@flakyseasalt in a way yes its well done but it seems to be unintentional since Thomas didnt like Chloe in the first place as it is obvious in the latest seasons which made her like 10 times worse for the fandom to hate. I mean its reasonable for her to be worse since she probably thought the bee miraculous was the only way for her to be "exceptional" and when thats taken away she doesnt have any other thing to show that. But it just feels upsetting that everyone in the show gave up on her and she was a loss cause. I mean the rest in the show also have flaws but they are either overlooked and rarely corrected unlike for Chloe. I do believe the fail redemption is done well but it feels unintentional in the writing since again, Thomas just cancelled her redemption cause he doesnt like her
@@SkEi-y3b ok but my point is that the two adult man who are clearlt worser than a minor bully brat gets to be redeemed? Also Andre technically didnt abuse Chloe but the neglect is also bad and also he abused his power as mayor
This is a take I haven’t thought about before and now I think I can appreciate it. My main issue is they write Chloe to fail but Gabriel gets a redemption at the end of season 5. He was way beyond redemption at that point even if he technically did the right thing in the end. It’s a lot easier to forgive a stuck up teenage bully than the adult who torments Paris regularly. Yet, they tried to make us hate Chloe but sympathize with him. With that being said, I have not seen the London special or anything about season six so the thing with Gabriel might still be explored.
Gabriel wasn't really redeemed, he was simply just sorry for what he was done after Emily's last message reached but at the end of the day Gabriel still decided to join Emily in death with the wish instead of coming clean and spending his last moments with Adrien. Comparing Chloe and Gabriel is just wrong cuz both are in completely different situations with different problems as well as ideologies
@@frisk8632 you know what you’re right it thank you for pointing that out. I only watched it once so I feel like I need to rewatch it but I never get around to it haha. Mainly I’m upset cat noir didn’t get to be in the last battle. As cool as bug noir is I love the duo so much and hated to see him left out!
It is hard to call her failed redemption genius since the writer dedicated his time in making her feel sorry apologizing to Caline Bustier heck even at one point resisted being akumatized by hawk moth and by the season 3 finale all of that whole chloe changing for the better was thrown out the window and by the start of season 4 onward she just became worst and worst it even made me wonder why bother try showing signs of Chloe redeeming herself in the first place it just made all of those redeeming qualities she was getting in season 2 completely pointless.
Got to be honest I kind of like Chloe failed redemption, mostly because it shows something that more writers and people in general should realize. Redemption arcs should be hard. You don’t get to just to bad things Apologize and then all of a sudden you’re a good person. If Chloe wanted to change she would need to release that no one is going to forgive her in just one day and that some people won’t forgive her at all. I mean like you said it’s her own fault that no one likes her, she should have to put in actual work in order to be a better person and want to be, not just wanting to be a good person so that people will like her.
You are wrong in one part. This girl only had a bear,a boy and a peasent as a friend for FOURTEEN-EIGHTEEN YEARS! Her father spoils her so that he will LOOK like a good father and her mother left her as a KID,HAD AN AFFAIR WHILE IN A MARRIAGE AND HAD A KID. I think what sums up Chloe is this word "Every child deserves a parent but not every parent deserve a child". Chloe wants LOVE,she saw how EVERYONE loved Ladybug but came to learn that being a hero,being a good person is more loved than her. Everyone wants happiness and love,REAL loving person. I believe the reason why she became a villain is not because she is a spoiled brat,it is because she wants LOVE. And she had the wrong person as parents and the wrong hero. Not to mention there is more to this than the show. Thomas legit said that she can't get abused because she is rich,like BROTHER WTF?! In my OPINION Chloe isn't a narcisisst. She is a VICTIM. Her parents? Oh-so-great relationship. Friends? SUUURE CUZ SHE HAS PLENTYYYYYYY. A hero who isn't a teen stalker and a Mary Sue? YEAHHHHBH,CUZ LADYBUG TOTALLY FITS INTO ALLLLLLL OF THAT. Honestly at this point. Take the most powerful Miraculous from the hands of this CHILD. PLEASE. MARINETTE ISN'T EVEN THAT ENJOYABLE OR LOVEABLE MC! CAT NOIR MADE LESS MISTAKES,BETTER BACKSTORY,BETTER DESIGN,ISN'T THOMAS ASTRUC'S VIRTUAL DAUGHTER. I am sorry but Chloe is a VICTIM. And saying she did this to herself when all of her guides were either minors who should NOT be superheroes or awful people aka her mom and dad,what the fuck dude? She was of course going to do this! She had the WORST characters in the show to guide her (and yes I am including Mari in this,cry about it) Honestly I feel like if they showed she had the wrong teachers and stop victim blaming this CHILD. I would have been fine. If the reason for her disredemption was wanting ONE LOVING PERSON IN HER LIFE I would have loved that! Also can we talk about her parents? Why the FUCK does Andre get a redemption arc? He could have just rented a babysitter to give Chloe manners but he couldn't give less of a shit! Eighteen years of being an awful parent to a once innocent child is more acceptable than being a high school bully? ANDRE WAS GOING TO CUT SO MANY TREES IF IT WASN'T FOR FUCKING CHILDREN TO PROTEST,AND HE DOESN'T GET CALLED OUT BUT CHLOE HAS AWFUL PARENTS,LADYBUG IS AN ABSOLOUTE BITCH THAT TEACHES WRONG LESSONS,SHE HAS NO FRIENDS,NOT LOVED,HATED BY EVERYONE,IF IT WAS LEGAL HER PARENTS WOULD JUST LEAVE HER IN THE DUST,HOW IS SHE A NARCISISST BUT NOT A VICTIM?! I GENIUENLY DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT WHEN IT COMES TO THAT! AND I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GIVE MYSELF PROOF SHE IS A NARCISISST FOR 3 FUCKING HOURS.
Bro, he is giving his opinion.. He isn't implying that his theory is correct. You cannot set your opinion about a character as the only opinion. Nothing meant rudely towards you or the creator..
Girl stop being rude. That's why I hate this fandom. Raging will not solve anything. Or blaming any character. Let me say that: Why won't people use fandom for better purpose? Example, creating fantastic fanfiction or comic. For example I enjoy fanon ones than actual show. But cynistic people like u are ruining the fandom. If you gonna disrespect like that and spread hate, please leave from here.
@cemrecerenylmaz7958 I enjoy fanon ones than the actual show? Do you mean MORE than the actual show? As I said,this is my OPINION and I am trying to understand the opinion of the one who made the video,I personally did not agree with a lot of his points and the more I try to see their point I still see problems and I am asking if I am missing something. I watched this video twice and yet I still don't understand this opinion! So not understanding someone's opinions is now rude? What a joke
@@winxclubcomejointheclub6066 I think something is wrong with your comment, looking at the capitals and the word framing I definitely don't think you are rude 💀
I can get the fail redemption part, I think that could be interesting. But Chloe overstayed her welcome, and every appearance that supposed to show how Chloe is being worst also make it a funny bit, like haha look at this spoiled brat making a fool of herself, which kinda takes away of her going deeper towards the dark side. I like the concept but she should've get her comeuppance much sooner cause every time she's mentioned, it's always a jab at her to further show she's bad which again kinda make it feel like an on going bit. Honestly, I wish they didn't have it so that her dad also have a mini-redemption when he "finally" stand up to Chloe too, like dude, that was what you were supposed to do in the first place. Honestly I think there's definitely a lot more reason why this fail redemption arc could've been more obvious but that's just too much stuff to say
hat whole "she stalks because she was bullied" thing is not an excuse at all. The creator never had that in mind before, he just added it in last minute (after 5 season of portraying her stalking and obsessive behaviour as cute and normal) to basically justify it because so many people were complaining.x
While my views have changed thanks to this video, I still believe that deep down Chloe has some good in her. There were true selfless moments from her and I can’t look past that, despite her villainy. Hell, Gabriel was redeemed and he didn’t have one ounce of light in him before that episode! We saw multiple times he was ready to beat his son and his son’s girlfriend to near death just to get the miraculous, and he didn’t feel any guilt, so to me he was irredeemable despite sacrificing himself (to reverse damage he caused). If Thomas thinks he’s redeemable, I know Chloe is too… it’s just a shame it’ll never happen
@@pizzahutofficial2756 oh I never said Chloe never had good in her. she clearly did. Im saying she wasn't given the right guidance for that good to come out. with the decisions given to the character only enforcing her bad influences. Gabriel is only been provided with "redemption" on the account of being a broken villain. and even then. he didn't even properly redeem himself. his wish was to get someone he loved back. he got it. he just changed who bore that consequence (Emily with Natalie and some poor mother with himself). Marinette wanted nothing more to work out a solution that actually redeemed him and also save him from his cataclysm. but Gabriel didn't accept that chance. which to me means he never intended his decision to be redeeming to begin with.
@ the main issue is that marinette was too young to be given all of this responsibility. Fu chose his heroes hurriedly and neither of them have enough life experience to be the heroes they’re supposed to be. Don’t get me wrong, they still get the job done, but marinette as ladybug cannot do what an adult with proper life experiences could. Including giving Chloe the right advice and helping her get better as a human being.
@@pizzahutofficial2756 yep. marinette tried to help but she is no Naruto. she did the right things just not to the correct person. as I said in the vid. Chloe would have gotten better lee way if Marinette said "fuck yo mama fr" and "nah if you genuinely feel bad for the stuff you did. stop running. away, fix it. and keep tryna fix it. maybe then you can actually be the hero you truly can be" that's it really. at that point it was upto Chloe to follow through on her own path
Gabe changed his motivation Chloe didn't Gabe redeemed because he has changed Chloe didn't It's okay for very bad people to change and it's okay too for lesser bad people to stay bad Its not bad writing if it can happen in reality
Chloe only didnt get a redemption is because when the episode (the one were Chloe calls herself useless) got released Thomas got pissed because its based off his bully from school and is petty and can't stand to have her redeemed so he rewrote her redemption in further episodes.
Yall see a character on a redenption path having LOWS and regressions and immediately go 'yeah unredeemable' THATS HOW IT IS IN REAL LIFE shes like the character most rooted in reality and thats why she has been beloved by fans. Chloe poured her all into doing hero work and it makes sense why she had a hard time figuring it out and letting it go, have the authors presented it from the perspective of 'you had your shot and lost it' it could've made sense but they chose to capitalize on chloe as a hero too long and then rubbed it innwith her sentimonster sister 😅
you do realise its only regressions right? like this is understandable if its like "oh she screws up here and there but overall she does more good then bad" this is a character that has stayed the same. also weird for you in a different comment to mention this bad writing but then give a proper explanation to chloe not having been redeemed
Now all the Chloé stans will accuse Marinette of everything. Some of them were already blaming her, like it was her main responsibility to take care of Chloé and guide her to being good. Yeah, because to them, saving the world is less important than caring to your bully every needs.
@@xibe2007 Actually most of the Chloe stans in the comments come to understand where I'm coming from. and I'm even seeing comments of people understanding marinette couldn't be blamed cause she really was just working with her experiences.
If only marinette didn't kept gaslighting the girl and holding a Miraculous to her face and on top of that lied abt her identity being a problem when it clearly wasn't, isn't and never truly was but in few episodes of the whole run of the show
No offense, but I honestly going to have to disagree with you about calling Chloe's lack of character development as "genuine storytelling" because while I somewhat do agree with the moral that not everyone can change in order to like the mean characters as a character since it's okay to like or favorite a character who is a mean, selfish, snobby, & egotistical person that didn't really redeem themselves & are so full of themselves especially for bully characters since we all have different opinions on these type of characters whether they're likeable or not & regardless of the hate they get by every fandom, sure the mean popular jerk trope isn't anything special & isn't for everyone at all, but that doesn't make the trope itself bad or poorly written, it's just something that happens to everyone in real life & in animation and live action especially how these bully characters despite them being awful people, can have their fans whether they like them for being funny, entertaining, attractive, relatable, or combination of both, bullies like Azula, The Dazzlings (aka Adagio Dazzle, Aria Blaze, & Sonata Dusk), Heather (Total Drama), Regina George (despite actually redeeming herself at the end of Mean Girls), Lucy Van Pelt, Eric Cartman, Diesel (Thomas & Friends), Junko Enoshima, & Chelsea Van Der Zee, where they're all very mean, selfish, egotistical, boastful, snobby, petty, & are overall not very nice people, but they're also amazing, iconic, & well written characters that can show a good side of themselves, but never to the point where they become the good guys as they're still antagonists that continue to do terrible things, yet they have fans that really enjoy their character because they are charming, entertaining, complex, & fun villains in a genuine way that doesn't make them boring & pointless especially how most of them actually do get some character depth when it comes to exploring some backstory as to why they're the way they are, of course it doesn't excuse the terrible actions they did, but at least I can understand why they're like that, and they're development was never neglected by the writing and kept they're development in their character to make it clear that this stuff has actually happened to their character, which makes these bully characters I mentioned less one dimensional & more three dimensional & more human and how the shows & movies see the genuine potential to redeem these bully characters which is something I feel like Chloe Bourgeois is completely lacking when it comes to her villainous acts as she comes off as a boring villain with no effort put into her character writing and her motivations being so lackluster & lazy and how it didn't develop Chloe's character at all throughout 5 seasons of Miraculous Ladybug especially how the show seems like it wants to give Chloe some character growth when it comes to humanizing her like her family issues, not having many friends, & lacking any empathy and while it doesn't excuse her bad actions, at least it gives me a reason to sympathize her, but the problem with this writing choice is that none of Chloe's tragedy is treated as tragic & sympathetic, but instead is treated as not a big deal or had nothing to do with her downfall where Thomas Astruc & the writers treats Chloe's life as good where they think she had a better childhood with no bad influence by her parents, had everything she wanted, and was just straight up entitled girl throughout her life, when in actuality, it's not always true, Chloe did had a terrible childhood where she was a young child that was neglected & abused by parents who never taught her how to love herself and show empathy towards others around her especially how her mother leaving her, how her parents greed, abusive, & corruption of power & will caused & influence her to become who she is in the show as she grows up as a teenager, someone who is so horrible & toxic that can make her so miserable to the point where she would do that to the other characters around her, and yet, the show never painted this as "tragic", it's always painted as something that never happened to her, which is just so stupid & dumb because a lot of this child abuse has happened to her that made her the way she is, and yet the show just doesn't see that, and to be honest, I absolutely despise how the show handles serious topics like child abuse so disrespectful where they don't take it seriously at all, & I still feel like Chloe's lack of character growth or lack of development is a contribute to one of me & everyone's biggest criticism with Miraculous Ladybug, and that's the lack of character development of every character in the series because not a single character has gotten any depth at all throughout 5 seasons as the majority of them just remained the exact same people with no character arc or development, and the episodes being just the basic "Monster of the Week" format that only worked for the first season since it was just the beginning of the story of the series, but in the later seasons, it looked like it wants to be story driven & mixing up with the episodic format, and the thing is that style can work, and would give these characters actual depth & backstory/flashbacks where it would change everything about the series (similar how Gravity Falls, My Little Pony, Steven Universe, Star vs the forces of Evil, Amphibia, & The Owl House did where they all started off very episodic fun adventures in the first season, but as the show went on, they start leaning into the story driven format while having some episodic adventures, but even then, they're was still continuity in these episodes where things are actually starting to change a lot where the characters are starting to develop, envolve, & change in the story as well as having flashbacks of how these characters turned out to be & many others that are related to the lore of these shows), and the show tries to do this, but it completely falls flat because nothing feels like everything has changed in the story where we as the audience thought the characters (not just the characters who are mean, but also the ones who are nice as well) have grow, change, & envolve, but instead, everyone just remained the exact same people from the first season with the only change being they have given Miraculous powers, the students becoming Miraculous heroes, new superheroes, Master Fu no longer around, Felix's introduction, & Gabriel given new transformations, but that's it, and even then, they absolutely do nothing interesting with these new changes to the show where they're now used as plot devices rather than being used as a meaningful point to the story where it would actually develop the characters, & every episode format is really just a repeat of the first season, but becoming even more boring & dull to sit through, and that to me is what always bother me about the show is how there is no development to all of the characters especially to the new characters like Zoe Lee for example where they're all just really simple stereotypes where some are just goody goody super sweet characters with no selfish or mean side, and some are just baddy baddy super mean characters with zero good or redeeming side, and even when the show tries to be interesting when it comes to the time travel stuff, it still doesn't work because it makes the storyline so confusing & all over the place and because of the show's lack of serialization or continuity, it makes the whole show so boring & formulaic to watch, and how it also makes the stakes or heartwarming moments in the series extremely lackluster & kind of forced where I don't feel or relate to any of the characters, I just simply feel nothing for them, that's how bland, generic, & one-dimensional majority of them are and there are times where the characters in the show are kind of mean spirited jerks when it comes to the bullying parts, & the characters at times being so hateful to each other whether they're racist, abusive, toxic, idiotic, cruel, unlikeable, or both, and that's one of the reasons why Miraculous Ladybug has gotten so much hate nowadays because there is no actual change to the story & characters, it's all the same formula over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, & over again, & it's so frustrating & painful to watch. But if you actually like this writing direction for Chloe & the show itself then that's fine, I'll respect your opinion on it, I personally couldn't get into it especially how I never saw the appeal or popularity of the series whenever it doesn't try to do anything interesting with the story & characters, yet, it still going on for 10 seasons despite not doing anything compelling with the writing, thus, making the entire show (like I said before) pretty boring to watch, and that's coming from someone like me who used to be a fan of Miraculous Ladybug before I fell out of the series around season 5 (& probably will never come back to this franchise again). Anyway, nice video on Chloe Bourgeois though 😅😊.
will admit i was disappointed(not upset like other) of what happen in miracle queen but after reading trivia on her wiki page help change my mind on it making me realize that chloe never change was still spoiled brat from day 1 of series
@@emiliaw262 yes but the story does revolve around marinette so it makes sense and im pretty sure most of those supposed akumatizations are not on purpose unlike chloe who PURPOSEFULLY brings down other people
What's this? A person making a video on Miraculous who ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS THE SUBTLE WRITING?! Am I dreaming? Have I entered an alternate universe? Have pigs learned to fly?! Fr though, this video is a nice breath of fresh air from the constant rants disguised at criticism about this show that only prove the person's lack of understanding writing deeper than surface level. I think I'm gonna stick around, see where this channel goes.
I feel yall love to call this a 'fail redemption' to cope with the fact it was a terrible writing twist and a waste of time, and now that is 6 season in is better to call it that... Chloe moves the plot and was probably the most efficient hero yeah she wasnt in it for heroism but she was IT when she was locked down to the purpose of being a hero And thats what chloe needed at the end of the day to be a good person to see that when she does good she will receibe honest graces and not shallow ones. The reality is Marinette didnt help chloe AT ALL if anything she kept gaslighting her when she kept giving her the power like gdamn WHYYYYY. The reality is Chloe needed pollen's serene attitude and ladybug's guidance after her first fail, and the show was steadily building that very well (y'know the path to better is filled with highs and lows), after that we already know chloe can easily reject akuma she isnt a that much of a liability. Truth is writters decided to butcher a great storyline and their MC just to create a plot to hate a blond girl instead of realising 'hey, we have something good here lets keep it going' It doesnt matter now but it remains the most wasted dozen episodes ever
Honestly yeah, I hate this arch so much and wish she actually did get redeemed but at least it's actually good writing! But, I do despise what they did with her character in Season 4 and Season 5, she just awful there.
We shoudl try to get this video to more peoples attention guys!!!! Like and comment or tell ur fav miraculous TH-camrs or fans to try to cover this. Go to smaller miraculous creators and tell then too!! Its a unique way of thinking that doesn't double down with the wave of people who disliked the arc and VERY VERY LOGICAL
@@flakyseasalt No problem! I mad appricate u man espically for replying!! Im gonna try to contact utterly chloe and see if shell cover this and plus she hasnt been able to make much content cuz there isnt anythin else to cover until season 6 comes out so that might be convicing!! She also seems like the person whod cover this lol
you think this is what they wanted...but when you look at the directors twitter (i cant spell his name) so even if this seems planned from the beginning, if you get the context from his tweets, it just seems like the writers wanted a redemption...but scrapped it due to the directors insistance of making chloe unredeemable...but somehow gabriel isnt (makes sense) even if it is a kids show, this doesnt excuse the characters (marinette's) stupidity or creepy behavior if they did plan if from the beginning, they would've droped more hints and teasers about it...not randomly and drastically make chloe bad from seemingly outta nowhere, the only clues you can connect is the directors petty tweets and then zoey comming outta nowhere...no offense being a worse queen bee and desprately just trying to be a cheap replacement for the queen bee holder i still pray she gets the bee back and zoey gets a new power but this aint it, im sorry and the whole chloe villian arc already ended and should've concluded at miracle queen. at best this its still just bad writing, at worst (possibly) its the director having a fissy fit over the fandom
dont get me started at ladybugs identity rules not applying to everyone 💀💀💀 (I:E not giving the miraculous to chloe anymore cuz her identity is revealed...but breaking the rule several times, especially in the newer seasons)
If feel like Chloe doesn't want attention she wants LOVE AND FRIENDS. She only had a teddy bear and Adrien,I feel like this is the fault of her parents and not to mention Marinette did mistakes that lead to this but she does not get punished to teach Chloe to get a better person and they don't punish her but Chloe,who is the victim here. I feel like it is just victim blaming.
Your trauma is an explanation for your actions But never an excuse, at the end day Chloe should still be held accountable for the decisions she made in the present day Trying to dismiss everything as her parent's or Marinette's fault just actively removes Chloe's own agency as a character.
I am saying that the reason why this had a chance of happening in the first place is her tutors,Chloe should still be punished but I feel like Andre and Audrey should be punished too. Marinette.... She is still a teen but she SHOULD get the punishment for that level of stalking
@@frisk8632 This only seems to apply to Chloe though. Meanwhile Marinette hasn't faced consequences for her actions - instead having an entire episode created about her having "trauma" as a response to her character being called out.
@@winxclubcomejointheclub6066 Marinette's obsession is there for the comedy. At the end of the day, this show is still also a rom-com as well as a superhero show. It's overexaggerated and unrealistic, and she never gets anywhere with that kind of behaviour.
@@dangerbuffrocky The fact that STALKING and following your crush from France from EUROPE to Shanghai in ASIA isn't funny in my opinion,she Literally knows everything about his personal life and that is creepy! Not funny at all!
of course. let it be clear that I like everyone else, do wish it was a real redemption arc, and for that reason I can't like this arc. but I can't deny that this was a really well written arc regardless
To be honest Chloe got what she deserved in the end of this intense "Revolution." as she had turn on everyone who believe that Chloe would change like Adrien and Miss Bustier while Sabrina is no longer her friend anyway now that she knows the type of person Chloe really is and she still won't acknowledge all her wrong doing or even take responsibility for her action ( Season 3 - Season4- Season 5) since Chloe have no sense of right and wrongs because she's a selfish brat who only cares about herself. To be honest (again) it's partly André's fault for not being a proper father to Chloe back Season 1 -Season 4 because he always let Chloe get away with everything and afraid of his controlling wife instead of acting like a real man and stand up to them in the first place. But I'm glad to see that André had finally take responsibilty for Chloe's action and decided in the last episode to divorce Audrey for good while granted custody for Zoé before resign as Mayor of Paris which explain why Chloe and her mother are in the private plane. If Chloe was more like her half sister Zoey then her life would have been different like in Season 2 but now she became a hateful person in both Season 4 and Season 5 so I'm sorry to have to tell Chloe this but she had no one to blame but herself. If you're still feeling sorry for Chloe in this episode then blame Astruc for changing Chloe's character in the first place.
I guess we really don't talk about failed redemptions. I mean certain villains don't just automatically turn good with ease. For example, Ludo from Star vs the forces of evil relapsed back to being bad so many times. Even Vegate became a bad guy again after being with the Z Fighters for many years. I honestly have no problem with Chloe failing at redemption, I kind of like it. But the problem I have with it is that she falls to far back. I mean Sole Crusher and Queen Banana were honestly too far for me. But I get the jest of what they were trying to do. Season 5 Derision was also pretty inconsistent as well, having Chloe be even that much worser to Marinette and not explain why she pulled back the next year. I feel like Chloe could be that bad, but with Lila's influence. The fail redemption could have worked better, if they have used Lila much sooner.
SPREAD THE WORD I saw a tweet by thomas saying something like "we tried to give her a redemption but it was agreed by all writers that it felt too off character of her" i still can't wrap my head around this bs. i mean it's possible, but it was only the second season, and it had been only like what, 2 years of miraculous at that point? and how the heck it feels off character of her to become better and grow up but not everyone else? like andre??? like if it felt off character of chloe to become a better person, it DEFINITELY should feel off character of andre as well, if not a lot more! he's a grown ass man!! thomas also said "anyone in her place wouldn't want to change" yeah if that's the case, anyone in Andre's place wouldn't too ig?? what's wrong with wanting to be better even when if it's coming from a place of privilege? Thomas is focusing so much in arguing "realism" that he literally forgets it's a fictional character we're talking about. and most of all you can use these exact types of characters to show that anyone, ANYONE, can grow and be a better person if they wish to be. to say a 14 year old is irredeemable is just too messed up.
But didn't the show say that Andre wasn't happy in his position as mayor? I still think his redemption is bs, but it doesn't exactly meet the same criteria as Chloe in that she was happy where she was without a redemption.😊
Can you please make a video about Andre, because I can’t tell if what he did at the end of season 5, leaving Chloe with her mother, was a good choice or a bad one.
@Miguel-nl4uc I mean. that's a yes or no isn't it? Andre could try being the greater person and push Chloe towards change and be strict for once. but at the same time. given his mindset, attempting to do that would have been more damaging to himself. it's not exactly a good person decision. but a decision he made so that he could be happy again for once
Look at my list of characters that had development or Talk No Jutsu: Anakin Skywalker Kevin E. Leven Lena/Cure Amour Eileen/Cure Beat Sabrina/Cure Passion Twila/Cure Scarlet Starlight Glimmer Kiana/Cure Cosmo Diamond Tiara Discord Machi Kuragi Kotomi Ichinose Eri Aizawa Prince Zuko Samurai Jack And Ashi Riku Saix Xion Amanda/Cure Echo Katsuki Bakugo Red (Angry Birds) Lord Seventh (Naruto) Sasuke Uchiha Princess Sara Mikaru Harriet/Cure Flora Orochimaru Penny (Zatch Bell!) The Cyniclons (Tokyo Mew Mew) Black Lady/Chibiusa Princess Nehelenia The Specture Sisters Fiore Nash/Shark Valon Bakura Vegeta, Shadow The Hedgehog ,Terra Ventus & Aqua,Terra Branford Lea/Axel Corina Bucksworth Kimberly Mysner Marik Ishtar Ken (Digimon) Dabby & Dina (Mecard) Rue (Princess Tutu) Jin Kazama Akito Sohma Yami Yugi/Atem Jaden Yuki/Yubel Naminé Silver Spoon Mai Valentine Rafael Alister King Dimitri Zane Trusdale Akiza Izinski Raimoundo Pesdora Lord Rafal, Prince Demande Rebecca Hawkins α Patroklos Alexander & Pyrrha Ω Alexandra Hortensia,Ivy Mauvier,Veyle Sage Sora Perse Cloud Strife, Shadow The Hedgehog And Finally: Princess Iris Princess Auriana Talia & Logan from Deadpool & Wolverine.
The Interesting part is Chloe was never going to get a redemption arc, since Astruc left town, leaving his childhood bully unsupervised, some writer wrote her a arc behind Astruc's back, and it was too late to delete it, but not too late to ruin it, My theory is, when Astruc found out his bully would get a redemption arc and couldn't remove it, I think he played into the arc, only to rip the rug off of our feet, to make us depise her even more the only thing about MLB could be considered genius is how Tom managed to set up a perfect fanfiction with his ex to have a fictional daughter (Marinette) to deomize his childhood bully, all disguise in a children's show about superheros
20:28 no. Not the rubies. One ruby was apways VERY clearly evil and another ruby manipulated Steven into thinking she changed when in reality she just wanted the spaceship back
so basicly Miraculous's story is about a girl making mutliple mistakes, and trying her best to rectify those mistakes. Because Marinette has made alot of mistakes during her superhero-carreer but that doesnt mean she is not worthy of being a superhero; everyone makes mistakes but not everyone tries to fix them. In my opinion this is was Miraculous is about (atleast for Marinette's story line) and alot of people do not realize this and trash talk Marinette for every single mistake she makes, and honestly makes the fandom just so toxic
Even though I hate the fact she didn't get a redemption arc, the writing in the leadup to miracle queen wasn't actually that bad. Even though I strongly disagree with you, I think maybe I can understand
@@GoatMinori buddy I did want the redemption arc too. you can accept the writing is good but not like it cause it's isn't what you wanted. I'm like that here too
I sounded way too angry in this video lmao
Trust me, man. This is tame compared to other rants, reviews, and video essays I've seen, especially for Miraculous.
@xhunterhuntsx true true. but I was trying to sound impartial. I consider this a fail on my end lol
@@flakyseasalt tho I have some points I kinda need to bring up
Zuko was also one of the characters that had failed redemption as well during season 2 (tho to his defense he had actual redemption in season 3)
And there’s also bluebird in Steven universe future she hasn’t been redeemed (even tho she got completely disappeared-) and jasper kinda-
They did it because miraculous is one of these stories that shed the light on the fact that in life you can find certain people that aren't redeemable and what not even though you try your best yes is one of the sad truth of life but in the end it's understandable and everything and all you can do is have hope for what you've done for that person someday can have a positive outcome until then Chloe has to learn all her failures happen for a reason and that she has to be open to make the change herself based off the things she has learned Chloe had to fail in order to realize how horrible she's been so in general it makes sense☝
So basically that's the truth for some Redemption Arts you have to fail even in the long run in life to realize that you have to change you have to fail in order to succeed even if it takes quite a long time for the lesson to sink in and for the type of person Chloe was she had to fail quite a bit based on the person she is to learn from Marinette in her other half ladybug to learn this cuz she was deeply rooted and insecurities in the obsession with being better and above everybody to a high extent regardless of what the words that could have been said to try and change her she had to go on a deep journey to learn this a journey that required a lot of failure to learn what she had lost in the end
I respectfully disagree. As someone who is not a Chloe fan anymore, if someone were to ask me what my thoughts about Chloe's failed redemption arc are, I will forever say that it's not genius writing at all. It's horribly executed. In my opinion, if they really wanted me to believe that Chloe is irredeemable, then they should have executed it better. They should have just made her the female version of Gary from rockstar's bully game, rather than a dead horse who keeps on getting beaten over and over again and nobody likes it when a writer keeps on beating a dead horse. Like okay I get it she's irredeemable, she can never change, but can we please move on? Chloe's arc is so repetitive and boring. Like I just don't want to see her on screen anymore. Anyways, great video, dude! Your channel is highly underrated!
One thing I will never ever ever ever understand is... Since when did Chloe give Marinette PTSD?
@@eyelove_owlcity I think that was brought up in flashbacks that Chloe is behind much of marinettes creep behaviours in the past seasons and also much of her lack of faith in herself cause Chloe keeps putting her down most.
kinda true, most episodes she has a hate boner for marinette for no known reason.
Derision is just a terrible episode, that actively contradicts so many things the show had established. If Chloe could get Socqueline expelled how come the entire class openly laughs at her on numerous occasions? Nobody brings up what happened to Socqueline throughout seasons 1-4 because?
@@nicholasrodinos4701 I agree with you in everything you say, I dare say that this is the worst episode of the series in general if it weren't for Queen Banana or the last day 2
A villain doing villainous things
What a boring scenario right
Every villain in every story keeps doing bad stuff most of the times like what is wrong with that
To your logic nearly every villain in fiction is boring
Joker, green goblin, kaido
All of them does bad things constantly to show you that they are bad people and irredeemable thus making them boring because they are beating a dead horse
Chloe's motivation wasn't good from the beginning making her hero journey in the direction of failure
AND YOU IGNORING THIS DETAIL COMPLETELY
That's why it's good writing because people won't actually catch it if they didn't give attention
@@nicholasrodinos4701 not brining it up is pretty simple honestly
it's natural for people to forget about something or not have it in their mind after a good while
While I was disappointed that Chloe failed, I saw it coming. But then I am fully adult. My daughter was more disappointed than I was. She is 13. When I was 14, I would have made the same mistakes Marinette did. I agree, this arc was good, no matter how much I don't like the ending.
@@snoww3771 yeah. they hate for the redemption had nothing to do with bad writing. most of us hate it cause man it should have been a redemption. which is a good reason to hate on it
I'm a young adult, and I was sure she was going to become a better person permanently. How did you see that coming?
@@ethancox9737 It was clear that what Chloe really cared about was being seen as a hero - her bragging, setting up the "Bee signal", her impatience about getting "her" Miraculous, when she said she was giving Ladybug another chance.
@@snoww3771 Yeah, but that could have led to her becoming a good person for real if the writers had been willing. And anyway, her being so much worse in seasons 4 and 5 made no sense to me.
The way I see it, the only way this girl could be redeemed was if she faced the consequences of her actions. Even if there were moments of her seeming to be going towards the redemption route, she constantly went back to her bad behavior towards the end of the episode. Plus, most bullies don’t change their ways. Even in adulthood, some just continue to be bullies.
I agree with this, chloe had too much power for a 14 y/o and she's intoxicated by it and her father didn't even try to correct her , and marinette didn't learn anything about chloe even though she's been tormented for years, she only care about fame
Someone sent me a link to this video and you're honestly on to something here.
Looking back on these episodes, Chloe doesn't seem to have changed all that much. While I lament that, I can definitely appreciate you for finding immense value in these types of stories.
Thank you for giving me a wider perspective on this.
@@ACriticalRetrospective appreciated! I agree I wish Chloe did change. but I still think this was well done
Yeah, I’m gonna start sending people this video more. Chloe’s failed redemption could’ve been a real wake up call if it weren’t for the power of wilful ignorance.
@@mattphillips3537 YESSSIR
Id love to see all your thoughts about this in a vid wheneverr u can
The reason I hate this arc is because they made her an unfunny character unlike in Season 1 and it is annoying to me.
I loved S2 Chloe, but you are right, i just wish they actually made her a real redemption arc
@@P29-s7x agreed
Fr
Agree, this way she's just becoming a place holder for her sister
Jeremy zag said something about a miraculous character dying in a plane crash on their mom’s private plane which character has that only Chloe
Who knows, in the state we saw her in season 5, she appears to be at rock bottom. And the saying goes: "from rock bottom, there's only one place to go, and that is up". Meaning that it's at her lowest point that she now is even more likely to be redeemed (or who knows, maybe she can find a lower place than rock bottom).
As someone who LOVES Chloe and wishes she was redeemed, this is fully fair!! I get the idea of a false redemption and I fully understand it!! While I dislike Chloe’s failed redemption, I can FULLY understand the appeal /gen
@@forkalamari6093 yeah. dislike the arc for not making it a proper redemption everyone wanted, not for its writing
False redemption?
If the failed redemption arc had been intentional and better executed, I'd be on board with it. Like, having a character that DOES change but that still unintentionally relapses into her nasty bully behavior subconsciously would have been interesting jn my opinion. The way I see it is that sometimes when a certain behavior/way of thinking is so ingrained in someone that the person has internalized it, they are very likely to do it again even if they regret it and try to change. It's similar to how prejudice works.
There’s a scene in Revelation where Marinette literally states to Adrien “Sometimes the good we think we see in some people is just a reflection of our own, and we end up being fooled by our own kindness”.
I wouldn't have really had a problem with a failed redemption if it was written good, but I don't think it was. Her writing is especially bad in season 4 and 5, where we are supposed to see the end result of this failed redemption. But it just becomes so obvious they WANT us the viewers to hate her, which is really weird. And I think the biggest problem is that out of all the people who got some sort of redemption in this show, Chloe's was written the best. It was actually a slow progress, happening throughout seasons, meanwhile everyone else gets just a single moment basically and suddenly they are good. Another problem is the bee replacement. They could've had a better bee holder and show us that she is actually better, but instead we are just told she is better (again, they want us to hate Chloe), and we get Chloe's long lost sister with little to no personality whose only purpose was to be a bee replacement during season 4. (In season 5 they tried to make her a better character but in my opinion it was too late). Also, I just think Queen Bee would have been much more interesting, as she was someone who accidentally got the Miraculous, unlike everyone else who were chosen by Marinette. It was something new. And then there is Marinette. I won't blame her for her mistakes, some of them are well written actually. But the problem comes with the end results, and the show never really blaming Marinette. The last moment that really pushed Chloe to the bad side was that Marinette chose Kagami instead of her during the season 3 finale. Chloe was told she can't be Queen Bee because her identity is know. But guess whose identity Hawkmoth knows too? Kagami's! And again, I think it was a well written mistake by Marinette. But then it's never really addressed (or atleast not this part of the mistake, as she made multiple mistakes during that moment) and she continues to let everyone else be a superhero during season 4 even tho their identity's were found out. The only person she didn't allow to be one was Chloe, and yeah she doesn't like her, but she never learn this isn't okay.
So yeah, I don't like how they did this, and as long as they'll want us to hate her like ever since season 4, I won't account Chloe for anything and continue to like her, since it's just forced and bad writing.
Finally, someone who can argue without insulting the characters or the writing. 😭❤️
Failed redemption?
I do agree, but I think there is one difference between the 2, everyone knows Chloe is Queen Bee while Hawkmoth is the only one who knows about Ruoko(I can’t spell her superhero name). That’s probably why Ladybug went with her instead of Chloe. Not that I disagree with your statement, just thought that was why Marinette made that choice. Thank you
@@tarabotelho6692 couldn't any of them like ask the kwamis if they can have a way to change the suit or something like that is literally magic bullshit
@@evisl.w6552 Maybe, but when she revealed the Miraculous it was live. She practically said “LoOk At Me, LaDyBuG tRuStS Me!!!” Then again, this point might not matter. What do you think?
I am relieved that she didn’t change. Many bad people in reality Choose not to change, Even though they have many opportunities to do so. I rarely see this represented in stories.
Agreed
But this isn't reality, and if it was Chloe would have gotten repmanded (even if it went no were) and Mari would probably be dead... Or moved schools
Agree
In fiction we look for coherence, not realism.
Well at least someone finally gets it for Chloe's character.
Personally back in season 2 I was rooting for her to change when she became Queen Bee as she learns bit by bit of empathy, but as the seasons progress more and more we see that in ways she wasn't even remotely trying to change her character and was just taking advantage of everyone and everything around her. Just as she was used to having to receive things on a silver platter (or in her case gold platter) and not to actually earn them herself. It's the same way with her abandonment and loneliness and the need to be a hero so all can see, we see that she feels that Ladybug wasn't giving her a chance to be Queen Bee when really Ladybug/Marinette didn't want to give her the Bee Miraculous for her own safety for herself and her loved ones of not being a main target for villains. Plus around seasons 2-4 when Ladybug was giving Miraculous to heroes temporarily is was a privilege to fight and be called upon while to Chloe was claiming entitlement for herself.
But there's still the issue that Chloe's character while yes if she had dropped her selfish self entitled ego she still would've been Queen Bee. But she lacks of what it really means a hero besides the name, powers, costumes and the fame and attention. To be a hero is to know to use your powers for the sack of others, to know and how to work together as a team and of course the responsibility of being a hero and to have patience when called upon.
It's just the same as her self proclaim Queen alias and status, there's more to being a Queen then a title and crown, it's about judge of character and learn what is right for those around her for the greater good. But as we've seen she only thought of herself instead of others.
And what happened in Miracle Queen was a turning point for her, yes Hawk Moth played with her emotions of abandonment and loneliness. But after words it was a turning point of her actions that she didn't take full responsibility for and continues to blame Ladybug for not making her Queen Bee anymore. And with the seasons of 4-5 we see her going more downhill and becoming more and more of a pain as she still as a vendetta for Ladybug of banishing her from the team and not being Queen Bee anymore, demanding more from her father and making Sabrina more and more into a slave than a friend. All because she didn't get what she wanted as Queen Bee and be a hero that everyone can adore and count on.
Yes I know she was still a kid, teen at most, but everyone knows when mistakes are made and takes full responsibility for their actions Chloe doesn't learn from her mistakes and take responsibility instead leaves it for others to pick up and blame others as well. And as we've seen everyone has their own development and growth and knows what they want in the future, while Chloe proclaims she doesn't need to as she will remain rich and powerful. And more and more in season 5 we've seen Chloe gone to far and pushing people as everyone had their limits with her. From Adrien finally having enough of her ending their friendship when Chloe proclaims that apologizing those with lower status were against her, Sabrina and her father Andre had their limits pushed to far and decided enough was enough. Seeing as Sabrina had enough of Chloe as well as Lila (Chloe unaware that she was basically Lila's puppet as well controlling her) and cut ties with her, and Andre finally actually grow a backbone and admitting he was responsible for spoiling Chloe and punished her in the end of the Revolution episode.
But Revolution was a big one at the most, seeing as how far as Chloe as Queen Mayor had made all of Paris a literal nightmare under her reign, but having enough of her dictatorship and thanks to Ladybug's encouragement all of Paris has finally had enough and fought back finally kicking her off that high horse of hers.
And when lost said power basically she ended up with no one to turn to, no friends no respect from adults, and even no love from her mother Audrey as we've seen her being all proud of Chloe having power and when lost said power and ruined the family name and reputation Audrey spoke of coming down hard on her and controlling her life and education meaning that Chloe would have no free privilege and immunity power as she once had. And thinking she was the one to get the last word had been the final straw for the tables to turn, with the call from Marinette was the one to slap her in the face with the harsh truth as she has no one and no power over anymore and that she was the 'Utterly Ridiculous' one.
That call was it to finally get her to see of what she has become and that she was the one to put her self down that dark path all because she chose her self entitlement, her rich status and having Power, than trying to change her self and learn about empathy and the welfare of others.
Man that's a lot out of me and my personal opinions. But at least in this video someone finally gets it enough.
You definitely cooked with this analysis surrounding Chloe's unchanging behavior throughout the series
Loved reading every bit of this
Never lose hope for Chloe's return to the good guys.
@ but it depends really. Is she gonna straighten out and actually change or just be the Royal pain she is and out for revenge. It would go either way. All depends on character of course if she’s really going to try.
Even Ms Bustier after many times of believing Chloe can change, was finally pushed to her limit like “you know what, I’ve tried so many times and she’ll won’t listen….She’ll NEVER listen” and lost her cool in the episode where Chloe was exiled from Paris.
@ and don’t forget that Ms Bustier was pregnant too and didn’t need any stress over one teen who was unwilling to learn and be the total royal pain as she’s always is that had her way and got her fired. Ms Bustier is a kind person to everyone no matter what, but Chloe was taking advantage of kindness and not do or care about a thing for others.
Well now that she and her equally rotten mother are exiled to London, Chloe will possibly get a taste of her own medicine as she’ll probably be treated like how she had treated others as doormats and losers, and having no adult figure to give her respect the same way she never gave any adults respect back in Paris.
Still I’m surprised that during that call to try to get the last beat down to Marinette that Marinette didn’t tell Chloe something like “I’m doing some growing up, when are you gonna start to grow up for once!” I mean throughout the seasons we’ve seen everyone has their growth and futures all plan out while Chloe still behaves like a spoiled little child.
Honestly... I NEVER Trust The Idea of Chloe being a Miraculous Holder on account of what Her Character is Like...
@@glaceonfrost2342 yur
What about Sabrina and Kim? After what they’ve done, would you trust them with a miraculous?
@@jamestolbert1856 I only trust two characters with that and that's Luka and Aliya. everyone else I am sus af about
@@flakyseasalt I’d trust Adrien, Juleka and Nino
@@jamestolbert1856 Adrien speaks for himself. but I don't feel like julika or nino has done enough to warrant being holders (at the time they were given it)
You know, looking back at these scenes then you can really tell what Chloe's problem is. If you recall what happened in Miraculer, Chloe was very down about not being Queen Bee again and was made a fool by Lila. Immediately after this, she basically started insulting Sabrina out of the blue. From this scene it seemed like Chloe was only doing this to make herself feel better by pointing out how much better she was than Sabrina. Chloe's problem in my opinion, why she couldn't change, is because Chloe loves power, over people or things. For instance, during her life her mother left her when she was little and wanted nothing more than her approval and attention. Her father in a desperate attempt started spoiling Chloe, giving her everything she wanted. In his fear of losing Chloe, her father started to do whatever Chloe wanted. This started giving Chloe a power complex. Even how she treated Marinette in Derision, even though how unaccurete it is, shows how Chloe loves to have power over someone. Even her downfall episode and final episode proves this. During Heartbreaker she was frustrated that she couldn't do anything, especially when her signal light wasn't working. She was also heartbroken over Ladybug didn't have her help out. So when Hawkmoth, the person who akumatized her parent, offered her power she took it. Then in her finally, after losing everything and everyone, she immediately called Marinette to basically gloat about Adrien leaving and how Marinette was going to suffer because of it. It was like she was trying to keep what little power she had left, basically the power of a bully. Chloe 's problem is her obsession with power and that's the reason why she could never change.
Genuinely, seeing a failed redeem arc would have been good for me and was immensely cathartic as an adult. My uncles are not good people. But several times they tried to be, only to inevitably fall back on old habits despite everything my family tried to support them.
The problem with what happened is because Chloe is replaced awfully by some one dimensional character versus Chloe who had more depth during queen bees scenes. Chloe deserved to get redeemed. She deserved better. Chloe was betrayed first by ladybug and this isn’t a bias. It’s literally canon. The whole Chloe can’t get her miraculous because she had her identity known. Ladybug was a hypocrite and let kagami use her miraculous again after this rule was enforced on Chloe. Chloe gave ladybug a taste of her medicine by betraying her like how ladybug betrayed her. Nothing was smart about this. At all.
Everyone seems forget Chloe's actions, especially from season 1. I've always hated Chloe for not stop bullying anyone.
Actually just season 2 everyone was pretty aware how bad she was in season 1
The sad fact is, Chloe's failed redemption acts as a very important lesson. While yes, people can change if given the chance, there are some who just don't. Chloe never took any actual steps to bettering herself, never caught herself in bad moments, and she enjoyed feeling superior to others and bringing them down. As disappointing as it was to see her not only regress but get worse, it was still a realistic outcome.
She did try tho, I'm not sure what episode it is but she feels bad about causing the akumatization of someone and she says its all my fault to ladybug and I'm pretty sure ladybug encourages her, she uses her own body to shield sabrina from being akumatized, and she sacrificed herself in zombizou to buy lady bug some time. I'm all for a damnation arc and I actually really love tragic characters but I don't think they wrote it well. It also just doesn't make sense from a writing standpoint to introduce Lila and make chloe, the previously lesser evil, worse. It's like they're filling the same role in the story yk. (I'm not a chloe fan btw)
Also that lesson of some people just don't want to change could have been done with Gabriel or Lila. Because why does Gabriel, the man who neglects his son, get a redemption but Chloe can't?
@@thexreaderspeaks to answer your last question
Gabe get redeemed because he saw his mistakes and tried to solve them
He felt guilty and tried to do what he thought is the best for Adrian
Chloe didn't change her motivation
She still seeks attention, she still sees herself better than everyone else thus making her unreasonable, because her motives didn't change
She felt guilty about the akumatization that she is getting attacked by
She doesn't feel guilty most of the times until it affects her
And didn't confirm her feeling of guilt to anyone except ladybug who is the one she wants to get her attention
Protecting people from the akuma is also supporting her motivation which is getting attention ( especially ladybug's ) that doesn't prove she is a good person
What I see the lesson from Chloe characters is : what identifies good and bad People, redeemable and unredeemable people is there motivation not there actions
Bad motivated people will easily turn back to the dark side once they doesn't get what they want ( Chloe )
Good motivated people will realise oneday there bad behaviour and try to redeem themselves because they aren't as selfish and evil as bad motivated people even if they did more horrible things ( examples are gabe , Natalie, Felix)
And lila is the new hawk moth so I don't need to explain why isn't that working for her
17:36
There’s actually a couple of lines of a rant made in a series known as RWBY that I think perfectly sums up what you were saying here: “You can’t just be STRONG, you have to be SMART. You can’t just be DESERVING, you have to be WORTHY.” You and others are completely right about Chloe having what it takes in regard to skills when it comes to being a hero. But just because she has what it takes in skills, just because she’s DESERVING of powers doesn’t mean she’s WORTHY of it, especially since she’s not being smart about how she USES the power she has and ESPECIALLY especially if she doesn’t have the PERSONALITY needed to be one.
This is a bit of a hot take, but I actually like ZOE more than I do CHLOE. Not just as a Miraculous wielder, but as a CHARACTER, and her personality is the biggest reason why. She’s the OPPOSITE of Chloe with her personality. As seen in her introductory episode, Zoe’s CAPABLE of being a bad person, but she ultimately CHOOSES to be good. Chloe on the other hand is CAPABLE of being a good person, but CHOOSES to be bad. And that choice is ultimately what killed her chances of ever being a hero again. Ironically, in her attempts and insistence to prove that she’s both deserving and worthy of being Queen Bee, she ultimately digs her own grave and does the exact OPPOSITE.
@@CharizardFlame yeah ignored most of the zoe hate in the comments. I really like zoe.
As someone who is hyper fixated on both RWBY & Miraculous, I LOVE the fact you made that connection. Cinder and Watt's conversation was something that was REALLY needed by Cinder and honestly, if they want to do anything with Chloe at this point they NEED to have something like that.
@@flakyseasalt You should make a video in defense of her!! AND relate it to the stuff this commentter said like how "he’s the OPPOSITE of Chloe with her personality. As seen in her introductory episode, Zoe’s CAPABLE of being a bad person, but she ultimately CHOOSES to be good. Chloe on the other hand is CAPABLE of being a good person, but CHOOSES to be bad. And that choice is ultimately what killed her chances of ever being a hero again. Ironically, in her attempts and insistence to prove that she’s both deserving and worthy of being Queen Bee, she ultimately digs her own grave and does the exact OPPOSITE."
Yay! Someone else who sees how brilliant Choe's writing truely is. I've been on this site a long time, and been in so many fandoms, and Chloe's story is exactly what fandoms like the MLP:FIM and Steven Universe have been crying out for for over a decade. An antagonist who can not be redeemed. After years and years of villains constantly being redeemed- Discord, Starlight, Sunset, Peridot, the Diamonds, etc- it was really refreshing to see an antagonist not get redeemed for a change.
I've personally always seen Chloe as a tragic character. She has some good in her, but that light was snuffed out by so many bad influences in her life. Audrey's verbal abuse and neglect, Andre spoiling her, and no one being able to stand up to her for fear of her parent's power. Chloe was made and encouraged to be the way that she is, and by the time any consequences for her actions ever happened, she didn't have the necessary skills needed to look at herself.
Chloe is the perfect foil to Marinette. Everything Marinette is, Chloe is the opposite. But people are too obsessed with the story they expected to see how great the story they got actually was.
I think Chloe should have gotten redeemed. She was perfect for the bee miraculous and it seemed like they were setting up a redemption arc for her in season 2.
Lila was introduced at the end of season 1 and became Marinette’s main antagonist later on. She basically replaced Chloe. So it makes sense for Chloe to redeem herself and join ladybug and cat noir but instead, they keep Chloe the same and introduce a whole new character to be the bee holder.
Now all Chloe is a generic bully character who the main bad guys (hawkmoth and Lila) take advantage of from time to time.
The issue is that Chloe CAN and shouldve been redeemed...she has no point in the story bcs lila replaces her as marinettes antagonist and is way worse than Chloe morally
@@Individias Sorry, but while I do believe she had potential, that doesn't mean she SHOULD be redeemed. People like Chloe exist in real life, and kids need to see that some people are beyond help, ALONG with people who CAN be helped.
Not only that, but Chloe's story is a cautionary tale about what can and DOES happen when you raise a child with no consequences. Andre is a permissive parent, who does nothing to correct or teach Chloe for the 1st 14 years of her life. Audrey is an abusive parent who only shows love to her daughter when she acts like a toxic narcissist. Everything in Chloe's life has taught her that she NEEDS to act this way to receive love, and that there is no downside to abusing others. She's incapable of understanding that her actions have consequences, because she was raised to think that to be impossible for her.
Even ignoring Zoe, so long as Chloe acts the way she does, she's the golden child in both her parent's eyes. Kids raised to be golden children very rarely break the cycle of abuse. Chloe's story is incredibly realistic, and serves as a warning to kids what could become of them if they act like Chloe does.
Her failed redemption arc is an important story to tell. It's important for kids who act like her to see what can happen to them. It's important to the kids who know people like Chloe that they don't have to put up with it. It's important to bullying victims who've had their own lives ruined to see someone like their bully get their comeuppance. And it's important to the parents watching with their kids to see the kind of damage permissive parenting can do.
@@MatsuyoRific And what about kids who are like chloe but are given up on? What tale are you trying to tell when the literal worse ppl get redeemed Gabriel and Fliex, but god forbid someone who did try to put in work gets back tracked cause lf a hate boner.
@@MatsuyoRific my question is why does Gabriel get redeemed? Why is he seen by everyone as a hero when he was the Villain? Jagged Stone was irresponsible, abandoning his kids and all, but now he's a good dad? Chloe could of gotten redeemed too and Gabriel could be evil alongside Lila
We want chloe to become good and become good in season 6 😢
The main reason why the arc failed is because Thomas still holds a grudge against his elementary bullies, not highschool, not college, but his ELEMENTARY BULLIES which chloe is based off of one of them
@@nitroblaze6696 I honestly haven't seen where that statement came from. if you have a link of that interview or tweet wherever it's from do show.
@flakyseasalt many people have mentioned it, I just can't remember which ones but you usually find them in other Rants/Analyses, I mean it seems believable since Marinette is pretty much based off of Thomas' hypothetical daughter with his ex
@@nitroblaze6696 that's why I ask is the thing. so many rants and people say this happened but I could never get sources when I ask
Her is a tip
If you want to enjoy a show
Treat it as it's own things
When exactly the show confirmed that ??? Never
Because it's not important to the plot
You have a 25 min video explaining why is was good and your argument isn't even from the show??
Seriously if you didn't know that info would you love that arc?
@@SkEi-y3b That don't bother me too much man. My thing is if you have this argument ,I need a source. cause everyone who has told me this hasn't told me the source. I wanna know where this is
10:34 THIS! Anytime i saw this scene after Miracle Queen, my response to her saying all of this was "okay, so what are you gonna do about it?" And sure enough, she did nothing. Exceptional video.
Just about everything you said is exactly what I've been trying to tell others for ages!
@@TARDIgirl21 thanks!
@flakyseasalt I really enjoyed your video.
17:00 The problem with that is that her being Queen bee from her point of view is being a good person, which fair enough. She did save some when she was Queen bee in heroes day And she did apologize for her actions in Queen wasp.And in zombie zoo. But the problem is that nobody told her that her behavior was unacceptable until she is no longer queen bee. Ladybug could have just simply told her that the real reason why she's not allowed to have a miraculous anymore is because of her behavior. I will also make the argument that she does care about other things like Adrian and Sabrina Her father and her mother. Like does this show seriously think that sabrina is her slave? No She did all of this stuff willingly If she was truly her slave then She would have never had the choice to quit Being with chloe all the time.
@@sophiegerlofs4611 I brought that up saying that in her eyes she is redeemed in her eyes
you are right she wasn't given any real guidance but at the same time we learn through despair bear she knows what are nice things to do she is just inclined towards being an ahole
@@sophiegerlofs4611 also I never said she was a slave I said she is treated like a slave
@@flakyseasalt it's not you it's the creator
@@flakyseasalt when it comes to doing nice things sometimes she dose and sometimes and she doesn't because the show can make up it's mind. She said "I'm suddenly feeling very generous" but then in season 5 she didn't know what generous means. What I was trying to say is that fame and her mother are not the only things that are important to her even in the season 3 finale she clearly cared about her parents. But then season 4 was all like "Nope she doesn't care about her father at all" In soul crusher she said something like I was too soft but then in season 5 she thinks she is perfect and doesn't need to improve and thus she must think off herself as nice or she somehow thinks being mean is perfect.
Girlie Chloe admitted in queen waspthat she was only using sabrina
While it's inspiring to see bad people change, the media often sends the wrong message that "YOU can change a bad person" and Marinette puts that naive observation to practice and it fails.
I like that, because I for one forgave and ignored people who treated me poorly to no avail, it's until I stooped lower than them that I actually made a difference, that being "don't get on my bad side" and not the "work on your manners" that I was hoping for.
I wish more children media wouldn't beat us over the head with this bad lesson because sometimes, it's the right thing to do to hurt someone back, because children or not, bad people exist, I know them all too well and most of them don't learn the lesson until they face punishing consequences.
That being said, I do see why people buy Chloe's "redemption" despite the signs, not because redemption is a popular trope, but because miraculous doesn't work with it's moral lessons properly (rogercop) and Thomas is known for having no grasp on continuity so Chloe acting against her ongoing development in some episodes is easy to brush off
To be fair, Steven Universe and MLP have also toyed with the "you can't help everyone" message.
This deserves more likes, a LOT more likes
Thanks!
Being Queen Bee forced Chloe to be a “good” person as well. In episodes like Queen Wasp or Miracle Queen, she wasn’t the same person. I feel like the biggest mistake ladybug made was not giving Chloe the miraculous. Marinette became a better person because she was constantly ladybug. But Chloe hardly received the miraculous. What Chloe needed was someone who had the strength to stand up for her and the strength to stand up TO HER. Neither Sabrina nor the Mayor had the strength to stand up against her. The only possible regret of someone standing up to her would be Chloe pushing her friend away, such as Adrien. And to be honest, Chloe had the slightest hesitation in the S3 finale. It was ladybug’s fault because she knows better than that, but Chloe is too stubborn to change herself. Feeling like you’re approved or worthy doesn’t boost your ego. It makes her feel loved. The only reason anyone would ever crave something is because they don’t have enough of it.
Why would you give the miraculous to such a terrible person to keep? She is untrustworthy. She may have been forced to be a good person, but no one sane person would trust anybody like Chloe.
@@o.m9514Kim and Sabrina got one despite being awful people
@@Audreyana kim got chosen by master fu because he catched him before falling
He also wasn't sure he's the right person
He chose him because of his fun-loving spirit that he believes is needed for the monkey miraculous since he stated it's a special miraculous
And Sabrina isn't bad she's just a little bit dumb
Even if she did bad stuff with Chloe she was thinking she should be Chloe's minion because her father is the mayors right arm or something
Neither kim nor sab is as bad as Chloe anyway and even if you disagree that doesn't make giving Chloe a miraculous is good that just makes giving kim and sab a miraculous is bad
@SkEi-y3b this is such a cold stretch. Chloe isnt like the worst in the show especially when we have brainwashing terrorist getring redemption. But someone who was not raised well and basically not loved by her mom doesnt deserve anything. What message does thay send out?
@@faith4657 I didn't say Chloe is the worst
Her miserable childhood doesn't justify her bad actions and behaviour
It does give us the reason on why she wants attention and why she is mentally unstable
But keeping her mentality unstable and rejecting the way of changing is her choice and that lead us to the lesson:
Being good isn't just doing some good actions because someone or yo get something, it's when you realise that you had a wrong morale compass that needed fixing and then after fixing your motivation on acting good you can start being a good person without needing anything or anyone to push you to become one
Gabe did this , he realised that he was wrong and shouldn't do whatever it takes for his wife and hurting Adrian, that is why his wish didn't destroy the universe, because it pure wish that used power for the greater good bypassing the terrible consequences sacrificing himself in the process
Have you ever seen chloe sacrificing anything she have for someone not important to her ? No
Because she only does good stuff when being under danger, pressure, or the affection of someone important to her
Believe me, I was also bummed out when the “redemption” got thrown out the window, but I always had this *thing* at the top of my head that made me feel contempt with how the “failed redemption” worked, and I think *you* just proved that. 😅
Honestly, I feel like the reason Chloe didn’t get a redemption arc is because when her redemption arc failed, she didn’t hit rock bottom yet. Haze Clarke said something about it in one of her videos, so props to her for giving me this idea. I feel like for redemption arcs to work, the character in question needs to hit rock bottom in order to realize they need to change to become better. Chloe was pretty much living the lime life when her redemption arc failed, so I don’t think it was going to work that well. I still don’t see why Chloe was expecting to get the bee Miraculous again in “Hearthunter” when back in the episode, “Miraculer,” Ladybug told her she wouldn’t be getting it again. Although, considering her parents were the ones akumatized; I could see why she wanted to help, but they didn’t really care for her all that much, so that’s what stumps me. Another thing is that Chloe wasn’t supposed to get the Bee Miraculous in the first place! She got it by accident and then immediately revealed her identity, which is a big no-no in the superhero world, all because her mother was paying attention to the girl she bullied and not her. I’m guessing the only reason Ladybug did continue to give Chloe the bee Miraculous wasn’t because she trusted her, but to prevent her from throwing a hissy fit and getting akumatized. On that note, I don’t blame Marinette for not trusting Chloe. She literally bullied her for who knows how many years and now the victim is expected to just give her a magic jewel that could destroy the world in the wrong hands? Yeah, no. Not gonna happen.
To be honest, I don't think Chloe's fake redemption is well-written, and while she does things for recognition, it's not that big of a deal. Remembering that in Chloe's life she barely had any attention or positive recognition, she saw that being a superhero gives her what she never had and at the same time she is with the one who inspires her.
It reminds me a bit of Flash Thompson in Spiderman (I know the storys are different) the bully fan of the hero who has a slight redemption based on admiration.
My problem with Chloe's fake redemption is the moment she betrays Ladybug, she was right Ladybug left her to her fate and Heart Hunter was the perfect enemy for Queen Bee, But because of her jealousy she took Ryuko who was not supposed to be a heroine again like her.
And that is the exact reason why she shouldn't be a hero or take a miraculous
Like the show keeps telling us that power shouldn't be used for selfish reasons
She doesn't want to help people like ladybug, she sees herself better than everyone, she wants what ladybug have, the attention
Making her a superhero only going to turn her like homelander the moment ladybug isn't seeing her
Flash from spider man is another story because he to save people, he wanted to be a soldier is some comic books like his father , and in my favourite spectacular spider man he only bullied Peter because he thought it was funny *while* having some morals and then try to get closer to Peter at the end of the series
What's the problem exactly?
That's the best reason they could have pulled to make her turn back
Her idol betrayed her when she wanted to save her parents
And hawk moth gave her what she always wanted which is power and recognising her
Show her true self and true motivations
@@SkEi-y3b The show also shows Marinette using her suit to humiliate Lila because she's jealous, breaking the identity rule with Kagami because she's jealous, and also sabotaging Chloe and Adrien's dance because she's jealous, and she doesn't get any consequences. And about Flash's story I already said that the stories were different but in this case I'm talking more about the Flash from Spectacular who does fulfill what I said even if you think he doesn't, because Chloe did try to get a little closer to Marinette and if you don't believe me watch Animaestro
@@SkEi-y3b The problem is that the series wants to sell it to me as if it were Chloe's fault, or that she is the bad one, when it is Marinette who did not give a damn about her own rules and abandons her to her fate, without mentioning that it is again Marinette who does not receive any consequences, you will tell me that being a guardian is but in reality no, the series already indicated that that was going to happen, it does not matter if Battle of the Miraculous happened or not, plus a season later she still does not give a damn about her own rules and only fixes the problem for Rena Furtive. Not to mention that the price Chloe put to return to evil was to deakumatize her parents, I don't know about you but there I don't see someone who only wants pride. By the way, if my English is terrible, I'm using a translator.
@@orellaminmusic making lila the new hawk moth and nearly destroyed mari life couple of time
Made Chloe turn evil again
Made gabe hate mari even more and send Adrian to London
Are you sure you watch the show ???
Honestly, I still can’t defend Chloe’s failed redemption. Are there people who will never change? Yeah. Not everyone is redeemable. And you know what? I could’ve appreciated the damnation arc if it was framed as a sort of tragic story, and I have to give you some credit for pointing out how they set it up. But the framing of it all as “Chloe is Irredeemable” rather than “Chloe is doomed to fail at her redemption because of the people around her and what she’s done.” Is what ruined it for me…mostly from Tommy boi, but even BOTM has traces of this. Nobody takes accountability for having chloe turn out the way she did, especially Marinette. She didn’t even bring up the fact that she trusted Chloe once and showed more concern for master fu rather than allowing Chloe to be manipulated by hawk moth…might not be true, but still. And no, I’m not saying Chloe should be forgiven for her past actions. She did a lot of bad things across the series, and it was her choice to stab ladybug in the back, but as you brought up, she COULD have been redeemed and she wasn’t, and they frame it all as HER fault instead of Hawk Moth’s manipulation, her father never disciplining her, Ladybug boosting her ego and having her be with her mother, and her mother…being her mother (which they do acknowledge but in a sort of “a bad mother is no excuse for being a shit person” sort of way…as if there weren’t a few other factors that shaped her into the person she is).
And you know what? I probably would’ve been okay with Chloe being a villain or being more malicious, maybe the possibility of her finding out ladybug’s identity…but then sole crusher and queen banana happened…and it felt like the writers were trying to spite the people who gave a damn about Chloe and tried to force Zoe down our throats, give her the bee miraculous the episode after her debut, proclaim her to be “the real queen bee” (even if the voice actress doesn’t agree), have people praise her as if she was Jesus, bash Chloe and Queen Bee as a whole, and had the balls to end with “Maybe this will help Chloe be a better person.”….after everything that’s happened, that felt like a slap in the face, and wouldn’t you know, next episode, she wants Adrien locked up in his house…real classy writers.
Apologies for the long rant. I just cared so much about this. Even as someone who wanted Chloe to be a villain, I still hated what the writers did to her. I still appreciate you pointing out how they planted seeds of it failing. It’s just everything from BOTM onwards and Tommy boi that made me hate it.
@@ASLB247 gotcha. don't worry I understand where a lot of this is coming from
@ hey, thanks for understanding. Again, you did bring up good points here.
@@ASLB247 and so have you. thesr analysis are kinda here for my own mental notes if I ever were to try something like this. there is a lot I despise about chloes writing just like you. but I can see that there was at least something that was tried here
I genuinely think it wasn't the shows intention. but the idea of a show taking full advantage of our better nature is pretty interesting regardless
I'm fine with Chloe not being redeemed, they just did a poor job trying to get me believe she could ever meaningfully change, and it could've worked if Chloe were allowed to make progress, only for something to happen that causes her to backslide. I personally take issue with Miraculous writing its teen girl villains as more evil and less sympathetic than Gabriel Agreste, the grown man who abuses his son, and torments all of Paris just to bring his wife back. I loathe how they try to turn Andre into a victim of Chloe, even though season 1 made it abundantly clear that Andre does abuse his power to get what he wants (like in Rogercop where he fired Roger for not arresting Marinette despite their being flimsy circumstantial evidence pointing to her guilt, or in Darkblade where they implied he played dirty to win the election.)
Gabe changed his motivation before his death and tried to do what he thought was right and the best thing thus making him redemption worthy
Chloe didn't change her motives and still sees herself above everyone
Gabe did more horrible things than chloe but gabe changed and sacrificed himself while chloe didn't
THANK YOU! Finally, someone who gets it. I was once bitter about Chloe getting a redemption too, but then I realized what the writers were actually trying to do and actually ended up liking her failed redemption. It was the story of someone who was given the chance to change but was unable to due to her being too proud to answer to the people she has hurt which ultimately ended up biting her in the butt in "Revolution".
The stuff that happened in revoulotion made no sense I kinda feel bad for her after season 3 I know she was bad but they started making her act kinda dumb an out of character
Instead, Chloe will have redemption. Jeremy Zag will make her one of the good guys again! Never lose hope for Chloe's return to the good guys.
@@gianpaolovillani6321 I've lost hope in a Chloe redemption
@gianpaolovillani6321 I wouldn't be too sure about that, because I believe Thomas Astruc is still the director moving forward and he's made it pretty clear that he isn't going to redeem Chloe, so we should respect his decision and move on. Plus, it would be pretty weird to have Chloe go through all that stuff about never being redeemed in the first place and showing that she isn't willing to change, only to have her change anyway in the future.
@Ekenebricks She wasn't out of character at all. You were just fooled into believing that it was out-of-character by the narrative. Notice how despite all the help she was given she never gave up bullying? That's because she didn't want to give it up because she derives joy from that and that's why her redemption failed. Chloe is a character all about privilege and power and "Revolution" gave her all the privilege and power she could have before having it stripped from her, finally delivering her the comeuppance she deserved. Yes, she had a neglectful mother, but all the suffering here is something she brought upon herself.
18:45 and mind you, even in the script for the episode "Ladybug", it clearly states that Chloe and Sabrina didn't get akumatized for different reasons and "they couldn't care less about what happened to Marinette".
It’s like when Chloe took one step forward, next episode she took 50 steps back
@@66DoodleGal in the same episode she be taking steps backwards
To be honest, I like how Chloe failed to be redeemed. What I dislike is what they do with her after, she was so developed and would have been perfect as part of the main villain cast but they just pushed her to the side
I think that was the point. Chloe tried to go to that upper echalant in the villain hierarchy because she thought she was that good. Instead, she was the one being played, and she didn't realize it until it was too late.
@dangerbuffrocky yes your idea is on point, exactly on point
But i still think they count have treated her villain arc in s4,5 better
Not making her more important or anything, just making her writing better
@@SkEi-y3b 100%. They were on to a great concept, but the execution fell flat, which is the case for a lot of things in the show.
@dangerbuffrocky yes
Me as a person enjoys good concepts even if it was flat
But these days most people keeps talking about things in the show that either small problems but everyone keeps yapping about them
Or things that aren't even problem it just they didn't like it and started attacking
The trope of redemption has been so overused in shows nowadays that it was refreshing to see a character get the chance at redemption and squander it. It was so nice... until Season 4 and Season 5 came around. Some things i did not agree with:
A) In season 3, it is a big plot point that Chloé cannot be Queen Bee anymore because Gabriel knows who she is. It makes sense... But then in Season 4, after Gabriel finds out the identity of all the temporary heroes, Ladybug still trusts them with Miraculous. Not to mention in Kuro Neko, they state that you can change your suit if you change your personality, meaning if Chloé changed, she could change her suit as well.
B) The existence of Zoe. So when Season 4 was announced, it was also announced that there would be a new Bee Holder. There were some theories, like a future Chloé (since it was stated a character from the future would appear) or a Chloé undergoing a persona after Miracle Queen. But then it's revealed to be Chloé's... half-sister? That was never mentioned before and implies Audrey cheated on Andre? And is the complete opposite of Chloé and becomes friends with Marinette? Feels like a complete SI, especially considering she gets a Miraculous in her second appearance.
C) Chloé's defeat and favoritism. So Chloé, who overthrew her father, became the Mayor of Paris and willingly worked with Monarch, is banished from Paris and goes to NY. I have no problems with this. However, then you have a character like Felix, who had no problem giving Gabriel every other Miraculous Ladybug had in her yo-yo, tipping the scales further in the villains favor, all for the sake of the Peacock Miraculous, just to save his own ass, is allowed to not only roam free, but keep the Peacock Miraculous full time? Heck, Gabriel, the man who had no problem starting WORLD WAR 3, is allowed to be seen as a hero at the end of Season 5. Seems like Chloé fate was more because Astruc hates her and less because the story makes sense.
@@dspace4514 Ill start by saying firstly that none of these points properly pertain to chloes story.
got hawkmoth finding their identities out. I'm pretty sure season 4 was building up to that backfiring hard cause marinette started to treat this like fun with friends.
as for Felix. I'm pretty certain ladybug really wants to do something about him but Felix is just so hard to track that it was just is what it is
I think that ladybug gave that excuse because she doesn't want Chloe to be a holder in the first place
Mari have this weird habit to put the blame on another problem because she doesn't have the solution, like when she made her Adrian problem because of ladybug
So this is putting more pressure on the questions ' who's fault was Chloe's failed redemption, is it Chloe's because she had bad motivation or ladybug's because she hates Chloe '
Ladybug keeping the hero's actually showing you that ladybug have problems with Chloe herself making the situation even more complicated
Weather you believe Chloe could change if ladybug actually took care of her or not it's your choice
I agree Chloe in season 5 and 4 wasn't very good writing so I'm not going to argue about it
Felix and Gabe changed there motivation and recognised they were wrong thus making them worthy of redemption
Chloe just wanted attention and power and still sees herself above everyone else
I don't see any problems with someone very bad to become good while someone is lesser bad than him stayed evil
Like with your logic if someone steels 1 dollar every day and didn't become good then people who stole a bank should become become in prison forever because if the first person didn't change then they also aren't and should be in prison forever
@SkEi-y3b I saw it as it's everyone's fault. Chloe had the wrong approach but she also had the wrong advices
I completely agree
Most people believe that she should’ve been redeemed in season two or three, but still have hope that she will be redeemed in the future, or they think that she will never be redeemed and was never supposed to be redeemed
I’ve tried explaining to people that she was not supposed to be redeemed in season two but she can still be redeemed, but I’ve never been able to find the right wirds
This video almost completely describes how I feel about Chloe
Chloe is a rich girl who was spoiled rotten by her father and constantly belittled, and put down by her mother. This shaped her to be mean and entitled because that’s how she felt she could get the love of her parent, the fact that she was correct in that assumption, especially when it came to her mother Didn’t help her become better. She was given multiple chances by her classmates by ladybug and by the world to change, but the only reason why she took them was not because she genuinely wanted to change, but because of the fame and recognition she would get by being a superhero and working with ladybug, when ladybug had to take her miraculous away, Chloe lost the incentive. She had to change and completely turned evil the last strand of good she had being tossed aside she gradually got worst and worse with her personality and entitlement which eventually caused her to lose everything at the end of season five
I agree that Marinette took the wrong approach when helping Chloe and I can’t believe I didn’t see it before And now that I’m thinking about it, you’re right this is a very creative choice for the riders to make. I’m planning on watching miraculous again very soon and I’m going to be looking at Chloe’s redemption through this perspective to try and get a better understanding because the more I think about it the more it all makes sense
In conclusion, I don’t think Chloe was wasted potential. I think Chloe wasted her potential I believe that it’s a realistic to still redeem her, but just as realistic to not redeem her because Chloe is still a child she can still change if she really wants to, but if she makes the choice not to change , then she won’t
But I do agree with Chloe fans on one thing if she isn’t going to get redeemed, then her story should just end at Revolution
The part of this video that definitely sold me if I wasn’t already was22:36
When you said that it was almost like we were in a toxic relationship with her
This comment is getting pretty long so I will just end it with this
Chloe’s failed redemption was genius and no matter what happens with her character in the future. I won’t change my mind on that.
@Bridgynoir Thank you! I am glad you enjoyed the whole video!
This vid actually ATE,CONSUMED,DEVOURED (repeat)😖😖😖
This genuinely gave me the closure I needed surrounding her arc… it was only ever, at most, half a character derailment ;-;
I respectfully disagree my friend
@@madalitsokakhuta-banda5668 and I don't mind 👍
20:34 WORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD everything that u tie into this arugment is so well done keep the effort up!!!
Fun fact, in the Hebrew dub, chloe is voiced by Talya Barkey, who also does various characters in the show like tomoe tsurugi, the teachers bustier and mendeleviv, majestia and orikko. Other roles of her include yasmin in the bratz franchise, Anne-Marie in all dogs go to heaven, atomic betty in the show of the same name, twilight sparkle, goldie delicious and queen chrysalis in my little pony: friendship is magic, Jessica allspice, etta the han, hanna, veronica, macy, some of the sheep, a badger, dr. Betty, a vet, Freddy's mom, inga, Juanita, ivana sugardadsky, Shelia, prunella, and the fox cheerleader in back at the barnyard, Ashley in the boys, uniqua in the backyardians, arlene in Garfield gets real and Garfield pet force, Millie Burtonburger in kid vs kat, mrs. And grandma SquarePants, nancy O'Malley, sometimes karen and occasionally gary in SpongeBob SquarePants, and so so much more.
Ppl thinking she will actually not stay a villain when she is basically a girl Malfoy. Malfoy himself needed to grow up first to change his ways, you can't expect still teenage Chloé to know better.
That was the point of my video. Chloe didnt know better. and no one actually tried to teach her how to know better. No one actually gave any effort to teach chloe
this changed my perspective on the situation. solid analysis, great video!
Season 2 Chloe is really peak 😭😭, but the core is Chloe shouldn't reveal her identity in front of everyone, if she didn't reveal it none of this will happen, and She could still be Queen Bee until now
If Chloé had a better redemption arc it be her getting taught by the butler as a father figure or uncle
Teacher they have was even close to Chloé like a mother than her own mom was
I honestly still think it is terrible to make someone who is a bully like chloe not redeem herself. A lot of people believe that people who bully are never capable of redeeming. Like Thomas said about Chloe, she is irredeemable🫤. I personally think this show is trash for making Chloe not irredeemable, in My little pony for example, them making Cozy glow not redeem herself made more sense since Twilight literally put her in the my little pony version of hell which let's be honest wouldn't redeem a kid that got the wrong version of what friendship means. Chloe not being redeemed is just so stupid to me. They could have just made her a bad person to begin with, and too far gone. If their goal was to make her a failed redemption arc, then they did a horrible job at this. Like i said Cozy glow failed redemption arc made more sense than Chloe's redemption arc which is wild since Cozy glow is suppose to be a kid who clearly didn’t have the right people in life to help her realise what she did was wrong. Cozy glow not redeeming herself was only Twilight's fault, and the show actually did a good job showing that. There is no good enough excuse for why exactly Chloe is irredeemable. If the show did what My little pony did with Cozy glow. They could maybe make it ladybug's fault for being the main reason why Chloe would never redeem herself. It would not only make Ladybug look bad for once. It will be even a better character development if Ladybug realises that she was the reason for Chloe not redeeming herself and her blaming herself for the mistake. It will honestly make Ladybug less like a perfectionist and more flawed. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter since we can't change the present, and Chloe will forever be irredeemable unless they find a way to make her realise her mistakes.
Ah wasn’t cozy base off of baby doll I still get your point thou.
Loser
People believe that believes are not redeeming because they don’t redeem themselves. Because they never change. It is upsetting to find out your bully continues to bully people as an adult, However, this is reality.
Wtf
It was ladybug mistake that made Chloe go nuts
They even recognised that in more than one episode and in miracle queen itself
But Chloe was never supposed to be a hero from the beginning ( at least in ladybug's eyes )
Her motivation was attention and power , she also didn't had so many good people around her
It wasn't clear why didn't Chloe become good because it suppose to be unclear
You can see it from Chloe's perspective and say it's ladybug's fault she didn't like Chloe and eliminated her or see it from mari perspective and say that Chloe had bad motivation and didn't change then
Mari didn't realise it's her fault because she had an excuse in her mind and hear this ( she is not an angel) she isn't that plot device that should tell you what is right or wrong destroying your point about ladybug doesn't make mistakes
Because she does and sometimes she is morally wrong she can't realise she did
You as an audience aren't dumb to wait for the show to tell you " this is bad look how sad this guy is for doing it don't do it "
@SkEi-y3b That's what I was technically talking about with my comment. I hate how Marinette basically plays favourites when picking who will be fighting among her side and especially when it comes to Zoe. Literally, Marinette even asked for her phone number because Zoe helped her when she I think fell down or slipped. It is nonsense to me. It is the reason why I think that Marinette is way too biased, and it makes her a bad miracle box holder. The fact that she also gave Zoe the bee miraculous just by knowing her is ridiculously stupid of Marinette. So you are telling me if Lila helped Marinette like that, she would do the stupid crap master fu did and give her a miraculous? It just goes to show that Marinette is a biased and not fitting hero, and the miracle queen episode showed that when she focused more on getting Adrien away from Kagami.
I find it weird that marinette fans don't seem to notice how bad Marinette was by doing that and don't seem to notice that it was Marinette's part fault for causing Chloe to go bad. If only she had given Chloe the queen bee miraculous to fight alongside her and not selfishly give Kagami the miraculous to get her off Adrien's skin. It is the main reason why I dislike Marinette. I do not hate her. I just dislike her for being so selfish sometimes. Marinette is definitely your typical Mary Sue main character. Keep in mind that the show tries to make Marinette look like a perfectionist when her actions are clearly bad, so I get what you meant by Marinette obviously being at fault but because the show owners made her a Mary Sue it made Chloe look like the bad one while Marinette the good one and I never said that ladybug doesn't make mistakes I said that she was a perfectionist which is very different from somebody who doesn't make mistakes.
I believe this is pure "Rage bait"
@@tomiekawakami460 very sorry you feel that way
i LOVE the idea of chloe getting a failed redemption arc, i love when a character is established upon by “💕making them worse 💕”
i only wish they followed up with it in season 4 onwards :(
there was a lot of emphasis on chloe’s humanity in her arc, her thoughts and feelings, things that (in a failed redemption) serve to show the audience what *could have been*
but all of her depth was completely missing after miracle queen: she just becomes a petty bully and they *literally make her stupider* (dumb characters can still have complex emotions and be deep characters, but they completely reduce her to her surface level personality and she barely serves a purpose anymore)
i would’ve loved to see her as a proper villain, she doesn’t even have to be a mastermind like Lila, make her stand out as a villain by her existing features: her passion towards ladybug, her immaturity, her selfishness, her activeness (as opposed to our butterfly users who hide in the shadows), i could go on
chloe is one of many examples of miraculous progressively getting less and less grounded to reality with crazy world-threatening villains, an unnecessarily large superhero team and *marinette and co somehow recycling all of the plastic in the seine ???* (what the hell happened in action)
Chloe’s failed redemption would have been fine with me if they treated her with more dignity. Instead they not only ignored and downright downplayed her nuance and the parental abuse she went through but they made her a bumbling idiot who doesn’t know how to spell words. They turned her into a joke instead of an actual threat for Ladybug.
That mix in with the fact characters worst than her (like her father) got treated with much more kindness is baffling to me. And for that I can’t enjoy this arc no matter what.
A failed redemption arc can still be humanized. Chloe’s fall could have felt like a tragedy. But people hated S4 and 5 Chloe for a reason. And the reason is despite this failed redemption being “planned”, it came with nasty and nearly victim blame-y implications from the creator as well as outdated dumb blonde tropes.
I also notice that you constantly water down Chloe’s motivations to one single thing: attention. But you never ask why. And the answer isn’t that she’s just a narcissist but she’s been neglected for YEARS. Her father replaces actual love for items and doing whatever she says. I don’t even need to bring up her mom. People often demand something they don’t get enough of.
I feel awful for people who (to an extent) identified with Chloe. Because it sends a message that “you’ll never change and it’s better for people to move on without you. You are dumb, incapable and you’re better off staying with the people that abused you.”
It’s fucked up. And no amount of “genius writing” can cover that up.
@@redballoon9007 you make a point. but I think whatever you said adds to what I'm saying. like you said Chloe didn't need much to be redeemed. it's just that those moves weren't played. and given what the story and characters I call that fairplay.
my whole point of the video is that it's not a failed redemption because she was irredeemable. it's because she wasn't given the CORRECT chances. hence why I point out marinettes mistakes. she was never pointed to the right direction.
and why would they, the characters who she interacts with most are just as clueless as she is
to me that's a smart way of writing a failed character. if it isn't for you, no problem
Never lose hope for Chloe's return to the good guys.
A good point. And while we're on the subject of certain characters getting built down and built up, can we talk about how no one really discusses Adrian's situation with his father ?
He goes through a lot of abuse but that doesn't really get touched on too much. His dad is a literal villain and yet he kinda doesn't get much comeuppance at least when it comes to his son... That's kind of messed up
@@seeleunit2000 that's the point. It's pretty clear that Adrien is getting built up for a massive trauma dump with all the flags we have been given through out the seasons. Adrien is definitely being addressed we just gotta wait
There is so many wrong things in this comment
First, her bullying and her selfish behaviour have nothing to do with her parents bad treatment
Also she had that butler who kept taking care of her
She wanted her mom's attention in any way she started acting horrible and that isn't an excuse for her to be bad
You could seek attention without being a bully of selfish
Ignoring her parents isn't a big deal since they are not the direct reason for her failed redemption
She turned back evil because ladybug ignored her and hawk moth gave her the attention she wanted not because her parents ignored her
butterfly effect-pun intended- got a genuine audible snicker from me, thank you for that.
I def don't care that C's redemption arc failed. She reminded me too much of that nasty school bully (of which i had several) that no matter what they did, I knew I would always hate them.
Great vid!
I do agree that making Chloe's fail redemption is so genius and it can shows that not all can be saved by heroes so easily. It also can show how young and naive Marinette was since she is just a teen. But I just wished that they tried a proper redemption with her again using Zoe. This way Zoe wouldnt just be a bland character who is just a replacement for the bee miraculous. I feel like I would also accept the fail redemption if chloe's dad and Gabriel did not get random redemption when they both neglected their kid and one literally abuses their child.
@@Yhayaha yeah of course! I personally also wish chloes redemption was actually successful. I just also accept that failing it was hella well done too
@flakyseasalt in a way yes its well done but it seems to be unintentional since Thomas didnt like Chloe in the first place as it is obvious in the latest seasons which made her like 10 times worse for the fandom to hate. I mean its reasonable for her to be worse since she probably thought the bee miraculous was the only way for her to be "exceptional" and when thats taken away she doesnt have any other thing to show that. But it just feels upsetting that everyone in the show gave up on her and she was a loss cause. I mean the rest in the show also have flaws but they are either overlooked and rarely corrected unlike for Chloe. I do believe the fail redemption is done well but it feels unintentional in the writing since again, Thomas just cancelled her redemption cause he doesnt like her
@@Yhayaha he Didn't cancelled her redemption that was always meant to happen
Gabe wasn't realising he's that bad
He thought it was gor Adrian's good
Andre wasn't abusing Chloe, Chloe was abusing his power
@@SkEi-y3b ok but my point is that the two adult man who are clearlt worser than a minor bully brat gets to be redeemed? Also Andre technically didnt abuse Chloe but the neglect is also bad and also he abused his power as mayor
This is a take I haven’t thought about before and now I think I can appreciate it. My main issue is they write Chloe to fail but Gabriel gets a redemption at the end of season 5. He was way beyond redemption at that point even if he technically did the right thing in the end. It’s a lot easier to forgive a stuck up teenage bully than the adult who torments Paris regularly. Yet, they tried to make us hate Chloe but sympathize with him.
With that being said, I have not seen the London special or anything about season six so the thing with Gabriel might still be explored.
Gabriel wasn't really redeemed, he was simply just sorry for what he was done after Emily's last message reached but at the end of the day Gabriel still decided to join Emily in death with the wish instead of coming clean and spending his last moments with Adrien.
Comparing Chloe and Gabriel is just wrong cuz both are in completely different situations with different problems as well as ideologies
Gabriel was never redeemed.
@@frisk8632 you know what you’re right it thank you for pointing that out. I only watched it once so I feel like I need to rewatch it but I never get around to it haha. Mainly I’m upset cat noir didn’t get to be in the last battle. As cool as bug noir is I love the duo so much and hated to see him left out!
It is hard to call her failed redemption genius since the writer dedicated his time in making her feel sorry apologizing to Caline Bustier heck even at one point resisted being akumatized by hawk moth and by the season 3 finale all of that whole chloe changing for the better was thrown out the window and by the start of season 4 onward she just became worst and worst it even made me wonder why bother try showing signs of Chloe redeeming herself in the first place it just made all of those redeeming qualities she was getting in season 2 completely pointless.
I would love to see a character that starts good, turns evil, tries to be good again, and stay evil (failed redemption with more steps)
I love the background of this video; it helps me focus on the video and not open another tab.
thank you! lord it took me so long to make it
Chloe acts like a Karen 💀💀💀
Got to be honest I kind of like Chloe failed redemption, mostly because it shows something that more writers and people in general should realize. Redemption arcs should be hard. You don’t get to just to bad things Apologize and then all of a sudden you’re a good person. If Chloe wanted to change she would need to release that no one is going to forgive her in just one day and that some people won’t forgive her at all. I mean like you said it’s her own fault that no one likes her, she should have to put in actual work in order to be a better person and want to be, not just wanting to be a good person so that people will like her.
Great video
This is why this character is immune to Talk No Jutsu.
love the background it helps me foucus more and love ur character!!!!
thank you! worked hard for this aesthetic!
@@flakyseasalt Yes it ate sm its a bigger bigback then me
You are wrong in one part. This girl only had a bear,a boy and a peasent as a friend for FOURTEEN-EIGHTEEN YEARS! Her father spoils her so that he will LOOK like a good father and her mother left her as a KID,HAD AN AFFAIR WHILE IN A MARRIAGE AND HAD A KID. I think what sums up Chloe is this word "Every child deserves a parent but not every parent deserve a child". Chloe wants LOVE,she saw how EVERYONE loved Ladybug but came to learn that being a hero,being a good person is more loved than her. Everyone wants happiness and love,REAL loving person. I believe the reason why she became a villain is not because she is a spoiled brat,it is because she wants LOVE. And she had the wrong person as parents and the wrong hero. Not to mention there is more to this than the show. Thomas legit said that she can't get abused because she is rich,like BROTHER WTF?! In my OPINION Chloe isn't a narcisisst. She is a VICTIM. Her parents? Oh-so-great relationship. Friends? SUUURE CUZ SHE HAS PLENTYYYYYYY. A hero who isn't a teen stalker and a Mary Sue? YEAHHHHBH,CUZ LADYBUG TOTALLY FITS INTO ALLLLLLL OF THAT. Honestly at this point. Take the most powerful Miraculous from the hands of this CHILD. PLEASE. MARINETTE ISN'T EVEN THAT ENJOYABLE OR LOVEABLE MC! CAT NOIR MADE LESS MISTAKES,BETTER BACKSTORY,BETTER DESIGN,ISN'T THOMAS ASTRUC'S VIRTUAL DAUGHTER. I am sorry but Chloe is a VICTIM. And saying she did this to herself when all of her guides were either minors who should NOT be superheroes or awful people aka her mom and dad,what the fuck dude? She was of course going to do this! She had the WORST characters in the show to guide her (and yes I am including Mari in this,cry about it) Honestly I feel like if they showed she had the wrong teachers and stop victim blaming this CHILD. I would have been fine. If the reason for her disredemption was wanting ONE LOVING PERSON IN HER LIFE I would have loved that! Also can we talk about her parents? Why the FUCK does Andre get a redemption arc? He could have just rented a babysitter to give Chloe manners but he couldn't give less of a shit! Eighteen years of being an awful parent to a once innocent child is more acceptable than being a high school bully? ANDRE WAS GOING TO CUT SO MANY TREES IF IT WASN'T FOR FUCKING CHILDREN TO PROTEST,AND HE DOESN'T GET CALLED OUT BUT CHLOE HAS AWFUL PARENTS,LADYBUG IS AN ABSOLOUTE BITCH THAT TEACHES WRONG LESSONS,SHE HAS NO FRIENDS,NOT LOVED,HATED BY EVERYONE,IF IT WAS LEGAL HER PARENTS WOULD JUST LEAVE HER IN THE DUST,HOW IS SHE A NARCISISST BUT NOT A VICTIM?! I GENIUENLY DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT WHEN IT COMES TO THAT! AND I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GIVE MYSELF PROOF SHE IS A NARCISISST FOR 3 FUCKING HOURS.
Bro, he is giving his opinion.. He isn't implying that his theory is correct.
You cannot set your opinion about a character as the only opinion.
Nothing meant rudely towards you or the creator..
You're absolutely right
Girl stop being rude. That's why I hate this fandom. Raging will not solve anything. Or blaming any character.
Let me say that: Why won't people use fandom for better purpose? Example, creating fantastic fanfiction or comic.
For example I enjoy fanon ones than actual show. But cynistic people like u are ruining the fandom.
If you gonna disrespect like that and spread hate, please leave from here.
@cemrecerenylmaz7958 I enjoy fanon ones than the actual show? Do you mean MORE than the actual show? As I said,this is my OPINION and I am trying to understand the opinion of the one who made the video,I personally did not agree with a lot of his points and the more I try to see their point I still see problems and I am asking if I am missing something. I watched this video twice and yet I still don't understand this opinion! So not understanding someone's opinions is now rude? What a joke
@@winxclubcomejointheclub6066 I think something is wrong with your comment, looking at the capitals and the word framing I definitely don't think you are rude 💀
I loved this video
@@RachelMoore-e6f thank you!
I can get the fail redemption part, I think that could be interesting. But Chloe overstayed her welcome, and every appearance that supposed to show how Chloe is being worst also make it a funny bit, like haha look at this spoiled brat making a fool of herself, which kinda takes away of her going deeper towards the dark side. I like the concept but she should've get her comeuppance much sooner cause every time she's mentioned, it's always a jab at her to further show she's bad which again kinda make it feel like an on going bit. Honestly, I wish they didn't have it so that her dad also have a mini-redemption when he "finally" stand up to Chloe too, like dude, that was what you were supposed to do in the first place. Honestly I think there's definitely a lot more reason why this fail redemption arc could've been more obvious but that's just too much stuff to say
Thank you for this great video
At last, someone gets it :)
(But, unlike Lila, she probably still is redeemable after season 5 (if she wants to))
(((Has Thomas never "lied" to you? ;) ))
hat whole "she stalks because she was bullied" thing is not an excuse at all. The creator never had that in mind before, he just added it in last minute (after 5 season of portraying her stalking and obsessive behaviour as cute and normal) to basically justify it because so many people were complaining.x
While my views have changed thanks to this video, I still believe that deep down Chloe has some good in her. There were true selfless moments from her and I can’t look past that, despite her villainy.
Hell, Gabriel was redeemed and he didn’t have one ounce of light in him before that episode! We saw multiple times he was ready to beat his son and his son’s girlfriend to near death just to get the miraculous, and he didn’t feel any guilt, so to me he was irredeemable despite sacrificing himself (to reverse damage he caused).
If Thomas thinks he’s redeemable, I know Chloe is too… it’s just a shame it’ll never happen
@@pizzahutofficial2756 oh I never said Chloe never had good in her. she clearly did. Im saying she wasn't given the right guidance for that good to come out. with the decisions given to the character only enforcing her bad influences.
Gabriel is only been provided with "redemption" on the account of being a broken villain. and even then. he didn't even properly redeem himself. his wish was to get someone he loved back. he got it. he just changed who bore that consequence (Emily with Natalie and some poor mother with himself). Marinette wanted nothing more to work out a solution that actually redeemed him and also save him from his cataclysm. but Gabriel didn't accept that chance. which to me means he never intended his decision to be redeeming to begin with.
@ the main issue is that marinette was too young to be given all of this responsibility.
Fu chose his heroes hurriedly and neither of them have enough life experience to be the heroes they’re supposed to be.
Don’t get me wrong, they still get the job done, but marinette as ladybug cannot do what an adult with proper life experiences could. Including giving Chloe the right advice and helping her get better as a human being.
@@pizzahutofficial2756 yep. marinette tried to help but she is no Naruto. she did the right things just not to the correct person.
as I said in the vid. Chloe would have gotten better lee way if Marinette said "fuck yo mama fr" and "nah if you genuinely feel bad for the stuff you did. stop running. away, fix it. and keep tryna fix it. maybe then you can actually be the hero you truly can be"
that's it really. at that point it was upto Chloe to follow through on her own path
Gabe changed his motivation
Chloe didn't
Gabe redeemed because he has changed
Chloe didn't
It's okay for very bad people to change and it's okay too for lesser bad people to stay bad
Its not bad writing if it can happen in reality
Chloe only didnt get a redemption is because when the episode (the one were Chloe calls herself useless) got released Thomas got pissed because its based off his bully from school and is petty and can't stand to have her redeemed so he rewrote her redemption in further episodes.
Sweetie that's false rumour
And btw season 3 was finished written just few days after the first episode of season 2 was released so no he didn't rewrote it
@@AJTR7485 sure it is honey.
@@AJTR7485 that doesnt prove anything, by rewrote I meant her redemption was changed by writing in episodes carrying on, dont be stupid.
@@Nightstar465 it's true stupid
Yall see a character on a redenption path having LOWS and regressions and immediately go 'yeah unredeemable' THATS HOW IT IS IN REAL LIFE shes like the character most rooted in reality and thats why she has been beloved by fans.
Chloe poured her all into doing hero work and it makes sense why she had a hard time figuring it out and letting it go, have the authors presented it from the perspective of 'you had your shot and lost it' it could've made sense but they chose to capitalize on chloe as a hero too long and then rubbed it innwith her sentimonster sister 😅
you do realise its only regressions right? like this is understandable if its like "oh she screws up here and there but overall she does more good then bad" this is a character that has stayed the same.
also weird for you in a different comment to mention this bad writing but then give a proper explanation to chloe not having been redeemed
Now all the Chloé stans will accuse Marinette of everything.
Some of them were already blaming her, like it was her main responsibility to take care of Chloé and guide her to being good.
Yeah, because to them, saving the world is less important than caring to your bully every needs.
@@xibe2007 Actually most of the Chloe stans in the comments come to understand where I'm coming from.
and I'm even seeing comments of people understanding marinette couldn't be blamed cause she really was just working with her experiences.
@flakyseasalt in your comments yes. I came from reddit and people there are not ready to acknowledge what you said here.
@@xibe2007 aw really? interesting
If only marinette didn't kept gaslighting the girl and holding a Miraculous to her face and on top of that lied abt her identity being a problem when it clearly wasn't, isn't and never truly was but in few episodes of the whole run of the show
LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK!
@@red-rika4070 xD
No offense, but I honestly going to have to disagree with you about calling Chloe's lack of character development as "genuine storytelling" because while I somewhat do agree with the moral that not everyone can change in order to like the mean characters as a character since it's okay to like or favorite a character who is a mean, selfish, snobby, & egotistical person that didn't really redeem themselves & are so full of themselves especially for bully characters since we all have different opinions on these type of characters whether they're likeable or not & regardless of the hate they get by every fandom, sure the mean popular jerk trope isn't anything special & isn't for everyone at all, but that doesn't make the trope itself bad or poorly written, it's just something that happens to everyone in real life & in animation and live action especially how these bully characters despite them being awful people, can have their fans whether they like them for being funny, entertaining, attractive, relatable, or combination of both, bullies like Azula, The Dazzlings (aka Adagio Dazzle, Aria Blaze, & Sonata Dusk), Heather (Total Drama), Regina George (despite actually redeeming herself at the end of Mean Girls), Lucy Van Pelt, Eric Cartman, Diesel (Thomas & Friends), Junko Enoshima, & Chelsea Van Der Zee, where they're all very mean, selfish, egotistical, boastful, snobby, petty, & are overall not very nice people, but they're also amazing, iconic, & well written characters that can show a good side of themselves, but never to the point where they become the good guys as they're still antagonists that continue to do terrible things, yet they have fans that really enjoy their character because they are charming, entertaining, complex, & fun villains in a genuine way that doesn't make them boring & pointless especially how most of them actually do get some character depth when it comes to exploring some backstory as to why they're the way they are, of course it doesn't excuse the terrible actions they did, but at least I can understand why they're like that, and they're development was never neglected by the writing and kept they're development in their character to make it clear that this stuff has actually happened to their character, which makes these bully characters I mentioned less one dimensional & more three dimensional & more human and how the shows & movies see the genuine potential to redeem these bully characters which is something I feel like Chloe Bourgeois is completely lacking when it comes to her villainous acts as she comes off as a boring villain with no effort put into her character writing and her motivations being so lackluster & lazy and how it didn't develop Chloe's character at all throughout 5 seasons of Miraculous Ladybug especially how the show seems like it wants to give Chloe some character growth when it comes to humanizing her like her family issues, not having many friends, & lacking any empathy and while it doesn't excuse her bad actions, at least it gives me a reason to sympathize her, but the problem with this writing choice is that none of Chloe's tragedy is treated as tragic & sympathetic, but instead is treated as not a big deal or had nothing to do with her downfall where Thomas Astruc & the writers treats Chloe's life as good where they think she had a better childhood with no bad influence by her parents, had everything she wanted, and was just straight up entitled girl throughout her life, when in actuality, it's not always true, Chloe did had a terrible childhood where she was a young child that was neglected & abused by parents who never taught her how to love herself and show empathy towards others around her especially how her mother leaving her, how her parents greed, abusive, & corruption of power & will caused & influence her to become who she is in the show as she grows up as a teenager, someone who is so horrible & toxic that can make her so miserable to the point where she would do that to the other characters around her, and yet, the show never painted this as "tragic", it's always painted as something that never happened to her, which is just so stupid & dumb because a lot of this child abuse has happened to her that made her the way she is, and yet the show just doesn't see that, and to be honest, I absolutely despise how the show handles serious topics like child abuse so disrespectful where they don't take it seriously at all, & I still feel like Chloe's lack of character growth or lack of development is a contribute to one of me & everyone's biggest criticism with Miraculous Ladybug, and that's the lack of character development of every character in the series because not a single character has gotten any depth at all throughout 5 seasons as the majority of them just remained the exact same people with no character arc or development, and the episodes being just the basic "Monster of the Week" format that only worked for the first season since it was just the beginning of the story of the series, but in the later seasons, it looked like it wants to be story driven & mixing up with the episodic format, and the thing is that style can work, and would give these characters actual depth & backstory/flashbacks where it would change everything about the series (similar how Gravity Falls, My Little Pony, Steven Universe, Star vs the forces of Evil, Amphibia, & The Owl House did where they all started off very episodic fun adventures in the first season, but as the show went on, they start leaning into the story driven format while having some episodic adventures, but even then, they're was still continuity in these episodes where things are actually starting to change a lot where the characters are starting to develop, envolve, & change in the story as well as having flashbacks of how these characters turned out to be & many others that are related to the lore of these shows), and the show tries to do this, but it completely falls flat because nothing feels like everything has changed in the story where we as the audience thought the characters (not just the characters who are mean, but also the ones who are nice as well) have grow, change, & envolve, but instead, everyone just remained the exact same people from the first season with the only change being they have given Miraculous powers, the students becoming Miraculous heroes, new superheroes, Master Fu no longer around, Felix's introduction, & Gabriel given new transformations, but that's it, and even then, they absolutely do nothing interesting with these new changes to the show where they're now used as plot devices rather than being used as a meaningful point to the story where it would actually develop the characters, & every episode format is really just a repeat of the first season, but becoming even more boring & dull to sit through, and that to me is what always bother me about the show is how there is no development to all of the characters especially to the new characters like Zoe Lee for example where they're all just really simple stereotypes where some are just goody goody super sweet characters with no selfish or mean side, and some are just baddy baddy super mean characters with zero good or redeeming side, and even when the show tries to be interesting when it comes to the time travel stuff, it still doesn't work because it makes the storyline so confusing & all over the place and because of the show's lack of serialization or continuity, it makes the whole show so boring & formulaic to watch, and how it also makes the stakes or heartwarming moments in the series extremely lackluster & kind of forced where I don't feel or relate to any of the characters, I just simply feel nothing for them, that's how bland, generic, & one-dimensional majority of them are and there are times where the characters in the show are kind of mean spirited jerks when it comes to the bullying parts, & the characters at times being so hateful to each other whether they're racist, abusive, toxic, idiotic, cruel, unlikeable, or both, and that's one of the reasons why Miraculous Ladybug has gotten so much hate nowadays because there is no actual change to the story & characters, it's all the same formula over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, over, & over again, & it's so frustrating & painful to watch.
But if you actually like this writing direction for Chloe & the show itself then that's fine, I'll respect your opinion on it, I personally couldn't get into it especially how I never saw the appeal or popularity of the series whenever it doesn't try to do anything interesting with the story & characters, yet, it still going on for 10 seasons despite not doing anything compelling with the writing, thus, making the entire show (like I said before) pretty boring to watch, and that's coming from someone like me who used to be a fan of Miraculous Ladybug before I fell out of the series around season 5 (& probably will never come back to this franchise again). Anyway, nice video on Chloe Bourgeois though 😅😊.
this made me want to read scarlet lady, I miss marigold
I LOVE that fan comic AU 💖💖💖
@kayo4344 who doesn't, like I'm not even joking when saying that it's better than the original
will admit i was fine either of what they did with chloe may they redeem her or leave her as villains i was fine
fantastic vid
will admit i was disappointed(not upset like other) of what happen in miracle queen but after reading trivia on her wiki page help change my mind on it making me realize that chloe never change was still spoiled brat from day 1 of series
@@timothylyons1529 yeye. it's really cool that we still thought it was gonna happen inspite of everything showing that it wasn't. 😂
@@flakyseasalt I really think she was becoming a better person for real in season 2.
@@ethancox9737nah. even in season 2 were moments where she didn't show much progress. like I mentioned in frightengale
@@flakyseasalt Maybe, but it could have been just a slow burn.
YES!!! YWS!!!! YOU GET IT DUDE!!!! THANK GOD SOMEONE MADE THIS VIDEO HOLY SHIT
Actually, it's Marinette who caused the most akumatizations in the show.
Not really
Chloe is the most responsible for them
@@frisk8632 Not really. Marinette caused at least 30 of them, while Chloe perhaps 18 or more then 20.
@@emiliaw262 yes but the story does revolve around marinette so it makes sense and im pretty sure most of those supposed akumatizations are not on purpose unlike chloe who PURPOSEFULLY brings down other people
What's this?
A person making a video on Miraculous who ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDS THE SUBTLE WRITING?!
Am I dreaming? Have I entered an alternate universe? Have pigs learned to fly?!
Fr though, this video is a nice breath of fresh air from the constant rants disguised at criticism about this show that only prove the person's lack of understanding writing deeper than surface level.
I think I'm gonna stick around, see where this channel goes.
This fanbase reminds me of rwby fans with subtly ignored
Agreed
@@MarcMagma heavily appreciated! I just like nerding out about things
I know, it doesn't feel real. I've found my people! Definitely sticking around :D
@@dangerbuffrockyglad to see it 🥂
19:08 THIS YES WORDDDDD
I feel yall love to call this a 'fail redemption' to cope with the fact it was a terrible writing twist and a waste of time, and now that is 6 season in is better to call it that...
Chloe moves the plot and was probably the most efficient hero yeah she wasnt in it for heroism but she was IT when she was locked down to the purpose of being a hero
And thats what chloe needed at the end of the day to be a good person to see that when she does good she will receibe honest graces and not shallow ones.
The reality is Marinette didnt help chloe AT ALL if anything she kept gaslighting her when she kept giving her the power like gdamn WHYYYYY. The reality is Chloe needed pollen's serene attitude and ladybug's guidance after her first fail, and the show was steadily building that very well (y'know the path to better is filled with highs and lows), after that we already know chloe can easily reject akuma she isnt a that much of a liability.
Truth is writters decided to butcher a great storyline and their MC just to create a plot to hate a blond girl instead of realising 'hey, we have something good here lets keep it going'
It doesnt matter now but it remains the most wasted dozen episodes ever
24:19 ima say this again WORRRRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDD
Honestly yeah, I hate this arch so much and wish she actually did get redeemed but at least it's actually good writing! But, I do despise what they did with her character in Season 4 and Season 5, she just awful there.
@@Errorrrr22 yeahhhhhh.
I can't bare with Chloe most of the time. I do wish she won her redemption
We shoudl try to get this video to more peoples attention guys!!!! Like and comment or tell ur fav miraculous TH-camrs or fans to try to cover this. Go to smaller miraculous creators and tell then too!! Its a unique way of thinking that doesn't double down with the wave of people who disliked the arc and VERY VERY LOGICAL
you're support is mad appreciated
@@flakyseasalt No problem! I mad appricate u man espically for replying!! Im gonna try to contact utterly chloe and see if shell cover this and plus she hasnt been able to make much content cuz there isnt anythin else to cover until season 6 comes out so that might be convicing!!
She also seems like the person whod cover this lol
you think this is what they wanted...but when you look at the directors twitter (i cant spell his name)
so even if this seems planned from the beginning, if you get the context from his tweets, it just seems like the writers wanted a redemption...but scrapped it due to the directors insistance of making chloe unredeemable...but somehow gabriel isnt (makes sense) even if it is a kids show, this doesnt excuse the characters (marinette's) stupidity or creepy behavior
if they did plan if from the beginning, they would've droped more hints and teasers about it...not randomly and drastically make chloe bad from seemingly outta nowhere, the only clues you can connect is the directors petty tweets and then zoey comming outta nowhere...no offense being a worse queen bee and desprately just trying to be a cheap replacement for the queen bee holder
i still pray she gets the bee back and zoey gets a new power but this aint it, im sorry and the whole chloe villian arc already ended and should've concluded at miracle queen.
at best this its still just bad writing, at worst (possibly) its the director having a fissy fit over the fandom
dont get me started at ladybugs identity rules not applying to everyone 💀💀💀
(I:E not giving the miraculous to chloe anymore cuz her identity is revealed...but breaking the rule several times, especially in the newer seasons)
@@Philscooperstupid
Dramatic much
If feel like Chloe doesn't want attention she wants LOVE AND FRIENDS. She only had a teddy bear and Adrien,I feel like this is the fault of her parents and not to mention Marinette did mistakes that lead to this but she does not get punished to teach Chloe to get a better person and they don't punish her but Chloe,who is the victim here. I feel like it is just victim blaming.
Your trauma is an explanation for your actions
But never an excuse, at the end day Chloe should still be held accountable for the decisions she made in the present day
Trying to dismiss everything as her parent's or Marinette's fault just actively removes Chloe's own agency as a character.
I am saying that the reason why this had a chance of happening in the first place is her tutors,Chloe should still be punished but I feel like Andre and Audrey should be punished too. Marinette.... She is still a teen but she SHOULD get the punishment for that level of stalking
@@frisk8632 This only seems to apply to Chloe though. Meanwhile Marinette hasn't faced consequences for her actions - instead having an entire episode created about her having "trauma" as a response to her character being called out.
@@winxclubcomejointheclub6066 Marinette's obsession is there for the comedy. At the end of the day, this show is still also a rom-com as well as a superhero show. It's overexaggerated and unrealistic, and she never gets anywhere with that kind of behaviour.
@@dangerbuffrocky The fact that STALKING and following your crush from France from EUROPE to Shanghai in ASIA isn't funny in my opinion,she Literally knows everything about his personal life and that is creepy! Not funny at all!
Well Thomas said on interview it would be Ned Flanderizing to redeem or be good.
All though I think Chloe looked good as a good guy and wish she was still good, you have a point. I don’t’t hate you for this.
of course. let it be clear that I like everyone else, do wish it was a real redemption arc, and for that reason I can't like this arc.
but I can't deny that this was a really well written arc regardless
To be honest Chloe got what she deserved in the end of this intense "Revolution." as she had turn on everyone who believe that Chloe would change like Adrien and Miss Bustier while Sabrina is no longer her friend anyway now that she knows the type of person Chloe really is and she still won't acknowledge all her wrong doing or even take responsibility for her action ( Season 3 - Season4- Season 5) since Chloe have no sense of right and wrongs because she's a selfish brat who only cares about herself.
To be honest (again) it's partly André's fault for not being a proper father to Chloe back Season 1 -Season 4 because he always let Chloe get away with everything and afraid of his controlling wife instead of acting like a real man and stand up to them in the first place. But I'm glad to see that André had finally take responsibilty for Chloe's action and decided in the last episode to divorce Audrey for good while granted custody for Zoé before resign as Mayor of Paris which explain why Chloe and her mother are in the private plane.
If Chloe was more like her half sister Zoey then her life would have been different like in Season 2 but now she became a hateful person in both Season 4 and Season 5 so I'm sorry to have to tell Chloe this but she had no one to blame but herself. If you're still feeling sorry for Chloe in this episode then blame Astruc for changing Chloe's character in the first place.
I guess we really don't talk about failed redemptions. I mean certain villains don't just automatically turn good with ease. For example, Ludo from Star vs the forces of evil relapsed back to being bad so many times. Even Vegate became a bad guy again after being with the Z Fighters for many years. I honestly have no problem with Chloe failing at redemption, I kind of like it. But the problem I have with it is that she falls to far back. I mean Sole Crusher and Queen Banana were honestly too far for me. But I get the jest of what they were trying to do. Season 5 Derision was also pretty inconsistent as well, having Chloe be even that much worser to Marinette and not explain why she pulled back the next year. I feel like Chloe could be that bad, but with Lila's influence. The fail redemption could have worked better, if they have used Lila much sooner.
Personally, I could see the redemption arc fakeout as good writing, but only under the condition that she gets a real one later
SPREAD THE WORD
I saw a tweet by thomas saying something like "we tried to give her a redemption but it was agreed by all writers that it felt too off character of her"
i still can't wrap my head around this bs. i mean it's possible, but it was only the second season, and it had been only like what, 2 years of miraculous at that point?
and how the heck it feels off character of her to become better and grow up but not everyone else? like andre??? like if it felt off character of chloe to become a better person, it DEFINITELY should feel off character of andre as well, if not a lot more! he's a grown ass man!!
thomas also said "anyone in her place wouldn't want to change" yeah if that's the case, anyone in Andre's place wouldn't too ig?? what's wrong with wanting to be better even when if it's coming from a place of privilege? Thomas is focusing so much in arguing "realism" that he literally forgets it's a fictional character we're talking about. and most of all you can use these exact types of characters to show that anyone, ANYONE, can grow and be a better person if they wish to be. to say a 14 year old is irredeemable is just too messed up.
@@AarnaAmbardar-n5d Andre??? the ice cream man????
@@flakyseasalt YEP HES CREEP
@@flakyseasaltI think they meant Chloe’s dad
But didn't the show say that Andre wasn't happy in his position as mayor? I still think his redemption is bs, but it doesn't exactly meet the same criteria as Chloe in that she was happy where she was without a redemption.😊
Can you please make a video about Andre, because I can’t tell if what he did at the end of season 5, leaving Chloe with her mother, was a good choice or a bad one.
@Miguel-nl4uc I mean. that's a yes or no isn't it?
Andre could try being the greater person and push Chloe towards change and be strict for once.
but at the same time. given his mindset, attempting to do that would have been more damaging to himself. it's not exactly a good person decision. but a decision he made so that he could be happy again for once
Look at my list of characters that had development or Talk No Jutsu:
Anakin Skywalker Kevin E. Leven Lena/Cure Amour Eileen/Cure Beat Sabrina/Cure Passion Twila/Cure Scarlet Starlight Glimmer Kiana/Cure Cosmo Diamond Tiara Discord Machi Kuragi Kotomi Ichinose Eri Aizawa Prince Zuko Samurai Jack And Ashi Riku Saix Xion Amanda/Cure Echo Katsuki Bakugo Red (Angry Birds) Lord Seventh (Naruto) Sasuke Uchiha Princess Sara Mikaru Harriet/Cure Flora
Orochimaru Penny (Zatch Bell!) The Cyniclons (Tokyo Mew Mew) Black Lady/Chibiusa Princess Nehelenia The Specture Sisters Fiore Nash/Shark Valon Bakura Vegeta, Shadow The Hedgehog ,Terra Ventus & Aqua,Terra Branford Lea/Axel Corina Bucksworth Kimberly Mysner Marik Ishtar Ken (Digimon) Dabby & Dina (Mecard) Rue (Princess Tutu) Jin Kazama Akito Sohma Yami Yugi/Atem Jaden Yuki/Yubel Naminé Silver Spoon Mai Valentine Rafael Alister King Dimitri Zane Trusdale Akiza Izinski Raimoundo Pesdora Lord Rafal, Prince Demande Rebecca Hawkins α Patroklos Alexander & Pyrrha Ω Alexandra Hortensia,Ivy Mauvier,Veyle Sage Sora Perse Cloud Strife, Shadow The Hedgehog And Finally: Princess Iris Princess Auriana Talia & Logan from Deadpool & Wolverine.
The Interesting part is Chloe was never going to get a redemption arc, since Astruc left town, leaving his childhood bully unsupervised, some writer wrote her a arc behind Astruc's back, and it was too late to delete it, but not too late to ruin it, My theory is, when Astruc found out his bully would get a redemption arc and couldn't remove it, I think he played into the arc, only to rip the rug off of our feet, to make us depise her even more
the only thing about MLB could be considered genius is how Tom managed to set up a perfect fanfiction with his ex to have a fictional daughter (Marinette) to deomize his childhood bully, all disguise in a children's show about superheros
Thomas himself confirmed this wasn’t true lmao
Didn't really make anyone with since hate her... I think hate the show but not her
20:28 no. Not the rubies. One ruby was apways VERY clearly evil and another ruby manipulated Steven into thinking she changed when in reality she just wanted the spaceship back
so basicly Miraculous's story is about a girl making mutliple mistakes, and trying her best to rectify those mistakes. Because Marinette has made alot of mistakes during her superhero-carreer but that doesnt mean she is not worthy of being a superhero; everyone makes mistakes but not everyone tries to fix them. In my opinion this is was Miraculous is about (atleast for Marinette's story line) and alot of people do not realize this and trash talk Marinette for every single mistake she makes, and honestly makes the fandom just so toxic
Well, yes!
Even though I hate the fact she didn't get a redemption arc, the writing in the leadup to miracle queen wasn't actually that bad. Even though I strongly disagree with you, I think maybe I can understand
@@GoatMinori buddy I did want the redemption arc too. you can accept the writing is good but not like it cause it's isn't what you wanted. I'm like that here too
@@flakyseasalt I know, I didn't like the writing of it as a whole though