Soft Shackles some Dos and Don'ts with using them in 4x4 recoveries
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 31 พ.ค. 2024
- Soft Shackles - here I talk about some Dos and Don'ts or can and can not/best not to do scenarios! Soft Shackles have an important place in the Off Roader's tool kit. There are times when they absolutely are the best piece of recovery equipment and other times when they should not be used in a 4x4 recovery. In this video I discuss some these situations.
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I haven't off roaded in 25 years and am about to get going again as I retire and these new rope winches and soft shackles are so nice and thank you for doing videos about using them as I was an old steel cable and chain guy and always carried very very heavy chain for safety and now we have this. I am excited about learning new tricks and gear.
You can do it!
I had another vision when you mentioned soft shackles... I'll go to confession in the AM.
🤣🤣
Thirsty much?
Bro 😭😭😭😭
Metal works better unless she's married and you don't want to leave marks.
Didn’t see that coming! 😂😂😂😂
...WOW!!!! THAT'S REALLY INGENIUS!!! THANK YOU, FOR SHARING THESE HELPFUL IDEAS!!!
That was good information sir and to top it all off, your audio was FANTASTIC!
Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Recently recovered bogged 4WD's and decided to search the subject when I arrived home. Always learning something new. Safety doesn't take a holiday. Awesome video.
Peace of mind in regards to recovery safety, eg no worry of cannon ball shackles is a wonderful thing. Surely the likes of TJM and ARB are considering soft shackle friendly recovery points incorporated into bull bars. Thanks for a great video. 👍
Thank you for the tips and techniques.
Thanks for the video. Love watching your videos
nice rundown with good info- thanks!
Thanks Matt, I appreciate the work you do. Good job.
I appreciate that!
Thanks Matt I love the idea of low mass recovery gear and in 10 minutes you have bought me up to date.👍
Glad to help
Great tips Matt!! Great teaching as always. Thanks for putting this out there..
Thanks mate!
@@MadMatt4WD
You mentioned energy needed. Have you got a video showing how to estimate how much strength is needed to perform a recovery? This way one could know if their equipment is rated to do the job safely.
@@xmo552 hi. I don’t have a video specific to that and I asked a mate who would do a very good video on the subject and he only has one in the planning. There are formulas out there.
Thanks for sharing
Great Info
Thank you for sharing your experience and your tips with us. Best wishes from Pakistan
Some weight conscious hammock campers use small soft shackles on their hammocks instead of carabiners. I’ve never used them but know others that do.
Very useful for me in snowmobile recovery. Many Thanks!
That’s a different application to what I had in mind. Well done.
Light weight, and strong.
Anything metal tends to beat everything up on a snowmobile. Usually blows a hole through where ever it's being carried.
Thanks Matt! Enjoy your videos!
My pleasure!
Another useful lesson
Really outstanding video. Thanks for the clear explanation! 👍
Glad to help
Great content as always Matt, keep it up👍
Thanks kindly
Excellent video and very helpful! Cheers from the USA!
Glad it was helpful!
NIce information! In regards to the bridle and soft shackle during a kinetic recovery, its always preferential to use less rigging gear if possible. Its just less things or equipment that can fail. The strap or rope directly to the bridle is the way to go. Cheers
Great point!
@@MadMatt4WD Hey mad matt, seems like your a bit upset in some of your videos about 4.2L Patrols mate, it’s that because they smoke every other 4x4 off road and you deep down really want one?
@@MR-hu1bx oops you’ve caught me out. 😂😂😂😂
@@MadMatt4WD Thought so mad matt, I actually drive a cruiser too believe it or not and my old GU would punish it off road that’s for sure.
@@MR-hu1bx there’s nothing wrong with both platforms Offroad. Both go hard and have advantages and disadvantage.
Another awesome vid Matt. Factor 55 have some great gear. Keep up the good work. 👏👏👏
Thanks and yes they sure do!
Greetings from Venezuela!!! Thanks for all the good advices!!!
My pleasure.
Great vid, best off all, I learnt something 👍
Good. I try to have a learning in each video
Keep up the good work Matt, good luck this weekend. Non Stick Nick
Thanks mate! I appreciate that
I also manufactured my own winch bar with recovery points for rated bow shackles, but when fabricating them I made sure each hole had a very smooth inside radius for just these reasons :) great video and thankyou for your content.
I do similar.
@@MadMatt4WD I do have one question that bugs me from time to time, if you own an offroad vehicle, and no companies manufacture the parts you are after and need offroad, do you make your own stuff or is there some items you pay for someone professional custom build for you, like rock sliders and the like?
@@destnations5588 hey mate. I make the vast majority of my own stuff. All the Bundera bar work including the flares are mine. Mainly because I had specific needs. The 105 came with its bar work and its ok for a tourer. I also modify things to suit like the racecar front bar. Totally moded from an arb bar. It has my own recovery points that tie back to the chassis.
@@MadMatt4WD Nicely Done, I'm going to have a crack at designing some suspension components soon as mine tend to act more like toilet paper than sheet pressed steel at times.
Matt, another very informative video.
Thanks Tim
thank you for great video
Pleasure mate
Thanks great tips
Glad to help
I had a 1" mooring line I used for recoveries back in the 80's. Everybody always shared their opinion on how dangerous they thought they were. Seems to be the go to nowadays.
These ropes today aren’t made from the stuff they had in the 80s. Remember when plastics always cracked in the sun or cold? Car dashes were all cracked. We learned a lot about synthetic fibers since then.
I can’t speak for mooring rope, but I can say I’ve seen a lot of rope break, and until there were recovery ropes, I saw very few successful recoveries with rope.
@@ED-es2qv my dad introduced me to naval seine rope very young, the good stuff was there it was just obscure and expensive. Now rope in general is more reliable
Thanks!
Greatly appreciate the support
Very informative buddy 👍👍👍👍
Thanks mate!
If you don't have recovery points, you can use a larger soft shackle around a chassis member. 2 will work in the bridal configuration with the tree protector.
So long as the chassis is accessible this is correct. Unfortunately it’s often difficult to get to a suitable part of the chassis on a modern vehicle.
@@MadMatt4WD Yup, this works on my HiLux Vigo D4D. It's important to spend time figuring this stuff out and rehersing it with the kit and your vehicle. Including getting a jack under the axle with a flat tyre. The flat causes the axle to dip and your bottle jack won't fit under it. A Hi-Lift with a Jack-mate to jack from the wheel directly, combined with an axle stand, sorts that one. Also, jacking the wheel directly means you don't have to jack through the suspension travel, which is easier and safer. Better yet, you don't need Hi-Lift jacking points. I don't want a bull bar or a massive steel rear bumper, to keep weight down - these combined confer well over 100kg weight penalty. For my usage profile in Southern Africa, not driving at night I'll take that. So I don't get the recovery and Hi-Lift jacking points that come with these and have to make another plan.
I will probably be making my own soft shackles.
Some do that.
Good stuff Matt, keep up the good work. Oh by the way nice presentation on the State v State show on tele
Much appreciated!
Grazie.
Lol correct me if I'm wrong but i reckon this is the first time you have got through a hole video without stalling the Bundy 😂
Na love ya work thanks for the tips, it's always good to hear how other blokes do the same job differently cause like ya said every situation calls for a slightly different set up.
Haha that made me laugh so hard. You state a genuine fact about the Bundy 🤔😊. And yes every recovery can be tackled differently and get good results. I really want to encourage people to understand the underlying principles to be able to then make decisions that suit their situation.
newest subscriber!! great meeting you at the cliff hanger event!
Thanks for the sub and yes it was a pleasure meeting with you. I look forward to working together.
I have and love my Factor 55 soft shackles. However, when they are new, they tend to do what I call 'Gator Jaw' which means they cinch tight and are very difficult to undo. Could you do a video on ways to deal with this?
As far as I understand (at least Factor 55) light duty soft shackles are quite enough for a normal vehicle. The heavy duty soft shackles are needed mainly for big trucks.
Just amazes me that soft shackles are now the thing and yet the manufacturers of recovery points STILL manufacture with sharp edges!
I asked one of the BIG off-road names and they said ‘she’ll be right mate’ 😏
So off with both and take to a metal fabricator to round the edges and re powder coat.
Wow. You they need to be used correctly. Unfortunately your rated points will no longer be rated but I agree with your process.
@@MadMatt4WD - agree but speaking to the fabricators the way they do softens and rounds the edge and does not make the inner dimensions smaller .. but understand your comment. Also will always try to use both with bridle to spread the load if in that situation..
sharp edges promote the removal of the steel hardware...round the edges for soft...ok fine....but now install steel bolt in it's place...it can now bend/bow/ said bolt. The bolt/hardware is forever deformed. Keep it straight/sharp...IMO
I would favor the manufacturing instructions for spectra/dyneema for the ring pulley as the key advantage is low friction and high strength - the soft shackle is rated at more than needed if you are shopping right and using feelings rather than science sounds religious. Have used this stuff for 30 years.
Yes - stick to the manufacturers instructions. The alloy pulley/UHMWPE soft shackle combination only works because of the very low coefficient of friction between the two (and the tensile strength of the rope). UHMWPE has similar friction properties to Telfon. However, the weakness of UHMWPE, like polyethylene in general, is its very low operating temperature, max around 80C and melting point at some 120C. Like thermoplastics it will loose strength in-between. If you use a sleeve made of polyester (PETE) or Nylon, they have coefficients of friction or 2-4 times that of the rope. Under winching force (which could easily be 3-5t) they will generate heat and could weaken or melt the rope.
In the USA we put tow hitch rigs front and back.
We have recovery points front and rear as a general rule.
Would like to see more front recovery points and bullbars with soft shackle friendly mounting points so you don't have to use any steel shackles at all.
Yes that would be good.
The only place I would use a soft shackle is to join straps
Just want to pick up on one bit of advice you gave. The soft shackle has the outer sheath fitted to reduce wear from friction, yet if using your advised position (attaching right next to the knot) then there is no sheath, ultimately reducing the life of your shackle.
Softener was on the loop in tow strap but your right if rough or sharp rigging used your off the protector.
I'm thinking in regards to the rotating of the RRP.
Thanks for the great video. Question: how should I think about choosing the right working load limit (WLL) for soft shackles used in a vehicle to vehicle recovery?
It’s actually very difficult and is one of the great issues we have with 4wd recovery gear. That being clear advise as to what gear we should be using. Even the way the gear is rated is ambiguous.
I would be interested to hear your opinions on the "freedom winch lines" that are being made by bleepinjeep, which basically have a soft shackle built into the end of the winch line, instead of having a spliced eye and hook/shackle mount on the end like a traditional winch line.
I know Matt's Off Road Recovery uses them and loves them, but would like to hear your opinions on them, it was through MORR that I started watching your channel, after you did the discussions with him into the kinetic recovery ropes vs the kinetic recovery straps.
Thankss for another great video, I always find your videos are educational and full of good information, and I enjoy watching them.
Hey thanks for the kind words and questions. I think the idea is fine enough and works. Probably my one concern is will people replace the soft shackle end once it gets a bit old or used shall we say? Aside from that if it works for your situation go for it.
I have seen tests done on where to place the knot and yes it does matter. You are spot on to set it in the 90’ setup. The covered shackle is only dyneema in the shackle the sheath cover is not and you can not see the ware/damage underneath it when using it with a snatch ring/soft shackle pulley.
Cool
Hey Matt, great video and awesome information. Something I'm trying to find out with wanting to swap over to soft shackles in my kit is - when do I need to worry about minimum bend radius? For instance, can I use the thimble on the end of my winch line to attach a soft shackle? Thanks!
It all depends on the shackle. Ask the company your buying from for the spec. I recommend Factor55
I agree about the knot placement, thanks for the video
My pleasure
I no longer have any metal at all on my winch. I have removed the hook from my winch line and spliced a loop into it and then use soft shackles. It’s so much safer.
That’s a fantastic solution
@@MadMatt4WD thanks :)
Hey Matt! Where you using the factor 55 tow strap, or their tree saver on that last recovery to join your two recovery points? Was just curious since they seem pretty similar just from a quick glance at the website
Tree saver.
The way that you show at the knot is the safest way, but I think that it will wear there much faster.
I've not seen them wear there as yet.
WHAT USING NON RATED recovery points, agree with using the heaver rated shackle on the snatch ring(block)
I know right imagine not having rated recovery points fitted to a non rated chassis.
@@MadMatt4WD LOL Matt. Jeff
With the lighter soft shackle could you double them up ie use 2 as the rope retention pully's shackle to the bridle?
I think so
Seems like with a die grinder you could create that nice radius, since you were already fabricating that recovery point.
Yes I probably could do that but the way I use my gear I usually single line winch and rarely use these points so fitting a shackle every so often hasn't been an issue. I don't use the soft shackle in that situation.
i would think that with the bridal i would thread the bridle thru the rope eye eliminating one break point
If one pours a little water on soft shackle holding pulley it lets it spin easier with less friction.
Ive not tested that but I’ve not seen friction as a problem
@@MadMatt4WD I've not tried it either but did see it done, also thought that WD-40 would help as well. Keep the rubber side down!
The frictional loss from the soft shackles are actually resonable. Lock your hubs 4wd did a test with a load cell that might be worth checking out.
Check out the one by Robert Pepper I think it's a better video and it doesn't see the problems Lock your hubs did.
Yeah Simon got some key information wrong in that video from what I saw.
Matt, I like the way you described setting the soft shackle with the knot positioned near the tree protector but I’d like to see some actual testing to see whether it makes any difference. Perhaps chat with Robert Pepper and do some scientific tests to see if it makes any difference. Then you can say authoritatively that we should do X.
Richard
Hi Richard. This video was done some time back and was based on antidotal evidence. I think now days the general consensus is it doesn’t matter.
I have to disagree...I suggestion for any homemade mounts, use a file and make them suitable for synthetic rope, and IF you're using a thimble shackle and bridle, use a rope bridle through the middle and synthetic winch line in the channel....The point in any rigging is to limit the number of dynamic connections...I would never, never (never say never ;-) )use a bridle with a soft shackle or D ring to attach to the 'pull' line, always run the bridle through the 'eye' of the pull line...
I thought I covered that verbally in the video but yes I agree with you.
There's a theory in rock climbing when connecting soft to soft that they should be of similar diameters to minimize "sawing" during loading. Is that something you don't have to worry about when using soft shackles such at in a setup like you demonstrated?
It certainly is a consideration but generally our pulls don’t involve any redirection like you would see. Having said that our loads can be considerably higher and as such if they do slide on each other they get burn real fast. The other consideration for us is what happens in a failure? Generally very little of concern assuming no metal is in the rig. Where as for you guys I imagine you don’t fly real well if the rope breaks.
What's the min radius? Since some have no more the my ARB ones for my 200 that are not rated for soft shackles.
The example of the radius is what I'm talking about some have huge and some like that have no more then non soft shakel ones...
Generally work on a 1.5-2 times the diameter of the rope for the bend radius.
Could you remove the sleeve on the heavier load rated soft shackle and get the best of both load and less friction?
You could but that could have an effect on its rating. Personally I’ve not seen it be a real issue.
@@MadMatt4WD thank you, good to know.
But wouldn't the force applied to the soft shackle be better as linear as possible, think of a tow rope on a ski boat the elastic force is applied along the rope not parallel to it? Although I'm a rock climber and a dynamic rope is often set up over an anchor point so it's a 180degree bend.
I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at. Sorry.
@@MadMatt4WD You show using the soft shackle that you think it's better to have the knot at the strap loop end which is shown at 2:50 but that means the rope is at 90 degrees to the strap which stresses the rope in a sideways direction it's not designed to be stressed in. When you have the soft shackle with the knot at the recovery point end 2:45 you can see that both sides of the rope through the knot are more in a straight line along the rope where it is designed to be stressed. Think of a ski tow rope on a boat, the skier is stressing the rope along the length of the rope where it is designed to stretch, it's not perpendicular to the rope where there is no stretch.
BTW Here's a really good vid I came across on considerations of soft vs steel shackle, makes a good point just to use steel with a very good damper system in case of failure.
th-cam.com/video/Fx3UD6_3Oss/w-d-xo.html
Soft shackle plus bow shackle, you might as well use bow shackles.
Just put better roundover on your recovery points.
At 8:45, you start explaining that the manufacturer recommends using the light duty soft shackle on the rope pulley and that you disagree. There's more to it than just load capacity. The added frictional resistance you mention on the sheathed heavy duty shackle also causes undue wear on the shackle. If you use it this way several times, you could potentially reduce the load capacity of the shackle to less than the specified load capacity. That's when things get really dangerous.
I hear that but it’s better to have to condemn a device than intentionally use a device that is underrated.
@@MadMatt4WD, I agree 100% that you shouldn't use a shackle that isn't rated for the load. But I didn't think that's what the manufacturer was advising.
No but as I explain in the video a double line pull will nearly always but a high load assuming a significant recovery load.
So is it safe to put that energy on a tree saver fast? Like yanking it with a kinetic rope?
It would take the hit but I’m not sure when you would do that.
Quality work!
Thank you! Cheers!
Hi Mattt I have a 4m 75mm 12 tonne bridle strap what size soft shackles should I use please
That’s the wrong question. You should ask if I’m recovering x amount of load what size do I need. The size is dependant on what you are trying to do. I hope that makes sense.
@@MadMatt4WD thanks Matt ! That makes sense !
could use a block and tackle system too...
You could. I’ve thought of doing a video showing that one day.
Ship Matt ship! Lol.
Lol.
what is the high rate in soft shackles for like big king 4x4 6ton truck?
Mate I’d have to look it up but you want a safety margin.
Brand new to soft shackles but isn't the use of the bow shackle making the soft shackle redundant ?
As I say in the video I only do it on this vehicle because of the sharp edges and for demonstration purposes.
Matt, what's the point of using a bow shackle and a soft shackle, doesn't one make the other obsolete?
It does. This was more for demonstrating principles.
after a tow isnt it hard to reopen the hole to remove knot?
Only when there new.
Hi! Love your channel! Here is a video test performed by Factor 55 testing a soft shackle in various knot positions. It doesn't matter as the shackles fail within 2 percent of each other. Secondly, the failure point was the same, the loop broke, and it did not slip off the knot. I hope you find this helpful!
th-cam.com/video/RlA-qCu9C4o/w-d-xo.html
Great clip Matt, question though - at the start you’re showing how you’re using a soft shackle between the metal D shackle and your recovery strap … why wouldn’t you simply leave the soft shackle out of the equation and just hook that big sturdy metal D shackle straight onto your recovery strap - cut out the soft shackle ‘middle man’ so to speak ?
Cheers mate 👍🇦🇺
You certainly can I think it was just a case of demonstrating the soft shackle. Without going back and watching the video I don’t recall everything I said but I thought I explained it.
@@MadMatt4WD all good mate - was just curious. Keep up the good work 👍🇦🇺
👍👍
I think I have to disagree with you on that last bit when using the double line winch. I believe (opinion) I would go with the lighter duty soft shackle as recommended by the manufacturer. As you pointed out, the heavy duty shackle has a coating on it that introduces added friction. While this wouldn't likely affect the winch or overall pull it would introduce heat to the shackle. This heat will speed the degradation of the shackle. Maybe not by much one time but if you get into the habit the shackle will have a higher degree of failure....at the worst possible time. Please kick this around in your head and maybe think of a way to experiment and show this yank that he's wrong. Would be a good video!!
Hey Brian you do make an excellent point and when we use synthetic products heat is certainly a consideration. I have given this some thought and my thinking is this. One, the rope speed is very slow with a standard low mount winch. Two, because the heat is generated onto the outer wrap we don't damage the weight bearing fibres in the centre if the heat does rise to a level of concern. In my experience thus far I'm not seeing any heat generation of consequence in the centre of the RRP. I can touch the RRP and can't feel any heat.
@@MadMatt4WD It would be a great way to spend an afternoon just trying to find where the breaking points are
Most synthetic rope soft shackle pulleys are now offset to keep the wheel from spinning to keep from wearing through the shackle.
9:37 "I've spoken to Factor 55 about that and 🤷🏽♂" *Translated*: "They disagreed with me but I am too full of myself to believe the manufacturer. "
3.34 - shouldn't the knot be underneath, on the other side of the loop of the strap so the pull is against the knot half of the shackle not the loop half? In theory, the forces shown here are still trying to pull the loop over the top of the knot.
Since filming this I’ve come to the conclusion it doesn’t really matter.
@@MadMatt4WD Haha. Evolution in action :-)
What do you mean the winch recovery will introduce double the load? How does it double the load on the soft shackle? The load in each winch line is half so if you rig is 5000 lb the soft shackle sees all 5000 lb and your buddies winch sees 2500 per leg. Am I just misunderstanding what you meant?
Probably a wording issue. The recovery load is what it is. Reading your comment you understand the principle correctly.
Do you have links for the shackles you used in your video ?
Head to my gear store on my website. MadMatt 4wd
What rating are the shackles do you recommend for D shackles
For now shackles I always try to use 4.75t which have a 5 times safety so massively strong for our application.
I have found that there is significant friction associated with using my Maxtrax winch ring with their soft shackle that has a sock. So much friction when loaded up that the ring stalls and ceases to rotate. I approached Maxtrax and their advice is to ensure the ring makes direct contact with the rope, not the sock. Also add some water to the rig to reduce friction even further. Manufacturers instructions…
Interesting. I use the factor 55 ones and don’t find there to be excessive friction. To my thinking it also doesn’t matter which but rotates although you would expect the larger diameter to stay with the rope so it rotates in a traditional manner.
7P Tactical say that the knot should be supported by the recovery ring, as shown here th-cam.com/video/wn1AZPNPITA/w-d-xo.html, so it appears that the manufacturers of this equipment cannot make up their minds as to where the knot should be located.
If you need a rat tail file just ask! With a grinder a good pipefitter could make that hole smooth as a babies , oh you know
Thats true.
I’m wondering about using a soft shackle with a bow shackle, as you’ve shown, when the soft shackle is rated for a higher minimum breaking strength than the bow shackle. Isn’t that problematic if the bow shackle fails? Are you not concerned with this since you’re likely working at a much lower load? This seems to be something that people on TH-cam don’t really mention. (This was what I hoped you might adress in this video.)
Good question. The issue you’re coming up against is how the items are rated and what standard they meet. Most rated bow shackles have a WLL then a safety factor of five. But a soft shackle most likely has a MBS which says it’ll break it this load. As I said in this video the bow shackle was only used to demonstrate how to connect because my recovery points are too sharp for a soft shackle.
Do these go through that tiny hole available for car recovery?
If your referring to the vehicle tie down point they won’t and that point is not for vehicle recovery. They will go through most recovery points that are designed for a soft shackle by having a radius on the hole.
@@MadMatt4WD I was referring to the small little recovery holes or bracket that some smaller vehicles have. I go to the beach and help out stuck cars a lot. Some need a small shackle to recover them.
At 3:00 in. Why not just attach the recovery strap to tye D ring shackle? No need for the soft shackle.
As I say in the video my points are too sharp for a soft shackle so I was just trying to demonstrate the setup
Why not just connect the strap directly to the D-Ring and skip the soft shackle?
Yes you can do that.
Ohshit shackle :)
Why not simply connect the recovery rope directly to the steel shackle? Am I missing something here?
As I say in the video. My recovery points are to sharp for the rope.
what are those lights ULTRA
Yes ultra vision lighting. They’re excellent.
Why would you add another failure point to your kinetic recovery, the only time I would use a soft shackle is if I had to join straps.
Not sure which bit of the video your referring too. Where I connect to the front of the car was more for demo purposes which i thought i explained.
@@MadMatt4WD At the 6:31 mark you said you would use the soft shackle to connect your strap to the bridle either for kinetic or the pulley. Either way in this situation I would not use a soft shackle.
@@lewy1 Ah yes. I have to use the soft shackle to connect to the bridal and I would rather not use a bow shackle. You can slid the bridal through the eye of a strap if you wish. When we do our recoveries correctly we don't have gear failing.
@@MadMatt4WD first nobody plans on gear failure. 1 in the kinetic recovery yes it’s a little more work to not use the soft shackle, but why add another failure point. 2 when using the pulley you are potentially doubling the load on the soft shackle, I would rather use a bow shackle and steel pulley, now the weakest link is clearly the winch line. I would rather the winch line break than the soft shackle.
Good points. This is where people need to have a good understanding of how to think about a recovery. Every recovery is different.
I’m a little confused, I thought soft shackles were to replace metal shackles off the recovery points?
They can be if the recovery points can run them. I thought I explained that in the video.
@@MadMatt4WD yep, that ones on me Matt, was a little distracted by 3 cans. Thanks for the vid mate. Owe you a beer. Great video.👍
All good. 🤟
No hats in your store? When are they coming back?
We should look into that! 👍