Great article about winch rings. Your meticulous and scientific analysis helps us understand how to 4WD better and safer. I have a protective sheaf over my soft shackles to help reduce friction wear.
As an arborist, I want to say very well done on this video. Bend ratio is very under appreciated. In the interest of practicality I want to point out that it is really hard to beat the old snatch block design. Because of how well informed this video is, let me offer some counter arguments before everyone goes out and ditches their old blocks for this new expensive tech. There’s been a lot of great optimizations in pulleys that not too many people are aware of. A brand new, well lubed pulley generally sees 10% loss in friction. That might not seem like much but it adds up exponentially every time you add another device that makes direct contact to the system. Especially when doing 180 degree turns or Z drags. Combining snatch rings in the same system would be very inefficient and would result in a lot less mechanical advantage and a much shorter buffer when shock loads occur. Snatch rings are not recommended for cable because of their aluminum design. Whereas pulleys will accept both as long as you don’t use rope in it after a sharp cable has been in it. Pulleys can be attached mid-line Pulleys have zero chance of the line escaping and strategically catch knots before can they go through Pulleys are much cheaper ($27 on Amazon accepts up to 3/4 inch, 22k lbs) and you could buy more than 5 for the same price of any 1 of the cheapest rings Pulleys can be attached to many more anchors (carabiners, snaps, hooks, clevices, slings, any open solid objects) but rings are very oddly shaped and pretty much only accept soft shackles or other rope with a knot tied in it due to how it rotates on the line. This could be problematic if you lose your only soft shackle or it becomes damaged or you tie a bad knot. Pulleys can come in double and triple sheaves which offer great options from a single point and keeps the lines in your system very straight and not off camber or rubbing on each other. Pulleys are more robust and can withstand abuse. But, they make lightweight versions as well rated for life support. I personally have a CMI brand one rated for 7,000 lbs that’s no bigger than a kiwi and just as light. $50. Pulleys save friction in both the line and anchor. However Rings see quite a bit of friction in the line in addition to the anchor
That's great info, thanks! I am very keen to hear from other industries, and in fact I study aborist videos to learn things applicable to 4X4s, so super happy to hear from one! A forthcoming test will be to see if 10% adds up each time when multiple pulleys are used. One difference I've noted between 4x4 and aborist is that 4X4 really only needs to use 1 or 2 blocks - we don't need pulley blocks but there is one I describe here -> th-cam.com/video/DrwuSobJFsU/w-d-xo.html The line escaping has been a source of concern for some, but not me. If the line goes slack, then it needs checking regardless of whether a ring or pulley is used, and I never found the rope escaping to be a problem. Can you expand on the shock load point please?
@@L2SFBC Cool. I look foreword to seeing the friction test because I’m very curious how these rings compare and behave as they rotate differently. You are correct about mechanical advantage being pretty much 1-2 blocks in most situations. Sometimes mostly serving to extend the rope so the winch can operate at full capacity due to there being less wraps on it. But, you’d be surprised how quickly things require an additional change of direction which takes additional devices. Here’s a good video for friction loss on many pulley setups th-cam.com/video/x1FSdt3_Nlc/w-d-xo.html It looks like the fiddle block is like a fancy set of fours offering 5:1 (assuming it’s setup in the same direction of the pull). We have a similar device called the Aztec in rock climbing and tree trimming. These are very useful because they can be put together ahead of time and be deployed in seconds, as long as you have enough rope. According to the video, you’ll notice that with the friction loss in this configuration is basically 20% reduction in MA which is essentially turning the 5:1 into a 4:1 in most rigging systems. Pretty crazy. The line escaping is really just a slack annoyance, I just figured I’d put it in there along with the fact that knots passing through are a real thing to consider in both cases. As far as shock loading and buffering goes, this is referring to the load being let out at variable rates of speed. I’m claiming that there’s a better friction advantage in pulleys than in rings. The pulleys do a really good job of keeping the line fluid and smooth when the load bounces suddenly. Let’s say the load suddenly moved quickly with slack in the line. When the slack reaches tension the pulleys will do a better job easing the load into the anchor point than if the line was through, say, a trailer hitch loop or a clevis. Now imagine the line is through 2-3 trailer hitch loops or 2-3 clevises. Most of the weight would be stopped on the first loop or clevice instead of a nice even distribution if that makes sense. Even high efficiency pulleys react this way. Watch 5:40 to see the buffering action I’m talking about: th-cam.com/video/M2w3NZzPwOM/w-d-xo.html Watch a real life example of the forces generated when there’s more friction in the system 8:15: th-cam.com/video/m8z6adEqaOs/w-d-xo.html Obviously the rings offer a decent amount of efficiency, of course, but when you start to add more than one device into the system even a little friction can add up quick in terms of dynamic load. In my trade you would actually let the line out gradually instead of purely relying on this. It’s called letting the line run. That way there’s less shock load. But, in a tied off system you can’t always do that and winches can take a beating if they get shocked in this way. (But you should never let line out of a winch with any serious load of course) Hope that answers your question. Sorry to write you a book.
The efficiency video has been done! -> th-cam.com/video/rdlRRAbzCzA/w-d-xo.html Thanks for all the detail, I'll read it again and watch the clips, always love people explaining things like this, and as I said, very keen to learn from aborists, riggers, sailors etc...the 4X4 industry can be a bit insular sometimes.
@@L2SFBC That was a very thorough video you linked. I’m impressed and I really think your results were quite fair. Thank you for your contribution on the subject, you’ve changed my opinion somewhat on the friction aspect, which is really good information to have. Im glad I found this channel. It’s refreshing to see there is technical interest alive and active in the community.
I've been hoping you'd tackle this subject. I appreciate your in depth and thoughtful approach to rigging issues. Since I do most of my wheeling alone, it's comforting to have a conceptual knowledge of my equipment. This allows me to handle the unique situations that inevitable arise. Thx for your insight.
Thank you for these videos and if some people find them boring they shouldn’t “waste time” to watch them!! One question: what is your opinion about offset rings? Thank you.
Thank you for the educational productions! My utv came with wire rope winch pre-installed. Owners of the same machine say switching to synthetic rope loses about 6m of length. I do not want to sacrifice any length. Any potential issue using wire rope with snatch rings? I have a line dampener to put on wire rope.
I enjoy your videos , very informative , thanks . For the casual off roader doing his own occasional recovery in relatively easy situations the snatch ring is a great idea but if doing a hard long recovery of a heavy vehicle in dangerous positions I have misgiving's about potential heat buildup on dyneema rope. Friction damage is quite evident on the Soft shackle's . Soft shackle's have their place but they need to be kept in A1 condition and never used where they can be pinched , cut or exposed to too much friction .
I agree and had the same concerns, but o ercame them by going for the largest ie Saber and using soft shackles sheathed in super slick winch rope protector sleeve.
Yep completely agree, I also see an issue for more complicated technical winches for instance where you need to assist with driving the rope coming off the ring and requiring a re-set. But the winch rings are great for many winch scenarios.
Excellent presentation. You have inspired me to redesign my main sheet system on my yacht. I own a metal lathe and I will do little testing based on the design factors that you have pointed out. Cheers!
Be great to add an offset ring into the mix. The offset ring doesn’t rotate. So no issues with lettering. But now the winch rope slides around the ring…groove design becomes critical to protect the winch rope.
Really curious about the off set style. 1) What’s the friction loss difference 2) What’s the wear differences for both the winch line and soft shackle as the the different style rings load these differently. May be do a 5 or 10 2:1 pulls and use a machine to measure the winch line and shackle breaking strength. Maybe do this for a winch on a std pulley block too. I suspect the results will be similar as the rationale for using a roller fairlead with synthetic rope, though the rings have gentler bend radii than most hawse fairleads. Can’t wait to see this!!! Keep up the great work!
Another great video. Would you be happy to create PDF of the different rigging techniques? Also, I wonder if anybody has made a ring with internal bearings?
Thank you very much for this informative comparison, I am here for the first time and enjoyed how you explained all aspects about this tool. It is alwys hard to decide for buying the right product for personal use if you know that maybe you might be needing it or not. regards
I understand that oil could mess with the material of the soft shackle, but would you recommend something like washing-up liquid for the inner part of the ring to reduce friction?
From South Africa thank you, im reserching , but am keen to change to pulley, I like the yankem with the off-set centre hole as well as the fiddle pulley, could you do testing ?
Yankum Ropes is selling a snatch ring with an offset center hole which supposedly helps against soft shackle wear. Here's hoping that you do some similar testing with that one, along with efficiency testing like in your other video.
Is it possible to make a manual block and tackle out of snatch rings? Sometimes at my work in the field I need to hoist objects weighing between 70-300 lbs and it would be cool to be able to carry a couple of light snatch rings and rope instead of hauling a chainfall around.
@L2SFBC I'm sure snatch books would be better but this block and tackle I'm picturing is as light as possible because I work at a shipyard and often have to go to ports to do work on vessels. So space and weight in the tool bucket is limited.
An excellent and most informative video l have seen in regards to these items. I’m learning about this alternative recovery equipment and have learned so much, thank you. I’m convinced enough to replace all of my “old school” recovery equipment with these new, lighter and most importantly, much safer items. I will be replacing my winch wire rope with Dyneema Rope and will also buy “soft shackles as well. 😊👍👍
It would be nice to know what the friction loss for these is compared to the traditional snatch block. Although this could be minimal, if using multiple rings, it could add up.
@@L2SFBC Whilst i dont want to be promoting other channels on other pages, i feel this video would argue snatch rings have huge friction inefficiencies compared to traditional blocks. Its definitely thought provoking th-cam.com/video/v8EhHdv4QYg/w-d-xo.html
I've seen several tests of snatch blocks with bearings versus recovery rings, using dynamometers. They are all consistent in that traditional snatch blocks are far more efficient than recovery rings, with an 8 to 12% friction loss depending on the quality of the snatch block. However, the results of the recovery rings are wildly diverse showing a friction loss of anywhere between 18 and 40% depending on the quality of the Ring and the design. Super slippery scientific Teflon coatings not with standing, it appears that the saber ring would be by far the most efficient design. Bigger is better when it comes to overcoming friction loss in pulleys. The George in my opinion would be the next most efficient with the factor 55 being the least efficient by far. Again like I said, assuming that they're not overcoming this flaw by using the Teflon coating.
The text insert at 1:10 includes MBS=Maximum Breaking Strain. Doesn't Maximum Breaking Strain imply, of all the units tested, all but one failed at less than that? Do you mean Minimum Breaking Strain? Would love to see standards like you presented in 'Recovery Gear Ratings'! Thanks for your great content.
Any thoughts about a shock absorber in the rig? A three ton SWL nylon strap between the shackle & anchor point or at the bitter end. Dyneema does not like a shock load. ⚓️
Great review. Something Ive been wondering about is the coating, as in anodised, hard anodised etc and how long it lasts if you get dirt and grit on the rope or shackle? Once you go through the surface coating it would be stuffed and wear very quickly I guess?
Have you done testing on the friction losses? I would imagine that when doing a double line pull it still won’t give you a 2x mechanical advantage because of friction losses. I would imagine something closer to 1.7x and maybe a traditional snatch block closer to 1.9x but that’s a guess!
Just saw your block/ring comparison video, and this video partially addresses my question about the shape of the root profile (groove design). In addition to reducing rope wear, a question remains as to which profile maximizes the efficiency of the ring when compared against a block.
Yes! Thats the question always coming up in my mind. All fine and good with clean dry synthetic rope. Covered in gritty mud, as it sometimes happens, and probably a whole different game, i would think. I don't have experience, my winches all had steel cables.
Can you use these for a double pull by threading the winch rope (I carry a 90 m rope) back through the inner ring, if you really need mechanical advantage and a limited number of pulleys?
Wow, excellent review of several different snatch rings. You should design them for these companies. The biggest question that was left hanging in my mind is the overall efficiency. It seems like, even though factor 55 put the most thought into their pulley, their's would be the least efficient of all the pulleys tested because of the smaller sheave diameter and the widest overall girth for the soft shackle to rub against. Unless they use some sort of ultra smooth Teflon coating. The wider the pulley, the greater The leverage to overcome the friction at its center rotating point. Other tests I've seen on the factor 55 showed that their's has too much friction against the soft shackle causing the pulley to not rotate and then you're dragging your dirty winch line across the surface of the ring, possibly damaging the snatch ring. Of all the rings you tested, I would imagine the saber to be the most efficient and best overall ring. If the factor 55 had a larger sheave diameter, it would probably be the best but also by far the most expensive. Thank you for the very informative review.
This was great but you really should consider price in these reviews. That Factor 55 is almost 3 times the price of one of the smaller models but in my opinion, it’s not 3 times better!
@@L2SFBC the Factor 55 is $175.00 on eBay currently but you can also buy a cheap one for $25.00! That’s a pretty massive difference and I’d say it’s quite relevant!
The one thing I find confusing is the WLL rating. Does a WLL of 8000kgs mean that you can use 8K input force, giving you a total of 16K force on a double line pull or does it mean that you can only have a total of 8Ks of force on it, meaning that you can only have 4K of input force on a double line pull? All friction losses are ignored.
8000 total. Any force needs an opposite force otherwise the object moves. So if you pull on it with 8000kg then the anchor is also exerting an opposite 8000kg force.
@@L2SFBC Am I correct in assuming that if I had a winch capable of pulling 4000kg I would need a snatch ring with a WLL of 8000kg or more? The winch pulling 4000kg around the snatch ring and back to itself would produce an 8000kg pull on the snatch rings soft shackle. So as a general rule you need a snatch ring WLL twice that of the winch capacity.
Yes, hence 8000kg about right for 4X4s of 3-4t. And, that assumes the winch operates at its maximum (almost never) the recovery load is that great (almost never) and even if all that's true, then the figure is WLL so the unit won't break at 8000. So I think 8000kg is fine. If you are in a sub 4t 4X4 and you break one of those...I'd suggest you have bigger problems on hand :-)
Sorry, I don't know, but I get the impression it's soon. It's being produced for a commercial or government organisation that does a lot of heavy-duty winching.
Do a test of the actual load pulling say a truck uphill with a regular snatch block then do same test with the snatch ring to see how much more load it takes to use the ring and how much load is saved by using a snatch block due to the increase in friction. I bet the load is around 50% more with the ring due to friction and the design
Can anyone comment on soft shackle rope diameter to the inner hole? I see many rings that seem to top out at about 1/2" soft shackle, but I would like to find one that can accept 3/4" soft shackle size.
@L2SFBC so I was watching a recovery video where a Lexus had rolled. As they were recovering it, they lost control and had to correct it. The camera crew never showed how they had it attached to the tree but it worked off of a snatch block setup. I didn't think you could either but it worked. Also, all I keep in my rig is a kinetic rope.
@L2SFBC I know the difference between a snatch block and a snatch recovery. Look up "Matt's offroad recovery" search the video "my crew almost died". Skip to the 10 min mark and you'll see what I'm trying to ask about. The camera never showed how they attached a kinetic rope via a tree to another vehicle.
When the tow truck and crane operators start using synthetic line instead of wire rope, THEN I *might* consider switching... I have a hydraulic winch and when it was on my XJ, I spent all day winching tree trunks after a small tornado decided to visit us during a hurricane... I had a Live Oak tree in my yard that was quite old... One man could not even reach around the bottom limb on that tree and two men could not reach around the truck of the tree... It split down the center and fell across the street... No way would an electric winch have been able to handle that task due to the minimal duty cycle that they all have...
Considering how overpriced all of them are, I would expect them to AT LEAST have roller bearings between an inner ring and an outer ring so that ideally the outer ring could rotate with the inner ring remaining fixed so that abrasion of the soft shackle and synthetic cable could be minimized.
I would not be surprised if the heat enervated by the friction will melt any of the units. That activity where two units slide with resect to each other is used in fr4iction welding of steel. I believe these systems will only work for a very short duration in any one pull, th-cam.com/video/-aEuAK8bsQg/w-d-xo.html
Bottom line for me, it generates way more friction than a pulley, I want everything I can get out of my 12K winch great idea though and if it ran on a bearing I would be sold on the idea
@@L2SFBC I will keep an eye on you here for that, I have 3 WARN EPIC snatch pulleys they work flawlessly I also have a brand new in box Factor 55 ring in my hand. I have not used it yet, do you rhink these rings are as good as snatch blocks ?
No, they're not as good - harder on the equipment, and less efficient. But they're good enough for recreational winchers, and the cost/weight/size saving is significant. So I do recommend their use, but not for high-volume winching like if you were a pro recovery business.
@@L2SFBC Thank you for your input and speedy response, I believe if the FACTOR 55 ran on a precision bearing they would really be onto something, however, the cost would be substantially more., what are your thought and the friction differences it would make if it ran on a precision bearing ??
I don't think it would be worth it. If a good ring is 8% and a block 4% then the efficiency saving isn't great. The bearing would cost and weigh more. I think it would sell but be a small market. Best of both worlds.
Nope, nope and nope. If they don't have a bearing in the centre, the rope will be under considerable strain that would heat and snap by friction. The safest one is always the one that has a bearing and a load limit to 6-8 tonnes. I have a bearing one.
Great article about winch rings. Your meticulous and scientific analysis helps us understand how to 4WD better and safer. I have a protective sheaf over my soft shackles to help reduce friction wear.
As an arborist, I want to say very well done on this video. Bend ratio is very under appreciated. In the interest of practicality I want to point out that it is really hard to beat the old snatch block design. Because of how well informed this video is, let me offer some counter arguments before everyone goes out and ditches their old blocks for this new expensive tech. There’s been a lot of great optimizations in pulleys that not too many people are aware of.
A brand new, well lubed pulley generally sees 10% loss in friction. That might not seem like much but it adds up exponentially every time you add another device that makes direct contact to the system. Especially when doing 180 degree turns or Z drags. Combining snatch rings in the same system would be very inefficient and would result in a lot less mechanical advantage and a much shorter buffer when shock loads occur.
Snatch rings are not recommended for cable because of their aluminum design. Whereas pulleys will accept both as long as you don’t use rope in it after a sharp cable has been in it.
Pulleys can be attached mid-line
Pulleys have zero chance of the line escaping and strategically catch knots before can they go through
Pulleys are much cheaper ($27 on Amazon accepts up to 3/4 inch, 22k lbs) and you could buy more than 5 for the same price of any 1 of the cheapest rings
Pulleys can be attached to many more anchors (carabiners, snaps, hooks, clevices, slings, any open solid objects) but rings are very oddly shaped and pretty much only accept soft shackles or other rope with a knot tied in it due to how it rotates on the line. This could be problematic if you lose your only soft shackle or it becomes damaged or you tie a bad knot.
Pulleys can come in double and triple sheaves which offer great options from a single point and keeps the lines in your system very straight and not off camber or rubbing on each other.
Pulleys are more robust and can withstand abuse. But, they make lightweight versions as well rated for life support. I personally have a CMI brand one rated for 7,000 lbs that’s no bigger than a kiwi and just as light. $50.
Pulleys save friction in both the line and anchor. However Rings see quite a bit of friction in the line in addition to the anchor
That's great info, thanks! I am very keen to hear from other industries, and in fact I study aborist videos to learn things applicable to 4X4s, so super happy to hear from one!
A forthcoming test will be to see if 10% adds up each time when multiple pulleys are used.
One difference I've noted between 4x4 and aborist is that 4X4 really only needs to use 1 or 2 blocks - we don't need pulley blocks but there is one I describe here -> th-cam.com/video/DrwuSobJFsU/w-d-xo.html
The line escaping has been a source of concern for some, but not me. If the line goes slack, then it needs checking regardless of whether a ring or pulley is used, and I never found the rope escaping to be a problem.
Can you expand on the shock load point please?
@@L2SFBC Cool. I look foreword to seeing the friction test because I’m very curious how these rings compare and behave as they rotate differently. You are correct about mechanical advantage being pretty much 1-2 blocks in most situations. Sometimes mostly serving to extend the rope so the winch can operate at full capacity due to there being less wraps on it. But, you’d be surprised how quickly things require an additional change of direction which takes additional devices.
Here’s a good video for friction loss on many pulley setups th-cam.com/video/x1FSdt3_Nlc/w-d-xo.html It looks like the fiddle block is like a fancy set of fours offering 5:1 (assuming it’s setup in the same direction of the pull). We have a similar device called the Aztec in rock climbing and tree trimming. These are very useful because they can be put together ahead of time and be deployed in seconds, as long as you have enough rope. According to the video, you’ll notice that with the friction loss in this configuration is basically 20% reduction in MA which is essentially turning the 5:1 into a 4:1 in most rigging systems. Pretty crazy.
The line escaping is really just a slack annoyance, I just figured I’d put it in there along with the fact that knots passing through are a real thing to consider in both cases.
As far as shock loading and buffering goes, this is referring to the load being let out at variable rates of speed. I’m claiming that there’s a better friction advantage in pulleys than in rings. The pulleys do a really good job of keeping the line fluid and smooth when the load bounces suddenly. Let’s say the load suddenly moved quickly with slack in the line. When the slack reaches tension the pulleys will do a better job easing the load into the anchor point than if the line was through, say, a trailer hitch loop or a clevis. Now imagine the line is through 2-3 trailer hitch loops or 2-3 clevises. Most of the weight would be stopped on the first loop or clevice instead of a nice even distribution if that makes sense. Even high efficiency pulleys react this way. Watch 5:40 to see the buffering action I’m talking about: th-cam.com/video/M2w3NZzPwOM/w-d-xo.html
Watch a real life example of the forces generated when there’s more friction in the system 8:15: th-cam.com/video/m8z6adEqaOs/w-d-xo.html
Obviously the rings offer a decent amount of efficiency, of course, but when you start to add more than one device into the system even a little friction can add up quick in terms of dynamic load. In my trade you would actually let the line out gradually instead of purely relying on this. It’s called letting the line run. That way there’s less shock load. But, in a tied off system you can’t always do that and winches can take a beating if they get shocked in this way. (But you should never let line out of a winch with any serious load of course)
Hope that answers your question. Sorry to write you a book.
The efficiency video has been done! -> th-cam.com/video/rdlRRAbzCzA/w-d-xo.html Thanks for all the detail, I'll read it again and watch the clips, always love people explaining things like this, and as I said, very keen to learn from aborists, riggers, sailors etc...the 4X4 industry can be a bit insular sometimes.
@@L2SFBC That was a very thorough video you linked. I’m impressed and I really think your results were quite fair. Thank you for your contribution on the subject, you’ve changed my opinion somewhat on the friction aspect, which is really good information to have. Im glad I found this channel. It’s refreshing to see there is technical interest alive and active in the community.
Very proud to have done that!
Exactly the info I was seeking. Great vid, Robert.
Much needed info …now if I can find a suitable one for my 1/4” syn. winch rope …👍🏼
Well I didn't even know these existed lol. I got a snatch block when buying my gear. Definitely interested in rigging options
Thanks for all the detail, Robert.
Thanks!
Wow, Super Thanks - much appreciated, that helps with the load cells!
I've been hoping you'd tackle this subject. I appreciate your in depth and thoughtful approach to rigging issues. Since I do most of my wheeling alone, it's comforting to have a conceptual knowledge of my equipment. This allows me to handle the unique situations that inevitable arise. Thx for your insight.
Fantastic information. Real experience combined with clear explanation and video / photos. Thank you so much. Rock on.
Glad it was helpful! Please share 🙏
Thank you for your excellent analysis and reporting.
My pleasure!
Have the Factor 55 and like it. Just ordered the Sabre for higher WLL and larger diameter based on this video, thank you!
Glad I could help!
Very interesting, especially the larger units being kinder to the ropes and soft shackles. Well presented and has given me a lot to think about.
Thank you for the video, I love the demonstrations
Thanks please share 😊
I wish these were more widely available. I may have to try a truck stop, maybe I'll find what I need there. Thanks for the good information!
There are lots online for sale
Thank you for the thorough explanation of the points to be considered. Really useful info.
Trank you for your work. You are a very good teacher !
Thank you very much!
Well done, very informative! You definitely kept me from buying the wrong product. Liked and Subscribed.
Thanks for the sub!
Great!! Great!! Great!!!...well worth watching..thank you
Glad you enjoyed it!
Really great information, the soft shackle info was especially great.
Great review thanks . Will.be looking at the back catalog now :)
Thanks!
I kept getting confused by the "d' (rather than 'th') accent on whether he was talking about "D" shackles or 'th'e shackle. loved it! Thanks
I dought da same ding
Yeah, it seems like those English people will never learn how to speak English 😁😁😁😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣
Great video. Thanks for the info. Glad the 2 I've already got are George and Saber
Thank you for these videos and if some people find them boring they shouldn’t “waste time” to watch them!!
One question: what is your opinion about offset rings?
Thank you.
Right here
th-cam.com/video/zZgBIXAraVg/w-d-xo.html
i never realised there was so much design considerations in a snatch ring
great presentation, thanks for all the info.
Thanks please share!
Really useful advice and some good in depth information to back it up. Many thanks for putting this together
Thanks please share 👍
Happy to have found your channel thanks to mad matt keep up the good work by far best on TH-cam for what I have seen so far nothing quite like it
Thanks what makes this different for you?
Robert, you do a great job of sharing valuable knowledge. Thank you for your efforts.
Thanks I really appreciate that note. Would also appreciate a share 👍
I just found your channel, excellent explanation, I look forward to watching more, Thank you, Jim
Thanks! Who's Jim?
@@L2SFBC That's my name.
Ahhh thought you meant me sorry
Thanks for another informative video; well reasoned & logical. Helped me decide to just go with the Factor 55.
Thanks, please share etc :-)
Thank you for the educational productions! My utv came with wire rope winch pre-installed. Owners of the same machine say switching to synthetic rope loses about 6m of length. I do not want to sacrifice any length. Any potential issue using wire rope with snatch rings? I have a line dampener to put on wire rope.
No do NOT use wire rope with snatch rings! You'll damage the ring. Don't worry about the 6m loss of length just use an extension rope.
I enjoy your videos , very informative , thanks . For the casual off roader doing his own occasional recovery in relatively easy situations the snatch ring is a great idea but if doing a hard long recovery of a heavy vehicle in dangerous positions I have misgiving's about potential heat buildup on dyneema rope. Friction damage is quite evident on the Soft shackle's . Soft shackle's have their place but they need to be kept in A1 condition and never used where they can be pinched , cut or exposed to too much friction .
I agree and had the same concerns, but o ercame them by going for the largest ie Saber and using soft shackles sheathed in super slick winch rope protector sleeve.
Yep completely agree, I also see an issue for more complicated technical winches for instance where you need to assist with driving the rope coming off the ring and requiring a re-set. But the winch rings are great for many winch scenarios.
Excellent presentation. You have inspired me to redesign my main sheet system on my yacht. I own a metal lathe and I will do little testing based on the design factors that you have pointed out. Cheers!
Glad it was helpful! And good to see a non-car person too. Would appreciate a share :-)
Be great to add an offset ring into the mix. The offset ring doesn’t rotate. So no issues with lettering. But now the winch rope slides around the ring…groove design becomes critical to protect the winch rope.
Really curious about the off set style. 1) What’s the friction loss difference 2) What’s the wear differences for both the winch line and soft shackle as the the different style rings load these differently. May be do a 5 or 10 2:1 pulls and use a machine to measure the winch line and shackle breaking strength. Maybe do this for a winch on a std pulley block too. I suspect the results will be similar as the rationale for using a roller fairlead with synthetic rope, though the rings have gentler bend radii than most hawse fairleads. Can’t wait to see this!!! Keep up the great work!
It's planned...
@@scotthallenberg3575
here’s a suggested use for offset rings…
th-cam.com/video/TQmGUezYV0U/w-d-xo.htmlsi=gmGOqzCkH2Hln8Ky
outstanding info..great job
Glad it was helpful! Please share :-)
I like the offset rings. They reduce friction because the ring doesn't move and because the ring doesn't move you can use it as a 4 line pull.
Not the case, watch this th-cam.com/video/zZgBIXAraVg/w-d-xo.html
Another great video.
Would you be happy to create PDF of the different rigging techniques?
Also, I wonder if anybody has made a ring with internal bearings?
Thanks David, that's on the list. Yes...search my channel for RR30 review!
That cracks me up listening to him not able to say that, these, the, then, therefore, their, this, there, they with a D
Thank you very much for this informative comparison, I am here for the first time and enjoyed how you explained all aspects about this tool. It is alwys hard to decide for buying the right product for personal use if you know that maybe you might be needing it or not. regards
Glad it was helpful! Please share
Excellent video
Thank you very much!
I understand that oil could mess with the material of the soft shackle, but would you recommend something like washing-up liquid for the inner part of the ring to reduce friction?
No, use nothing, no need
Just found your channel. Fantastic information and detail! Thank you!
Thanks please share 👍
How awesome a presentation- really knows his stuff! Insta-subscribe!
Thank you!
Be interested to see your thoughts on the RUNVA ring WLL 22.000LBs. Has a lot of the positive features you pointed out with a small form factor.
Look at my RR30 review. Would be the same.
From South Africa thank you, im reserching , but am keen to change to pulley, I like the yankem with the off-set centre hole as well as the fiddle pulley, could you do testing ?
testing is in progress!!!
Yankum Ropes is selling a snatch ring with an offset center hole which supposedly helps against soft shackle wear. Here's hoping that you do some similar testing with that one, along with efficiency testing like in your other video.
If I can get one!
Why am I not able to save your content onto my youtube acc library. Thanks for the well detailed overview and safety specifics etc..
I have no idea, I haven't put any restrictions on and don't know how to or if that's possible.
Is it possible to make a manual block and tackle out of snatch rings? Sometimes at my work in the field I need to hoist objects weighing between 70-300 lbs and it would be cool to be able to carry a couple of light snatch rings and rope instead of hauling a chainfall around.
Yes, you sort of could but better off using a purpose-designed block.
@L2SFBC I'm sure snatch books would be better but this block and tackle I'm picturing is as light as possible because I work at a shipyard and often have to go to ports to do work on vessels. So space and weight in the tool bucket is limited.
Great video very useful content
Thanks please share 👍
Looking at the Factor55 RRP Xtv. Smaller unit for my utv and atv.
Very interesting video, and very good explanations
Thanks please share 👍
An excellent and most informative video l have seen in regards to these items. I’m learning about this alternative recovery equipment and have learned so much, thank you. I’m convinced enough to replace all of my “old school” recovery equipment with these new, lighter and most importantly, much safer items.
I will be replacing my winch wire rope with Dyneema Rope and will also buy “soft shackles as well. 😊👍👍
Thanks please share!
@@L2SFBC.
Will do mate. 😊👍👍
your thoughts on the “yankum” brand ring?
th-cam.com/video/zZgBIXAraVg/w-d-xo.html
It would be nice to know what the friction loss for these is compared to the traditional snatch block. Although this could be minimal, if using multiple rings, it could add up.
That is exactly what I'm working on right now! Let's just say the difference is not enough to not use them :-)
@@L2SFBC
Whilst i dont want to be promoting other channels on other pages, i feel this video would argue snatch rings have huge friction inefficiencies compared to traditional blocks.
Its definitely thought provoking
th-cam.com/video/v8EhHdv4QYg/w-d-xo.html
I've seen several tests of snatch blocks with bearings versus recovery rings, using dynamometers. They are all consistent in that traditional snatch blocks are far more efficient than recovery rings, with an 8 to 12% friction loss depending on the quality of the snatch block. However, the results of the recovery rings are wildly diverse showing a friction loss of anywhere between 18 and 40% depending on the quality of the Ring and the design.
Super slippery scientific Teflon coatings not with standing, it appears that the saber ring would be by far the most efficient design. Bigger is better when it comes to overcoming friction loss in pulleys. The George in my opinion would be the next most efficient with the factor 55 being the least efficient by far. Again like I said, assuming that they're not overcoming this flaw by using the Teflon coating.
The definitive test will be published here shortly 👍
And here it is -> th-cam.com/video/rdlRRAbzCzA/w-d-xo.html forget that 60% figure!
Nice review!
Thanks please share!
Great video. Do these exist with more than one channel yet?
Not to my knowledge
The text insert at 1:10 includes MBS=Maximum Breaking Strain. Doesn't Maximum Breaking Strain imply, of all the units tested, all but one failed at less than that? Do you mean Minimum Breaking Strain? Would love to see standards like you presented in 'Recovery Gear Ratings'! Thanks for your great content.
Good presentation.
A hybrid of the 55 inside and Saber outside sounds like the cats meow, with the best d:D in both places.
Get the factor 55... got it
Any thoughts about a shock absorber in the rig? A three ton SWL nylon strap between the shackle & anchor point or at the bitter end. Dyneema does not like a shock load. ⚓️
Yes that's a good idea. Mad Matt did a video on it.
Great review. Something Ive been wondering about is the coating, as in anodised, hard anodised etc and how long it lasts if you get dirt and grit on the rope or shackle? Once you go through the surface coating it would be stuffed and wear very quickly I guess?
Will look at this in future 👍
Have you done testing on the friction losses? I would imagine that when doing a double line pull it still won’t give you a 2x mechanical advantage because of friction losses. I would imagine something closer to 1.7x and maybe a traditional snatch block closer to 1.9x but that’s a guess!
Yes I have done those tests check other video
Very informative video. Can you do a similar video about ropes?
Will add it to the list but not any time soon
Great vid, done well.
Thanks! Please share 👍
Just saw your block/ring comparison video, and this video partially addresses my question about the shape of the root profile (groove design). In addition to reducing rope wear, a question remains as to which profile maximizes the efficiency of the ring when compared against a block.
Agreed it does. But the gains will be marginal. I am more interested in reducing negative effects on the ropes.
Great video! Thank you for the valuable information. One silly question: can this pulleys be used with steel cables? Greeting from Peru!
Thanks! And no they can't.
would waxing or teflon coating the friction on inside of the pully make them work better
Not to any significant extent
Super interesting.
Thanks, please share :-)
@@L2SFBC I will share.
Ordered one today. May need another one.
What if you are in the mud? Are these a no go, ie. the mud will chew through the soft shackle while you winch out?
An excellent point...watch this space...
Yes! Thats the question always coming up in my mind. All fine and good with clean dry synthetic rope. Covered in gritty mud, as it sometimes happens, and probably a whole different game, i would think. I don't have experience, my winches all had steel cables.
Wonder if sand would be no go for this
Don't do a lot of winching in sand but it wouldn't help
Can you use these for a double pull by threading the winch rope (I carry a 90 m rope) back through the inner ring, if you really need mechanical advantage and a limited number of pulleys?
I guess so but you would need a 2nd pulley regardless.
@@L2SFBC Understood. Thanks Robert.
For the most part , the aluminum ring doesn’t break but will stretch. I suppose a shock load could produce a crack leading to unpredictable .
I'd like to see the 4x4 recovery that could do that!
Thanks,
Wow, excellent review of several different snatch rings. You should design them for these companies.
The biggest question that was left hanging in my mind is the overall efficiency. It seems like, even though factor 55 put the most thought into their pulley, their's would be the least efficient of all the pulleys tested because of the smaller sheave diameter and the widest overall girth for the soft shackle to rub against. Unless they use some sort of ultra smooth Teflon coating. The wider the pulley, the greater The leverage to overcome the friction at its center rotating point. Other tests I've seen on the factor 55 showed that their's has too much friction against the soft shackle causing the pulley to not rotate and then you're dragging your dirty winch line across the surface of the ring, possibly damaging the snatch ring.
Of all the rings you tested, I would imagine the saber to be the most efficient and best overall ring. If the factor 55 had a larger sheave diameter, it would probably be the best but also by far the most expensive.
Thank you for the very informative review.
Efficiecny video on the way very shortly...thank you
The larger diameter is going to spin slower producing less heat on the soft shackle.
True!
I came here hoping to be talked out of the factor 55. No such luck
Why talked out?
@@L2SFBC
To save some money on an equal quality, but less expensive product.
This was great but you really should consider price in these reviews. That Factor 55 is almost 3 times the price of one of the smaller models but in my opinion, it’s not 3 times better!
Price changes and is easy to look up, plus none of them are super expensive so I left it out. But yes if equal, why not choose lower.
@@L2SFBC the Factor 55 is $175.00 on eBay currently but you can also buy a cheap one for $25.00! That’s a pretty massive difference and I’d say it’s quite relevant!
Just checked, the F55 is $190, Saber is $100 to $168, and a George is $75. So more expensive yes. All AUD.
The one thing I find confusing is the WLL rating. Does a WLL of 8000kgs mean that you can use 8K input force, giving you a total of 16K force on a double line pull or does it mean that you can only have a total of 8Ks of force on it, meaning that you can only have 4K of input force on a double line pull? All friction losses are ignored.
8000 total. Any force needs an opposite force otherwise the object moves. So if you pull on it with 8000kg then the anchor is also exerting an opposite 8000kg force.
@@L2SFBC Am I correct in assuming that if I had a winch capable of pulling 4000kg I would need a snatch ring with a WLL of 8000kg or more? The winch pulling 4000kg around the snatch ring and back to itself would produce an 8000kg pull on the snatch rings soft shackle. So as a general rule you need a snatch ring WLL twice that of the winch capacity.
Yes, hence 8000kg about right for 4X4s of 3-4t. And, that assumes the winch operates at its maximum (almost never) the recovery load is that great (almost never) and even if all that's true, then the figure is WLL so the unit won't break at 8000. So I think 8000kg is fine. If you are in a sub 4t 4X4 and you break one of those...I'd suggest you have bigger problems on hand :-)
When is the XL Factor55 ring coming out?
Sorry, I don't know, but I get the impression it's soon. It's being produced for a commercial or government organisation that does a lot of heavy-duty winching.
Do a test of the actual load pulling say a truck uphill with a regular snatch block then do same test with the snatch ring to see how much more load it takes to use the ring and how much load is saved by using a snatch block due to the increase in friction. I bet the load is around 50% more with the ring due to friction and the design
Bet it's not... th-cam.com/video/rdlRRAbzCzA/w-d-xo.html
@@L2SFBC haha
Is that a rc car course in the background
Yep :-)
Can anyone comment on soft shackle rope diameter to the inner hole? I see many rings that seem to top out at about 1/2" soft shackle, but I would like to find one that can accept 3/4" soft shackle size.
Why's that?
I want to do some stump pulling with my compact utility tractor and think I need to beef up each component as much as practical.
Fantastic review and information!!
Thanks!
Do they make a snatch ring that will support kinetic ropes?
why would you want to do that?
@L2SFBC so I was watching a recovery video where a Lexus had rolled. As they were recovering it, they lost control and had to correct it. The camera crew never showed how they had it attached to the tree but it worked off of a snatch block setup. I didn't think you could either but it worked. Also, all I keep in my rig is a kinetic rope.
Ah, two different terms. A 'snatch recovery' is a kinetic recovery, and, confusingly, a 'snatch block' is a pulley.
@L2SFBC I know the difference between a snatch block and a snatch recovery. Look up "Matt's offroad recovery" search the video "my crew almost died". Skip to the 10 min mark and you'll see what I'm trying to ask about. The camera never showed how they attached a kinetic rope via a tree to another vehicle.
When the tow truck and crane operators start using synthetic line instead of wire rope, THEN I *might* consider switching... I have a hydraulic winch and when it was on my XJ, I spent all day winching tree trunks after a small tornado decided to visit us during a hurricane... I had a Live Oak tree in my yard that was quite old... One man could not even reach around the bottom limb on that tree and two men could not reach around the truck of the tree... It split down the center and fell across the street... No way would an electric winch have been able to handle that task due to the minimal duty cycle that they all have...
Is dirt really bad for these?
I'm going to find out...
Considering how overpriced all of them are, I would expect them to AT LEAST have roller bearings between an inner ring and an outer ring so that ideally the outer ring could rotate with the inner ring remaining fixed so that abrasion of the soft shackle and synthetic cable could be minimized.
Watch this space
@@L2SFBC -- Huh?
Video on the way
@@L2SFBC -- Haven't seen it yet...
It's on the way next few weeks
I’m surprised nobody is making these with a central bearing as a kinda gimmick to advertise prolonging your soft shackles
Ha look at my other video!
What made the perfect 4x4 snatch ring... Amazon?
I'm going to stick with bearings and rollers
WE GOTTA DO MATH!?!?!?!?!?
!
Or hook and hope...
Those are friction rings and will generate too much heat under load and movement to melt and/or damage the dyneema fibers.
no
I would not be surprised if the heat enervated by the friction will melt any of the units. That activity where two units slide with resect to each other is used in fr4iction welding of steel. I believe these systems will only work for a very short duration in any one pull, th-cam.com/video/-aEuAK8bsQg/w-d-xo.html
Heat isn't a problem.
Ok. When i saw snatch ring i was thinking of something else
I read that tittle very wrongly...
maybe buy one and winch your mind out of the gutter :-)
Bottom line for me, it generates way more friction than a pulley, I want everything I can get out of my 12K winch great idea though and if it ran on a bearing I would be sold on the idea
Watch this space...I know of a product coming that may be of interest!
@@L2SFBC I will keep an eye on you here for that, I have 3 WARN EPIC snatch pulleys they work flawlessly I also have a brand new in box Factor 55 ring in my hand. I have not used it yet, do you rhink these rings are as good as snatch blocks ?
No, they're not as good - harder on the equipment, and less efficient. But they're good enough for recreational winchers, and the cost/weight/size saving is significant. So I do recommend their use, but not for high-volume winching like if you were a pro recovery business.
@@L2SFBC Thank you for your input and speedy response, I believe if the FACTOR 55 ran on a precision bearing they would really be onto something, however, the cost would be substantially more., what are your thought and the friction differences it would make if it ran on a precision bearing ??
I don't think it would be worth it. If a good ring is 8% and a block 4% then the efficiency saving isn't great. The bearing would cost and weigh more. I think it would sell but be a small market. Best of both worlds.
The strength of those soft shackles has been compromised, They should be replaced. I wouldn't trust them.
Yes, they do degrade over time, in a way that metal shackles don't really. They should be looked on as consumables, like synth rope.
Nope, nope and nope. If they don't have a bearing in the centre, the rope will be under considerable strain that would heat and snap by friction. The safest one is always the one that has a bearing and a load limit to 6-8 tonnes. I have a bearing one.
See my other video on friction loss...not the case
It's not easy to make 4x4 recovery boring, but you've done it.
Boring is safe so is that a plus?
From South Africa and so says the ignorant and the red-necks
Go back to watching Dora the Explorer?
Apparently there are offset snatch rings now. Perhaps worth a video. Yankum is the brand
Coming very soon and see my efficiency test featuring them!
More stuck in the mud stuff. Next we will have drones come out anyway
Could you do a follow up of this with the New & Yankum XL fixed Ring th-cam.com/video/vHWN12MHgBM/w-d-xo.html
If I can get one, yes