A Genuine Critique of the Racist Spider-Man Fan-Film
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Spider-Man Lotus has gone on QUITE a journey. Once one of the most anticipated fan-films I can remember, it has since been riddled with controversy. THIS video is not really about that controversy. As you may know, I am a huge Spider-Man fan. And after such a highly anticipated release that is STEEPED in controversy, I thought it might be fun to take a proper, critical look at Spider-Man Lotus.
Edited by Joe Murphy @nazchoz798
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Music:
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Video Used:
Spider-Man The Animated Series (1994)
Spider-Man (2002)
Spider-Man 3 (2007)
The Amazing Spider-Man 2 (2014)
Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (2018)
Spider-Man: No Way Home (2021)
Spider-Man: Lotus (2023)
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Well this racist Spider-Man can be put right next to racist Captain America William Burnside.
@@juggaloclownpreacher To be fair, Englehart's story made clear Burnside wasn't always racist, he became racist because of a chemical alteration. Even Ed Brubaker admitted in his last captain america story that Englehart was too unfair towards Burnside, after all there's a certain level of tragedy to Burnside, he was a good man that loved his country and stopped a lot of KGB spies and Soviet super villains that tried to overthrown the US, but he became crazy and paranoid because of an accident im his serum. It's a tragic story if you see it that way.
There's a little mistake in the video. You said that the Peter-MJ part was a reference to a diallogue of Spiderman: Blue, but that dialogue is a reference to the end of "the night gwen stacy died" by gerry conway. I personally think the problem with that scene is that they didn't adapt that part of the story well, as the scene is supposed to be short and poignant. Over all, a great video, I agree with most of your points on the problems with the movie.
Good video. Sounds like the concept for the movie could have been an entire Netflix series i.e the relationship between the four main characters.
Hey Johnny Disenchantment Season 5 trailer is out please do a video on it and how it will end!!!
Lotus feels like a relic of that time when fans hated Tom Holland's Peter for being too happy, and would claim that Spider-Man needs to be poor, miserable and alone. Nowadays the narrative has taken a turn, people won't shut up about how Marvel editorial refuses to let Peter be happy.
Trye
People hated Tom's spider man? I know Andrew's which well the movies were awful
Tom's Spiderman would be a lot more fun if they took the whole obsession with Iron Man and all the gadgets Spidey gets away
@@powerviolentnightmare5026and they did so why u still complaining
@@powerviolentnightmare5026 They literally did
He fundamentally misunderstood what the function of a film adaptation is. He made a Uwe Boll level superficial film, while thinking he was making the deepest Spider-Man movie ever.
Yeah. There's a reason most directors have people telling them when something might not work. It's why only the rare few directors have complete creative control.
I think Uwe bowl wouldn’t make a movie like this.
His would be all action, with no regard for the characters or story.
This is more like a Spider-Man drama movie
Ah, Uwe Boll, the poor man's version of Zack Snyder. Who is already the poor man's version of Christopher Nolan.
I mean, it's the best we've gotten but keep criticizing, everyone else here is listening apparently
@@Jiub_SN it isn't at all.
So the "i was a little rude" comment from spiderman blue was referencing an actual issue that came out some months aftsr gwens death. Peter was about as vicious there as he was in the movie, he was being cruel to her at his apartment because he wanted to be left alone to his grief.
Only difference is, MJ didnt just sit there and take the verbal beating and then tell peter later what he said was good actually. She called him on his bullshit, refused to leave, and gave him the push he needed to get over himself and recognize he wasnt suffering alone.
Its a moment of serious personal growth for her (i think its the first time she dropped the devil may care attitude and showed some empathy) and it causes peter to see her in a completely new light going forward
She doesn't actually say anything in the comics, just makes the decision to stay with him as he cries.
It's not that she accepts his venom, but she recognises his grief as well as her own, and for the first time in a long time, chooses to sit with it rather than running away.
"Anyone can wear the hood... if they're the right color"
"I don't get why it's a big deal, Miles. Your people say that word all the time"
Reminds me of that meme with Miguel O Hara
@@pridefulmaster1390 "I mean Miles, I'm 0.1% black, I can say nig-"
@@pridefulmaster1390look at you two racists
@@mr.x2567which one?
Honestly, the best way i can describe this film is
*It wanted to be a Love Letter to Spider-man from Spider-man fans, but instead, we got an Eviction Note to Spider-man from Mr. Ditkovich*
It was never a love letter though, it was always a spite project because Gavin hated MCU Spider-Man and thought he could do better.
😂
Rent?
@@m0istur”You’ll get your rent when you fix this DAMN DOOR!!!” 😂
@@cashomnitrix 🤣
The way the handled Peter being rude to MJ and then gaslighting her into believing that he wasnt at fault makes sense given the creators history
It's what happens when you let a racist incel write Spider-Man: He acts like a 12-year old manchild, and not the Spider-Man we know and love.
Yeah even Peter Parker at his lowest would never be this much of an asshole this is like Peter with the symbiotie type shit
@@flighttrain1189Bro just ripped this nearly word for word, bar for bar
@@flighttrain1189 Actually this is exactly how Peter reacted in the Comics. It's not from Spider-Man Blue but from the actual serialized issues back in the day.
The scene and results are still different though. Peter wants to be left alone in his grief and when MJ tries to distract him, he lashes out to her. Instead of leaving she stays and watches Peter break down comforting him. That was the moment Peter started seeing the real MJ for the first time instead of the impression he had of her.
It might not be the best adaptation, but saying Peter would never react that way is wrong. Even without the symbiote are were times where Peter is mean, especially when shit goes wrong. It doesn't happen a lot and he always feels guilty afterwards and tries to make up for it. That's what makes him human. Sometimes even he is at his breaking point.
It is funny how fan films made by embittered fans all seem to have a degree of misogyny. Haha
The movie doesn't understand Spider-Man. Its so miserable, its not even close to bittersweetness of Spider-Man: Blue. Spider-Man isn't gritty, he's a heartfelt character. Plus, this was just a very long expensive student film.
maybe they're just aligned with the current spider-man writers
have you read the current run? peter is absolutely fucking miserable and makes bad choices left and right (as do the writers)
@@FantasmaNaranjahonestly, if you look at the writing of this current arc and compare it to other stories that had a heavy amount of editorial meddling, it really feels like the story was heavily influenced by editorial mandates, especially because we know that Marvel’s editorial has rules for Spider-Man that include not doing anything to age him up which is why his and MJ’s relationship always gets flushed down the drain after a few months. Also, the editorial team has just loved this kind of cheap drama for almost 40 years now.
That's kind of contradictory, what fans felt about MCU Spider-Man. His story got gritty and suspenseful when it needed to be in NWH, and it did it so perfectly that everything caught me off-guard. I ended up believing that it's the best MCU and best Spider-Man movie ever made after Raimi's Spider-Man 2.
@@FantasmaNaranja lmao maybe. I stopped even paying attention to the current run because it's so bad.
@BlindedBraille only spiderman is miserable. Harry and mj hold onto hope. Harry and mj were the best part of this movie. Gwen they made shy and I like that but she isn't very interesting in general. The actress did her best though
its wild of him to say he thinks/"knows" hes better than watts but dropped a soap opera featuring spider-man 😭😭
Spider-Man is inherently a soap opera but Lotus mostly fails because of how its executed
Classic Spider-man IS a soap-opera, but along with the high-drama, it requires the mundane slice of life stories.
The movie’s just…bad. Konop talks about wanting it to be viewed as a drama first, and as a drama it’s just absolutely awful. Overly long, deeply uncompelling, and insult to the characters.
Imagine if we had Miles Morales in the movie though
@@5specn bombs everywhere
I think the movie relies too much on us already knowing the characters and expecting us to fill in the blanks of character development
As old as Spider-Man is, if you don't know who the characters are and you're watching Spider-Man movies, that's you're own problem to fix, not the movies'.
@Choshako dude there's a difference there are alot of people out there that doesn't even read the comics so it's not fair to say oh its because you didn't read the comic like why and he's only talking about characters in spiderman lotus not other spiderman films dumbass
@Choshako, there's a huge difference between knowing the source material vs. relying on the source material when watching movies.
Like, I don't need to know the origins of Spiderman, but if I'm watching a Spiderman movie it should establish why these characters matter and how they impact from their stories. Cause if they skipped all that just cause we already know who they from previous incarnations then I don't think the movie did a good job with that.
@@ravindupadmanath2802exactly what I was gonna say. The origin stuff doesn’t change too much, its character interpretations that have flexibility, that we need to see fleshed out more than anything
@Choshako But that's exactly the point, there's alot of history that you need context for and you could argue that somewhere out there in the world, a new fan is made every day. Everybody has to start somewhere and some people delve into the history of Spider-Man at a different pace so nobody is ever caught up at once. So no, it's not the viewer's fault, it's the director's fault for thinking everyone is caught up. A great film can make new fans
The scene where Peter talks to MJ in the graveyard is basically an adaptation of that famous scene where Peter belittles MJ for seemingly being a shallow party girl after Gwen's death in the comics, and it even tries (and fails, sadly) to capture the moment where MJ is about to leave, but refuses to prove him wrong and that she _does_ really care.
Except it's a graveyard, not a room, so that poignant moment where you see her shut the door can't physically exist, so she just kinda has to do an awkward turnaround.
Then it's shown that it's not even because she refuses to leave him like in the comics, it's because she needs to give him a letter to introduce the plot with the kid.
GOD that's annoying-
The other issue is that Peter in the comics never cut that brutally into MJ like the movie, it was very clearly him lashing out and wanting to be alone. Whereas in the movie he outright calls her a joke and goes onto berate her.
@@jagtech490 Yeah, he basically calls her unsympathetic in the comics: the dialogue consists of accusations like "You wouldn't be sorry if your own _mother_ died," and "I know you hate sick beds, and believe me I wouldn't want to ruin your fun," but it worked because he had his head in his hands and was clearly speaking out of turn due to pain and grief.
I like that sequence in the comics because you can see how hurt MJ is, but without any dialogue as she turns to leave you see her change her mind and walk back to him to prove Peter _wrong_ about what he's saying, staying with him as a friend who refuses to be rejected.
So yes, Lotus basically butchered that whole scene, and I think the whole controversy as well as the other problems with it has soured the concept of seeing a Lee and Ditko adaptation brought to the screen. I hope it _hasn't_ because I'd _love_ to see a more angry and emotionally immature Peter struggling with his selfishness, eventually growing into the Spider-Man we love _without_ it being a pseudo-emo miseryfest almost the whole time.
An actually valid criticism! I didn't mind it as much, but they definitely could've done better
except that unlike in this she doesn't sit there and take it nor does she tell him he's right and that she needed that 'wake up call' she called him out and conviced him he needed to get over himself and stop being so selfish
I want to make a fan film but just of a young J.Jonah Jameson as an upcoming journalist as he comes across a conspiracy involving the mayor and the people of New York and why you should be wary of people who "Just want to help"
See THAT is something fresh and unique. I’d love to see that, give Jonah a reason to not trust everyone who claims they’re a hero, show us WHY he sees Spidey as such a menace.
Good luck if you choose to do that, it sounds awesome !
Start writting before someone takes your idea
What's frustrating about Lotus is that it could've worked. If they had decided to focus more on the story of Blue, showing the relationships through, at least, Act 1 with some narration from Peter, maybe show him saving the day and cutting back to him recording this part of the conversation saying something like, "I don't think I can be that man again.", and THEN show the Kid Who Collects Spiderman stuff after Gwen's death and how that inspires and motivates him to not give it up (and without the mom scene that should've just been cut out), it could've worked. Hell, they could still show him being horribly rude to MJ so long as he apologized and promised to make it up to her in the end. It literally just needed a shift in focus and a little bit of tweaking and it would've been so good.
So... What makes this movie "racist"?
@@darker2920don’t forget Peter’s actor as well
@@darker2920 Gavin acknowledged that he was racist in his earlier days and apologized. His screenshots about badmouthing Jon Watts were faked. IDK about Peter's actor.
@@sussybaka119the movie itself isn’t, the writer/director and the guy playing Spider-Man are
I'm surprised you didn't mention Peter pulling the three thugs into Shocker's blast. While I'm sure Spidey doesn't have the best track record with the endangerment of his foes, this felt blatantly out of character and was insane to me.
Is this why the video title calls the movie racist?
Am I going crazy or am I just not seeing that in this fan film???
Shockers blast doesn't kill people
@@FeministCatwomanalso, the director and lead actor said the n word like 8 years ago when they were young teens, the movie and everyone involved is 100% not racist, just Twitter peeps memed it to hell
@@Jiub_SN oh ok, thank you! Sorry, I was just so confused
@@Jiub_SN That doesn't really matter, he still endangered those people. How would he know that they DON'T kill people this time, either?
It's the way that this movie came from the Gavin thinking he can do Spider-Man better than Jon Watts only for the Blitzkreig Bop montage in Homecoming alone outdoing Lotus. 😂
Him mourning Gwen with his Mask left on definitely makes it less gripping then Amazing Spiderman 2's. Idk why they did that
I'm guessing they did it to be more comic acurrate.
They’re going for something similar to the comics
From what I'm getting from this critique is that they expect you to be a deep lore Spider-Man fan who knows all the ins and outs of these characters that are in the movie.
I dont disagree but that makes it even funnier when you realize that if you're a deep lore fan you immediately recognize how poorly they adapted crucial bits like MJ choosing not to leave Peter in that room after Gwen's death
@@gwell66v2AnimeReviews most fanfilms run into this problem they may only make it accessible for people who really know the characters but they only highlight things that they like about said medium that they like. If You're a Star wars fan and you just like this one aspect of Star wars and do all the other stuff that make Star wars popular to casual fans it isolate in a bubble and if you don't get it just right in the hardcore fans will not like it.
@badman3000 either that or the fan creator lacks the talent to put even the parts they're passionate about, together in a well written way
@@gwell66v2AnimeReviews sometimes it's not lack of talent is just getting in your head and thinking that your way is the best way. Even professional writers and directors make movies that they think will work and wind up coming out very bad.
@badman3000 that they do but absolutely it's not an all the time thing, just sometimes. In the case of lotus, I see a ton of evidence it was lack of writing talent
This kind of screams to me of a Batfleck problem.
In Batman v Superman, we're told a lot about it's version of Batman but we never really got the chance to see how he was before the events of the movie, save for the Crime Alley scene. But the movie still insists that we be fully on board and sympathetic with him and his mission.
Lotus feels like that too. A movie that wants us to feel emotionally invested in characters we don't really know
That's my problem with Batfleck too. On paper the idea of this older Batman who has lost his way is really cool, but since all of the backstory is just hinted at, you're just left with a weird portrayal without showing why he's that way.
Honestly, it would have made more sense to ignore Bruce’s dead parents and explicitly focus on him being grumpy over stuff actually related to his superhero career, like how the movie hints, but doesn’t actually delve into Bruce having a dead sidekick … maybe that could have played a role in his characterization when he ultimately has to assemble a superhero team
@@matti.8465The Batfleck Movie would have answered those mysteries. And apparently David Ayer's Suicide Squad did too.
I remember someone saying that Snyder "tried to deconstruct a batman he didn't even bother to construct in the first place" with Batfleck. And tbh that actually works pretty well.
I actually think that quote was from HiTop Films who I don't even like, but that's still a good quote all things considered.
That isn't at all what Batman v Superman was trying to do with Batman....It was literally a Batman who didn't care anymore, who had a Robin die and saw that nothing was getting better so he got tougher, who didn't actually have to kill the criminal, he let the trash in prison do the work for him. The only people that Batman really killed were the ones who were meant to kill Martha.
I feel as though this would be better as a finale film in a trilogy with the other 2 films establishing the relationships between the characters, it would make everything hit harder imo
So basically this is considered "racist spiderman" all because the director and actor had racist DMs. I thought it was because Spiderman was racist in the movie.
Same here
Yeah it’s to do with the behind the scenes moments
"Racist Spider-Man" is how this movie has been colloquially referred to for a while. And I think it's valid to call it that because he genuinely set out to make a movie without any diversity.
Also Harry makes a casual Fu Manchu reference, which is from the comics but nobody born in 2001 just casually is a fan of the old stereotype character Fu Manchu.
@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZepI really don't see how it's racist to not have diversity in a movie. Also who is Fu Manchu?
@sewwfffyhjijui He literally said his goal was to make a Spider-Man movie with only white people in it. That is racist.
Don't twist my words. Oppenheimer is my favourite movie of the year, probably the decade so far, and it is not diverse.
And Fu Manchu is a terribly racist Asian stereotype character from way back in the day.
Gwen's death in ASM2 was also brutal as hell, adding to the shock value.
Nah it was comedic to how poorly done it was.
@@adeptdamage3669I disagree
@@adeptdamage3669I agree bro, unironically I laugh whenever I see it now cause all I hear in my mind is CLONK
It was actually done well. If you think its comedic then i recommend getting professional help@@adeptdamage3669
Spiderman and racism is the one thing i never thought i'd hear those 2 words together. And I pray I never hear this ever again
The movie itself isn't racist it was just the actor playing Spiderman and the director. To say that this movie itself is racist is just wrong, theres a difference between the art and the artist and I don't think people really get that these days
@@travit666 And some people should realize that you shouldn't always separate the art from the artist, especially when enriching the artist.
@@mandalore1089There's definitely merit to your thought, but sometimes i just have to. Kanye's music and fashion is just too fucking good for me to look the other way. Genuinely the best artist of the 21st century. I dont listen to his stuff religiously anymore but damn if MBDTF isn't my favorite album ever made
What makes him racist though? Genuinely curious. @@travit666
Oh please, you should see how some people treat Miles :p
…It’s not pretty…
Well, not many people manage to actually make a fan film and post. So I’ll give them that. It’s just what they made wasn’t very good.
And being terrible people behind the scenes definitely doesn’t help.
@@crimsonoutdoorsco.9640 we deserve the lost fan film from like 40 years ago, not this racist self insert fan fic disguised as a passion project lol.
Havent watched yet but I respect giving the movie a far shot even if it sucks.
I'm still deciding if I even want see it.
Consider this before watching it. Spider-Man uses a human shield at one point
@@akiraeatsguitarpicks491😱
@@akiraeatsguitarpicks491I watched the movie and don't remember this. Was it in the shoker scene
@@leafyishereisdumbnameakath4259 I do believe so. I haven’t seen it
This was, without doubt, one of the fan-films of all time
I feel like an adjective was supposed to go before "fan-films of all time.
@@Choshakoyes
@Choshako that's the joke
@@ChoshakoI dislike you immensely
@@Choshako nope. It is one of the fan-fims of all time. It is 100% a fan-film within our time.
You simply can't write a story like this without any of the context, build up or character development. How are you meant grieve for a character you never got the chance to know? How are you then meant to relate to the characters who a grieving if you both aren't feeling the same feeling they are, as well as lacking the experience of seeing them together. There's a reason they didn't kill Gwen off until the end of the Amazing Spider-Man, and that's cause if they did it any sooner, it simply wouldn't have had the same impact, let alone doing it right at the beginning of the first film. I just can't see how they expected any of the story to feel meaningful in the way they've written it. Yes, the idea is good, and all bad writing aside, makes for a good story, but only if you have the viewer make the journey to get there. While I think it could be more effective if you have an act before hand setting all this up, I feel that ultimately for such a story to have the impact it needs to have the viewer both emotionally invested and relating to the story, you need a whole other film or two before hand to have the impact that I'm sure the writers were hoping for. I'm all for fan stories like these, but sometimes, the fans are too invested themselves and need someone else to provide an outside perspective, and I think that's what has exactly happened here.
Someone else said it, but this movie is why people don't take fans seriously when they make claims like "I could have made a better product than that!". Fan projects are fine when they are made without such pretentiousness.
i'll give it to the filmmakers, they do one thing that always bugs me in big budget movies, where they can't have shitty digital recorder footage for cellphone video montages because it looks low quality, but that's just reality.
yes, you can record 4k footage on an old ass iPhone, but what teen or young adult is thinking to upload 4k footage on their snapchat and instagram stories? they're gonna record at the quality that doesn't take up gigabytes of storage on their phone, and it just feels so much more realistic.
Okay they deserve props for that.
This film feels like a sequel to a story that doesn’t exist
No it feels like a sequel of a sequel to a trilogy that doesn't exist.
generally i assume johnny is mostly a great spiderman reviewer but i think he showed how well he understands story-writing in this video, i felt the same way mostly about this movie, it has a lot of good things in it but the character work is probably its most damning issue
Best critique of the film I’ve seen, very complete and points out the most important details. And I somehow never heard your outro before it’s awesome!!!
I appreciate how respectful you tend to be whenever you criticize films, and how intentional you seem to be about seeing what was attempting to be done and what parts they did decently or even well on.
I feel like If the Spider-Man rights were sold to the CW, this is what the outcome would be. I also hate how fan films get a pass to shitty CW quality (as far as writing goes) while if the mcu was to dare release something like this, the director of lotus would be talking shit about it for the rest of his life…
I think it's because fan films are usually made by amateurs, while the MCU is made by professionals,a movie should always be judged fairly,you cannot compare a fan film to a big budget movie, people critique these things differently,and I can guarantee that if it weren't for the racist director of lotus,no one would know this movie exists,they treat it differently from other fan films as a fuck you to the director for pretending he could do better than the MCU
@@AdamDj-ic3kr I can compare them when the director openly admits that he doesn’t respect the mcu Spider-Man movies and said he could do better, he opened the door for all this criticism… I’m only criticizing the writing because generally that’s the only area that can fairly be judged. I’ve seen fan films or even scrapped scripts with better flow… it’s either you’re a good/decent writer or you aren’t…
@@getmeouttahere1209 I guess you're right
So interestingly, I tangentially knew the film's infamous director. He was about 10 or 11 when I was a junior in highschool, and his mom was my AP English teacher. I was interested in going into film at the time and she told me about her son, Gavin, who I apparently reminded her of, because he wanted to be a director too. I remember liking her as a teacher, no hints of racism or anything, so when all the allegations/evidence started to come out about this Spiderman fan film, I was curious, but did not even dream that I would even be familiar with the director, who was of course a main source of the controversy. From what I've seen she never spoke about the controversy, she just seemed to be a supportive mom about the whole thing. Anyway, what a wild and ultimately sad turn of events
So do you think the dad might be where he got the racism from?
@arthuredington6171 Maybe, he was a child of divorce for what it's worth
@@arthuredington6171 Gavin had a typical gloomy teenage period, and he wanted to be 'edgy' so he went the racism path.
@@arthuredington6171his racism amounted to saying ‘nigga’ in a DM.
@@mottom2657That's likely it, I do recall my teenage friends picking one defining edgy trait, such as racism or misogyny. They showed it among their friends but always acted totally different around parents
I seriously hate Spider-Man lotus with a burning passion.
Good or bad, whatever behavior the creators or actors exhibit, the Spider-Man fan film I'd much rather see is that Stan Lee sanctioned Spider-Man vs Kraven the Hunter film the creator only showed in public a few times and refused to release any other way, right on past his passing. The curiosity factor for me on that one is far higher, especially since there's no way to see it. It...consumes me.
I’m all for fan films and fan art and stuff but the minute you try to make it superior to the official works is when you lose me
It’s a slap in the face to official artists and writers and directors who work hard on it
Entitlement ain’t it
You should make it because it’s fun and you love the character unconditionally not to try to make it a competition or one up someone else
Exactly! I hate when people make things just to crap on what the creators made. It's not a fan project at that point, it's a hate project to the official property
I strongly disagree, I think being able to recognize the flaws in the media you love and wanting to improve upon them is a perfectly valid and respectful way to be a fan. it shows that you genuinely care about the stories you love being the best they possibly can be. like it was stated in the video, what you prefer to see in the story may not always actually be better, but to act like fans wanting better from them at all is somehow a bad and even disrespectful thing just silly and misguided.
@@drudeger I get what your saying but also in the vid it seem like the guy that created talked a about how how would make a better movie and are better then them and for him to not only make a movie not as good but also seemingly from the vid not understanding the character is another plus a lot of the movies are well loved he seems like and outlier that when he tried his own thing wasn’t as easy as he thought but I do give him some credit for trying
@@ShnoodleMcexactly
@@drudegertrue love is unconditional as the saying goes
There are ways to want it to improve without being negative
This movie would work better as a sequel or maybe they can make a prequel that provides clearer context for this movie to strike the right emotional impact this movie needed and wanted🤔
His talking to MJ is the creator's interpretation on the hate that MJ is now getting as a character by the fandom(in my opinion). Like yes, MJ is flawed but so is Spiderman/Peter and after so many years I just believe that the writers just don't know how to writer her in a more likable light. In recent comic
(spoilers) She and Peter were teleported into a different dimension and MJ was stuck there. While three days passed for Peter, three years had past for MJ, and the time he gets to her, she has kids with the man that brought her there and doesn't want to leave the guy or the kids so she breaks Peter's heart again. What I dislike about this storyline is no one is talking about how MJ had Stockholm syndrome. Many of the fans just bash on her because of this, not seeing the reality that MJ waited 3 years for Peter to come save her in a dimension of monster. That can mess up anyone brain, but for some odd reason a lot of the fans are just starting to call her awful and such, forgetting all the awful things that had happened to her in past stories like making a deal with the devil to save Peter or Peter sperm literally giving her cancer and killing her. And also all the times she is kidnapped and/or attacked because of her relationship with Spiderman/Peter. I honestly feel that the writers just don't like her or they don't know what to do with her character and they are trying to make her into the worst version of herself to continue to make money instead of letting her grow as a character in a healthy way, the same with her relationship with Peter
It's just comics being comics. Always has to be a cliffhanger and drama.
Insomniac Spiderman has the two of them exploring their relationship in an adult way, gives MJ her own career and has her interacting with people other than Peter.
@@nathandts3401 Yes, Insomniac does a PERFECT job with their relationship. It points out the issues on both sides, but instead of having them argue and make one side look bad, they sit down and talk about it, and I like that. Even when Peter talked about Felicia and helping his ex, MJ was cool with it and trusted Peter and I liked that.
I have no idea what the comics are doing though, they are in a world of hate on their own because I wish they showed us why MJ decided to move on from Peter instead of having her think he was dead.
@@amyadams9970 It's just the nature of comics. They've got like 15 pages to sell you the next issue. Marvel are usually a little better at telling a running story than DC, but you're usually only going to get good character writing in miniseries or pre-planned arcs. It helps a lot when they know how many issues they're getting to tell the story. I guarantee the writer didn't think about the consequences of what they were writing. They just wanted to end on something unexpected in order to sell the next issue.
That's too much hoop-jumping to make sense of an interpretation that, on the surface level, is just really mean.
So some how I never knew this was a thing this whole time. Almost went to go watch it before your review and was going to come back, but kind of glad I decided to stay here because I may have just stopped watching the film. I love how you clearly understand what good story telling is. I 100% agree with you in that the movie needed to set up these versions of the characters and their relationships first. Really the first act should have been Spidey at his best. Taking down criminals, going on dates with Gwen, and hanging out with his friends. Let us get a feel of what his life is like right now. Maybe he's in college and not doing well right now like in Spider-Man 2. Then in transition to the second act, kill Gwen off thanks to a new villain and boom you've fixed most of the issues that plague what we got. The second act see's Peter wanting to quit now and being an a-hole to his friends. Maybe he still saves people, but he's clearly different than the first act. And perhaps, Spidey is vengeful and is hunting down whoever killed Gwen. But eventually bumps into the kid and causes Peter to hope again. Eventually leading to the third act in which Spidey takes down the villain, maybe having a little doubt left, but ultimately triumphs and we have a nice wrap up with peter apologizing to MJ and other friends at the end. It's a basic three act structure, but would definitely work and be better than what we got with a lot of rewrites.
None of the characters in the movie felt like their comic counterpart.
That was a great critique and your ending message was perfect.
People owe the MCU Spidey an apology
@@darker2920 So weird how people care so much about Uncle Ben, when he wasn't that pivotal in the original comics. He doesn't even say the great responsibilty line that was from the Raimi films.
@@darker2920 Does it rally matter if he uses Stark Tech when everyone uses Stark Tech? And yeah the over reliance on Stark tech was the point of Homecoming where he was reliant and Tony punished him for it. And I really don't care because if one avengers is the CEO of the world's leading tech company, why aren't they allowed to have some of it? Reminds me how it pissed me off that no one helped Captain America got no help during Winter Soldier from the other Avengers. Did people also forget that in the comics a lot of heroes went to Richard Reed for suits and gear, including Spider-Man?
LMAO nah, No we don't
@@Zee-bx4ns So you like everything about Spider-Man's development being told to you and not shown?
@@koichidignitythief7429 I just personally don't like Tom Hollands Spider-Man. He wasn't Spider-Man till he lost May.
the title of this video had me flabbergasted, absolutely bamboozled, I read this title and my two braincells rubbing together trying to process it made me do the confused arthur morgan face at my phone.
Ooh, I love that you gave this movie a fair shake! I didn’t know anything about this beyond the general controversy so it was super interesting to see footage. It’s amazing that you can identify all of the adapted source materials.
You saved me 2 hours of my life thank you
Damn💀
Peter getting mad at Harry for being selfish by being depressed only to be reminded by Harry that his dad died was hilarious.
Reminds me of the Terroriser v Miniladd drama that happened within the Vanoss crew
In all fairness the comics were a bit like that too. Probably didn't help Harry's paranoia.
I mean, Harry’s dad was the reason for Gwen’s death, so it’s a bit more complicated than that, but most of the good I saw in the movie was just me picking up on things that the writers probably didn’t even intend anyway.
As a film student I’m glad you made this video. Controversy aside all of the critiques you’ve made are the same critiques me and my classmates have received in class (albeit for much smaller projects) and I’m at the point now that all the problems with this film are honestly so glaring it’s hard to watch
I think there's a way to fuse the two stories better so that the tone isn't so depressing and tryhard. basically open with the kid viewing spider man from a street level, collecting spider man merch, and then developing this idealised version of who spider man is. then he actually meets spider man by sending in a letter to the daily bugle, (leading to either JJJ, robbie robertson, or ned leeds making a cameo) and finds out that the real spider man is unexpectedly a little mean and cynical, like peter B parker. maybe he says something like "enjoy it while it lasts" and there's an implication that he's in a really dark place. then the kid shows off his understanding of who spider man is and they start to bond, with peter doing things like paying for his food, explaining how his webshooters work, and stopping bullies at his school.
all while this is happening we are slowly dripfed the knowledge that this is happening after the death of gwen stacey, with interstitial scenes of peter trying to record an anniversary monologue on a cassette to commemorate gwen's death and apologise for not doing more. then the kid indirectly finds out what happens by snooping around and peter blows up at him. they have an emotional argument where the kid talks about how spider man isn't like this, and that he's supposed to inspire hope in other people. this can be the catalyst for peter that makes him realise that he's lost sight of who he is and he needs to remember what ben, and may, taught him. this could be the part where the kid reveals that he's also scared of death and grief; he has leukemia and has lost family members before, so he's scared of his family being overwhelmed by grief and turning out like how peter did. to make up for his outburst, and to become a symbol of hope again, peter unmasks and has a proper heart to heart with the kid, before going on a majestic swing through the city that ends at the empire state building. this is especially significant because the kid has never seen a sunrise there due to being bedridden.
the final shots of the movie are peter easing the kid into his death and comforting him in his final moments, before going home and finishing his tape apology to gwen stacy. we get a cool final swing that ends with peter landing at mj's house, promising to patch things up and move forward.
Perfect 👌
It looks like a cw show
Yea but cw shows are actually good because they are professionally made and are unique
@@madnessarcade7447 true lol
The part where Peter is mean and terrible to MJ pulls inspiration from The Amazing Spider-Man #121. It's not adapted well, but knowing where it comes from helps understand why they kind of crammed it in there.
As flawed as TASM 2 is Gwen’s death scene is a masterpiece
I never even heard about this because I have been away from most social media sites but now after I watched the critique I definitely agree with all the arguments you make.
Green Goblin's Last Stand (1992) is THE BEST!!! Spider-Man fan film ever, especially the final fight when Dan Poole (AKA the director/SM and Peter himself) just goes OFF on Green Goblin is actually gut wrenching and genuine emotion and care and love and passion went into it, it was so good Stan Lee himself gave it his stamp of approval and loved the film it was made with a budget of ONLY 500$ the whole movie including the action trailer and the behind the scenes are free here on YT I definitely recommend it if you are a die hard Spidey fan
In Amazing Spider-Man 2 you can tell on Peter's face that he truly fought through hell and back just for it to not matter at the end and his tears show the same. Lotus sounds like Peter realized that him and Gwen were late to something and he ran all the way to her house and out of breath is calmly telling her to wake up
(Sponsor talk) As someone that used to get those boxes, oh they were a highlight, do recommend for people to get the boxes! Also a fun tasting thing to do with family! That’s what we used to do, we only stopped as we got so many it got repetitive 😅
The scene where Peter berated Mary Jane is from the og death of Gwen Stacy comic. Might of been the issue after but it worked waaay better in there, cuz we saw mj be the party girl all up until that point so when Peter calls her out on it, it makes more sense. In the film, we basically just met her so it comes off as rude as hell. Plus he didn’t go nearly as hard on her in the comic as he does in this film.
Normally I'd think a fan film should be given some leniency, but considering this project started with the director saying he understood the characters better and that he was going to show how it's donde
Didnt stan lee said the point of spider mans costume was that anyone can be underneath it?
Yeah I say this in the video!
Apparently the director didn't get that message.
"Is just a word Miles, your people say it all the time" 😅
😂
Okay Johnny why is you hair so majestic
The hatred the makers of Lotus had for the Tom Holland movies really tells me that they don't care about the IP. If this was created with mindset of "we can do it better" then it failed so incredibly hard.
A truth no one wants to accept is that most fan creations are crap and the ones that aren't are the exception to that rule.
Anything professionally made is always good and bettet
thats a bit of a pessimistic view. Personally i think any fan creation made from love of the source material is beautiful in its own way regardless of quality. There is something special about labors of love like that. All that said this movie from what ive seen has a pretty bitter/negative energy fueling its creation which to me really robs it of that usual charm you get in fan work.
It's not so much that it is 'crap' than it is your expectations not being met BECAUSE you have access to high-quality film. I mean, nobody is arguing that a fan movie with a very tiny budget could compete with a movie whose budget is very much higher
That being said, I usually have the same opinion as you when watching these fan movies lol
@@jordyjohnathan5123 “regardless of quality” lol that’s literally the entire argument; most fan made movies have a shit quality. You’re arguing against it like it’s a bad thing
@@user-x7dc2pq7n not really arguing anything. just offering my two cents on the nature of fan made works
When I saw the title, I was worried for Miles.
I haven't seen this movie nor am I defending it, but Peter biting MJ's head off at the funeral is lifted straight from the comics. It's also a character development moment for MJ, who walks away, stops.. and goes back to Peter to comfort him. So IDK if that's how it is in the movie.. and yes, the lack of depth will harm this idea, but it IS lifted from the comics proper, at least in concept. I don't have the exact issue numbers (because I'm not looking it up), but it was literally in the funeral issue. Just.. she IMMEDIATELY responded. She didn't walk away then come back later. She walked for the door. Stopped. Came back in. The 'defiant friendship' she did with Harry in your clips, she did with Peter in the comics.
What the hell is this?
Number one, this should've been a short movie, not a full length one, one can do more with less.
Secondly, dear lord, its lighting and grading is near nonexistant, I educated myself for years the importance of lighting and its crucial elements, this ain't it.
Thirdly, there's no atmosphere, no sense of spider world elements, its another direct-to-tubi, melodramatic attempt that's very lacking.
I will say the other part which is "the kid who collects Spider-Man " part actually feels pure Spider-Man esque, but could've done better without a shaky camera in the regular moments, and the action sequences feel genuine, kudos to the vfx team.
This feels like a mistake for a Spider-Man fan film.
Never heard about this until I watched this… huh
the way the movie tries to get the audience to understand Peter's pain, like when you just met someone and they trauma dump you. You aren't terrible if you don't know how to react to it because it's sudden, you don't have any connection to the person whos dumping their trauma on you. It's just like how the scenes of Peter's friend group impact the audience: nothing much to react to other than pity.
Been looking forward to this lol. With everything I’ve heard I don’t feel like watching the movie itself anymore.
I think a part of growing up is realizing not anyone could be spiderman....powers dont make a hero...batman has none....its the person, who they are on the inside
This was a boring ass movie. That bored me to death.
I haven't seen it, but the way you describe it reminds me a lot of fanfiction: fanfiction writers also often skip the setup, as the reader is expected to be familiar with the source material already, and go right into the angst.
nah its just a bad writer thing in general.
I think some of the issues would be fixed if we actually show Gwen’s death. Picture this:
The first 15-20 minutes are just setting up the characters and their dynamics. Intro Spidey, set up Gwen, etc. Actually show the death of Stacy. Cut to title sequence.
Now this next part is tricky. You could do a whole story with just The Kid Who Collects Spider-Man, or we could somewhat use Spider-Man Blue. How about Peter using the tapes to cope with his grief? He records them as a coping mechanism while pushing back at his friend group. They could retaliate (like MJ does in Blue), and Peter begins to gain closure. This way, Peter feels that he does good as Spidey thru The Kid and as his own person grappling with grief.
It’s not a perfect treatment, but it’s a start.
Why is it called Lotus? Is that ever explained?
Doesn’t seem like it 😅
Probably did it to sound deep.
Omg, that is so annoying. It’s been driving me CRAZY. Lotuses are so thoroughly tied to Indian culture in my mind and while there are other cultural associations one can make with a lotus NONE OF THEM HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH SPIDER-MAN! It makes me feel a little crazy, lol
It means rebirth or renewal.
@@trepettigrew318 Ah, so they were trying to sound deep. Your mileage may very as to if they succeeded or not.
J2C, this was a great review, it was interesting to see your issues with the movie whilst mentioning what you liked.
I doubt this is a unique feeling, but the length of the film made me lose attention to the film, which actually makes me more appreciative of The Batman, which was over 2 hours but still kept my attention.
Obviously one is a fan film and the other is a professionally made film, but the Lotus could have been a bit shorter.
I was just over the moon with the Tim scenes they were so well done and really made me feel for both characters, when Spiderman asks him how old he is Tim goes "I'm 10, I'll be 11- ... my Birthday is in August" cos he DOESNT KNOW IF HE'LL GET TO BE 11 i thought that was really well written
So excited for another Johnny vid!!
This movie feels like the darker and grittier sequel to a Spider-Man film that was never made. They keep referencing events that we never got to actually see. It feels like I'm watching a CW Superhero Drama, but starting at season 3
good vid! any way youd do reviews/breakdowns of solar opposites?
I’ve done a couple SO videos! Considering talking about the new season but I’ve got a lot Scheduled
Really appreciate this video as I'm probably not gonna watch the fan film. While you cite Jeph Loeb and Roger Stern, I was disappointed that you never gave credit to Tim Sale or Ron Frenz and Terry Austin for their respective contributions to Spider-Man: Blue and Amazing Spider-Man #248. Even a simple overlay of "art credit: Tim Sale, Steve Buccellato, and Wes Abbot" for Spider-Man: Blue and something comparative for the other art would have been fine.
Ain’t nothing spectacular about this.
Exactly 😅
Or Amazing
Thank you for watching Racist Spider-Man so, I don't have to.
It’s a bad movie, but it’s not racist for making a racist joke.
My biggest problem with spiderman lotus is that the drama is really overused, don't get me wrong I love drama in spiderman movies spiderman 2 is one of my favorites because of it's drama but that movie also had cool action scenes and amazing web swinging, spiderman lotus doesn't have alot of action scenes and doesn't have alot of web swinging, the only web swinging that we have are in the beginning and the end of the movie so yeh I love drama in spiderman movies it's just that most of this movie is focused on drama it's just way too much I wish we got more action scenes and more web swinging
I find it odd and mostly ironic that Gavin wanted to make the least racially diverse Spider-Man film possible, but cast Tuyen Powell as Gwen even though she's Asian (albeit a white-passing Asian) and also used the lotus which is a Japanese symbol of new beginnings in the title of the movie.
Not too surprising. Assimilating other ethnicities and cultures into 'Whiteness' is a common tactic of racism
Never heard of this. I think the best fan films are just people having fun and giving us another taste of the worlds we love. The Uncharted or the Futurama one comes to mind. To say I'm gonna do a take on gwen stacy, just kind of misses the point though. If it's not done with fun in mind with group of friends just paling around, I dunno.
Mmmm while I love dark themes last time I checked Spider-Man is meant to inspire. He keeps going even after loosing people so to see a fan movie not even show that…balance mmm it’s odd 😅 and it definitely was made for comic fans and no one else so the audience is limited
Meaning someone like me who’s never read the comics and watch the marvel movies only it’s excluding the average movie viewers which I think is common people 🤷♀️😅
First ive heard of this. A full 2 hr fan film im definitely going to have to give it a watch
I'm gonna throw a pretty shallow take here: I HATE every actor's faces in this. I'm not being fair, but I can't believe for a sec these aren't some school theater students.
The CGI work is amazing though, everything else is trash fire
Am I the only one who thought the actor who played Harry did a good job
Nope. I genuinely think he was the best part of the film.
If you are racist you fundamentally don’t understand the character of spider-man.
Exactly the part about spiderman is that it could be anyone under that mask so any kid can imagine themselves as spider man
If you're racist you fundamentally don't understand a lot of things
Hey Johnny, we got the mystery flavour in the UK too, I thought it was Rhubarb and custard, if that helps 😅
I’ll never forget that line “Gwen! Wake up Gwen! Gwen shasheba” just magical😢
When SpiderMan is happy they want him to be dark and gritty. When he is they say “the writers hate SpiderMan”
Who is "they" exactly?
Fans/Critics. They’re not always the same.
@@NoHateLikeChristianLove Believe it or not, the Spider-Man fanbase consists of more than one person, many of whom have differing views and opinions on what the character should be like, so having a consistent consensus is obviously impossible. Also when people say they want "darker" Spider-Man stories, they're referring to things like Insomniac's version, Web of Shadows, Spider-Man 3, and Back in Black. Nobody wants straight-up depression fuel. Understand?
@@mrscruffles801 Ah. So YOU get to speak for all the fans? But I can’t talk about all the discussions I’ve had? When he’s with MJ they whine when she acts like a real person. When she’s gone, they get pissed. When he’s up they want him down. Understand?
Appreciate seeing a critical review of this film separating it from the drama which understandably has skewed views.
I hope this movie will live on as a teaching lesson when reacting to officially released content. I feel like fans of properties tend to create a warped version of the character they’re presenting. And often times get so wrapped up small aspects of the character that they blow out of proportion. Like how Konop wanted this to be in the same realm as the Rami movies & not the MCU movies in terms of being serious. Except, the Rami movies were lighter in tone than this movie & knew when to pull back the drama. I feel like a sub section of Spider-Man fans sometimes focus way too much on the emotional part of Spider-Man & warp it into dark material for no reason. Spider-Man is not Nolan’s Batman & I feel like people can get a bit carried away when they say stuff like ‘Spider-Man stories are dramas’. And this movie is a shining example of that. It wants to be dark & gritty except TASM 1 was less serious than this movie. It’s way too occupied with showing scenes of our main characters being miserable. And all of this is so that these fans can have a piece of media that actually takes Spider-Man as seriously as they say they do. Except now, it’s not theoretical. We’ve seen what a 100% serious Spider-Man movie now looks like. And barely anyone likes this direction. This isn’t even about the behind the scenes controversy. Even if it didn’t have this reputation. People just don’t like this movie because it’s not fun in the least. One part of Spider-Man that I think is very important to get right is the layered aspect. Sure Spider-Man has a tragic side to his character. But that’s always revealed after a surface level of comedy. None of the Spider-Man films open with the dramatic tone, and that’s for a very important reason. The duality of Spider-Man’s emotion & comedy. But without the comedy & by replacing emotion with misery. What do you have. An over dramatic piece of fiction that’s boring ti watch at best & uncomfortable to watch at worst. Please stop making Spider-Man serious 100% of the time. It never works.
I think a 100% Spider-Man could work if the story feels earned.
100%, following him on Twitter before all the controversy happened. He was always posting about the emphasis on Spider-Man’s depression and failure above all the happy stuff . This in turn sort of caused him to not really understand the supporting characters, rather just understanding their use to peters story. Harry, Gwen and especially MJ are extremely complex characters that need ample development just as much as Peter.
This is the first time that I have actually heard of Spider-man: Lotus...😅
Had no idea, but thanks for the video.