Yeah, I found that the Cent 1 is still fairly cheap to repair and still gives you a good round just not as nice of gun handling or armor. So I end up grinding like four matches in the Cent 1 for every match I play with the BR 7.0s.
@@Martel_Clips they already got their BR's raised to 7.0 because they were good at countering German vehicles, and we can't have that. Getting hit with that and a double-whammy repair cost increase is ridiculous.
Yeah I'm yet to work with a country that doesn't have a integrated way to boil water on almost all their vehicles, but the world loves the tea joke, so let them have it.
@@SAbre5311 I mean the brits were the first to identify the problem and implement the boiling vessel PRECISLY becasue of teatime. everyone else copied it later
@@niamniam_thpyr No its only until the Mk.5/4 do Chieftains get APFSDS, as far as I'm aware. The Mk.5 ingame isn't the Mk.5/4 unfortunately but just the Mk.5 with the new engine.
Mk.11, last of the true service gun tanks, added STILLBREW armour and TOGS thermal gunnery system. Still let down by the Leyland L60 in the back, but when it worked it was a very potent tank that could even today still pose a threat to just about anything on the battlefield with an even half awake crew in it. I may be biased though, I served on the old girls!!!
Before getting the chieftain, we need to spend a LOT of lion cuz of those astronomic repair cost on every british 7.0 tanks. why does it cost so much ?? Is it because it got stab at 7.0 ? Well ok but when u face 8.0 tanks with stab and heatfs shells u don't stand long, I went like bankrupt cuz of that. Can gaijin plz do something about that... 😭😭😭
@@gentlemenbaiter5288 I think to lower the repair cost is the right option especially the caernarvon 19k !! Because if they put it again at 6.7 I already hear german Tiger II (H) players crying in the skirt of Erika
@@zmyslowykalosz don't worry haha I play german as well but the repair cost of german tanks are not that high, compare the two heavy tanks caernarvon and tiger II if I remember correctly the repair cost of the tiger II is like around 8k but the british one is 19k
Lol u talking about it's a broken tank at the br it's at If are decent u van make huge amounts of SL. If u want pain try the Tiger 2h in a uptier that's a good game ww2 with high repair Vs 1970w mbts
my favorite chieftain is the chieftain marksman. an episode on British SPAA would be cool, especially since there's that new ADATS in the British tree now.
'By the 80s the Chieftain was outdated, and left much to be desired' is that why the Soviets still deployed their most up to date tanks on whatever parts of the east / west german border where Chieftains were stationed
What Bruce forgot to mention is that there was an Anglo-Israeli collaboration on the development of the Chieftain's latter stages. Then Britain pulled out of a deal so that they wouldn't feel the wrath of the Arab nations. One of the nations that the British sold the Chieftain to was Iran, which seriously backfired for them when the 1979 Iranian Revolution. The experience from the collaboration spurred the creation of the Israeli Merkava, the development programme of which was led by General Israel Tal, who had worked closely with the British in the Anglo-Israeli Chieftain project.
I remember back when I first grinded the British tree before the sabot buffs, I absolutely hated the chieftain. It was slow, and the gun was awful. But then gaijin buffed sabot shells, a couple of times I think, actually; and it was like flipping a switch. Combined with a BR reduction, the chieftain mk 3 and 5 absolutely rip. Dependable and deadly, like the best British tanks.
i hope we get shir 1 and shir 2 MBTs(specialzed versions of chieftain and one of chalenger prototypes for iranian army) as an event tank for british techtree in the future.
Merry early Christmas War Thunder team, especially the favourite voice of the videos, Bruce Grant! I doubt there will be more videos in the next 2 days so I'm wishing you a Merry Christmas now.
Okay lets get some things straight. The first Chieftains were not very mobile. They were more than 10 tons overweight and their Leland L60 multi-fuel engine was underpowered. The first Chieftains had to be winched onto tank transporters as they couldn’t get up the ramps. The L60 was also hopelessly unreliable and would plague British Chieftains throughout their service. The 700+ condor engines were only ever fitted to export models and the Chieftain 900 prototype. Mobility problems were partially fixed with an improved L60, which didn’t actually have any more horse power, and a new transmission. Despite their shortcomings Chieftains were THE most powerful tank in the world, Albee to shrug off T-55, T-62, T-64 and even early T-72 rounds. They were bumped down to the second most powerful when the Leopard 2 tank showed up. Chieftains were retired by the British in the 1990s but are still in service with Iran and I believe Jordan might also have a few still going.
MEGA VIDEO !! VERY WELL COMPILATION INFO! I'm starting to warm ...A LOT! to WAR THUNDER : my military service was around SARACEN APCs initial yrs ...then much later CVRT SPARTAN CMDR CRSE ..twice. during which I learnt a lot from others who had been doing /working CVRT much longer! being in W. GERMANY 1978 -1981 then rtng in late 81 ...we were deployed on EX CRUSADER 1980 AND later EX LIONHEART "84 BOTH OF WHICH were a TANKERS zenith and highlight! I'm a wogeller at heart ...and I'm in process of putting a photo set together for a UK VETERANS MODELLING GRP. SO! dusting off those TAMIYA CHIEFTAINS ETC and many others. FAVE CHIEFTAIN MK 5 Managed to get an early mk of the 1-25 scale TAMIYA CHIEFTAIN ;NEVER had seen one other than catalogue pics!?. SHE really needs some TLC! GREAT CHNL THANKS LADS!
We also learned from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard fighting Saddam's Iraqi army about the Chieftains flawed turret armour, thus the stillbrew upgrade was born.
Nevermind the Chieftain, why don't you sort out my Challenger 2F instead of making it out paper with a pea shooter you buff it to what it is operationally like in the field - actual armour with an unbroken L27A1! I feel like I'm driving around a toy tank all the time. Gaijen the king of broken vehicles.
Ah the FV4202... Great tank but unfortunately I can't play it anymore because of a ridiculous 16k SL repair cost that made me give up on the British tech tree
Just finished christmas tree so there is my question to you Gaijin. Q: Would you add modern crew models for vehicles with visible crew? Such as Type 93, Duster, M163 Vulcan etc. Happy christmas may next year would be better for you and your community ASWELL.
Urdnot Wrex I love how you keep asking this question on every video. Keep it up, I too want to see modern crew models. After all why did jets get updated pilots but not tanks.
Hey Gaijin team 2 quick questions. 1. Will you add modern day jets like the f14,f15,f16,f18,f22,f35,Rafael,eurofighter,mig25,mig 31,mig 29,su30,su 27,su34,su57 etc. And if yes when? 2. Will you ever add new countries like India, South Korea,etc. And again if yes then when. GAIJIN PLS REPLY
@@DelinaSilence oh I know them they kick Intel's ass for cheap prices but why would gaijin do that considering that Nvidia is a partner in war thunder and amd is a direct competitor to Nvidia maybe they are dumping Nvidia for AMD?
Gaijin please can we get the Chieftain 900 at some point down the line, it would be a nice line filler..... (and maybe the mk11 as well as a modification for the mk10 to add thermals to it)
The Centurion Action X never existed. Even the name of "Action X" was discovered in early 2000s. It was called The matletless centurion and was a prototipe turet made by UK for the stated that couldnt afford a chieftain so they could upgrade their cents. The name of Action X was writen on one of these turrents if i remeber corectly, but no official documents says anything about it. It is cool that we have it in game, only its name is wrong :)
@@wheely_boi_6846 What would ne weird about it? And wait... it is in the game, but it has the wrong name :) I dont judge Gaijin for that, Axion X sound cool asf
Sadly implementation in War Thunder isn't great, largely because the turret doesn't offer any protection against APFSDS, which you largely face up against at this tier, the APDS is sub-par compared to opponents, and the fact that opponents are almost always Germany instead of Russia... Really wanted to like this tank in War Thunder, sadly the odds are stacked against it
Fix the insane Repair costs on the Centurions and Caernarvon so we all don't go broke trying to get the bloody chieftans
Those tanks are broken at their br though
@@Martel_Clips are you sure
@@Martel_Clips a wehraboo in the wild
Yeah, I found that the Cent 1 is still fairly cheap to repair and still gives you a good round just not as nice of gun handling or armor. So I end up grinding like four matches in the Cent 1 for every match I play with the BR 7.0s.
@@Martel_Clips they already got their BR's raised to 7.0 because they were good at countering German vehicles, and we can't have that. Getting hit with that and a double-whammy repair cost increase is ridiculous.
Just one similarities between all of em:
They all use Tea as fuel!
They are all trash tanks in game, but very beautiful ones
Is a family car!
@@ЖанД-ч1л mk3 was once great for a while after it was added into the game
@@wei1474 idk i just bought mk.3 and its a beast in every 5 round at least 2 times i get 10 kills a round
Favorite Chieftain... which crushed Mr. Bean's poor little MINI Cooper
Hahahaha
Awhhhh u fookin reminded me i hate it now.poor him
Because of u I went to watch it again and cried again. Thanks
@@RhuBin02 your name stretches off the screen and into my room
@@Panzerschreck716 hahha that took me long enough to notice
My favorite Chieftain is Nicholas "The Chieftain" Moran.
lol,best comment ever
Me too
I sense Wargaming vs Gaijin debate incoming (maybe not)
That tank can escape fires
Hahaha we have the same taste
I mean a British tank isn't British if it doesn't has a Teamaker
It is necessary to eat and drink when in a hazardous environment!
Yeah I'm yet to work with a country that doesn't have a integrated way to boil water on almost all their vehicles, but the world loves the tea joke, so let them have it.
Oh the tea joke is more then warranted, sorry
@@spamuraigranatabru1149 agreed
@@SAbre5311 I mean the brits were the first to identify the problem and implement the boiling vessel PRECISLY becasue of teatime. everyone else copied it later
shows the 20 pdr when they talk about the L7 105 mm at 0:16 lol
Would be nice if I could play with my british tanks without losing money every goddamm time because my tanks cost 15k+ to repair
Crys in cent mrk 5
@@UserPendingDeletion only to get yeeted by a BMP
I love playing the chieftains. The Mk.10s turret is strong enough to stop even DM23.
These tanks are completely broken in the br's they fall so shut up british crybaby
@@jaobeatsss oh wow, because gaijin has no idea how to balance anything I have to pay 50k a game?
Heres hoping they add in the "Khalid" MBT, highly upgraded Chieftain tanks with 1200Horespower engines and the aiming system of the Challenger 1.
The Al Khalid Pakistani tank? That's a Chinese/Pakistani joint tank, more to do with the ZTZ
@@Avionicx nah that's the type 59 upgrade, coincidence
@@Avionicx No, the Khalid is a Chieftain variant. You're thinking of a similarly named, but very different tank.
If they do add it .. its gonna be a premium 😒🙄😒
@@themooch8752and it is. At 9.0.
The Chieftain is a beautiful beast.
Ur very humble considering ur a t-34
@@tkthegk_1394 The Chieftains have yet to infiltrate our Battle Ratings. We shall let them roam free. *For now.*
"You know you're fighting a brittish tank when the enemy stops for a tea break." -Josef Stalin.
Inside the Chieftain's Hatch
Lol , my fav show
I feel like the mk10 make me feel safer than the challenger
Love how it’s more expensive to run a Cent.10 than a chieftain.
What about the chieftain mrk11 with thermals?
The Germans got a Leo a5 with thermals
Why can't britian
Because they want to see radcancer 90 clubb poor brits
I love how everyone is on the same page about the British
Because GeRmAnY sUfFeRs
Give the Chieftains their APFSDS!
but the mk 10 has apfsds already im pretty sure
@@coldcommando4889 The Mk3 and the Mk5 if im not wrong should have too.
@@niamniam_thpyr No its only until the Mk.5/4 do Chieftains get APFSDS, as far as I'm aware. The Mk.5 ingame isn't the Mk.5/4 unfortunately but just the Mk.5 with the new engine.
@@NigelBlitz213 You're talking about in-game or IRL?
@anOKlamp Dude, for example the T55-AM1 has APFSDS and its at 8.3. But you're right, knowing how gaijin treats Britain they would probably go up
Mk.11, last of the true service gun tanks, added STILLBREW armour and TOGS thermal gunnery system. Still let down by the Leyland L60 in the back, but when it worked it was a very potent tank that could even today still pose a threat to just about anything on the battlefield with an even half awake crew in it. I may be biased though, I served on the old girls!!!
Before getting the chieftain, we need to spend a LOT of lion cuz of those astronomic repair cost on every british 7.0 tanks. why does it cost so much ?? Is it because it got stab at 7.0 ? Well ok but when u face 8.0 tanks with stab and heatfs shells u don't stand long, I went like bankrupt cuz of that. Can gaijin plz do something about that... 😭😭😭
Yep br improvement was enough of a nerf they either have to lower repair costs or put them at 6.7 again
If you want to whine about it, first play some soviet or German heavy tanks that have to face those
@@gentlemenbaiter5288 I think to lower the repair cost is the right option especially the caernarvon 19k !! Because if they put it again at 6.7 I already hear german Tiger II (H) players crying in the skirt of Erika
@@zmyslowykalosz don't worry haha I play german as well but the repair cost of german tanks are not that high, compare the two heavy tanks caernarvon and tiger II if I remember correctly the repair cost of the tiger II is like around 8k but the british one is 19k
Lol u talking about it's a broken tank at the br it's at If are decent u van make huge amounts of SL. If u want pain try the Tiger 2h in a uptier that's a good game ww2 with high repair Vs 1970w mbts
My favourite Chieftain is the one that's currently not having engine malfunctions
So none
What about BR decompression?
Remember in that April fools where T-90A was at 14.3 br xd
my favorite chieftain is the chieftain marksman. an episode on British SPAA would be cool, especially since there's that new ADATS in the British tree now.
Why do all chieftains and challengers have the same engine sounds, when they had very different engines? That's just lazy.
Attempt 1: Please fix your “Volumetric” shells.
'By the 80s the Chieftain was outdated, and left much to be desired' is that why the Soviets still deployed their most up to date tanks on whatever parts of the east / west german border where Chieftains were stationed
R.I.P, They forgot the SPAAG Variant: Chieftain Marksman which tested the Marksman system..
Ironically lt's the only chieftain I have.
What Bruce forgot to mention is that there was an Anglo-Israeli collaboration on the development of the Chieftain's latter stages. Then Britain pulled out of a deal so that they wouldn't feel the wrath of the Arab nations. One of the nations that the British sold the Chieftain to was Iran, which seriously backfired for them when the 1979 Iranian Revolution. The experience from the collaboration spurred the creation of the Israeli Merkava, the development programme of which was led by General Israel Tal, who had worked closely with the British in the Anglo-Israeli Chieftain project.
0:15. Praises L7, shows 20 pounder.
Chieftain Test Rig is a vehicle id love to see in War Thunder using a potentially planned Chobon armour.
They still use the chieftains in Oman i believe, as well as in Iran, which has developed a lot of its newer MBTS off of the design.
I love this game however where is climbing the ranks with french aircraft?
Yeah i Questioned that too but i duno
no one cares bout France
V I V A L' I T A L I A
@@irapharel3205 Climbing Chinese aircraft is much easier.
@@theus663 because they are all copied
it retreated back to france
You forgot to mention its use in the Gulf War especially in the Battle of the Bridges in1991
playing WT on one screen, and watching WT on the other 😌
same
Next : G.91 family !
I remember back when I first grinded the British tree before the sabot buffs, I absolutely hated the chieftain. It was slow, and the gun was awful. But then gaijin buffed sabot shells, a couple of times I think, actually; and it was like flipping a switch. Combined with a BR reduction, the chieftain mk 3 and 5 absolutely rip. Dependable and deadly, like the best British tanks.
Tbh the whole chieftain tech tree is fun to grind, all those times dying in game just to full spade every variant is a pain and joy
the tea maker is the absolute must in British tanks.
There is no “tea maker” it’s literally just something that boils water that you can use for rations or drinks, most modern vehicles have them
My favourite Chieftain is the one that won the CAT’70 NATO tank competition.
Thank you for making this video!! Chieftains are my favorite tanks!!
The one that you probably missed, the Mk.11.
i hope we get shir 1 and shir 2 MBTs(specialzed versions of chieftain and one of chalenger prototypes for iranian army) as an event tank for british techtree in the future.
The track expose so much , which mean more tea time for me
British and Swedish. Smart players will understand
Ah
It’s only the centurions that were used by both not the chieftains
Ksi and pewds?
@@atrashplayer5548 i know, but thats not the joke.
Having to research your enemies weakpoints?
My favorite Chieftain is the MK3 cause the 20mm coax is useful against helicopters
A true british tank indeed. I hope the next upgrade is the stabilized teacup holder for the crew
Merry early Christmas War Thunder team, especially the favourite voice of the videos, Bruce Grant! I doubt there will be more videos in the next 2 days so I'm wishing you a Merry Christmas now.
Chieftains may have the advantage of armor that time but not the technology
Feeling first with 10 others.
Lmao
Lol
Okay lets get some things straight. The first Chieftains were not very mobile. They were more than 10 tons overweight and their Leland L60 multi-fuel engine was underpowered. The first Chieftains had to be winched onto tank transporters as they couldn’t get up the ramps. The L60 was also hopelessly unreliable and would plague British Chieftains throughout their service. The 700+ condor engines were only ever fitted to export models and the Chieftain 900 prototype. Mobility problems were partially fixed with an improved L60, which didn’t actually have any more horse power, and a new transmission. Despite their shortcomings Chieftains were THE most powerful tank in the world, Albee to shrug off T-55, T-62, T-64 and even early T-72 rounds. They were bumped down to the second most powerful when the Leopard 2 tank showed up. Chieftains were retired by the British in the 1990s but are still in service with Iran and I believe Jordan might also have a few still going.
Chieftain 10 absolutely phenomenal tank!!
lol that leopard 1 graveyard on 4:30 XD!
btw my favorite cheif if the mark 3
MEGA VIDEO !! VERY WELL COMPILATION INFO! I'm starting to warm ...A LOT! to WAR THUNDER : my military service was around SARACEN APCs initial yrs ...then much later CVRT SPARTAN CMDR CRSE ..twice. during which I learnt a lot from others who had been doing /working CVRT much longer! being in W. GERMANY 1978 -1981 then rtng in late 81 ...we were deployed on EX CRUSADER 1980 AND later EX LIONHEART "84 BOTH OF WHICH were a TANKERS zenith and highlight! I'm a wogeller at heart ...and I'm in process of putting a photo set together for a UK VETERANS MODELLING GRP. SO! dusting off those TAMIYA CHIEFTAINS ETC and many others. FAVE CHIEFTAIN MK 5 Managed to get an early mk of the 1-25 scale TAMIYA CHIEFTAIN ;NEVER had seen one other than catalogue pics!?. SHE really needs some TLC! GREAT CHNL THANKS LADS!
I remember when the chieftain was first released, it was a complete nightmare as it was Britain vs everyone.
as an iranian , i've heared they had some engine trouble fighting the russian/chinese tanks like t55 and t72s but still they saved my country.
We also learned from the Iranian Revolutionary Guard fighting Saddam's Iraqi army about the Chieftains flawed turret armour, thus the stillbrew upgrade was born.
It took almost 4 minutes for him to say the first chieftain like ok gaijin
Will there be a challenger family video?
From challenger(5.7 ww2) to challenger 2F
we brits can't live without tea. even in battle where your blowing your enemies up but still have to a have a sip of that lovely brew.
You guys should the mig family starting from the first MiG you can unlock (in rank 2) and to the last mMiG you can currently unlock (top tier)
Nevermind the Chieftain, why don't you sort out my Challenger 2F instead of making it out paper with a pea shooter you buff it to what it is operationally like in the field - actual armour with an unbroken L27A1! I feel like I'm driving around a toy tank all the time. Gaijen the king of broken vehicles.
Wot player when they see this thing added to war thunder: *ptsd intensifies*
Angry Jingles Intensifies
Have a merry Christmas Bruce
Video suggestion: the Yakovlev family
Focke wulf 190 and Hawker Hurricane/Typhoon/Tempest series would be nice
Ah the FV4202... Great tank but unfortunately I can't play it anymore because of a ridiculous 16k SL repair cost that made me give up on the British tech tree
If the tank have a tea boilers, it definitely a British tank.
The centurion is one of my favorites British tanks besides the FV4005 witch is my first favorite tank
Well I mean the fv 4005 is also a centurion, Based on one I guess but fv 4005 to the Cent is the su 85 to the t34
Ya some what lol
You guys should redo the Centurion Family but instead of starting with the Sweden start it from the nation that created it the UK
My favourite chieftain is R3 T20 at 7.0 br
Well... when the battle gets tough tea is the best solution
Just finished christmas tree so there is my question to you Gaijin.
Q: Would you add modern crew models for vehicles with visible crew? Such as Type 93, Duster, M163 Vulcan etc.
Happy christmas may next year would be better for you and your community ASWELL.
Urdnot Wrex
I love how you keep asking this question on every video. Keep it up, I too want to see modern crew models. After all why did jets get updated pilots but not tanks.
@@sargesacker2599 they will never beat up Krogans.
These kind of videos are just Perfect to learn english
The cheiftain is one of my favorites ❤
2:14 To test a *_mantlesslest_* gun mounting
Hey Gaijin team 2 quick questions.
1. Will you add modern day jets like the f14,f15,f16,f18,f22,f35,Rafael,eurofighter,mig25,mig 31,mig 29,su30,su 27,su34,su57 etc. And if yes when?
2. Will you ever add new countries like India, South Korea,etc. And again if yes then when. GAIJIN PLS REPLY
Day 1 of hoping for reply
6:06 "AMMD Logistics"
I see what ya did there
I saw it but I don't understand playing explain
Vandan Sonkar AMMD as in AMD which is an electronics manufacturer known for their affordable CPUs
@@DelinaSilence oh I know them they kick Intel's ass for cheap prices but why would gaijin do that considering that Nvidia is a partner in war thunder and amd is a direct competitor to Nvidia maybe they are dumping Nvidia for AMD?
mm yes, the nice roar of the chieftain's engine
cool stuf but Where is A-10 Thunderbolt ?
In a folder on some dev's PC waiting to be added sometime in the future
I love this tank on br 9.0 with apfsds it’s enough to pen lower panel of turms
The Brits at 4.3 - 5.7 are extremely trolley, especially top down with 37mm
Chieftains are still effective today
Mentions L7 shows 20-pdr
*facepalm*
is it just me or he always say "the team behind the project"
Nah man you just drunk go back to sleep :p
@@ikill-98 yeah man ive just been driking alot thanks
Gaijin please can we get the Chieftain 900 at some point down the line, it would be a nice line filler..... (and maybe the mk11 as well as a modification for the mk10 to add thermals to it)
Funny how they point out the coax was for ranging but in the game it doesn't range for HESH properly.
my fav chieftain is t95/fv4201 chieftain.
British priority:
1. Crew Safety
2. Firepower
3. Tea Making Space
My favourite cheiftan, noone, cuz i have the vickers which are less expensive and more Fun to play
who did the research for this... utter load of cobblers.
Since I’m british thanks for making this video
How about the t-72 tank family, maybe the t-90 could be there since it's basicly an upgraded version aswell
not enough exhaust smoke for it to be a chieftain and what happened to all my
reverse gears ,last time i drove one it had 6 of'em
The Centurion Action X never existed. Even the name of "Action X" was discovered in early 2000s. It was called The matletless centurion and was a prototipe turet made by UK for the stated that couldnt afford a chieftain so they could upgrade their cents. The name of Action X was writen on one of these turrents if i remeber corectly, but no official documents says anything about it. It is cool that we have it in game, only its name is wrong :)
Yea but I think matletless turret centurion is gonna be weird ingame..
And the turret was left to rot outside the Bovingdon tank museum which it still lays there to this day
@@wheely_boi_6846 What would ne weird about it? And wait... it is in the game, but it has the wrong name :) I dont judge Gaijin for that, Axion X sound cool asf
@@rayhan_2k841 Yup, there were 3 turrets on total, but only one survived
I have a question will you guys ever make all vehicles test drivable?
Probs not
Still hitting ghost shells
Add BESH as ammo to the chieftain!
Just bought my first jet and helicopter since they are on sale and I gotta say they are pretty epic
Should be able to have a tea brake mid match to improve crew stats lol
chieftain mk 10 👑
My fav chieftain is a burning chieftain
What is About Chieftain Mk 11/12/13 800/900 before the Chally 1 ? I want the Chieftain Mk 12 and 800/900 ingame pls
“I’m not joking”
Me: how stereotypical of the British
I have a question why british tank BR 7.0 FV4202 ,Cent mk.3,Caernarvon are so exspensive to repair it already been nerf
Well how about sweden
Sadly implementation in War Thunder isn't great, largely because the turret doesn't offer any protection against APFSDS, which you largely face up against at this tier, the APDS is sub-par compared to opponents, and the fact that opponents are almost always Germany instead of Russia... Really wanted to like this tank in War Thunder, sadly the odds are stacked against it