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Imagine, you put an amount of lesbians that isnt zero in a room and let thrm discuss how a 30 year old movie written in the mindset of the time was problematic. "Uh, have you ever been nive to a MAN, uh, all men". What a shallow dumn PoS.
Naw cause I didn't fully watch the Riverdale TV series but I know at the end it was like they all end up being together in like one big relationship and they showed Betty and Veronica together but for some reason they thought that Archie and Jughead were a little too much? C'mon now🤦.
@@Dinobilly425 If they had Jughead discover at the end that he was asexual on the show that would have been fine. Dosen't make sense for everything that happened but fine if they wanted to be closer to the comics. However I'm just saying that they used the "hot straight not so straight gal plas with each other" thing for those two but felt weird about doing the same with the two male best friends. Jughead was still sleeping with Veronica and Betty. I just thought if it was going that route go all the way. They were making it so obvious that Veronica and Betty were just a teaser for the straight male eyes in my opinion.
Jughead doesn't love men, women, nonbinary, nothing. Not unless you're a burger. If you identify as a burger, you may have a shot with him, but he EXCLUSIVELY eats out so... make of that what you will. I can already smell the grease coming from a burg/er pronoun-ed Jughead fic of some sort... and someone out there has probably written it.
I would actually love to see a remake of this movie written by queer writers 'cause this movie does have a lot of queer themes and I'd like to see them explored from a queer perspective rather than a straight person's perspective of queer people.
There's a whole anime that needs viewing before it. It'd be like showing bisexual west coast winter girls Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me without the entire show before it@@ConvincingPeople
Specifically the incels in denial about being incels. I'm talking total white knights who then call women b*tches when their creepy worship doesn't get them laid.
Honestly, as a bisexual woman I understand why Alyssa identified as a lesbian. Like, if my young experiences with men had been filled with public humiliation and degradation, as was seen with Alyssa’s high school nickname put into the yearbook, I too would just say “I’m a lesbian” and never date men again. The label “lesbian” would give her social cover, in that men would know to give up on her and that fewer people would peek into her sexual history. Why identify as “bisexual”, which in 1997 was not taken seriously anyway, and even allow men to consider the idea that they could date you? And honestly, the movie proved Alyssa was right! Holden, the first man she had dated in years, treated her terribly and reacted extraordinarily horrible to learning about her history. Basically, I think it’s fine that Alyssa chose to identify as she did.
I like that Evasive noted that people seeing it for the first time now have a different perspective on this than people who saw it and liked it when it was released. It was a very different world then in terms of both how society at large thought of gay & lesbian people and how gay and lesbian people thought of bisexuals. That contexts makes the experience of watching the movie at that time more nuanced than many people realize.
The idea that men would give up on trying to pursue lesbians after finding out they're a lesbian is patently false. Go to a gay bar with a big lesbian population and I guarantee you a not insignificant portion of the lesbians there hold deep trauma about a man who thought he could "fix her" with his maleness.
tbf, I watched this for the first time shortly after it came out, and was already identifying as bisexual back then, and I *always* read Alyssa as bi, but identifying as lesbian for convenience (for lack of a better term). The answer she gave about "not limiting herself" to one gender was particularly relatable to me, and doesn't make sense as an origin story if by doing so, she was actually still limiting herself to only one gender. It feels like she started spending more time in queer circles, and that meant surrounding herself with lesbians, and that meant she was dating other women, and lesbian seemed to make sense. I imagine if the movie were made today she'd ID as queer or fluid. Obviously, the lesbian identity was important to her, as she had the whole speech about being "fucking gay, that's who I am." It was her identity and her community, but based on the actual text of the film, I don't think it ever seemed like an accurate representation of her innate attraction
I'm addition, the lesbian and bi communities used to be a lot more intwined before the biphobes came in and put a wedge between lesbians and bisexuals in what had been a mixed community
"men would know to give up on her" baby i have news for you about men when it comes to lesbians, the idea that men have ever historically respected lesbian's lack of attraction to them is wild
So I think the point is missed a little bit. As a bisexual woman a bit older than you folks, being bisexual in the 90s and early 2000s really really sucked. We were basically cut out of both straight and lgbtq+ society when we were outed. We were either "in a phase" or "picking sides". You all picked up and some points, like Bens character is supposed to be an idiot and jumps to wrong conclusions, but kind of missed others. Like the fact that Alyssa was quite literally ousted by her lesbian friends when it turned out she might be more bisexual, which actually happened a lot even when I was a teen in the early 2000s to men and women. Kevin Smith wasn't trying to rewrite the romcom or claim to crack the code on "fixing lesbians" but sharing a story of his past/airing a sin he made and hope people learn from it. Weinstein house made the advertising into "how to hook a lesbian". Also Banky, classic example of someone in the mid genX age group in the closet struggling with their sexuality. He was very clearly in love with Holden. I clocked that when I was 11 or 12
Yeah, the subtext with Banky here, even ignoring Smith's later films entirely, is pretty pronounced and surprisingly layered. There's a very specific type of heteronormative bravado that certain closeted male-presenting people often lean into when they're trying to repress more complicated feelings about their sexuality or gender which I think he exemplifies immaculately. But despite this, the whole threesome incident demonstrates that he's a little more self-aware than he lets on, and certainly more so than Holden. Which is a low bar, but still. :P
@@ConvincingPeopleas a gay teen I liked the movie because it shows the messy parts of being closeted. Not the cut and dry coming out early type stories.
Yep. I came out as bi in the 90s. I joined the campus Gay And Lesbian Alliance. No B or T in the name, although the group seemed open enough. Then I started dating a guy and appearing like a straight woman. I wanted to remain in the queer community but I felt increasingly awkward. No one directly said I didn’t belong. I’d just get these confused looks, like, “why are you here?” I’m glad there’s more bi awareness now.
this was always my reading of the film. Alyssa never gets to fully own her sexuality because no one allows her to, not just Holden. it isn't a perfect movie but it meant a lot to me back then.
Yeah, I've just written a comment saying much the same thing. As soon as the commentators all started saying they were born in the 90s or 00s I thought they were definitely going to come to the conclusion that Alyssa really was a lesbian who got won over by a guy, rather than that she was always bisexual but was saying she was a lesbian because it was easier and safer to do so, which is the reading that I think makes the most sense given the time and the place. And, you know, the fact that Alyssa doesn't ever indicate that she didn't enjoy the sex with men and boys she had in high school or wasn't attracted to the people she was having sex with. As I said in my other comment, there's a tendency to take what characters in films say at face value because dialogue is how filmmakers convey information to the audience. But we know we can't take what Banky says at face value, so why should we take Alyssa at face value when she says she's a lesbian? I mean, it's because usually when a character says something like "I'm a lesbian" it's a writer trying to tell the audience that that character is a lesbian. But people are more complicated than that and often do put themselves in boxes in which they don't really belong because it's a way to protect themselves. You just have to come to the conclusion that the characters are slightly more complex than just the first thing they say.
For some reason i imagine Evasive on the street looking for queer people and being like "hey do you wanna react to a shitty movie while eating good food?"
Irrc Evasive mentioned that the main casts of these vids are usually searched from queer open mic nights(this might be incorrect). Which is just a funny to imagine leaving a set and someone saying “you’re funny want to watch the bad stonewall movie?”
Honestly? If someone randomly ran up to me and asked me to do an impromptu commentary on a movie I've never seen with a bunch of other queer people I'd take them up on that. I am starved for social situations, someone please actually make me this offer.
2:20: "Don't worry, Lesbians! The premise of my film may *seem* homophobic, but it actually has *nothing* to do with you! It's all about *men* and our insecurities!" Lesbians: ...... Yeah, we know.
@@AmyAberrant People cope with their anxieties in different ways. What works for you doesn't necessarily works for someone else. I give Kevin a lot of credit for not hurting people close to him while making his work.
wait oh no the scene where the friend group gets into a long stupid argument about whether or not fictional characters are gay is literally me and my friends he just like me fr
Yup , i remember them conversations I still remember my gay friend telling us that Bobby Drake/Iceman was bisexual and come to find out he was for years
As problematic as some parts of this film are. I do like the way it explores men being insecure about women, their sexuality and the idea of appearing to not be masculine. Especially with how a lot of young men are right now, it’s definitely held up in some areas, and completely aged horribly in others 😂
It's pretty obvious that Alyssa is the victim. She undergoes tremendous pain and heartbreak because she takes a chance on a guy who CLEARLY is in over his head and not knowing how to face his own bullshit. AND she had reservations about it beforehand. I've never watched this film and took away that it was about the men as much as it was what this poor woman goes through because of them.
How do you feel about the gay male character leaning into homophobia and misogyny? I liked it because it's something a lot of gay teens might lean into to appear more masculine and shows how homophobia is directly related to gender roles. But it might of been incidental.
@@johnindigo5477 That may have been incidental. They're both from New Jersey which is very Catholic, very Italian and Irish heritage so the homophobia and male posturing would be massive. The film plays Banky as a guy who is so closeted he may not even know he's gay, he may think his homoerotic inclinations are intrusive thoughts or signs of some type of weakness caused from a lack of sex with women. Also, if this is '97, then these guys were born in the early 70s, so the use of homophobic slurs would have been boilerplate; you would say "fag" and "retarded" the same way you'd say "thing" or "stuff."
I'll give Kevin this about this movie...he acknowledged the hypocrisy with how society views homosexual men ,especially black men(and that he had to hide it and pretend to be a stereotypical straight pro black overly masculine man to even get a deal in the comic genre) and he didn't use it as a joke or prop like so many films have before , then , and sadly to this day still use
I liked it as a gay teen because it wasn't... sanitized. It wasn't a perfect breakdown of coming out and all the tropes. It was chaotic, cringy, and fun. Lots of twist Realistic gay characters that get to be imperfect and grow.
"If I had a nickel for every film about Ben Affleck falling in love with a lesbian, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't much but it's weird it happened twice"
I had a dude who I rejected because I'm not really into dudes (he's still a friend) refer to my situation as "Chasing Amy." That's how I ended up watching it... and I was mortified.
Not because it's a bad movie. The film was clear that Alyssa was bi and felt ostracized in the Queer community because of bisexual erasure and the kind of feminism that was popular at the time. I was mortified by what I think he was trying to say *about me* at the time, but I didn't have access to most TV and movies when I was growing up. I still haven't confronted him about it.
@@fancyorangemittens yeah I love the movie, but thats gross. Its like how you can enjoy Scott Pilgrim, but if a guy starts calling you his Ramona Flowers, run.
Oh wow that was a dick move. Chasing Amy is actually my favourite movie ever. I know it has issues, even back when it came out it sparked debate in the lgbtq community, and is worse off viewed with a modern lense. But I love that it's a passion project where the filmmaker puts their own sins on trial. It feels like it has something ernest and vulnerable to say so it's always hit me real hard in the countless times I've seen it. And my big takeaway from it had been to examine my insecurities, where they come from, are they helpful to me, how do they affect others and how to let go off them. It's a little saddening to see someone use this film to essentially almost validate and celebrate their insecurities, putting them on the other person. But I guess it's also interesting to see that not everyone got the same from the film as me. For me though I know that this movie massively influenced who I am today and I'm a more open minded and understanding person for it.
In a weird way, I respect that this film is by and large a guy reckoning with his own unprocessed misogynistic baggage and putting himself on blast in a really uncompromising way, and there is something to be said for a fairly mainstream movie in the '90s calling out biphobia from monosexual queer people in the scene with Alyssa's lesbian friends, but I feel like this film *seriously* could've used a ground-up rewrite by someone like, say, Guinevere Turner, if only to refine and add some depth to the film's more caustic and messy aspects.
I have to say plenty of lesbians I knew hated Guenevere Turners work. I guess so little is made for us, we expect all artists to appeal to all of us, which never happens in the straight world. Movies are always controversial.
There is truly not enough credit given to this movie that’s a QUARTER OF A CENTURY old, written by a straight man about toxic masculinity and queerness when these topics wouldn’t even hit mainstream the way we know now for at least another decade. How quickly we forget how far we’ve come. It’s shocking how much of this movie holds up well tbh
Yes I think it holds up well. But then I am gen X so I don't have the perspective of younger people. They haven't had the same experience and take for granted ideas that we had to fight so hard for. It's weird to hear people say parts have aged badly, but not be quite sure which parts are being referred to. (To be clear there are parts of the film I find repugnant, but no one speaks about these directly.)
Fr fr yeah it has problems but I actually appreciate this film. Holden is immature and insecure, he’s a dumb dumb and just because he’s the protagonist doesn’t mean his behavior is endorsed. And while not explicitly stated, it’s clear to me that Alyssa is a bisexual woman with trauma related to men. And it was safer for her to say she was a lesbian, because then at least she had a place to belong. I don’t hate this film at all, i think Smith did a fair job on this, and he clearly has thought about and learned from feedback over time.
I think people tend to miss that you can write a character as unlikable. Youre not supposed to sympathize with the protagonist. Its a critical look at everything he did wrong. But people tend to think just because the story is told from their perspective, that it automatically shows endorsement from the writer.
I agree on this actually, I think part of that is the viewers not having the full story on Kevin Smith here, which is on me tbh because I didn’t do my research before the showing
These dummies were cheering for Alyssa's lines and booing Holden's as though they weren't written by the same person, that kind of nuanced thinking is beyond them (or being more charitable, beyond the scope of this as a "fun" exercise)
@@lithium yeah it's almost like stories should hold up on their own terms and not just when you know the fucking kevin smith lore! I liked the movie too but acting like it's the viewers fault for not engaging with a movie thats got some pretty ugly shit to say about gay people is some basic bitch media literacy like damn dude haven't you ever heard the phrase the road to hell is paved with good intentions?
@@fauxrowsdower7610 Speaking of media literacy, it's a movie about a guy who's an idiot, and every other character in the movie tells him he's an idiot, and the actual writer of the movie appears in the movie telling him he's an idiot. Then the protagonist realizes he is indeed an idiot. And some people watch this movie and their conclusion is that the filmmaker's beliefs are the same as the character.
Banky's behaviour makes a lot more sense once you realise that he is deeply in love with Holden and a large amount of antipathy to Alyssa is due to jealousy.
Smith went on a college tour answering fans questions and its available as a film of some sort. In it a lesbian questioned him about having that joke in the movie and how it was offensive to propagate that and he pointed out that was the point, it was made by a closeted gay man who was a jealous misogynist who was in love with his best friend.
As an independent lesbian filmmaker, can I just say how *grateful* I am that you pointed out an upcoming independent documentary by another queer artist that's STILL showing at festivals? IK this sounds kind of "aah pretentious art school student" of me but I genuinely appreciate you mentioning it. There are so many incredible independent films that don't get seen by the public because they're just unaware of their existence. I think it's super cool that your using your platform to elevate other lgbt productions, so thank you for that :) It made my night and gave me something to keep my eye out for. EDIT: And local comedians!!! Ahh :D
Chasing Amy definitely falls into that category of being great as a time capsule for the social politics of queerness, from a straight perspective, at the time. Doesn't age well in ways, but it provides interesting context for the era. It also shows that, even if Kevin Smith understands gay people enough to write them well (shoutout Hooper), at the end of the day this film still struggles to leave the bounds of its very straight perspective. Would've loved to see what it would've looked like with a lesbian at the writing table.
Honestly, I don't think the idea that Alyssa “rethinking” her sexuality upon getting to know Holden is that bad. That type of complex queerness isn't unrealistic. And with the angle this movie takes on male jealousy and entitlement to women sex lives, including the fact that Alyssa had already explored her sexuality before hand, I don't think it falls too bad into the “male fantasy of turning a lesbian”. I was genuinely surprised that she ended up with a women in the end and Holden faced the consequences for being a misogynistic prick. I agree with you that I would have loved to see this movie with a bigger sapphic influence. I think it's biggest problem is just how much it focuses on the men (rather than the women) and how it definitely seems like it wants its audience to have at least a little sympathy for them, even if we're ultimately supposed to disagree with their actions. Other than that, I would have loved to see a bit more of discussion around sexuality and queerness within the community, not just the straight view of it.
@@KernelHughesIt isn't that gen x is that great, just better than what came before it in many ways. I'm grateful I was a queer teenager in a small town in the 90's and not the 70's or 80's. The music was great, tho.
@@KernelHughes As a Gen X'er, it was better than generations before, as have the generations that have come after Gen X. That was the whole idea of Queer rights from the beginning. To make things better for the generations ahead of us. I'm happy that I could help with opening straight people's eyes of how Queer people are not scary, sex crazed, groomers and dangerous to society. But just people who want to be treated with respect.
Chasing Amy is such a weird film to go back to because on the one hand, it's aged a lot better than folk give it credit, but on the other hand it's aged exactly as badly as you'd expect.
I'm a straight man, and I absolutely adored this movie not because of the male fantasy but because of what it taught. That if someone is into me today, I don't have to live up to their past, and while their past makes up apart of who they are now, the past is in the past and it's not my place to judge them.
It’s also the best representation of bringing to light the dangers and risks of having a threesome with the girl being in the middle between two male friends. JLA's dialogue hits it on the head, and says what everyone is thinking but never says. As a straight male, it did bother me how disgusted most were reacting when Alyssa chose to embrace and kiss Holden. I think it’s fair to say that if straight men responded in this way to say, gay men, it would come off as less than favorable. Some might use the word “homophobic.” Am I missing something, or is there perhaps an unspoken double standard? It came off as a bit of a personal distaste for men. Not all of us are boundary pushing chauvinists. If I developed a crush on a woman that preferred the company of other women, I would keep it to myself. It’s my problem. How I feel is not someone else’s problem. I’ll take the hit and move on.
The clue is in the names of the characters: Holden and Banky. Holden Caulfield is the protagonist and narrator of the novel Catcher in the Rye. Ed Banky is the name of another character in the novel. The novel also contains themes of jealousy and repressed homosexuality. But the whole point of the novel is that Holden is an unreliable narrator. He tells stories about how everyone else is wrong, but we the reader can read through the lines and see that he is petty, jealous, and is to blame for his own problems.
@@angrynerdgirl "AVC: I have to ask, at least partly because you didn’t mention her name at all: How was Sean Young to work with? Tim Daly: Uh… [Gestures to the recorder.] Turn that off, and I’ll tell you."
In the context of the 90s, there really was a lot of stigma against bisexuality as for wishy-washy people who wouldn't commit. Alyssa makes sense to me as someone who identified as a lesbian because she liked women & there was a lesbian community to be had and the social space where it was OK to be bi was only half there. I was in high school when this came out & in theater & several of the girls I knew really identified with Alyssa's struggle after feeling unwelcome in lesbian social meet-ups.
For me I always liked this movie because it challenged me to be a more sympathetic partner. By the end of the movie I always hated Afleck's character because he threw away a relationship due to his ego and prejudice. It made me reflect on how I viewed my relationships in the past and I realized that I was judgemental of one of my partners and had to confront my own insecurities. I'm a straight male so I can't comment on the other aspects of the movie though
I love Kevin Smith as a genuine dude who grows, who does what he loves, who's just a very open and vulnerable dude... he's a good guy. I think he looked back and realized the issues in his old flicks and reflects earnestly. And plus I think he's just a big FAN of stuff and he's really enthusiastic about things he's doing. I like that sort of genuine enthusiasm from a public figure and creative. He doesn't seem elusive or snooty or anything. He's very outspoken and self-deprecating, and sweet-seeming guy just trying to do the right thing and he comes across as just a very "genuine" person. I see real heart in him that's so rare. People are immature and what matters is that people can change, can reflect, etc.
I don’t think there’s ever gonna be a firm feeling on this movie because of how rawly human it is. There’s a disturbing amount of reality beneath the layer of romcom, and while it’s clearly written for the monologue about insecurity, the experiences it’s commenting on don’t feel any faker for it. It all comes across as people being people with all the stupidity and pain and dissatisfaction that comes with living. Ends up feeling like trying to turn a person’s shortcomings into morality tales. Some people get motivated, some people judge it, everyone ends up uncomfortable acknowledging the personhood at the center of it all. If there’s anything Kevin Smith accomplished with this, it’s managing to make people sit through a close examination of a straight man’s emotions without having to rely on self-pity to carry it all.
As a lifetime bisexual who watched this movie as a young adult when it first came out and still doesn't know how to feel about it, I am thrilled to to welcome new viewers to my club. :) I hate so much of it. I love so many of Amy's reactions. And of course, Kevin Smith wrote those. But he wrote the rest of it too.
i am SO SORRY but comics jughead is canonically aro/ace and i will NOT stand for any other speculation on his sexuality, be it through a straight or gay lens /: that being said, i am willing to hear peoples' arguments on archie's character
It's a movie that gets a lot wrong, but also doesn't exactly poise Holden as "good" person. He's intentionally flawed and his viewpoints follow suit. I think it never glorifies him and rather shows him as a stubborn manchild that does some pretty severe emotional damage to Alyssa by the end and I do think that's all in the DNA of the movie. Jay & Silent Bob Reboot has a sort of cute bow on this where they reconcile and become creative partners, something that shows their connection went deeper than sex...probably the only good thing in that movie. Kevin deserves some props for at least taking that arrested development angst he showed off in Clerks and Mallrats and try to say SOMETHING with it rather than just keep pumping out the same stories of mid-20s aimlessness. I wholeheartedly agreed that it's an uneven movie, but there's some good stuff there.
As someone with a chosen family and living the pan experience, these group commentaries are always comforting and a breath of fresh air for me. This episode was BRILLIANTLY GLORIOUS.
@@crystalic_heart That's not up to you ,let alone anyone to judge. Last year, Kevin has admitted being molested when he was a kid and he received some help. I'm glad he didn't hurt anyone underage.
@@Madbandit77 Im not judging and neither does the OP, the comment is just a joke. I agree that expressing yourself via creatig art is therepically great but it doesnt exclude going to therapy and unpacking your issues with a therapist. Also, does Kevin Smith being molested as a child matters here? Nothing he makes shouldnt be judged because of that? Or we are suppoused to applaud him or something for not commiting a crime?
As a queer woman i actually love this movie and think it's one of kevin smith's best works 🥲 like it's got so much to say about internalized homophobia (banky's whole existence), biphobia/bi erasure (alyssa and her friends), the entire tired concept of men thinking they can "turn" a lesbian and sexual fluidity in general. It's simultaneously dated and ahead of its time in themeing imo. I will say i never knew the details about the behind the scenes drama and really appreciated that context. Ty for the documentary rec!
I feel like most of Kevin Smith's films that he wrote come from a place of self reflection. Clerks has him reflecting on his misery and the fear of living a meaningless life. Dogma has him reflecting on his problems with religion. I see his films less as trying to tell a grand scheme message and more just a journey through his own feelings. So even if Kevin is objectively wrong, in which regarding certain aspects in this film, he is, its less about him being right about something and more about coming to terms with what his feelings on a subject actually are. I have no idea if what i said even makes sense to me 😅
That's true for all writers. All writers usually write about subjects their fascinated or insecure about. With that being said, this movie is still deeply flawed and problematic.
you really didn't see many other people say a word about doing that kind of thing, despite soooo many people having the weinstein name on their films. a lot of things about Kevin's films may seem cringey from the modern perspective but he does genuinely seem like a good dude trying to learn and do the right thing.
@@cobaltsiren Kevin won't even try to take Dogma back because he knows it means having to give Harvey money or any type of power or feeling that he's still has some weight in the industry to pull and he'd rather not have his movie than do that.
@@mikochaos6310 God for him but that sucks since it seems to be kind of lost now. Not available to watch online and I'm sure the latest physical release is out of print.
As a terribly insecure straight teen in the 90s, I loved CHASING AMY for showing me how normal that was across the spectrum. And, for teaching me there even was a spectrum. The concept of being gay was something my friends and I used to denounce each other, or anyone, or anything, really, for not acting or being "manly". Lesbians were simply two or more women together in a porno magazine. And, I didn't even know that bisexuality existed. I loved comics, I feared women and I was a crass loud mouth. I was pre-revelation Banky. Naturally, I thought he was hilarious -- until, he wasn't... CHASING AMY gave me a course correction. I learned being gay and lesbian were far more than my pathetic and insulting understanding. It showed me how NOT to think and act when feeling insecure around, or within a relationship, intimate or otherwise. In short, despite this film's inaccuracies and hindsight missteps, Kevin Smith helped me, and I have to believe, many other young straight men, to be a better person. Judge less, accept more. I'll always love CHASING AMY for that. Enjoyed the video and appreciated the research put into it.
love stories like this, this is exactly why this movie is so complicated to talk about. It seems like for every one person who didn’t like this movie there’s another who was profoundly affected by it. thank you for commenting 💖
Token Straight Guy here, the Hartford Whalers were a NHL team back when Chasing Amy was filmed; they moved to North Carolina and are now the Hurricanes. Just watched Chasing Amy a month ago. It was better than I expected, I really like how sympathetic Alyssa is and that the narrative actively criticizes Holden and Banky’s behavior. Hooper X deserves his own spin off. That being said, it’s definitely has plenty of flaws and doesn’t hold up well outside of acknowledging the story portraying queer issues in a time when most media avoided the subject.
The Matt Damon cameo is so funny to me with the knowledge that he OPENLY ADMITTED that his daughter had to tell him to stop saying the f word (no clue if TH-cam would let me type that so better to be safe than sorry). And he revealed this only a few years ago lmao
Banky's homophobia is so bad since he's the break out character for a lot of cis white straight dude viewers. BUT, quoting "The other three are figments of your fucking imagination" line led to several deep conversations about sexuality and male fragility in my peer group growing up. This movie was a mostly positive entry point to larger conversations about the sexual spectrum among dudes that would never watch queer film otherwise.
IDK, the things he says are kind of garbage but I feel like the subtext there makes him one of the more interesting characters in the movie (and honestly kind of nice to see for queer men in more masculine/nerdy spaces. How much of it is actual culturally instilled homophobia and how much of it is him not knowing how to deal with his own potential fluidity and overcompensating with homophobic bro language as a result? He unknowingly created his own little perfect comp-het narrative where he can be with Holden but never have to confront that his feelings are any deeper than a bro-y friendship but then it’s challenged by Alyssa (an openly queer person) who he feels is “stealing his man”. And then you get to the end of the movie where it’s finally spoken aloud and it can’t be put back. Things can never be like they were before between the two of them.
Reading all these comments from bi people and watching this video kinda made me think a lot of the issues with this film have to do with context. Like if it was primarily from Alyssa’s perspective and was clearly about a bi woman coming to terms with her sexuality after finding a place of acceptance only to have that safe space desecrated by the people she trusted, and was written by a bi-woman. I think the response would be very different. However I also think it’s a good thing this movie exists at all, because while it is clearly a film made for straight men, it’s something that I think a lot of us probably needed. It introduced queer ideas to people who otherwise would have NO context of this experience and would have their homophobic and biphobic views go unchallenged otherwise. It could’ve been made clearer that some of the things said are clearly just heteronormative fallacies. While it’s nice to imagine a better version of this film with a bi female writer and some of the rougher edges smoothed out, I think smiths heart was definitely in the right place, and confronting toxic heteronormative masculine beliefs through this lens is worthwhile, even if it’s imperfect.
I agree completely, that’s a big part of what makes this movie so complicated to talk about and why I’m not sure how to feel. Overall I think it was a net positive though especially reading these comments
As a lesbian of some age I enjoyed this. Also I saw Kevin Smith live sometime in the mid 2010s and the guy is just a chill funny dude who knows how to spin a good story.
My first boyfriend knew I was gay when he met me. He always said I was the ideal girl for him. His dream girl. Then he told me this was his favorite movie. I watched it and realized it he had been quoting it and that getting a lesbian as a straight man was a sort of fetish for him. I didn’t know how to feel about it. It was just weird. He made me feel bisexual. But I felt manipulated because some of the things he said to convince me were in this movie. To this day I’m very unsure if I’m actually bisexual or not. I definitely like women, but do I really like men? Idk. At the moment I’ve decided I’m asexual. I hate this movie. The acting was really good. The writing was good. But it is painful for me to even think about it because it will always represent the beginning of a very confusing relationship with my sexuality
Current lesbian, i used go be hyper sexual with men. Im gonna be honest the”turning a lesbian” story line is questionable BUT as a lesbian healing from sexual trauma with men, Alyssa’s more personal scenes spoke to me. Especially the scene after the hockey fight. So im actually very interested in this movie now and wanna watch it.
he's not turning a lesbian tho, she's bisexual but identifies as a lesbian either to avoid discrimination from friends or she's just unaware of bisexuality, but it's definitely not about a man turning a lesbian.
I think one of the issues that existed in that time period and even today, bisexuality is usually erased, if you are a guy that has had sex or a relationship with another man, even if you did and will continue to do the same with woman, you were just labelled as gay. The "lesbian film guide" is written in a more modern and probably knowledgeble. Smith was writting and making this in the 90's.
You sure did chase them Amys... most "worth it" green screen ever. Seriously though, seeing a new video from you pop up in my feed fills my little wizened heart with joy.
I think the whole aspect of her being secretly bisexual but feeling that she has to hide it and only date women would've worked perfectly if she was the protagonist, but is done such a huge disservice by being from his perspective.
I mean, this movie does have something to say but it is part of a snapshot of the 90's. We can look back at it from now and think, "whoa" that is pretty bad but compared to the rest, eh. It is a young man dealing with being shitty in relationships, bi-erasure, I think the other comic dude jason lee did have some form of affection for ben... and maybe even repressed feelings. It feels honest to the time period, it feels honest to how a lot of folks felt and acted then. It is also a film that if focused on comic book bros in their 20's.... and those guys are not the good guys, they aren't the adults, and they are wrong more often than not. The gay/lesbian/bi characters tended to be good people, the adults in the room. They weren't also magical characters that changed people, they were just people.
@@KernelHughesNo, there’s no good old days. I can feel nostalgia for the 80s & 90s, and still recognize all the problems. I can enjoy my memories, focus on the good stuff, and then acknowledge that’s what I’m doing. I had my fun back then - and I did lots of things that I deeply cringe at. Sometimes I think about the painful stuff and try to process it. Other times I might play “Girls Just Wanna Have Fun,” dance around, and forget all the sad/boring/awful stuff I went through.
At the time, for me, this movie was a life line. I had such fucked up views about sexuality from growing up in the bible belt, that it really helped me begin my journey out of that mess. I definitely see a lot of what they criticize in the film. I disagree with some. Overall I found it helpful and moving, not to live out some fantasy of turning a lesbian, but like Banky, began to understand I was bisexual. I eventually broke out of the indoctrination of my upbringing and this movie helped, so for me it is was a win, and I will forever be greatful for it. Great video. More video essays plz! :)
This movie is like the film version of Pinkerton. It’s a really honest expression of really gross feelings that a lot of young straight men (I’m sure women/queer people do as well but as a straight man I feel like I notice that most among other straight men) experience when they become insecure about their lack of sexual/relationship experience. But it’s often repellant to people who don’t identify with those feelings, especially because both of those things feed into really sexist and homophobic tropes that were common at the time and still exist today. I appreciate Chasing Amy for what it is, because it’s probably led me to having more healthy attitude towards sexual experience imbalance in partnerships but it’s also a movie where if someone told me they hated it I’d be like “oh yeah I get that”. Many women probably don’t want to watch this if they’ve had to deal with being on the other end of it in real life, or if they look at it from the perspective of a queer woman and go “what the fuck is this” like some of the women in this video.
I know this series is about having queer people watch rough, problematic movies with queer or queer adjacent-representation, but as a fat queer person, I would LOVE to see you get a group of fat queer people together to watch Shallow Hal (even though the movie is extremely straight). It fits the vibe in similar ways imho.
I remember thinking Holden’s compromise of a threesome at the end was insane even as a teenager. I never really liked his character that much. I went through something similar around that time, dating a bisexual girl who leaned lesbian at the time, but I was never under any delusion that I converted her or anything or ever felt threatened because she had more experience than I did at the time like Holden does with Alyssa. We just clicked really well at the time. She was the first person I can say I truly loved, and she had a huge impact on my life. We didn’t last, but I never resented her then and certainly wouldn’t now looking back.
Another amazing video. As a woman who went through her Hoe Phase in the 90s, no slut, gay straight or bi, should have to apologize! We deserve partners who love us.... and the people we are because of the journey we walked. I told my (now) husband about my past and he never shamed me or made me feel like I was less. We've been happily marriage and monogamous for 23 years. And I think the lesson we can all learn is to trust not Ben Affleck.... you heard one of his wives disappeared right?
I'd really like to see a remake of this written by queer women with this as the plot...Biphobia in lesbian spaces is so much more prevalent then people want to realize.
I kept being like what SA2 track is that? And then during the transition card to the reaction segment I realized it was Amy's theme. Because of Chasing Amy. Duh! I then promptly liked the video.
as a NB bisexual (making me an expert in all things bisexuality, i literally have a phd trust me bro) i have to say: this movie was kinda fun. the gay black guy (cannot remember his name, help me) is just, a slayful queen. i believe this film could've stuck the landing if it were able to properly walk the walk. i see the vision kevin had for it, and i see where it couldve gone, but i dont think kevin was the right man to take it there, especially at that point in his career. if a lesbian or bisexual woman were in the directors seat, chasing amy's themes would have been a lot less sloppy like ben affleck's character's kissing game. but also i kinda love this version for the crazy camp, the wackiness. as a writer however, if i could change this movie, i'd nix the romantic divulgence. my man will not tell poor alyssa he's fallen for her, and then he'd realise his misogyny, fix it, and then idk he and his friend start fucking cuz itd be funny and everyone wins and i dont have to sit through the cringe and "oh you stupid, stupid man" parts
your idea for the movie kinda ruins the whole point of holden's character and his development. him and banky wouldnt sleep together cause banky repressed his sexuality and only explored it after holden mentioned it, even so he was ashamed of it (jay and silent bob strike back) i get what u mean but ur proposing a completely different movie that doesnt work for these characters or ideas at all
A couple things.... - When Banksy and Allisa compare injuries, it was definitely a Jaws reference, the blue light boxes on the was were intended to referent to portholes on the boat in that scene. - And my biggest thing... the whole idea of "turning" a lesbian was NOT the point of the movie. As Smith said in Q&As when asked about that directly, that idea was only said by the idiot of the movie, Banksy. He cared for Holden and had moments looking out for him, but for the most part, his ideas of sexuality and relationships were wrong or at least out-dated... he said those things not because it was what the movie was trying to say, but to challenge the main characters who reject that and grow in a different direction.
I have a very werid relationship with Kevin Smith because when I went to film school in the early aughts he was seen by many of my classmates as like...the goal. Because he was a guy who "made it". I hadn't seen his movies at the time but the first of his I saw was Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, which I saw with my dad who was a big fan of Clerks and Dogma. After we left the theater he told me to watch Clerks. So I did. And I liked it. So I saw Mallrats. I loved it. I started to understand why my classmates were into him. These characters were talking about Star Wars and comic books - I loved those things too! And then I saw Chasing Amy. At the time I was still discovering who I was and that included my sexuality and Chasing Amy was my introduction to 'queer cinema' because I watched it, I didn't love it, I didn't hate it, and even today my feelings of it are...weird. I think Kevin Smith had his heart in the right place, for what that counts. The Kevin Smith of today would probably make a worse movie but also a more...honest one? I dunno. It's weird. But, because of Chasing Amy I did explore queer cinema which led me to watching The Watermelon Woman (released a year before Chasing Amy! Guinevere Turner is also in that!) and loving it! So if nothing else, Chasing Amy helped me broaden my budding horizons as a student of film. For better or worse. Looking forward to that Chasing Chasing Amy documentary.
While the film has issues because it’s written by a male who’s trying to see things from a woman’s perspective and failing, it isn’t as some have portrayed it, a fantasy for insecure men about converting a lesbian. If anything, it’s pointing out his faults. You see Holden as a selfish assh*le because you’re supposed to. The point of the movie is to make men relate to Holden, and then hold a mirror up to them so they see how that lesbian fantasy is idiotic and offensive. Was it clumsy?, sure, but in the end it meant well.
I love Chasing Amy. Unless you were a bisexual woman in the 90's, you could never fully understand how important and empowering this movie was to us bi ladies. It was the first representation of female bisexuality that I ever saw that actually gave the woman any sort of voice at all. Alyssa was a smart, strong self advocate- not just a ditsy s3x object. Alyssa having the steel ovaries to BE bisexual to begin with... to lose her lesbian "friends" because of it. AND to stand up for herself against these men who would slut shame her yet turn around and still expect her to be a sex object they could just share around. Yes, this WAS a documentary of what it was like back then. And yes Kevin Smith WAS saying something revolutionary for that time. Thanks to Joey Adams making him listen! This movie was just EVERYTHING!!! It was SO NESCESSARY! It was so hard to be bi in the 90's. But this movie spoke up for us! Joey Adams is a godess, and Kevin Smith also deserves so much appreciation for doing the work of personal growth and portraying misogyny and homobhobia to these dudes who NEEDED to recognize it in themselves. The movie doesn't "endorse" the way bisexual women were (and still sometimes are) treated- it EXPOSES it. Yes, it's between satire and a documentary. But that's why it's brilliant. Yes, he did have something political to say, and no he wasn't totally clear on it. It was the 90's- Nobody was! (Especially not straight men when it came to LGBT+ and women's issues.) But Smith really WAS onto something that most straight men weren't! And he earnestly shared what he learned with the rest of them. They needed to know. And lord knows they would only listen to it coming from another cis het man! 🙄 So I honestly am grateful to Kevin Smith for explaining it to them. It's pretty impressive that he was able to pull it all together and make an important statement film while he was still literally learning and growing himself, as they were making the movie. Back when it first came out, I watched the movie with my Ex bf and his best friend- and I saw some realizations sink into their thick, male privileged skulls, irt.
It’s way easier said than done but viewing it critically as an absurdist piece shines a light on a lot of the philosophy I feel is relatable throughout the movie. Watching as a queer person is a little more difficult as our experiences are used kind of metaphorically. I feel like his use of the recurring characters from dogma (I forget their names while I’m typing this) and the reference to godot in the beginning kind of hints to it being totally absurdist. The 3some *not* happening kind of shifts everything back into reality. It reminds me of Beckett’s “City of Angels”. Great vid as always evasive ❤
I’ve always been obsessed with this movie based on how much I loved the first half and hated the second. It’s such an interesting film that so clearly depicts the mindset of the writer despite seemingly trying to say something different? Also Banky is OBVIOUSLY in love with Holden. I guess Holden is a bisexual magnet, big he/they vibes
I'm not going to invalidate anybody's feelings on watching the film, but I honestly don't see how you can watch it and come to the conclusion that it endorses *anything* that Holden does or says. He's quite clearly shown to be in the wrong about everything except the final comic-book apology. As for the stuff Banky says, I really find it hard to understand how someone could watch the entire film and think that the intended message is that lesbians just need some deep dicking. As for Alyssa herself, I think that's a more complicated question, but I don't think she's an unrealistic character. Because characters are often used as mechanisms for delivering exposition, it's easy to take everything they say at face value. But we know we can't take what Banky says at face value because throughout the film he's aggressively homophobic, but that is because he himself is gay and can't face up to that. Biphobia was a big thing in the 90s. There are plenty of bi people who will tell you about being shunned or dismissed, even by LGTQ people, back in that era. So you have someone like Alyssa who was sexually experimental when she was young and who then moved from a small town to a big city. She finds the local gay scene and encounters exactly that biphobia (as we see later in the film from her gay friends). So she just says that she's a lesbian because it's easier and doesn't make her a target. Perhaps she's even much more attracted to women than she is men, so it's easy to just not be with guys. Again - I've heard from bi people who were part of the scene at that time who have said that they did exactly that. It's perhaps notable that in the infamous scene in the rain she only briefly mentions being gay as an objection to being with Holden and spends more time talking about how it would turn her life upside-down. It's not her saying "I'm not attracted to you, and I never could be attracted to you", it's her saying "if I'm with you I'll probably lose all my friends". Which it's implied she does. I think perhaps the biggest question is - why is she actually attracted to the immature manchild Holden? *That*, I think, is the bit that's the male fantasy. It's the "she'll be attracted to the completely average dude because it's written from a man's POV" thing that's still pervasive to this day. Maybe if he actually wrote a good comic and she really liked it there could be a "this reveals something of his inner self" thing, but IIRC she's quite dismissive of it and he himself describes it as "dick & fart jokes". I mean, sure, she fucked immature people in high school, but they had the excuse of being actually immature, she was experimenting, and she didn't actually fall in love with them (although she may have thought she had with some). So why him? God only knows.
Some of those reads came from bad faith and not knowing Smith’s story, and that’s on me for not filling them all in because I hadn’t done the research at that point. For me personally the only parts I thought were badly mishandled were the scene in the rain and the ending where Holden makes that comic and Alyssa isn’t mad at him about it. I completely agree with you on the rest of what you’ve said here.
@@kat8559 and personally I think it's actually kind of a flaw with a lot of modern media criticism (or actually just people making any kind of statement). in which the "who" did is seemingly often considered to be more important than the "what".
Frankly, I think [parts] of Gen X come off very well here. We were exploring, asking, even daring. A lot of progress comes from exposing thought and action and forcing it to be examined. Kevin Smith and company deserve at least recognition for cutting through the woods even if they turned out to be wrong about a lot of stuff. I don’t mind having my generation judged here; I think we come off better than our predecessors.
It's so entertaining to watch people in their early 20s act like (and genuinely believe) they have the entire human experience figured out. No judgement, it's a rite of passage. Not to mention, missing the reality of what the decades before them might have actually been like, and that's perfectly acceptable given they weren't even born. The lack of an attempt to understand, have compassion, or acknowledge their own blindspot is literal ignorance. I would love to see the same group react to this very video in 25 years to analyze how their own views have evolved.
@@itmeurdadHey, no judgement, but did you finish the video? I think they gave it a fair shot. At least one of them isn't in their early 20s and not only that, but also was alive when this movie came out and watched it. She even commented on the social climate of then a few times. I don't know where you think that they failed to try to understand. Anyone could say that you failed to understand them and their perspective.
Those weren't the good old days... and considering how superior Gen X act toward millennials and Gen z I'm cool that this flawed movie reflects your generation's flaws
Thank you so much for this! As a young queer teen I loved this movie too and repeatedly watched it almost as much as the trans guy who made the documentary, but when I remember it nowadays I just cringe because the idea of "converting" a lesbian is so horiffic. I've never watched it as an adult. I feel like as an old person I need to explain that Jason Lee's character was a more extreme version of a romcom archetype of a best friend who is a dick and makes the hero look better by comparison. The problem is that in the 90s being homophobic was so normalised that his personality was seen as going just a bit too far, and of course was also meant to be seen as a closeted gay guy overcompensating. I think the fact that he is seen as an unambiguously terrible bigot instead of a funny dickhead by young audiences today shows how far we've come as a society. I'm so glad that language and behaviour isn't seen as normal anymore. Also, I had no idea that the actress was actually dating Kevin Smith! That backstory explains a lot of the heroes of his films in the 90s being pretentious and weirdly uptight and conservative about sex, I guess he was writing himself as the hero. He is definitely not a hero and his recent output is pure trash but I still love Mallrats
The references to Degrassi are because Kevin Smith is a big Degrassi fan! In 2005, he guest starred on 'Degrassi The Next Generation' with Jason Mewes! I actually have an autograph from Jason signed "Degggrassiii! Rules!!! As does Canada"
Glad you brought up Chasing Chasing Amy! I met Sav years ago at a festival where he told me he was gearing up to do that doc and I was definitely confused by his point of view initially lol. After seeing it at another festival last year, it definitely all made sense. It’s very well put together and also, as mentioned, doesn’t shy away from some of the negative aspects. Definitely recommend it to anyone interested once it’s available!
Chasing Amy is problematic but damn if it’s not the best cultural touchstone for queerness and male fragility Thank you evasive now I have to track down Chasing Chasing Amy
Labels, that's my favorite aspect of this movie. The whole, you have to pronounce what you are to be accepted by whoever is dumb, plain and simple. It was then, it is now, and it always will be. That's my takeaway from Chasing Amy. It's a good movie but your mileage may vary.
For all the complaints about the men in this movie, and their distorted perspectives, there isn't any comment about Joey Lauren Adams and her characters perspective. If the reason for that is because you agree with the things she says, that ALSO came from Kevin Smith. He wrote that. So if Kevin Smith is a wrong headed, misogynist, then Alyssa is somehow a bad character, who is wrong about how to feel or express herself.
Another reason this movie is so complicated to talk about, Smith did some things very wrong and some things very right. I don’t think he’s misogynistic at all I think him and his movies and characters are just very much a product of their time
@@ephemera... I think you mised the point of my post. The only reason to have characters like Jay or Banky is to put the wrong words in their mouth to be able to have your main character say the right thing.
Ive always found Kevin Smith to be a well-meaning airhead about a lot of stuff. His heart is in the right place a lot of the time even if his brain cant keep up with it. I think even if the majority of this movie aged like milk (despite it arguably not being that fresh to begin with) i trust that he truly was approaching this from a good place.
It really feels like, as much as it also tries to have commentary, the other 99% of the film is just pretext to have Silent Bob's titular monologue. And to be fair, I think that monologue is genuinely profound at points, and has a lot of insightful things for men dealing with similar insecurities even today. But as a result, a lot of the inclusion of queer characters and identities ends up collateral damage on his way to that analysis of sexual insecurity.
I've seen Chasing Chasing Amy. It's important to point out that that documentary made it very clear that Kevin Smith is very much an ally and nobody involved in the movie had any ill intentions. He was actually the first person Sav came out as trans to, and was very supportive.
Whenever I hear the criticism that this film is adhering to the male fantasy of "converting" a lesbian, I can't help but feel thats a little unfair and kind of surface level. Yes, she does say throughout the movie that she is a lesbian but only because she has been burned by men so much she has decided she will only pursue women. Technically speaking she is still physically attracted to men, making her bisexual. Wether or not labeling herself as something she really isnt is morally or logically a smart move is up to interpretation, but you have to remember this was the 90s and it was a lot different for the bisexual crowd of then, being "inbetween" so to speak was difficult back then. At the end of the day, i just feel we should stop looking at this film as a "man trying to change a lesbian" movie, and more of a bisexuals trying to figure themselves out kinda movie.
I am a lesbian and I watch this movie when it came out, i watch it now and i think the same, it´s a good movie, it´s funny, it´s romantic, it´s intelligent, leaves the guys as assholes and we can see how sometimes some guys are in thit closeted misoginy. I didn´t like the girl turns straight or bisexual or ends up with him, but sexuality is fluid and still think is a good representation for the time, is still funny, and shows us that sexuality can be fluid. But why can´t it be a about a lesbian with a lesbian group her whole life that suddenly realizes that she is bi. We´ve seen a straight girl or guy realizing they are gay many, many times. I approve this movie.
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Please stop abusing every member of lgbtq+ community by subjecting them to these terrible movies its lowkey homophobic..
*I think that Pizza was just pretending to be bisexual.* No anchovies.
Imagine, you put an amount of lesbians that isnt zero in a room and let thrm discuss how a 30 year old movie written in the mindset of the time was problematic.
"Uh, have you ever been nive to a MAN, uh, all men". What a shallow dumn PoS.
"archie and jughead were lovers" "shut the FUCK up" is the most realistic conversation i've heard in a movie
Naw cause I didn't fully watch the Riverdale TV series but I know at the end it was like they all end up being together in like one big relationship and they showed Betty and Veronica together but for some reason they thought that Archie and Jughead were a little too much? C'mon now🤦.
@@Des17Sgiven that jughead is one of like 3 asexual characters in comics I’m so glad they didn’t
@@Dinobilly425 If they had Jughead discover at the end that he was asexual on the show that would have been fine. Dosen't make sense for everything that happened but fine if they wanted to be closer to the comics. However I'm just saying that they used the "hot straight not so straight gal plas with each other" thing for those two but felt weird about doing the same with the two male best friends. Jughead was still sleeping with Veronica and Betty. I just thought if it was going that route go all the way. They were making it so obvious that Veronica and Betty were just a teaser for the straight male eyes in my opinion.
Jughead doesn't love men, women, nonbinary, nothing. Not unless you're a burger. If you identify as a burger, you may have a shot with him, but he EXCLUSIVELY eats out so... make of that what you will. I can already smell the grease coming from a burg/er pronoun-ed Jughead fic of some sort... and someone out there has probably written it.
ThYa one of the best parts about Kevin Smith's writing, it sounds like real conversations
Kevin Smith admitted later in his career that *Chasing Amy* would've been better if it was told from a lesbian writer
I would actually love to see a remake of this movie written by queer writers 'cause this movie does have a lot of queer themes and I'd like to see them explored from a queer perspective rather than a straight person's perspective of queer people.
I have a good amount of respect for him
Men can never stop apologizing for still being wrong when they thought they were finally right.
@@2nd3rd1stthis makes it seem like men can't win.
@@daruddockthey cant
the bar is so low that i almost like the movie because they don't end up together
Truly - I had the thought, “At least they don’t end up together, that’s good!”
I wish holden and spanky ended up together.
I think you can tell when it's a movie about a straight guy who's trying to get it? like at least he's trying I guess
I love this movie so much. It's the reason why I came out
Would instantly make the movine better imo@@johnindigo5477
Didn't tell us which women are which sexuality, so in my head they are both schrodinger's lesbian and schrodinger's bisexual until further notice
Schrödinger׳s sapphic
@@kidlewinter5027yess came to say that
brilliant
The bisexuals were the ones that weren't sitting normally.
plot twist, none of them are sapphic, they're all Kevin Smith
intently waiting for "incels react to scott pilgrim vs the world"
"Depressed Eggy 'Cis Boys' React to End of Evangelion", please.
There's a whole anime that needs viewing before it. It'd be like showing bisexual west coast winter girls Twin Peaks: Fire Walk With Me without the entire show before it@@ConvincingPeople
Specifically the incels in denial about being incels. I'm talking total white knights who then call women b*tches when their creepy worship doesn't get them laid.
@@ConvincingPeople I think I need whichever movie is best for Disaster Bisexuals
@@modvavet idk cabaret maybe?
Honestly, as a bisexual woman I understand why Alyssa identified as a lesbian. Like, if my young experiences with men had been filled with public humiliation and degradation, as was seen with Alyssa’s high school nickname put into the yearbook, I too would just say “I’m a lesbian” and never date men again. The label “lesbian” would give her social cover, in that men would know to give up on her and that fewer people would peek into her sexual history. Why identify as “bisexual”, which in 1997 was not taken seriously anyway, and even allow men to consider the idea that they could date you? And honestly, the movie proved Alyssa was right! Holden, the first man she had dated in years, treated her terribly and reacted extraordinarily horrible to learning about her history. Basically, I think it’s fine that Alyssa chose to identify as she did.
I like that Evasive noted that people seeing it for the first time now have a different perspective on this than people who saw it and liked it when it was released. It was a very different world then in terms of both how society at large thought of gay & lesbian people and how gay and lesbian people thought of bisexuals. That contexts makes the experience of watching the movie at that time more nuanced than many people realize.
The idea that men would give up on trying to pursue lesbians after finding out they're a lesbian is patently false. Go to a gay bar with a big lesbian population and I guarantee you a not insignificant portion of the lesbians there hold deep trauma about a man who thought he could "fix her" with his maleness.
tbf, I watched this for the first time shortly after it came out, and was already identifying as bisexual back then, and I *always* read Alyssa as bi, but identifying as lesbian for convenience (for lack of a better term). The answer she gave about "not limiting herself" to one gender was particularly relatable to me, and doesn't make sense as an origin story if by doing so, she was actually still limiting herself to only one gender. It feels like she started spending more time in queer circles, and that meant surrounding herself with lesbians, and that meant she was dating other women, and lesbian seemed to make sense. I imagine if the movie were made today she'd ID as queer or fluid.
Obviously, the lesbian identity was important to her, as she had the whole speech about being "fucking gay, that's who I am." It was her identity and her community, but based on the actual text of the film, I don't think it ever seemed like an accurate representation of her innate attraction
I'm addition, the lesbian and bi communities used to be a lot more intwined before the biphobes came in and put a wedge between lesbians and bisexuals in what had been a mixed community
"men would know to give up on her" baby i have news for you about men when it comes to lesbians, the idea that men have ever historically respected lesbian's lack of attraction to them is wild
So I think the point is missed a little bit. As a bisexual woman a bit older than you folks, being bisexual in the 90s and early 2000s really really sucked. We were basically cut out of both straight and lgbtq+ society when we were outed. We were either "in a phase" or "picking sides".
You all picked up and some points, like Bens character is supposed to be an idiot and jumps to wrong conclusions, but kind of missed others. Like the fact that Alyssa was quite literally ousted by her lesbian friends when it turned out she might be more bisexual, which actually happened a lot even when I was a teen in the early 2000s to men and women.
Kevin Smith wasn't trying to rewrite the romcom or claim to crack the code on "fixing lesbians" but sharing a story of his past/airing a sin he made and hope people learn from it. Weinstein house made the advertising into "how to hook a lesbian".
Also Banky, classic example of someone in the mid genX age group in the closet struggling with their sexuality. He was very clearly in love with Holden. I clocked that when I was 11 or 12
Yeah, the subtext with Banky here, even ignoring Smith's later films entirely, is pretty pronounced and surprisingly layered. There's a very specific type of heteronormative bravado that certain closeted male-presenting people often lean into when they're trying to repress more complicated feelings about their sexuality or gender which I think he exemplifies immaculately. But despite this, the whole threesome incident demonstrates that he's a little more self-aware than he lets on, and certainly more so than Holden. Which is a low bar, but still. :P
@@ConvincingPeopleas a gay teen I liked the movie because it shows the messy parts of being closeted.
Not the cut and dry coming out early type stories.
Yep. I came out as bi in the 90s. I joined the campus Gay And Lesbian Alliance. No B or T in the name, although the group seemed open enough.
Then I started dating a guy and appearing like a straight woman. I wanted to remain in the queer community but I felt increasingly awkward. No one directly said I didn’t belong. I’d just get these confused looks, like, “why are you here?”
I’m glad there’s more bi awareness now.
this was always my reading of the film. Alyssa never gets to fully own her sexuality because no one allows her to, not just Holden. it isn't a perfect movie but it meant a lot to me back then.
Yeah, I've just written a comment saying much the same thing. As soon as the commentators all started saying they were born in the 90s or 00s I thought they were definitely going to come to the conclusion that Alyssa really was a lesbian who got won over by a guy, rather than that she was always bisexual but was saying she was a lesbian because it was easier and safer to do so, which is the reading that I think makes the most sense given the time and the place. And, you know, the fact that Alyssa doesn't ever indicate that she didn't enjoy the sex with men and boys she had in high school or wasn't attracted to the people she was having sex with.
As I said in my other comment, there's a tendency to take what characters in films say at face value because dialogue is how filmmakers convey information to the audience. But we know we can't take what Banky says at face value, so why should we take Alyssa at face value when she says she's a lesbian?
I mean, it's because usually when a character says something like "I'm a lesbian" it's a writer trying to tell the audience that that character is a lesbian. But people are more complicated than that and often do put themselves in boxes in which they don't really belong because it's a way to protect themselves. You just have to come to the conclusion that the characters are slightly more complex than just the first thing they say.
For some reason i imagine Evasive on the street looking for queer people and being like "hey do you wanna react to a shitty movie while eating good food?"
Irrc Evasive mentioned that the main casts of these vids are usually searched from queer open mic nights(this might be incorrect). Which is just a funny to imagine leaving a set and someone saying “you’re funny want to watch the bad stonewall movie?”
You’re right! I met everyone at open mics, but to clarify I was there because I was performing too 💖
This would work on me. This is how I would get killed.
Honestly? If someone randomly ran up to me and asked me to do an impromptu commentary on a movie I've never seen with a bunch of other queer people I'd take them up on that.
I am starved for social situations, someone please actually make me this offer.
@@EvasiveOneoh that’s cool, I think your videos are funny but I didn’t realize you actually did comedy.
2:20: "Don't worry, Lesbians! The premise of my film may *seem* homophobic, but it actually has *nothing* to do with you! It's all about *men* and our insecurities!"
Lesbians: ...... Yeah, we know.
Right, but for a straight guy to know...and then ADMIT IT? Huuuuuuuuuuuuuge progress.
I know. It sucks.
i know right
As we all know, the bar is in hell.
@@Theomiteto know and admit that he treated his gf badly, and then make a movie about it rather than going to therapy! A true progressive.
@@AmyAberrant People cope with their anxieties in different ways. What works for you doesn't necessarily works for someone else. I give Kevin a lot of credit for not hurting people close to him while making his work.
wait oh no the scene where the friend group gets into a long stupid argument about whether or not fictional characters are gay is literally me and my friends he just like me fr
Yup , i remember them conversations
I still remember my gay friend telling us that Bobby Drake/Iceman was bisexual and come to find out he was for years
Yeah that was surprisingly realistic
And there were roommates
I honestly think that's the biggest part of why Kevin Smith has that fanbase.
I had to explain the Archie references to my film buff brother who didn't read comics.
As problematic as some parts of this film are. I do like the way it explores men being insecure about women, their sexuality and the idea of appearing to not be masculine. Especially with how a lot of young men are right now, it’s definitely held up in some areas, and completely aged horribly in others 😂
Totally agree - the unevenness is palpable.
It's pretty obvious that Alyssa is the victim. She undergoes tremendous pain and heartbreak because she takes a chance on a guy who CLEARLY is in over his head and not knowing how to face his own bullshit. AND she had reservations about it beforehand. I've never watched this film and took away that it was about the men as much as it was what this poor woman goes through because of them.
How do you feel about the gay male character leaning into homophobia and misogyny?
I liked it because it's something a lot of gay teens might lean into to appear more masculine and shows how homophobia is directly related to gender roles.
But it might of been incidental.
@@johnindigo5477 That may have been incidental. They're both from New Jersey which is very Catholic, very Italian and Irish heritage so the homophobia and male posturing would be massive. The film plays Banky as a guy who is so closeted he may not even know he's gay, he may think his homoerotic inclinations are intrusive thoughts or signs of some type of weakness caused from a lack of sex with women.
Also, if this is '97, then these guys were born in the early 70s, so the use of homophobic slurs would have been boilerplate; you would say "fag" and "retarded" the same way you'd say "thing" or "stuff."
it's almost a great movie. ALMOST.
I'll give Kevin this about this movie...he acknowledged the hypocrisy with how society views homosexual men ,especially black men(and that he had to hide it and pretend to be a stereotypical straight pro black overly masculine man to even get a deal in the comic genre) and he didn't use it as a joke or prop like so many films have before , then , and sadly to this day still use
I liked it as a gay teen because it wasn't... sanitized. It wasn't a perfect breakdown of coming out and all the tropes. It was chaotic, cringy, and fun. Lots of twist
Realistic gay characters that get to be imperfect and grow.
Yes! Imperfect characters.
A stigma that exists in every community including black and brown communities
It’s always been eminently clear that Smith is a well-meaning dude at heart and it gets him a lot of grace when looking at his films.
I think about the line "I'm a minority in a minority of the minority, and nobody's supportin' my ass" a lot.
*_“The B in LGBTQ stands for Ben Affleck, actually”_* ~ Kevin Smith, presumably while writing this movie
Ben Affleck being the first (he/they) actually made me choke on my breakfast. My god.
Between Gigli, his first directorial short film, and this, there's no one I trust more to teach me about lesbians than Ben Affleck.
"If I had a nickel for every film about Ben Affleck falling in love with a lesbian, I'd have two nickels. Which isn't much but it's weird it happened twice"
It's Ben Affleck time...gobble gobble!
@MH90 3 nickels, one of his first short films is about killing his wife after he found out she was a lesbian
I had a dude who I rejected because I'm not really into dudes (he's still a friend) refer to my situation as "Chasing Amy." That's how I ended up watching it... and I was mortified.
Not because it's a bad movie. The film was clear that Alyssa was bi and felt ostracized in the Queer community because of bisexual erasure and the kind of feminism that was popular at the time. I was mortified by what I think he was trying to say *about me* at the time, but I didn't have access to most TV and movies when I was growing up. I still haven't confronted him about it.
Oh NO, that's reeeaaallly awful :/ sorry your first experience with the movie was tainted like that
@@fancyorangemittens If you ever ask him, I beg for an update. I Need to know what the author meant by this.
@@fancyorangemittens yeah I love the movie, but thats gross. Its like how you can enjoy Scott Pilgrim, but if a guy starts calling you his Ramona Flowers, run.
Oh wow that was a dick move. Chasing Amy is actually my favourite movie ever. I know it has issues, even back when it came out it sparked debate in the lgbtq community, and is worse off viewed with a modern lense. But I love that it's a passion project where the filmmaker puts their own sins on trial. It feels like it has something ernest and vulnerable to say so it's always hit me real hard in the countless times I've seen it. And my big takeaway from it had been to examine my insecurities, where they come from, are they helpful to me, how do they affect others and how to let go off them. It's a little saddening to see someone use this film to essentially almost validate and celebrate their insecurities, putting them on the other person. But I guess it's also interesting to see that not everyone got the same from the film as me. For me though I know that this movie massively influenced who I am today and I'm a more open minded and understanding person for it.
In a weird way, I respect that this film is by and large a guy reckoning with his own unprocessed misogynistic baggage and putting himself on blast in a really uncompromising way, and there is something to be said for a fairly mainstream movie in the '90s calling out biphobia from monosexual queer people in the scene with Alyssa's lesbian friends, but I feel like this film *seriously* could've used a ground-up rewrite by someone like, say, Guinevere Turner, if only to refine and add some depth to the film's more caustic and messy aspects.
I have to say plenty of lesbians I knew hated Guenevere Turners work.
I guess so little is made for us, we expect all artists to appeal to all of us, which never happens in the straight world.
Movies are always controversial.
@@ephemera... For sure, queer people aren't a monolith. I'm just saying, she was right there and probably could have helped matters significantly.
What saves this movie in a way is that Holden is clearly being shown as the asshole in this movie.
Yes and no. And I'd argue it's a good thing it's +not+ that clear-cut.
There is truly not enough credit given to this movie that’s a QUARTER OF A CENTURY old, written by a straight man about toxic masculinity and queerness when these topics wouldn’t even hit mainstream the way we know now for at least another decade. How quickly we forget how far we’ve come. It’s shocking how much of this movie holds up well tbh
Yes I think it holds up well. But then I am gen X so I don't have the perspective of younger people.
They haven't had the same experience and take for granted ideas that we had to fight so hard for.
It's weird to hear people say parts have aged badly, but not be quite sure which parts are being referred to.
(To be clear there are parts of the film I find repugnant, but no one speaks about these directly.)
Fr fr yeah it has problems but I actually appreciate this film. Holden is immature and insecure, he’s a dumb dumb and just because he’s the protagonist doesn’t mean his behavior is endorsed. And while not explicitly stated, it’s clear to me that Alyssa is a bisexual woman with trauma related to men. And it was safer for her to say she was a lesbian, because then at least she had a place to belong.
I don’t hate this film at all, i think Smith did a fair job on this, and he clearly has thought about and learned from feedback over time.
There were people during this time who did NOT agree with this movie. We need to raise the bar for the past.
I think people tend to miss that you can write a character as unlikable. Youre not supposed to sympathize with the protagonist. Its a critical look at everything he did wrong. But people tend to think just because the story is told from their perspective, that it automatically shows endorsement from the writer.
I agree on this actually, I think part of that is the viewers not having the full story on Kevin Smith here, which is on me tbh because I didn’t do my research before the showing
100% this :)
These dummies were cheering for Alyssa's lines and booing Holden's as though they weren't written by the same person, that kind of nuanced thinking is beyond them (or being more charitable, beyond the scope of this as a "fun" exercise)
@@lithium yeah it's almost like stories should hold up on their own terms and not just when you know the fucking kevin smith lore! I liked the movie too but acting like it's the viewers fault for not engaging with a movie thats got some pretty ugly shit to say about gay people is some basic bitch media literacy like damn dude haven't you ever heard the phrase the road to hell is paved with good intentions?
@@fauxrowsdower7610 Speaking of media literacy, it's a movie about a guy who's an idiot, and every other character in the movie tells him he's an idiot, and the actual writer of the movie appears in the movie telling him he's an idiot. Then the protagonist realizes he is indeed an idiot. And some people watch this movie and their conclusion is that the filmmaker's beliefs are the same as the character.
Banky's behaviour makes a lot more sense once you realise that he is deeply in love with Holden and a large amount of antipathy to Alyssa is due to jealousy.
It’s so obvious it’s basically text
Smith went on a college tour answering fans questions and its available as a film of some sort. In it a lesbian questioned him about having that joke in the movie and how it was offensive to propagate that and he pointed out that was the point, it was made by a closeted gay man who was a jealous misogynist who was in love with his best friend.
He did say everyone needs a dick in em
@@ashleighcalvert8937 i picked up on with "everyone needs dick" comment
As an independent lesbian filmmaker, can I just say how *grateful* I am that you pointed out an upcoming independent documentary by another queer artist that's STILL showing at festivals? IK this sounds kind of "aah pretentious art school student" of me but I genuinely appreciate you mentioning it. There are so many incredible independent films that don't get seen by the public because they're just unaware of their existence. I think it's super cool that your using your platform to elevate other lgbt productions, so thank you for that :) It made my night and gave me something to keep my eye out for.
EDIT: And local comedians!!! Ahh :D
if I’m going to have a platform on here the least I can do is promote other artists I like too 💖
Chasing Amy definitely falls into that category of being great as a time capsule for the social politics of queerness, from a straight perspective, at the time. Doesn't age well in ways, but it provides interesting context for the era.
It also shows that, even if Kevin Smith understands gay people enough to write them well (shoutout Hooper), at the end of the day this film still struggles to leave the bounds of its very straight perspective. Would've loved to see what it would've looked like with a lesbian at the writing table.
Honestly, I don't think the idea that Alyssa “rethinking” her sexuality upon getting to know Holden is that bad. That type of complex queerness isn't unrealistic. And with the angle this movie takes on male jealousy and entitlement to women sex lives, including the fact that Alyssa had already explored her sexuality before hand, I don't think it falls too bad into the “male fantasy of turning a lesbian”. I was genuinely surprised that she ended up with a women in the end and Holden faced the consequences for being a misogynistic prick.
I agree with you that I would have loved to see this movie with a bigger sapphic influence. I think it's biggest problem is just how much it focuses on the men (rather than the women) and how it definitely seems like it wants its audience to have at least a little sympathy for them, even if we're ultimately supposed to disagree with their actions. Other than that, I would have loved to see a bit more of discussion around sexuality and queerness within the community, not just the straight view of it.
How about a bisexual at the writing table??????
Proves that Gen X isn't that great and the good old days don't exist
@@KernelHughesIt isn't that gen x is that great, just better than what came before it in many ways. I'm grateful I was a queer teenager in a small town in the 90's and not the 70's or 80's.
The music was great, tho.
@@KernelHughes As a Gen X'er, it was better than generations before, as have the generations that have come after Gen X. That was the whole idea of Queer rights from the beginning. To make things better for the generations ahead of us. I'm happy that I could help with opening straight people's eyes of how Queer people are not scary, sex crazed, groomers and dangerous to society. But just people who want to be treated with respect.
Chasing Amy is such a weird film to go back to because on the one hand, it's aged a lot better than folk give it credit, but on the other hand it's aged exactly as badly as you'd expect.
Chasing Amy is how my mother got her realisation she is bisexual
I love Kevin Smith so damn much
Like mother like damn son.
good for y'all!
I'm a straight man, and I absolutely adored this movie not because of the male fantasy but because of what it taught. That if someone is into me today, I don't have to live up to their past, and while their past makes up apart of who they are now, the past is in the past and it's not my place to judge them.
It’s also the best representation of bringing to light the dangers and risks of having a threesome with the girl being in the middle between two male friends. JLA's dialogue hits it on the head, and says what everyone is thinking but never says.
As a straight male, it did bother me how disgusted most were reacting when Alyssa chose to embrace and kiss Holden.
I think it’s fair to say that if straight men responded in this way to say, gay men, it would come off as less than favorable. Some might use the word “homophobic.” Am I missing something, or is there perhaps an unspoken double standard? It came off as a bit of a personal distaste for men. Not all of us are boundary pushing chauvinists. If I developed a crush on a woman that preferred the company of other women, I would keep it to myself. It’s my problem. How I feel is not someone else’s problem. I’ll take the hit and move on.
The clue is in the names of the characters: Holden and Banky. Holden Caulfield is the protagonist and narrator of the novel Catcher in the Rye. Ed Banky is the name of another character in the novel. The novel also contains themes of jealousy and repressed homosexuality. But the whole point of the novel is that Holden is an unreliable narrator. He tells stories about how everyone else is wrong, but we the reader can read through the lines and see that he is petty, jealous, and is to blame for his own problems.
I had no idea they were named after the characters in Catcher in the Rye I can’t believe I missed that in my research
Smith had his heart in the right place, especially for the year it came out, but his head wasn't in the same place as his heart
you should make trans women react to dr jekyll and miss hyde 1995
Or Doctor Jekyll from last year
It’s on my list!
Omg I completely forgot that movie existed until just now. Sean Young really put in the work, huh?
oh my god i cannot wait to see a bunch of trans women react to (SPOILERS)
seeing estrogen be the missing ingredient of the genetic code for evil
@@angrynerdgirl "AVC: I have to ask, at least partly because you didn’t mention her name at all: How was Sean Young to work with?
Tim Daly: Uh… [Gestures to the recorder.] Turn that off, and I’ll tell you."
The David Schwimmer and John Stewart version of Chasing Amy is a true loss to society
I know they're ALL bad but I love every movie Jon Stewart is in
and Drew Barrymore? The person who has managed to make Adam Sandler look like a charming romcom lead??? I'm desperate for that version of this movie.
No. It really isn't.
@@vitalepittsbig daddy still makes me weep to this day. And wow Joey Lauren Adam’s is in that one too!
@@7Link7Your weekend pass is revoked
In the context of the 90s, there really was a lot of stigma against bisexuality as for wishy-washy people who wouldn't commit. Alyssa makes sense to me as someone who identified as a lesbian because she liked women & there was a lesbian community to be had and the social space where it was OK to be bi was only half there. I was in high school when this came out & in theater & several of the girls I knew really identified with Alyssa's struggle after feeling unwelcome in lesbian social meet-ups.
For me I always liked this movie because it challenged me to be a more sympathetic partner. By the end of the movie I always hated Afleck's character because he threw away a relationship due to his ego and prejudice. It made me reflect on how I viewed my relationships in the past and I realized that I was judgemental of one of my partners and had to confront my own insecurities. I'm a straight male so I can't comment on the other aspects of the movie though
Exactly! That’s a big part of what makes this movie so complicated, it did some things very wrong and some things very right
I love Kevin Smith as a genuine dude who grows, who does what he loves, who's just a very open and vulnerable dude... he's a good guy. I think he looked back and realized the issues in his old flicks and reflects earnestly. And plus I think he's just a big FAN of stuff and he's really enthusiastic about things he's doing. I like that sort of genuine enthusiasm from a public figure and creative. He doesn't seem elusive or snooty or anything. He's very outspoken and self-deprecating, and sweet-seeming guy just trying to do the right thing and he comes across as just a very "genuine" person. I see real heart in him that's so rare. People are immature and what matters is that people can change, can reflect, etc.
I don’t think there’s ever gonna be a firm feeling on this movie because of how rawly human it is. There’s a disturbing amount of reality beneath the layer of romcom, and while it’s clearly written for the monologue about insecurity, the experiences it’s commenting on don’t feel any faker for it. It all comes across as people being people with all the stupidity and pain and dissatisfaction that comes with living.
Ends up feeling like trying to turn a person’s shortcomings into morality tales. Some people get motivated, some people judge it, everyone ends up uncomfortable acknowledging the personhood at the center of it all. If there’s anything Kevin Smith accomplished with this, it’s managing to make people sit through a close examination of a straight man’s emotions without having to rely on self-pity to carry it all.
As a lifetime bisexual who watched this movie as a young adult when it first came out and still doesn't know how to feel about it, I am thrilled to to welcome new viewers to my club. :) I hate so much of it. I love so many of Amy's reactions. And of course, Kevin Smith wrote those. But he wrote the rest of it too.
i am SO SORRY but comics jughead is canonically aro/ace and i will NOT stand for any other speculation on his sexuality, be it through a straight or gay lens /: that being said, i am willing to hear peoples' arguments on archie's character
Does anyone else think that Jughead could be on the autistic spectrum.
I still refer back to some of his takes on life.
I had so much fun editing this 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🥳
🔥🔥
🫡💖
YOU ARE A FANTASTIC EDITOR 😗💖
I had so much fun watching! Thank you so much!
Fantastic editing, thank you!
Evasive finally feeding her primary audience (lesbians)
me and my butch in unison said "yeah" after reading this
If you didn’t chase down your guests this time I will be extremely disappointed
uh ackshually let me refer you to 9:17 where you can clearly see there's no Amys in sight
@juanjuri6127 TBF, Amelia can be (and often is) shortened to Amy
@@juanjuri6127 I was referring to that fact that they all, in some way, like and can date girls
as a lesbian I mainly know Kevin Smith from when he helped Paige on Degrassi come out as bisexual
It's a movie that gets a lot wrong, but also doesn't exactly poise Holden as "good" person. He's intentionally flawed and his viewpoints follow suit. I think it never glorifies him and rather shows him as a stubborn manchild that does some pretty severe emotional damage to Alyssa by the end and I do think that's all in the DNA of the movie. Jay & Silent Bob Reboot has a sort of cute bow on this where they reconcile and become creative partners, something that shows their connection went deeper than sex...probably the only good thing in that movie. Kevin deserves some props for at least taking that arrested development angst he showed off in Clerks and Mallrats and try to say SOMETHING with it rather than just keep pumping out the same stories of mid-20s aimlessness. I wholeheartedly agreed that it's an uneven movie, but there's some good stuff there.
As someone with a chosen family and living the pan experience, these group commentaries are always comforting and a breath of fresh air for me. This episode was BRILLIANTLY GLORIOUS.
Men would rather make a movie about male sexual insecurity with $250,000 than go to therapy
So? Who the hell are you to tell Kevin how to express his anxieties? Has he hurt anyone? No. Creativity is a form of therapy.
Yes, this way we can at least try to make some money off of our pain. Because capitalism ruins everything.
@@Madbandit77 good point but I dont see the reason why we cant have both at the same time
@@crystalic_heart That's not up to you ,let alone anyone to judge. Last year, Kevin has admitted being molested when he was a kid and he received some help. I'm glad he didn't hurt anyone underage.
@@Madbandit77 Im not judging and neither does the OP, the comment is just a joke. I agree that expressing yourself via creatig art is therepically great but it doesnt exclude going to therapy and unpacking your issues with a therapist. Also, does Kevin Smith being molested as a child matters here? Nothing he makes shouldnt be judged because of that? Or we are suppoused to applaud him or something for not commiting a crime?
As a queer woman i actually love this movie and think it's one of kevin smith's best works 🥲 like it's got so much to say about internalized homophobia (banky's whole existence), biphobia/bi erasure (alyssa and her friends), the entire tired concept of men thinking they can "turn" a lesbian and sexual fluidity in general. It's simultaneously dated and ahead of its time in themeing imo. I will say i never knew the details about the behind the scenes drama and really appreciated that context. Ty for the documentary rec!
I feel like most of Kevin Smith's films that he wrote come from a place of self reflection. Clerks has him reflecting on his misery and the fear of living a meaningless life. Dogma has him reflecting on his problems with religion. I see his films less as trying to tell a grand scheme message and more just a journey through his own feelings. So even if Kevin is objectively wrong, in which regarding certain aspects in this film, he is, its less about him being right about something and more about coming to terms with what his feelings on a subject actually are.
I have no idea if what i said even makes sense to me 😅
I agree with this exactly
That's true for all writers. All writers usually write about subjects their fascinated or insecure about. With that being said, this movie is still deeply flawed and problematic.
So what was Cop Out?
@@christopherb501 not written by Kevin
Okay but that just means his feelings are objectively wrong and need more actual unpacking than turning them into a movie script will allow
Not to give props to the bare minimum but good for Kevin smith for donating his residuals and more after the Weinstein scandal
you really didn't see many other people say a word about doing that kind of thing, despite soooo many people having the weinstein name on their films. a lot of things about Kevin's films may seem cringey from the modern perspective but he does genuinely seem like a good dude trying to learn and do the right thing.
@@cobaltsiren Kevin won't even try to take Dogma back because he knows it means having to give Harvey money or any type of power or feeling that he's still has some weight in the industry to pull and he'd rather not have his movie than do that.
@@mikochaos6310 God for him but that sucks since it seems to be kind of lost now. Not available to watch online and I'm sure the latest physical release is out of print.
LETS GO LESBIANS ITS OUR TIME. for traumatizing movie night. POG
lesbians REPRESENT !!!!
PGOGERS
WOOOO
As a terribly insecure straight teen in the 90s, I loved CHASING AMY for showing me how normal that was across the spectrum. And, for teaching me there even was a spectrum. The concept of being gay was something my friends and I used to denounce each other, or anyone, or anything, really, for not acting or being "manly". Lesbians were simply two or more women together in a porno magazine. And, I didn't even know that bisexuality existed. I loved comics, I feared women and I was a crass loud mouth. I was pre-revelation Banky. Naturally, I thought he was hilarious -- until, he wasn't...
CHASING AMY gave me a course correction. I learned being gay and lesbian were far more than my pathetic and insulting understanding. It showed me how NOT to think and act when feeling insecure around, or within a relationship, intimate or otherwise. In short, despite this film's inaccuracies and hindsight missteps, Kevin Smith helped me, and I have to believe, many other young straight men, to be a better person. Judge less, accept more. I'll always love CHASING AMY for that.
Enjoyed the video and appreciated the research put into it.
love stories like this, this is exactly why this movie is so complicated to talk about. It seems like for every one person who didn’t like this movie there’s another who was profoundly affected by it. thank you for commenting 💖
Token Straight Guy here, the Hartford Whalers were a NHL team back when Chasing Amy was filmed; they moved to North Carolina and are now the Hurricanes.
Just watched Chasing Amy a month ago. It was better than I expected, I really like how sympathetic Alyssa is and that the narrative actively criticizes Holden and Banky’s behavior. Hooper X deserves his own spin off.
That being said, it’s definitely has plenty of flaws and doesn’t hold up well outside of acknowledging the story portraying queer issues in a time when most media avoided the subject.
The Matt Damon cameo is so funny to me with the knowledge that he OPENLY ADMITTED that his daughter had to tell him to stop saying the f word (no clue if TH-cam would let me type that so better to be safe than sorry). And he revealed this only a few years ago lmao
Banky's homophobia is so bad since he's the break out character for a lot of cis white straight dude viewers. BUT, quoting "The other three are figments of your fucking imagination" line led to several deep conversations about sexuality and male fragility in my peer group growing up. This movie was a mostly positive entry point to larger conversations about the sexual spectrum among dudes that would never watch queer film otherwise.
It doesn't help that Jason Lee is incredibly entertaining. You just can't help but like him, even though you're not supposed to.
IDK, the things he says are kind of garbage but I feel like the subtext there makes him one of the more interesting characters in the movie (and honestly kind of nice to see for queer men in more masculine/nerdy spaces. How much of it is actual culturally instilled homophobia and how much of it is him not knowing how to deal with his own potential fluidity and overcompensating with homophobic bro language as a result? He unknowingly created his own little perfect comp-het narrative where he can be with Holden but never have to confront that his feelings are any deeper than a bro-y friendship but then it’s challenged by Alyssa (an openly queer person) who he feels is “stealing his man”. And then you get to the end of the movie where it’s finally spoken aloud and it can’t be put back. Things can never be like they were before between the two of them.
Reading all these comments from bi people and watching this video kinda made me think a lot of the issues with this film have to do with context. Like if it was primarily from Alyssa’s perspective and was clearly about a bi woman coming to terms with her sexuality after finding a place of acceptance only to have that safe space desecrated by the people she trusted, and was written by a bi-woman. I think the response would be very different. However I also think it’s a good thing this movie exists at all, because while it is clearly a film made for straight men, it’s something that I think a lot of us probably needed. It introduced queer ideas to people who otherwise would have NO context of this experience and would have their homophobic and biphobic views go unchallenged otherwise. It could’ve been made clearer that some of the things said are clearly just heteronormative fallacies. While it’s nice to imagine a better version of this film with a bi female writer and some of the rougher edges smoothed out, I think smiths heart was definitely in the right place, and confronting toxic heteronormative masculine beliefs through this lens is worthwhile, even if it’s imperfect.
I agree completely, that’s a big part of what makes this movie so complicated to talk about and why I’m not sure how to feel. Overall I think it was a net positive though especially reading these comments
As a lesbian of some age I enjoyed this. Also I saw Kevin Smith live sometime in the mid 2010s and the guy is just a chill funny dude who knows how to spin a good story.
My first boyfriend knew I was gay when he met me. He always said I was the ideal girl for him. His dream girl. Then he told me this was his favorite movie. I watched it and realized it he had been quoting it and that getting a lesbian as a straight man was a sort of fetish for him. I didn’t know how to feel about it. It was just weird. He made me feel bisexual. But I felt manipulated because some of the things he said to convince me were in this movie. To this day I’m very unsure if I’m actually bisexual or not. I definitely like women, but do I really like men? Idk. At the moment I’ve decided I’m asexual. I hate this movie. The acting was really good. The writing was good. But it is painful for me to even think about it because it will always represent the beginning of a very confusing relationship with my sexuality
It sounds like your boyfriend completely misunderstood the movie.
@@beansworth umm… yeah…
Current lesbian, i used go be hyper sexual with men. Im gonna be honest the”turning a lesbian” story line is questionable BUT as a lesbian healing from sexual trauma with men, Alyssa’s more personal scenes spoke to me. Especially the scene after the hockey fight. So im actually very interested in this movie now and wanna watch it.
he's not turning a lesbian tho, she's bisexual but identifies as a lesbian either to avoid discrimination from friends or she's just unaware of bisexuality, but it's definitely not about a man turning a lesbian.
Chasing Amy is genuinely part of a very 90s phenomenon in comedies, of being both very progressive and very regressive at the exact same time
I think one of the issues that existed in that time period and even today, bisexuality is usually erased, if you are a guy that has had sex or a relationship with another man, even if you did and will continue to do the same with woman, you were just labelled as gay. The "lesbian film guide" is written in a more modern and probably knowledgeble. Smith was writting and making this in the 90's.
You sure did chase them Amys... most "worth it" green screen ever.
Seriously though, seeing a new video from you pop up in my feed fills my little wizened heart with joy.
I think the whole aspect of her being secretly bisexual but feeling that she has to hide it and only date women would've worked perfectly if she was the protagonist, but is done such a huge disservice by being from his perspective.
I mean, this movie does have something to say but it is part of a snapshot of the 90's. We can look back at it from now and think, "whoa" that is pretty bad but compared to the rest, eh. It is a young man dealing with being shitty in relationships, bi-erasure, I think the other comic dude jason lee did have some form of affection for ben... and maybe even repressed feelings. It feels honest to the time period, it feels honest to how a lot of folks felt and acted then. It is also a film that if focused on comic book bros in their 20's.... and those guys are not the good guys, they aren't the adults, and they are wrong more often than not. The gay/lesbian/bi characters tended to be good people, the adults in the room. They weren't also magical characters that changed people, they were just people.
Which means that there's no such thing as "The good old days."
@@KernelHughesNo, there’s no good old days. I can feel nostalgia for the 80s & 90s, and still recognize all the problems. I can enjoy my memories, focus on the good stuff, and then acknowledge that’s what I’m doing. I had my fun back then - and I did lots of things that I deeply cringe at. Sometimes I think about the painful stuff and try to process it. Other times I might play “Girls Just Wanna Have Fun,” dance around, and forget all the sad/boring/awful stuff I went through.
obviously. @@KernelHughes
At the time, for me, this movie was a life line. I had such fucked up views about sexuality from growing up in the bible belt, that it really helped me begin my journey out of that mess. I definitely see a lot of what they criticize in the film. I disagree with some. Overall I found it helpful and moving, not to live out some fantasy of turning a lesbian, but like Banky, began to understand I was bisexual. I eventually broke out of the indoctrination of my upbringing and this movie helped, so for me it is was a win, and I will forever be greatful for it. Great video. More video essays plz! :)
💖💖💖 glad you found your way
This movie is like the film version of Pinkerton. It’s a really honest expression of really gross feelings that a lot of young straight men (I’m sure women/queer people do as well but as a straight man I feel like I notice that most among other straight men) experience when they become insecure about their lack of sexual/relationship experience. But it’s often repellant to people who don’t identify with those feelings, especially because both of those things feed into really sexist and homophobic tropes that were common at the time and still exist today. I appreciate Chasing Amy for what it is, because it’s probably led me to having more healthy attitude towards sexual experience imbalance in partnerships but it’s also a movie where if someone told me they hated it I’d be like “oh yeah I get that”. Many women probably don’t want to watch this if they’ve had to deal with being on the other end of it in real life, or if they look at it from the perspective of a queer woman and go “what the fuck is this” like some of the women in this video.
I know this series is about having queer people watch rough, problematic movies with queer or queer adjacent-representation, but as a fat queer person, I would LOVE to see you get a group of fat queer people together to watch Shallow Hal (even though the movie is extremely straight). It fits the vibe in similar ways imho.
I remember thinking Holden’s compromise of a threesome at the end was insane even as a teenager. I never really liked his character that much.
I went through something similar around that time, dating a bisexual girl who leaned lesbian at the time, but I was never under any delusion that I converted her or anything or ever felt threatened because she had more experience than I did at the time like Holden does with Alyssa. We just clicked really well at the time. She was the first person I can say I truly loved, and she had a huge impact on my life. We didn’t last, but I never resented her then and certainly wouldn’t now looking back.
Another amazing video.
As a woman who went through her Hoe Phase in the 90s, no slut, gay straight or bi, should have to apologize! We deserve partners who love us.... and the people we are because of the journey we walked. I told my (now) husband about my past and he never shamed me or made me feel like I was less. We've been happily marriage and monogamous for 23 years.
And I think the lesson we can all learn is to trust not Ben Affleck.... you heard one of his wives disappeared right?
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The internet's best film focus group curator is back!
Finally!!! The bisexuals get attention
I'm finally feeling attacked 😅
What if they made Alyssa a closeted bisexual who pretends to only like girls due to biphobia among her lesbian friends
I'd really like to see a remake of this written by queer women with this as the plot...Biphobia in lesbian spaces is so much more prevalent then people want to realize.
That's always been my headcanon read of the film
It’s heavily implied, just never stated
I really loved the scene with her lesbian peers because it spoke so much to my lived experience.
That's exactly what they did, though.
I kept being like what SA2 track is that? And then during the transition card to the reaction segment I realized it was Amy's theme. Because of Chasing Amy. Duh! I then promptly liked the video.
as a NB bisexual (making me an expert in all things bisexuality, i literally have a phd trust me bro) i have to say: this movie was kinda fun. the gay black guy (cannot remember his name, help me) is just, a slayful queen. i believe this film could've stuck the landing if it were able to properly walk the walk. i see the vision kevin had for it, and i see where it couldve gone, but i dont think kevin was the right man to take it there, especially at that point in his career. if a lesbian or bisexual woman were in the directors seat, chasing amy's themes would have been a lot less sloppy like ben affleck's character's kissing game. but also i kinda love this version for the crazy camp, the wackiness.
as a writer however, if i could change this movie, i'd nix the romantic divulgence. my man will not tell poor alyssa he's fallen for her, and then he'd realise his misogyny, fix it, and then idk he and his friend start fucking cuz itd be funny and everyone wins and i dont have to sit through the cringe and "oh you stupid, stupid man" parts
As a fellow bi enby I agree
your idea for the movie kinda ruins the whole point of holden's character and his development. him and banky wouldnt sleep together cause banky repressed his sexuality and only explored it after holden mentioned it, even so he was ashamed of it (jay and silent bob strike back) i get what u mean but ur proposing a completely different movie that doesnt work for these characters or ideas at all
A couple things....
- When Banksy and Allisa compare injuries, it was definitely a Jaws reference, the blue light boxes on the was were intended to referent to portholes on the boat in that scene.
- And my biggest thing... the whole idea of "turning" a lesbian was NOT the point of the movie. As Smith said in Q&As when asked about that directly, that idea was only said by the idiot of the movie, Banksy. He cared for Holden and had moments looking out for him, but for the most part, his ideas of sexuality and relationships were wrong or at least out-dated... he said those things not because it was what the movie was trying to say, but to challenge the main characters who reject that and grow in a different direction.
He includes a reference to Jaws, Star Wars, and hockey in all the View Askew movies.
At first I wasn’t sure why you were making lesbians watch this, but then I realized I mixed this movie up with “Judging Amy.”
huh, that's.....not anywhere near as bad as I was expecting, given the premise. granted, the bar's so low it's underground, but still.
I have a very werid relationship with Kevin Smith because when I went to film school in the early aughts he was seen by many of my classmates as like...the goal. Because he was a guy who "made it". I hadn't seen his movies at the time but the first of his I saw was Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back, which I saw with my dad who was a big fan of Clerks and Dogma. After we left the theater he told me to watch Clerks. So I did. And I liked it. So I saw Mallrats. I loved it. I started to understand why my classmates were into him. These characters were talking about Star Wars and comic books - I loved those things too!
And then I saw Chasing Amy.
At the time I was still discovering who I was and that included my sexuality and Chasing Amy was my introduction to 'queer cinema' because I watched it, I didn't love it, I didn't hate it, and even today my feelings of it are...weird. I think Kevin Smith had his heart in the right place, for what that counts. The Kevin Smith of today would probably make a worse movie but also a more...honest one? I dunno. It's weird. But, because of Chasing Amy I did explore queer cinema which led me to watching The Watermelon Woman (released a year before Chasing Amy! Guinevere Turner is also in that!) and loving it! So if nothing else, Chasing Amy helped me broaden my budding horizons as a student of film. For better or worse.
Looking forward to that Chasing Chasing Amy documentary.
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"you can't spell lesbian without bi" - the guy that wrote the movie probably
Sadly, Smith also learned you can't spell it without an L.
@@leowilliamson1573LMAO
its a movie about a bi woman in a time when bisexual people "didn't exist" according to straight and gay people.
While the film has issues because it’s written by a male who’s trying to see things from a woman’s perspective and failing, it isn’t as some have portrayed it, a fantasy for insecure men about converting a lesbian. If anything, it’s pointing out his faults. You see Holden as a selfish assh*le because you’re supposed to. The point of the movie is to make men relate to Holden, and then hold a mirror up to them so they see how that lesbian fantasy is idiotic and offensive. Was it clumsy?, sure, but in the end it meant well.
His heart was in the right place 100% that’s part of why I think he’s a genuinely good guy
I love Chasing Amy. Unless you were a bisexual woman in the 90's, you could never fully understand how important and empowering this movie was to us bi ladies.
It was the first representation of female bisexuality that I ever saw that actually gave the woman any sort of voice at all. Alyssa was a smart, strong self advocate- not just a ditsy s3x object.
Alyssa having the steel ovaries to BE bisexual to begin with... to lose her lesbian "friends" because of it. AND to stand up for herself against these men who would slut shame her yet turn around and still expect her to be a sex object they could just share around.
Yes, this WAS a documentary of what it was like back then. And yes Kevin Smith WAS saying something revolutionary for that time. Thanks to Joey Adams making him listen!
This movie was just EVERYTHING!!! It was SO NESCESSARY! It was so hard to be bi in the 90's. But this movie spoke up for us!
Joey Adams is a godess, and Kevin Smith also deserves so much appreciation for doing the work of personal growth and portraying misogyny and homobhobia to these dudes who NEEDED to recognize it in themselves.
The movie doesn't "endorse" the way bisexual women were (and still sometimes are) treated- it EXPOSES it.
Yes, it's between satire and a documentary. But that's why it's brilliant.
Yes, he did have something political to say, and no he wasn't totally clear on it. It was the 90's- Nobody was! (Especially not straight men when it came to LGBT+ and women's issues.)
But Smith really WAS onto something that most straight men weren't! And he earnestly shared what he learned with the rest of them. They needed to know. And lord knows they would only listen to it coming from another cis het man! 🙄 So I honestly am grateful to Kevin Smith for explaining it to them. It's pretty impressive that he was able to pull it all together and make an important statement film while he was still literally learning and growing himself, as they were making the movie.
Back when it first came out, I watched the movie with my Ex bf and his best friend- and I saw some realizations sink into their thick, male privileged skulls, irt.
This is such a good comment thank you 💖
i love how strategic you were with your name, "I'm evasive" is such a great reply
It’s way easier said than done but viewing it critically as an absurdist piece shines a light on a lot of the philosophy I feel is relatable throughout the movie. Watching as a queer person is a little more difficult as our experiences are used kind of metaphorically. I feel like his use of the recurring characters from dogma (I forget their names while I’m typing this) and the reference to godot in the beginning kind of hints to it being totally absurdist. The 3some *not* happening kind of shifts everything back into reality. It reminds me of Beckett’s “City of Angels”.
Great vid as always evasive ❤
Thank you thank you ❤️
I’ve always been obsessed with this movie based on how much I loved the first half and hated the second. It’s such an interesting film that so clearly depicts the mindset of the writer despite seemingly trying to say something different?
Also Banky is OBVIOUSLY in love with Holden. I guess Holden is a bisexual magnet, big he/they vibes
Evasive, this series is so creative, delightful, and fun, and clearly SO MUCH work to create and produce. Kudos! Can't get enough of you!
Never in my 32 years did i think someone would talk about pepper hands - an injury i have inflicted a non-zero amount of times unfortunately 😢
I'm not going to invalidate anybody's feelings on watching the film, but I honestly don't see how you can watch it and come to the conclusion that it endorses *anything* that Holden does or says. He's quite clearly shown to be in the wrong about everything except the final comic-book apology. As for the stuff Banky says, I really find it hard to understand how someone could watch the entire film and think that the intended message is that lesbians just need some deep dicking.
As for Alyssa herself, I think that's a more complicated question, but I don't think she's an unrealistic character. Because characters are often used as mechanisms for delivering exposition, it's easy to take everything they say at face value. But we know we can't take what Banky says at face value because throughout the film he's aggressively homophobic, but that is because he himself is gay and can't face up to that.
Biphobia was a big thing in the 90s. There are plenty of bi people who will tell you about being shunned or dismissed, even by LGTQ people, back in that era. So you have someone like Alyssa who was sexually experimental when she was young and who then moved from a small town to a big city. She finds the local gay scene and encounters exactly that biphobia (as we see later in the film from her gay friends). So she just says that she's a lesbian because it's easier and doesn't make her a target. Perhaps she's even much more attracted to women than she is men, so it's easy to just not be with guys. Again - I've heard from bi people who were part of the scene at that time who have said that they did exactly that.
It's perhaps notable that in the infamous scene in the rain she only briefly mentions being gay as an objection to being with Holden and spends more time talking about how it would turn her life upside-down. It's not her saying "I'm not attracted to you, and I never could be attracted to you", it's her saying "if I'm with you I'll probably lose all my friends". Which it's implied she does.
I think perhaps the biggest question is - why is she actually attracted to the immature manchild Holden? *That*, I think, is the bit that's the male fantasy. It's the "she'll be attracted to the completely average dude because it's written from a man's POV" thing that's still pervasive to this day. Maybe if he actually wrote a good comic and she really liked it there could be a "this reveals something of his inner self" thing, but IIRC she's quite dismissive of it and he himself describes it as "dick & fart jokes". I mean, sure, she fucked immature people in high school, but they had the excuse of being actually immature, she was experimenting, and she didn't actually fall in love with them (although she may have thought she had with some). So why him? God only knows.
Some of those reads came from bad faith and not knowing Smith’s story, and that’s on me for not filling them all in because I hadn’t done the research at that point. For me personally the only parts I thought were badly mishandled were the scene in the rain and the ending where Holden makes that comic and Alyssa isn’t mad at him about it. I completely agree with you on the rest of what you’ve said here.
great comment!
@@EvasiveOnei don't think it was bad faith. a movie shouldn't need outside context to get the "correct" interpretation imo.
Well said.
@@kat8559 and personally I think it's actually kind of a flaw with a lot of modern media criticism (or actually just people making any kind of statement). in which the "who" did is seemingly often considered to be more important than the "what".
Frankly, I think [parts] of Gen X come off very well here. We were exploring, asking, even daring. A lot of progress comes from exposing thought and action and forcing it to be examined. Kevin Smith and company deserve at least recognition for cutting through the woods even if they turned out to be wrong about a lot of stuff. I don’t mind having my generation judged here; I think we come off better than our predecessors.
"Better than our predecessors" is a pretty low bar.
@@thomaskalinowski8851 it IS the bar. Unfortunately, Boomers decided to pull the ladder up after themselves.
It's so entertaining to watch people in their early 20s act like (and genuinely believe) they have the entire human experience figured out. No judgement, it's a rite of passage.
Not to mention, missing the reality of what the decades before them might have actually been like, and that's perfectly acceptable given they weren't even born. The lack of an attempt to understand, have compassion, or acknowledge their own blindspot is literal ignorance.
I would love to see the same group react to this very video in 25 years to analyze how their own views have evolved.
@@itmeurdadHey, no judgement, but did you finish the video? I think they gave it a fair shot. At least one of them isn't in their early 20s and not only that, but also was alive when this movie came out and watched it. She even commented on the social climate of then a few times. I don't know where you think that they failed to try to understand. Anyone could say that you failed to understand them and their perspective.
Those weren't the good old days... and considering how superior Gen X act toward millennials and Gen z I'm cool that this flawed movie reflects your generation's flaws
Thank you so much for this! As a young queer teen I loved this movie too and repeatedly watched it almost as much as the trans guy who made the documentary, but when I remember it nowadays I just cringe because the idea of "converting" a lesbian is so horiffic. I've never watched it as an adult. I feel like as an old person I need to explain that Jason Lee's character was a more extreme version of a romcom archetype of a best friend who is a dick and makes the hero look better by comparison. The problem is that in the 90s being homophobic was so normalised that his personality was seen as going just a bit too far, and of course was also meant to be seen as a closeted gay guy overcompensating. I think the fact that he is seen as an unambiguously terrible bigot instead of a funny dickhead by young audiences today shows how far we've come as a society. I'm so glad that language and behaviour isn't seen as normal anymore. Also, I had no idea that the actress was actually dating Kevin Smith! That backstory explains a lot of the heroes of his films in the 90s being pretentious and weirdly uptight and conservative about sex, I guess he was writing himself as the hero. He is definitely not a hero and his recent output is pure trash but I still love Mallrats
The references to Degrassi are because Kevin Smith is a big Degrassi fan! In 2005, he guest starred on 'Degrassi The Next Generation' with Jason Mewes! I actually have an autograph from Jason signed "Degggrassiii! Rules!!! As does Canada"
Glad you brought up Chasing Chasing Amy! I met Sav years ago at a festival where he told me he was gearing up to do that doc and I was definitely confused by his point of view initially lol. After seeing it at another festival last year, it definitely all made sense. It’s very well put together and also, as mentioned, doesn’t shy away from some of the negative aspects. Definitely recommend it to anyone interested once it’s available!
Chasing Amy is problematic but damn if it’s not the best cultural touchstone for queerness and male fragility
Thank you evasive now I have to track down Chasing Chasing Amy
sounds like you'll be chasing chasing chasing amy
@@whyisthisafeature 😭 forever chasing chasing chasing amy
Labels, that's my favorite aspect of this movie. The whole, you have to pronounce what you are to be accepted by whoever is dumb, plain and simple. It was then, it is now, and it always will be. That's my takeaway from Chasing Amy.
It's a good movie but your mileage may vary.
For all the complaints about the men in this movie, and their distorted perspectives, there isn't any comment about Joey Lauren Adams and her characters perspective. If the reason for that is because you agree with the things she says, that ALSO came from Kevin Smith. He wrote that. So if Kevin Smith is a wrong headed, misogynist, then Alyssa is somehow a bad character, who is wrong about how to feel or express herself.
Another reason this movie is so complicated to talk about, Smith did some things very wrong and some things very right. I don’t think he’s misogynistic at all I think him and his movies and characters are just very much a product of their time
Yeah some of his characters are horrible.
eg. Jay
@@ephemera... I think you mised the point of my post. The only reason to have characters like Jay or Banky is to put the wrong words in their mouth to be able to have your main character say the right thing.
"Im not gonna tell u whos a lesbian, but there is a freebie in my friend with the smokers voice and backwards cap she refuses to take off."
Ive always found Kevin Smith to be a well-meaning airhead about a lot of stuff. His heart is in the right place a lot of the time even if his brain cant keep up with it. I think even if the majority of this movie aged like milk (despite it arguably not being that fresh to begin with) i trust that he truly was approaching this from a good place.
In its time, it was fresh imo
I've seen Chasing Chasing Amy and it shows that his heart was definitely in the right place
I don't know why the fuck this video was recommended to me and I don't know why I watched the whole fucking thing but thank you I was entertained.
dude this channel rules its so worth a binge
I have only seen this movie once. And I hadn’t realized my bisexuality then either. I’m so fucking ready.
It really feels like, as much as it also tries to have commentary, the other 99% of the film is just pretext to have Silent Bob's titular monologue.
And to be fair, I think that monologue is genuinely profound at points, and has a lot of insightful things for men dealing with similar insecurities even today. But as a result, a lot of the inclusion of queer characters and identities ends up collateral damage on his way to that analysis of sexual insecurity.
Yeah, but a lot of misogyny and queerphobia is rooted in fragile masculinity which in turn is fueled by sexual insecurity.
I've seen Chasing Chasing Amy. It's important to point out that that documentary made it very clear that Kevin Smith is very much an ally and nobody involved in the movie had any ill intentions. He was actually the first person Sav came out as trans to, and was very supportive.
Whenever I hear the criticism that this film is adhering to the male fantasy of "converting" a lesbian, I can't help but feel thats a little unfair and kind of surface level. Yes, she does say throughout the movie that she is a lesbian but only because she has been burned by men so much she has decided she will only pursue women. Technically speaking she is still physically attracted to men, making her bisexual. Wether or not labeling herself as something she really isnt is morally or logically a smart move is up to interpretation, but you have to remember this was the 90s and it was a lot different for the bisexual crowd of then, being "inbetween" so to speak was difficult back then. At the end of the day, i just feel we should stop looking at this film as a "man trying to change a lesbian" movie, and more of a bisexuals trying to figure themselves out kinda movie.
Dropping everything to watch this
I am a lesbian and I watch this movie when it came out, i watch it now and i think the same, it´s a good movie, it´s funny, it´s romantic, it´s intelligent, leaves the guys as assholes and we can see how sometimes some guys are in thit closeted misoginy.
I didn´t like the girl turns straight or bisexual or ends up with him, but sexuality is fluid and still think is a good representation for the time, is still funny, and shows us that sexuality can be fluid. But why can´t it be a about a lesbian with a lesbian group her whole life that suddenly realizes that she is bi.
We´ve seen a straight girl or guy realizing they are gay many, many times.
I approve this movie.
Love this comment and also love that someone actually called this movie romantic.
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