why women love TRUE CRIME? ⚠️
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 8 ก.ค. 2024
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Khadija goes by they/them, i didn’t use the right pronouns in the video, and I apologize for that.
Bonjour !
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SOURCES/RESSOURCES 📚
Amanda M. Vicary, and R. Chris Fraley. “Captured by True Crime: Why Are Women Drawn to Tales of Rape, Murder, and Serial Killers?” Social Psychological and Personality Science, vol. 1, no. 1, Jan. 2010, pp. 81-86
Mona Chollet, Réinventer l'amour, Zones, 2021.
Pierre Bourdieu, Sur la Télévision, Raisons d'Agir, 1996.
I found an English version for you: monoskop.org/images/1/13/Bour...
Other sources are cited throughout the video :)
TIME STAMPS:
00:00 : Intro
02:02 : Sponsored segment
03:01 : Part1_faits diversion
07:25 : Part2_bodies in true crime
SOCIALS 👩💻
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This is probably messed up but a thought hit me that women would also be drawn to true crime particularly to validate that we aren’t wrong or crazy to feel paranoid and fearful for our safety.
I think there's some truth in this. My male friends have never understood why I would want to text the details of my date to my friends, or why I would want to text someone when I'm home safe, and their lack of empathy really goes beyond just being clueless to becoming a kind of gaslighting like "it's not a big deal. you're just overreacting." Having to prove to them that the risks ARE real--while at the same time trying to cultivate a life for yourself where you're not constantly paranoid or fearful--is difficult.
@@sheeatsfish EXACTLY! for me i live in a relatively safe country, however that doesnt mean im not in risk of being in danger and its really sad when people especially men gaslight us and dismiss our anxiety because theyre so out of touch. So these videos are in a sense evidence to show society, predominantly women are not safe. even the nicest dude in the neighborhood could kill you if they wanted.
I've seen men complaining that sometimes when they went home late at night, the women on the street would try to stay as far away from them as possible, which make them feel that they're unfairly treated as source of dangers and they're mad about that.
Their lack of empathy really makes me mad. Women being careless could suffer painful death. I can't care less about your feelings in such cases
@@DL-idk As a guy, when I walk by women on a sidewalk but in an area where it is dark between streetlights I raise my right hand to wave, and say "good evening" while staying to an extreme side of a sidewalk. I am not offended if they cross the street, and sometimes I beat them to it if I see them ahead and it looks like an old lady that I wouldn't want her to have to go out of her way.
I don't think it is unreasonable to be able to place yourself in safe positions. Every man over 25 has gotten used to this, it is only the younger ones whose parents still treat them like children that are offended by stuff like that.
It is messed up but a thousand percent true 😤
"Women that watch true crime can learn from the cases they're confronted with [...] women can learn what gets men's attention and what doesn't" After hearing many stories about women kidnapped by men asking for directions, now I alway make sure there's somebody around before I approach someone's car and never act too friendly :/
It shouldn’t be that way, we really need to fight systemic violence against women or we become a society with distrust, which only gets more toxic.
Yeah it’s even little things like someone approaching you in broad daylight and asking how you’re doing. One time I said ‘good thanks’ with a smile to be polite, kept walking, and the guy followed me for a while. It’s a risk being too nice sometimes 😩
See I don't understand this. Men are twice as likely to be targets of violent crime. So why aren't they interested in true crime as much?
@@KManAbout because we have better things to do than be interested in crap shows that glorify kilelrs
@@KManAbout Women 'use' fear to avoid dangerous situations.The obvious example. Dont go down that dark street. When you become too fearfull you become agoraphobic or a hermit. So fear must be selective at an optimum between avoidence and isolation.
As a man you want to radiate a calm confidence and otherwise not stand out to make yourself a target of someone with violent intentions.
A man wants to give the impression of not being violent UNLESS someone is being violent towards him.
For a man avoidence is sometimes preferable.
In a dark area a man greeted me from behind as I turned back around to continue my walk he started sprinting straight toward me silently like he wanted to jump me.
I ran away as I judged the distance far enough to stay ahead if him.
I am a big man but violence is the nuclear option as the outcome is unpredictable. Did he have a weapon? He might be less strong but could gave gotten a lucky punch in the dark. Is he on drugs?
You dont know.
I stood out as I walked next to my bike.
I crossed an unlit area between tall buildings.
Someone greeting you from behind should have raused a red flag immediately.
I am big but some people see that as a challenge.
And drugs or alcohol gives them courage.
Our pain and degradation has been eroticized to such an extent that i think we collectively are just trying to find a way to live with that. When I was 13, I was r***ed by a group of men. Video was uploaded and got a ton of views on the most ubiquitous site for so-called "adult" videos. It hurts so much knowing that so many men enjoy watching women and girls being subjected to the most painful and humiliating acts imaginable. It sucks knowing how vulnerable we are due to the innate physical differences between the sexes. I think the fixation on true crime is how women try to assert some sense of control regarding this sense of vulnerability.
Thank you for making this video. You're amazing.
I’m so sorry to hear that ❤️ You’re super strong!!
I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you're not with these people. I hope justice can be done and you are safe and sound.
I hope you can heal somehow , and i do hope that those involved in this and the fact that they put that on the internet will pay for what they had done .
@@familyguy160 there's this saying that it's easier to peddle men's media to women, than women's media to men. Women have internalized this or have just tolerated it.
I am so so sorry you went through that. I hope you’re doing okay now and that you have a good day, you deserve it ❤️❤️❤️❤️
i loved how you mentioned women's bodies becoming a malleable canvas. their real names and identities are not the focal point - rather, the 'identity' that binds them inextricably to the violence committed onto them. female suffering has become an aesthetic, almost.
This is SO well put. But it’s disturbing to think about.
Pears and oranges maybe, but I thought about that episode of Love Death Robots called "Witness".
I am normally able to overlook casual misogyny in film, tv etc. So that it doesn't ruin my day. That one made me feel very, VERY unconfortable. I later learnt that a lot of people felt the same way and it suddenly started appearing in feminist blogs and stuff. That obviously pissed the dudebros a lot and they started defending that episode with passion. The funny thing is that, aside from the misogyny, the episode is very clearly objectively BAD: The only plot it has is "naked woman running away from murderer". Other than that it has no substance whatsoever. I was about to say "but the animation is good" but it's really nothing very different from an xbox gameplay. They also literally don't talk except a creature that is apparently the pimp of this woman and most of the talk is smut. I learnt from watching that episode and the backlash that yeah, the female body as the subject of violence and suffering is a whole spectacle that people seem to love. Nevermind that I feel uneasy watching: Apparently animation or whatever is not for me to enjoy. IDK.
ehhh idk. Who are you talking about? like the media when these cases are reported or true crime culture in general? I agree there's misogyny mixed in all of that but i see the same thing happening with men who are victims of violent crimes (one of the famous ones being a formerly unidentified native american man in canada who was tortured before being dumped in a septic tank and then people naming him a rather undignified name like "septic tank sam" and many other cases. My point is sometimes crimes comitted against women are so heinous (remember, even in the recent past, most of the time women tend to be victims - most victims of serial killers are women) that people tend to focus more on the details of the crime scene than the person itself because most ordinary people cannot comprehend the actions of these uniquely violent individuals. It's morbid curiosity. It's much more tempting thing than the recognition of victims and their identities which is done out of conscience. And yeah that is bad but it's not specific to women only.
@@missnoneofyourbusiness I feel divided on this lol. The episode does a good job portraying what a lot of women especially sex workers have experienced as a marginalized group but i also don't like the implication that just because people like the episode, they also derive pleasure from the suffering of women but there's also a whole film genre dedicated to simulate degradation and torture of women so idk.
@@ambatuBUHSURK I highly doubt that the intention of that episode was to portray the sufferings of sex workers 👀 It is literally (as in, LITERALLY, nothing more nothing less) a woman running naked from a murderer. It isn't even because she's a sex worker but because she witnessed a murder. Suppose it was indeed made to show the struggles of sex workers: What's the moral? How does one feel more empathy for them through that piece?
Although, I mean, yeah, perhaps it's not about making a spectacle out of a suffering woman. Perhaps it's just yet another case of "if the feminists don't like it it must be good and it should be protected at all costs". It's still unconfortable to watch even if you're not into feminism.
This reminds me of the book "The Five" about the five women Jack the ripper murdered. The book gives back these women's identities and discusses how the media at the time sensationalised their deaths and contributed to the idea that the murderer was "cleaning up" the streets and the assumptions that were made about the women's professions. Highly recommend reading
That l0ser should have never been turned into a hero. So many glorified l0sers and psychos.
He dipped his sausages in anything he wanted, and got some s**t transmitted to him, which he in turn gave to his wife, which they both transmitted to their kids.
It's all his fault as well, yet he played victim and killed these women.
I used to be a huge fan of true crime stories. But once I realized that it is not just somewhere "there" that happens to "them", but it is something that exists right next to me and I am a potential victim of such stories - my interest and love for crime stories died down almost immediately. Now when I read about any crime committed towards a human being it feels to me very personal and unbearable. I always read these stories as though it was me who was tortured and killed, and I can no longer understand how people can still enjoy reading about it. Imagine a story about an animal being killed like that - it just feels so uncomfortable to even think about.
this is so extremely relatable and is the exact reason why i stopped reading true crime written by and for a male audience. i was very very in to it, books and documentaries and articles. when you start looking at the language, the distancing from the person that suffered the actual crime, and an almost fetishization of the crime itself and elevation of the perpetrator, you realize why it's being written about. it's NOT for vindication or justice or a look at the person and their family or life, it's always in context of something else. i can't, for my own mental well being, consume that anymore.
Maybe a significant amount of long time enjoyers, of true crime, have a sense of sadism to insert themselves as the killer. In todays climate of general consumer media, alot of it seems to appeal with shock value.
Literally me except I never has a phase where I liked it
>Imagine a story about an animal being killed like that
>when you're an edgelord who cares more about animals than human beings
@@winstonmarlowe5254 Nothing edgy about it. We tend to be more avert to animal suffering in movies, because they are innately innocent - afterall people tend to hate scenes depicting the death or torture of a dog much more than the death or torture of a human.
I spent my childhood looking ugly and or “adorable” on purpuse bc i was afraid of the male attention I’d get if I looked really good. So now subconsciously I still think that way
Yes, same!
I kind of did the same for the same reason. As a teenage high school girl I was a tomboy on purpose in order not to draw male attention.
Sameeee😢. Around when i turned 13 or 14 i just stopped wanting to go out to ride my bike or just to the store alone bc i had started getting unwanted attention from guys and it horrified me once when someone whistled at me when i was with my slightly younger cousin. So till today i just would rather stay home and thiugh id want to dress more girly i prefer and feel safer wearin stuff that hides whats underneath like i dont want any shape of my body to be seen exactly as it is😥
I'm so happy to have discovered this channel! There's a serious void in quality content when it comes to sociology and culture critique. Thanks for all the hard work Alice!
aww thanks 🥰 i can recommend you a ton of other channels mate
@@AliceCappelle Shoot! :) My favourites so far are Nerdwriter1, CGPGrey, Exurb1a & Academy of Ideas
Well said, it really is.
@@AliceCappelle Do you have any suggestions? I can think of oliSunvia, who makes content on roughly similiar lines[1], but that's about it. (Well, besides you, of course)
[1] the "cute girl[2] who makes sociological/societal video vlogs"-type subgenre 😉
[2] Not that such a label is relevant to _good_ content creating, but it's about the first thing that struck my mind (is that a good or bad thing? 😪)
check out F.D. Signifier!
As a teen I LOVED the show Criminal Minds, and I wanted to understand all the references to real cases. So I read every book about criminology I could find at the library. I would say I had a kinda scientistic approach. During my time at university (I studied law, lol) I became a victim of abusive behaviour and sexual assaults, which took me a long time to realise for myself. I thought it could never happen to me with all my knowledge I had. Now I don't have any interest in true crime anymore, and just want to focus on the positive side of life.
Good luck and I’m sorry to see the sexual assault culture still continue.
I'm so sorry she assaulted you. You didn't deserve that
I will never stop mentioning how we studied the role of media in the Sociology of Crime and life has never been the same again. Perlego, an Online Library, has great resources on the Sociology of Crime.
Interesting video as always.
There's a direct correlation between how often a Country see's rape and violence against women in their media, and how misogynistic that society actually is.
Arundhati Roy, a renowned Indian writer, has always been vocal against how often women are raped in Indian media, "I grew up watching Malayalam films and in almost every film a woman is raped or brutally assaulted. Rape is presented in front of our people as entertainment and violence against women is presented as something to enjoy."
Any anime-watcher should be able to detect the constant misogyny seen under the surface of those plots. In damn near every episode of Samurai Champloo, the female main character has to deal with the threat of being raped. Throughout the entirety of Death Note, women only appear in the plot to be manipulated by the male characters.
When I was in High School I wasn't able to perceive these details, but as an adult, it's quite embarrassing how these manga authors are able to call themselves writers when they have such a limited viewpoint on life.
I think being able to see through fiction into a culture and point out the obviously problematic is something that we are getting better at here in America, but the narratives that appear in news media will stay uncontrolled and revealing of biases no matter how conscious we become of that.
Unfortunately, I think there will always be those toxic narratives that get clicks. Headlines that will strike a targeted political debate in the comment sections. Much like Amber vs Heard, actually.
Thanks for this observation. I wanna look up Arundhati Roy's work. And yes, lots of fictional media sensationalize crimes, and from the examples you gave me, Japanese authors may be subconsciously showing their readers just how screwed up their society is. Japan actually has the highest gender inequality according to a report, which I forgot but I had recently found. I know things like this are blurred nowadays but it's definitely disturbing how acceptable violence is, especially when framed in a sexualized or appealing manner.
Completely agree, as an anime watcher, I have to be careful in what I consume, because the amount of sexualization and disrespect for the female characters is so sad. As well as the bad writing. Good ones like Snk or To your eternity in which women are treated equally without any question are rare exeptions. And what makes it worse is that the fans are so accostumed to this, that still well written female characters are disregarded in comparison to their male counterparts.
@@sofiaoviedo9192 Gintama took it far and made a outro with male body gaze with a super serious song, basically genderbended fan service 😂. Also, I think fairy tail is one of the the biggest offender as far as fan service is concerned. Also now that I think woman being sexualized in Japan has also to do with decreasing population and fertility rate. Not sure about last part though.
@@anonymousinfinido2540 it can be a factor that they have low fertility rates which unfortunately reflects in making media appeal to men, which is one sided since women are the ones who get pregnant and to have kids the parents need to be in a stable relationship.
@@audrey9able true, I think they should look for other ways to increase population because anime and manga are back firing. like giving employees time to go on date (basically paid leave but for dating purposes unlike medical leave). Creating family friendly policies. The work culture in Japan, china, Korea, India is very stressful. It needs to change, so that one can have more time for family too.
I don't know why, but watching this video reminded me of a quote I read in a Norah Vincent book: "it's women who are paying the highest price for men's societal dysfunction". As a man, when I walk on a street at night and I see there is a girl approaching on the other side of the street I try to look as far as possible to the other side, I try to take out my phone and pretend to be busy writing something I try to communicate with my body language that I'm completely ignoring her because I know that I can be interpreted as a threat for her. If, on the other hand, it's a man approaching on the other side of the street I can't never ever look at him in the eyes because this is interpreted (by us, men) as "he wants to kill me or he wants to fuck me", as a sort of aggression. There is something incredibly broken in the way we men interact with women and other men, but the main victims are often women. I don't know how to break this vicious circle.
My girlfriend is pretty addicted to true crime. I often have to ask her to put headphones in when she's listening to one of her podcasts, because I just can't stand to hear the horrifying details of the cases. It's weird to me that so many people are so drawn to it.
Feeling you, I think it depends on how sensitive one is to the topic. I am a survivor of sexual abuse so it triggers my nervous system too much to enjoy and it also feels wrong to me to get stimulation from it. Others feel a feeling of excitement, which I also do but it is too strong to not be destructive to my body and mind
My mother is really into them too. For her its a reality check. Her generation doesn't leave place for discussions about how our culture (arts and such) gets off on the image of a tortured woman. True crime is what shows us the end result. Most victims are women who get assaulted and tortured, and most killers are men. It doesn't mean that there is something inheretly bad with men, it means the system we thought them is failing them. It also helped her to learn how to keep herself safe while hiking or clubbing. Same for me too.
There’s a general misconception that the majority of people who look into true crime “enjoy” true crime…I am terrified of these stories, I am disgusted by the details, I cry openly while learning about the victims and I am very sympathetic towards the people whose lives are ruined by a selfish perpetrator. I do not glorify or glamourize the serial killers and their tragic past experiences. Because they chose to pass that suffering on they lose all sympathy from me. I read true crime because as a women I have been victimized my whole life by men and society. My mother, my grandmother, my sisters and myself, we have been targeted our whole lives. The world is dangerous. And these stories matter, the lives of these victims matter.
That’s how I see it.
Thank you, this is how I see it too. I know many wouldn’t agree but I actually would like for people to continue to tell my story, especially if I died tragically. I want at least some people to care that I passed and why. Obviously, some true crime creators (especially big productions like documentaries) don’t treat the subject with the respect and sympathy that’s deserved. However that is not the case for every source
I don’t listen to true crime as much right now though. Because it does really hurt to hear what the poor victims had to go through.
Maybe you're a crybaby
as always, your videos always deliver.
in mexico comedy is a big cultural thing, and one of the most popular podcasts here in mexico is one of true crime and paranormal experiences with a comic relief approach. the male hosts argue that they try to humiliate the serial killers. they don't say the names that the media give them because they feel it may idolize them and encourage more people to be like them. they mock killers, but sometimes they too mock the victims. is it just comedy or is it misogyny?
however there's the discussion whether or not this comic relief approach helps or not to be somehow prepared for it. many argue that the hosts have developed such a thick skin that makes crimes like femicides (that are on the rise with approximately 11-12 women killed nationwide by day, in some towns the number is up to 20), something common and makes us more insensitive towards it, or even normal. and it's interesting given that the hosts are from Juarez Chihuahua, one of the most dangerous towns in Mexico were femicides and Las Muertas de Juarez are a really big thing to us Mexicans.
maybe it's the spectacle economy and politics, maybe it's internalized misogyny in the name of comedy, maybe it's both.
thx for such an interesting video.
What is name of podcast!? Interested!
@@linzlu7051 it's Leyendas Legendarias
Interesting that in a country with so much femicide people chose to make a podcast making light of it. I think it also has to do with how commercial media works, you see that on social media platforms more extreme shocking takes lead to more "engagment by the audience" and hence more advertisment revenue for the creators. So there might be a financial incentive for the creators to make fun of things others don't really make fun of (for obvious reasons). It could also be that the audience is looking for some escapism the layer of comedy might make for a more entertaining product. I do think these shows can be very harmfull since making fun off vicitms (for their naiveness or something) partly justifies the violence being done to them. Also i think making fun of killers can be cathartic but i think killers are being made by society and should be understood as something that can be mostly prevented, so i think it is better to criticize the conditions that leads to people becoming killers.
Then again i have never been to Mexico so it could also be something completely different.
I think making fun of killers is bad as well as making fun of victims.
While I don't hate Leyendas Legendarias, I can't stand the way it's narrated or how they handle the true crime stories. I've seen jokes incorporated into podcasts of true crime and it's been fine but when Leyendas Legendarias does it's just not good imo. Like I'm mexican but I don't enjoy their humor?? Might be biased though
"Conservative" men do a similar thing (at least in America) but from a standpoint of fetishizing self-defense, constantly reading stories and reviewing video of violent assaults, only in our case they end up psyching (and gearing-) themselves up to combat an assailant who almost never materializes. But boy, are they fascinated by it. In women's case it seems to be about security, in men's case about the insecurity that they can't consider themselves men until they've bested another man in combat. Often, they seem to salivate at the idea of "finally" being attacked. Another rabbit hole.
Kind of reminds me of stand your ground laws and the fantasies people have of killing someone based off of “self-defense”. States with these types of laws have actually seen an increase in homicides.
When we claim to defend ourselves we imply that our rights are being infringed upon.
Conservative men have such a vast idea of what their rights ought to be that they attempt to normalize this overreach by putting forward the idea that, they too, are afraid of something.
Except the only thing they're afraid of is anyone infringing on their bloated rights (which are only sustainable by exploiting everyone else). They have an established hierarchy of access to freedom: white men, white women, white children, everyone else. And these scared angry men try to normalize the right to give themselves the vip fast pass to life, liberty and happiness.
Men are twice as likely to be a victim of violent crime than women. So it's pretty essential.
I just had a conversation about the rise of the "alt right" (generalization, but best term I can think of) and how I believe it stems from the romanticization of war both real (WWII) and fantastic (think lord of the rings) and feeling a lack of purpose in life without a 'righteous' cause to fight for and the excitement and "character building" force of combat, in addition to the social bond of camaraderie and brotherhood that lacks in a lonely digital society. Even people currently in the US military often feel very bored and disillusioned by the lack of "action" that characterizes most four year contracts. They go for the adventure and do not receive it. It doesn't surprise me that people end up making up a threat and cosplaying a battle in one way or another to manufacture that feeling and experience. People are looking for purpose and often unfortunately find it in white supremacy movements, gun law crusades, and the alt right. We must examine this preoccupation with war, where it comes from, and how we can give purpose to people, especially men, without drafting them into a war of misinformation, white supremacy, and misogyny. I believe many of these people have good in them, but are very very lost.
This is an absolutely fascinating comment. I had genuinely never thought about this, but it seems like a media pathology that comes from a similar place. Thanks mate.
Maybe the subject of male artists and the way they treat women should be a video of its own. As for Why Women Love True Crime, I can say that I love this genre for the same reason I love Agatha Christie, solving mysteries with clues. Of course, I agree that I do take notes on how to stay safe. Also, I watch true crime written and narrated by women, I find it more interesting, with more psychology details and less cold when talking about the victim.
It would be interesting to analyze the differences between true crime content created by women vs created by men. I remember I used to hate those true crime “documentaries” that would pop up on TV and now on Netflix, but later I found out about the podcast called “My Favorite Murder” (which I also hate, although I only listened to 1 episode) and heard that a lot of women like that podcast and it has even brought together survivors and victims family members. Later I also found out about Kendall Rae and Eleanor Neale videos and I liked them (at least most of what I’ve watched, some others I find them more graphic than necessary and not focused enough in the people affected). I think the reason why I don’t like some but others I do is because most documentaries are focused on the perpetrator and the act of violence meanwhile the youtube videos I mentioned that I like (even though I end up crying my eyes out) are more focused on the impact these crimes had on the families, loved ones and the community. It’s weird because I feel like they’re still using others for profit and it’s wrong but at the same time it feels like you can empathize with the people affected by the crimes (which at the end of the day seems pointless because there’s nothing you can do about it but I guess that’s part of the catharsis).
Still I find it fascinating how true crime media created by women (not only consumed) is growing so much lately
I’ve watched it from the time I was a child, which I probably shouldn’t have, but I’m convinced it’s saved me multiple times. A man tried to abduct me when I was 5 and I already knew the tricks he tried to use to lure me.
I have been listening to true crime for some time now and i def had a time where i had to step back because it would be unbearable to hear at times and often puts me a bad head space but it’s also very informative on signs and awareness, but that also comes with intense paranoia and fear of humans (especially men).
Sometimes you can't change how your body is built and the fact that certain people enjoy taking advantage of that. The only thing we can work on is ourselves. Watch true crimes. Be aware of how dark this world can be. Don't trust easily. No need to be friendly. Learn self defense. Get pepper sprays. Protect yourself.
And last but not least: don't blame those who die because they don't know how to protect themselves. It's never the victims' fault that sick people exist in this world.
Lots of sociology is just reframing questions from individual to social "why do ppl act that way" "how did we end up with ppl acting that way"
There is a lot of truth to the idea that women watch true crime as both a cathartic medium and tutorial for survival, but in my experience talking to most people, they just watch it like gladiator bloodsport. That's why I'm glad you focused on the aspect if sensationalism and diversion of attention too.
It might only be my opinion because I've grown to be really disgusted by true crime (as entertaining as it admittedly is) because of its vapid commodification of victims, but whenever people I'm friends with talk about it (mostly women), they do so in a way that suggests total disconnection from the reality of crimes; in other words, they forget the "true" part of true crime and it becomes purely entertainment. People watch these shows like they would a drama or thriller work of fiction, not remembering that these are real victims, with names and lives.
In the wake of our most recent school shooting, tons of people approached a writer for the American show "Abbott Elementary," telling them that they should write a school shooting episode as the season/series finale. Most of these people cited something along the lines of "it would really bring attention to the issue of gun violence" etc. etc. Beyond it being a suggestion of poor taste, I think this is a demonstration of a deeper sociological breakdown at the hands of media.
Similarly, whenever I see an article or post about a crime that's occurred, or some big event, or something like the Depp and Heard trial, so many people in the comments are not sympathising with victims or simply discussing the post, but saying things like "Netflix needs to make this a show," or "Waiting for this to be an HBO series" or "They need to make a documentary about this." It's so weird to me and shows a societally conditioned lack of empathy and full focus on the commodity of media.
I think watching shows, be they fact, fiction, or something in between like true crime, actually acts like an unreal surrogate for caring about people. Instead of a real person, it's an object, a receptacle for attention and emotional analysis. You think people would know how to treat or understand others because of watching so much TV, but surprise-surprise, most people still don't.
So again, thank you very much for bringing up the sensationalist and distractive elements of true crime, because I think that's more the core of why people view it. Even if there are underlying unconscious biases, like women identifying with victims or it being a good contrast to silence, I think the medium is tainted by the much larger issue of psycho-social breakdown in people viewing crimes as entertainment, not as reality. Even further, because of media, they don't realise that violence, especially violence against women, is not an extreme, but extremely common.
Thank you very much for another great video, and thank you for actually having a really nuanced critique of true crime instead of the apologia most video essays do for the true crime industry.
This is the TH-cam comment, I gained the most insight from. Ever. Thank you for that comment. It made me think about quite a bit of stuff.
As someone who got into true crime around the year 2000 and 2001, I noticed a pattern in the male dominated forums and female dominated forums, as they both had pros and cons.
In the male dominated ones, the pros were that they were well researched, critical towards the police, and never really focused on victims with a certain skin color, nationality, class, sexual orientation or gender identity. The con was that it was heavily fetishised and I guess down right fucked up. The only thing that mattered was the brutality. If there was a person who had gotten a running chainsaw forced into their asshole, they didn't care who the victim was, or if the perpetrators were connected to the cartel, a group of misogynistic psychos or a lone serial killer, all attention went towards the act itself, like a group of kids hurdled around a collection of Pokemon cards.
In the female dominated ones, the pros where that they were much MUCH more respectable towards the victim, but that is where most of it ended. Most of it was badly researched, there was no critique or suspicion of the police procedures, and there was a focus on victims who were straight white women. Though nowadays most of those cons are gone, the research is better, law enforcement are getting the suspicion they need, and there seems to be more care towards other true crime victims.
But what I have always had an issue with true crime becoming popular is that now, true crime finds you. All you need to do is to go on trending and see something true crime related or go on explore on Spotify. Back in the day, there was almost a religious devotion amongst true crime fans to make sure that the people who couldn't handle it were not meant to be there. If you wanted true crime, YOU needed to find IT.
My mother is the biggest fan of mysteries and crime shows. My fascination for detective shows (the cheesier, the better) mainly comes from her.
Addiction to drama, that's it. All the mental gymnastics and justifications for being addicted to the morbid and depressing won't change that.
Yep, also hybristophilia.
Alice setting her place in the woods is a mood. I can’t even shoot something in the garden nearby.
😂😂😂
You're one of a handful of youtubers who come at issues in such a thoughtful, considered way. It's so refreshing.
I think it’s really shady “hobby” to have. A lot of the true crime creators seem rather disrespectful towards victims and people say they use humour to cope, but its not their pain to deal with. I don’t think you can learn from these stories either, even more i think they make people a bit paranoid sometimes.
There are many wonderful creators who tend these stories with respect. Just talking about a case as it was and trying to see trough it isnt disrespectful in my opinion. As a young feminine person i need to wantch my back constantly to not get harassed, touched of approached. My mother often watches true crime videos. She also loves hikeing. She uses these videos to learn how to keep herself safe. I also learned from them a lot. Sad as it is, its not paranoia, little boys are said to hurt girls because they like them, art depicts woman as non-active, submassive entities, and sexualizes their suffering. If our society leaves room for this, women do need to keep themselves safe. Yet i can also understand why it may seem odd...
Absolutely.
I think its pretty similar to documentaries or news broadcasts though. Some are good and want to tell the victims story. Most of the good ones are actually in contact with the families of the victims they are talking about at some point and get the family's blessings before making the videos. Some also try to focus on ongoing cases specifically to spread the word and increase the chances of missing people being found or info being given to the police.
Then there are of course some who are less good and only want the views they can get from sensationalizing tragedy even if they know the families don't approve. I usually get bad vibes from anyone who does their makeup while talking about it. There's a surprisingly large amount of those ones and for the most part they seem to be the ones who care less about getting the facts right from what I've seen.
Their thumbnails are horrible, Kendall Ray does it the worst. I was so disgusted by her after I noticed how she’d make a really stupid face 100% of the time for the thumbnail about someone’s murder. You’d expect that from a gossip blogger or something. Wtf is even going on anymore
@@IkarusTelevision @IkarusTelevision I didn't say little boys hurt girls when they like them. I said this is what they tell you as a little girl. I would never say men are inheretly this or that, thank you. Also BDSM tastes are very much effected by our traumas and experiences. Its not rare that r*pe victims use non-con BDSM scenes to heal,or people who been hurt recreate the same experience in an enviorment they can control. This is also backed up by my personal experience as a lesbian. Also Men often enjoy being the revicing in these kinks too, its just more of a taboo.
Also its pretty problematic to say women make an image for themselves with consensual kinks. Like bro, just because many people in general like sex one does not start banging a complete stranger on the street because they heard people like the act. So please stop with talk like that. Its just pretty pretty creepy.
If you want studies give me a bit of time to collect some good ones for you.
This video wasn't what I was expecting from the title, but turned out to be much better. Merci!
hybristophillia, same reason some date criminals. Same reason some killers will have many female fans that'll send them letters.
I am a 16 y/o girl and i thought about this question. Personally I think I watch true crime because people in the documentary or video talk about how bad of a person this k1ller is and how bad they feel for the woman (the victim) and that we should protect them more. It gives me assurance to know that there are people out there who don't victim plame by saying "she was out at night" or "she was asking for it because she went with him" or "It's because of what she was wearing". In true crimes people represent k1lling and v1olance against women as a horrible act and that people who do it are sick and should be locked away because they are a threat to our society. I don't think women watch it because of some fetish. In the media it's represented as if women like it so that society would justify or at least understand why k1llers behave that way
Male violence against women and girls is something that needs to be talked about more often.
I read a book called "Self defence - a philosophy of violence". It talked about how oppressed people are systematically deprived of the right to defend themselves, and in this context fighting for their own safety becomes a political action.
Maybe encouraging women to learn how to defend themselves, and portraying in our cultural production as such, would help bring forward the vision of women's bodies as their own and not just a stress relief for some men's mental issues.
Just a line of thought
I think self defense is important but at the same time violence against women needs to taken down systemically via policies. Self-defense is precautionary but also its increase is typically a reaction to systemic violence that could be stopped when analyzed and provided solutions.
@@ricardobarahona3939 also disabled women or girl child might not have upper hand even with self defence, add to that some people just freeze during assualts so it might not help
Learn to attack seems like more work then teaching dont attack, creating violence not getting ride of it
The thing is I don't want to have to defend myself. I don't want this situation to exist in the first place. I'm tired of seeing a threat in so many men. It shouldn't be my burden to bear, it's the men who should work on it.
Pepper spray do wonders. It's non lethal and 100% effective against agressors.
I mainly watch true crime because the mystery "aura", the dark visuals, eerie music and the soft spoken narrator voice... It kinda feels relaxing and interesting
Wow thanks for the perspective, as a heterosexual men I never understood the appeal of true crime. I always found it super disturbing to hear about descriptions of womens mutilated bodies and always wondered why women are interested in that stuff.
It's actually crazy that the explanation from men's rights activist that the reason for that phenomenon is that women actually want to be abused and all that bs is a lot more common on TH-cam.
Do they actually say that? They should be supervised so they don't hurt anyone
@@evansecencefan1435 For real. Those men should be put on a watch list.
Thank you for this analysis Alice! I am myself a big true fan enthusiast, it comes like the flue, absorbs me and spits me out a few days later. I never know why I get so into it and honestly feel a bit of shame when I talk about it to friends who don't read/watch it.
Your conclusion reminded me of what a rape victim said on the show "Ca commence aujourd'hui": I am lucky that I was raped the right way. By a stranger, in a dark alley, I am lucky that I fit the fantasy and the stranger-danger stores.
As you said, these stories bring visibility to the exceptional that takes places within the ordinary violence of women/afab people's lives. It might give even women/afabs something to hold on to, a distinct picture when the violence they are surrounded with is such a blur. Violence comes in so many insidious forms that those stories bring a sort of certainty, help draw a lign between horror and what's "okay".
On the other hand, the fact that it is shared in various media detaches it from reality, turns the truth of the crime into a distant story, like a modern little red riding hood. It might give the illusion of safety when at the end of the day you can just close the book or the computer tab and escape the horror.
(side note: also, indulging in true crime as a detached viewer for one own entertainment is such a privilege. A friend's brother went missing a few years ago, watching the searches on the news, the anxiety, and the pain felt when he was found lifeless is one of the most distressing things I experienced and witnessed. )
Great video ! I really liked that you pointed out that when news stories about violence are shared there is a focus on the individual perpetrator, we see the same with mass shootings in America, where the question is always around less or more guns, but never about making a society where peoples social and economic needs are being met and hence they are being far less likely to commit crimes and other atrocities.
There is also a whole genre of criminal psychology channels that analyze the manipulative speech, body language, and behavior of male criminals during their police interrogation, and I think I watch them so I know how to spot them.
This video topic reminds me a bit of Evan Rachel Wood’s documentary called Phoenix Rising where she talks about the abused she suffered from Marilyn Manson while they were together. So often artists just get away with inexcusable actions simply because they are « artists ».
As always, your analysis is so beautifully intellectual and eloquently explained😌
one of the best video essay youtubers!!!!
AHHHH! Always so excited when you upload a new video! Keep up the good work, Alice!
a new alice video is always a cause for celebration!
Amazing video, writing a song right now that deals with my own fears, and the common fear of most women of feeling unsafe in public/private and around men in general. This gave me a new perspective to work from so thank you :)
Thank you for everything that you do, Alice. You bring me great comfort after a bad day - and I appreciate you so much for always managing to boost my mood and provide fascinating sociological content in the meantime; it truly does mean a lot to me, and I just wanted to take this time to thank you for it :)
thank u for watching the videos 🥲
whenever alice says 'if it's not done already' i feel so intimidated even though ive been subscribed since one of the first videos
I haven't heard some of these ideas before. It's definitely given me a new perspective as well as helped to connect a few of my own ideas internally. Thank you for making this video. I'm definitely subscribing to your channel.
Such an interesting video. Glad that I stumbled upon it. As a woman who has a love hate relationship with true crime stories, I would like to share my experience with it. I started watching true crime during the pandemic more accurately at the very beginning of the pandemic. I have also noticed a big influx of true crime on TH-cam during that time. I was stuck at home, anxious, not sure what's going to happen to my and my loved ones' lives. I couldn't plan things anymore which is extremely important to me since I'm a bit of a control freak when it comes to my life. Weirdly, I found some kind of comfort in hearing true crime stories and it made me feel less anxious. It sounds horrible when you put it like that in words but I fully understood the concept of true crime. That it happened to real people (mostly women like me), and in most cases when I was watching the videos I was crying feeling empathy for the victims and unfairness in the justice system. During that time, I thought that maybe I can learn something from those videos. What are the bad people looking for in a victim? How to protect myself? Fast forward to now, the pandemic got a bit better with the vaccines and lives getting back to somewhat normal. I started going outside a bit more. Tried watching true crime content as well cause it became almost a routine for me. Got incredibly anxious close to a panic attack. Just knowing that I am a woman and I fall into the statistics of people most likely to be attacked. It became so so scary. I'm wondering if true crime during the pandemic was some kind of twisted way for me to feel any control in my life, and now it just vanished.
I think you definitely have a solid theory going on here! I was very drawn to reading about Dahmer recently for no reason and thinking back at it knowing that his victims were mostly gay black men I realized that could be the very reason why I was so perplexed and stuck in reading about him. Me being his exact usual type of victim is the reason why... The same works for women with any other serial killer.
always waiting for new content from you! honestly, I have learnt so much from you
My previous understanding was that true crime was the public safety rollercoaster for women. You can enjoy a dose of fear & danger all while not putting yourself into that danger. Really interesting to hear the other nuanced aspects that i hadnt considered. Keep it up Alice! Great content as always. Smashing it 😀
My mom has always watched crime shows, fictional and true crime, and I was allowed to watch with her since I was 6/7 and it resulted in me being very paranoid of leaving the house after dark alone. Never had to have a safety talk with parents though, I was always aware of the dangers...
Love your channel :) Thanks for the podcast recommendation!
I think it also has to do with the fact, that it is easy to consume. and can be used as an emotional and especially moral outlet.
Like the format is always quite similar and you always know how you should feel about it, as there usually is, or at least there is portrayed to be, a clear "good“ and "bad“. You can feel sad and sorry for the victim and anger and disgust towards the perpetrators and frequently frustrated towards investigators. And you can also feel morally superior as the bar is low. Often things like: "It’s unbelievable how they could do something so terrible“, are stated, showing that you could never do something like that and thus are not a bad person. And with solved cases there is also a satisfying finality when "justice is served". All this makes it a lot moredigestible than, for example, political content that usually present largeunsolved problems that are really complex. You can’t always be sure what tothink and feel as there is no clear good or bad and no simple solution. Plus,you often feel morally inferior because you are not doing much to help solve the problem. (at least this I think is the case for me, I can't speak for anyone else)
This is a very interesting take. I think you’re right
Alice, you NEED to read The Unreality of Memory by Elisa Gabbert. There is a whole essay about true crime and it’s SO interesting
It's human nature to want to know what happened to feel safe as long as that circumstance is something that won't apply to us. Someone died in a car accident. Did they have their seat belt on? Were they speeding? Oh well, I wear my seatbelt and don't speed so that wouldn't have happened to me. Someone came down with covid. Were they vaccinated? No, well I am so I'm safe. etc...
With crime there is a set of crimes that apply equally to both men and women, but women have an extra layer of danger that is mostly unique to them. Also, a man can feel somewhat equal to an attacker so they can feel they have a fighting chance while that is less so with women and why women often feel safer if they take a self-defense course, I suppose.
I think therefore women are drawn to crime stories to disqualify themselves from those particular dangers by learning what not to do that made the victims in the stories vulnerable. They also want the bad guy to get caught of course.
I think I'm saying mostly what you said in your video, but what I wanted to add is I think while women tend towards crime stories, men for similar reasons might be drawn to adventure or war stories. The stories present circumstances where they can ruminate on how they would handle them. Do women think about what they would do as a soldier in war? Probably not as its unlikely they will be one. Do they think about what they would do in the wilderness to survive? Possibly more so these days, but historically and culturally women weren't putting themselves in that position as often. (I've read and watched nonfiction kayak and cycling adventure stories where the adventurer is female.)
Omg I feel you for your doctors appointment! Around 12-13 y.o. I went to the dermatologist to check a mole that seemed dangerous and that I had to remove. At the end the guy did a joke about my acne (which I had a lot but wasn't self-conscious about) and it hit me so bad I started using way too much foundation to hide it, which made it way worse and my self confidence went below 0. Just because of that guy, ugh.
@@darthvader1793 sorry, the doctor guy 😅
@@darthvader1793 i still have scars 13 years later but very light. I didnt even have severe acne but it was aggravated with dairy products consumption and putting foundation on everyday
@@darthvader1793 good thing I stopped ! Its terrible for the health and also our wallet haha
We can’t have a real conversation about the safety of women in public space because if we did we would have to disassociate what puts women in danger from what women are the most afraid of. If we talked about how those things don’t correlate well then women’s fear wouldn’t be held up as some immutable emotion that can not be challenged for it’s own biases, misperceptions, and logical inconsistencies. Men have fears of their doors being kicked in by thugs who want to kill them and steal their stuff, it’s not a fear that we should organize society around and we have conversations about how low social trust and an inability to measure risk causes that kind of thinking that gets people shot. It is merely the consequences of being afraid and armed that cause us to tell those people (men) to contextualizar their fear. But women have a responsibility to do it too.
Helps me feel gratitude in the present moment, helps me live more consciously, helps me not take things for granted, helps me know the depths to which men will sink while remaining unsuspicious on the surface, helps me maintain an attitude of memento mori
Just found your channel and been loving your content!!
your work is so impressive. thank you for sharing it with us!!! greetings from Brazil 🫂💚
Forest for the intro - very smooth
Oh, I was so surprised to see this topic pop-up! As surprised as I am by the increasing frequency that I hear female friends or acquaintances mention that they're into true crime. I tried listening to some of the podcasts together with them and was thoroughly disturbed. After this video, I am even more curious about the roots of this morbid fascination. Maybe it's like the inverse of men being fascinated with narratives and images of war/violence/self-sacrifice? Also, I am angry at the creators of either sort of content. It is necessary to talk about these topics and it is necessary to do it responsibly.
Ok, my two cents here. I grew up in central Africa until age 14. Was SA several times and feared for my life a few times when i was over there too. Now i'm 40yo, been passionate about true crime all my life. So yeah, it's entertaining, intense and there's a sense of relief when the case is solved. Law and clarity over chaos and tragedy. You know, because life is unbearable and too chaotic.
Très content que cette chaîne soit tombée dans mes suggestions, très bonnes vidéos ! (et j'adore entendre des français parler d'autres langues Haha)
Just discovered your youtube channel, i love it, also love that even though you are french you're speaking in english! The video overall is also very pleasant to watch and very nicely edited :) However as a true crime fan, i can't help but disagree on the misogynistic aspect, as i have also dwelved and taken interest in a lot of female serial killers "profiles" and their really interesting backgrounds and many different motives!!! A part ça, rien a dire, vraiment super video, et j'adore la lampe dans le fond, continues!
im very selective about what true crime i consume. i like podcasts that humanise the victim. that let me get to know them. i also like podcasts that give a broad, objective view of the crime scene, avoiding all the sensational gratuity. also, to focus on following and processing the investigation + court proceedings. to be critical about cases and the systemic issues that often derail them.
its a very logical consumption for me. but its also very emotional for me. mourning a stranger. mourning a fellow woman.
my brain gets bigger every time i watch your videos and listen to you speak
personally i enjoy true crime podcasts for several reasons - 1) the mystery behind unsolveds (my favs) 2) watching the process of police work and/or how detectives are solving each case - it's fascinating and in early teen years i even dreamed of becoming a detective myself 3) and yes it's kinda educating about what people should be afraid of in other people, what should and should never been done. and as a ukrainian we have here and in russia mostly male true crime youtube creators who just make those videos as some sort of documentaries so i never thought it's just a woman thing and such a gross thing as in american youtube (i mean all those shitty crossover videos like true crime x muckbang)--
I was waiting for a fun video essay to come by and also I would like everyone to watch a video essay by BooksLikeWhoa on True where it’s explained. ‘The Take’ also has a video essay on it.
Yes. That’s a really great TH-cam channel. I try to watch all of their videos.
That ancient roman column in your room. 🤩
you are getting better and better.
Thank you, sister. These things should be discussed...and improved!
Great video Alice!
Good work Alice!
Great video! I’ve always found this pattern disturbing and weird.
your videos are amanzing my fav youtuber without ANY doubt
Quote of the Day: “I look like a Catholic Scout today. Don’t judge me.”
I will watch this once I am in the right mental state to do so.
Same
same here, I just cant handle being confronted with misogyny right now
This was a very interesting watch
I started to consume true crime content on TH-cam this year, at first I was annoyed by the fact of people making profits with the suffering of the victims, seemed morbid to me. Then I understood why is important that those stories are re-told. We humans have a bad memory, these atrocities need to be listened again because we must not forget that violence is still happening and we need to be aware.
I didn't get into true crime but I did really get into "the psychology of killers" video essays here on youtube.
I think for me the primary thing that drove my curiosity was the fact that these people walk among us - they blend into our environment until we learn how to recognize them.
I think in another way it also helped me deal with my "fight flight freeze" response because I would always freeze. Desensitizing myself to the initial shocking details helped me process rather than shutting down (because I get overwhelmed). So in a way it was like I was training my body to accept that (1) it happens (2) no one is coming to save me (3) only I can save myself.
This was during the phase that I was very obsessed with psychology. I always had an "off feeling" about some person or a situation but without this knowledge the only thing I could come up with was "i have no idea what they'll do next, they're a black box". Now I feel like I'm less socially blind. Idk, maybe there are some parallels.
@@olenabogdanov definitely is helpful to know which traits we should be aware of so we can have a different reaction than freeze, like you said.
But that's the thing: after they have watched this content, what do they do about it? If it doesn't lead to any type of action then I don't believe it's about "the importance of telling these stories". It just becomes cruel and sadistic entertainment.
thank you for the great video. What do you all think should be the focus after these crimes?
I agree with the points in the video, that it is a bad tendency to focus on the individual sometimes sexualized details, but it's hard for me to pin down what exactly is a good perspective to look on those cases. Maybe you should kind of begin with a very wide perspective and focus more and more on the details, while looking for contributing factors and if they are preventable. With wide perspective I mean zooming out and look at the town it happened in, the laws there, the execution of the law, economic situation, racism etc. and after that comparing those observation with the case of the crime. And after that you could look into the concrete reasons that are probable for the person to comit the crime.
What are your thoughts on that?
I am curious about the statement that domestic violence is a consequence of poverty, in the sense that poor men turn to domestic violence to regain power or control. Do you have any sources on that? It just doesn't sit right with me, and I have not seen a statistic that would lead to that correlation. I totally understand the relationship between poverty and domestic violence, but in the sense of how it affects women, not in the sense of making men more likely to be violent. It is probably my own bias, but it seems to me that making this correlation verges on making an excuse for this behavior when it comes to poor men.
I didn’t know she went outside! She’s a real person!!!
I remember South Park did an episode on this exact topic.
I feel there is also a factor of romanticizing the trauma or percieved threat. When feeling helpless against a culture of misogyny and absence of structural change, the only option is to romanticize the reality. This is essentially same as R-victims tend to dismiss the event and take long time to come to terms with it. Something which also led to popularity of Pheonix Act in US.
Merci beaucoup, Alice.
The main reasons are gynocentrism, in-group bias, and solipsism.
Can you make a video on your book recommendation 💕
I'm very intrigued by this subject and I'm glad you dove deeper. If I may add my thoughts, I believe that women's interest in true crime occurs from a combination of feelings, (1) the need to feel understood for the dangers they experience daily and (2) in the case where the accused is a woman, I believe it also speaks to female rage and a more realistic representation of how lethal female rage can be, instead of the cute version portrayed by the female gaze.
Indeed women, including myself, try to understand potential dangerous patterns, maybe because it's in our nature to dive deeper into behavioral analysis rather than take things at face value. And we shouldn't forget that all people go through a cathartic emotional process seeing a 'rare' violent case that did not happen to them, making them feel more lucky and safe, being from the POV of the viewer.
I do believe the reasoning behind this is a combination of elements, yet most of them occurring from the fact that society has been shaped and structured by men.
Imagine thinking you know how an entire gender feels. These femceI channels have gone too far
@@lightghost7524 how are you connecting femcels with this comment? Sharing a perspective on such a societal subject does not promote any ideas related to what you mention.
I think people in general are also very drown to emotions and it doesn't really matter if they are positive or negative
Odd tasting water ? Omg imagine drinking it
Brilliant analysis Alice! It's so interesting seeing sociology and the like being applied to modern issues and phenomenon, you always seem to have a very fresh and informed take on everything. Some of the best journalism and discussion on youtube, I always look forward to these videos :)
"Hello, I would like to report some strange tasting water."
"Ah, well, that would be because of the corpse found decomposing in the water tank."
"Oh, thank God. For a moment there, I thought my ice cube maker was on the fritz."
Excelente video, saludos desde Buenos Aires!
A true crime lover.
12:17 oh mais c'est Alice Cordier qui préside le collectif, csc par essence
I've always been skeptical about true crime. I truly can't understand how people can enjoy it. To me, true crime is a reminder how dangerous and scary society is for women. How crimes against women turns to be just a entertainment for bored folks at home. When I was a teenager who was pretty much safe inside my room, I could watch some stuff like that, but as grown up woman right now, I'm terrified. Because I know that awful crimes out there, they're not just on the screen. Plus, I think consuming true crime can be really damaging for mental health. The way documentaries are depicts crimes in a very graphic way, let alone the crimes itself, is seriously scares the shit out of me.
This is only an
essay Children
and philosophers vs. adults and
nonphilosophers Science as an autistic enterprise The past too has a
past Mispredict and live a long, happy life
(if you survive)