I love that you talked about how there’s nothing more attractive than people who care about people and things around them. The trope of a ‘Bad Boy who hates everyone except for Me’ is so toxic and propagates a certain possessiveness in relationships that people even begin to expect. Looking beyond the selfishness of seduction is so important for us to be kinder to our partners
Yea and some men(and women) forget that it’s just a tv trope, it’s not supposed to be real or a personality trait because at the end of the day it’s a made up, one-dimensional character trope that only works on screen. It really doesn’t work in real life.
Bad boy being kind to you and not everyone else is literally a fake guy who kind to you for certain things. And also let's say someone like that exists then it's extremely rare that you won't even find someone like that.
That is so true. And what is really important is that they do not only care about you but really care about the people in their life to be a caring person
Just wanted to add this: some people might come off as the nihilistic angry bad boy type because they're sensitive people that also care but they are disillusioned with things, they are burned out. That's what happened to me. I love living things I love animals and nature, art and music, I've spent a lot of time volunteering at animal shelters, when I see a homeless family it is enough to ruin my day sometimes. I am an artist and I'm extremely sensitive yet thanks to living an a major metropolitan area in the United States I hate most people. I feel like the masses here, the culture here is literally destroying what I love and that makes me hate them. A part of me will be glad to say good riddance once the big nuclear exchange between the west and east happens. Life hardens people no one is born a nihilist.
Alice, your reaction to the Felix constantly asking for consent being cringe reminds me a sexual ed class where a classmate balked at the idea of being asked to be kissed. I remember being a very confused 13 year old boy because I was being taught to always ask for consent, but this girl had just proclaimed that sort of behavior unattractive. I think it can be tough (not impossible) for inexperienced men who are attempting perform traditional masculinity in romantic and sexual settings, but also want to respect their partners. There's a constant balancing act between assertively taking what's "yours" and respecting your partner.
Girls also grow up in a culture of toxic masculinity, where they are taught* that a "real man" behaves in XYZ ways. Many girls can see how it is harmful, but many don't. For some, it takes growing up, or a bad experience to learn that perhaps the type of masculinity they were taught* to be right, was never right. *Taught = taught perhaps in school but also by the social environment, family, friends, media
If someone does not want to be asked to consent to X but does want X, they'd be better off volunteering their enthusiastic consent to X rather than hoping someone offers exactly X without consent being exchanged. On the male end, being expected to be slipshod about consent is a real turn-off, among worse things.
Its also helpful to contextualize her claim as her own personal boundaries. She is one person-for her this is her boundary, her consent. Other people might not like that, then it is not consensual for them. Consent is like a discussion of personal boundaries and mindfulness about what one is actually comfortable doing.
Sad part is this will never change. The burden of performance and leadership will always be on the men even in modern dating. Relationships are still about power dynamics and balancing our biological instincts with being civilized and morally upstanding. It’s exhausting sometimes and is why dating for men feels like a job interview and dating for women is like shopping.
In India, mostly mainstream movies, tends to give none to little voice in terms of, what she (Female lover) expects out of love or relationship, it is usually the male counterpart whose views on love and expectations are resonated, much of a time, fuelled by already dominated stereotypes if not mostly. The cultural impact of these movies is seen, in how mostly people expect love to be.The hyperfeminity (premodelled, and hyperperfected one), the lack of concern to her opinion, her life just revolving around her lover, is still dominantly existing.People are ofc becoming aware and critical to these representation, but the subtle presense of these expectation in the psyche of people is still prevalent. I remember being told by a guy like how It have been easy to love, if there was no feminism because basically the girl wouldn't have had a problem with his anger issues or wouldnt repulse to his anger without 'feminism' and then there would be no problems in his love relationship. Like he assumed that girls in general were okay, with anything bestowed in the name of love or along with love because that's what he has been exposed to (ofc there are more layers to this behaviour but media representation do project and reinforce this). We are not friends btw not anymore.
And Bollywood has a problem with stereotyping women into a) the westernised narcissistic sexy nags b) the tomboy/strong and not-like-other girls c) the ‘relatable’, ‘funny’, quirky’ and ‘goofy’ one and d) the submissive shy, introvert, respectful, traditional and cultural girls. And they make men more relatable than the women in Bollywood, even in South Asian cartoons
I am Indian as well and unfortunately I had the same experience. One of my guy friends explained how feminism is ruining the dating pool for men. Like we are sorry we (women) are becoming aware of idiots like you. I loved your take on this.
@@theblob156 True, Apparently Women written by Men seems so unrelatable and lacks any conscience that you question what goes inside the head of the writer, though some of the women of Imtiaz Ali movies have still more shades than stereotypical one.
We humans are like onions. There are only layers, no core. If you strip all the layers, there's no 'inner self' left. Even while alone we still perform, in front of an imaginary audience, according to the fantasies and visions we have of ourselves. Our performances are our real and only selves. Life itself is a prolonged performance.
while I agree that much of life is performative, if even just for oneself, I wonder why you feel you can speak for all of us having no inner core/soul/essence. How would you know that you're not just extrapolating from your own, apparently core-less, experience?
Nonetheless, performances can be on different layers. Maybe different cultures, genders and people express and expect love in a more explicitly performative way than others. And so love and displays of affection can either fall into more conscious or more involuntary performance modes.
This was a /great/ video essay. As a Spanish person studying French, I've been pretty appalled by the mainstream anti-feminist discourse you find in popular newspapers in France. The "love is suffering" mindset really reminds me of the rhetoric we used to spouse until very recently at it hits home in a very uncomfortable way. It gives me hope to hear that young French people (both men and women) are actually much more pro-feminism than the media lets on.
Hello Alice. Je suis française mariée avec un Anglais et c'est lui qui m'a montré a quel point le cinéma français entretenait ces stéréotypes malsains. Il me dit souvent: "c'est facile de reconnaitre un film français il y aura toujours une scène où 2 personnes au moins s'engueulent sans raison apparente et/ou une scène où ils parlent de sexe de manière ouverte/inapproprié/malaisante ". Moi cela ne m'avait jamais choqué étant baignée dans cette culture et maintenant que j'y prête attention je constate à quel point c'est vrai, c'est flagrant. Maintenant je trouve ces scènes dans l'extrême majorité des cas inutiles artistiquement et malaisantes. Tous ceci est logé bien profondément dans tous les aspects de notre culture à tel point qu'on ne le voit même plus si l'on n'y prête pas attention. Heureusement cela change, avec le regard des femmes créatrices/artistes notamment mais quel long processus...
J'ai la même expérience avec la différence que je ne suis pas née en France (mais dans un pays où la culture des rapports genrés est encore plus toxique). Je me sens beaucoup plus à l'aise en général avec des hommes (et des femmes) anglo-saxon/nes parce qu'ils n'ont pas cette culture du tout. J'ai vécu presque toute ma vie en France mais ça continue à me choquer et j'ai beaucoup de mal à me sentir à l'aise et lier des relations romantiques avec des gens ayant grandi ici, sauf rares exceptions.
YES ! about the Sally Rooney book, I felt the same way about the sex scenes: at first they were extremely unconfortable / strange to read, afterwards I realized this - what you said - is how we should percive acts of love between two people in a relationship
As someone who did pretty much the opposite journey (a foreign guy who moved to France) - I don’t come from a very different culture and thought of France as being less sexist than my home country, but one of the things that stood out the most was looking at the behavior of some french in clubs - what in Portugal would be the most annoying guy in town seems like the average Jean in here. And foreign female friends confirmed that the “relou” type is indeed all over the place here. Interesting too see all the literary and cultural background for that paradox! As for the “self-fetishization”, guess it’s an universal experience. I was the international person back home, now I’m “the portuguese guy” in Paris. Complete with jokes about construction! Maybe it’s a way to stand out and/or to ground our identity in something familiar in a foreign environment. Maybe an interesting topic for a future video too :)
Your analysis videos are often the best, Alice! You seem to pay attention to every single detail that needs to be looked into more. Stay inspired, always.
@@AliceCappelle Boundaries are also for men a man should also have boundaries for a woman and a woman should also not complain about a man having boundaries
I'm from Barcelona (city) and I lived in Strasbourg for a while (although what I'm going to say now also happened to me in Paris). I found very -for lack of better word- interesting the differences I noticed regarding street harassment and female response between Spain and France and would love an insight on that if anyone has any. Here in Spain, it is relatively common for guys to catcall women in the street but they rarely-ever follow you home. Spanish women mostly ignore them or, in case we are fed up, insult them in response and go back to our lifes after that short interchange. What I found to be very alarming in France is the amount of guys that would follow you around while still talking to you regardless of you ignoring them or blatantling letting them know you were not interested. I also found quite surprising that my french friends used to engage in conversation with them to argue (although in a total non-rude -and sometimes even subtly flirty- way) why they were allowed to wear short skirts and not be molested by men on the street (in a "leave me alone, i'm not interested" way, I mean)... which felt to me like encouraged them to keep talking and following us around. Any thoughts on this?
As a man in the United States there have been many conversations about consent when it comes to sex and intimacy. I have seen some comments on this already posted but I think what makes it difficult for Americans (not all obviously but many) is that our culture sees sex as something that should not be talked about in public or talked about very gently and infrequently. This makes it difficult for us to process this foundational change in the way love is portrayed and expressed in media and in life. I think until we as a culture become more comfortable talking about these things publicly and with our partners and remove the shame that is placed on us culturally for addressing it there is going to be much confusion and many problems moving forward. Very interesting video I learned so much from it. Thank you for making this.
I got an impression of many French films of the 50s, 60s and the 70s being about a triangle drama of two men trying to seduce the same woman or even openly competing which one would succeed in seducing her. The whole attitude of these films came across as there not being any true love or romance at all, just bored middle class people playing stupid relationship games. The Catherine Millet book was also strange. I didn't find her liberated in any way or even erotic. You see, there was no wider context to her sexual encounters. Not much family or friends or personal history when she was growing up. How did she end up living that way? There were no descriptions of her feeling truly horny before a night out having sex. I doubt if she felt any physical desire at all. It's like she just went to all those encounters like a dead fish. Does she have a self? A very strange book. If you have more background to her book and if she has given out more personal history in interviews, I would love you to explain her book in a wider context.
Recent videos from Tee Noir and F.D Signifier brought home to me that "seduction" isn't so much about the achievement of sexual satisfaction as it is meeting a masculine ideal - it's directed at "scoring" for status/esteem among other men or at the constructed male judge of masculine performance. So yeah, that's the sort of relationship game at work, with women not a partner, nor even a player, nor even a _prize_ but just a scoring token.
Im not often attracted to this kind of discussion because me and other people are not fully prepared to articulate our arguments and it almost always ends in a discussion about egos, but damn i got engaged on this video. The references, the way to articulate and the pace that every topic was touched is perfect. Really feel like i got a bit smarter and wiser with this one, amazing!
I have trouble to properly interpret subtle social clues in general. For someone like me, asking for permission to a woman is extremly helpful to be sure it doesn't become an unpleasant experience for her. But it feels like asking that question would make us look socially inept or break the 'flow' of the 'seduction game'. Yet I don't think it should immediatly be seen like that. So thank you for raising that point Alice!
Think of it in another perspective: Asking her that question ("May I kiss you?") with confidence and knowing/feeling that whether she says yes or no, you put your best effort out there in letting her know you are interested AND you care for her boundaries. You are being respectful, charming, and being mature no matter the answer. It takes practice, but one can get it eventually. Though I am talking through with personal experience ^^
@@foxdevilsadvocate8567 so basically men have to constantly tiptoe around a woman in order to make her feel comfortable 100% of the time but there's no responsibility for her to reciprocate
@@Vivi_9 Why not? I certainly expect a woman to have as much respect for a man's consent as a man is expected to have for a woman's. That's what true equality is.
@@Vivi_9 Dunno, the word 'they' in the sentence of 'but they don't' is working overtime because you've just generalised the behaviour of around half the human population without providing supporting evidence at the same time.
My experience as someone living in the Netherlands is similar to French love in some ways and similar to American love in others but national identity definitely plays a role in the approach of dating so Dutch dating is unique in it's own right. Generally our national identity is not to be romantic but almost the exact opposite, to be 'casual', practical and blunt. This casual dating style means most don't go on typical 'romantic dates' but choose a practical and casual setting instead, usually it's going out for coffee at a café, going for a walk or doing a fun but low-investment activity together (like going to the cinema, doing something sporty, going out for a beer at a bar or even just 'hanging out' at the home of one of the people involved). The problem that underlies our style of dating and 'love' is that it relies on a lack of expectations, actively downplaying romantic feelings and creating distance, harsh open rejection is also common. From what I have seen that means a lot of us have anxiety around dating, we don't want to be inefficient with our time, if we've gone on several dates with someone and the relationship doesn't progress into a sexual or romantic one usually that's just where the contact ends because people have no patience in the pursuit love. Rejection comes in a couple forms.. the examples I give here are the more 'polite' types of rejection people here implement (they don't include intentionally rude rejections): -Evasive: "I am busy with family/work/friends" -Friendzoning: "I don't think we'd be a good match for a relationship but we can be friends" (this usually results in no friendship or further contact of any kind) -Blunt rejection: "I'm not attracted to you" or "I don't think we want the same kind of relationship" These types of common rejection show how normal it is to create distance and a 'coldness' in dating here, people are fearful of openly discussing their feelings and try to maintain an air of 'casualness'. This of course doesn't mean that men don't overstep boundaries or objectify women, naked swimming for example is not as common here but not entirely unusual either, men then objectifying someone being naked or doing something with a practical purpose happens a lot, when called out they fall back on it being normal because 'normality' is essentially the highest good in the Netherlands. So if you were to speak out against something they then frame as normal you are left without a voice still despite of how blunt our society is. I think part of that also has to do with it being more acceptable for men to be blunt or harsh in communication and expecting women to be less blunt, so although our type of heterosexual dating/romance is very blunt and 'practical' it is still hard to navigate. Women rejecting men is often met with reactions of her 'being a bitch', men's rejection of women is often viewed as righteous. In the same breath it is also expected for men to always remain cool and distant when dating, if he becomes emotionally involved too early that is met disgust but sexual expression is expected. So when a man compliments a woman he's dating here he's more likely to make a relatively blunt sexually tinted compliment and that is often appreciated, when a man makes a compliment that is emotionally loaded or 'too romantic' (something like "I wish we could watch the stars together") that is generally seen as uncomfortable, overbearing or even 'weak'.
@@vivvy_0 I think people are definitely dating a lot less than they used to, I know I definitely am not dating as much and my friends don't really seem to go on dates too much either, and since covid it's less in general. Nobody wants to waste their time basically.
I like your channel and I specially liked this video. I'm a Latin American woman living in France (for the last 14 years) and going through love, relationships and friendships in France as a foreigner has been quite an experience. From somewhat "global" spaces in which people of different origins meet and exchange to the feeling of being an outsider looking in while insiders do their thing, I've seen things evolve quite a bit, and see how much it communicates with dialogues happening outside of France. Also loved the references to Mona Chollet and Les Couilles sur La Table. :)
I love being French and understanding everything you say. What I love about french cinema is not being afraid to show sex as love and not sex as a detached performance.
I can remember watching my friends date guys that were just not worth the time. The relationship didn't seem to bring them joy and I resolved that I would not invest myself in someone who didn't add value to my life. This meant several years of being single and I learned alot about myself in the mean time. My boyfriend of 3 years now is the love of my life and I am thankful that I avoided binding myself to the wrong person (couple of friends wither married or had children with their boyfriends and those relationships dissolved after a couple years). The thing that is best about this relationship is that I don't have to try to be anyone. If I could impart any advice to anyone worrying about settling down it is to stay true to yourself and becoming the best version of yourself. You'll meet someone who likes you as you are and that makes falling in love painless. I should mention, I'm 37 and American (USA). 😊
I particulary love one sentence you said about the meaning of backlash. It's not felt as a threat toward an individual but toward a collective identity. That's a great nugget to understand the conservative swing we experienced. //// Also I see a great quality gap between english speaker essayist on TH-cam and french ones. Too bad you're not making videos in french to increase the level of this side of the TH-cam map !
its true that we have to UNlearn a lot before we can form new ideas of love and seduction, because the cringe feeling around vocal consent exists in real life as well, and i have find myself hesitating -- not just to vocalise my consent but to talk about what i want, sexual or otherwise. its not really love if its not what we want
I did a thesis on Éric Rohmer’s The Green Ray (1986). After watching this video, it’s interesting to look back at that film in terms of French love. It contains Rohmer’s best female protagonist who comes across as a helpless romantic who struggles to engage with people after a recent breakup during the French holidays. The protagonist, Delphine is clearly a romantic in how her romantic ideals enter the narrative through close ups of tarot cards and the infiltration of an original score in an offbeat fashion in an otherwise naturalistic cinéma vérité film. Its a romantic film, but the character struggles with loneliness induced by yearning. She mentions how she dislikes mens’ performance of love, when their goal is sex. We see this conveyed painfully and truthfully when two men try to pick her up and a more flirtatious friend. She naturally finds (what we see as) her true love at a train station near the end of the film. The phenomenon of her falling in love mirrors the natural phenomenon of the green ray itself. Great video.
Omg I’ve found my people - bless this video for bringing together this community of French cinema watchers. Sounds like an interesting thesis too btw. Did you study film?
@@alenanela1743 Aye thanks. I’m always pleased to see a Rohmer fan where I can find them. Yeah I studied film practice; unfortunately during Covid. I hope to adopt his aesthetic for my own short films.
Idk why but in South Asia, Urdu (not to say other languages in the region are a problem) is the closest to being stereotyped as the language of love that French is seen on most occasions. There’s this stereotype that Urdu poetry is all about randomly thrown words about superficial notions of love.
Perhaps I can help shed some light on your question. Urdu as language developed primarily through poetry (and often with the singing and dancing of mystics) performed simultaneously in the Royal court, where Persian was the main language, and on the streets where a sort of pre-Hindi language was dominant. These mystics fused a sort of divine love between man and universe/God, and a more earthly human love between well man and woman mainly. Since their own tradition heavily emphasized singing and dancing and losing oneself in this love as a way of connection with the universe, there is a whole lexicon of these out of mind, out of body, otherworldly experiences of intense emotion and love in Urdu. Et donc il y a une profondeur et une force d'émotion en Urdu qui est vraiment émouvante.
Great topic choice! I feel that most of us are confused about what love is, what it looks like and how to act when in love. I guess there is a place for diverse ideals of romance, and we shouldn't really try to define love and what it looks like in action because it will always be different for everyone. Just learn to take responsibility for your actions
spot on! and how i always felt that traditional "french love" & seduction & game is toxic... only if more people especially woman could get it now and understand how boring is good!
Wow, the part about asking for consent being seeing as cringe really got me because I'm always very worried by that and I'm scared to misread signs so i always ask to make sure and both men and women laughed at me for being like that. I was confused like how do you expect other people to know exactly what you want or don't want without clear communication 😭
If women want men to respect consent, then they need to be ok with some men asking for consent even if she might find that cringe or social inept or that it ruins the mood somehow. Women cannot expect men to be mind readers. Don't ever let a woman make you feel bad for asking for consent. They need to make that shit clear or else less and less men are gonna wanna put up with the ambiguity and possible risks of guessing wrong.
I think there is actually something missing without a relationship in which you can be sure that someone else cares for your well being in once life. So I agree.
Much of the self love, i think, should be focus more on building confidence in one’s worth and setting strong boundaries to understand what should and what should not be accepted in partner. Why it is turning into lonely/alone = strong and independent equation, i dont know!!! And it is also so funny how feminist are often accuse of being “Man hater” 🤣🤣🤣 No one says that to a man, that they hate women when much of the sexual assault and violence are done by them - Every thing done by them are somehow understood in terms of being “sexual” or “harmonal” or “psycho” or “criminal” (something that is anomaly and out of standard and not the pervasive pattern of our culture! )
Are you kidding me? Men get called out all the fucking time for saying hateful things about women! And also, they get accused of hating women if they say something even mildly critical of women. Whereas women are given A LOT more grace and freedom to say hateful things about men. And when men complain about this, they are more likely to get dismissed by others. Your claim is the exact opposite of the truth.
Edit: I have to emphasize my experience with "French romance" is maybe a new form, the French men I come across are from the younger generation (34 years old and younger, though some are a little older) brought up by some pretty feminist women and from what I've seen are very respectful and understand consent. Maybe the older generations are much different, maybe it's just the group of people I know Maybe the stereotypes are true, maybe they're not. But all I know is that when I started dating then eventually married my Frenchie, the version I was introduced to through my partner and while observing the our French friends in relationships, it was definitely completely foreign to me in that it wasn't how I was used to in my environment back in California, nor was it like the way the French present it in films. It was something completely different from both. And of course I don't want to put all French people in a box, it's just my observations from the people I've known and seen. Of the people I've seen they tend to be fiercely loyal when bonds are made, I personally haven't yet seen anyone date more than one person at the same time (one person in our friend group that now lives in the States admitted he'd tried the US version of dating and said he couldn't handle it at all, said it was too stressful, you can't get to know anyone at all that way, and switched back to just dating one person at a time), nor have their been rumors or and outing of any one cheating or having a lover on the side (that part does happen though in France, one friend's parents got divorced because of cheating). One part of the French version of dating I found was that you never have to have "the talk" like how we do in most Anglophone cultures (you know, the discussion of whether or not you're official and exclusive and can call each other boyfriend or girlfriend, that talk, I don't think it exists in French dating culture). As for romantic gestures, I have no idea, lol, since it's a person by person thing, my partner is a very pda type with me, very handsy, lol, his friends admitted to me they weren't sure if he was like that because they'd never seen this behavior in him before he met me, lol, but of our other friends it looks no different than in other cultures, not strongly one way or the other.
I love how you talked about the cringe feeling connected with an overly active form of consent. This speaks loudly to how we've been taught to view intimacy. Overcoming this has been really important in my relationships, as I've felt the reality of being seen and valued in communication
This is very fascinating. There's a lot I can respond to but i will just start out by saying that my first introduction to French wave was the film 37 Le Matin where the very first scene was the two leads having a ... graphic time in bed. So it was very male gaze-y depending how you look at it I suppose. I was also reminded of the notion of "the fall" as in to "fall in love" like it's sometning tragic, it's interesting how both the French and English culture sees love as a tragedy yet we somehow continue to perpetuate chase and pursuit of the woman's body and attention. I also remember a time when I lived near a college roommate who would often make rape-y comments when female bodies are shown on screen and I find myself feeling a bit uncomfortable. Like yes, we are men, we have eyes, but I'm able to sense the difference between aesthetic enjoyment and toxic gazing. These thoughts are probably not coherent but that's how your video resonated with me!
Interesting part when you mentioned "fall in love" and connected it with "the fall" in a tragic sense. I never thought about that! Also, I suppose the difference between aesthetic enjoyment and toxic gazing is that for one, it is about DOMINANCE and disregard of the individual while in the other, it is an appreciation of the ... I guess, lust? sensation? that stirs within the body from a particular presence. I flipped the words with their definitions, but you know what I mean.
I can totally relate to the being a "foreigner in another land", acting up the stereotypes cause it's a bit more alluring, exotic, and...predictable? At least, being an American in another country, I could "stretch" the inner city slang here and there, just because it is a reference for others to latch onto (though online dating was...not the best xD). However, over time, I sort of realize that I am trying to conform myself to someone else's ideals instead of my own ideals and that if I want to talk about feminism or racism in the work place, others want to look at me strangely, well... that's their bag. As far as that one dude trying to say that America has an issue with sex because people reacted strangely with his daughter getting naked...yeesh. Well, I mean, yeah, the U.S. does have an issue with Sex and Violence (which I'll have to read essays on but through personal experience, in the U.S.'s eyes: Violence Good, Sex Bad...unless it is very specific, hetero, and for the male gaze) but to use that scene to justify the actions of a "seducer" as being more free than the states... Like, damn. Though with these scandals coming out about these politicians and what they are doing, their "Golden Age" is coming to an end. Plus, I am curious about French Romantic media coming out this decade, if there will be more films that showcase relationships in an actual healthy way rather than how people outside the country "assume" French romance is.
There is a French film called portrait of a lady on fire. It's a slow burn romance about a painter and someone going to get married. I would also read the interviews with the director, as she talks a lot about the rise of desire, equality among women, and the female gaze.
This is so much like in Canada, I feel like people believe through Hollywood movies that finding love is important, that we need to have that charming man, and that the guy should be the one to first make the moves. Coming out as a queer women has been so gorgeously refreshing because consent is present, there isn’t that odd pressure of seduction and it feels so homey and caring. Even casual dating just felt so right. 🤷♀️
I remember watching À Bout de Souffle and feeling so uncomfortable by Jean Seberg’s character’s relationship with Belmondo’s that it made me reflect on how could it be that it was something accepted and expected of people at the time. Watching french new wave made me reflect a lot on how I have treated the women in my life in the past and breathing a sigh of relief. My goal has been to learn directly from women on how to be a better man not only for them, but for society at large. Relationships on french new wave films have made me very uncomfortable more often than not. Amazing video as always, merci!
Interesting. I'm a german woman, living in France since my late teens. I think in my culture, women are confortable with their bodies and nudity, with a healthy pinch of feminism. France, dating here and watching relations around me though has me speechless. I don't consider this being a sexual liberation like I grew up with in Germany, but a feeling of being taken advantage of, for one other party's desire. So many coworkers who cheat on their SO, and even with their workplace colleagues, which has me puzzled. I like being a flirtatious person, but know my boundaries, and I can't even be that person at my workplace because it lands me a male coworkers hand on my butt. When I told my female coworkers about this irresponsable and rude behavior, they just laughed, yeah coming from XY it doesn't surprise them. No one was shocked or worried for my well being, having been in a full blown panic on how I will defend myself against that man if noone is at the office at that time-where does it start, where does it end if my offended demeanor doesn't deter a potential abuser. Dating men, same thing, I'm their object of desire, but besides toxic behaviors, can't give me the security and comfort of a loving, healthy relationship. I feel that even though younger generations aren't as flirty as their older counterparts, they grow into eventually. My theory is that the lack of religious studies during school years may play a role, since in germany religious studies are a must in school and subtle american influences in our culture since the world war. All of this to say... Looking to settle down in my future, I don't think I can stay in France, this french "love" is too toxic and flakey for my taste, there's more to a relationship than to be desired... :/
"Looking to settle down in my future, I don't think I can stay in France, this french "love" is too toxic and flakey for my taste, there's more to a relationship than to be desired... :/ " Komm nach Spanien, die Dinge hier haben sich wirklich zum Besseren gewendet. :)
About a year ago I decided to start broadening the horizons of TH-cam creators I watched to get different perspectives than classic white men. This has really become not just my favorite one of those channels but my favorite channel entirely. Your perspective is so different from mine I consistently find myself challenged in my own way of being. Our understanding of French love here in the US is very performative and as someone that has desired to be romantic I've found myself questioning how I have been in the past and how I would change that for the future because of this. The French aesthetic is very prominent in American romance and so it's very interesting getting a chance to really analyze it.
Funnily enough, I read through Denis Diderot‘s Jaques le fataliste in the last couple of days and it is full of very questionable sexual relations (rape, deception, extortion etc.) that are passed of as a joke. It is a great book full of wit, but I really didn‘t like these parts.
This has genuinely changed my perception of a lot of my all time favourite films which happen to be French Nouvelle Vague. Jules et Jim is one of my favourite films of all time, a love triangle, that back and forths with platonic love, romantic love, sexual love, sexual obsession and romantic obsession, as well as sincere and caring love. But in the end, Catherine, the protagonist, loses her mind and kills herself and her husband in a paroxysm of overwhelming love, need and fear of abandonment. She was also characterised as being promiscuous in general, and the film did well to detach the notion of love from other factions of romance like sex, friendship, sincerity and happiness. But in the end, she was the villianous aftermath of three people, two of the men whom were just as obsessed with her as much as she was with them. The negative conotations of that didn't quite dawn on me until I saw it on this alternative perspective from the considerations explored on this video. I still love Jules et Jim, I think as a film buff it's an essential watch, but it certainly has its bitterness. that said, I think you're beautiful Alice. I think you're beautiful.
One of your best videos so far! I love (pun intended) when you focus on french debates around social norms and its critique since its rare to find and hear for non-french speakers!
I am Argentinian and I haven't ever ever gotten the "french way of loving". First I thought that maybe I was too young, later that it was my catholic upbringing, but reciently I watched "Les choses qu'on dit, les choses qu'on fait (2020)" and "Les jours où je n'existe pas (2002)" and it just hit me: French people justify every transgression with the concept of love. Everything becomes grandiuos, poetic, ethereal even if "love" accompanies it. Is like they don't act in the name of anything (honor, liberty, whatever) else.
The web series Skam France is currently airing a season where the protagonist experienced date rape by her boyfriend, and it's handled surprisingly well!
Thanks for the great video! The ending points about self love being important but not the only form of fulfilling love and how real “true” love is out of care were really impactful. I recently found your channel and have enjoyed the content, keep up the great work!
I was explicitly raised by my mother to look at women and judge them based on my sexual attraction to them. At least in my case, the male gaze is not something i was somehow born with but i was trained and retrained in it my entire childhood. And it was largely enforced by my mother. I was always creeped out by her behaviour but thanks to your discussion, i am feeling much better knowing that many women in power are on board enforcing and enjoying the 'benefits' of the male gaze. Sometimes, it is hard to deal with how these gross and selfish people contribute so much to the suffering of others for their own benefit. Isn't that the definition of evil? To benefit from causing suffering? Thanks for the illuminating discussion! Much love!
I would argue that it's less that women in power enjoy the "benefits" of the male gaze and more than they have been trained by society to accept it and to see the objectification of their bodies (and themselves) as normal, and then continue to enforce it on others - kinda like how parents who hit their kids sometimes say "well, my parents hit me as well and I turned out okay!".
@@mac8697 I do not have any reason to disagree. It could also be deformed preferences from societal pressures. I am sure there are many more factors involved in producing the phenomenon. I had hoped to point out that biases towards the status quo and other system biases tend to operate as ego-serving reinforcing cognitive patterns. But i would like to know what your reasons are for your conclusion? Usually an argument has reasons, not just asserting the conclusion. I am particularly interested in how you can measure which factor is more at play. It would typically be an empirical study based on self-reports and i would love to find that sort of research.
@@rkmh9342 Sorry if I came across as confrontational, I actually agree with your main point about the male gaze being something that's thaught/learned and was hoping to provide a woman's pov on the issue (which fits your self-report argument). The way I see it, women who subject to the status-quo of being objectified and treated as an object of desire are granted certain privileges (e.g. social power) while being denied of their personhood. All in all I think both of the factors we've brought up come into play, but since the so-called benefits of subjecting to the male gaze come with a cost, the only reason we subjugate ourselves/others is because we've been trained to accept it and not question it.
@@mac8697 I think i was the one who comes across as confrontational 😏this issue is that you keep trying to say that "the only reason we subjugate ourselves/others is b/c we've been trained to accept it and not question it." and that is false. Not all women subjugate women for only that reason. Some people are evil and enjoy causing suffering in order to benefit. Some evil people are women. I was raised by one. And i am sure there are others, since the world is basically on fire and there are all these people fanning the flames? Much love! and sorry for the confrontational tone, been used to men trying to be all sensitive and shit by saying all women are nice when some women are awful. Some women help pedophiles, right? Damn, some women are pedophiles.
I can relate to your comments about self-fetishization to some extent. Americans have a weird obsession with Italians (The Godfather, the Sopranos) and sometimes it’s explicitly sexual (“Italian” is of one of the top 10 most frequent terms in erotica novels). What’s strange to me though is how much more sex positive and yet more sexually conservative European culture is when you compare it to the US aka the land of porn and abstinence-only sex ed…
As an American living in Texas I can understand. I live in one of the most conservative states in the US and a lot of people around here are into some really crazy stuff. I want to know why it's like that here.
Comme toujours cette vidéo est un régal de réflexion, de références à creuser et d'infos. La touche d'humour que tu mets de plus en plus (ou alors c'est moi qui n'avait pas remarqué ça dans les premières vidéos) est justement dosée : de quoi faire sourire mais sans prendre le pas sur le propos. Et l'arrière plan est très bien décoré ! Avalanche de compliments presque gênante mais je suis en spm alors je suis un peu cheesy 😊
It's a matter of being used to habits and routine performances. I myself had to rethink a lot about how to approach love and what to love at all. But as you mentioned in your video about positive masculinity, it always stems back to practicing naive care and love, that is not tainted by pre-determined character archetypes and instead develop a shared framework that is made by oneself and their partner.
Tu es ma TH-camr préférée. Je te remercie pour ta opinion. J'espère que tu passes une bonne semaine. Oui, j'ai aussi apprécié la chance de pratiquer de parler le français.
unromatic love extends beyond the human, too. we can love our places and the way they allow the folx we also love to exist. because existance is necessarily suffering (i think of the neighborhood i recently moved where gun violence is rampant and police disregard for human life is the best of the worst), the love and sense of place i held for the space i occupied ran concurrent with the people who habitated this place historically. me/we/us happened to also choose to extend love and acceptance for me/we/us and this produced some of the most profound examples I've personally witnessed of radical acceptance, self expression, and a building up of the systemically torn down parts of our city. this isn't a romantic retelling of the hood- the connection between extreme violence and the tolerance, love, acceptance, and generosity within a community is unfortunate and also positive. i know this comment may appear off topic, but it is not. sense of place is critical, too, in understanding not only culture but also the way we relate, desire relation, and the building/destruction of community.
Très belle extrait de Baudelaire dans l'intro! Je me suis interesser a tout ce qui est commentary youtube ya un moment et je t'ai découvert. J'adore tes concepts et vidéos!
I can't remember the last time I rewatched a video as soon as I finished. Good job Alice! This resonates so much with me as the concept of "mexican love" has so many toxic traits in its traditionality. They "older guy" perspective you describe is still very prevalent in Mexico, even in younger people, unfortunately. But each year more people become aware of how harmful and, like you said, self sabbotage triggering this behaviour is (especially in heterosexual relationships!). Even girls in comedy and switching the narrative by making fun of this kind of guys. This is very parasocial but althought I know you and I are strangers, watching your videos feel like talking to a long time friend. Smart, funny and really bright. Thank you! 🌟
I just read a very interesting short story from the 1950s by John Wyndham called Consider Her Ways. It touched a lot on the desperation of women to find love etc etc. I'd recommend it - keen to hear other people's views on it. Especially since it's from the 1950s
I came across your page tonight, and you have inspired a new chapter of my life- I know you seriously advocate reading books and I agree but also your content is a modern day book and such a valuable resource and I just wanted to say that in case you didn’t know :)
I watched this video a few weeks ago, and I'm still thinking about it. There's a really interesting episode of Maintenance Phase, a podcast about challenging diet culture and anti-fatness, about the 2004 book "French Women Don't Get Fat." The author, Mireille Guiliano, dives into these insane ways to become thin "the French way." She also outlines why French women have a unique cultural pressure to be a certain weight/look a certain way because of what Alice covers in the video.
Attracting toxic relationships is not meant to destroy your life; It's meant for some to come help you clear your path. 💙TH-camr That Helps People Overcome Toxic Relationships
personally, i don’t think that the films of la nouvelle vague may be the best example for the point you were trying to make, because we were actually given another pov at the time as that period was marked by some prominent female directors like agnès varda and chantal akerman, who also potrayed love and romance in their work, not only from a female but also a feminist persepctive. and even the films by male directors - especially those of godard, were filled with political commentary and satire, so they’re far too nuanced to simply be labelled as “the male gaze”. but anyways, interesting video as always!
Alice, I discovered your chanel a few days ago and I love it. Your videos are very educational. I am amazed how smart you are. Greetings from Croatia. ❤❤❤
What remains ideal in the French portrayals of romance, passion, authenticity of emotion, inhibition and frankness around sexuality can remain without elements of objectification, sexism and aggression. It's like people can't calibrate or be imaginative about culture and how flexible it actually is. Culture has never been static but people love to ossify it because it makes them comfortable and continues their role in it, often a position of power (for those with it). I certainly don't want a monoculture either. Americanization isn't desirable and I hate the way dating and romance are understood in the US. It's often that romance can be transactional, dry, too pragmatic, self focused and strange around intimacy. Of course, not all relationships are like the cultural understanding of them. Cultural ideals and baselines are in the imagination and habits of their people, it's not like every individual prescribes to it. Yet, I find this thread of transactionalism common in the US. Passion and especially the expression of it in unabashed ways is extremely uncomfortable for many Americans. The unsaid understanding is that strong emotions in romantic relationships are dangerous, possessive and cringe. Particularly in the early stages of intimacy. That casual, "oh we are just fooling around" creates it's own outlets for toxicity and explorative sexuality. Not always but enough to where it's a cultural meme.
isn't it better to get to know eachother more to see if a relationship works out before full on jumping into sex and such? unless you just search for a one night stand 🤷♀️
Yo the comment about self-fetishizashitzashion is an interesting one. I know it's not really the point of this video, but as an American who moved to Europe I found myself doing much the same thing (usually without even thinking). Changing behavior, specific fashion style, accent, all that. Don't think I've read anything about it before, but there could be something there. Too lazy to google it though. Super vidéo comme toujours ^^
I'll second this. That time I went to the US for some postgrad stuff actually made my English accent closer to the RP one (the BBC News anchor accent, basically). I'm not sure I even did it consciously, but now I wonder if there isn't a part of self-fetishization in it. (At one point, it was rarefied enough when I was chatting in the campus bus that several other people were glancing back to see who's speaking. That made me realise how my accent had morphed)
Your video reminds me of the book by Albert Cohen, Belle du seigneur, a relationship with an unheard violence depicted as one the most beautiful love story. Well done Alice !
The first thing I thought when I heard “L’amour a la Française” was Jean Dujardin on OSS117 and how he’s like a self satire of it and representations of French men
Ma vidéo préférée so far !!! C'est vraiment très bien articulé, les arguments et comment tu les confrontes. Tu sais qu'on est d'accord là dessus ! (+ contente que le livre te serve de source!!) ❤️
Thank you for your time, Here is my perspective coming from a puritan culture. Puritanism, (in this context) a patriarchical culture that is afraid of sex. My grandmother was forced to keep on bringing children. Whilst she was a citizen of the french commonwealth, but she bismillah al wahid still had to birth disciples for God. Bismillah al wahid (alrakman), in the name of the one God (the Mercifull) Sex in this culture is viewed as the mechanical act of reproducing. Love is to be expressed only to ones children or students. In fact, sexual education in this culture is borderline abuse. The teaching does not explain anything other than 'sex' is bad, and that God is wrathfull (revenge) to the immoral. These days there is a don't ask don't tell policy in place. But still, not teaching how consent works and even undermining it, togheter with repression makes abuse commonplace and victims shunned. Repression: forcing someone to push away his/her sexual desires and the shaming of sexuality. We now understand the motivations of sexual reformers over the ages. Even in Europe sex was stigmatised for the entire middle and industrial ages. However, we do need to keep in mind that this puritan culture is right below our noses. In churches, mosques, synagogues,temples ETC. Yes, right now there are teenagers and even young adults who don't know what sex is. And they live here, in the west. We can help, by supporting free education centers, homeless shelters, drug rehabilitation facilities ETC. I tried to talk about this issue with my local community, and am shunned by it. Luckely I have a supportive family. sincerely.
I admire marlon brando for several things he did in his life but the one scandal that made me think less of him, is the rumor behind a highly controversial sex scene in "...Last tango in paris..." Excellent video by the way, intruiging and thought provoking.
I think playing with stereotypes is a form of making situations or people to easily fit into an understandable type, so we do not ned to think further. Being a German American places certain stereotypes onto me which may or may not be true. Maybe the real concern is spending more time in understanding who a person truly is would be better. As for love, I always go back to Eich Fromm's book The Art of Loving. Your comment on caring I feel fits into his ideas.
When I was a young teen/young adult (late '70s-early '80s) men would give a compliment while passing on the street. The woman (it was usually a woman) would just smile and walk on. That was the extent of the exchange: someone would give a compliment, someone would smile in acknowledgement. Period. Nowadays, giving a smile is interpreted as an invitation, the man will follow you, and then will get angry when you give him the brush off. It's as if these men have forgotten how to "read the room".
I would be curious to know more about the French anti-americanization movement that you briefly touched on. American media and the English language have such a strong presence in my life that I feel like I don't know my own country's culture anymore and I fear that this will become more common. It also annoys me how prevalent English words are when people discuss topics such as self-care, gaming, movies and identity politics on the internet. It gives me the feeling that nothing they say comes from their own thoughts, but is instead just mindlessly regurgitated from what Americans told them.
I'm Spanish and I feel a little bit the same way. I think we're still in the process of assimilating the new vocabulary and, as we do so, we'll learn to apply it to our own cultural contexts.
@@mac8697 But do we need that vocabulary? As Alice pointed out, French movies stereotypes are basically mostly stereotypes. In real life, the French romanticism is pretty rare, not that common or exists in some specific spheres, so are the toxic behaviors. In my opinion, we shouldn't use the American way of seeing things to label other cultures.
@@Cloudyvi Because we need words to describe the stuff that happens to us, and borrowings are a millenia-long linguistic occurrence. That doesn't mean that the concept doesn't change or is modified depending on the culture that uses it. It's just easier to borrow a word and then figure out how it applies to you than it is to make up a whole new one from scratch. Edit: I agree with your point that we shouldn't directly apply the American way of seeing to other cultures! But I believe we can take words that are useful for us and use them in ways that are meaningful in relation to our way of life.
Super vidéo, en tant que Français je trouve aussi qu'il est grand temps de se débarrasser de cette approche cliché et dommageable de l'amour et du rapport amoureux. Coucou de Belgique!
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I love that you talked about how there’s nothing more attractive than people who care about people and things around them. The trope of a ‘Bad Boy who hates everyone except for Me’ is so toxic and propagates a certain possessiveness in relationships that people even begin to expect. Looking beyond the selfishness of seduction is so important for us to be kinder to our partners
Yea and some men(and women) forget that it’s just a tv trope, it’s not supposed to be real or a personality trait because at the end of the day it’s a made up, one-dimensional character trope that only works on screen. It really doesn’t work in real life.
@@user-hl1ct3yh1r yep, sometimes it doesn't even work on screen lol
Bad boy being kind to you and not everyone else is literally a fake guy who kind to you for certain things. And also let's say someone like that exists then it's extremely rare that you won't even find someone like that.
That is so true. And what is really important is that they do not only care about you but really care about the people in their life to be a caring person
Just wanted to add this: some people might come off as the nihilistic angry bad boy type because they're sensitive people that also care but they are disillusioned with things, they are burned out. That's what happened to me. I love living things I love animals and nature, art and music, I've spent a lot of time volunteering at animal shelters, when I see a homeless family it is enough to ruin my day sometimes. I am an artist and I'm extremely sensitive yet thanks to living an a major metropolitan area in the United States I hate most people. I feel like the masses here, the culture here is literally destroying what I love and that makes me hate them. A part of me will be glad to say good riddance once the big nuclear exchange between the west and east happens. Life hardens people no one is born a nihilist.
Alice, your reaction to the Felix constantly asking for consent being cringe reminds me a sexual ed class where a classmate balked at the idea of being asked to be kissed. I remember being a very confused 13 year old boy because I was being taught to always ask for consent, but this girl had just proclaimed that sort of behavior unattractive.
I think it can be tough (not impossible) for inexperienced men who are attempting perform traditional masculinity in romantic and sexual settings, but also want to respect their partners. There's a constant balancing act between assertively taking what's "yours" and respecting your partner.
Girls also grow up in a culture of toxic masculinity, where they are taught* that a "real man" behaves in XYZ ways. Many girls can see how it is harmful, but many don't. For some, it takes growing up, or a bad experience to learn that perhaps the type of masculinity they were taught* to be right, was never right.
*Taught = taught perhaps in school but also by the social environment, family, friends, media
Yep, gender norms are held up by everyone! Discussing these things can really help both parties unlearn a lot
If someone does not want to be asked to consent to X but does want X, they'd be better off volunteering their enthusiastic consent to X rather than hoping someone offers exactly X without consent being exchanged. On the male end, being expected to be slipshod about consent is a real turn-off, among worse things.
Its also helpful to contextualize her claim as her own personal boundaries. She is one person-for her this is her boundary, her consent. Other people might not like that, then it is not consensual for them. Consent is like a discussion of personal boundaries and mindfulness about what one is actually comfortable doing.
Sad part is this will never change. The burden of performance and leadership will always be on the men even in modern dating. Relationships are still about power dynamics and balancing our biological instincts with being civilized and morally upstanding. It’s exhausting sometimes and is why dating for men feels like a job interview and dating for women is like shopping.
In India, mostly mainstream movies, tends to give none to little voice in terms of, what she (Female lover) expects out of love or relationship, it is usually the male counterpart whose views on love and expectations are resonated, much of a time, fuelled by already dominated stereotypes if not mostly.
The cultural impact of these movies is seen, in how mostly people expect love to be.The hyperfeminity (premodelled, and hyperperfected one), the lack of concern to her opinion, her life just revolving around her lover, is still dominantly existing.People are ofc becoming aware and critical to these representation, but the subtle presense of these expectation in the psyche of people is still prevalent.
I remember being told by a guy like how It have been easy to love, if there was no feminism because basically the girl wouldn't have had a problem with his anger issues or wouldnt repulse to his anger without 'feminism' and then there would be no problems in his love relationship. Like he assumed that girls in general were okay, with anything bestowed in the name of love or along with love because that's what he has been exposed to (ofc there are more layers to this behaviour but media representation do project and reinforce this). We are not friends btw not anymore.
And Bollywood has a problem with stereotyping women into a) the westernised narcissistic sexy nags b) the tomboy/strong and not-like-other girls c) the ‘relatable’, ‘funny’, quirky’ and ‘goofy’ one and d) the submissive shy, introvert, respectful, traditional and cultural girls. And they make men more relatable than the women in Bollywood, even in South Asian cartoons
Yes
I am Indian as well and unfortunately I had the same experience. One of my guy friends explained how feminism is ruining the dating pool for men. Like we are sorry we (women) are becoming aware of idiots like you. I loved your take on this.
Omg remember the toxicity during the arjun reddy time?
@@theblob156 True, Apparently Women written by Men seems so unrelatable and lacks any conscience that you question what goes inside the head of the writer, though some of the women of Imtiaz Ali movies have still more shades than stereotypical one.
We humans are like onions. There are only layers, no core. If you strip all the layers, there's no 'inner self' left. Even while alone we still perform, in front of an imaginary audience, according to the fantasies and visions we have of ourselves. Our performances are our real and only selves. Life itself is a prolonged performance.
while I agree that much of life is performative, if even just for oneself, I wonder why you feel you can speak for all of us having no inner core/soul/essence. How would you know that you're not just extrapolating from your own, apparently core-less, experience?
unless the inner self is inevitably a hurt and sad child.
shrek moment
Nonetheless, performances can be on different layers. Maybe different cultures, genders and people express and expect love in a more explicitly performative way than others. And so love and displays of affection can either fall into more conscious or more involuntary performance modes.
you confuse humans with ogres
This was a /great/ video essay. As a Spanish person studying French, I've been pretty appalled by the mainstream anti-feminist discourse you find in popular newspapers in France. The "love is suffering" mindset really reminds me of the rhetoric we used to spouse until very recently at it hits home in a very uncomfortable way. It gives me hope to hear that young French people (both men and women) are actually much more pro-feminism than the media lets on.
Hello Alice. Je suis française mariée avec un Anglais et c'est lui qui m'a montré a quel point le cinéma français entretenait ces stéréotypes malsains. Il me dit souvent: "c'est facile de reconnaitre un film français il y aura toujours une scène où 2 personnes au moins s'engueulent sans raison apparente et/ou une scène où ils parlent de sexe de manière ouverte/inapproprié/malaisante ". Moi cela ne m'avait jamais choqué étant baignée dans cette culture et maintenant que j'y prête attention je constate à quel point c'est vrai, c'est flagrant. Maintenant je trouve ces scènes dans l'extrême majorité des cas inutiles artistiquement et malaisantes. Tous ceci est logé bien profondément dans tous les aspects de notre culture à tel point qu'on ne le voit même plus si l'on n'y prête pas attention. Heureusement cela change, avec le regard des femmes créatrices/artistes notamment mais quel long processus...
J'ai la même expérience avec la différence que je ne suis pas née en France (mais dans un pays où la culture des rapports genrés est encore plus toxique). Je me sens beaucoup plus à l'aise en général avec des hommes (et des femmes) anglo-saxon/nes parce qu'ils n'ont pas cette culture du tout. J'ai vécu presque toute ma vie en France mais ça continue à me choquer et j'ai beaucoup de mal à me sentir à l'aise et lier des relations romantiques avec des gens ayant grandi ici, sauf rares exceptions.
YES ! about the Sally Rooney book, I felt the same way about the sex scenes: at first they were extremely unconfortable / strange to read, afterwards I realized this - what you said - is how we should percive acts of love between two people in a relationship
As someone who did pretty much the opposite journey (a foreign guy who moved to France) - I don’t come from a very different culture and thought of France as being less sexist than my home country, but one of the things that stood out the most was looking at the behavior of some french in clubs - what in Portugal would be the most annoying guy in town seems like the average Jean in here. And foreign female friends confirmed that the “relou” type is indeed all over the place here. Interesting too see all the literary and cultural background for that paradox!
As for the “self-fetishization”, guess it’s an universal experience. I was the international person back home, now I’m “the portuguese guy” in Paris. Complete with jokes about construction!
Maybe it’s a way to stand out and/or to ground our identity in something familiar in a foreign environment.
Maybe an interesting topic for a future video too :)
I learnt french for 5 years and I can successfully say that I could not understand a thing in the poem without the subtitles
Your analysis videos are often the best, Alice! You seem to pay attention to every single detail that needs to be looked into more. Stay inspired, always.
HAHAHAHAHAHA love that you used a Johnny Depp picture while describing a man who thinks boundaries are unfair. Love that.
glad you noticed ahah
What did he say/do about boundaries?
@@AliceCappelle Just out of curiosity. Why did you use his picture? I seriously can't remember him saying anything in that direction.
@@adrianseanheidmann4559 because this wave of feminisn is about group think and backhanded passive aggressive humiliation to prove moral dominance.
@@AliceCappelle Boundaries are also for men a man should also have boundaries for a woman and a woman should also not complain about a man having boundaries
As a professor of French, I really appreciate this analysis. Very clear and relatable. Will definitely assign it in the near future.
I'm from Barcelona (city) and I lived in Strasbourg for a while (although what I'm going to say now also happened to me in Paris). I found very -for lack of better word- interesting the differences I noticed regarding street harassment and female response between Spain and France and would love an insight on that if anyone has any. Here in Spain, it is relatively common for guys to catcall women in the street but they rarely-ever follow you home. Spanish women mostly ignore them or, in case we are fed up, insult them in response and go back to our lifes after that short interchange. What I found to be very alarming in France is the amount of guys that would follow you around while still talking to you regardless of you ignoring them or blatantling letting them know you were not interested. I also found quite surprising that my french friends used to engage in conversation with them to argue (although in a total non-rude -and sometimes even subtly flirty- way) why they were allowed to wear short skirts and not be molested by men on the street (in a "leave me alone, i'm not interested" way, I mean)... which felt to me like encouraged them to keep talking and following us around. Any thoughts on this?
As a man in the United States there have been many conversations about consent when it comes to sex and intimacy. I have seen some comments on this already posted but I think what makes it difficult for Americans (not all obviously but many) is that our culture sees sex as something that should not be talked about in public or talked about very gently and infrequently. This makes it difficult for us to process this foundational change in the way love is portrayed and expressed in media and in life. I think until we as a culture become more comfortable talking about these things publicly and with our partners and remove the shame that is placed on us culturally for addressing it there is going to be much confusion and many problems moving forward. Very interesting video I learned so much from it. Thank you for making this.
"True love is care" - I love that sentiment
after falling in love in french, doing so in english just feels…subpar 😅😩
I got an impression of many French films of the 50s, 60s and the 70s being about a triangle drama of two men trying to seduce the same woman or even openly competing which one would succeed in seducing her. The whole attitude of these films came across as there not being any true love or romance at all, just bored middle class people playing stupid relationship games.
The Catherine Millet book was also strange. I didn't find her liberated in any way or even erotic. You see, there was no wider context to her sexual encounters. Not much family or friends or personal history when she was growing up. How did she end up living that way? There were no descriptions of her feeling truly horny before a night out having sex. I doubt if she felt any physical desire at all. It's like she just went to all those encounters like a dead fish. Does she have a self? A very strange book. If you have more background to her book and if she has given out more personal history in interviews, I would love you to explain her book in a wider context.
*cough cough* Jules et Jim
@@alenanela1743 Yup, good mind reading!
Recent videos from Tee Noir and F.D Signifier brought home to me that "seduction" isn't so much about the achievement of sexual satisfaction as it is meeting a masculine ideal - it's directed at "scoring" for status/esteem among other men or at the constructed male judge of masculine performance. So yeah, that's the sort of relationship game at work, with women not a partner, nor even a player, nor even a _prize_ but just a scoring token.
I’m loving the ‘La Vie En Rose’ background score chosen for the video.
same!!!
Am I the only who cheered when she mentioned bell hooks? Her books are real eyes opener recommended to all.
Im not often attracted to this kind of discussion because me and other people are not fully prepared to articulate our arguments and it almost always ends in a discussion about egos, but damn i got engaged on this video. The references, the way to articulate and the pace that every topic was touched is perfect. Really feel like i got a bit smarter and wiser with this one, amazing!
I have trouble to properly interpret subtle social clues in general. For someone like me, asking for permission to a woman is extremly helpful to be sure it doesn't become an unpleasant experience for her.
But it feels like asking that question would make us look socially inept or break the 'flow' of the 'seduction game'. Yet I don't think it should immediatly be seen like that. So thank you for raising that point Alice!
Think of it in another perspective: Asking her that question ("May I kiss you?") with confidence and knowing/feeling that whether she says yes or no, you put your best effort out there in letting her know you are interested AND you care for her boundaries. You are being respectful, charming, and being mature no matter the answer.
It takes practice, but one can get it eventually. Though I am talking through with personal experience ^^
@@foxdevilsadvocate8567 so basically men have to constantly tiptoe around a woman in order to make her feel comfortable 100% of the time but there's no responsibility for her to reciprocate
@@Vivi_9 Why not? I certainly expect a woman to have as much respect for a man's consent as a man is expected to have for a woman's. That's what true equality is.
@@Marewig that's the point I'm making, when do women ever do that? They should, but don't
@@Vivi_9 Dunno, the word 'they' in the sentence of 'but they don't' is working overtime because you've just generalised the behaviour of around half the human population without providing supporting evidence at the same time.
"The clothes disappear by themselves" omg! For every part of the clothes disappearing needs consent. So true.
My experience as someone living in the Netherlands is similar to French love in some ways and similar to American love in others but national identity definitely plays a role in the approach of dating so Dutch dating is unique in it's own right.
Generally our national identity is not to be romantic but almost the exact opposite, to be 'casual', practical and blunt.
This casual dating style means most don't go on typical 'romantic dates' but choose a practical and casual setting instead, usually it's going out for coffee at a café, going for a walk or doing a fun but low-investment activity together (like going to the cinema, doing something sporty, going out for a beer at a bar or even just 'hanging out' at the home of one of the people involved).
The problem that underlies our style of dating and 'love' is that it relies on a lack of expectations, actively downplaying romantic feelings and creating distance, harsh open rejection is also common. From what I have seen that means a lot of us have anxiety around dating, we don't want to be inefficient with our time, if we've gone on several dates with someone and the relationship doesn't progress into a sexual or romantic one usually that's just where the contact ends because people have no patience in the pursuit love.
Rejection comes in a couple forms.. the examples I give here are the more 'polite' types of rejection people here implement (they don't include intentionally rude rejections):
-Evasive: "I am busy with family/work/friends"
-Friendzoning: "I don't think we'd be a good match for a relationship but we can be friends" (this usually results in no friendship or further contact of any kind)
-Blunt rejection: "I'm not attracted to you" or "I don't think we want the same kind of relationship"
These types of common rejection show how normal it is to create distance and a 'coldness' in dating here, people are fearful of openly discussing their feelings and try to maintain an air of 'casualness'.
This of course doesn't mean that men don't overstep boundaries or objectify women, naked swimming for example is not as common here but not entirely unusual either, men then objectifying someone being naked or doing something with a practical purpose happens a lot, when called out they fall back on it being normal because 'normality' is essentially the highest good in the Netherlands.
So if you were to speak out against something they then frame as normal you are left without a voice still despite of how blunt our society is.
I think part of that also has to do with it being more acceptable for men to be blunt or harsh in communication and expecting women to be less blunt, so although our type of heterosexual dating/romance is very blunt and 'practical' it is still hard to navigate.
Women rejecting men is often met with reactions of her 'being a bitch', men's rejection of women is often viewed as righteous.
In the same breath it is also expected for men to always remain cool and distant when dating, if he becomes emotionally involved too early that is met disgust but sexual expression is expected.
So when a man compliments a woman he's dating here he's more likely to make a relatively blunt sexually tinted compliment and that is often appreciated, when a man makes a compliment that is emotionally loaded or 'too romantic' (something like "I wish we could watch the stars together") that is generally seen as uncomfortable, overbearing or even 'weak'.
how many people still date there? i can imagine many dont want to deal with this whole ordeal..
@@vivvy_0 I think people are definitely dating a lot less than they used to, I know I definitely am not dating as much and my friends don't really seem to go on dates too much either, and since covid it's less in general. Nobody wants to waste their time basically.
I like your channel and I specially liked this video. I'm a Latin American woman living in France (for the last 14 years) and going through love, relationships and friendships in France as a foreigner has been quite an experience. From somewhat "global" spaces in which people of different origins meet and exchange to the feeling of being an outsider looking in while insiders do their thing, I've seen things evolve quite a bit, and see how much it communicates with dialogues happening outside of France. Also loved the references to Mona Chollet and Les Couilles sur La Table. :)
I love being French and understanding everything you say. What I love about french cinema is not being afraid to show sex as love and not sex as a detached performance.
I can remember watching my friends date guys that were just not worth the time. The relationship didn't seem to bring them joy and I resolved that I would not invest myself in someone who didn't add value to my life. This meant several years of being single and I learned alot about myself in the mean time. My boyfriend of 3 years now is the love of my life and I am thankful that I avoided binding myself to the wrong person (couple of friends wither married or had children with their boyfriends and those relationships dissolved after a couple years). The thing that is best about this relationship is that I don't have to try to be anyone. If I could impart any advice to anyone worrying about settling down it is to stay true to yourself and becoming the best version of yourself. You'll meet someone who likes you as you are and that makes falling in love painless.
I should mention, I'm 37 and American (USA). 😊
I particulary love one sentence you said about the meaning of backlash. It's not felt as a threat toward an individual but toward a collective identity. That's a great nugget to understand the conservative swing we experienced.
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Also I see a great quality gap between english speaker essayist on TH-cam and french ones. Too bad you're not making videos in french to increase the level of this side of the TH-cam map !
its true that we have to UNlearn a lot before we can form new ideas of love and seduction, because the cringe feeling around vocal consent exists in real life as well, and i have find myself hesitating -- not just to vocalise my consent but to talk about what i want, sexual or otherwise. its not really love if its not what we want
I did a thesis on Éric Rohmer’s The Green Ray (1986). After watching this video, it’s interesting to look back at that film in terms of French love. It contains Rohmer’s best female protagonist who comes across as a helpless romantic who struggles to engage with people after a recent breakup during the French holidays. The protagonist, Delphine is clearly a romantic in how her romantic ideals enter the narrative through close ups of tarot cards and the infiltration of an original score in an offbeat fashion in an otherwise naturalistic cinéma vérité film.
Its a romantic film, but the character struggles with loneliness induced by yearning. She mentions how she dislikes mens’ performance of love, when their goal is sex. We see this conveyed painfully and truthfully when two men try to pick her up and a more flirtatious friend. She naturally finds (what we see as) her true love at a train station near the end of the film. The phenomenon of her falling in love mirrors the natural phenomenon of the green ray itself.
Great video.
I've watched that movie countless times. It's one of my favorite Rohmers:)
I will always defend Rohmer, a product of his time indeed, but as an artist and also as a man, I think his reputation can still stand.
Omg I’ve found my people - bless this video for bringing together this community of French cinema watchers. Sounds like an interesting thesis too btw. Did you study film?
@@alenanela1743 Aye thanks. I’m always pleased to see a Rohmer fan where I can find them. Yeah I studied film practice; unfortunately during Covid. I hope to adopt his aesthetic for my own short films.
@@benday1218 Yes same here. Not everyone interprets the world through a radical leftist point of view.
Idk why but in South Asia, Urdu (not to say other languages in the region are a problem) is the closest to being stereotyped as the language of love that French is seen on most occasions. There’s this stereotype that Urdu poetry is all about randomly thrown words about superficial notions of love.
Exactllyyyyyy
There is so much more to it!!!
Perhaps I can help shed some light on your question. Urdu as language developed primarily through poetry (and often with the singing and dancing of mystics) performed simultaneously in the Royal court, where Persian was the main language, and on the streets where a sort of pre-Hindi language was dominant. These mystics fused a sort of divine love between man and universe/God, and a more earthly human love between well man and woman mainly. Since their own tradition heavily emphasized singing and dancing and losing oneself in this love as a way of connection with the universe, there is a whole lexicon of these out of mind, out of body, otherworldly experiences of intense emotion and love in Urdu. Et donc il y a une profondeur et une force d'émotion en Urdu qui est vraiment émouvante.
Great topic choice! I feel that most of us are confused about what love is, what it looks like and how to act when in love. I guess there is a place for diverse ideals of romance, and we shouldn't really try to define love and what it looks like in action because it will always be different for everyone. Just learn to take responsibility for your actions
spot on! and how i always felt that traditional "french love" & seduction & game is toxic... only if more people especially woman could get it now and understand how boring is good!
Wow, the part about asking for consent being seeing as cringe really got me because I'm always very worried by that and I'm scared to misread signs so i always ask to make sure and both men and women laughed at me for being like that. I was confused like how do you expect other people to know exactly what you want or don't want without clear communication 😭
If women want men to respect consent, then they need to be ok with some men asking for consent even if she might find that cringe or social inept or that it ruins the mood somehow. Women cannot expect men to be mind readers.
Don't ever let a woman make you feel bad for asking for consent. They need to make that shit clear or else less and less men are gonna wanna put up with the ambiguity and possible risks of guessing wrong.
I think there is actually something missing without a relationship in which you can be sure that someone else cares for your well being in once life. So I agree.
Much of the self love, i think, should be focus more on building confidence in one’s worth and setting strong boundaries to understand what should and what should not be accepted in partner.
Why it is turning into lonely/alone = strong and independent equation, i dont know!!!
And it is also so funny how feminist are often accuse of being “Man hater” 🤣🤣🤣 No one says that to a man, that they hate women when much of the sexual assault and violence are done by them - Every thing done by them are somehow understood in terms of being “sexual” or “harmonal” or “psycho” or “criminal” (something that is anomaly and out of standard and not the pervasive pattern of our culture! )
Are you kidding me? Men get called out all the fucking time for saying hateful things about women! And also, they get accused of hating women if they say something even mildly critical of women. Whereas women are given A LOT more grace and freedom to say hateful things about men. And when men complain about this, they are more likely to get dismissed by others.
Your claim is the exact opposite of the truth.
Edit: I have to emphasize my experience with "French romance" is maybe a new form, the French men I come across are from the younger generation (34 years old and younger, though some are a little older) brought up by some pretty feminist women and from what I've seen are very respectful and understand consent. Maybe the older generations are much different, maybe it's just the group of people I know
Maybe the stereotypes are true, maybe they're not. But all I know is that when I started dating then eventually married my Frenchie, the version I was introduced to through my partner and while observing the our French friends in relationships, it was definitely completely foreign to me in that it wasn't how I was used to in my environment back in California, nor was it like the way the French present it in films. It was something completely different from both. And of course I don't want to put all French people in a box, it's just my observations from the people I've known and seen.
Of the people I've seen they tend to be fiercely loyal when bonds are made, I personally haven't yet seen anyone date more than one person at the same time (one person in our friend group that now lives in the States admitted he'd tried the US version of dating and said he couldn't handle it at all, said it was too stressful, you can't get to know anyone at all that way, and switched back to just dating one person at a time), nor have their been rumors or and outing of any one cheating or having a lover on the side (that part does happen though in France, one friend's parents got divorced because of cheating). One part of the French version of dating I found was that you never have to have "the talk" like how we do in most Anglophone cultures (you know, the discussion of whether or not you're official and exclusive and can call each other boyfriend or girlfriend, that talk, I don't think it exists in French dating culture). As for romantic gestures, I have no idea, lol, since it's a person by person thing, my partner is a very pda type with me, very handsy, lol, his friends admitted to me they weren't sure if he was like that because they'd never seen this behavior in him before he met me, lol, but of our other friends it looks no different than in other cultures, not strongly one way or the other.
I love how you talked about the cringe feeling connected with an overly active form of consent. This speaks loudly to how we've been taught to view intimacy. Overcoming this has been really important in my relationships, as I've felt the reality of being seen and valued in communication
This is very fascinating. There's a lot I can respond to but i will just start out by saying that my first introduction to French wave was the film 37 Le Matin where the very first scene was the two leads having a ... graphic time in bed. So it was very male gaze-y depending how you look at it I suppose. I was also reminded of the notion of "the fall" as in to "fall in love" like it's sometning tragic, it's interesting how both the French and English culture sees love as a tragedy yet we somehow continue to perpetuate chase and pursuit of the woman's body and attention.
I also remember a time when I lived near a college roommate who would often make rape-y comments when female bodies are shown on screen and I find myself feeling a bit uncomfortable. Like yes, we are men, we have eyes, but I'm able to sense the difference between aesthetic enjoyment and toxic gazing. These thoughts are probably not coherent but that's how your video resonated with me!
Interesting part when you mentioned "fall in love" and connected it with "the fall" in a tragic sense. I never thought about that!
Also, I suppose the difference between aesthetic enjoyment and toxic gazing is that for one, it is about DOMINANCE and disregard of the individual while in the other, it is an appreciation of the ... I guess, lust? sensation? that stirs within the body from a particular presence. I flipped the words with their definitions, but you know what I mean.
I can totally relate to the being a "foreigner in another land", acting up the stereotypes cause it's a bit more alluring, exotic, and...predictable? At least, being an American in another country, I could "stretch" the inner city slang here and there, just because it is a reference for others to latch onto (though online dating was...not the best xD). However, over time, I sort of realize that I am trying to conform myself to someone else's ideals instead of my own ideals and that if I want to talk about feminism or racism in the work place, others want to look at me strangely, well... that's their bag.
As far as that one dude trying to say that America has an issue with sex because people reacted strangely with his daughter getting naked...yeesh. Well, I mean, yeah, the U.S. does have an issue with Sex and Violence (which I'll have to read essays on but through personal experience, in the U.S.'s eyes: Violence Good, Sex Bad...unless it is very specific, hetero, and for the male gaze) but to use that scene to justify the actions of a "seducer" as being more free than the states... Like, damn.
Though with these scandals coming out about these politicians and what they are doing, their "Golden Age" is coming to an end. Plus, I am curious about French Romantic media coming out this decade, if there will be more films that showcase relationships in an actual healthy way rather than how people outside the country "assume" French romance is.
There is a French film called portrait of a lady on fire. It's a slow burn romance about a painter and someone going to get married. I would also read the interviews with the director, as she talks a lot about the rise of desire, equality among women, and the female gaze.
This is so much like in Canada, I feel like people believe through Hollywood movies that finding love is important, that we need to have that charming man, and that the guy should be the one to first make the moves. Coming out as a queer women has been so gorgeously refreshing because consent is present, there isn’t that odd pressure of seduction and it feels so homey and caring. Even casual dating just felt so right. 🤷♀️
I remember watching À Bout de Souffle and feeling so uncomfortable by Jean Seberg’s character’s relationship with Belmondo’s that it made me reflect on how could it be that it was something accepted and expected of people at the time. Watching french new wave made me reflect a lot on how I have treated the women in my life in the past and breathing a sigh of relief. My goal has been to learn directly from women on how to be a better man not only for them, but for society at large. Relationships on french new wave films have made me very uncomfortable more often than not. Amazing video as always, merci!
Interesting. I'm a german woman, living in France since my late teens. I think in my culture, women are confortable with their bodies and nudity, with a healthy pinch of feminism. France, dating here and watching relations around me though has me speechless. I don't consider this being a sexual liberation like I grew up with in Germany, but a feeling of being taken advantage of, for one other party's desire. So many coworkers who cheat on their SO, and even with their workplace colleagues, which has me puzzled. I like being a flirtatious person, but know my boundaries, and I can't even be that person at my workplace because it lands me a male coworkers hand on my butt. When I told my female coworkers about this irresponsable and rude behavior, they just laughed, yeah coming from XY it doesn't surprise them. No one was shocked or worried for my well being, having been in a full blown panic on how I will defend myself against that man if noone is at the office at that time-where does it start, where does it end if my offended demeanor doesn't deter a potential abuser.
Dating men, same thing, I'm their object of desire, but besides toxic behaviors, can't give me the security and comfort of a loving, healthy relationship. I feel that even though younger generations aren't as flirty as their older counterparts, they grow into eventually. My theory is that the lack of religious studies during school years may play a role, since in germany religious studies are a must in school and subtle american influences in our culture since the world war.
All of this to say... Looking to settle down in my future, I don't think I can stay in France, this french "love" is too toxic and flakey for my taste, there's more to a relationship than to be desired... :/
Bianca I'm so sorry this has happened to you... this is absolutely unacceptable and work place sexual harassment!
"Looking to settle down in my future, I don't think I can stay in France, this french "love" is too toxic and flakey for my taste, there's more to a relationship than to be desired... :/
" Komm nach Spanien, die Dinge hier haben sich wirklich zum Besseren gewendet. :)
@@adrianseanheidmann4559 Du wirst lachen aber ich denke drüber nach seit ein paar Monaten und habe Valencia im Visier :))
@@Biancaviolin Na dat is wirlich lustig. Ich wohne seit 5 Jahren in Valencia. Sag Bescheid wenn du irgendwelche Infos brauchst. :)
@@adrianseanheidmann4559 so did you engage in intercourse?
This is the best reading I've got so far about this subject. I'm just amazed Thank you from Brazil 💜💫
About a year ago I decided to start broadening the horizons of TH-cam creators I watched to get different perspectives than classic white men. This has really become not just my favorite one of those channels but my favorite channel entirely. Your perspective is so different from mine I consistently find myself challenged in my own way of being. Our understanding of French love here in the US is very performative and as someone that has desired to be romantic I've found myself questioning how I have been in the past and how I would change that for the future because of this. The French aesthetic is very prominent in American romance and so it's very interesting getting a chance to really analyze it.
Funnily enough, I read through Denis Diderot‘s Jaques le fataliste in the last couple of days and it is full of very questionable sexual relations (rape, deception, extortion etc.) that are passed of as a joke. It is a great book full of wit, but I really didn‘t like these parts.
Off topic but I'm in American studying Ancient History for my Masters in the UK currently, and I must say that I love your videos.
This has genuinely changed my perception of a lot of my all time favourite films which happen to be French Nouvelle Vague. Jules et Jim is one of my favourite films of all time, a love triangle, that back and forths with platonic love, romantic love, sexual love, sexual obsession and romantic obsession, as well as sincere and caring love. But in the end, Catherine, the protagonist, loses her mind and kills herself and her husband in a paroxysm of overwhelming love, need and fear of abandonment. She was also characterised as being promiscuous in general, and the film did well to detach the notion of love from other factions of romance like sex, friendship, sincerity and happiness. But in the end, she was the villianous aftermath of three people, two of the men whom were just as obsessed with her as much as she was with them. The negative conotations of that didn't quite dawn on me until I saw it on this alternative perspective from the considerations explored on this video. I still love Jules et Jim, I think as a film buff it's an essential watch, but it certainly has its bitterness.
that said, I think you're beautiful Alice. I think you're beautiful.
One of your best videos so far! I love (pun intended) when you focus on french debates around social norms and its critique since its rare to find and hear for non-french speakers!
I am Argentinian and I haven't ever ever gotten the "french way of loving". First I thought that maybe I was too young, later that it was my catholic upbringing, but reciently I watched "Les choses qu'on dit, les choses qu'on fait (2020)" and "Les jours où je n'existe pas (2002)" and it just hit me: French people justify every transgression with the concept of love. Everything becomes grandiuos, poetic, ethereal even if "love" accompanies it. Is like they don't act in the name of anything (honor, liberty, whatever) else.
The web series Skam France is currently airing a season where the protagonist experienced date rape by her boyfriend, and it's handled surprisingly well!
It’s been a while since I watched Skam France. Can’t believe they’re at season 9 already!
Where can I watch Skam France? I was obsessed with the Norwegian original
Thanks for the great video! The ending points about self love being important but not the only form of fulfilling love and how real “true” love is out of care were really impactful. I recently found your channel and have enjoyed the content, keep up the great work!
I was explicitly raised by my mother to look at women and judge them based on my sexual attraction to them. At least in my case, the male gaze is not something i was somehow born with but i was trained and retrained in it my entire childhood. And it was largely enforced by my mother. I was always creeped out by her behaviour but thanks to your discussion, i am feeling much better knowing that many women in power are on board enforcing and enjoying the 'benefits' of the male gaze. Sometimes, it is hard to deal with how these gross and selfish people contribute so much to the suffering of others for their own benefit. Isn't that the definition of evil? To benefit from causing suffering? Thanks for the illuminating discussion! Much love!
I have noticed the male gaze a lot lately in music videos even in 2022 - watch a male artist and then a female one. Women are always more objectified.
I would argue that it's less that women in power enjoy the "benefits" of the male gaze and more than they have been trained by society to accept it and to see the objectification of their bodies (and themselves) as normal, and then continue to enforce it on others - kinda like how parents who hit their kids sometimes say "well, my parents hit me as well and I turned out okay!".
@@mac8697 I do not have any reason to disagree. It could also be deformed preferences from societal pressures. I am sure there are many more factors involved in producing the phenomenon. I had hoped to point out that biases towards the status quo and other system biases tend to operate as ego-serving reinforcing cognitive patterns. But i would like to know what your reasons are for your conclusion? Usually an argument has reasons, not just asserting the conclusion. I am particularly interested in how you can measure which factor is more at play. It would typically be an empirical study based on self-reports and i would love to find that sort of research.
@@rkmh9342 Sorry if I came across as confrontational, I actually agree with your main point about the male gaze being something that's thaught/learned and was hoping to provide a woman's pov on the issue (which fits your self-report argument). The way I see it, women who subject to the status-quo of being objectified and treated as an object of desire are granted certain privileges (e.g. social power) while being denied of their personhood. All in all I think both of the factors we've brought up come into play, but since the so-called benefits of subjecting to the male gaze come with a cost, the only reason we subjugate ourselves/others is because we've been trained to accept it and not question it.
@@mac8697 I think i was the one who comes across as confrontational 😏this issue is that you keep trying to say that "the only reason we subjugate ourselves/others is b/c we've been trained to accept it and not question it." and that is false. Not all women subjugate women for only that reason. Some people are evil and enjoy causing suffering in order to benefit. Some evil people are women. I was raised by one. And i am sure there are others, since the world is basically on fire and there are all these people fanning the flames? Much love! and sorry for the confrontational tone, been used to men trying to be all sensitive and shit by saying all women are nice when some women are awful. Some women help pedophiles, right? Damn, some women are pedophiles.
I can relate to your comments about self-fetishization to some extent. Americans have a weird obsession with Italians (The Godfather, the Sopranos) and sometimes it’s explicitly sexual (“Italian” is of one of the top 10 most frequent terms in erotica novels).
What’s strange to me though is how much more sex positive and yet more sexually conservative European culture is when you compare it to the US aka the land of porn and abstinence-only sex ed…
I second this comment - I’m an American who lives in Germany and I feel in many ways the culture is more sexually conservative
As an American living in Texas I can understand. I live in one of the most conservative states in the US and a lot of people around here are into some really crazy stuff. I want to know why it's like that here.
Comme toujours cette vidéo est un régal de réflexion, de références à creuser et d'infos. La touche d'humour que tu mets de plus en plus (ou alors c'est moi qui n'avait pas remarqué ça dans les premières vidéos) est justement dosée : de quoi faire sourire mais sans prendre le pas sur le propos.
Et l'arrière plan est très bien décoré !
Avalanche de compliments presque gênante mais je suis en spm alors je suis un peu cheesy 😊
It's a matter of being used to habits and routine performances. I myself had to rethink a lot about how to approach love and what to love at all. But as you mentioned in your video about positive masculinity, it always stems back to practicing naive care and love, that is not tainted by pre-determined character archetypes and instead develop a shared framework that is made by oneself and their partner.
Thank you for dealing with this difficult topic
Tu es ma TH-camr préférée. Je te remercie pour ta opinion. J'espère que tu passes une bonne semaine. Oui, j'ai aussi apprécié la chance de pratiquer de parler le français.
Thank you for this video, the bell hooks fragment it's sensitive and touching.
unromatic love extends beyond the human, too. we can love our places and the way they allow the folx we also love to exist. because existance is necessarily suffering (i think of the neighborhood i recently moved where gun violence is rampant and police disregard for human life is the best of the worst), the love and sense of place i held for the space i occupied ran concurrent with the people who habitated this place historically. me/we/us happened to also choose to extend love and acceptance for me/we/us and this produced some of the most profound examples I've personally witnessed of radical acceptance, self expression, and a building up of the systemically torn down parts of our city. this isn't a romantic retelling of the hood- the connection between extreme violence and the tolerance, love, acceptance, and generosity within a community is unfortunate and also positive. i know this comment may appear off topic, but it is not. sense of place is critical, too, in understanding not only culture but also the way we relate, desire relation, and the building/destruction of community.
Très belle extrait de Baudelaire dans l'intro!
Je me suis interesser a tout ce qui est commentary youtube ya un moment et je t'ai découvert.
J'adore tes concepts et vidéos!
This video and the Contrapoints video on Twilight make for the ultimate paradigm shift.
Thank you for another extremely interesting and thought provoking video! I’m so happy that I stumbled upon your channel.
Une vidéo qui mérite d'avoir des sous-titre en français pour être partagée aux français.es !
I feel that a lot that you talk in this video is not just for french people. Like a latina I found that same things in my culture too.
I can't remember the last time I rewatched a video as soon as I finished. Good job Alice! This resonates so much with me as the concept of "mexican love" has so many toxic traits in its traditionality. They "older guy" perspective you describe is still very prevalent in Mexico, even in younger people, unfortunately. But each year more people become aware of how harmful and, like you said, self sabbotage triggering this behaviour is (especially in heterosexual relationships!). Even girls in comedy and switching the narrative by making fun of this kind of guys.
This is very parasocial but althought I know you and I are strangers, watching your videos feel like talking to a long time friend. Smart, funny and really bright. Thank you!
🌟
I just read a very interesting short story from the 1950s by John Wyndham called Consider Her Ways. It touched a lot on the desperation of women to find love etc etc. I'd recommend it - keen to hear other people's views on it. Especially since it's from the 1950s
Really enjoyed this one! Lots of ideas to chew on. I resonated with the points you made at the end. Excellent video!
I came across your page tonight, and you have inspired a new chapter of my life- I know you seriously advocate reading books and I agree but also your content is a modern day book and such a valuable resource and I just wanted to say that in case you didn’t know :)
I watched this video a few weeks ago, and I'm still thinking about it. There's a really interesting episode of Maintenance Phase, a podcast about challenging diet culture and anti-fatness, about the 2004 book "French Women Don't Get Fat." The author, Mireille Guiliano, dives into these insane ways to become thin "the French way." She also outlines why French women have a unique cultural pressure to be a certain weight/look a certain way because of what Alice covers in the video.
Thanks! I like the host of that podcast a lot and didn't know they had an episode about that
This was such an interesting topic on something I've never thought about. Thank you!
I overly care about the people in my life but I've found it's caused a fair bit of anxiety for me
Essay très réussi. Merci d'aborder ça sujet, tu as très bien résumé le pb. Je découvre et apprécié bcp ta chaîne. Big up. ❤️
Attracting toxic relationships is not meant to destroy your life; It's meant for some to come help you clear your path.
💙TH-camr That Helps People Overcome Toxic Relationships
there is no greater meaning in misery
personally, i don’t think that the films of la nouvelle vague may be the best example for the point you were trying to make, because we were actually given another pov at the time as that period was marked by some prominent female directors like agnès varda and chantal akerman, who also potrayed love and romance in their work, not only from a female but also a feminist persepctive. and even the films by male directors - especially those of godard, were filled with political commentary and satire, so they’re far too nuanced to simply be labelled as “the male gaze”. but anyways, interesting video as always!
For the painting of Fragonard, I would say that is the man who is trying to open the door to escape from the women and not the opposite.
This topic is so interesting! Ps: I would love to know more about France and specially to watch you speaking french!
Gal, this channel is a gem! 🤩
Alice, I discovered your chanel a few days ago and I love it. Your videos are very educational. I am amazed how smart you are. Greetings from Croatia. ❤❤❤
What remains ideal in the French portrayals of romance, passion, authenticity of emotion, inhibition and frankness around sexuality can remain without elements of objectification, sexism and aggression. It's like people can't calibrate or be imaginative about culture and how flexible it actually is. Culture has never been static but people love to ossify it because it makes them comfortable and continues their role in it, often a position of power (for those with it).
I certainly don't want a monoculture either. Americanization isn't desirable and I hate the way dating and romance are understood in the US. It's often that romance can be transactional, dry, too pragmatic, self focused and strange around intimacy. Of course, not all relationships are like the cultural understanding of them. Cultural ideals and baselines are in the imagination and habits of their people, it's not like every individual prescribes to it. Yet, I find this thread of transactionalism common in the US. Passion and especially the expression of it in unabashed ways is extremely uncomfortable for many Americans. The unsaid understanding is that strong emotions in romantic relationships are dangerous, possessive and cringe. Particularly in the early stages of intimacy. That casual, "oh we are just fooling around" creates it's own outlets for toxicity and explorative sexuality. Not always but enough to where it's a cultural meme.
isn't it better to get to know eachother more to see if a relationship works out before full on jumping into sex and such? unless you just search for a one night stand 🤷♀️
Yo the comment about self-fetishizashitzashion is an interesting one. I know it's not really the point of this video, but as an American who moved to Europe I found myself doing much the same thing (usually without even thinking). Changing behavior, specific fashion style, accent, all that. Don't think I've read anything about it before, but there could be something there. Too lazy to google it though. Super vidéo comme toujours ^^
I'll second this. That time I went to the US for some postgrad stuff actually made my English accent closer to the RP one (the BBC News anchor accent, basically). I'm not sure I even did it consciously, but now I wonder if there isn't a part of self-fetishization in it.
(At one point, it was rarefied enough when I was chatting in the campus bus that several other people were glancing back to see who's speaking. That made me realise how my accent had morphed)
So so good! Thank you for articulating it so well ! Maintenant on laisse les français le comprendre et on croise les doigts!
I love hearing you speak French. More of this please!
Your video reminds me of the book by Albert Cohen, Belle du seigneur, a relationship with an unheard violence depicted as one the most beautiful love story.
Well done Alice !
One big feature for non french is age, the women act like kids or are kids. It's really cringe to watch these men go after girls.
The first thing I thought when I heard “L’amour a la Française” was Jean Dujardin on OSS117 and how he’s like a self satire of it and representations of French men
Ma vidéo préférée so far !!! C'est vraiment très bien articulé, les arguments et comment tu les confrontes. Tu sais qu'on est d'accord là dessus ! (+ contente que le livre te serve de source!!) ❤️
Superb analysis! Thank you!
Thank you for your time,
Here is my perspective coming from a puritan culture. Puritanism, (in this context) a patriarchical culture that is afraid of sex.
My grandmother was forced to keep on bringing children.
Whilst she was a citizen of the french commonwealth, but
she bismillah al wahid still had to birth disciples for God. Bismillah al wahid (alrakman), in the name of the one God (the Mercifull)
Sex in this culture is viewed as the mechanical act of reproducing.
Love is to be expressed only to ones children or students.
In fact, sexual education in this culture is borderline abuse. The teaching does not explain anything other than 'sex' is bad, and that God is wrathfull (revenge) to the immoral.
These days there is a don't ask don't tell policy in place.
But still, not teaching how consent works and even undermining it,
togheter with repression makes abuse commonplace and victims shunned. Repression: forcing someone to push away his/her sexual desires and the shaming of sexuality.
We now understand the motivations of sexual reformers over the ages.
Even in Europe sex was stigmatised for the entire middle and industrial ages.
However, we do need to keep in mind that this puritan culture is right below our noses.
In churches, mosques, synagogues,temples ETC.
Yes, right now there are teenagers and even young adults who don't know what sex is.
And they live here, in the west.
We can help, by supporting free education centers,
homeless shelters, drug rehabilitation facilities ETC.
I tried to talk about this issue with my local community, and am shunned by it.
Luckely I have a supportive family.
sincerely.
Always learning more and more. Thank you, Alice
You are beautiful! You are beautiful!
god the way you describe the way french people talk about love is mortifying
I tapped on the notification in a minute, which means I was enthusiastic. Also, you look stunning, Alice!
EXCELLENT topic, Alice! Loved this!
I admire marlon brando for several things he did in his life but the one scandal that made me think less of him, is the rumor behind a highly controversial sex scene in "...Last tango in paris..."
Excellent video by the way, intruiging and thought provoking.
Merci pour ton super travail ! Food for thoughts as always!
You made me want to read bell hooks, I'd never heard of her, love your videos!
I think playing with stereotypes is a form of making situations or people to easily fit into an understandable type, so we do not ned to think further. Being a German American places certain stereotypes onto me which may or may not be true. Maybe the real concern is spending more time in understanding who a person truly is would be better. As for love, I always go back to Eich Fromm's book The Art of Loving. Your comment on caring I feel fits into his ideas.
When I was a young teen/young adult (late '70s-early '80s) men would give a compliment while passing on the street. The woman (it was usually a woman) would just smile and walk on. That was the extent of the exchange: someone would give a compliment, someone would smile in acknowledgement. Period. Nowadays, giving a smile is interpreted as an invitation, the man will follow you, and then will get angry when you give him the brush off. It's as if these men have forgotten how to "read the room".
I would be curious to know more about the French anti-americanization movement that you briefly touched on. American media and the English language have such a strong presence in my life that I feel like I don't know my own country's culture anymore and I fear that this will become more common.
It also annoys me how prevalent English words are when people discuss topics such as self-care, gaming, movies and identity politics on the internet. It gives me the feeling that nothing they say comes from their own thoughts, but is instead just mindlessly regurgitated from what Americans told them.
I'm Spanish and I feel a little bit the same way. I think we're still in the process of assimilating the new vocabulary and, as we do so, we'll learn to apply it to our own cultural contexts.
@@mac8697 But do we need that vocabulary? As Alice pointed out, French movies stereotypes are basically mostly stereotypes. In real life, the French romanticism is pretty rare, not that common or exists in some specific spheres, so are the toxic behaviors. In my opinion, we shouldn't use the American way of seeing things to label other cultures.
@@Cloudyvi Because we need words to describe the stuff that happens to us, and borrowings are a millenia-long linguistic occurrence. That doesn't mean that the concept doesn't change or is modified depending on the culture that uses it. It's just easier to borrow a word and then figure out how it applies to you than it is to make up a whole new one from scratch.
Edit: I agree with your point that we shouldn't directly apply the American way of seeing to other cultures! But I believe we can take words that are useful for us and use them in ways that are meaningful in relation to our way of life.
Yes yes yes
Super vidéo, en tant que Français je trouve aussi qu'il est grand temps de se débarrasser de cette approche cliché et dommageable de l'amour et du rapport amoureux. Coucou de Belgique!
I performance you, Alice. With all my performing heart.