The thing about Rocky is that he's not suppose to be an "Alpha male". The movie always paints him as an imperfect man down on his luck, but also a man working to the bone to improve. What was said in the film Rocky Balboa, perfectly summarizes what Rocky is all about. Especially in the first movie: "it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can _get_ hit and keep moving forward. How much you can _take_ and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done." Most men can never relate to Rocky's unique experiences, but what _is_ relatable is the complete helplesslness, stress, and odysseistic hurdles that men face. And it can come in many forms like work, family, school, personal health. Anything in life, you name it. Any man who uses this movie as a testament to "you're not a real man, if you're not Rocky" is completely ridiculous. Rocky is all of us in some form or another.
We don't... we default to our fathers, older brothers, and friends. The media overrepresents the influence of the media elite as an act of self aggrandizement.
The reason why is because youtube channels, blogs etc that talk about positive masculinity only get attention when they talk about public figures that are well known. It appeals to an audience that has the same references. You're gonna have less traction with your tweets about how your uncle is a great role model But you are right, there should be more emphasis on the fact that everyone should look around them, in their social and family circles instead of always looking up to celebrities. Tl;dr we live in a society
this is why i "don't like" pedro pascal. i can't get over the fact that we praise a rich actor for the bare minimum. people are so obsessed with him and it makes me uncomfortable.
Welcome to people. People with influence become role models. It used to be that way with the hero-kings of mythology. It was that way with authoritarians in the 20s and 30s. If you want someone better, you need to champion them.
@@ronaiomo5956 yes. And, well, I can't speak for everyone, but if one correlates not having a positive male role model with being an "unhealthy" male, does that mean one is "bad" from boyhood to adulthood? Wouldn't that instill learned helplessness in a developing young man and seal his fate? I know I sound awfully defeatist, but as someone who spends a fair bit of time in both "red pill" and "leftist" spaces online, I can't count the amount of comments I've seen from men who express frustration and have "given up" because there's seemingly no way we're not going to be seen as a "threat".
Don't pick Rocky as an example if you never seen it(which I must assume if you got it so wrong). He's basically the antithesis of what you portray him as but actually what you're advocating for.
In addition, i would say he is the opposite of what would be an "alpha" male. Sure he has his times, but overall he values the help that his wife Adrian has done for him and equally values her as a person. In addition, got help from his rival, Apollo
@@TheSyconerd But isn't there a very problematic scene in the movie were rocky forces himself on his wife/ partner against her will? Forcing her to submission. it is very rapey like in Blade Runner a very similar scene.
@@majesticmagpie4108 yes, which is why I say that he has his moments. In addition he does like glamour and expensive things ( like in rocky 2 and 4), which isn’t entirely bad but in his case it was. But honestly I just blame aged writing on that one
You seem to have misunderstood what she was using Rocky as an example of (at least, I must assume so). She never passed a moral judgement on Rocky or gave an analysis of his character. All she said was that he is an example of hegemonic masculinity. It’s important to understand that this is not the same thing as toxic masculinity or an "alpha male." Hegemonic masculinity is simply the conventional, idealized image of what a man should be; physically powerful and attractive, mentally strong, disciplined, ambitious, heterosexual, etc. Rocky is every one of those things. The fact that he appreciates his partner or could be a good person in general does not contradict this at all. All she was saying is that he’s one example of the conventional masculine ideal, and that society tends to police men’s behavior in order to ensure conformity to such images.
What entertains me is the idea of men in the 1700s adjusting their wigs, putting on their makeup and high heels whilst ranting that “men aren’t men anymore” Oh how the tables have turned. EDIT: revisiting this comment section every now and then is nothing short of joyful. It’s a little joke guys, chill out.
Yes, everybody did that, not just the 1in 10000 people who belonged to the higher social class, and specificly dressed up like that to signal how different they are from common man. Dumb as argument.
I disagree with giving “fem” and ”masc” qualities beyond outward appearances. Being “caring” shouldn’t be “fem”. It’s a state of being and shouldn’t be “gendered”. I see “toxic” masculinity and “toxic” femininity as being a sh!t person and then using your gender as an excuse. To be “healthy” fem/masc you need to be a good, balanced person (or actively trying to be) and that’s it.
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Women are more caring. It's literally in their nature, it's part of the life cycle as animals, part of the nurture thing a species needs when they have to take care of a baby for years before it can even walk independently. It's 100000% a feminine quality to be caring. Men care and can be caring. But it's not the same as women. These weirdos tho think that being feminine and or masculine is "how you dress and look" are the dumbest bunch I've ever encountered. Being a man or woman isn't an outfit you creep
I agree with your point, but I also think that using the terms “toxic masculinity” and “toxic femininity” is still useful for the purpose of identifying trends in the kinds of toxic qualities that people who are raised in a gendered way, and are more common in one or the other gender. Because it can allow us to see the problems not as inherently their own or their parents fault, but as a societal pattern that can be changed if given the correct attention.
@@NotreDanish the only problem with using “toxic masculinity” and “toxic feminity” is that people struggle to understand what those are and what behaviors are associated with each. Toxic feminity also doesn’t really have all the toxic things women do and toxic masculinity doesn’t have all the toxic things men do
Nah cause thats not how the brain works. Gender either biologically or cultural is a large aspect of a persons identity and ignoring that is just asking for trouble and difficulty in society
It's hard not to notice that most of the "healthy masculine" role models named are all very conventionally attractive people, just with different fashion choices. I think it takes a lot more than fashion to ensure someone has a "healthy" perspective on gender. I wish more time was spent on articulating *actual examples and quotes* from these people rather than showing pictures of them looking cute in their cardigans.
IKR? It seems like a list of someones celeb crushes, not examples of masculinity, as in the personality. Masculinity as in the female gaze is what it felt like they were referring to.
agreeeed. It literally feels like a list of teenage girls celeb crushes. Who just happen to wear clothes different from most men. That's just an example of handsome men wearing different fashion not good men.
I mean it has to start somewhere. I'm not big on this whole thing and I don't care much for celebrities but it's at least a step. If we're going from Sylvester Stallone to idk Tom Hardy it's a step in a right direction at least. Things will always be far more excepted if done by pretty people, I see it in my country where homophobia was rampant that people took much more ease to it once certain things got normalized by celebrities. It's not really how I would want to see it but it's a huge step forward regardless.
We need multiple role models of multiple aesthetics and body types, but with good morals, who are good people cause it'll be bad to associate being a good person with a certain look and implicitly gatekeep that behind a certain gender expression (or lack thereof)
Rocky is about a lower class man who is very empathetic, kind and wants connection with others working hard to overcome horrific poverty and have a better life. I really recommend watching movies before you talk about them.
it's about the spirit...let me ask you what is the climax of the movie? that he finally gets Adrian, have a lots of friends, fans and money? It's all symbolism, and a boxing match is as pure as it gets when it comes to symbolism. Anybody gets it, regardless of your socioeconomic/cultural status
I think her opinion of the working class is fairly clear, and her choosing Rocky without qualification just confirms it (remember also with the army guy she said "Just from how he looks, you can tell he's probably going to say something problematic"). They don't have enough "cultural capital" to not be misogynists. Maybe the most condescending euphemism to say if you're poor you're stupid I've come across. And the ideal for the working classes she proposes is not Trotsky, Upton Sinclair or Sandino, but Tom Holland! They should just shut up and try to get rich while experimenting with new non-binary fashions they can't afford. Her empirical evidence is also misleading. Yes, the lower classes have more wives who do domestic chores, but the men are doing equally low-level jobs outside the home. Anyways, I personally see a woman being on Fortune 500 as more degrading to her dignity than being a housewife...
the point she's making isn't premised on how he's actually presented, though, it's how he's perceived in popular culture, which is as a masculine ideal (as demonstrated by all the whining in the comments by what I presume are thin-skinned men). Doesn't matter if this perception in pop culture is at odds with the character's 'true nature', what matters is this perception itself.
You should rewatch Rocky 1. He is cripplingly insecure, socially graceless and a constant loser in the film. He even loses the final fight to Apollo Creed. He is exploited by the mob and promoters and is damaged by their exploitation, physically and emotionally. His struggle in the film isn't becoming a great boxer, it is having self respect. I think the message that men in subordinate positions in society can have self respect is a valuable one, but I do want to point out that the race politics of the film are pretty rough.
@@beganitdidnt6535 Male insecurity is just as much a result of the patriarchy as oppression of women is. It is the driving force behind black pillers and incels. You wouldn't know anything about those movements would you?
The appeal of Rocky, for me at least, lies not in his unattainable achievements or physique, but instead in his determination, hard work and unswerving drive to climb from the bottom to the top of his profession. Overall, the story of Rocky isn't about being the champion per se, rather, it's about doing better. Also, he doesn't go it alone. He has a trainer, Mickey.
I think a lot of heroes and ideals aren’t meant to be attainable, they’re meant to be inspirational. A force that moves you forwards in self improvement. As you get closer to that ideal, you see results and find enjoyment (normally). I did not agree with her when she then said that men calling other men pussies to compare to strikebreakers. As in to outcast weaker men and prevent them from joining the clique. I don’t know what kinda 90’s high school bully she got that from, but in my generation men (in person not online go touch grass) are extremely welcoming into spaces and activities to many people. Denigrating someone like that is very very rare, and I’ve never heard it used as a way yo deter others from self improvement. Only as a goading between friends when being idiots and doing dumb things while playing or hanging out.
I would also add that Rocky's relationship with Adrian is one of the better ones in cinema. It's a rare thing for a movie of this kind to have a female lead who is NOT a sex object.
You need to watch Rocky again because it seems you didn't get it. Rocky is a dirt poor tender guy that is reaching for love. Boxing is the set, is the representation of that battle for love and life that poor poeple go thru every day. It is amazing to me how it is so easy for poeple to talk about everything BUT class.
Yup, Rocky by the time he's boxing way outside of his age range that's why people say he's washed up. Rocky had to resort to being a thug for the mob to make ends meet. Rocky is such a good movie for those that came from the streets. We all wanted to be like Rocky in someway coming from poverty.
Rocky 1 is this, but you cannot argue that the subsequent movies stripped away his nuance and made him into a jingoistic ideal for Reagan-era masculinity. I think it’s fair for Alice to use Rocky in this way, considering only one of the 11,000 Rocky movies runs counter to this narrative.
I don't think this girl can do anything other than spew the standard set of feminist dogmas. And that dogma really doesn't allow for a man to ever be anything other than "toxic".
Not to diminish anything that's been said here but it's also worth discussing the role women play in reinforcing harmful stereotypes about masculinity. Calling certain behaviours "gay" or "feminine traits", or even calling regular ways of expressing emotion or vulnerability "red flags" are arguably more damaging to a man than his mate telling him to harden up.
Women who say that probably got it from other men…. Patriarchy teaches everyone how men and women are supposed to be. The fact that they’re women does not matter, they’ve believers like men about the (false) image about what men are supposed to be.
Exactly, infact such women also police other women for not being "feminine enough" They often view other women as competition and hate independent women or women who support their SAH husbands financially because they want to dodge the bullet of having any economic responsibility..
Is Rocky's place as a role model really about his physique? Not his story, how through all adversity he never gave up and fought to the bitter end to achieve the goal he had put in mind? Not really wanting to be how he looks like but be how resilient he is to the hardships of society. Not a role model for men, but people in general.
Also, Rocky failed and knew he'd probably fail against Creed! Yup, the lesson to take from Rocky is the journey. Mind you, plenty people will just focus on an aesthetic, something you can show in a poster, because the journey is hard and uncertain.
@@MalMotorDedo Bateman is a psychopath whose adversities in his life come down to trying to behave like a functioning person whilst suppressing his unquencheable thirst for murder and to look unique among a crowd of suits. I wouldn't say the "Bateman's literally me!" crowd reveres his figure the same way as Rocky fans view his character as a role model, to say the least hahaha
@@miguelpadeiro762 I know lol 😂 I'm just talking about totally misunderstanding a character and I feel that, same as Rambo, Rocky was more of a "he's a real man, he's stoic, he can beat anyone" type of energy. A lot of that comes from the fact that the Rocky movies are very much USA propaganda so lol
@@MalMotorDedo the story of how Rambo's tone shifted between 1 and 2 is ridiculous and I think a lot of people only saw the later movies or haven't seen them and think its all just dumb action. Its crazy to think a thoughtful movie about PTSD (although theres plenty of right wing propaganda about how soldiers were treated coming back from vietnam) was turned into totally dumb action for the rest, completely ignoring the character for the rest. Apparently the last one was supposed to be about Rambo returning home and finally talking to his father after Rambo 4 and was going to be a drama, but the studios wouldn't fund that so they just turned it into "Rambo is racist to Mexicans".
What you said about cultural capital got me thinking. I grew up in a middle-class family in suburban India, and while I do have a certain amount of cultural capital, it can't really be compared to what most boys growing up in the west possess. The school environment was a bit rough, and it was common for boys to get into fights and be beaten up by boys of rival gangs. I was a spectacled studious kid who scored high marks and never got into that sort of trouble. And yet at many points in my life, I encountered situations where I either did get beaten up or came very close. The experiences taught me to perform toxic masculinity as a survival mechanism. Not the misogyny part of it but definitely the anger and the overconfidence. And I'll be honest here, it unlocked doors for me. When I was a MANLY man, full of rage and confidence, who'd f*ck your shit up if you looked at him the wrong way, society gave me respect. My opinions mattered. I was treated like an adult. Nobody saw the gangly, pimply, bespectacled teenager floundering beneath. Other boys were more wary of me. They gave me space, because they thought that my confidence must be rooted in something substantial, and that I was crazy enough to hurt them and not care what happened to me. But it sucked growing up like that. It felt like constantly being in survival mode. It was only when I got an admission to a very prestigious college that things started changing. Suddenly everyone around me had great cultural capital. They came from privilege. Physical violence was uncouth, and rage was seen as peasant behaviour. Equality was cool. Fortunately I found a feminist Professor who shaped my understanding of the world, and what it means to be a good person. If not for her, I could've easily transitioned from performing toxic masculinity to performing positive masculinity, without any true transformation. I'm not sure if I have any answers. But I do think that when it comes to role models, a person actually present in your life can have a far greater impact than a social media personality. We need to learn to talk to kids. And because society shouts different things at people born female and those born male, we need to learn to talk differently to them. While the end of the journey, to be a good person, might look similar for everyone, we all start in wildly different places, and so the conversations must be different as well.
This is incredibly thoughful. Loved the way you worded it. Growing up in Delhi has allowed me to witness this first hand, seeing my childhood friends change their entire persona when they went to school, and as soon as they were back around me, they said they felt safe in a more feminine, or you could say laid-back environment. It was tough seeing my friends put up a fight against who they truly were because rough toxic masculinity was rewarded in our culture, and to go against it, was to go against your safety. To me, it seemed like a flight or fight response to the culture at that time. Now we have all grown up, and while some of my guy friends ended up performing toxic masculinity, like you said, it isn't hard to transition into it if you're not careful. 2 of them could break free when they entered a college in the south of India. Maybe it had to do with different cultures, but South was more laid back and allowed my friends to simply be, not perform, not react - just be. We were also lucky to be surrounded by incredibly educated feminist professors and that shaped all of us into better human beings. Now I don't know whether I can really blame my other friend for not being able to escape that transitioning because I do feel until he wouldn't feel safe, he wouldn't let it go. When you said we all start in wildly different places, it made me also think we all also end up with very different privileges. I can never have an answer for what is right for my friend - would he be any different had he moved with us to a college out of our home city, or would that never matter and he would personally make the choice to be toxic. I don't know.
I can definitely agree with the point of the original post, and I think that this can be linked to a lot of movements and figures that we have seen in the last decade.
Regarding culture, same from where I came from. Poor men (and even women) are aggressive, quarrelsome, horny, foul-mouthed, wicked, etc. It's simply a survival thing. Life is tough being poor so you have to be "toxic". Rich men tend to be more polite, well mannered, controls their emotions and urges but stuck-up and arrogant. Of course there are good and bad people on both sides but their demeanor really differs. Again, it's all for survival.
The fact that masculinity is based on looks talks to me : I don’t like when people think that a lumberjacks shirt, or a sailor sweatshirt (marinière) makes a man look good. I can’t help but see that what is attractive is the background of the clothes, for example a romanticized view of a little cabin in the wood with a lumberjack chopping wood with an axe (rarely a chainsaw) or a sailor throwing a fishing net from his cute wooden boat (but not a trawler). But the locals who do those hard works are rarely considered as role model. That’s the hypocrisy of styles and cardigans… I should mention there’s a video about working class aesthetic on this channel that does a better job than this post.
Ultimately that's just a fashion/style trend, which come and go. People's taste in clothing doesn't automatically mean that they are reinforcing toxic masculinity, it's just clothes. Really, in the same way it's dumb to be mad over men wearing cardigans, it's pretty absurd to get mad over men wearing flannel or sailor sweatshirts because the far more important thing is how people act and treat others, not what they wear.
actually kinda based. i used to buy carhartt because it was pretty good price, flame retardant, and super durable (which i need because im a welder). in the recent years its getting way more expensive to buy and it seems to be worn by people who dont even do blue collar work. which is fine but i do feel like i has something to do with looking masculine.
Regardless of the gender politics, Stallone wrote Rocky intending it to be a love story. Boxing itself is a metaphor for Rocky finding his worth / place in society as a struggling, beat up fighter (and finds it in his family: Adrian, Mickey, his son). As the films progress it just goes to show that whatever Rocky dealt with all that mattered to him is his family.
Overconfidence is highly rewarded in our society, especially in terms of economics and finding a partner. Until you change those things, you will not get rid of toxic state of the world.
@@MrScientifictutor Sorry I clicked the wrong box when I sent my text. Sorry about that. As your your post. When have male prime mates not been aggressive. Just like prime mates in the wild we have to fight to reproduce. Whether you want to believe it or not, Life for all organisms us about surviving any way you can for as long as you can until you spawn. There is no right or wrong when surviving in the jungle.
@@MrScientifictutorI was going to write "When men are rewarded for showing humility, things will change" But maybe men shouldn't seek to be rewarded. Maybe men should seek growth for growth's sake. Don't change so you'll get a better job or a pretty girlfriend. Change so you can be a better person, and that's it's own reward.
7:18 I think the first Rocky movie might show a more nuanced depiction of masculinity than understood at first glance. In that movie, he’s surprisingly emotional and vulnerable despite his hard head veneer. Not that he hasn’t been used to represent toxic masculine standards on the grounds of work ethic and physical prowess, but Rocky I is genuinely such a good movie with what I view as a sensitive, nuanced, masculine character. I’d love to know what y’all think.
to expand::: it’s like Rocky is battling with toxic masculine standards as a result of his low social capital and class status before he’s famous. I’m not sure what I’d have to say about the later movies, but I find it very interesting how Rocky was tokenized as a masculine standard considering his origin story. Perhaps it’s a “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” romanticized narrative.
Totally! It's really bizarre that people use him like that. We're talking about a a character who knows he's ultimately going to fail, and who's actual victory is the journey he goes through to prepare for his fight against Creed and everything that happens along the way.
that's exactly why Rocky 1 is a timeless classic. It's about a man who is vulnerable in the face of failure, knows he is going to fail, knows he is a loser, everyone tells him he is a bum that's never going to make it out of the shipyard, and still he pushes forward with all his heart despite everything being fucked up in his life in order to follow his dream to be in the same ring as the champion.
Yeah you're totally right. Rocky is a meat head but he's a sincerely nice person. Like the type of guy you wish was your uncle and you'd tell him everything. I agree that I don't see people using him as an example but I know why you mentioned him. We both know if Rocky came out in 2023 he'd be the poster boy for "toxic masculinity" just because of the way he looks and if you defend him people would lose their minds.
It's kinda funny how Rocky and Tate are the reverse of eachother Traumatized veteran is harassed by cops and goes on a rampage before crying to his friend about the trauma and indifference he's been shown -- people only see how aggressive and tough he is Asshole who built his empire on scams and human trafficking -- his fans only see how hot and successful he is
I disagree with the last part about men having to “lower” their confidence for the sake of empathy. There is a time to be confident, no matter what level it is, and there is a time to show emotion other than anger or happiness. One should not be sacrificed for the other.
I think a healthy confidence is good, but never have a toxic confidence like Andrew Tate, I think many men are so confident in themselves that they might not consider if they are in the "wrong" and show empathy, he didn't say men should have low confidence.
I say this as a straight guy, but I feel we're just waaaaay too hemmed in from both the leftists ("masculinity is toxic!") and the rightists ("Be a real man, pussy!"). I just want to live a nice life. I want to play my video games, go hiking on weekends, read my books, date a nice (preferably attractive and feminine) girl, and have job that doesn't treat me like shit. I want to be able to express myself emotionally. Talk about the things that frustrate me, express my love, my fear, my frustrations, my disappointments. And yet, no matter how much the world changes, I still feel like I'm expected to stay in my little box. Sure, I can now wear sequins or whatever, but if I go on a date and talk about how rough it is getting laid off, I'm still afraid (out of experience) of being called a weak loser. Women have been liberated from being domestic/sex objects and subservient, which I'm all for, but I'm still stuck with the expectation of being a "success object". We need to get away from Masculinity is good/evil. This is a false dichotomy. Masculinity is good and evil, as is femininity. Patriarchy, toxic masculinity, etc. is a simplification, it simplifies and conceals a reality that's much more nuanced and complicated then the ideologues on either side want to acknowledge.
You were doing fine but talk is cheap… I don’t want to talk about my emotions, I want control them So they don’t control me. And grow up, videogames are for kids and you have to work to buy yourself a house. Rent is due
Interesting comment! Men have indeed this pressure to be a "success object", in the same way women are seen as the "sex objects" or 'lesser thans." Though I have to note that women as a collective haven't yet been liberated from being domestic/sex objects etc, but I get your point. After all, don't we all just wish to be treated as human beings and live nice happy lives?
@@DonesdeMotivacion You don't have to talk about your emotions, but everyone needs a healthy emotional outlet. For some it may be sports, talking to someone, playing games, listening to music, writing or whatever. Unhealthy outlets would be abusing substances, taking your feelings out on others etc. You can't control your emotions by suppressing them, if that's what you meant. Not everyone enjoys talking about their feelings. I sure don't. But learning to handle your emotions in healthy ways is important for everyone.
6:53 With all due respect you have never watched Rocky he is a very positive masculinity figure he is caring not just a brute and his story is about overcoming his own situation not by crushing others but by bettering himself
It really isn't about healthy or positive or toxic masculinity as you say, it truly is about learning how to be a good, and happy person. Learning how to be accepting, and how to do what you want without judging others, or fear of being judged yourself. I do try my best. I wear cardigans because they're convenient and comfortable btw.
It's always been interesting to me as a man who physically fits into a lot of the traditional 'manly man' stereotypes, but doesn't behaviorally fit them in a lot of ways, that so many of my peers feel so much pressure to conform to those behavioral ideals/expectations. I never really considered what 'being a man' was, since my parents certainly never prescribed what I had to do or be interested in (aside from making me choose a sport and an instrument to play, but those kept me healthy and built character), and I guess I just kinda grew into my own particular brand of man. I really wish more people got the opportunity to do that, because I think they'd be a lot happier not having to worry about meeting some abstract, unattainable version of 'manhood'. My appearance has led people to believe certain things about me that couldn't have been further from the truth, yet simultaneously I'm certain it has afforded me more leeway in my less traditionally macho interests, because I still visually conform to more or less what's expected. Ultimately, in my mind, masculinity and femininity (of the healthy variety), should ideally be what you make of them, and should be built around the core tenet of being a good person, and treating the identities of others with the same respect you would like afforded to your own.
I'm the opposite. I look like a man-child with soft features and frail skinny frame with the added curse of being extremely short. I think I fit into the tough guy crowd (worked dangerous dirty heavy jobs and grew up in a poor country) but my appearance is the opposite lol. People think I'm smart educated studious type when I'm not. I wish I was one though. Nothing to be proud of being a tough guy. I'd rather grow up in a rich country, sipping my latte, going to college, do some office work, and I dunno...powder my nose. Comfort is all.
The list of positive masculinity role models referenced seems to suggest the main attributes wanted are to be rich, famous and really, really good looking.
@@sassythesasquatch4147 by their nature they aren't collectively attainable. I won't become any of those things. Few people will. And a lot of that will be down to circumstance of birth
@@calastyphon3414 literally only one of those three aren’t attainable naturally (good-looks:if you aren’t genetically gifted) but the vast majority can get themselves in fighting shape, eat healthy and consider proper skin care. You sound negative af. You probably won’t become rich because you have zero drive, fame is meaningless and looks can always be improved on, but crying about your genetics is pathetic. With unironic intention, you genuinely need to man tf up if that is how you see the world. Crying because you aren’t good-looking, haven’t made enough money (which is directly correlated to your effort) or don’t have the attention of others is quite literally the most feminine thing I’ve heard.
@@sassythesasquatch4147 ??? Surely for a better society it's important that examination of social expectations aren't as shallow. In a world that works for working class people we should be able to look to ourselves rather than the rich.
This is of course an oversimplification but I believe this comes down to selection/attraction. Most heterosexual cisgender men have in their younger days had experiences where they were overlooked by the object of their affection because they they were not the “bad boy” There is a TH-cam clip with a young Tupac that perfectly illustrates this (Tupac On Being Nice To Women). This is why the word ’gay’ has been used to insult these men, because seeming gay means not being sexually attracted/attractive to women. Of course sexual dynamics are complicated but we need to be more honest about attraction. There is a cliché used for western masculine heroes most of us will be familiar with “Men want to be him, women want to be with him”. This should read “Men want to be him because women want to be with him”. Men want to be desired by women so they seek out what they see as masculine role-models.
Women want to be with Harry Styles and Justin Bieber let's say, but men still call them 'gay'. Why don't most men try to be more like them? As for male masculine heroes, can you give an example? I mean most male or female characters are created by men for men in the western media, so there's a type of self-fulfilling prophecy that men create that influences a certain worldview of many men and women.
That's just romantized USAnian bully culture, no guy would get a girl behaving like a bully in El Salvador, we just hate them and nobody is supported to behaving like that, you get ostracized as a dangerous person. The bad guy story mostly applies to the USA.
What you touched on in the "too many lies" section (being regarded as 'less of a man' for doing [X]) is not limited to men shaming men. This negative reinforcement comes from women too, and should be a huge signal that this is a problem that is not limited to one gender. When will we recognize that women also play in this dynamic?
Yes, the truth of life is that Men make judgements and shame women. Women makes judgements and shame men also. This is reality. Although most Feminists would argue it's all because of Toxic Masculinity, just take a look around in your day to day life. We all know women who judge men brutally all the time. Women i think are more judgemental overall in behaviour, while men are more controlling overall in behaviour. Obviously not every individual is like this, but in general its like this.
@@bluchu22 Bro, feminists are always talking about how women can do harm due to internalized sexism. You gotta get out of what ever echo chamber you're in dude
@@badaoe3stratsonly130It's because of the misrepresentation of feminism on TikTok with the "men are trrash" "i hate men" sexist nonsense. The same people who don't like actual feminists calling them out on their hypocrisy and sexism.
I suspect this new "soft" male ideal will have a similar role to the one the "girlboss" had for millennial women in the 2010s. A step in the right direction, that obviously doesn't fix all the structural problems, and that 10 years from now we will cringe at, but still a change that I am excited for. All hail the himbos and the soy boys and the books on gentle fatherhood!
Nah, the Girlboss was literally a "Phallic symbol", the soyboy (soft male) doesn't the competitiveness to become akin to a Girl boss. It's literally a role reversal, the man is now the woman and the woman is now the man. Low testosterone doesn't fucking help millenials and zoomers not become mouth breathing twigs that think whole milk is yucky
Good insight! Definitely agree that at its core "soft male" is conservative and not radical because all it does is redefine the gender binary and the male as it functions in a capitalist culture, so it still serves the capitalist machine.
Really depends on culture. I feel that for american white guys from an older generation fashion is probably not important to them. Which is different from me as a black man also as a goth. My uncles always liked to dress well, the other black men in my mom's neighborhood also liked to dress well and be stylish. That is something I've noticed compared and so for us being well dressed is a sign of character. Jewelry and tattoos are luxury items. I'm working class so that will also be a factor.
Im from Argentina. In my high school 4th wave feminism in 2017 hit extremely hard. The student union organized a lot of debates, we went to loads of demonstrations, etc. A lot of guys suddenly started to call themselves deconstructed (in Spanish the word also exists). Turns out, for a lot of the, (immature boys) it was a way to make themselves attractive to girls. We found out not much later that most of them were calling us feminazis or whores in their private conversations… Deconstruction as a stereotype is very dangerous in that sense, it can work as a perfect mask.
Across the border here in Brasil these are called "esquerdomachos" (Leftomachos for the gringo friends). Aka, guys who only espouse leftist aesthetics as a way to impress leftist women and girls, but who don't actually practice what they preach. The classic example is a guy who preaches gender equality but doesn't help out washing the dishes or cleaning the house.
The point behind Rocky (and I suppose all role models for both sexes) isn't to act as a blueprint for what one should become. It's more that it inspires people to become better versions of themselves, as in Rocky it shows that this continued perseverance makes you achieve things you never thought you could achieve. I don't see at all how it means you have to be mean to others trying to achieve their own goals.
I don't get how feminists always see anything representing traditional masculinity as somehow bad to look up to. But men who wear dresses and have woke ideologies should be imitated. I thought the idea was to let everyone be whoever they want? This is quite absurd.
@@jamesmccloud7535 she is literally not saying that. The point is how people just look at the "macho" thing than the "being a better self" and how Rocky was the exemple of what a better man should be. It isin't the feminist who's saying anything, it's the movie itself.
I am midway thru and i'm no closer to understanding what is '"over-rated", or who is doing the rating. I don't think there is much to learn from celebrity male actors, regardless of how well they conduct themselves in public, because to some degree they are representing a brand that is maintained by a cast of hundreds - producers, directors, agents, screenwriters, marketers, and many many meetings. Whatever Rocky came to symbolize, at base the character was a working class underdog with a dream who, despite losing the big fight, demonstrated better character than those around him and that it's not just about money and smarts (even tho of course it IS).. As regards the relationship between class, cultural capital and gender socialization, I still see that power belongs to the big swinging dicks of wall street and DC, where whatever cultural capital those white male ivy leaguers might have acquired gets spent figuring out how to skewer their opponent for all the marbles. If positive is the opposite of zero-sum capitalism and politics, it's rare behavior that cannot be rated highly enough.
I think the biggest problem for me is very obvious. Half of a man's life is about women, and men will react and adapt (generationally) to what women like and need in each generation. The problem (which is actually a good thing) is that women are no longer confined to traditional gender roles. They are not dependent on male financial security or the male lifestyle. Women are gaining significant advantages in our society in a relatively short period of time, and men simply cannot adapt fast enough.There are women who love traditional men, women who love modern, deconstructive men, women who want something in between, and plenty of women who genuinely don't even want any men; they prefer to live independently. This is very problematic because men are still held to societal standards. They are expected to "be a man," but since women no longer have a specific definition of what makes a man, men are completely lost on what they should do. Now Imagine a young, confused man without any clear model of what women want encountering a multimillionaire confidently expressing opinions as facts. It becomes quite obvious to me that this is a significant issue.
even though woman are not dependent on financial security and traditional roles they are still seeking those values for mating, so they advocate for something but pratice another thing.
Why did accepting femininity In men automatically turned into rejecting the masculinity in men , the same is happening with women , the more masculine “boss “ women is being accepting the more slander I see online for feminine women , why can’t all these co-exist together , to each is own
It’s a byproduct of capitalism. In order to be successful in corporate world exhibiting toxic masculinity is pretty much a requirement. Women are typically paid less for the same roles that their male counterparts, which is why that toxic masculinity “girl boss” persona is promoted to women. It ensures that the exploitative corporate structure is maintained, for a lower price.
Ultimately this is good advice in the sense of "if people follow this, the world will be better", but the point of "the left gives bad advice" is that we have a strange aversion to telling boys clear and obvious advice for reaching their goals. So while the left is biting their tongues because non-STEM fields are valid too and working out isn't a PERFECT remedy for EVERY guy, the right gets to brand these things as political and say "look at how the right wants you to clean your room and the left doesn't!" I guess it's slightly cynical to say we need to politicize over-generalized advice 101 like the right does, but it would absolutely stop thousands of guys going to the right.
I'm not saying I'm trying to be a bad person. But why should my motivation be about what women think. Wouldn't you think that I would want what's best for myself and not value others opinions?
Rocky is supposed to be inspirational. To be inspirational you have to be somewhat of an ideal and you therefore have to be something that is unattainable for most guys. That's not a bad thing.
I feel like this concept of Deep Masculinity, as you describe it can definitely be a force for good as long as one directly focuses it towards itself in a vacuum. The concept of fraternity, brotherhood and uplifting one's peers and placing the goal of self-help at the same level of helping your fellow man are definitely a force for good in a world where individual greed and libertarian economic ideology are so deeply ingrained. However, one can easily fall into the trap of shifting focus from "be the best man one can be" to "the only way you can be the best man you can be is by discarding women", which can easily allow men to fall into the trap of misogyny. As a guy with very deeply-ingrained mommy issues who was a sexist pig for quite some time, but managed to begin my journey to becoming a better person in March of this year, I can definitely say that giving young man a judgement-free and constructive outlet to their melancholy, such as these camps you describe, is vital for ensuring that they do not fall prey to such vile individuals like Andrew Tate.
lately i've come to realize that the nice thing about being a grown man/grown woman is that i don't need ANYBODY's permission to be ANY of those things. i have to admit that as a man, that last statement genuinely helped me be a lot less cruel to myself about not living up to really toxic gender standards. it helped me realize that i don't have to put so much of my self-worth in some idea of a person i never really liked to begin with. it helped me realize that all that matters is whether or not i am a good person (or trying my best to be one) who wants to treat people well.
What u said is totally right but I'm confused that what is a woman? What is womanhood? I see progressive Ppl saying anybody can identify as a woman or a man. And conservatives say No it is either an adult female or an adult male. I think we shouldn't assign feminine, masculine qualities like being compassionate,kind, empathetic, strong, independent to one gender. And I also think that man is a male and woman is a female just to categorize nothing more like not assigning how to act or behave in a certain way to a certain gender. Just to say or call a male a man or a female a woman. So there are two genders. So Ppl who are trans won't think that they have gender dysphoria because if there's no boxes of how to behave and act in a certain way they won't think that they are going against cultural or societal norm or they won't think that they are trapped in a wrong body right? What do you think
In my opinion, any view of masculinity that exists as a complement to feminity is already flawed by default. If you pursue "masculinity" as a way to better please women, to be more attractive to them, then it's you're on the wrong path. Just like some other people have said, I think that pursuing "healthy masculinity" should just be about trying to be a better person. Thus, to me, "masculinity" is about humility, sincerity and integrity, because those are qualities that define what it means to be a good person, in my own view. There are mainly two people who have inspired/are inspiring me into what kind of man I want to become. One is a man who wouldn't fit in the box of either "toxic masculinity" or "healthy masculinity". The other one is a girl. Both are great people.
I think the ideas of masculinity and femininity should be completely confined to a sexual dynamic in fact, as that is what they really are. Why use the terms at all if they aren't related to that, you might as well just be saying a good person but with a gendered hint. David Deida's books explore that so if you want to read up on the typical view of masculinity, check em' out if you want.
"In my opinion, any view of masculinity that exists as a complement to feminity is already flawed by default" - I'm not sure, since they're both concepts defined in complete/opposition to each other. Ultimately, they refer to sex-based stereotypes that exclude each other, so they have to refer to each other
@@rudalph5923 "I think the ideas of masculinity and femininity should be completely confined to a sexual dynamic in fact, as that is what they really are" - I think it's useful to have terms that refer to sex-based stereotypes of social roles, which is what masculine/feminine refers to. As long as you realise that males don't *have* to chase masculinity and women don't have to seek to be more feminine.
I mean, those retreats, on a basic level, seem like super healthy community and connection building things. I wouldn't make fun of them essentially -- just the ones badly led. Like, a bros only outing for reconnecting with oneself and one's community for men with mental health or confidence crises? That sounds like a potentially good and valid institution :/
I thought the same, they reminded me of when I see videos of women doing their gatherings and thinking that it looks "goofy" (?), just because I'm not used to some things. I think in both cases, we can see people in vulnerability regardless of the gender and I'm all for respecting other kind of gatherings different than men's as long as they respect ours.
About those household chore statistics, I believe that in many cases there maybe other factors at play than just male laziness. In the past generally, and in lower social classes today, we see a lot of "Lumpen narcissism", where people build their self-esteem and in some cases their entire identity around a supposedly gendered set of skills. Jerrod Carmichael has a (fairly dark) joke about this in one of his specials, about how when you see your grandma baking cookies, you may think "oh, grandma has a nice recipe and she likes baking cookies, but you don't think the dark truth: that without those cookies, she has no identity." I believe that such dynamics may very well play into these household chore statistics as well. In the eyes of Lumpen-narcissistic women, men are *not supposed* to be able to clean after themselves or to know how to separate clothes for the washing machine etc. It would threaten their (already meagre) narcissistic supply, their self-esteem and identity, their entire justification for being at all. I've experienced this first-hand in a few relationships I've been in, where some women are absolutely not happy to see a man who carries his weight in the household and knows his way around a washing machine or a dishwasher etc. To the contrary, in the worst instances, women have reacted with barely contained pure hatred when they discovered that I don't need or want some kind of second mommy to take care of me. And those men who do, they were raised by exactly that type of Lumpen-narcissistic women.
Very interesting. I remember seeing an episode of That 70s Show where Red is frustrated with Kitty for the way she served Eric food in his bed, and waited on him hand and foot as though he was perpetually sick. She did all these things because it felt nice for her to feel needed, but Red was frustrated because he felt (rightfully so) that she was just coddling Eric and enabling him to not have to grow up. This episode came to mind when you explained the concept of "Lumpen Narcissism."
@@johnwalker1058 Good media example! Re-reading my comment after half a year, I feel I should add that of course the same Lumpen narcissism exists in many men as well. With men, it often focuses on things like mechanical repair/renovation/construction skills etc, which in their mind women have "simply no business" knowing anything about because those are the areas they depend on for scrounging together what little they can in terms of their fragile self-esteem.
The stats she cites (69 to 64%) omits work done. Men simply work longer hours than women. When taken into account, the difference between gender in what you could call "work" is 5% in favor of women. So there's still a gap and women do put more work on average, but it's not the 14% she pushes in the video
I agree with this, but I will push it even further. If a woman is to hold a job and not have time to perform her woman duties, then the only thing that she can offer a man that she has time to accomplish is the act of sex, making her into akin to a prostitute, and then she absolutely need contraception, and then she absolutely needs abortion in the 1% chances the contraceptive fails, and then sterile sex gets boring after a while, thus divorce is needed. And lastly let us not forget that prostitution and feminism go hand in hand so placing women in this position doesn't sound alarms for them, I would dare even say it's the intended goal.
One thing I notice watching leftists youtubers/streamers is that a lot of their focus on healthy masculinity is still centered about how to date women without being toxic? Like their masculinity is somehow tied on if women like them or not, which I find quite shallow to be honest. It's like their main priority is to take potential incels out of the man's right activist pipeline, but that's still centering their sense of self in the other gender, and that can go wrong too.
If you ask a lot of them "describe a good man to me" they'll bring up women on the first 2 points they make. For a lot of people everything is about them.
@@BrimstoneSociety-js6po if you tell a woman that to not end up alone she needs to cater herself to men you will only get angry responses (justifiedly) now tell me why telling men the same thing is somehow good?? As a woman and a feminist I still don't think healthy masculinity should just be centered on how men behave on their romantic relationships with women. It doesn't make sense. Misogyny will not be solved like that, that just reduces women to a romantic interest, now with healthy (I guess) behaviour in romantic relationships
No, we cant drop the "masculinity" from "positive masculinity". Good man = Good person + being attractive to women (if straight) Lots of young men dont know how to make women excited about them and everyone suffers. Be respectuful, yes, but you need to do other things to make women horny. Things that are generally different from what women do to make men horny.
It’s surprising how many times in this video I felt dehumanized and a man. A ton of the points start with the premise of men being extensions of patriarchy. Or portrayed as these tricksters who flip flop ideologies to get sexual favor. When you start with the view of all men as enemies playing a game to maintain some sort of power structure, it’s hard to feel like this video is in good faith.
Woah, feminism is about mens issues, too. But should we even use the term men anymore? Is it sexist to consider masculinity? These are the rights radfems are fighting for today, apparently! 20 minutes more content than she's made about the deaths of despair, cause equality.
What I find more bizzare is that traits used to define toxic masculinity can be considered toxic in general like if anyone irrespective of gender has those traits he would be considered toxic but when it comes to positive traits and being a good man it suddenly becomes be a good person. Toxicity is masculine but positivity is gender neutral. Hypocrite Much Like lady stick to one narrative either it's toxic masculinity and positive masculinity or toxicity and positive behaviour.
I've definitely come across what you're talking about on places like Twitter but I didn't get really that from Alice's video. Despite the title coming off like it was going to be an attack, I think what she said was very level headed, it struck me as "even if you follow healthy masculinity, it's still just being true to the ideals that other people have established for you and not to yourself" and I think that message is worth hearing.
@@tiramiseratops i think she was very level headed and calm, but the way she describes men are of beings who are inherently sexist. When you look at the points through that model they make sense. However, it’s not the reality of men. Many men grow up in egalitarian homes these days, and portraying their proclivity towards feminism as a play to be “cool” or win brownie points, is to misrepresent them. Many men I know have grown up sexist, and many men don’t think twice about gender equality, because they grew up with it as an ideal. There are performative fuck boys for sure, but they are easy to spot and don’t represent us. Stop looking at all men as the enemy, guilty until proven innocent.
I feel like in this economy, I’m just lapping up the crumbs of some relatively well adjusted man who doesn’t want to erase my existence. It’s an everyday process calling myself out on my biases.
In 1700s a slave abolitionist asks a smaller landlord who rents slaves from larger landlords to change their way of cruelness towards the oppressed people white settler in America That same White Settler renter of slaves in 1700s in us - I am just trying to survive off the fewer slaves unlike the bigger landlords they have way more slaves,the us govt Takes money in the form of tax. I don't want my existence to be erased ,u know what I mean, right?😢
@Searching for Ufos Yes. The statistics bear that out. Women aren't attracted to men based on how good a person they are. The successful criminal and the banker who gets rich screwing over the ordinary person will always have more choice with women than the good person who works minimum wage and can't afford to move out of his parents place. That's a reality for men. For women, they can live with their parents and it makes no difference to their attractiveness on the dating market. They have a general preference for men who are more successful than them, earn more or at least the same - either consciously (and arguably wisely) or subconsciously thinking of his ability to provide for her future children, and her. Like men, they are also attracted to certain physical characteristics of the opposite sex, height for example. Men work to enhance their status, enhanced status increases his options with women, just like it does in the animal kingdom and among other primates. While the discussions around deconstructing notions of masculinity and femininity are interesting, one thing that is often omitted or conveniently ignored is the fact that in pretty much every mammal on earth there are differences in the natural behaviour of the male and the female, and they often tend to have differing 'roles'. It is arrogant of humanity to assume that it has ascended completely from the animal kingdom. It is clear that a great deal of how we behave, and what we believe, is due to nurture, due to how we were raised, in what culture, what were we exposed to. And this is why these discussions are worthwhile. But we cannot continue to ignore 'nature'. It must also be included in the discussion.
When we men open up, and allow ourselves to be vulnerable with someone, often, it is used as a weapon against us, in the future. A lot of women, are still attracted to the toxic traits, and often, being this "positive" man, you're talking about, is the fastest way to get friendzoned. It's nice to be idealistic, but we men, can't live outside reality. We are always forced to adapt.
Women are not attracted to abusive toxic guys? What are you on about? Men pretend to be someone they aren't to bag a women then trap the women revealing their true colors making it harder for the women to leave and in cases like that, women stay for survival since not many survive to tell the story or get beat or worse. Friendzone doesnt exist and is only for people who can't take rejection along with everything they do being transactional. Why not just speak your true intentions with someone instead of pretending to be their friend waiting for your turn. Yes, men's vulnerability can sometimes be used against them but every women I've seen do that has some form.or baggage, misogyny and lots of toxic brainwashing from OTHER MEN then it seems to be like a generational thing being passed on so both sides need to do better! Although, there are SOOO MANYY women who need that emotional connection and can be vulnerable whether with men or women because it allows them to have deeper and meaningful connections but with all these "podcast bros" and this whole thing with men thinking they know how things are when they don't is why men have not evolved for the better back in history up till now. If men were to create safe spaces within their male counterparts instead of looking to women like it's our job to fix you or the excuse of "from women it's more meaningful and better" bs alot of things would change like sorry not sorry but men put this upon themselves.
@@0fficialselena__90 I find that when women are looking for emotional connect (this is just my own experience btw) it's still not like they want you to be able to talk about yourself or your issues anyway, in plenty of cases it's more of them wanting to be able to talk about their own which is what ends up happening. So looking for emotional connect and wanting your partner to stay invulnerable is not mutually exclusive. Also I do think that if someone is propagating toxic masculinity it's their own job to do fix it first and foremost before trying to find out "who started it".
@@0fficialselena__90 theres way too many women who play second fiddle and use men they know are attracted to them while leading them on for nothing. If you think friendzone thing doesn't happen you havent observed dating closely. Theres also SOOO MANYY women who lose attraction the minute you get vulnerable. Being vulnerable for women basically just implies them talking about their problems most of the time. In the past few years most of the safe spaces of men have been destroyed and they have to resort to forming these online communities which then come off as misogynistic
I stumbled across your channel rather recently and I am rather happy I did. You seem to be capable of finding and expressing a great deal of nuance that can easily go amiss. Keep it up!
I just realized I am a man and I don't care about masculinity so why am I reading all the comments? I don't try to be masculine. I don't care if people think I am masculine or not. Worrying about that stuff ruined my 20s.
Good job! You got the point of the video! Nobody should define what a man should be, however we should collectively strive to become better people and that is not something that needs to be connected to genre
I have discovered recently. And your videos helped me a lot. I was so tired watching all debates going on now about what is a woman,transgender women in sports etc. I think you're rarely one of the Ppl I know who take nuanced thoughts on certain issues Well u said that we should break all boxes of how society has ordained men and women to behave in a certain way. And that's great idea. So my question is 1) Society set up the idea that acting in a certain way(feminine) dressing a certain way wearing makeup all these belongs to certain gender - woman. If these weren't gendered will a person or trans women think that they are trapped in a wrong body?? I mean Ppl transition and act like the opposite gender in a stereotypical way because that's the only way society will ever accept them as a man or a woman. I think if we break these boxes I don't think Ppl no longer think (trans Ppl) that they have gender dysphoria because if there are no boxes they won't go against the societal cultural norm of how a man or a woman should be right??!! I really wanna know your approach to this 2) what is a woman? I wanna know how you describe this. Adult female answer doesn't make sense I think. And are trans women women? This question too. Will u please reply or it would be great if you could make a video of these. I have been searching about this too long and I'm getting confused. Alice this is my humble request 🙏
@@AliceCappelle Men not only can but must define what a man should be. For the most part, its about universal values, but the specifics of the body can't and shouldn't be hypocritically dismissed or left out.
I really don't understand why the conclusion of so many people who are progressive is to completely disregard masculinity and just say be a good person. I have been told this by people I know in real life and several left wing content creators online and I find this conclusion unhelpful to what men in the modern day are feeling, it always made me feel dismissed and my issue thrown to the side because others are to uncomfortable to have this discussion. I have to disagree with Big Joel, saying just be a good person is the brain dead advice people on the left give that makes men not interested in being a part of the left because there is a lack of empathy in disregard a large aspect of one's identity or call it harmful. The fact that men as men are not welcome on the left makes it difficult to have an inclusive movement. If anything it was why when I was a teen I was not a feminist because of how often it just felt like men were not welcome and constantly shit on just for existing. I became left-wing because I belonged to other groups, being brown, an agonistic Muslim, questioning sexuality, being open minded to gender and sexulaity. But often it doesn't feel like my gender as a man is welcome and is regularly treated with disapproval or as an implied threat. I do believe this is an unfair double standard applied to men and reducing masculinity to just aesthetics really misses the point. It is not just to look cool but to live someone life according to how they want to be seen, their values and comfort. I guess the underlying conclusion that I get from this video and some creators like Joel and Noah is that you shouldn't try to be a good man because something about being a man is inherently bad and even when people put the disclaimer "We are not saying being a man is bad" the rest of the video's argument just amounts to saying being a man is bad indirectly, which is pretty disappointing because it doesn't really engage with masculinity in my opinon, just hand waves it away as aesthetic and coolness which is pretty reductive.
I mean, women also can benefit from not sticking to the idea of being a 'good woman' and instead striving to be a 'good person', so it works both ways. I understand how you feel, though. The problem kind of lies with sticking a set of rules or required traits to categories like man or woman in the first place - it creates 'in' and 'out' groups, and people in the 'in' group will always criticise the 'out' group in one way or another if they perceive the members of the 'out' group to have nothing in common with them. That's why, for example, in discussions about women's rights it's common to see criticism aimed at 'men' instead of 'instigators of sexual violence' etc etc, it's shorthand in a way. It's not the most helpful thing, it lacks precision. This kind of thinking that hurts you, that results in you feeling alienated from left-wing discussions because you are a man, won't really go away by sticking to the guns of maintaining the male/masculine role model. It's reinforcing the idea of 'in' and 'out' groups. It does feel like a bit of a hopeless, endless cycle though. Similar things are happening in feminism that I'm very critical of, but people might get on my ass if I mentioned them in too much detail here, lol. A lot of my issues with it stem from how it exists in the age of social media and how it reinforces and knuckles down on things to 'reclaim' them instead of approaching them critically, etc etc etc. I think this is kind of similar to wanting to cling to the idea of having a role model for masculinity. You can't really make a change by sticking to something that isn't working.
I'm a cis-ish woman, feminist, queer, pretty exasperated with men a lot of the time, but I do feel a lot of tenderness for men who are trying to figure out how to relate and how to be better. The point here definitely isn't to say men are bad or masculinity is bad, but if I'm not mistaken, you're feeling like there's a message of "masculinity/manhood is irrelevant" and that bothers you. I hope I'm understanding correctly. If that's the case, I think that's a super fair point. Gender doesn't matter for everyone, but it does for some, and that's okay. For me, I don't relate terribly strongly to the idea of being a woman, but I only use she/her pronouns for myself and anything else feels off. In your case, it seems like being a man is a part of your identity that matters, and that's totally valid. I want a world where a man, cis or trans, can feel firmly rooted in being a man without having to comply with rigid definitions - clothing, emotions, activities, interests, work. There needs to be room to wrestle with how to be a good man and a good person (because there's often a disconnect), but that shouldn't mean that you have to put that aside. I'm sure it's hard to talk about this because as women we're so used to disingenuous "what about the men" things coming up whenever women speak out, and that means we can react poorly. And women often enforce patriarchal standards on men (making fun of men for crying or whatever). Do you think discussion groups or retreats or whatever designed for supporting men in navigating all of this would be helpful? Just more acknowledgement that men are struggling too? How do we create space for men on the left, in your opinion? I don't expect you to have the answers, I'm just curious because it seems like you have put some thought into it. You really do belong, and I'm sorry it doesn't feel like there's space for you.
@@hurricanechelsea Thank you I really do appreciate your comment and that you put so much though into it. You are correct that I do feel that there's a message of "masculinity/manhood is irrelevant". My Idenitity as a man does man a lot to me and I am aware how my social presences is perceived by others and women in praticular and I am aware of the many pit falls and negative qualities associated with masculinity and how I should avoid them. Personally I don't tend to act in ways that are traditionally masculine and I am comfortable with that. I don't believe is a specific way men have to present their identity and that it's very much a personal thing. I didn't have to many good male role models myself but there are some qualities in men I look up too that I try to emulate. I did have many postive female role models and friends in my life but I did feel there was something missing which is why I look for men who possess the positive qualities I seek to embody. Regarding the left I understand the hostility and why people on the left get defensive because often people envoke "what about men" in a disingenuous way to shut down discussions of women's issue. I hope you know that it is never my intention to do so. I feel like it would be positive to allow men to discuss and deconstruct masculinity in leftist spaces. Generally, a little more empathy and goodwill towards mens and an openness to men being able to change and become better people should be adopted. I don't think this is something that will just happen but I do like approaching most people with empathy and goodwill and personally, I would like to be treated the same, just some acknowledgment that men also struggle with identity and personal growth and it is not leaser than other people's struggles. I would say the example Alice gives regarding the men's retreats in the video are kinda dumb, men don't have to wrestle or be load and violent. I think that's a very narrow way of looking at men and can be quite negative imao. I think overall men have a lot of learning to do and things to unlearn but there are good things we can take out of what it means to be both a good man and good person and there probably isn't one way to do that but I still feel there is some good that can come out of trying to be a good man or masculine person more generally.
@@Yevjer i think there definitely needs to be compassion and space for complexity for men. That doesn't mean praising the bare minimum, of course, but societal expectations of men are a lot and the journey away from that takes a lot of work and vulnerability. We can't expect more sensitivity from men and then push you away. I hate the gross stunt leftist spaces where people are more interested in their egos than any cause but that could easily seem like the only place for men on the left. The center has toothless "why can't we all just get along" ideology and the right is toxic to all living beings, so I can see how it would be hard to find a place. Anyway, you shouldn't have to leave your gender at the door if you don't want to. I have definitely already rejected hostility toward men for a while in leftist/progressive circles, especially men who are marginalized in other ways, but I'll definitely be more clear going forward that men don't have to apologize for their gender. If they're unrepentant jerks, that's different, but we can't assume that going in. The whole point is that men don't have to be that way and most probably don't want to be, so let's give everyone a chance. You didn't come off as disingenuous, i could sense your real hurt and frustration but you weren't nasty or condescending. You're probably used to having to be on the defensive and that sounds exhausting, but you sounded respectful and didn't try to minimize anyone else's problems.
Hope everyone who is battling in there own identity of what is masculine and feminine, I hope the most authentic version of you get highlighted. And the people you want gravitate to that. Love you guys
The majority of men dont intrinsically care for the cars, gymbody or the cigars. They care for the guy that gets the girl. That is what is missing from this analysis. If you can teach men how to get girl in a non toxic or dominant way you would see gender roles crumble. That really is the only path to non superficial progress. Timothy doesn't need to be traditionally masculine because his strike range (not unlike other stars) is so huge.
Wont happen, because resources like time and attention are limited, so you have to choose between people. Then you will assess who matches your preferences. Also, judging is an easy way to change others behavior, like calling out their toxic behavior.
@@revertrevertz5438 Who you are will become with time, but you are not your gender assigned at birth, your race, or your class, in example. Those are the circumstances that will hinder your full development as a person, like having to learn self-protection as a woman or racism as another race. You aren't supposed to have it tough, that's a society problem.
Rather than only focusing on being a good human being, I think it's more helpful to try to be a good human AND a good man. We still have to navigate society and relationships as men. No matter how progressive the climate becomes as a whole, on the personal level, we are engaging with other men and women who have also been taught (perhaps on some level also instinctively aware) of standards of judging men as men.
I'm literally non-binary and even I know that I have to navigate the world with the fact that I present as a man in mind. It doesn't matter if that title is never relevant to me on a personal level, I still need to navigate certain situations where being seen outwardly as a man effects the way people think about me and act towards me. I love the sentiment of trying to just be a better person, but it's impossible to just ignore gender norms when you're developing yourself because they can completely change some situations.
Lil Nas positive masculinity?! The guy who pranced about, slid down a pole into hell and gave the devil a lap dance?! Like a cross between Lilly savage and Alistair Crowley?!! Each to their own I guess.
lmao these people are delusional. What a demented video. They list people from Hollywood, AKA pedo-town. Just because they put their woke propaganda in the modern films. I watched old films like terminator and tremors and was shocked by seeing actually competent males, something the modern movies have completely removed in favour of girlbosses and male characters that cant even change a lightbulb.
@@Envy_May then what's also the point of putting certain words together to actually mean something, but it doesn't because you haven't Explained it in the first place, because to you it defeats a Phantom point, that nobody disclosed.......now that's Contradiction my friend. Phantom......just like Non binary lol
@@TheFleckboyz A man gets mad because his girlfriend cheated on him , thats toxic masculinity and wrongthing in current year. That mans needs re-education
@@TheFleckboyz well, there isn't an objective definition of "masculinity" is the thing. so "toxic masculinity" is when people care about an idea of masculinity they have so much they prioritise it over things that matter more to the detriment of themself and others. "positive masculinity" would just be finding a new personal definition that you find to be meaningful for yourself without enforcing it etc
I'm a progressive, left-leaning guy in his early 20s who is also rather athletic and I completely agree with what you said about how much value we attach to looks when it comes to toxic/positive masculinity. I always liked to experiment with my style, but obviously sometimes I just wore a hoodie and some jeans out of convenience. I did a piercing in my ear around 2,5 years ago and I have immediately noticed a huge shift in what kind of first impression I make, mostly on women (I have received not a single negative comment about it from men until I moved to Amsterdam... quite ironic considering that I lived in Warsaw before that) - it was quite visible that it made my attractiveness higher in their eyes. I assume, however, that it wasn't the piercing itself that did it, but rather the idea of a man having a pierced ear - that they are feminists, progressive, etc (which few of them even admitted when I started a conversation about it with them). Which I, personally, am, but I have also been the same way before I did it - and before that I had plenty more of situations where I approached women in social situations like in a club and it was way harder to start any discussion because I was perceived as a 'threat' way more often. I believe that it is hurtful both to men and to women. To men, because if they don't present themselves (looks-wise) as progressive, they are often considered creeps without even interacting with them. And to women, because not every man with a cardigan or a piercing is someone that you can trust.
It also forces progressive guys to struggle with the same crushing beauty standards that women have. Your average guy can't ever look like Chalamet or a Kpop boy, and will get harassed even by progressives for breaking gender norms in an "ugly" way, but literally anyone with gym access (and maybe steroids) can look like Andrew Tate.
As a quite progressive leftist (at least by US standards), I see what you are saying, but I counter with aesthetics has always been a cultural signifier of what groups or ideologies one might associate with. Like here in the US, if you see a white guy wearing khaki shorts, a white t-shirt, and a red hat, while driving a Ford F-150, you can VERY safely deduce what kind of values that person holds. Sure visual signifiers change meaning over time, but it doesn't detract from their contemporary context. But it's always good to remember there are exceptions to such biases.
@@TrepidDestiny It should at least be easy for all to attain the "necessary look" though. So many 'progressive signifiers' either depend heavily on class (accent for exmaple, as well as working in a creative field where things like piercings won't stop you from being hired), or they require a ton of effort. It's WAY easier to look like Andrew Tate than Timothee Chalamet or a Kpop boy.
@@CommunistRainbowdash A very true point. I remember when I got my tattoos, my father hemmed and hawed about how I'll "never find a respectable job!" " I wouldn't hire you if I saw that"
@@msunje9862 Those are fringe groups. How about society, big media, big tech and political parties talk about toxic femininity to the extent they talk about toxic masculinity?
Of course, men want to appeal to women, so who should you listen to, your target or your competition? I don't understand how men can be so oblivious to the obvious.
@@Valentina.Montano Men are the way they are because it's attractive to women. If you're not handsome or make a lot of money, those "positive" masculine traits will make you look gay to most women and you won't find a mate. If most women actually liked the gentle, soul-searching types, most men would actually act like that. The modern woman is in denial of what she's actually attracted to in men.
@@Valentina.Montano what? you are delusional. Stop talking about men as if they were dogs that cant control their urges and that they will do anything to satisfy women as if they were their pets. So for the same reason I ,a man, can tell women how they should behave right? Hypocrite.
I think I had a shower thought of a similar take a while ago and thought "what character traits of a healthy masculinity can only be held by men?". And imo the answer is none. Courage? Initiative? Reliability for one's family? These are just traits of a good person.
sacrifice is the main expectation thats solely masculine. like you are expected to put aside your personal desires to be able to provide opportunity for fulfillment to others, especially those less fortunate.
thats a good statring point but I have to note that any of those traits are worthless if they are not supported by often physical capability. Yes you could say that a chihauhau or a Spitz that is barking at a larger dog is corageous, but is it really meaningful? There are no traits that are exclusive to men, and almost all of them are quite variable. But the trend that alone the fact that men are on average larger/taller can have a lot of implications. There are Implications with vulnerability to diseases and syndromes that can be very impactful. People are sub consciously aware of these traits and it could be said that to capitalise on these differences is what can make a man masculine... Cheers
This may just be me, but a very large part of the reason that masculinity and role models are so heavily related to looks is because we that's the easiest thing to assess. We can't know what's inside someone else's heart but we can see how they look and how they perform masculinity.
I don't know much about the actors Jason Momoa and Henry Cavill but both are absolute tanks of manly men who display concern and feelings toward other people around them. I think they are good examples of portraying a good person and a traditionally masculine men.
I think the icon of an ideal male in modern society is one of a gentle, steadfast man, working deep within himself and outside in the world to persevere against all opposition and in pursuit of a better life and future for the people he cares about. If you're male and you're lost reading this comment, just persevere. whatever your battle is, you've got this, and you will come out a better man or die trying. both are admirable.
Rocky is not about a perfect man. Its about putting effort in what matters to you. Keanu and Tom Hardy are good role models, about the rest? It looks like a list from a girls magazine. What I find funny is that the before mentioned role models tend to stay away from modern women.
That guy chose the mooooost boooooring people to make his point, tbh. The only one who was cool was Tom Hardy, everyone else is someone I would not want to be like.
"Toxic masculinity" is a non-sensical term. Masculinity is neutral, just like femininity is. Then there is toxicity, which affects both genders equally. There are some women that are so incredibly toxic and they even seem to get applauded for it nowadays.
I respectfully disagree. I agree masculinity and femininity are neutral. Toxicity isn't gender specific either. But toxic masculinity and toxic femininity describe a specific kind of behavior. So the term makes sense. People can also be toxic in a way that's not particularly masculine or feminine.
I've struggled with masculinity for all my life. I currently identify as non binary and i think the reason i do is that it helps me to give myself permission to step outside of the small box permitted to men. Also what's the male equivalent of a Tomboy? -it basically doesn't exist because any adherence to feminine ideals is shunned. Technically it could be a "Sissy". There are other terms too but they're all slurs
once, i heard the term "tomtom" be used as a male equivalent to tomboy. idk about other peoples perspective but ive always thought that the term "sissy" was a bit derogatory; maybe it has something to do with the way we used english in australia (in particular when i was in high school)
"There are other terms too but they're all slurs" Yes, the problem is that misogyny is so rampant in our society, that there is simply no way to associate a boy/man with softness and "femininity" without him being devalued, at least in the eyes of some people. That's why there is no word that is not a slur. We will only be able to find a neutral term for a soft or feminine boy once everything soft or feminine is not despised anymore. :( Personally, I don't think "Sissyboy" is bad, because when I hear "Sissy" I always associate it with Empress Elisabeth of Austria, called Sissy, who was indeed an icon of femininity (but also of rigid discipline) in her time.
This comment is mostly my ramblings about my thoughts recently on masculinity, just FYI: I've been thinking about masculinity a lot recently and how it's such a tight box rn, especially in online spaces that I traverse in. As a trans guy I was socialized as a girl and that let me feel my feelings (to an extent) and it was easier to make friends and people came to talk to me randomly more easily (being raised as a girl isn't all positivies, but these two things were for me). Now that people see me as a man, people don't come to talk to me; men because I'm just another man (not a pretty girl anymore) and men don't know how to make socialize easily (not raised to do so), and women because there's always the chance that I'll be a creep or I'll hit on them without them wanting it, making making friends with men more dificult. That has made me feel very lonely and like I need to fit in more so people would talk to me or not be afraid when I try to talk to them. Trying to fit into a box feels bad but easier when trying to fit in and be "acceptable" to others around me (not to mention that what is "acceptable" depend so much on what the other people's beliefs in what manhood and masculinity are). Luckily for me I've met some people in the past year that have been good role models in the sense that they don't fit into these gendered boxes either and they are okay with it, and have encouraged me with my gender non-comformity, if you can call it that :D Enough of my ramblings! I think this is a great video on this topic, and I hadn't really heard of Positive masculinity before but it's got me thinking and examining things again. Thank you for making it! :D
interestingly, as a non pretty overweight cis woman, my experience has been similar. Growing up isolated because i couldn't fit in and was seen as masculine outcast or not a real girl.
damn. are women really so horrible that youve never heard of positive mascluinity before? you never heard of world war 2 where men defended wives and children? you never heard of the titanic where women and children where first? really? nah sorry I dont believe you lmao
Yes other men calling someone "a pussy", "gay" or "not a real man" is a big part of why a lot of men can't express themselves the way they want, but a much bigger reason is women doing the same, although indirectly. I can assure you, if being less masculine made men more successful with women they wouldn't give a damn about what other men think a "real man" should act or look like.
This is what progressive types refuse to understand. Men will do anything to gain success with women. The things they call toxic masculinity is so prevalent amongst men because most women simply aren't attracted to men who are feminine. But when you tell them this their assumption is that you're misogynistic, and not that anyone who has ever touched grass can see which men are getting dates and married.
It is truly across the board. Anyone who says it's men doing it, or it's women doing it, is using anecdotal evidence from their own life. It is not a gendered thing to criticize or make fun of men that don't fit some emotionally void, ripped, expendable alpha male. Because everyone benefits from this expendability, everyone is conditioned to push all men to being like this.
I think it’s kinda ridiculous that we condemn men who try to define what healthy femininity is and praise women who try to define what healthy masculinity is. I personally have grown up in a culture where I’ve been made to feel uncomfortable at the thought of telling a woman how to live her life, and I don’t see that as a negative thing, so I’d rather women stay out of this conversation on our side. There’s enough good male role models in this space that we don’t need women to try to teach us. It comes off as disingenous and trying to make masculinity into what is most advantageous for women rather than what is best for men or what is best for everyone.
why does it matter that this opinion comes from a woman? as a man i would condemn a woman that has morally and factually wrong stance on anything, including femininity, and i think that women should be able condemn men who have a wrong stance on anything either. quality of an idea is independent of who expresses it, it's a part of something called "critical thinking".
@@Daniel_Zhu_a6f Ah, Daniel, you interrupted me when I was designing better bras and period pads. As a man, I know about these things, so of course I have the most to offer to the design process. Don't get me wrong, the opposite sex should be able to have an opinion on matters of the opposite sex, its just that that opinion shouldn't position itself as the last word - which Ms. Cappelle seems to do with her phraseology.
@@bryanbell8028 it looks like your primary disagreement with the video is that it's an opinion of a woman on some male behaviors. why do you obfuscate that by talking about bra manufacturing?
As long as the opinion is good, I don’t see a problem. If a man says healthy femininity is being a girls’ girl or something I wouldn’t mind it at all..
Healthy masculinity can only really be defined by other men. The way you see Rocky or how you think Hasan is a healthy role model of masculinity shows just how disconnected women and feminists in general are when it comes to what men value and how we see other men.
What men value and see in each other ? Men value chaos and peace confuses them. That is why they value men like Andrew Tate bc they want to dominate others rather live in peace
@@msunje9862 Yes, feminists made it VERY clear that women define femininity. Do women build their understanding of femininity based on red-pill takes? Are you trolling?
@@msunje9862 if you pull your head out of your ass men value brotherhood and peace isn't an alien concept to them, you can see this across multiple form of pop culture and media.
@@msunje9862 Peace doesn't confuse men, most men want to be left alone. You legit went dumb and act like half of humans like Tate we don't. Like how the same don't like Hasan because Hasan is JUST LIKE TATE
There are videos on ytb that really got me amazed by how constructive their are. I think this one in one of them. It's great to see a deep and important topic being discussed properly. Great job!❤
...and you honestly think baing part of the problem aint her goal? People who gain their livelyhood from being the "institution to solve problem XYZ" would be out of their job pretty fucking fast if they attempred to do their job... ...as such its ludicrous to start assuming that left's (for lack of a better term) goal is equality. Especially if we are talking about pseudophilosophical people living in the press adjecent space. Goal is engagement by outrage. Compassion ran out eons ago, empathy was never even stocked.
I notice a lot of men see masculinity as an inherently toxic thing. I think positive masculinity shows men they aren’t inherently bad for being a man. But I agree that focusing on aesthetics only isn’t the solution, or even what I would call positive masculinity in a deep spiritual sense.
No one thinks 'masculinity' is an inherently toxic thing. The term 'toxic masculinity' zeroes in on certain traits: unconditional physical toughness; physical aggression; fear of/repressing emotions; discrimination against people that aren't heterosexual; hyper independence; sexual aggression or violence; anti-feminist behavior; etc etc.
@@techtutorvideos toxic femininity is a thing. But that's not what we're discussing, so I fail to see the relevance (other than your whataboutism being a cop out?)
"So wouldn't it be better if we ditched all the boxes, all the masculinity lables, all the masculinity role models, and just focused on being good human beings." THANK YOU!! I needed to hear that today. Totally agree. I hate gender roles and all the discussion on what makes a good man or woman. I've been feeling down about this lately. It's bad enough to get all the toxic masculinity from guys but even going through dating sites it comes from women too and it just seems there's no escape. I really need more of your message in my life!
yeahh i almost bought it until i saw her other videos and realized that she deffinitivelly wants to keep the female identity boxes and keeping men at the bad human box. the strategy is just as they did to slaves and natives to lose their identity so they could be conquered. no identity for you so ill give you the identity that suits me best. she is a hypocrite
I like my boxes, they make things make sense, I can adjust when needed but they are my boxes, if you blend too many things together then things get confusing, having a base understanding formed from different perspectives gives you good, strong boxes. People can’t escape this because it’s what we do, your only putting this issue into another box, compartmentalizing information into digestible bits, it’s easy this way, your seemingly more frustrated on how people treat you, I understand. We have blended so many things and now people are confused and look back to what “looked” easier and more understandable. Be strong and don’t let others pull you down, they don’t need to completely shape your world.
I hold that masculinity and femininity was clearer when communities were smaller. Masculinity and femininity are relative and vary depending on which community you are a part of. I believe this is because they have little to do with our genetics or sex. It’s simply nice to have some contrast between woman and men. In this sense masculinity and femininity are guides as how to behave in that local community. As we navigate a more globally connected world, I think it makes sense to take on “masculine” traits in response to context. Similar to how when living with someone you might start being the laundry person while they take out the trash and so on. The permanent traits you take on should be to be the type of individual you want to to be. Whether gentle, rebellious, creative etc.
Love this. I've always felt positive masculinity/femininity is still proscriptive and based on shame. Like, yo, maybe I want to be a person, not an idea. I wanna treat people good because it's good, not because it conforms to society's idea of how I should be.
I think Albert Camus was a pretty cool guy and I see him as a role model. I like how he was genuinely a rebellious person, fought for causes he believed in and stuck by his principles.
Judith Butler would have been an amazing source of theoretical framework for this video! Your arguments very much reflect the arguments she puts forward about gender and sexual categories
I'd like to build on the idea of ditching boxes; and weirdly, about asexuality and aromanticism. The pandemic was kinda hard for me (a cis(?) man) because it came with the struggle of accepting a newly found sexual (and romantic) orientation (or the lack thereof). It's what ultimately allowed me get out of my own head and re-center my values, which obviously didn't align with heteronormativity. I think Shady is right at the end when he talks about ego; though we need to separate "ego" from "confidence". Ego is representation of the self while confidence arises from the knowledge of self. We absolutely don't want people who are, struggling with self-esteem: we want confident, yet humble; individualistic yet empathetic; strong, but not dominating. What people (at large really, though we speak of men, and as we should, for masculinity is being redefined) would benefit from is, not looking outside (having role models or representation; influencers and so on) but introspection. We need men to look inward.
That's a really good point. I would add that for a lot of people in life, according to what often psychologists note, it's pretty hard or even impossible without the help of someone else, to look at themselves and what is problematic/should be change.
Asexualiy/romatictsm has nothing to do with heterosexuality it's an on/off switch when it comes to sexuality and romance as a whole. I been such for years this is from ahearing to a hypersexual idealism. Which didn't work, it left me depressed, angry and violent. Your whole ideal of people(men) is too much men look within a lot they seen a lot of darkness and people simply cannot handle it.
I would love to just not think about it at all. Not wasting a single thought on whether going to dance class because it's fun makes one less or more of a man. It's just tiring.
for it to be normal, someone has to start somewhere! i hope you can get out there and do the things that make you happy without that worry in the back of your head, some day, hopefully soon
Wow I got so many chills from that last segment with Shady about over confidence and needing to lower that ego and lower that confidence to let other people in and to feel what is happening to actually listen to other people. Well said! Well done overall you both.
Healthy masculinity isn't specific to following a moral compass, as that is indeed a human concern, though that is certainly included in it. It is more about expressing one's authentic self in an integrated way, and for many men/male-identifed, there will be certain patterns arising from that which are in common. Masculinity can be said to be the interplay between the social and biological, rather than strictly one or the other, and healthy socialization helps males learn how to productively channel their energy. Ignoring obvious differences isn't helpful for men who are wanting and needing this guidance from other men. Where this goes wrong is when it turns into shaming, man boxing, and misogyny, and that's what we want to avoid. I recommend watching videos by Chris Bale. I don't agree with everything he says, but he has some salient points.
That bit about cultural capital was so interesting. I totally see the argument that if you're poor you lack power in society and a means to build self identity. and it makes sense that one would cling to what little power they may have in the form of gender.
Have you been living under a rock? Men do this all the time. We live in a patriarchal society and have been since ancient times. Do you think gender roles, for example, were created by women? Lmao even without looking at history, there's tons of this on TH-cam.
What do you mean, there are literally hundreds of videos like that on the internet. Also women's reactions would depend on the content of the video. If the guys are giving unhelpful and sexist advice women wouldnt like it, if the guys are giving good empathetic advice then the women would like it. UnIike some people, most women care about the quality of the content and wont make a judgment solely based off of the gender of the narrator. Implying someone cant make a video like this because their gender is siIIy.
@@BB-te8tc Ridicule what they say, not "the format", the "what if same thing but gender reversed" statement is very much a valid observation in many ridiculous cases that would warrant a SWAT team if genders were reversed
1:30 to say that masculinity has been viewed to be in crisis during past times doesn't seem to contradict the idea of such an occurrence, but to support it. Also, during the 90s, healthy masculinity was more common than it is today, but that doesn't mean certain people couldn't look at the current situation at the time and predict where society was headed.
I'm 46 yo and have grown awfully tired of people telling me what to be, what to think. These trends respond to corporate and governmental interest, not with your best interest in mind. Just be a decent human being and let alpha males and femminazis to pull their eyes out.
I am from Delhi, India. The city is particularly infamous for being unsafe for women, and it's often attributed to the influx of population of migrants from poorer states. But there are men from upper classes (eg., sons of politicians). There is also a humongous class difference in the country in general. I was once sexually assaulted by a man (seemingly poor and from one of the poorer states). I'm certainly not proud of not taking any action against the guy but the fact that I couldn't have gotten him punished had he belonged to an upper class sort of held me back. The event was traumatizing but it also made me ponder over how the penal system works differently for different classes, esp in developing countries.
Man, I am just tired. I feel like it is never enough. In a few months a video might just say "thanks guys but just trying to be good person isn't enough specific issues require specific solutions". I'll be happy to be wrong but man since me too I have been asked to follow then burn then follow so much exemples of men it's tiring
"Just be a good person" will NEVER, and I repeat NEVER become an outdated message. How can it possibly? So feel safe to rely on that advice. Stop associating specific traits and values with dick/vagina and just try to be the best person you can be, you are probably doing it already, just don't put gender labels on it - that's it. There are courageous/reliable women and men, all women and men can and should be courageous/reliable, etc.
@@HelgaMoro Hey, thanks a lot for your message. Trying to be a good person will never become outdated you're right. Even though the definition of what is a good person can lightly vary from people to people can vary the core is the same. I will focus on that, thanks a lot for your patience and kind words
I think there are social concepts that effect men and women differently. The left in general gives really bland dating advice for men where as redpill (which I don't fully buy into) will own up to the differences of men and women in dating scenarios. I feel as if the left completely avoids the descriptions that every young man sees and leaves the prescriptions on how to be a man to people like Andrew Tate.
The ultimate problem is people are trying to find the true "essence" of what is being a man or a women. You can't find the essence of anything if it is only tied to the physical body which includes the mind and emotions which are also physicals things. Because in reality science will come to a point where you can swap body parts like a machine so that physically being a woman or man would become a philosophical debate of The ship of Theseus or the Theseus paradox. A discussion on true masculinity will need a discussion on the spiritual aspect or being a man or woman. Because if you don't believe in the soul or essence then we are really just organic machines.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 87 วันนี้!! คู่เอก "ก้องชัย vs โชคปรีชา"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YN6e7HVnekw/mqdefault.jpg)
The thing about Rocky is that he's not suppose to be an "Alpha male". The movie always paints him as an imperfect man down on his luck, but also a man working to the bone to improve. What was said in the film Rocky Balboa, perfectly summarizes what Rocky is all about. Especially in the first movie:
"it ain't about how hard you hit. It's about how hard you can _get_ hit and keep moving forward. How much you can _take_ and keep moving forward. That's how winning is done."
Most men can never relate to Rocky's unique experiences, but what _is_ relatable is the complete helplesslness, stress, and odysseistic hurdles that men face. And it can come in many forms like work, family, school, personal health. Anything in life, you name it. Any man who uses this movie as a testament to "you're not a real man, if you're not Rocky" is completely ridiculous. Rocky is all of us in some form or another.
real asf
True and it was even written with exactly this intention.
TBF, thats only true of the first movie, the sequels were kinda flat power fantasies, culminating with Rocky single handedly beating the USSR.
@@firebat36 Which is why Rocky IV is objectively the best entry in the series. It's science.
not to mention that (spoiler?) Rocky loses at the end
I absolutely loathe that we default to Hollywood stars and celebrities for role models.
We don't... we default to our fathers, older brothers, and friends.
The media overrepresents the influence of the media elite as an act of self aggrandizement.
The reason why is because youtube channels, blogs etc that talk about positive masculinity only get attention when they talk about public figures that are well known. It appeals to an audience that has the same references.
You're gonna have less traction with your tweets about how your uncle is a great role model
But you are right, there should be more emphasis on the fact that everyone should look around them, in their social and family circles instead of always looking up to celebrities.
Tl;dr we live in a society
this is why i "don't like" pedro pascal. i can't get over the fact that we praise a rich actor for the bare minimum. people are so obsessed with him and it makes me uncomfortable.
Welcome to people. People with influence become role models. It used to be that way with the hero-kings of mythology. It was that way with authoritarians in the 20s and 30s. If you want someone better, you need to champion them.
We need to find our own relatable examples in our own lives... or be that for other people.
Healthy masculinity, healthy femininity = being a good person!
Why does one have to be healthy to be "good"?
@@BB-te8tc This is actually an interesting point that focuses on an entirely different issue that has less visibility in our culture right now.
@@ronaiomo5956 yes.
And, well, I can't speak for everyone, but if one correlates not having a positive male role model with being an "unhealthy" male, does that mean one is "bad" from boyhood to adulthood? Wouldn't that instill learned helplessness in a developing young man and seal his fate?
I know I sound awfully defeatist, but as someone who spends a fair bit of time in both "red pill" and "leftist" spaces online, I can't count the amount of comments I've seen from men who express frustration and have "given up" because there's seemingly no way we're not going to be seen as a "threat".
@@BB-te8tc Feminist man=Low Testo=Cuck.
@kiwikemist Nazi são pagãos, eu sou católico, vai dormir.
Don't pick Rocky as an example if you never seen it(which I must assume if you got it so wrong). He's basically the antithesis of what you portray him as but actually what you're advocating for.
In addition, i would say he is the opposite of what would be an "alpha" male. Sure he has his times, but overall he values the help that his wife Adrian has done for him and equally values her as a person. In addition, got help from his rival, Apollo
@@TheSyconerd Couldn't agree more!
@@TheSyconerd But isn't there a very problematic scene in the movie were rocky forces himself on his wife/ partner against her will? Forcing her to submission. it is very rapey like in Blade Runner a very similar scene.
@@majesticmagpie4108 yes, which is why I say that he has his moments. In addition he does like glamour and expensive things ( like in rocky 2 and 4), which isn’t entirely bad but in his case it was. But honestly I just blame aged writing on that one
You seem to have misunderstood what she was using Rocky as an example of (at least, I must assume so).
She never passed a moral judgement on Rocky or gave an analysis of his character. All she said was that he is an example of hegemonic masculinity. It’s important to understand that this is not the same thing as toxic masculinity or an "alpha male." Hegemonic masculinity is simply the conventional, idealized image of what a man should be; physically powerful and attractive, mentally strong, disciplined, ambitious, heterosexual, etc. Rocky is every one of those things. The fact that he appreciates his partner or could be a good person in general does not contradict this at all.
All she was saying is that he’s one example of the conventional masculine ideal, and that society tends to police men’s behavior in order to ensure conformity to such images.
What entertains me is the idea of men in the 1700s adjusting their wigs, putting on their makeup and high heels whilst ranting that “men aren’t men anymore”
Oh how the tables have turned.
EDIT: revisiting this comment section every now and then is nothing short of joyful. It’s a little joke guys, chill out.
You mean, the 1%, the European elite that had a servant for every menial task of their lives?
yes culture changes genius
@@AC-mp7cx Calm down
Yes, everybody did that, not just the 1in 10000 people who belonged to the higher social class, and specificly dressed up like that to signal how different they are from common man. Dumb as argument.
@@AC-mp7cxcalm down
I disagree with giving “fem” and ”masc” qualities beyond outward appearances. Being “caring” shouldn’t be “fem”. It’s a state of being and shouldn’t be “gendered”. I see “toxic” masculinity and “toxic” femininity as being a sh!t person and then using your gender as an excuse. To be “healthy” fem/masc you need to be a good, balanced person (or actively trying to be) and that’s it.
Best
This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Women are more caring. It's literally in their nature, it's part of the life cycle as animals, part of the nurture thing a species needs when they have to take care of a baby for years before it can even walk independently. It's 100000% a feminine quality to be caring. Men care and can be caring. But it's not the same as women.
These weirdos tho think that being feminine and or masculine is "how you dress and look" are the dumbest bunch I've ever encountered. Being a man or woman isn't an outfit you creep
I agree with your point, but I also think that using the terms “toxic masculinity” and “toxic femininity” is still useful for the purpose of identifying trends in the kinds of toxic qualities that people who are raised in a gendered way, and are more common in one or the other gender. Because it can allow us to see the problems not as inherently their own or their parents fault, but as a societal pattern that can be changed if given the correct attention.
@@NotreDanish the only problem with using “toxic masculinity” and “toxic feminity” is that people struggle to understand what those are and what behaviors are associated with each. Toxic feminity also doesn’t really have all the toxic things women do and toxic masculinity doesn’t have all the toxic things men do
Nah cause thats not how the brain works. Gender either biologically or cultural is a large aspect of a persons identity and ignoring that is just asking for trouble and difficulty in society
It's hard not to notice that most of the "healthy masculine" role models named are all very conventionally attractive people, just with different fashion choices.
I think it takes a lot more than fashion to ensure someone has a "healthy" perspective on gender. I wish more time was spent on articulating *actual examples and quotes* from these people rather than showing pictures of them looking cute in their cardigans.
IKR? It seems like a list of someones celeb crushes, not examples of masculinity, as in the personality. Masculinity as in the female gaze is what it felt like they were referring to.
agreeeed. It literally feels like a list of teenage girls celeb crushes. Who just happen to wear clothes different from most men. That's just an example of handsome men wearing different fashion not good men.
I mean it has to start somewhere. I'm not big on this whole thing and I don't care much for celebrities but it's at least a step. If we're going from Sylvester Stallone to idk Tom Hardy it's a step in a right direction at least.
Things will always be far more excepted if done by pretty people, I see it in my country where homophobia was rampant that people took much more ease to it once certain things got normalized by celebrities. It's not really how I would want to see it but it's a huge step forward regardless.
I do agree, though I think the point was more to show that there are role models out there who don’t look or seem to act like Andrew Tate
We need multiple role models of multiple aesthetics and body types, but with good morals, who are good people cause it'll be bad to associate being a good person with a certain look and implicitly gatekeep that behind a certain gender expression (or lack thereof)
Rocky is about a lower class man who is very empathetic, kind and wants connection with others working hard to overcome horrific poverty and have a better life. I really recommend watching movies before you talk about them.
it's about the spirit...let me ask you what is the climax of the movie? that he finally gets Adrian, have a lots of friends, fans and money?
It's all symbolism, and a boxing match is as pure as it gets when it comes to symbolism. Anybody gets it, regardless of your socioeconomic/cultural status
This girl thinks she knows what positive masculinity is but she doesn't. The thumbnail said it all.
@@PinacoladaMatthewThe climax is that he went the distance, that he followed through on something. Adrian was already somebody he had in his life.
I think her opinion of the working class is fairly clear, and her choosing Rocky without qualification just confirms it (remember also with the army guy she said "Just from how he looks, you can tell he's probably going to say something problematic"). They don't have enough "cultural capital" to not be misogynists. Maybe the most condescending euphemism to say if you're poor you're stupid I've come across. And the ideal for the working classes she proposes is not Trotsky, Upton Sinclair or Sandino, but Tom Holland! They should just shut up and try to get rich while experimenting with new non-binary fashions they can't afford. Her empirical evidence is also misleading. Yes, the lower classes have more wives who do domestic chores, but the men are doing equally low-level jobs outside the home. Anyways, I personally see a woman being on Fortune 500 as more degrading to her dignity than being a housewife...
the point she's making isn't premised on how he's actually presented, though, it's how he's perceived in popular culture, which is as a masculine ideal (as demonstrated by all the whining in the comments by what I presume are thin-skinned men). Doesn't matter if this perception in pop culture is at odds with the character's 'true nature', what matters is this perception itself.
You should rewatch Rocky 1. He is cripplingly insecure, socially graceless and a constant loser in the film. He even loses the final fight to Apollo Creed. He is exploited by the mob and promoters and is damaged by their exploitation, physically and emotionally. His struggle in the film isn't becoming a great boxer, it is having self respect. I think the message that men in subordinate positions in society can have self respect is a valuable one, but I do want to point out that the race politics of the film are pretty rough.
10/10
the fact that most men kind of go through a similar struggle irl is something a feminist would never understand
@@beganitdidnt6535 we hatewatch the same channels
@@jjoohhhnn based!
@@beganitdidnt6535 Male insecurity is just as much a result of the patriarchy as oppression of women is. It is the driving force behind black pillers and incels. You wouldn't know anything about those movements would you?
The appeal of Rocky, for me at least, lies not in his unattainable achievements or physique, but instead in his determination, hard work and unswerving drive to climb from the bottom to the top of his profession. Overall, the story of Rocky isn't about being the champion per se, rather, it's about doing better. Also, he doesn't go it alone. He has a trainer, Mickey.
I thought the exact same thing specially after watching cinema therapy and their take on rocky
I think a lot of heroes and ideals aren’t meant to be attainable, they’re meant to be inspirational. A force that moves you forwards in self improvement. As you get closer to that ideal, you see results and find enjoyment (normally).
I did not agree with her when she then said that men calling other men pussies to compare to strikebreakers. As in to outcast weaker men and prevent them from joining the clique. I don’t know what kinda 90’s high school bully she got that from, but in my generation men (in person not online go touch grass) are extremely welcoming into spaces and activities to many people. Denigrating someone like that is very very rare, and I’ve never heard it used as a way yo deter others from self improvement. Only as a goading between friends when being idiots and doing dumb things while playing or hanging out.
I would also add that Rocky's relationship with Adrian is one of the better ones in cinema. It's a rare thing for a movie of this kind to have a female lead who is NOT a sex object.
I also think that a movie like Rocky will be very differently understood by women than by men.
@jasonquigley2633 It's not rary, it depends on the genre. And many movies of at least 20 years ago
You need to watch Rocky again because it seems you didn't get it. Rocky is a dirt poor tender guy that is reaching for love. Boxing is the set, is the representation of that battle for love and life that poor poeple go thru every day. It is amazing to me how it is so easy for poeple to talk about everything BUT class.
Yup, Rocky by the time he's boxing way outside of his age range that's why people say he's washed up. Rocky had to resort to being a thug for the mob to make ends meet. Rocky is such a good movie for those that came from the streets. We all wanted to be like Rocky in someway coming from poverty.
Rocky 1 is this, but you cannot argue that the subsequent movies stripped away his nuance and made him into a jingoistic ideal for Reagan-era masculinity. I think it’s fair for Alice to use Rocky in this way, considering only one of the 11,000 Rocky movies runs counter to this narrative.
Yes. Just the fact that he was so devoted to Talia Shire's Adrian - rather than, say, Farrah Fawcett or Rachel Ward - spoke VOLUMES.
I don't think this girl can do anything other than spew the standard set of feminist dogmas. And that dogma really doesn't allow for a man to ever be anything other than "toxic".
@@incurableromantic4006she's just saying that we should change our perspective from being good men to being good people.
Not to diminish anything that's been said here but it's also worth discussing the role women play in reinforcing harmful stereotypes about masculinity. Calling certain behaviours "gay" or "feminine traits", or even calling regular ways of expressing emotion or vulnerability "red flags" are arguably more damaging to a man than his mate telling him to harden up.
Women who say that probably got it from other men…. Patriarchy teaches everyone how men and women are supposed to be. The fact that they’re women does not matter, they’ve believers like men about the (false) image about what men are supposed to be.
what? women have tried for years to convince men to open up, even the alpha males of social media blame it on women that men are soft.
Exactly, infact such women also police other women for not being "feminine enough"
They often view other women as competition and hate independent women or women who support their SAH husbands financially because they want to dodge the bullet of having any economic responsibility..
most bullies of men are other men.
They say it to toughen men up because they don't feel safe with a wimp. They are correct.
Is Rocky's place as a role model really about his physique? Not his story, how through all adversity he never gave up and fought to the bitter end to achieve the goal he had put in mind? Not really wanting to be how he looks like but be how resilient he is to the hardships of society. Not a role model for men, but people in general.
Also, Rocky failed and knew he'd probably fail against Creed! Yup, the lesson to take from Rocky is the journey. Mind you, plenty people will just focus on an aesthetic, something you can show in a poster, because the journey is hard and uncertain.
Yes, but look at fanboys of Patrick Bateman.
@@MalMotorDedo Bateman is a psychopath whose adversities in his life come down to trying to behave like a functioning person whilst suppressing his unquencheable thirst for murder and to look unique among a crowd of suits.
I wouldn't say the "Bateman's literally me!" crowd reveres his figure the same way as Rocky fans view his character as a role model, to say the least hahaha
@@miguelpadeiro762 I know lol 😂 I'm just talking about totally misunderstanding a character and I feel that, same as Rambo, Rocky was more of a "he's a real man, he's stoic, he can beat anyone" type of energy. A lot of that comes from the fact that the Rocky movies are very much USA propaganda so lol
@@MalMotorDedo the story of how Rambo's tone shifted between 1 and 2 is ridiculous and I think a lot of people only saw the later movies or haven't seen them and think its all just dumb action. Its crazy to think a thoughtful movie about PTSD (although theres plenty of right wing propaganda about how soldiers were treated coming back from vietnam) was turned into totally dumb action for the rest, completely ignoring the character for the rest. Apparently the last one was supposed to be about Rambo returning home and finally talking to his father after Rambo 4 and was going to be a drama, but the studios wouldn't fund that so they just turned it into "Rambo is racist to Mexicans".
What you said about cultural capital got me thinking. I grew up in a middle-class family in suburban India, and while I do have a certain amount of cultural capital, it can't really be compared to what most boys growing up in the west possess. The school environment was a bit rough, and it was common for boys to get into fights and be beaten up by boys of rival gangs.
I was a spectacled studious kid who scored high marks and never got into that sort of trouble. And yet at many points in my life, I encountered situations where I either did get beaten up or came very close. The experiences taught me to perform toxic masculinity as a survival mechanism. Not the misogyny part of it but definitely the anger and the overconfidence.
And I'll be honest here, it unlocked doors for me. When I was a MANLY man, full of rage and confidence, who'd f*ck your shit up if you looked at him the wrong way, society gave me respect. My opinions mattered. I was treated like an adult. Nobody saw the gangly, pimply, bespectacled teenager floundering beneath. Other boys were more wary of me. They gave me space, because they thought that my confidence must be rooted in something substantial, and that I was crazy enough to hurt them and not care what happened to me.
But it sucked growing up like that. It felt like constantly being in survival mode. It was only when I got an admission to a very prestigious college that things started changing. Suddenly everyone around me had great cultural capital. They came from privilege. Physical violence was uncouth, and rage was seen as peasant behaviour. Equality was cool.
Fortunately I found a feminist Professor who shaped my understanding of the world, and what it means to be a good person. If not for her, I could've easily transitioned from performing toxic masculinity to performing positive masculinity, without any true transformation.
I'm not sure if I have any answers. But I do think that when it comes to role models, a person actually present in your life can have a far greater impact than a social media personality. We need to learn to talk to kids. And because society shouts different things at people born female and those born male, we need to learn to talk differently to them. While the end of the journey, to be a good person, might look similar for everyone, we all start in wildly different places, and so the conversations must be different as well.
This is so thoughtful! I appreciated reading about your experience, thank you for sharing.
This is incredibly thoughful. Loved the way you worded it. Growing up in Delhi has allowed me to witness this first hand, seeing my childhood friends change their entire persona when they went to school, and as soon as they were back around me, they said they felt safe in a more feminine, or you could say laid-back environment.
It was tough seeing my friends put up a fight against who they truly were because rough toxic masculinity was rewarded in our culture, and to go against it, was to go against your safety. To me, it seemed like a flight or fight response to the culture at that time. Now we have all grown up, and while some of my guy friends ended up performing toxic masculinity, like you said, it isn't hard to transition into it if you're not careful. 2 of them could break free when they entered a college in the south of India.
Maybe it had to do with different cultures, but South was more laid back and allowed my friends to simply be, not perform, not react - just be. We were also lucky to be surrounded by incredibly educated feminist professors and that shaped all of us into better human beings.
Now I don't know whether I can really blame my other friend for not being able to escape that transitioning because I do feel until he wouldn't feel safe, he wouldn't let it go. When you said we all start in wildly different places, it made me also think we all also end up with very different privileges. I can never have an answer for what is right for my friend - would he be any different had he moved with us to a college out of our home city, or would that never matter and he would personally make the choice to be toxic. I don't know.
I can definitely agree with the point of the original post, and I think that this can be linked to a lot of movements and figures that we have seen in the last decade.
you brought out vital information for this discourse
Regarding culture, same from where I came from. Poor men (and even women) are aggressive, quarrelsome, horny, foul-mouthed, wicked, etc. It's simply a survival thing. Life is tough being poor so you have to be "toxic". Rich men tend to be more polite, well mannered, controls their emotions and urges but stuck-up and arrogant. Of course there are good and bad people on both sides but their demeanor really differs. Again, it's all for survival.
The fact that masculinity is based on looks talks to me : I don’t like when people think that a lumberjacks shirt, or a sailor sweatshirt (marinière) makes a man look good. I can’t help but see that what is attractive is the background of the clothes, for example a romanticized view of a little cabin in the wood with a lumberjack chopping wood with an axe (rarely a chainsaw) or a sailor throwing a fishing net from his cute wooden boat (but not a trawler). But the locals who do those hard works are rarely considered as role model. That’s the hypocrisy of styles and cardigans…
I should mention there’s a video about working class aesthetic on this channel that does a better job than this post.
"...Blah blah blah..."
@@john99brazil ?
"Want to be less toxic? Buy this, and don't forget the accessories!"
Ultimately that's just a fashion/style trend, which come and go. People's taste in clothing doesn't automatically mean that they are reinforcing toxic masculinity, it's just clothes. Really, in the same way it's dumb to be mad over men wearing cardigans, it's pretty absurd to get mad over men wearing flannel or sailor sweatshirts because the far more important thing is how people act and treat others, not what they wear.
actually kinda based. i used to buy carhartt because it was pretty good price, flame retardant, and super durable (which i need because im a welder). in the recent years its getting way more expensive to buy and it seems to be worn by people who dont even do blue collar work. which is fine but i do feel like i has something to do with looking masculine.
Regardless of the gender politics, Stallone wrote Rocky intending it to be a love story. Boxing itself is a metaphor for Rocky finding his worth / place in society as a struggling, beat up fighter (and finds it in his family: Adrian, Mickey, his son). As the films progress it just goes to show that whatever Rocky dealt with all that mattered to him is his family.
Overconfidence is highly rewarded in our society, especially in terms of economics and finding a partner. Until you change those things, you will not get rid of toxic state of the world.
Women lecturing about masculinity is the same as men lecturing about how women should act and fell when they are having their period
@@joehobo8868 not sure what this has to do with anything but have a good day.
@@MrScientifictutor Sorry I clicked the wrong box when I sent my text. Sorry about that.
As your your post. When have male prime mates not been aggressive. Just like prime mates in the wild we have to fight to reproduce. Whether you want to believe it or not, Life for all organisms us about surviving any way you can for as long as you can until you spawn. There is no right or wrong when surviving in the jungle.
@@joehobo8868You're an idiot. I think women and men have a completely valid, and at times more valid insight into the others mindset and worldview.
@@MrScientifictutorI was going to write "When men are rewarded for showing humility, things will change" But maybe men shouldn't seek to be rewarded. Maybe men should seek growth for growth's sake. Don't change so you'll get a better job or a pretty girlfriend. Change so you can be a better person, and that's it's own reward.
7:18 I think the first Rocky movie might show a more nuanced depiction of masculinity than understood at first glance. In that movie, he’s surprisingly emotional and vulnerable despite his hard head veneer. Not that he hasn’t been used to represent toxic masculine standards on the grounds of work ethic and physical prowess, but Rocky I is genuinely such a good movie with what I view as a sensitive, nuanced, masculine character. I’d love to know what y’all think.
to expand::: it’s like Rocky is battling with toxic masculine standards as a result of his low social capital and class status before he’s famous. I’m not sure what I’d have to say about the later movies, but I find it very interesting how Rocky was tokenized as a masculine standard considering his origin story. Perhaps it’s a “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” romanticized narrative.
Totally! It's really bizarre that people use him like that. We're talking about a a character who knows he's ultimately going to fail, and who's actual victory is the journey he goes through to prepare for his fight against Creed and everything that happens along the way.
that's exactly why Rocky 1 is a timeless classic. It's about a man who is vulnerable in the face of failure, knows he is going to fail, knows he is a loser, everyone tells him he is a bum that's never going to make it out of the shipyard, and still he pushes forward with all his heart despite everything being fucked up in his life in order to follow his dream to be in the same ring as the champion.
Yeah you're totally right. Rocky is a meat head but he's a sincerely nice person. Like the type of guy you wish was your uncle and you'd tell him everything.
I agree that I don't see people using him as an example but I know why you mentioned him. We both know if Rocky came out in 2023 he'd be the poster boy for "toxic masculinity" just because of the way he looks and if you defend him people would lose their minds.
It's kinda funny how Rocky and Tate are the reverse of eachother
Traumatized veteran is harassed by cops and goes on a rampage before crying to his friend about the trauma and indifference he's been shown -- people only see how aggressive and tough he is
Asshole who built his empire on scams and human trafficking -- his fans only see how hot and successful he is
I disagree with the last part about men having to “lower” their confidence for the sake of empathy. There is a time to be confident, no matter what level it is, and there is a time to show emotion other than anger or happiness. One should not be sacrificed for the other.
Confidence and empathy are also not mutually exclusive.
I think a healthy confidence is good, but never have a toxic confidence like Andrew Tate, I think many men are so confident in themselves that they might not consider if they are in the "wrong" and show empathy, he didn't say men should have low confidence.
@@DiceDecides No such thing as toxic confidence.
True confidence roots from humility and the ability to listen.
@@nefty1792oxic confidence can exist lmao.
Confidence is a noun and toxic is an adjective. The two can be combined.
@@corydk4834can’t we just use toxic for toxic human beings? Seeing the words toxic masculinity everywhere is worrisome.
I say this as a straight guy, but I feel we're just waaaaay too hemmed in from both the leftists ("masculinity is toxic!") and the rightists ("Be a real man, pussy!"). I just want to live a nice life. I want to play my video games, go hiking on weekends, read my books, date a nice (preferably attractive and feminine) girl, and have job that doesn't treat me like shit. I want to be able to express myself emotionally. Talk about the things that frustrate me, express my love, my fear, my frustrations, my disappointments. And yet, no matter how much the world changes, I still feel like I'm expected to stay in my little box. Sure, I can now wear sequins or whatever, but if I go on a date and talk about how rough it is getting laid off, I'm still afraid (out of experience) of being called a weak loser. Women have been liberated from being domestic/sex objects and subservient, which I'm all for, but I'm still stuck with the expectation of being a "success object".
We need to get away from Masculinity is good/evil. This is a false dichotomy. Masculinity is good and evil, as is femininity. Patriarchy, toxic masculinity, etc. is a simplification, it simplifies and conceals a reality that's much more nuanced and complicated then the ideologues on either side want to acknowledge.
I love your response.
Likewise
You were doing fine but talk is cheap… I don’t want to talk about my emotions, I want control them
So they don’t control me.
And grow up, videogames are for kids and you have to work to buy yourself a house. Rent is due
Interesting comment! Men have indeed this pressure to be a "success object", in the same way women are seen as the "sex objects" or 'lesser thans." Though I have to note that women as a collective haven't yet been liberated from being domestic/sex objects etc, but I get your point. After all, don't we all just wish to be treated as human beings and live nice happy lives?
@@DonesdeMotivacion You don't have to talk about your emotions, but everyone needs a healthy emotional outlet. For some it may be sports, talking to someone, playing games, listening to music, writing or whatever. Unhealthy outlets would be abusing substances, taking your feelings out on others etc. You can't control your emotions by suppressing them, if that's what you meant. Not everyone enjoys talking about their feelings. I sure don't. But learning to handle your emotions in healthy ways is important for everyone.
6:53 With all due respect you have never watched Rocky he is a very positive masculinity figure he is caring not just a brute and his story is about overcoming his own situation not by crushing others but by bettering himself
Alice isn't interested in understanding men, she's interested in womens rights, and not womens wrongs.
Rocky is a movie that talks about poverty and class and she's not here for that kind of conversation.
Your correct bro
@ChrisJones-ek2gm this is what getting ratioed looks like scrub, do better.
@ChrisJones-ek2gmAww sad femcel. Jumps to calling insult.
It really isn't about healthy or positive or toxic masculinity as you say, it truly is about learning how to be a good, and happy person. Learning how to be accepting, and how to do what you want without judging others, or fear of being judged yourself. I do try my best. I wear cardigans because they're convenient and comfortable btw.
You don’t sound like a man.
@@Krwler You don't sound like a human.
@@Krwler just out of curiousity, how does a man sound?
@@Krwler is the concept of a man trying to be a better person feminine? What does a man sound like, then? Jeffery Dahmer?
@@Defektyd No Jeffrey Dahmer was gay
It's always been interesting to me as a man who physically fits into a lot of the traditional 'manly man' stereotypes, but doesn't behaviorally fit them in a lot of ways, that so many of my peers feel so much pressure to conform to those behavioral ideals/expectations. I never really considered what 'being a man' was, since my parents certainly never prescribed what I had to do or be interested in (aside from making me choose a sport and an instrument to play, but those kept me healthy and built character), and I guess I just kinda grew into my own particular brand of man. I really wish more people got the opportunity to do that, because I think they'd be a lot happier not having to worry about meeting some abstract, unattainable version of 'manhood'. My appearance has led people to believe certain things about me that couldn't have been further from the truth, yet simultaneously I'm certain it has afforded me more leeway in my less traditionally macho interests, because I still visually conform to more or less what's expected. Ultimately, in my mind, masculinity and femininity (of the healthy variety), should ideally be what you make of them, and should be built around the core tenet of being a good person, and treating the identities of others with the same respect you would like afforded to your own.
That sounded “healthy”
Cultural Capital
I'm the opposite. I look like a man-child with soft features and frail skinny frame with the added curse of being extremely short. I think I fit into the tough guy crowd (worked dangerous dirty heavy jobs and grew up in a poor country) but my appearance is the opposite lol. People think I'm smart educated studious type when I'm not. I wish I was one though. Nothing to be proud of being a tough guy. I'd rather grow up in a rich country, sipping my latte, going to college, do some office work, and I dunno...powder my nose. Comfort is all.
Right on brother!
you sound like a gaylord
The list of positive masculinity role models referenced seems to suggest the main attributes wanted are to be rich, famous and really, really good looking.
Do you not want to be those things tho?😂
@@sassythesasquatch4147 by their nature they aren't collectively attainable. I won't become any of those things. Few people will. And a lot of that will be down to circumstance of birth
@@calastyphon3414 literally only one of those three aren’t attainable naturally (good-looks:if you aren’t genetically gifted) but the vast majority can get themselves in fighting shape, eat healthy and consider proper skin care. You sound negative af. You probably won’t become rich because you have zero drive, fame is meaningless and looks can always be improved on, but crying about your genetics is pathetic. With unironic intention, you genuinely need to man tf up if that is how you see the world. Crying because you aren’t good-looking, haven’t made enough money (which is directly correlated to your effort) or don’t have the attention of others is quite literally the most feminine thing I’ve heard.
@@calastyphon3414 hang on, lemme get my violin.😂
@@sassythesasquatch4147 ??? Surely for a better society it's important that examination of social expectations aren't as shallow. In a world that works for working class people we should be able to look to ourselves rather than the rich.
This is of course an oversimplification but I believe this comes down to selection/attraction. Most heterosexual cisgender men have in their younger days had experiences where they were overlooked by the object of their affection because they they were not the “bad boy” There is a TH-cam clip with a young Tupac that perfectly illustrates this (Tupac On Being Nice To Women). This is why the word ’gay’ has been used to insult these men, because seeming gay means not being sexually attracted/attractive to women.
Of course sexual dynamics are complicated but we need to be more honest about attraction. There is a cliché used for western masculine heroes most of us will be familiar with “Men want to be him, women want to be with him”. This should read “Men want to be him because women want to be with him”. Men want to be desired by women so they seek out what they see as masculine role-models.
you can say just heterosexual, opposite to gays. why are you adding other made up words?
Women want to be with Harry Styles and Justin Bieber let's say, but men still call them 'gay'. Why don't most men try to be more like them? As for male masculine heroes, can you give an example? I mean most male or female characters are created by men for men in the western media, so there's a type of self-fulfilling prophecy that men create that influences a certain worldview of many men and women.
That's just romantized USAnian bully culture, no guy would get a girl behaving like a bully in El Salvador, we just hate them and nobody is supported to behaving like that, you get ostracized as a dangerous person. The bad guy story mostly applies to the USA.
Exactly, this is the main argument presented on many manosphere channels. She hasn't addressed this argument at all.
What you touched on in the "too many lies" section (being regarded as 'less of a man' for doing [X]) is not limited to men shaming men. This negative reinforcement comes from women too, and should be a huge signal that this is a problem that is not limited to one gender. When will we recognize that women also play in this dynamic?
Women will never take responsibility for their own actions.
Yes, the truth of life is that Men make judgements and shame women. Women makes judgements and shame men also. This is reality. Although most Feminists would argue it's all because of Toxic Masculinity, just take a look around in your day to day life. We all know women who judge men brutally all the time. Women i think are more judgemental overall in behaviour, while men are more controlling overall in behaviour. Obviously not every individual is like this, but in general its like this.
I mean, most people have? Ask most guys why they act or dress the way they do and they’ll say it’s to get girls
@@bluchu22 Bro, feminists are always talking about how women can do harm due to internalized sexism. You gotta get out of what ever echo chamber you're in dude
@@badaoe3stratsonly130It's because of the misrepresentation of feminism on TikTok with the "men are trrash" "i hate men" sexist nonsense. The same people who don't like actual feminists calling them out on their hypocrisy and sexism.
I suspect this new "soft" male ideal will have a similar role to the one the "girlboss" had for millennial women in the 2010s. A step in the right direction, that obviously doesn't fix all the structural problems, and that 10 years from now we will cringe at, but still a change that I am excited for. All hail the himbos and the soy boys and the books on gentle fatherhood!
New soft male= Low Testo.
It's not new in any way, it's been here for decades if not whole human history...
Nah, the Girlboss was literally a "Phallic symbol", the soyboy (soft male) doesn't the competitiveness to become akin to a Girl boss. It's literally a role reversal, the man is now the woman and the woman is now the man.
Low testosterone doesn't fucking help millenials and zoomers not become mouth breathing twigs that think whole milk is yucky
a bunch of feminist propaganda
Good insight! Definitely agree that at its core "soft male" is conservative and not radical because all it does is redefine the gender binary and the male as it functions in a capitalist culture, so it still serves the capitalist machine.
Masculinity is not ever defined in a fashion magazine.
Unless it involves the old-school wrestler Rick "The Model" Martel.
Really depends on culture. I feel that for american white guys from an older generation fashion is probably not important to them. Which is different from me as a black man also as a goth. My uncles always liked to dress well, the other black men in my mom's neighborhood also liked to dress well and be stylish. That is something I've noticed compared and so for us being well dressed is a sign of character. Jewelry and tattoos are luxury items. I'm working class so that will also be a factor.
Im from Argentina. In my high school 4th wave feminism in 2017 hit extremely hard. The student union organized a lot of debates, we went to loads of demonstrations, etc. A lot of guys suddenly started to call themselves deconstructed (in Spanish the word also exists). Turns out, for a lot of the, (immature boys) it was a way to make themselves attractive to girls. We found out not much later that most of them were calling us feminazis or whores in their private conversations… Deconstruction as a stereotype is very dangerous in that sense, it can work as a perfect mask.
male feminist and "nice guy" are the same thing
Ah yes, los aliades kjjjj
i like your comment
Across the border here in Brasil these are called "esquerdomachos" (Leftomachos for the gringo friends). Aka, guys who only espouse leftist aesthetics as a way to impress leftist women and girls, but who don't actually practice what they preach. The classic example is a guy who preaches gender equality but doesn't help out washing the dishes or cleaning the house.
@@LoganCrazyBoy oooo thank you for this information. I definitely will read more about it!
The point behind Rocky (and I suppose all role models for both sexes) isn't to act as a blueprint for what one should become. It's more that it inspires people to become better versions of themselves, as in Rocky it shows that this continued perseverance makes you achieve things you never thought you could achieve. I don't see at all how it means you have to be mean to others trying to achieve their own goals.
I don't get how feminists always see anything representing traditional masculinity as somehow bad to look up to. But men who wear dresses and have woke ideologies should be imitated. I thought the idea was to let everyone be whoever they want? This is quite absurd.
@@jamesmccloud7535 Their thinking is "let everyone be what they want but those strong men ew fuck them. They are toxic obviously how can they not be"
@@jamesmccloud7535 she is literally not saying that. The point is how people just look at the "macho" thing than the "being a better self" and how Rocky was the exemple of what a better man should be. It isin't the feminist who's saying anything, it's the movie itself.
I am midway thru and i'm no closer to understanding what is '"over-rated", or who is doing the rating. I don't think there is much to learn from celebrity male actors, regardless of how well they conduct themselves in public, because to some degree they are representing a brand that is maintained by a cast of hundreds - producers, directors, agents, screenwriters, marketers, and many many meetings. Whatever Rocky came to symbolize, at base the character was a working class underdog with a dream who, despite losing the big fight, demonstrated better character than those around him and that it's not just about money and smarts (even tho of course it IS).. As regards the relationship between class, cultural capital and gender socialization, I still see that power belongs to the big swinging dicks of wall street and DC, where whatever cultural capital those white male ivy leaguers might have acquired gets spent figuring out how to skewer their opponent for all the marbles. If positive is the opposite of zero-sum capitalism and politics, it's rare behavior that cannot be rated highly enough.
yeah bad video
I think the biggest problem for me is very obvious. Half of a man's life is about women, and men will react and adapt (generationally) to what women like and need in each generation. The problem (which is actually a good thing) is that women are no longer confined to traditional gender roles. They are not dependent on male financial security or the male lifestyle. Women are gaining significant advantages in our society in a relatively short period of time, and men simply cannot adapt fast enough.There are women who love traditional men, women who love modern, deconstructive men, women who want something in between, and plenty of women who genuinely don't even want any men; they prefer to live independently. This is very problematic because men are still held to societal standards. They are expected to "be a man," but since women no longer have a specific definition of what makes a man, men are completely lost on what they should do. Now Imagine a young, confused man without any clear model of what women want encountering a multimillionaire confidently expressing opinions as facts. It becomes quite obvious to me that this is a significant issue.
This is spot on imo
even though woman are not dependent on financial security and traditional roles they are still seeking those values for mating, so they advocate for something but pratice another thing.
Brother you have spit some truth here. Gonna comment so I can come back to this when I see the whole vid
yeah the problem is feminist destroying working family values
Damn, I think you nailed it dude
Why did accepting femininity In men automatically turned into rejecting the masculinity in men , the same is happening with women , the more masculine “boss “ women is being accepting the more slander I see online for feminine women , why can’t all these co-exist together , to each is own
Everybody has masculine and feminine elements within them. The mark of maturity is for these elements to work in harmony rather than in conflict.
Literally no one is slandering feminine women 90% of women's online content is them smearing makeup all over themselves
Because the powers that be, are misanthropes that hate humans
Because masulinity is partially defined by what is *not* feminine.
It’s a byproduct of capitalism. In order to be successful in corporate world exhibiting toxic masculinity is pretty much a requirement. Women are typically paid less for the same roles that their male counterparts, which is why that toxic masculinity “girl boss” persona is promoted to women. It ensures that the exploitative corporate structure is maintained, for a lower price.
Focus on being a good person, not a good man/woman. Love that, Alice!
Ultimately this is good advice in the sense of "if people follow this, the world will be better", but the point of "the left gives bad advice" is that we have a strange aversion to telling boys clear and obvious advice for reaching their goals.
So while the left is biting their tongues because non-STEM fields are valid too and working out isn't a PERFECT remedy for EVERY guy, the right gets to brand these things as political and say "look at how the right wants you to clean your room and the left doesn't!"
I guess it's slightly cynical to say we need to politicize over-generalized advice 101 like the right does, but it would absolutely stop thousands of guys going to the right.
@@CommunistRainbowdash You raise a very good point.
I mean it is good advice but it's too simple in my opinion. Men and women go through unique struggles and challenges.
what is a good person?? that is open to interpretation... alot of terrible people thought that they were "good people"
I'm not saying I'm trying to be a bad person. But why should my motivation be about what women think. Wouldn't you think that I would want what's best for myself and not value others opinions?
Rocky is supposed to be inspirational. To be inspirational you have to be somewhat of an ideal and you therefore have to be something that is unattainable for most guys. That's not a bad thing.
I feel like this concept of Deep Masculinity, as you describe it can definitely be a force for good as long as one directly focuses it towards itself in a vacuum. The concept of fraternity, brotherhood and uplifting one's peers and placing the goal of self-help at the same level of helping your fellow man are definitely a force for good in a world where individual greed and libertarian economic ideology are so deeply ingrained. However, one can easily fall into the trap of shifting focus from "be the best man one can be" to "the only way you can be the best man you can be is by discarding women", which can easily allow men to fall into the trap of misogyny. As a guy with very deeply-ingrained mommy issues who was a sexist pig for quite some time, but managed to begin my journey to becoming a better person in March of this year, I can definitely say that giving young man a judgement-free and constructive outlet to their melancholy, such as these camps you describe, is vital for ensuring that they do not fall prey to such vile individuals like Andrew Tate.
lately i've come to realize that the nice thing about being a grown man/grown woman is that i don't need ANYBODY's permission to be ANY of those things. i have to admit that as a man, that last statement genuinely helped me be a lot less cruel to myself about not living up to really toxic gender standards. it helped me realize that i don't have to put so much of my self-worth in some idea of a person i never really liked to begin with. it helped me realize that all that matters is whether or not i am a good person (or trying my best to be one) who wants to treat people well.
What u said is totally right but I'm confused that what is a woman?
What is womanhood?
I see progressive Ppl saying anybody can identify as a woman or a man. And conservatives say No it is either an adult female or an adult male.
I think we shouldn't assign feminine, masculine qualities like being compassionate,kind, empathetic, strong, independent to one gender. And I also think that man is a male and woman is a female just to categorize nothing more like not assigning how to act or behave in a certain way to a certain gender. Just to say or call a male a man or a female a woman. So there are two genders. So Ppl who are trans won't think that they have gender dysphoria because if there's no boxes of how to behave and act in a certain way they won't think that they are going against cultural or societal norm or they won't think that they are trapped in a wrong body right? What do you think
In my opinion, any view of masculinity that exists as a complement to feminity is already flawed by default. If you pursue "masculinity" as a way to better please women, to be more attractive to them, then it's you're on the wrong path.
Just like some other people have said, I think that pursuing "healthy masculinity" should just be about trying to be a better person. Thus, to me, "masculinity" is about humility, sincerity and integrity, because those are qualities that define what it means to be a good person, in my own view.
There are mainly two people who have inspired/are inspiring me into what kind of man I want to become. One is a man who wouldn't fit in the box of either "toxic masculinity" or "healthy masculinity". The other one is a girl. Both are great people.
I think the ideas of masculinity and femininity should be completely confined to a sexual dynamic in fact, as that is what they really are. Why use the terms at all if they aren't related to that, you might as well just be saying a good person but with a gendered hint. David Deida's books explore that so if you want to read up on the typical view of masculinity, check em' out if you want.
"In my opinion, any view of masculinity that exists as a complement to feminity is already flawed by default" - I'm not sure, since they're both concepts defined in complete/opposition to each other. Ultimately, they refer to sex-based stereotypes that exclude each other, so they have to refer to each other
@@rudalph5923 "I think the ideas of masculinity and femininity should be completely confined to a sexual dynamic in fact, as that is what they really are" - I think it's useful to have terms that refer to sex-based stereotypes of social roles, which is what masculine/feminine refers to. As long as you realise that males don't *have* to chase masculinity and women don't have to seek to be more feminine.
Good Sir You Are Rather Quite Based. 👌👏
yeah, I agree. Interesting for sure.@@hjones4922
I mean, those retreats, on a basic level, seem like super healthy community and connection building things. I wouldn't make fun of them essentially -- just the ones badly led. Like, a bros only outing for reconnecting with oneself and one's community for men with mental health or confidence crises? That sounds like a potentially good and valid institution :/
I thought the same, they reminded me of when I see videos of women doing their gatherings and thinking that it looks "goofy" (?), just because I'm not used to some things. I think in both cases, we can see people in vulnerability regardless of the gender and I'm all for respecting other kind of gatherings different than men's as long as they respect ours.
She is homophobic too.
Is she trying to say that a gay man cannot be masculine?
That sound really homophobic to me lmao.
About those household chore statistics, I believe that in many cases there maybe other factors at play than just male laziness. In the past generally, and in lower social classes today, we see a lot of "Lumpen narcissism", where people build their self-esteem and in some cases their entire identity around a supposedly gendered set of skills.
Jerrod Carmichael has a (fairly dark) joke about this in one of his specials, about how when you see your grandma baking cookies, you may think "oh, grandma has a nice recipe and she likes baking cookies, but you don't think the dark truth: that without those cookies, she has no identity."
I believe that such dynamics may very well play into these household chore statistics as well. In the eyes of Lumpen-narcissistic women, men are *not supposed* to be able to clean after themselves or to know how to separate clothes for the washing machine etc. It would threaten their (already meagre) narcissistic supply, their self-esteem and identity, their entire justification for being at all.
I've experienced this first-hand in a few relationships I've been in, where some women are absolutely not happy to see a man who carries his weight in the household and knows his way around a washing machine or a dishwasher etc. To the contrary, in the worst instances, women have reacted with barely contained pure hatred when they discovered that I don't need or want some kind of second mommy to take care of me. And those men who do, they were raised by exactly that type of Lumpen-narcissistic women.
Very interesting.
I remember seeing an episode of That 70s Show where Red is frustrated with Kitty for the way she served Eric food in his bed, and waited on him hand and foot as though he was perpetually sick. She did all these things because it felt nice for her to feel needed, but Red was frustrated because he felt (rightfully so) that she was just coddling Eric and enabling him to not have to grow up. This episode came to mind when you explained the concept of "Lumpen Narcissism."
@@johnwalker1058 Good media example!
Re-reading my comment after half a year, I feel I should add that of course the same Lumpen narcissism exists in many men as well. With men, it often focuses on things like mechanical repair/renovation/construction skills etc, which in their mind women have "simply no business" knowing anything about because those are the areas they depend on for scrounging together what little they can in terms of their fragile self-esteem.
The stats she cites (69 to 64%) omits work done. Men simply work longer hours than women. When taken into account, the difference between gender in what you could call "work" is 5% in favor of women. So there's still a gap and women do put more work on average, but it's not the 14% she pushes in the video
I agree with this, but I will push it even further. If a woman is to hold a job and not have time to perform her woman duties, then the only thing that she can offer a man that she has time to accomplish is the act of sex, making her into akin to a prostitute, and then she absolutely need contraception, and then she absolutely needs abortion in the 1% chances the contraceptive fails, and then sterile sex gets boring after a while, thus divorce is needed. And lastly let us not forget that prostitution and feminism go hand in hand so placing women in this position doesn't sound alarms for them, I would dare even say it's the intended goal.
One thing I notice watching leftists youtubers/streamers is that a lot of their focus on healthy masculinity is still centered about how to date women without being toxic? Like their masculinity is somehow tied on if women like them or not, which I find quite shallow to be honest. It's like their main priority is to take potential incels out of the man's right activist pipeline, but that's still centering their sense of self in the other gender, and that can go wrong too.
If you ask a lot of them "describe a good man to me" they'll bring up women on the first 2 points they make. For a lot of people everything is about them.
Bunch of "nice guy" beta simps
The average man doesn't want to end up alone. SHOCKING, WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN THIS.
@@BrimstoneSociety-js6po if you tell a woman that to not end up alone she needs to cater herself to men you will only get angry responses (justifiedly) now tell me why telling men the same thing is somehow good?? As a woman and a feminist I still don't think healthy masculinity should just be centered on how men behave on their romantic relationships with women. It doesn't make sense. Misogyny will not be solved like that, that just reduces women to a romantic interest, now with healthy (I guess) behaviour in romantic relationships
No, we cant drop the "masculinity" from "positive masculinity".
Good man = Good person + being attractive to women (if straight)
Lots of young men dont know how to make women excited about them and everyone suffers. Be respectuful, yes, but you need to do other things to make women horny. Things that are generally different from what women do to make men horny.
It’s surprising how many times in this video I felt dehumanized and a man. A ton of the points start with the premise of men being extensions of patriarchy. Or portrayed as these tricksters who flip flop ideologies to get sexual favor. When you start with the view of all men as enemies playing a game to maintain some sort of power structure, it’s hard to feel like this video is in good faith.
Woah, feminism is about mens issues, too. But should we even use the term men anymore? Is it sexist to consider masculinity? These are the rights radfems are fighting for today, apparently! 20 minutes more content than she's made about the deaths of despair, cause equality.
What I find more bizzare is that traits used to define toxic masculinity can be considered toxic in general like if anyone irrespective of gender has those traits he would be considered toxic but when it comes to positive traits and being a good man it suddenly becomes be a good person.
Toxicity is masculine but positivity is gender neutral.
Hypocrite Much
Like lady stick to one narrative either it's toxic masculinity and positive masculinity or toxicity and positive behaviour.
I've definitely come across what you're talking about on places like Twitter but I didn't get really that from Alice's video. Despite the title coming off like it was going to be an attack, I think what she said was very level headed, it struck me as "even if you follow healthy masculinity, it's still just being true to the ideals that other people have established for you and not to yourself" and I think that message is worth hearing.
@@tiramiseratops i think she was very level headed and calm, but the way she describes men are of beings who are inherently sexist. When you look at the points through that model they make sense. However, it’s not the reality of men. Many men grow up in egalitarian homes these days, and portraying their proclivity towards feminism as a play to be “cool” or win brownie points, is to misrepresent them. Many men I know have grown up sexist, and many men don’t think twice about gender equality, because they grew up with it as an ideal. There are performative fuck boys for sure, but they are easy to spot and don’t represent us. Stop looking at all men as the enemy, guilty until proven innocent.
@@Parrot3054 wow I didn’t even catch that one. I 100% agree
aw hell yeah a video that makes me feel productive despite not finishing my paper
lmaoo
lmao
People aren’t being compassionate to men or anyone online though.
I feel like in this economy, I’m just lapping up the crumbs of some relatively well adjusted man who doesn’t want to erase my existence. It’s an everyday process calling myself out on my biases.
the bar is astonishingly low
why men would want to erase women when it's women they want is beyond confusing.
@@freedomgoddess they don't want women. they NEED women. and they resent them for it.
In 1700s a slave abolitionist asks a smaller landlord who rents slaves from larger landlords to change their way of cruelness towards the oppressed people
white settler in America
That same White Settler renter of slaves in 1700s in us -
I am just trying to survive off the fewer slaves unlike the bigger landlords they have way more slaves,the us govt
Takes money in the form of tax.
I don't want my existence to be erased ,u know what I mean, right?😢
@Searching for Ufos Yes. The statistics bear that out.
Women aren't attracted to men based on how good a person they are. The successful criminal and the banker who gets rich screwing over the ordinary person will always have more choice with women than the good person who works minimum wage and can't afford to move out of his parents place. That's a reality for men. For women, they can live with their parents and it makes no difference to their attractiveness on the dating market.
They have a general preference for men who are more successful than them, earn more or at least the same - either consciously (and arguably wisely) or subconsciously thinking of his ability to provide for her future children, and her.
Like men, they are also attracted to certain physical characteristics of the opposite sex, height for example.
Men work to enhance their status, enhanced status increases his options with women, just like it does in the animal kingdom and among other primates.
While the discussions around deconstructing notions of masculinity and femininity are interesting, one thing that is often omitted or conveniently ignored is the fact that in pretty much every mammal on earth there are differences in the natural behaviour of the male and the female, and they often tend to have differing 'roles'.
It is arrogant of humanity to assume that it has ascended completely from the animal kingdom.
It is clear that a great deal of how we behave, and what we believe, is due to nurture, due to how we were raised, in what culture, what were we exposed to. And this is why these discussions are worthwhile. But we cannot continue to ignore 'nature'. It must also be included in the discussion.
When we men open up, and allow ourselves to be vulnerable with someone, often, it is used as a weapon against us, in the future. A lot of women, are still attracted to the toxic traits, and often, being this "positive" man, you're talking about, is the fastest way to get friendzoned. It's nice to be idealistic, but we men, can't live outside reality. We are always forced to adapt.
Friend or even physically assaulted
Women are not attracted to abusive toxic guys? What are you on about? Men pretend to be someone they aren't to bag a women then trap the women revealing their true colors making it harder for the women to leave and in cases like that, women stay for survival since not many survive to tell the story or get beat or worse. Friendzone doesnt exist and is only for people who can't take rejection along with everything they do being transactional. Why not just speak your true intentions with someone instead of pretending to be their friend waiting for your turn. Yes, men's vulnerability can sometimes be used against them but every women I've seen do that has some form.or baggage, misogyny and lots of toxic brainwashing from OTHER MEN then it seems to be like a generational thing being passed on so both sides need to do better! Although, there are SOOO MANYY women who need that emotional connection and can be vulnerable whether with men or women because it allows them to have deeper and meaningful connections but with all these "podcast bros" and this whole thing with men thinking they know how things are when they don't is why men have not evolved for the better back in history up till now. If men were to create safe spaces within their male counterparts instead of looking to women like it's our job to fix you or the excuse of "from women it's more meaningful and better" bs alot of things would change like sorry not sorry but men put this upon themselves.
Know that you can use that friendzone to your advantage to meet more woman in her social circle and find a more dominant strong alpha woman.
@@0fficialselena__90 I find that when women are looking for emotional connect (this is just my own experience btw) it's still not like they want you to be able to talk about yourself or your issues anyway, in plenty of cases it's more of them wanting to be able to talk about their own which is what ends up happening. So looking for emotional connect and wanting your partner to stay invulnerable is not mutually exclusive.
Also I do think that if someone is propagating toxic masculinity it's their own job to do fix it first and foremost before trying to find out "who started it".
@@0fficialselena__90 theres way too many women who play second fiddle and use men they know are attracted to them while leading them on for nothing. If you think friendzone thing doesn't happen you havent observed dating closely. Theres also SOOO MANYY women who lose attraction the minute you get vulnerable. Being vulnerable for women basically just implies them talking about their problems most of the time. In the past few years most of the safe spaces of men have been destroyed and they have to resort to forming these online communities which then come off as misogynistic
I stumbled across your channel rather recently and I am rather happy I did. You seem to be capable of finding and expressing a great deal of nuance that can easily go amiss. Keep it up!
I just realized I am a man and I don't care about masculinity so why am I reading all the comments? I don't try to be masculine. I don't care if people think I am masculine or not. Worrying about that stuff ruined my 20s.
Repeat after me: No woman should define how to be a man
No man should tell how a woman should be a woman
Good job! You got the point of the video! Nobody should define what a man should be, however we should collectively strive to become better people and that is not something that needs to be connected to genre
@@AliceCappelle yes we need to get better together, with mutual respect.
I have discovered recently. And your videos helped me a lot. I was so tired watching all debates going on now about what is a woman,transgender women in sports etc.
I think you're rarely one of the Ppl I know who take nuanced thoughts on certain issues
Well u said that we should break all boxes of how society has ordained men and women to behave in a certain way. And that's great idea. So my question is
1) Society set up the idea that acting in a certain way(feminine) dressing a certain way wearing makeup all these belongs to certain gender - woman. If these weren't gendered will a person or trans women think that they are trapped in a wrong body??
I mean Ppl transition and act like the opposite gender in a stereotypical way because that's the only way society will ever accept them as a man or a woman. I think if we break these boxes I don't think Ppl no longer think (trans Ppl) that they have gender dysphoria because if there are no boxes they won't go against the societal cultural norm of how a man or a woman should be right??!!
I really wanna know your approach to this
2) what is a woman? I wanna know how you describe this. Adult female answer doesn't make sense I think. And are trans women women? This question too. Will u please reply or it would be great if you could make a video of these.
I have been searching about this too long and I'm getting confused.
Alice this is my humble request 🙏
@@AliceCappelle Men not only can but must define what a man should be. For the most part, its about universal values, but the specifics of the body can't and shouldn't be hypocritically dismissed or left out.
@@AliceCappelleYour opinion of better is fucking up our country more
More beta males more mass third world migration etc
Go be better on your own
I really don't understand why the conclusion of so many people who are progressive is to completely disregard masculinity and just say be a good person. I have been told this by people I know in real life and several left wing content creators online and I find this conclusion unhelpful to what men in the modern day are feeling, it always made me feel dismissed and my issue thrown to the side because others are to uncomfortable to have this discussion. I have to disagree with Big Joel, saying just be a good person is the brain dead advice people on the left give that makes men not interested in being a part of the left because there is a lack of empathy in disregard a large aspect of one's identity or call it harmful. The fact that men as men are not welcome on the left makes it difficult to have an inclusive movement. If anything it was why when I was a teen I was not a feminist because of how often it just felt like men were not welcome and constantly shit on just for existing. I became left-wing because I belonged to other groups, being brown, an agonistic Muslim, questioning sexuality, being open minded to gender and sexulaity. But often it doesn't feel like my gender as a man is welcome and is regularly treated with disapproval or as an implied threat. I do believe this is an unfair double standard applied to men and reducing masculinity to just aesthetics really misses the point. It is not just to look cool but to live someone life according to how they want to be seen, their values and comfort. I guess the underlying conclusion that I get from this video and some creators like Joel and Noah is that you shouldn't try to be a good man because something about being a man is inherently bad and even when people put the disclaimer "We are not saying being a man is bad" the rest of the video's argument just amounts to saying being a man is bad indirectly, which is pretty disappointing because it doesn't really engage with masculinity in my opinon, just hand waves it away as aesthetic and coolness which is pretty reductive.
I mean, women also can benefit from not sticking to the idea of being a 'good woman' and instead striving to be a 'good person', so it works both ways. I understand how you feel, though. The problem kind of lies with sticking a set of rules or required traits to categories like man or woman in the first place - it creates 'in' and 'out' groups, and people in the 'in' group will always criticise the 'out' group in one way or another if they perceive the members of the 'out' group to have nothing in common with them. That's why, for example, in discussions about women's rights it's common to see criticism aimed at 'men' instead of 'instigators of sexual violence' etc etc, it's shorthand in a way. It's not the most helpful thing, it lacks precision.
This kind of thinking that hurts you, that results in you feeling alienated from left-wing discussions because you are a man, won't really go away by sticking to the guns of maintaining the male/masculine role model. It's reinforcing the idea of 'in' and 'out' groups. It does feel like a bit of a hopeless, endless cycle though. Similar things are happening in feminism that I'm very critical of, but people might get on my ass if I mentioned them in too much detail here, lol. A lot of my issues with it stem from how it exists in the age of social media and how it reinforces and knuckles down on things to 'reclaim' them instead of approaching them critically, etc etc etc. I think this is kind of similar to wanting to cling to the idea of having a role model for masculinity. You can't really make a change by sticking to something that isn't working.
I'm a cis-ish woman, feminist, queer, pretty exasperated with men a lot of the time, but I do feel a lot of tenderness for men who are trying to figure out how to relate and how to be better. The point here definitely isn't to say men are bad or masculinity is bad, but if I'm not mistaken, you're feeling like there's a message of "masculinity/manhood is irrelevant" and that bothers you. I hope I'm understanding correctly.
If that's the case, I think that's a super fair point. Gender doesn't matter for everyone, but it does for some, and that's okay. For me, I don't relate terribly strongly to the idea of being a woman, but I only use she/her pronouns for myself and anything else feels off. In your case, it seems like being a man is a part of your identity that matters, and that's totally valid.
I want a world where a man, cis or trans, can feel firmly rooted in being a man without having to comply with rigid definitions - clothing, emotions, activities, interests, work. There needs to be room to wrestle with how to be a good man and a good person (because there's often a disconnect), but that shouldn't mean that you have to put that aside.
I'm sure it's hard to talk about this because as women we're so used to disingenuous "what about the men" things coming up whenever women speak out, and that means we can react poorly. And women often enforce patriarchal standards on men (making fun of men for crying or whatever).
Do you think discussion groups or retreats or whatever designed for supporting men in navigating all of this would be helpful? Just more acknowledgement that men are struggling too? How do we create space for men on the left, in your opinion?
I don't expect you to have the answers, I'm just curious because it seems like you have put some thought into it.
You really do belong, and I'm sorry it doesn't feel like there's space for you.
@@hurricanechelsea Thank you I really do appreciate your comment and that you put so much though into it. You are correct that I do feel that there's a message of "masculinity/manhood is irrelevant". My Idenitity as a man does man a lot to me and I am aware how my social presences is perceived by others and women in praticular and I am aware of the many pit falls and negative qualities associated with masculinity and how I should avoid them. Personally I don't tend to act in ways that are traditionally masculine and I am comfortable with that. I don't believe is a specific way men have to present their identity and that it's very much a personal thing. I didn't have to many good male role models myself but there are some qualities in men I look up too that I try to emulate. I did have many postive female role models and friends in my life but I did feel there was something missing which is why I look for men who possess the positive qualities I seek to embody.
Regarding the left I understand the hostility and why people on the left get defensive because often people envoke "what about men" in a disingenuous way to shut down discussions of women's issue. I hope you know that it is never my intention to do so. I feel like it would be positive to allow men to discuss and deconstruct masculinity in leftist spaces. Generally, a little more empathy and goodwill towards mens and an openness to men being able to change and become better people should be adopted. I don't think this is something that will just happen but I do like approaching most people with empathy and goodwill and personally, I would like to be treated the same, just some acknowledgment that men also struggle with identity and personal growth and it is not leaser than other people's struggles.
I would say the example Alice gives regarding the men's retreats in the video are kinda dumb, men don't have to wrestle or be load and violent. I think that's a very narrow way of looking at men and can be quite negative imao.
I think overall men have a lot of learning to do and things to unlearn but there are good things we can take out of what it means to be both a good man and good person and there probably isn't one way to do that but I still feel there is some good that can come out of trying to be a good man or masculine person more generally.
@@Yevjer i think there definitely needs to be compassion and space for complexity for men. That doesn't mean praising the bare minimum, of course, but societal expectations of men are a lot and the journey away from that takes a lot of work and vulnerability. We can't expect more sensitivity from men and then push you away.
I hate the gross stunt leftist spaces where people are more interested in their egos than any cause but that could easily seem like the only place for men on the left. The center has toothless "why can't we all just get along" ideology and the right is toxic to all living beings, so I can see how it would be hard to find a place.
Anyway, you shouldn't have to leave your gender at the door if you don't want to. I have definitely already rejected hostility toward men for a while in leftist/progressive circles, especially men who are marginalized in other ways, but I'll definitely be more clear going forward that men don't have to apologize for their gender. If they're unrepentant jerks, that's different, but we can't assume that going in. The whole point is that men don't have to be that way and most probably don't want to be, so let's give everyone a chance.
You didn't come off as disingenuous, i could sense your real hurt and frustration but you weren't nasty or condescending. You're probably used to having to be on the defensive and that sounds exhausting, but you sounded respectful and didn't try to minimize anyone else's problems.
Big Joel and Noah Samson should only be taking seriously if they give advice on being unfunny annoying look at me im so quirky ugly "men"
Hope everyone who is battling in there own identity of what is masculine and feminine, I hope the most authentic version of you get highlighted. And the people you want gravitate to that. Love you guys
The majority of men dont intrinsically care for the cars, gymbody or the cigars. They care for the guy that gets the girl. That is what is missing from this analysis. If you can teach men how to get girl in a non toxic or dominant way you would see gender roles crumble. That really is the only path to non superficial progress. Timothy doesn't need to be traditionally masculine because his strike range (not unlike other stars) is so huge.
Timmy is popular because it's the latest tiktok fad of 16 year old girls to gush over twinks
I dream of a world where people aren't judged by things they were born in.
That´s litterally who you are. You are judged for who you are.
🤣🤣🤣
Wont happen, because resources like time and attention are limited, so you have to choose between people. Then you will assess who matches your preferences.
Also, judging is an easy way to change others behavior, like calling out their toxic behavior.
@@revertrevertz5438 Who you are will become with time, but you are not your gender assigned at birth, your race, or your class, in example. Those are the circumstances that will hinder your full development as a person, like having to learn self-protection as a woman or racism as another race. You aren't supposed to have it tough, that's a society problem.
@@fieteferrum3032 I can dream...
When Alice uploads, you know it's going to be a banger
Rather than only focusing on being a good human being, I think it's more helpful to try to be a good human AND a good man. We still have to navigate society and relationships as men. No matter how progressive the climate becomes as a whole, on the personal level, we are engaging with other men and women who have also been taught (perhaps on some level also instinctively aware) of standards of judging men as men.
Based.
Feminism does not concede the possibility of being male and "good".
"All intercourse is grape"
I'm literally non-binary and even I know that I have to navigate the world with the fact that I present as a man in mind. It doesn't matter if that title is never relevant to me on a personal level, I still need to navigate certain situations where being seen outwardly as a man effects the way people think about me and act towards me. I love the sentiment of trying to just be a better person, but it's impossible to just ignore gender norms when you're developing yourself because they can completely change some situations.
Lil Nas positive masculinity?! The guy who pranced about, slid down a pole into hell and gave the devil a lap dance?! Like a cross between Lilly savage and Alistair Crowley?!! Each to their own I guess.
lmao these people are delusional. What a demented video. They list people from Hollywood, AKA pedo-town.
Just because they put their woke propaganda in the modern films.
I watched old films like terminator and tremors and was shocked by seeing actually competent males, something the modern movies have completely removed in favour of girlbosses and male characters that cant even change a lightbulb.
"Let's define our terms"
Proceeds to not define masculinity.
wouldn't that kinda defeat the point
@Envy May how can someone understand toxic- or positive-masculinity if they don't understand masculinity first?
@@Envy_May then what's also the point of putting certain words together to actually mean something, but it doesn't because you haven't Explained it in the first place, because to you it defeats a Phantom point, that nobody disclosed.......now that's Contradiction my friend. Phantom......just like Non binary lol
@@TheFleckboyz A man gets mad because his girlfriend cheated on him , thats toxic masculinity and wrongthing in current year. That mans needs re-education
@@TheFleckboyz well, there isn't an objective definition of "masculinity" is the thing. so "toxic masculinity" is when people care about an idea of masculinity they have so much they prioritise it over things that matter more to the detriment of themself and others. "positive masculinity" would just be finding a new personal definition that you find to be meaningful for yourself without enforcing it etc
I'm a progressive, left-leaning guy in his early 20s who is also rather athletic and I completely agree with what you said about how much value we attach to looks when it comes to toxic/positive masculinity. I always liked to experiment with my style, but obviously sometimes I just wore a hoodie and some jeans out of convenience. I did a piercing in my ear around 2,5 years ago and I have immediately noticed a huge shift in what kind of first impression I make, mostly on women (I have received not a single negative comment about it from men until I moved to Amsterdam... quite ironic considering that I lived in Warsaw before that) - it was quite visible that it made my attractiveness higher in their eyes. I assume, however, that it wasn't the piercing itself that did it, but rather the idea of a man having a pierced ear - that they are feminists, progressive, etc (which few of them even admitted when I started a conversation about it with them). Which I, personally, am, but I have also been the same way before I did it - and before that I had plenty more of situations where I approached women in social situations like in a club and it was way harder to start any discussion because I was perceived as a 'threat' way more often.
I believe that it is hurtful both to men and to women. To men, because if they don't present themselves (looks-wise) as progressive, they are often considered creeps without even interacting with them. And to women, because not every man with a cardigan or a piercing is someone that you can trust.
It also forces progressive guys to struggle with the same crushing beauty standards that women have. Your average guy can't ever look like Chalamet or a Kpop boy, and will get harassed even by progressives for breaking gender norms in an "ugly" way, but literally anyone with gym access (and maybe steroids) can look like Andrew Tate.
I can see your weak physiognomy
As a quite progressive leftist (at least by US standards), I see what you are saying, but I counter with aesthetics has always been a cultural signifier of what groups or ideologies one might associate with.
Like here in the US, if you see a white guy wearing khaki shorts, a white t-shirt, and a red hat, while driving a Ford F-150, you can VERY safely deduce what kind of values that person holds. Sure visual signifiers change meaning over time, but it doesn't detract from their contemporary context.
But it's always good to remember there are exceptions to such biases.
@@TrepidDestiny It should at least be easy for all to attain the "necessary look" though. So many 'progressive signifiers' either depend heavily on class (accent for exmaple, as well as working in a creative field where things like piercings won't stop you from being hired), or they require a ton of effort. It's WAY easier to look like Andrew Tate than Timothee Chalamet or a Kpop boy.
@@CommunistRainbowdash A very true point. I remember when I got my tattoos, my father hemmed and hawed about how I'll "never find a respectable job!" " I wouldn't hire you if I saw that"
We have to start talking about toxic femininity.
We already do, red pill and manophere talk about it day and night
@@msunje9862 Those are fringe groups. How about society, big media, big tech and political parties talk about toxic femininity to the extent they talk about toxic masculinity?
One issue I see is that the idea of an "ideal" or "respectable" man seems to largely stem from the perspective of women or feminine men.
Of course, men want to appeal to women, so who should you listen to, your target or your competition? I don't understand how men can be so oblivious to the obvious.
@@Valentina.Montano Men are the way they are because it's attractive to women. If you're not handsome or make a lot of money, those "positive" masculine traits will make you look gay to most women and you won't find a mate. If most women actually liked the gentle, soul-searching types, most men would actually act like that.
The modern woman is in denial of what she's actually attracted to in men.
@@Valentina.Montano what? you are delusional.
Stop talking about men as if they were dogs that cant control their urges and that they will do anything to satisfy women as if they were their pets.
So for the same reason I ,a man, can tell women how they should behave right?
Hypocrite.
I think I had a shower thought of a similar take a while ago and thought "what character traits of a healthy masculinity can only be held by men?". And imo the answer is none. Courage? Initiative? Reliability for one's family? These are just traits of a good person.
You are correct, but the degree and appliability are expected to be different for both sexes.
sacrifice is the main expectation thats solely masculine. like you are expected to put aside your personal desires to be able to provide opportunity for fulfillment to others, especially those less fortunate.
thats a good statring point but I have to note that any of those traits are worthless if they are not supported by often physical capability. Yes you could say that a chihauhau or a Spitz that is barking at a larger dog is corageous, but is it really meaningful?
There are no traits that are exclusive to men, and almost all of them are quite variable. But the trend that alone the fact that men are on average larger/taller can have a lot of implications. There are Implications with vulnerability to diseases and syndromes that can be very impactful. People are sub consciously aware of these traits and it could be said that to capitalise on these differences is what can make a man masculine... Cheers
@@saturationstation1446 because mothers don't do that? 🤔
do you think there are traits that are specific to men? do you think men and women are different?
This may just be me, but a very large part of the reason that masculinity and role models are so heavily related to looks is because we that's the easiest thing to assess. We can't know what's inside someone else's heart but we can see how they look and how they perform masculinity.
I don't know much about the actors Jason Momoa and Henry Cavill but both are absolute tanks of manly men who display concern and feelings toward other people around them. I think they are good examples of portraying a good person and a traditionally masculine men.
True. I good indicator that Momoa and Cavill are good is that the people that hate them are universally repulsive and vile.
No, Henry cavill is kinda misogynist
@@alpacacomentadora413 No he isn't. He just didn't allow himself to be walked all over by an ignorant and arrogant writer that happened to be female.
I think the icon of an ideal male in modern society is one of a gentle, steadfast man, working deep within himself and outside in the world to persevere against all opposition and in pursuit of a better life and future for the people he cares about. If you're male and you're lost reading this comment, just persevere. whatever your battle is, you've got this, and you will come out a better man or die trying. both are admirable.
Ooooh, I'm a story writer. I'm gonna use this my boy strong wording.
it’s also important to note that being a good person starts with what’s inside not what you look like
Agreed
Problem:
Humans are not telepaths...
Rocky is not about a perfect man. Its about putting effort in what matters to you. Keanu and Tom Hardy are good role models, about the rest? It looks like a list from a girls magazine. What I find funny is that the before mentioned role models tend to stay away from modern women.
4:51 the cut to your reaction on hearing "Prince Harry" was top-notch editing lmao 😆
That guy chose the mooooost boooooring people to make his point, tbh.
The only one who was cool was Tom Hardy, everyone else is someone I would not want to be like.
"Toxic masculinity" is a non-sensical term. Masculinity is neutral, just like femininity is. Then there is toxicity, which affects both genders equally. There are some women that are so incredibly toxic and they even seem to get applauded for it nowadays.
I respectfully disagree. I agree masculinity and femininity are neutral. Toxicity isn't gender specific either. But toxic masculinity and toxic femininity describe a specific kind of behavior. So the term makes sense. People can also be toxic in a way that's not particularly masculine or feminine.
I've struggled with masculinity for all my life. I currently identify as non binary and i think the reason i do is that it helps me to give myself permission to step outside of the small box permitted to men.
Also what's the male equivalent of a Tomboy? -it basically doesn't exist because any adherence to feminine ideals is shunned. Technically it could be a "Sissy". There are other terms too but they're all slurs
once, i heard the term "tomtom" be used as a male equivalent to tomboy. idk about other peoples perspective but ive always thought that the term "sissy" was a bit derogatory; maybe it has something to do with the way we used english in australia (in particular when i was in high school)
"There are other terms too but they're all slurs"
Yes, the problem is that misogyny is so rampant in our society, that there is simply no way to associate a boy/man with softness and "femininity" without him being devalued, at least in the eyes of some people. That's why there is no word that is not a slur. We will only be able to find a neutral term for a soft or feminine boy once everything soft or feminine is not despised anymore. :(
Personally, I don't think "Sissyboy" is bad, because when I hear "Sissy" I always associate it with Empress Elisabeth of Austria, called Sissy, who was indeed an icon of femininity (but also of rigid discipline) in her time.
misogyny is the issue, men cant be feminine because feminine bad and woman bad
Isn't it what "queer" means..? 🤔
@@movement2contactqueer is also a slur. It's widely used now, because it's been reclaimed historically, but it's still a slur
This comment is mostly my ramblings about my thoughts recently on masculinity, just FYI:
I've been thinking about masculinity a lot recently and how it's such a tight box rn, especially in online spaces that I traverse in. As a trans guy I was socialized as a girl and that let me feel my feelings (to an extent) and it was easier to make friends and people came to talk to me randomly more easily (being raised as a girl isn't all positivies, but these two things were for me). Now that people see me as a man, people don't come to talk to me; men because I'm just another man (not a pretty girl anymore) and men don't know how to make socialize easily (not raised to do so), and women because there's always the chance that I'll be a creep or I'll hit on them without them wanting it, making making friends with men more dificult.
That has made me feel very lonely and like I need to fit in more so people would talk to me or not be afraid when I try to talk to them. Trying to fit into a box feels bad but easier when trying to fit in and be "acceptable" to others around me (not to mention that what is "acceptable" depend so much on what the other people's beliefs in what manhood and masculinity are). Luckily for me I've met some people in the past year that have been good role models in the sense that they don't fit into these gendered boxes either and they are okay with it, and have encouraged me with my gender non-comformity, if you can call it that :D
Enough of my ramblings!
I think this is a great video on this topic, and I hadn't really heard of Positive masculinity before but it's got me thinking and examining things again. Thank you for making it! :D
interestingly, as a non pretty overweight cis woman, my experience has been similar. Growing up isolated because i couldn't fit in and was seen as masculine outcast or not a real girl.
damn. are women really so horrible that youve never heard of positive mascluinity before? you never heard of world war 2 where men defended wives and children? you never heard of the titanic where women and children where first? really? nah sorry I dont believe you lmao
@@komal146I'm AFAB that is on the trans/nonbinary spectrum as of rn and like I feel the same way
Yes other men calling someone "a pussy", "gay" or "not a real man" is a big part of why a lot of men can't express themselves the way they want, but a much bigger reason is women doing the same, although indirectly. I can assure you, if being less masculine made men more successful with women they wouldn't give a damn about what other men think a "real man" should act or look like.
FACTS, bue women don't have any power according to Alice, they need men to take the responsibility for both genders and fix it to benefit women.
People would say act more man like if you weren't being feminine enough
ehh nah, I wont do just anything to get women lol especially these days with modern women. a lot of women need to grow up a bit
This is what progressive types refuse to understand. Men will do anything to gain success with women. The things they call toxic masculinity is so prevalent amongst men because most women simply aren't attracted to men who are feminine. But when you tell them this their assumption is that you're misogynistic, and not that anyone who has ever touched grass can see which men are getting dates and married.
It is truly across the board. Anyone who says it's men doing it, or it's women doing it, is using anecdotal evidence from their own life. It is not a gendered thing to criticize or make fun of men that don't fit some emotionally void, ripped, expendable alpha male. Because everyone benefits from this expendability, everyone is conditioned to push all men to being like this.
I think it’s kinda ridiculous that we condemn men who try to define what healthy femininity is and praise women who try to define what healthy masculinity is. I personally have grown up in a culture where I’ve been made to feel uncomfortable at the thought of telling a woman how to live her life, and I don’t see that as a negative thing, so I’d rather women stay out of this conversation on our side. There’s enough good male role models in this space that we don’t need women to try to teach us. It comes off as disingenous and trying to make masculinity into what is most advantageous for women rather than what is best for men or what is best for everyone.
why does it matter that this opinion comes from a woman? as a man i would condemn a woman that has morally and factually wrong stance on anything, including femininity, and i think that women should be able condemn men who have a wrong stance on anything either. quality of an idea is independent of who expresses it, it's a part of something called "critical thinking".
@@Daniel_Zhu_a6f👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
@@Daniel_Zhu_a6f Ah, Daniel, you interrupted me when I was designing better bras and period pads. As a man, I know about these things, so of course I have the most to offer to the design process. Don't get me wrong, the opposite sex should be able to have an opinion on matters of the opposite sex, its just that that opinion shouldn't position itself as the last word - which Ms. Cappelle seems to do with her phraseology.
@@bryanbell8028 it looks like your primary disagreement with the video is that it's an opinion of a woman on some male behaviors. why do you obfuscate that by talking about bra manufacturing?
As long as the opinion is good, I don’t see a problem. If a man says healthy femininity is being a girls’ girl or something I wouldn’t mind it at all..
Healthy masculinity can only really be defined by other men. The way you see Rocky or how you think Hasan is a healthy role model of masculinity shows just how disconnected women and feminists in general are when it comes to what men value and how we see other men.
Is healthy femininity only defined by women then ? How come men in red pill talk about what is women is and is not all day ?
What men value and see in each other ? Men value chaos and peace confuses them. That is why they value men like Andrew Tate bc they want to dominate others rather live in peace
@@msunje9862 Yes, feminists made it VERY clear that women define femininity.
Do women build their understanding of femininity based on red-pill takes?
Are you trolling?
@@msunje9862 if you pull your head out of your ass men value brotherhood and peace isn't an alien concept to them, you can see this across multiple form of pop culture and media.
@@msunje9862 Peace doesn't confuse men, most men want to be left alone. You legit went dumb and act like half of humans like Tate we don't. Like how the same don't like Hasan because Hasan is JUST LIKE TATE
Happy to see that you involve more research and scientific terms in your video! That sets your videos apart and increases the quality/credibility
I am an absolute fan of Alice’s little smirk during a video 🥺❤️🩹
There are videos on ytb that really got me amazed by how constructive their are. I think this one in one of them. It's great to see a deep and important topic being discussed properly. Great job!❤
Being a good person requires all to embody some masculine ideals such as discipline and self reliance
You're not allowed to define masculinity anymore, don't even use the word, it's ick to alice.
Making fun of men's retreats, no matter how misguided they are, is policing gender and is part of the problem.
...and you honestly think baing part of the problem aint her goal?
People who gain their livelyhood from being the "institution to solve problem XYZ" would be out of their job pretty fucking fast if they attempred to do their job...
...as such its ludicrous to start assuming that left's (for lack of a better term) goal is equality.
Especially if we are talking about pseudophilosophical people living in the press adjecent space.
Goal is engagement by outrage.
Compassion ran out eons ago, empathy was never even stocked.
I notice a lot of men see masculinity as an inherently toxic thing. I think positive masculinity shows men they aren’t inherently bad for being a man. But I agree that focusing on aesthetics only isn’t the solution, or even what I would call positive masculinity in a deep spiritual sense.
Men see Masculinity as Toxic? MEN? 🤨.....sorry if you can't hear it, but I'm Tearing my Vocal Box by saying *'MEN?*
No one thinks 'masculinity' is an inherently toxic thing. The term 'toxic masculinity' zeroes in on certain traits: unconditional physical toughness; physical aggression; fear of/repressing emotions; discrimination against people that aren't heterosexual; hyper independence; sexual aggression or violence; anti-feminist behavior; etc etc.
@@alexandermasters7827 who are you lying to ? 3rd wave feminists and soyboys shame men for just being men .
@@alexandermasters7827 Everything you said isn't masculine in the slightist I've seen women do all the above
@@techtutorvideos toxic femininity is a thing. But that's not what we're discussing, so I fail to see the relevance (other than your whataboutism being a cop out?)
"So wouldn't it be better if we ditched all the boxes, all the masculinity lables, all the masculinity role models, and just focused on being good human beings." THANK YOU!! I needed to hear that today. Totally agree. I hate gender roles and all the discussion on what makes a good man or woman. I've been feeling down about this lately. It's bad enough to get all the toxic masculinity from guys but even going through dating sites it comes from women too and it just seems there's no escape. I really need more of your message in my life!
This reminded me of a JJK shitpost. This one character hates femboys cuz they keep honey trapping him into gay sex
I don't understand. You just don't want there to be gender?
yeahh i almost bought it until i saw her other videos and realized that she deffinitivelly wants to keep the female identity boxes and keeping men at the bad human box. the strategy is just as they did to slaves and natives to lose their identity so they could be conquered. no identity for you so ill give you the identity that suits me best. she is a hypocrite
Reform Gender roles, don’t just destroy them
I like my boxes, they make things make sense, I can adjust when needed but they are my boxes, if you blend too many things together then things get confusing, having a base understanding formed from different perspectives gives you good, strong boxes. People can’t escape this because it’s what we do, your only putting this issue into another box, compartmentalizing information into digestible bits, it’s easy this way, your seemingly more frustrated on how people treat you, I understand. We have blended so many things and now people are confused and look back to what “looked” easier and more understandable. Be strong and don’t let others pull you down, they don’t need to completely shape your world.
I hold that masculinity and femininity was clearer when communities were smaller. Masculinity and femininity are relative and vary depending on which community you are a part of. I believe this is because they have little to do with our genetics or sex. It’s simply nice to have some contrast between woman and men.
In this sense masculinity and femininity are guides as how to behave in that local community.
As we navigate a more globally connected world, I think it makes sense to take on “masculine” traits in response to context. Similar to how when living with someone you might start being the laundry person while they take out the trash and so on. The permanent traits you take on should be to be the type of individual you want to to be. Whether gentle, rebellious, creative etc.
Love this. I've always felt positive masculinity/femininity is still proscriptive and based on shame. Like, yo, maybe I want to be a person, not an idea. I wanna treat people good because it's good, not because it conforms to society's idea of how I should be.
Yet she tells us how we should behave and who to look up to😂
Its ways the guys that are build like chopsticks😂
I think Albert Camus was a pretty cool guy and I see him as a role model. I like how he was genuinely a rebellious person, fought for causes he believed in and stuck by his principles.
He was horrible to women, his wife tried to kill herself because of him (Francine Camus). His private life was a mess just like his philosophy
@@lelz0394 nobody's perfect
Judith Butler would have been an amazing source of theoretical framework for this video! Your arguments very much reflect the arguments she puts forward about gender and sexual categories
I'd like to build on the idea of ditching boxes; and weirdly, about asexuality and aromanticism.
The pandemic was kinda hard for me (a cis(?) man) because it came with the struggle of accepting a newly found sexual (and romantic) orientation (or the lack thereof). It's what ultimately allowed me get out of my own head and re-center my values, which obviously didn't align with heteronormativity. I think Shady is right at the end when he talks about ego; though we need to separate "ego" from "confidence". Ego is representation of the self while confidence arises from the knowledge of self. We absolutely don't want people who are, struggling with self-esteem: we want confident, yet humble; individualistic yet empathetic; strong, but not dominating.
What people (at large really, though we speak of men, and as we should, for masculinity is being redefined) would benefit from is, not looking outside (having role models or representation; influencers and so on) but introspection. We need men to look inward.
That's a really good point. I would add that for a lot of people in life, according to what often psychologists note, it's pretty hard or even impossible without the help of someone else, to look at themselves and what is problematic/should be change.
Asexualiy/romatictsm has nothing to do with heterosexuality it's an on/off switch when it comes to sexuality and romance as a whole. I been such for years this is from ahearing to a hypersexual idealism. Which didn't work, it left me depressed, angry and violent. Your whole ideal of people(men) is too much men look within a lot they seen a lot of darkness and people simply cannot handle it.
Girl, you are brilliant. I love your post-structuralist, multifaceted approach to pop culture, it's a breath of fresh air as far as video essays go.
Same garbage rethoric repeated everywhere is a breath of fresh air?
@@deeznutz8320 what would an insightful take on the 'positive masculinity' trope be in your opinion?
I would love to just not think about it at all. Not wasting a single thought on whether going to dance class because it's fun makes one less or more of a man.
It's just tiring.
for it to be normal, someone has to start somewhere! i hope you can get out there and do the things that make you happy without that worry in the back of your head, some day, hopefully soon
@@sclumptuous the problem is that it gets TIRESOME being a "rebel"...
Wow I got so many chills from that last segment with Shady about over confidence and needing to lower that ego and lower that confidence to let other people in and to feel what is happening to actually listen to other people. Well said! Well done overall you both.
If you do that people will devour you. Do not take advice from this channel.
Healthy masculinity isn't specific to following a moral compass, as that is indeed a human concern, though that is certainly included in it. It is more about expressing one's authentic self in an integrated way, and for many men/male-identifed, there will be certain patterns arising from that which are in common. Masculinity can be said to be the interplay between the social and biological, rather than strictly one or the other, and healthy socialization helps males learn how to productively channel their energy. Ignoring obvious differences isn't helpful for men who are wanting and needing this guidance from other men. Where this goes wrong is when it turns into shaming, man boxing, and misogyny, and that's what we want to avoid. I recommend watching videos by Chris Bale. I don't agree with everything he says, but he has some salient points.
Alice went back and forth so many times I could not grasp what her point was.
It's simple women like her hate straight white men.
That bit about cultural capital was so interesting. I totally see the argument that if you're poor you lack power in society and a means to build self identity. and it makes sense that one would cling to what little power they may have in the form of gender.
i love how you explain the words you use to explain
hope that made sense
I wonder what the reaction of women would be if a man made a video explaining what women should aspire to be and what value system they should adopt.
Have you been living under a rock? Men do this all the time. We live in a patriarchal society and have been since ancient times. Do you think gender roles, for example, were created by women? Lmao even without looking at history, there's tons of this on TH-cam.
What do you mean, there are literally hundreds of videos like that on the internet. Also women's reactions would depend on the content of the video. If the guys are giving unhelpful and sexist advice women wouldnt like it, if the guys are giving good empathetic advice then the women would like it.
UnIike some people, most women care about the quality of the content and wont make a judgment solely based off of the gender of the narrator.
Implying someone cant make a video like this because their gender is siIIy.
what if same thing but gender reversed
There. I posted it again!
There are books like the bible doing just that. 😂
@@BB-te8tc Ridicule what they say, not "the format", the "what if same thing but gender reversed" statement is very much a valid observation in many ridiculous cases that would warrant a SWAT team if genders were reversed
1:30 to say that masculinity has been viewed to be in crisis during past times doesn't seem to contradict the idea of such an occurrence, but to support it. Also, during the 90s, healthy masculinity was more common than it is today, but that doesn't mean certain people couldn't look at the current situation at the time and predict where society was headed.
I'm 46 yo and have grown awfully tired of people telling me what to be, what to think. These trends respond to corporate and governmental interest, not with your best interest in mind. Just be a decent human being and let alpha males and femminazis to pull their eyes out.
Well said
FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT!
I am from Delhi, India. The city is particularly infamous for being unsafe for women, and it's often attributed to the influx of population of migrants from poorer states. But there are men from upper classes (eg., sons of politicians). There is also a humongous class difference in the country in general.
I was once sexually assaulted by a man (seemingly poor and from one of the poorer states). I'm certainly not proud of not taking any action against the guy but the fact that I couldn't have gotten him punished had he belonged to an upper class sort of held me back.
The event was traumatizing but it also made me ponder over how the penal system works differently for different classes, esp in developing countries.
Man, I am just tired. I feel like it is never enough. In a few months a video might just say "thanks guys but just trying to be good person isn't enough specific issues require specific solutions". I'll be happy to be wrong but man since me too I have been asked to follow then burn then follow so much exemples of men it's tiring
"Just be a good person" will NEVER, and I repeat NEVER become an outdated message. How can it possibly? So feel safe to rely on that advice. Stop associating specific traits and values with dick/vagina and just try to be the best person you can be, you are probably doing it already, just don't put gender labels on it - that's it. There are courageous/reliable women and men, all women and men can and should be courageous/reliable, etc.
@@HelgaMoro Hey, thanks a lot for your message. Trying to be a good person will never become outdated you're right. Even though the definition of what is a good person can lightly vary from people to people can vary the core is the same. I will focus on that, thanks a lot for your patience and kind words
I think there are social concepts that effect men and women differently. The left in general gives really bland dating advice for men where as redpill (which I don't fully buy into) will own up to the differences of men and women in dating scenarios. I feel as if the left completely avoids the descriptions that every young man sees and leaves the prescriptions on how to be a man to people like Andrew Tate.
I can't believe you weren't flamed by the radfem freaks in the comments.
The ultimate problem is people are trying to find the true "essence" of what is being a man or a women. You can't find the essence of anything if it is only tied to the physical body which includes the mind and emotions which are also physicals things. Because in reality science will come to a point where you can swap body parts like a machine so that physically being a woman or man would become a philosophical debate of The ship of Theseus or the Theseus paradox. A discussion on true masculinity will need a discussion on the spiritual aspect or being a man or woman. Because if you don't believe in the soul or essence then we are really just organic machines.
Nobody knows what is "to be human", for starters...
If you can define masculinity I'd be willing to entertain that conversation.