[TF2] Just What Exactly is Wrong With Sniper? - A Balance Discussion
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 2 มิ.ย. 2024
- Just don't get shot idiot lmoa just dodge the bullets lol
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Music used:
Deus Ex OST - UNATCO, NYC Streets, VersaLife, DuClare Chateau, OceanLab
Clips used:
M1 Garand Ping
One Punch Man
Timestamps:
0:00 Introduction
2:20 Sniper's Role And Function
3:30 Map Design's Effect On Sniper
7:05 Sustainability And Lack Of Punishment
9:30 Potential Solutions
10:57 General Frustrations
13:36 My Outdated Thoughts On Quickscoping
14:30 Conclusion
15:41 Credits
16:04 Bonus Clip
Your boy is back with the spicy takes. I don't think Sniper is that bad, but he's still got problems. A lot of classes have problems, Spy is bad in general, Medic's unlocks are all straight upgrades except the Medigun, it's been almost 4 years and I still can't see through Pyro's flames or tell when it's a friendly or enemy Pyro coming around the corner, but Sniper is the one people want to talk about right now and I've got 400 hours with him, so here's my piece. I think I did an alright job with my suggested balance changes to make Sniper a bit more fair and fun to fight, but I don't know how they'd work in practice, and I think my "universal Machina tracers" suggestion is a bit much, something more like the effect the Classic has would be just as good. People are going to be upset no matter what the deal is because a lot of people just hate Snipers in general in games, I've heard people complain that Sniper's range is too long and he also shouldn't be able to kill people at close range in the same breath and all I hear is "I don't want Sniper to be in the game anymore," which I think is reductive. I feel as though my suggestions let Snipers like me still be aggressive for short bursts, and long range sedentary Snipers are a bit more fair to fight, even on bigger maps. I'd like to see these changes implemented and playtested in some community mod, I think that would be neat to mess around with and see how we can fine-tune this. Who knows, it might even make garbage meme maps like Turbine just a bit more tolerable to play on. Probably not though. - เกม
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![[TF2] The Huntsman VS The Sniper Rifle - A Balance Discussion](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/vQdbmPC-jbE/mqdefault.jpg)
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Whats wrong with sniper is that he pisses too much.
He's good at pissing people off
Dont bully him his kidneys are too big
@@unluckycatfish6866 He should’ve thought about that BEFORE taking those Saxton Hale pills.
nah he took those jarate pills.
he has an UTI lol
What makes sniper a pain to balance is one simple fact: he's a long range specialist in a game where every other class excels at close to mid range.
Well... pyro is pretty good at killing snipers.
@@ninja6245-real everybody is good at killing bad snipers. Bad snipers are not a problem though.
@@ninja6245-real darwins danger shield
they just didnt bother, at all. valve added crutches for sniper against his counters and a weapon that encourages selfish use of the jarate, running at enemies like an idiot, and getting crits for it.
@@ninja6245-real Even without the Darwin's, hitting anything other than the Scorch Shot at that range tends to be incredibly difficult because the Sniper has ages to see the projectile coming and just sidestep; and it's also really risky because he can quickscope you faster than the flare can reach him.
“As long as there are two classes in the game, someone is going to want someone nerfed” Great line
This Is a Gold comment in a bucket of hate...
He wasn’t lying when he said “I have a plan to kill everyone you meet..” lol
Yes but this doesnt justify neglecting to nerf classes going well beyond their role like Sniper. This is why people has kunai and deadringer spy and Wrangler engineer that make Heavy more redundant than he already is by being countered by sniper.
And when there is only one class, people will be arguing about weapons
I feel like they got the huntsman and rifle ammo count backwards. The huntsman’s low ammo count forces you to stay in range of an ammo box or dispenser, even though it’s meant to make the sniper more of an aggressive frontliner.
Hell, sniper's model only has space for him to carry about 8-12 bullets anyway
I actually think the ammo for the huntsman is perfect, You're inclined to play more aggressively, but you have to make your shots count-- in that way, huntsman is still a lot like its more long-range contemporaries, rewarding good aim above all else.
@@DropsOfMars i don't think that works for the huntsman. in general it's not very good at anything. The projectile flies too slowly to be able to hit anything at long range but it's still got all the other stats of a long range pick weapon, super high damage headshots, really long time between shots, low ammo count etc. they should've given it like half the damage but way faster turnaround between shots, and maybe a 25-50 health increase so you can be more of a frontline picker.
@@liamreeves344Still think the Darwin's would be perfect if it just gave you +25 hp and nothing else
@@DropsOfMars also prevents the lower skill choke point spamming play style from being viable in every situation
The main issue I have with Sniper is that his counter-play is practically non-existent when the Sniper is good enough due to the amount of damage a quickscope does. Quickscoping is the most powerful thing in a Sniper's arsenal by far. It's one thing to be able to use your map knowledge to stare down a chokepoint or a shutter door, but that's basically optional when you can just go from walking, jumping, and looking around to doing 150 damage at any range in less than a second. Most skilled Sniper players don't bother scoping in until they see their target, making the whole "tunnel vision" downside obsolete. Most skilled Sniper would rather go for two consecutive quickscopes than to give up their awareness to fully charge a shot on a full-health Heavy. It's not uncommon to walk around a corner, see an unscoped Sniper, and then instantly die. I personally don't think that's fair or fun to fight against.
I also think it's interesting how this subject is suddenly becoming a hot topic after so long. Likely because the cheater infestation has made more people hyper aware of Sniper's power.
Thanks you Ankle dan!
thats a lot of text uncle dan. imma read it tomorow (:
good night uncle sam.
engineer gaming hello
They actually have a system in-game to prevent full damage quickscopes, but Valve made the timer wayyy too low (0.20 seconds).
For context, 0.20 seconds is less time than it takes to blink.
I generally agree which is why I'm fine with having quickscope speed reduced to an extent, and why I think there should be more of a punishment for Snipers missing their shots. Throwing a few shots a Sniper's way with hitscan is a good way to throw off his aim, but this is usually only useful for crossing a sightline, or sometimes forcing a retreat because what are you going to do, run him out of all of his bullets? He's going to hit you eventually, especially since you have to reload and he doesn't. That's why I think my clip idea really helps out interactions like these by giving you more options, now if you manage to throw off all four of his shots, you can actually safely close the distance on him to just kill him instead of crossing the sightline, going about your business and pretending the Sniper doesn't exist. And a slightly slower quickscope would actually make this process a lot easier since you can time your shots perfectly to throw off his aim at the right time without needing godlike timing.
Also, I'm not even sure if the bot crisis is the entire reason behind the Sniper debate because we've had Sniper cheaters getting gud and getting Lmaobox since forever. I think most people are aware enough to know that bots, as stupid as they are, surpass the skill limits of any human and aren't meant to be considered valid in terms of game balance. Honestly, I think it's because SoundSmith mentioned how strong Sniper is a couple of times because I hear the "hitscan instakill from across the map" line that he mentioned repeated verbatim several times in my comments.
I remember reading somewhere that "Sniper wasn't designed with >1000 hours of practice in mind" and I think that sums up a lot of the problems people have. Well, that and cheats.
Honestly, I don't know if any class was. For example, I think the reason why Spy is often considered the weakest class is because Spy's strengths rely on his enemy not being aware of him. That was fine over a decade ago, when people still had trouble hearing cloaks and seeing through disguises but today? Most players know his tricks, and the ones who don't learn very quickly. He wasn't designed with the game having veteran syndrome in mind and that's what makes him so weak.
@@orange0666 The point is that it's irrelevant how good you get at all the other classes, there is always a hard cap on how effective you can be, and there is always something that can shut you down. It doesn't matter how good you get at scout, you can't contest a sentry gun. It doesn't matter how good you get at demo, your weapons are all projectiles and can be dodged. It doesn't matter how good you are at rocket jumping, a heavy can always just shut you down. As sniper, there is nothing like that for you aside from an uber charge. You eventually get so good at sniper that you negate your counterplay because you can just kill it in one shot every time. It shouldn't be possible for a class to overcome any of its core weaknesses through any amount of skill, no matter how difficult it is.
@@carbon8ed Scouts can actually circle strafe to take out sentries since they take time to rotate. Damn hard to pull off though.
@@beautifulnova6088 That's a fringe case. Exceptions to rules always exist.
@@carbon8ed i just want the pre-nerf ambassador to fuck with snipers.
I like the idea of giving him a longer reload, but maybe instead for his default he could actually be animated doing the full reload we see in Meet the Sniper, where he ejects the spent shell and manually puts the next one in.
the classic one shot breech loading aussie rifle
I agree
What if?
We divide the sniper rifles in two classes: the ones That can headshot and the ones that can charge shots.
The ones that can headshot would no longer be able to charge their shots but can still headshot.
The ones that can charge shots cannot headshot people but can charge their shots.
@@miguelcandidodemoura9334 they did that with the Sydney sleeper. Nobody uses the Sydney sleeper
@@Cheeseisboss oh
I like the idea of a hard reload. I feel that the biggest weakspot for other classes like Soldier and Demo are their massive reload times. In the time a Soldier gets to reload a rocket and fire it for 80 damage, a sniper has already shot someone for 150.
Assuming they get a headshot
Soldier can only do that 80 damage at close range, it’s more like 40 or less since it gets pretty easy dodge at long range. Even with body shots Sniper can do consistent 50 damage at any range.
I'm reposting a comment that goes like this :
Sniper is the only class with enough times put into it that can completely nullify its weaknesses and counterplay.
Scout, no matter how good you are, a Sentry will ALWAYS crush you. Soldier will ALWAYS have a slow reload speed and massive self-damage risk when shooting someone at close-range, Pyro will ALWAYS have a shorter combat range than any other combat classes in the game, Demo's pills can ALWAYS be dodged and will never reload rapidly, Heavy will ALWAYS be the slowest class in the game, Engineer will ALWAYS needs time and effort spent not fighting in order to create his buildings, Medic will ALWAYS be the weakest at self-defense, Spy will ALWAYS be countered by awareness. Sniper ? It has low mobility, but doesn't matter when you can't even approach him without eating a fat 150. But what about Spy ? Awareness isn't class-limited. Shooting him from far away ? Oh wow, let me deals 3 damage with my shotgun while I eat 150 damage.
All other classes counterplay are hard-coded into the game, Scout can't brute force a Sentry unless the Sentry receives fat nerfs or Scout gets access to an item that fully counter buildings. Sniper's main weaknesses can be nullified with enough times put into it, which should NEVER be the case in any games ever.
@@vivelespatat2670 Exactly. God-level spy or demoman can be countered with enough effort. God-level sniper spreads death to you at any range and always checks flanks so you can't defeat him, unless you're a better sniper.
@@Appletank8 Soldier does 112 damage at point blank range, base damage is 90. 40 is long range directs, 32 is long range splash.
Fun fact about the sniper, he actually the second youngest of the mercs, being in mid late 20s to early 30s.
And he died first (in the comics) and was revived
+Star maker 75 Source ?
@@elfascisto6549 tf2 website
Sniper looks and his voice is like he was 45
The Australian outback does terrible things to your skin lol.
Before watching the video, I would say that the thing about sniper is that once someone gets good enough at the class, the interactions between them and their enemy becomes more linear. They see you and you die, or you just stay out of their sight.
Yeah, sniper pros are just...well boring xd a soldier pro will garden you from across the map, a demo will put every nade up your ass, pyro will be a goddamn mirror for projectiles every other class has some sort of flashy way of telling you they are good and you can really tell when they are, sniper is just legit aimbot...thats it, long range huntsman at least requires prediction, here its just an osu player, you just die, you dont even get a cool visual of them kicking you in the ass with stuff you cant complain about, sniper just shoots you from the other side of the map, thats it, there is not even a second shot they need most of the times...
@@eeeguba432 and another thing, I think that to get to that point as a human sniper still requires a lot of practice. It’s just boring and there is no counterplay at long ranges.
@@rbarua3368 Well there is a reason why in highlander the only sniper counter is spy or... sniper. Others have to wait for uber or for the enemy sniper to die. He is boring do play against.
@@Profioffilm in 6v6, someone like a soldier or scout could dive him when he’s out of position
that just cannot happen when there is a pocket pyro/engi guarding the sniper, as is often the case in highlander
Snipers only fun to play against when hes using the huntsman, then you can actually dodge instead of hoping hes not good enough
The problem with Sniper is that he's completely independent. All the other classes interact with each other to varying degrees, but the Sniper is an island unto himself.
Eh, not really. Teamwork is more or less superficial, unless you play comp or sth. So except for on medic, you dont really see the kind of teamwork you see in say csgo. Also sniper needs space. If your team is shit, all of those high value kills dont mean anything in 12v12. You still die to spam and getting run over all the same.
Necro, but the strongest Snipers either play on the backline or play with their team depending on how many people are trying to dive/flank them. They rely on their team to relieve pressure for them much in the same way a Demoman or Medic relies on the team for the same thing. That said Sniper is an extremely selfish class, you're not really meant to play on the objective and have no presence on the frontline, all the utility you bring is being able to kill people from across the map.
@@sgsgsgbogasa6421 Exactly. At best, a good Sniper might pick off a high priority target before his teammates can, but that's about it.
don't forget about the engies, it's literally sniper's bbf
Spies don't interact with anyone
I actually like the idea of Sniper having a Garand style reload. Especially once ya realize that his character model actually has Garand Thumb on his right thumb.
I have no idea how I've never noticed that
@plbster maybe it's cause you don't really see it in his viewmodel
I do think a simple reload Animation that adds extra time between firing would Balance sniper a lot, but a lot of people are just really biased and only promote deleting the class
i blame the bot crisis for that outlook@@redfox8496
"Sniper has a very similar role and function to a sentry gun"
He aimbots
lmao
And spins
The funny thing is, a good sniper, can be basically classified as cheating. You can get as good as a bot with 100% aim.
@@bill-zc1wi true. especially considering how freaking stupid some bots are
Removes human error
"It rare for a sniper to go through all of his ammo"
You have not seen my aim
For real he severely under-estimates how bad some of us are out there lol, and I started playing in 2011 xD
@@eldritchtoilets210 I don't think so, since he did mention that a lot of these snipers are equivalent to a completely absent player. This is mostly centered around the few good snipers that are the reason so many people are frustrated.
Lmao honestly yeah that’s me I always end up going through too many bullets
bruh that's an achievement using the whole ammo reserve
Same :realitymelt:
Like, I'm decent, but not as good as I am at other classes.
I like how Zesty Jesus put it: "Just because something has a high skill ceiling, doesn't mean it's not broken", to which he referred to the old combo pyros where they were a menace to play against but took skill to pull off.
A big problem with sniper is he's fundamentally imbalanced. In a game of close-mid range fights, you have this one high damage oddball class who can sit far as fuck away and kill you a fraction of a second while you're unable to counter. Not only that, but he's meant to be "weak" in close range, but then Valve gave him Jarate and Bushwacka, and his old reliable SMG that you can go on killstreaks with.
Not to mention how stupid high his initial damage is, where his crit starts at 150 damage, which one shots most of the classes.
As someone with motor difficulties, I basically can't play the game when there's a good sniper owning me. Sniper and spy are never fun to play as, or against.
@@caramelldansen2204 Spy is fine if you're in a pub of people around your skill level, but most of the player base knows what spy checking is so unless you're Speedy.Gonzales2007 who's a trickstab god on pubs, it's very hard to play spy the way Valve intended.
Definitely agree with Sniper, he's very hard to counter without another sniper if the sniper is good, and even if you try to engage him he can just run away or hit you with Jarate Bushwacka for massive damage with no downside.
@@Thefrostedslime I've always found instant-kill mechanics un-fun, anyway. I'd rather at least have a chance at fighting back, even _if_ the class attacking me is my class' counter and I'm basically doomed. "Someone chose sniper/spy so now I have to watch the respawn timer tick down and then reposition" with no feasible counter or reactive action is a great incentive to want to go play MvM or some shit.
imho headshots should only do 125+ on full charge; if it's bullshit when Amby spies could do it, why is it not bullshit when sniper can? At least him waiting for charge would both allow for counter while he's scoped, _and_ prevent bullshit quickscopes.
@@caramelldansen2204 the spy is the weakest class in the game killing is very easy if you know what you're doing, the same can't be applied to sniper, and I would argue spy is very fun to play as he's completely unique to anything in an fps, disguising as the enemy team and going invisible are awesome and getting backstabs is exhilarating and takes skill
I think the big problem in the TF2 balance rn is the always-rising skill floor. Because new players have become sparser and sparser (gee, wonder why), certain classes with a high skill ceiling become more and more powerful. As a Spy main, it's becoming near-impossible to play because playing Spy relies on the people you're playing against not understanding basic cues that a spy is around, or that a player is a spy.
Hell I'm a new player and spies are still easy to deal with. If you are playing sniper and see a teammate approaching you, whack them with the kukri a couple times. 50/50 chance you get a free kill
It's pretty clear that the Devs just never realised that skill levels would get to this point. Spy is designed to take advantage of awareness, sniper was designed with the expectation that he would miss most of his shots
Spy has been a bad class since forever. Everyone spy checks, everyone pays attention to sound cues. It's almost impossible to be a spy and help your team more than if you were playing any other class. Outside of specific situations of course.
0:43 CMON LET HIM GET THE TAUNT KILL
yeah, how dare you not let someone finish a taunt kill. I would let that sniper kill the heavy even if the heavy was on my team and the sniper an enemy
But muh TEAM WORK!
FSoaS CANCELLED
@@bigbear1045 damn right
@@bigbear1045 If that were the case I'd wait for the kill, and then kill the sniper in the lag frames
3:23 sentries have a limited range, an alert noise before they start firing, idle noise to alert attentive players to their existence ahead of time, and a fixed turn speed.
While sniper none you see him without any warning except for the dot and your dead and a god sniper doesn’t even scope just quickscopes so 0 alert :)
And Sentries have 100% accuracy. They'll never miss a single shot.
Plus they can’t move and take a lot of time an effort to set up.
@@TheCowai
Ya but they're immobile, have a half a second arming time, and can't fight indirect fire from explosives or flamethrowers.
@@TheCowai It doesn't matter that they won't miss a shot when they can't shoot at all. You can easily get on top of a sentry, spin and it can't shoot you, keep peeking a corner and shoot once each time and it can't shoot you, or take it down from a range and it can't shoot you, or destroy it while it's being built and it can't shoot you.
Just because it has a high skill floor doesn't exempt it from being overpowered. For example. in fighting games, if there's an infinite that requires practice and training to get good at the timing. but once you land it you just kill them, a lot of people would call that overpowered.
It's about how good it is compared to other options of similar difficulty.
@@dustrockblues7567 Difficulty should never be considered when balancing a game. Ever.
The problem with using difficulty as a balancing factor is that it's a variable that changes based on the player. It's a 'downside' that can essentially be removed with practice, leaving only the upsides that were given in exchange for that 'downside'.
Think of it this way. The Heavy's main weakness that he is almost entirely balanced around is his low speed and lack of mobility. In return for this low speed and mobility, he is given ridiculously high DPS and the highest health pool in the game.
It doesn't matter how much you practice as Heavy, it doesn't matter how high your skill is, you _cannot_ remove that weakness. He will _always_ be slow and immobile.
To many game devs fall into the trap of thinking "it's difficult to play" is a valid downside and end up 'compensating' for that difficulty when balancing, and every time it leads to a character/class that becomes straight up overpowered once people have mastered it and effectively nullified the difficulty as a downside. Lee Sin from League of Legends is an example of this happening.
@@arstulex Except that it's literally a valid factor if you want to make a character that's precisely hard to play as but rewarding, it should be stronger than everything else but not to the point of not having any counter play
Something like Geese's howard raging storm for example, has the waffle input and costs 1 bar of power to use because it's an all around broken move and it's absolutely necessary for a geese player to master it if they want to get good at him
@@arstulex imagine if heavy got an infinitely stackable, temporary speedboost by spamming the W key lmao
@@offandsphere6788 Is this actually a thing?
I haven't played the game in quite a while now so I wouldn't know,
If that is a thing then it's fucking stupid.
The "don't play these maps" or "sniper being powerful depends on the skill of the player and there aren't many skilled snipers" points are moot for a lot of players who play on serious community servers (such as uncletopia) to avoid casual bots, because most everyone on those servers that go sniper easily have 5k+ hours on sniper alone.
I've been goofing on uncle topia and I did not know it was comp
@@SharkOSix It turns off random crits and bullet spread of course it's comp lol
@@SharkOSix it’s comp config but it’s meant to be casual in feel and play
@@user-lh7mt7zo7l bullet spread is op
@@SharkOSix lol
There should also be a "sniper ahead" voice command so your team knows that if they peek a sightline they will be prepared
so basically what is already present in MvM
Damn, I remember playing on server, where dude on our team was using SoundPad with CS:GO voicelines. And CS:GO there is a voice lines for spotting sniper (only for bots, tho)
They could do it overwatch style where if you’re in a sniper’s line of sight your character will automatically say a voice line to the effect of “enemy sniper ahead”
@@ryguy4465 Old Call of Duty games had automatic call outs, not sure about new ones. However they were a little too realistic, the factions used their native languages and well if you don't know the language, good luck figuring out what they're saying.
@@PURENT Well, one of the “longer lasting” cod games has it, and it’s relatively modern.
Dying _instantly_ to a threat you aren't even aware of is always going to be incredibly frustrating.
At least spy has to get close to you. Sniper can do that from across the map.
with spies atleast it feels justified that the spy had to put more effort, either pulling off a trickstab or getting you at the right time, when you were too busy shooting at one side.
I feel like an instant quick scoop should get real close to killing light classes but not instantly. So a sniper might need to charge a bit more to secure a kill. It also prevents you from instantly dying to a sniper in close range even if you had them cornered. This way the sniper’s shots don’t seem as cheap because he had to commit to it.
As a medic main a facestab feels just as maybe even more infuriating than getting headshot
@@jakman8515 facestabs shouldnt even be possible, but are due to server stuff, so that is why
Well you build that awereness throught the games, but i get the frustration when the only optimal counter is the weakest class in the game
The problem with sniper is not knowing he's there. With all classes there are ques to listen out for, like spy's cloak or the screams from back stab, the beep of the turret, but with sniper there's just the little laser sight which most hide. I'm really into the idea of making snipers laser more visible like the wrangler laser.
Tbis comes down to map knowledge. Snipers typically only get 2-3 viable sightlines per map, so just know the map and assume there's a sniper there already. Tips from a spy main.
@@notgray88
the issue is that for any class who isn’t specialised in flanking or otherwise non-main objective things, that isn’t an option. any soldier or heavy or pyro or whatever who’s trying to show up to the point is pretty much dead by default.
13:00 as for making snipers easier to see, something Battlefield did was Scope Glint, so you can see from afar when a sniper is aiming at you. Granted, in battlefield you can be shot from far enough away you effectively cant see the sniper period, but it's still an idea.
I think that being able to see the laser would be good.
@@henodude7804 ...but you can already see the red dot
@@Mate_Antal_Zoltan But not when its pointed right at you, which is the problem.
It’s not like seeing the gleam of light from the scope is going to matter because you will already be dead from the snipers fucking cracked reaction speed
That's good, but quickscoping would still destroy you
That Garand ping idea is actually really good. I like the idea of having an audio cue for sniper, because he's pretty much the only high-damage class that doesn't. Spy has his decloak and heavy his rev. Both let you know when you're in danger, but sniper doesn't really have anything other than, "oh, a gunshot."
Also the Garand ping just sounds good.
Theres a small dot but snipers can easily hide it
W E T P I N G
Yes, the Garand ping is nice.
While you are at it put a cow bell on the scout so you hear when he is coming
@@seppo3139 Lmao. Good one. Scout is loud enough as is for those that have ears.
I feel like the main cause of frustration is that when you fight a sniper you don't have much control over the outcome. When you fight other classes the fights are longer and it's your skill against theirs, but with sniper it feels like it's only down to how good the sniper is. How well you play doesn't matter when you get instantly killed from across the map. All you can do against some snipers is avoid them. There's a reason hackers and bots favor the sniper.
Most people don't realize this, and it makes sniper a lot easier then you think. When the enemy's skill doesn't matter you can focus more on your own. Your loses as a Sniper are your own fault, not your enemy's fault. The enemy didn't win, you messed up.
As a sniper in many different games... this is a very nice thing to use for some wins.
when you play every other class, you mess up and die, but with sniper there is no risk (other than developing poor self image and dying of boredom)
Balance isn't about how frustrating it is necessarily, it's more about how much control something has over the game. In the case of the sniper, a sniper plus a coordinated team is nearly unstoppable unless the enemy sniper is just better. In competitive highlander whole games are decided by the sniper vs. sniper matchup, and that shouldn't be the case
The fact that a good sniper behind a coordinated or even halfway decent team can only be stopped by an equally good or better sniper behind their team just results in this situation where the two snipers are just playing their own 1v1 showdown of who can click the other's head first, essentially unimpeded, and the reward for the winner is having free time to delete the literal cannon fodder that is the rest of the enemy team from existence because they have no way of staying in the fight while you're not distracted except by uber.
And that is just fundamentally toxic.
@@natchu96 im starting to realize why i just never picked up sniper
"Geeting rolled by a good Sniper feels just as bad as getting rolled by a good demo"
As an Engineer main I can confirm: getting rolled by a demo _fucking sucks_
just dont ploay engineer lol easy fix
@@ayyimyou546 but I like engineer :(
Difference is that some people could go spy , or pyro to backstab or kill the demo , for a sniper the flank route requires you to actually flank instead of being able to face them head on
the difference is, getting rolled by a sniper just feels incredibly defeating, you don’t even get to run around the map trying to fight anyone, whereas with a good soldier or demo you actually have a chance at killing them if you catch them by surprise. Sniper doesn’t have this issue because he can literally just turn around and one shot a scout, an engineer, a peeking sniper, a discovered spy, etc. Even with most other things, if he hits you with a quick headshot and then a body shot, a soldier, pyro, and demo instantly die. Meanwhile, a demo trap can be baited by simply having one guy walk out and the next one walk out after. Very different situations for a spawn camp, and it’s kinda dumb to compare them
@Romanian RoN doesn't make it any less painful
The biggest problem to my eyes is just that Sniper has a design that conflicts with pretty much every other class in the game - he can one-shot enemies and can do that from nearly any range on the map, not to mention his weapon is based on locational damage on a player, one solution I thought of was making the sniper rifle have the damage charge build while aiming at an enemy, maybe having aiming for the head increase the charge rate, but when I made a server plugin to do this I realised it probably wouldn't work as well as it sounds in theory.
Every other class puts much more emphasis on movement and positioning when in combat, it takes thought to fight, in contrast to sniper who is much more about natural instincts or things that can effectively be worked down to muscle memory.
That is actually a really good idea!
I think things like this would make Sniper a better experience for both players. Aside from the damage output, Sniper also really needs to be more visible. Shounic's video about a visible laser seems very interesting to me, and having the beam start off fairly transparent but growing more opaque as charge increases would work wonderfully with your idea!
Being stomped by a good sniper do NOT feel like being stomped by a good soldier, lets say. Being stomped by a good sniper feels like you cant do nothing, like you re at the mercy of the sniper, not of your own skills
Sniper - op instakill across the map that can't be prevented
Soldier - balanced shooting rockets at the ground 2 meters from the enemy and killing him because splashes and massive damage
Bad comparison, these 2 classes are the same ruiners of the game with uninspired abuse of overpowered mechanics
@@Gayophile thats not the point: against soldier you can do something, against a good sniper you cant, more often than not
It's seriously disrespectful and completely dismissive that he said that. Believing that instantly killing someone from the maximum map range behind all of the other enemies, from peaking a few pixels is some how comparable to a solider that can juggle you is laughably naïve.
If i'm being stomped by any another other class i know that i can think of ways to trip them up by either changing loadout or class, in a game like tf2 there's always a solution to a problem but in the case of sniper, the solutions are very limited and if they're good enough with a pocketed medic and a sentry near by, he's essentially an unkillable machine where you're lucky to kill him suiciding as spy.
Hello soldier mains.
How many times you've seen a player on a godlike killstreak that was not a sniper/soldier/demoknight (killer + medic not included because godlike such as this can be achieved with any class)?
That's right, maybe in your opinion sniper can be cheap unlike soldier, but when a person who sees these 2 classes as a crutch, reads these kinds of comments as if soldier was a proper way to play the game, just can't get over how deluded one can be.
What counters does soldier have? Airblast? Escape with a rocket jump or shoot pyro with a shotgun, easy since he has an airblaster mindset when facing soldiers. Short circuit? Same thing. When you play as a soldier, you can pick up fights or deny them since you are one of the most mobile classes. Combine it with high hp, high damage output and you get similar "unkillable machine", just like sniper. When every other class faces counter, it's a hard fight usually resulting in a death of a countered class. When a soldier faces counter: rocket in feet, keep distance, don't get involved in a fight with a counter.
So referring to "being stomped by a good sniper do NOT feel like being stomped by a good soldier", it FEELS like, in both cases I roll my eyes when that happens. Maybe you don't see how cheap soldier is because you preffer similarily cheap tactics. If you think more about it, soldier comes as demoman for noobs, comparing how pipes and rockets work, pipes going on arch and giving enemy time to react and move from a missed grenade, hell, even stickies require 2 buttons to cause damage, take time to arm and have limited range.
"Soldier high skill ceiling" compared to what? Demoman? Spy? Tell me more how you are learning and utilizing that high skill ceiling with your basic soldier gameplay that let's you topscore, and even dominate players that are better than you.
I am not getting deeper into this, from my experience I know internet discussions are a waste of time, especially when I am talking to people defending soldier. This is my last reply, I am not going to grow any respect for soldier mains in this life or another. Bye.
@@Gayophile A solider can't kill you from across the map in one shot where he's completely unseen. A solider can't fight you behind his whole team. He needs to put himself remotely close to you in order to be efficient, Just like basically every other class in the game. Solider mains are annoying, but it never feels like i'm being robbed of fun and want to turn off the game if i get killed by one.
The problem with sniper is he is off playing his own game in the corner. There is no counter-play you can do other than basic random movement and pray to not get headshot. The entire balancing of sniper relies on the player making mistakes and missing shots.
you cant put sniper in a close quarters, fast paced game like tf2. it would be nice if he had damage falloff at long range so that he cant stand 5 miles away and go on a killstreak with no risk, plus the fact that he stands far away encourages selfish use of jarate.
Yet there are counter-plays. Spies are the essence of sniper counter-play, sniper is a sniper counter-play and scouts are quite hard to hit if they have proper movement. So Yeah, sniper is a class that has an advantage at long range against 6 of the 9 classes of the game, and yet, I don't feel like he's playing in his corner. Just as spies or engies aren't playing the game in their corner. Throughout the years, I have mained sniper for a long time before switching to spy and then medic, and it just feels to me like a sniper in the game is another parameter you have to take into account when moving arround the map instead of getting tunnel vision on the main fight. It's not like he instantly kills people with a bodyshot like the AWP does in counter strike, you still have to hit small heads in a fast paced shooting game. Of course a skilled sniper is powerful, but so are a skilled scout, a skilled soldier or a skilled spy. And most snipers are not really skilled. So yeah, I agree that some things need to be changed, especially regarding charged bodyshots, but as the video says, sniper is not OP, it's a high skill cap class with high rewards for moderate risks if you're smart enought to have good positionning and can aim decently. Most of what makes it feel OP comes from poor map desing rather than poor class balancing.
And to be a little cheeky, I'd tell you that the entire balancing of every class relies on the player making mistakes and missing shots, since you always die due to being caught off guard and not being able to react well enough to survive ;)
@@Aenorial except sniper is the only class who doesn't get punished for missing in most situations.
spy is not a real counterplay. If spies can be countered with awareness, and scouts have to go out of their way to over-extend just to deal with one class that is managing to control the entire map, then sniper's only real counter is himself.
a lot of "poorly designed maps" wouldn't look so poorly designed if sniper wasn't in the game to begin with. he doesn't fit in. he is what turns certain fun maps into bad ones. if you have to avoid certain maps just so you don't get nullified by one sniper main, i think it's more of a sniper issue.
@@TrickyRover I'm still waiting for a tf2 map that has no walls whatsoever and that is entirely controlled by a sniper. And despite what you seem to be saying, awareness isn't enough to counter spies when you are a sniper. Spies give you a choice : you either focus on picking ennemies off, or focus on not being killed, which limits the numbers of long range picks you can get. And for scouts, it's the same as soldiers, they have the option of extending out to the enemy sniper and beating the shit out of him.
Just because most of the action in tf2 is a close range fight doesn't mean any class not jumping in the action and getting up close and personal doesn't fit in. I don't see people complaining about the engineer not playing the game with everyone else despite its ability to lock down an area unless the enemy team goes for a coordinated push.
Sniper mains can't "nullify" people on every map, but soldier mains do. A team with a medic will most often than not stomp on a team without a medic. Lots of classes have a huge impact on the game, and sure, being killed from long range may be frustrating, but if you're going to complain that somebody investing time and effort into mastering a class that requires skill to be intimidating can own you, you're just fighting against the nature of video games.
And if maps are open to being dominated by a class, that's most definitely a map design issue, because you don't go and create maps for your game before having layed out the different classes. Just as 2fort (one of tf2's most beloved maps) is completely open to being dominated by an engineer without it being an engineer issue.
@@Aenorial Maps with large, long sightlines that contain the objective are dominated by snipers, and there are more of them than I think you'd want to admit.
Awareness *is* enough to counter spies, as any class. You can pick enemies off and still check your back.
Over-extending is way more risky and doesn't guarantee success. Sniper can stay at long range and instakill enemies at infinite range with no risk while others have to get behind the meat shield before being able to deal with him. Sniper is able to do way more for way less.
Engineer actually has class counters and fills his spot as a support role having to juggle all of his buildings and watch over them and risk his life being vulnerable when he's managing his buildings. The only time he's overpowered is when he's using the wrangler or spamming the cart and spawn room with the short circuit. Engineer 'plays the game' and is way more involved than Sniper is.
Sniper mains can nullify people on *most* maps. Soldiers can't, unless if you're talking about pubs, then any class can. Soldier, once again, has class counters and is high-risk due to having to trade health and ammo for mobility while jumping straight into enemies to bomb them trying their best to negate fall-off damage. Sniper? He's the one who picks the Medic which you said a team needs in order to stomp the other.
I'm not complaining that people are putting time and effort into mastering a class. I'm complaining that such a class even exists in the first place. Sniper isn't even complicated or the hardest to master compared to other classes. In order to be a good sniper, you need good aim and positioning. That's it. Again, Sniper gets way more for way less.
Yes. Bad maps exist. Good observation. Too bad a lot of them are bad mostly due to the existence of a class that does not fit into the game. If all the other classes fit in the game and the maps while Sniper doesn't fit in the maps, has no real interaction with any other class and if the only class that can counter him is himself... Sniper is an issue.
Sniper is broken for 2 pretty obvious reasons:
1. There is no actual counterplay to a sniper, only certain things you can do to make them more likely to miss. The outcome of every interaction depends only on the sniper's skill at the end of the day.
2. Large and open maps will always be unbalanced because sniper just exists
The counterplay to a sniper is another sniper, lol
@@dagrox2562 and that's about it, though spy can soft counter Sniper but... Razorback (it just makes it inconvenient to kill him though, not completely counter him) and Jarate+Bushwacka
@@RandomFurry07 razorback and bushwacka should honestly be removed outright in my opinion lol
If we didn't go with the Garand-style reload, I could see a missed shot being punished by Sniper taking his left hand off his rifle in a sort of "What? How did I miss that?" action for about a second before loading another bullet like normal; landing a shot would yield the same animation as we have now.
I would honestly just opt for a universal reload time increase on scoped shots, whether they hit or miss.
Not only this is impractical but it also disrespects to Sniper's character
a pro sniper is just substantially more powerful than any other pro class and it hurts
6v6
@@crack4184 You know what this team could use? Five more Snipers!
@@laynalazarsnumber1fan What could possibly go wrong? 5 more snipers for Gryffindor
@@crack4184 Even at 6v6, he's still far better that the rest of the off-meta classes.
Yea, when the skill ceiling is literally insta kill any range it's super unbalanced even if it takes lots of skill.
Insta kill, check, infinite range,check, hit scan, check, can see and thus react faster, check. CAN USE THE PAN, HELLA CHECK.
Rando krits op
Rambo krits :)))
Has counters for two of his counters, check. There is no good fucking reason for the Razorback and Danger Shield to exist.
Fist beats pan
@@AndreIguodalaFan55 fist=op
My problem with sniper is that for a handful of classes, the only counter to him is to not be seen by him. If you are far away from him as scout, pyro, heavy, engineer, medic, and sometimes spy, you are dead, just because xX_camping_gamer_Xx clicked on your head from the other side of the map. Its not fun to play against, even though it takes skill.
One of my biggest problems with sniper is that an unscoped shot just kills ur momentum, and they are pretty easy to hit
"If you dont enjoy playing against sniper, dont play these maps"
Thats worse, you do understand thats worse?
It may be worse, but at least its better than being locked down and being unable to play a game. Also the comment seemed more geared to the people who have a rage attack all because of a headshot. Its like how people avoid valve servers for the bots and just play community maps.
Based Scatter
And the video uploader's favorite map to play on is turbine for exactly the reasons he described
Tbf the maps where sniper is overpowered on are usually bad maps (except badwater, that hiding spot on the rocks is bs)
I'd say that this means "if you don't like sniper, go fix the maps, not the class" or something similar.
as a salty demo main, i respect scouts because well, they actually put themselves at risk by flanking me, and (this whole comment is based on close range quickscopes and bad maps) seeing a single sniper on turbine means i literally cant play the game. mostly agreed on your points here, finally a not so biased sniper main
As a scunt main I'm agree.
He is still very biased: he said that snipers have tunnel vision which is not true (at least for the kind of snipers we are talking about) and he downplayed effectiveness of quickscope at close range. Also he said that snipers can be flanked on good maps... Well on 90% of maps no you can't flank competent sniper especially when their team is not completely retarded. He said that sniper is high risk glass cannon while in fact he is neither.
@@skipperg4436 as a tf2 player I'm 100% agree.
@@skipperg4436 as an engi main I agree 101%
I get sniper gamed daily as a heavy main. See atleast with spy you eventually learn to deal with them and you can get very good at it with practice. But sniper... well apart from crouch jumping there's nothing you can do. You can't pick him off if you see him because heavy isn't supposed to be a long ranged character. You're not mobile enough when you're spun up to move around to dodge the shots and if his team is any good well good luck flanking him with the slowest class in the game. If combat happens within a sniper's sightline and you're playing a good sniper the class is neutered and I usually switch classes at that point.
A big part of the problem is that sniper isn't actually vulnerable at short range. His melee options are good, he has jarate and two shields specifically designed to deal with flankers, and he can always just snipe at close range too. Even unscoped, you can just click on any enemy at close range for 50 instant damage and then finish with melee. I rarely actually feel like flanking on a sniper is an easy pick.
a no scope and melee is 115...
@@NotStave Well your opponent is often not at full health.
“The only change I don’t agree with is the quick scope damage.” The problem with quick scopes are that they happen too fast. Within the span of .2 seconds, 12 frames, or 200 ms, the sniper can murder a majority the classes instantly and take a majority of the health off of the other 4. That’s faster than the average humans blink. (333ms) Or, faster than an average humans reaction time. (150 ms to 300ms) If there’s a man waiting to do 150, at least give me some time to react.
id Reduce Quickscope dmg to 100 So it has to Ramp up and then you can react
I really hate the ".2 seconds" argument, you can make an argument about sniper needing a nerf but if you have to disregard the limits of human capability you just form a bad argument.
Why do *you* think having to react to an enemy in 0.2 seconds is unreasonable? Because it's not feasible for a human to react in .2 seconds, for the sniper or the other player. That's why it's only seen being done by bots.
humans dont have such a fast reaction time, its irrelevant. also in servers where they tried to slow down quickscopes they found out that it just ruined countersniping and made camping snipers far too powerful
If humans can’t react fast enough then there’s no way to execute the move, the sniper has to 1) find you 2) recognized your head 3) click to ads 4) click again to fire. There’s no way a human can reliably do that in 200ms
Doesnt the sniper need to react too
Coming from Destiny, the snipers have visible glint as a way of knowing 'I'm in danger.'
No point knowing you are in danger if you are dead 0.02 seconds after you find out. Just enough time to realize what's coming and not enough to do anything about it
@@TheMikman97 no but something bright might be enough to spot him earlier than you would otherwise
@@leonardo9259
Exactly Zesty
The "I don't main anyone or have a bias buuuut" (proceeds to rant about how the short circuit and sniper demolish projectile guys) guy
THAT guy
Zesty
Coming from Splatoon the snipers have a extremly clear GLOWING LINE coming from their position and the snipers have a range limiitation.
The snipers in Far Cry New Dawn had pretty much faction (team) colored flashlights shining in the direction of their aim and it balanced how op they were at range since you could spot and focus on them
Another big point of Sniper's power comes down to who he is standing with. If he is besides a Pyro or Engineer, his counters really can't do much and the Sniper can afford to be tunnel visioned.
I mean.. if he's doing anything either than being hard scoped in all of the time, his counters can't do an incredible amount either :/
That, ontop of the fact that he has a "fuck you" secondary for all of his counters isn't good either. (Danger shield for dealing with scorch shot throwing off his aim, cozy camper for rockets/chip damage, razorback for spy, jarate for two of these PLUS everything else.. it isn't great. And the downsides they give are next to nothing. When is a sniper getting overhealed, razorback?!)
@@biglad6265 I think all the TF2 devs main sniper, lol
Uber charge: am I a joke to you?
@@ninja6245-real if your team has to pop Uber just to counter a sniper, then your team is never going to win.
So, in a team based class shooter, you get rewarded for working as a team and covering the weaknesses of your classes. Wow.
I think it would be good to give the sniper an actual laser sight, similar to the machina tracer, so you don’t just see the ‘dot’, but also the angle the sniper is currently. This way you don’t have to wait to die to figure out the snipers hiding spot
Most good snipers don’t tend to stand still with their eyes glued to the scope, practically you’d see a red line appearing for a half second before the sniper takes their shot.
The issue with that is visual clutter. It looks awful in gameplay.
Idk visually it might be confused for the wrangler’s laser a lot
Sniper has an "actual laster sight." Ever used a laser? The line is invisible, only the dot is visible.
@@Appletank8 and thats why sniper is poorly designed :) made by devs and playtesters who learned nothing in the time they were playing, and now we have virgins who think head clicking like a robot is fun, with 3000 hours in sniper alone.
Sniper seems to have the age old competitive videogame issue of being a characther with an insanely high skill ceiling making him incredibly hard to master, so naturally, to compensate for such a hard to learn skill, the reward is so insanely high that it breaks the game for every other characther once the player actually gets to the point of being THAT good.
(E.g: a lot of moba characthers, nurse in dbd, spacies in melle (mostly), etc...)
Oh please, landing shots consistently isn't THAT hard to master.
agree, but melee spacies aren't obscenely broken compared to the rest of the cast. both of them have losing matchups (debatably, i think fox/marth is even but its up to interpretation) and definitely have counterplay (unlike sniper lol)
@@ashtongiertz8728 im not even good and it feels really unfair when i hit any amount of headshots
Infinite range hitscan instakill class in a game where installing aimbot is like a hop skip and a jump
all they have to do is make all sniper rifles projectile and it would be epic!!!11
The problem isn’t with sniper it’s with valve.
Braaaap heavy bots were a thing for a hot minute there
@@liquidcheezc9074 yeah and it would make fighting aimbot sniper bots easier but could risk some sniper mains rage quitting
@@poopyjoe7435 huntsman but better? btw projectile headshots in a movement shooter are almost impossible aside from extremely close range (which is why huntsman has massive body shot damage) I am not sure if making it a projectile is the way to go
@@liquidcheezc9074 depending on how much time they make the bullet travel i think they could keep sniper mains happy
2:55 R.I.P Spy from Team Fortress 2
If your really quiet you can stil hear him storting.
you can actually see him ascend to heaven
The spy had deadringer
I am the spy
_Flies_
"I am the Die."
- Spy
sniper at really long range is basically a point and click leapfrog game until the enemy team finds you
I used to defend sniper even though I wasn't a sniper main at the time, but now after careful reconsideration and playing sniper again I realized something. This class is very much busted. I thought it was fair because of how hard it is to land headshots, but then I realized that every other class has to put in effort to aim which is comparable to snipers while getting a smaller damage output. Also bodyshots completely negate the whole "But sniper has to hit a tiny head argument" since 3.3 seconds at long range is nothing and you generally have a team to protect you. Sniper can quite literally drop a medic by hitting them in the body while a medic who has the crossbow using a projectile that takes time to hit cannot do the same amount of damage as sniper can. Also the weapons sniper has access to make him an actually decent class at close range. Jarate and bushwacka are a prime example of this. Not only that, but unlike demoman who has to take time to set up a sticky trap and reload and is generally weak at close range even with melee, sniper just has to go into scope and wait for someone to kill. While I do think spy is a good threat to sniper, the weapons that sniper has against spy can completely negate all the effort of hiding, sneaking, and finding the right opportunity. I really think sniper needs a nerf and here are some suggestions. 1) Make bodyshots weaker, reducing it down to 140 or even 130 would likely make snipers focusing more on hitting heads than on hitting the chest. 2) Nerf Jarate, self explanatory an idea would be to make the splash radius smaller. 3) The tracer round idea was mentioned in the video and I think it would work wonders.
TL:DR: Make bodyshots weaker, nerf jarate, and bushwacka.
I heard there was a balnce idea to nerf jarate at close range specifically. Basically if you throw jarate too close to yourself, you also get the jarate status effect, kinda like soldier and demo with their self-splash damage. Also it was labelled "Hit too close, piss yourself".
@@mariustan9275 I heard the same thing and I agree, but at the same time it would severly cripple Jarate that it would need something else going for it because otherwise it would be far more practical to use the smg. I'm not saying we should leave jarate as is, but I still want it to be a good sidegrade option. Maybe make it so the sniper when hit by his own jarate the effects wear off faster.
@@Powerlevelspy Yeah, like the crit a cola I guess.
Nerf Snipers base damage in general. Theoredivally one shoting most of the classes in the game with headshots is too much. It should take multiple shots to kill any class at least as a warning and chance to survive while charged headshots should be the only thing that has the potential to one shot.
Id say 25 damaged at base body shot damage minimum because not just quickscopes but charged shots and headshots are busted as well and give bots and cheaters an edge over every legit player.
10:15
One good thing about this is it doesn't invalidate the "Be Efficient" from Meet the Sniper. And that's good enough for me.
If anything, it encourages it.
The sniper player should have to be efficient.
Yeah, Idk about you, but where the hell would you carry 26 of those things?
tbh the 4 round clip just made me imagine the sniper rifle in halo
It makes me smile just to recall that line. Mastapiece
My main issue with the sniper really is that 90% of the time, you don't get to react. You just walk around a corner and instantly die to a sniper half a mile away that is peeking through a tiny gap in all the map obstacles. There is no playing around that, especially if your a class that can just be killed by a full charge body shot. Hell even a spy is gonna have trouble making it that kind of distance without being found out along the way.
The number of maps where a sniper has a sightline that long and no flanks is like maybe like 4.
@@notgray88the number should be a nice clean ZERO
@@notgray88Even if there are flanks, all sniper needs to do is jarate and melee whoever comes across him, and he’s right back to camping without a café in the world.
Believe me, I get picked all the time being a medic main. And my team NEVER is able to kill the camping sniper in any maps I play. If there’s a good sniper on the enemy team, you might as well re-que. Because the game is already over.
just started playing this game for the first time recently. i got a critical hit on this one guy about mid range. i then switched to my secondary to finish him due to the sniper reload time. anyway, he ended up killing me first. he wasn't playing a heavy class which has the most hp of any class if i'm not mistaken. sniper is a difficult class to play.
@@beerme27Being difficult is not the same as being balanced. Imagine there was a set of keys you could input frame perfectly that would instantly kill a random enemy from the spawn room. Only 1:1000 players can do it because it's so hard, and that's among the players who know of the mechanic in the first place and try to pull it off. We'll even say it takes a full five seconds to pull off.
Is that balanced? No, obviously not. Difficulty is not related to balance. It's related to skill. That's a different question. A tool can be broken because it's easy, but it can also be broken because it lacks a skill ceiling.
11:05
Holy shit you really showed your bias here. None of the things you listed come even close to the power of a quickscope. If you get close to a sniper they should be dead, no class should have a completely limitless effective range
Yeah thought it was kind of odd that he compared a projectile with an arc that does 50 damage+40DOT to an instant 150 from a hitscan weapon on top of a scope. The Guillotine also isn't actually long range. It does no damage after it travels a certain distance. There's not a single official map in the game where the Sniper Rifle can hit it's distance limit because it's hitscan.
Yeah I think that's why he left it for the last part. Frankly I think the last part should have been called personal frustrations rather than General
I don't mean to bring up an old comment but thank you for saying something. I totally agree, fish on a stick is one of the most opinionated and biased tf2 mainstream youtuber
11:38
The fact that he can kill any class with a single shot from any range is kinda broken honestly, this class was poorly designed regarding the skill level it require. If the ennemy team got an experienced sniper and you don't, all you can do is avoid his line of fire for the entire game which is kinda lame from a gameplay perspective.
I mean that's only if you get a headshot and if it's anything bigger than a Medic you need to wait for the charge.
@@Andrew-vq9or
You mean if you can click on the heads? And charging is merely a insignificant inconvenience when you are sniping a choke point from so far away that the only thing that could potentially threatened you is another sniper.
Even tf2 devs admitted that Sniper was poorly designed and fundamentally broken once you get enough hours under your belt with the class.
@@51dodoc just go behind cover. Map reworks can fix that. Also have good mobility, pushing pretty much denies sniping
@@flamingcat1101
You can't stay behind cover when you are on the attacking team otherwise you are losing the game. A push will get half of your team slaughtered by a good sniper. Mobility can help but again, a good sniper will headshot the most versatile scout, that's what you get when you give a hitscan weapon with an infinite range that just require to click on the head with no downside.
@@51dodoc you say it like every sniper has aimbot
8 kills
18 deaths
"this is actually the worst i've ever done and it caused me to have a minor breakdown"
me with my 3 kills and 40 deaths: *_panic_*
i can relate
I mostly just try to chill.
Welcome to TF2. The skill wall is kind Everst-y for the first thousand or so hours, and one day, things will just _click_ and you'll really get it
My advice, look up some Training maps, practice your accuracy
@@IlIBonesIlI I never got it after 1,500 hours. I just suck at videogames
@@ediodimacaroni I too suck at video games, friend. I sympathize, but I believe in you
Next TF2 update they're gonna remove Sniper class entirely and add 84 new cosmetics for Heavy
I don't see anything wrong with this
Ah yes, that's what people mean by the Heavy Update, don't they?
The greatest balance patch in tf2 history
@@darthplagueis13 yeh because the legendary Heavy Update is said to solve 50% of all problems facing TF2
good ending
My gripe with Snipers is that weapons for other classes which used to be OP just got nerfed to the point of being useless while his weapons basically never get nerfed and he gets to keep his OP crutch stuff
Yeah id rather have Valve nerf him to the ground than be in the state he is in now. Theres been experiments that the game is overall better when sniper is removed, but id rather have him have a lower skill ceiling and higher skill floor.
When a character's only counterplay is hoping for him to mess up he's not exactly balanced.
"Wow I'm so good at this game and now I'm dead"
I understood that refrence.
"but what about the times you aren't even good?"
"WOW I'M DEAD"
And what about the times you don't even seem to die?
"WOW I'M SO GOOD AT THIS GAME"
@@silver-ag4437 lol no sometimes u dont die but you are still trash
I read that in Scout's voice and it is rather fitting
The thing is, I think, that there’s no real counter play to a hyper-talented enemy sniper.
If you’ve got a cocky Scout who’s good at unpredictable movement and aim, a sentry can shut him down. If you’ve got a bombing tryhard soldier who keeps jumping into your entire team and getting out for free, using something like the Natasha can really help with the counterplay.
Against a really good enemy sniper, nothing can really be done. You play any class besides sniper and he’ll kill you before you’re in range. You play sniper and he kills you simply because he’s just better. Try something like the Vaccinator or even regular Über and he can simply retreat and let his team stall you.
When the all-encompassing balance ideology of “it doesn’t matter how good the enemy player is, there’s a counterplay somewhere you can employ with your team to defeat them” just doesn’t apply to a certain class, that class clearly has some issues that need resolving.
I completely agree.. Just today, I played against two really good spies (as demoman) and although it was painful at first, I got used to spychecking suspicious players and overall they became less of a threat to me. However, when I came up against this sniper on badwater (we were defending) he just kept getting into spots that were practically impossible to reach. Stickies couldn't reach it, pipes couldn't reach it, you couldn't sticky/rocket jump over there because he was so far behind his team that you would be killed immediately upon any attempt of assassination.
Yes.. You can counter snipers, but it takes a LOT of time and work. You either have to get a spy to make their way over to the sniper, kill him, somehow get out alive, or get your entire team to push that area just to kill the sniper. And every single method is a waste of time, because a sniper can just respawn and do it all over again. Snipers rarely have to reposition and can just click on heads at a far distance to their heart's content, given that they're good. There are so little counters to him, and even the counters that do exist, you have to go to great lengths to achieve. The reward of killing a sniper is just so little, because all they need to do is wait for their team to push up a bit, get in a good spot, and just.. stay there.
I just find that sniper is unnecessarily hard to counter. You either need to waste your time on a full frontal assault with your team, probably resulting in a graveyard in casualties, or having to switch class (or get someone else to switch class) just to deal with him. All of his counters are quirky and unreliable, and I think that he needs to at least be given more vulnerability or less firepower. I, in a sense, disagree with Fishtank on him being a "glass cannon". Yes, he's made of glass, but that glass isn't gonna break unless you get close to him, which is practically impossible unless you're on the proper map.
I think it mainly comes down to the map, but even on maps that do not favor him, he can still excel with quickscopes. Nerf quickscope time, make it more of an effort to get into good positions, and try and get him to actually move around more instead of staying in one spot for three minutes.
edit: i completely forgot you can counter sniper with.. another sniper. but, once again, that makes it so you have to have someone to switch class and stay live long enough to pose any sort of a threat
You can kinda counter with vaccinator
@@anthonyfarias5076 And what if you or the friendly medic with the vaccinator doesn't have any uber atm?
@@Krcun774 ambassador / enforcer spy, fists of steel, battalion's backup, etc.
@@anthonyfarias5076 What if you don't have the rage ready for the Battalion's Backup?
13:33 Honestly, I think sniper *should* be a slower paced class in combat, unless you’re using the huntsman. He’s too effective at all ranges and slowing him down a bit more would be an excellent way to nerf him in my opinion.
I really like your idea of giving the sniper a hard reload, so either that or a much slower passive reload, lowered body shot damage, and *maybe* a slower wait for quick scope. It would give players a chance to make a move at long range, which is where he should be, and it would make him less effective at medium and close range.
I generally don’t agree with the sniper style of gameplay in pvp first person shooters. It’s never fun to be on the receiving end and I’ve never played a game that didn’t make snipers feel like bullshit to play against.
I think maybe a semi-transparent laser instead of just a dot would be good at alerting your team that there's a sniper. Not as much as MvM lasers, but still.
If sniper gets that Garand ping, I would just shoot aimlessly just to hear that sweet sound.
mood
"Body shots need to be nerfed"
Sydney sleeper bros... we can't catch a break can we?
I still miss the piss explosion on headshot, that was a cool mechanic that felt rewarding and fitting.
Honestly, sydney sleeper could probably remain unaffected as compensation, giving it a slight buff in comparison.
@@beautifulnova6088 wait, they removed it?!
@@MattisticStatistic would make sense tbh
@@pacifistminigun3987 Yeah, replaced it with minicrits and -1 second cooldown for jarate on headshot.
Honestly I think the main problem is just how fast he can eliminate multiple enemies
I think if uncharged crits did like 100 damage and his reload was just a tad longer, he would be a lot easier to deal with.
Just forcing him to charge a little bit to actually 1 shot people would force him to consider which shots are worth taking, and means quickscoping is mostly reserved for weakened enemies or setting up your teammates for a kill.
As it is right now there is little penalty for missing since you can just take a new one instantly.
It could even be worth giving sniper a full reload for every like 5 shots
450 hit scan damage from the far side of the map: "This is fine."
270 damage on a slow moving brightly coloured projectile: "This isn't fair, please remove."
Yep, totally makes sense.
Both are bad lmao
But why crockets aren’t as dangerous:
dude
1: that crocket needs a random crit (bad mechanic) or a kritz charge (needs effort to do) instead of being built in
2: hitscan is instant, there is no rocket to dodge when it’s not right at your feet
3:you can kill the soldier who fired the crocket way easier lmao
@@kingkrispy5289 that's my point, I guess you don't get sarcasm.
@@chrisbingley you’re working that sarcasm backwards my boy lol
Well one takes timing and good aim, the other just takes spam and luck
I had just been talking with friends about how Sniper is one of only two classes that don't need to worry about resource management. Every other class has to make their shots count; Sniper and Medic are the only ones that don't need to care nearly as much
I'd even disagree that Medic doesn't require resource management. Building uber has one of the longest 'cool-downs' in the game and should always be at least the second thing on your mind, behind keeping your teammates alive. The more and more the meter rises, the more pressure there is to be aware of sightlines, spies, and the cover your teammates provide you. Once at 100% you have to play a game of chicken with yourself and decide when you'd get the most out of popping it. Too early and your team cant utilise it, too late and you run the risk of being targeted or wasting time that could be spent building your next uber.
In fact, your teammates themselves could be considered a resource you need to manage. If you're too deep in someones pocket to notice your comrades fall around you one by one, you're essentially helping the enemy remove fodder they need to get through to take you out. Overheal caps out and fades away over time so it makes the most sense to keep aware of how everyone around you is doing and do your best to get them to at least base health. He might not require much pure 'skill' in the same way a Soldier or Sniper does, but the moment-to-moment gameplay based on being aware of a large swathe of variables (players) and the uber management game have always - to me - seemed similar to the way an agressive Engie or a good Spy play the game.
@@PurplePhury3412 I meant moreso in terms of primary ammunition lol. A Medic's crossbow is never gonna reach the point where he's low on bolts because he uses the crossbow for a burst of healing and usually from mid-longrange, then returns to using his medigun.
@@ApexGale And also he like playing around his team. Where does the team usually conglomerate? The dispenser.
I mean, health is a resource, and Medic needs to manage that.
medic is the resource, the team has to maintain him
“And if they’re using the bushwacka they’re REALLY going to regret getting in close range”
Isn’t it’s sniper’s whole thing to be a long rage class that gets dumpstered in close range combat?
Bushwacka + Jarate: "um... No?"
lol no
Close range quick scopes random criteria and jirate would be inclined to disagree
If you die to jarate and bushwacka you are already being a fucking goober
@@fnutek3720 Sure, buddy
Sniper being unbalanced was shown by the bots. The overpowered nature of an extremely skilled sniper was shown by them. Bots of no other class are nearly as oppresive. And the bots aren't even perfect they still make mistakes and aren't better than some skilled quickscopers.
I'd argue bot heavies are as bad, those that make the minigun PERFECTLY accurate at any range.. but those are rare, and accomplish something a human beign couldn't ever reproduce (countering random spread). On the other hand, there is nothing stopping an extremely experienced sniper from reaching bot-like accuracy.
Heavy with aimbot and scripts is actually so oppressive you cant even leave dustbowl spawn if theres a single bot heavy
@@NeonBeeCat And Heavy can be oppresive too. He slows so much competitive when he can actually get to the objective quickly they ban all items related to speed with him. He also kinda stomps pubs when there's a few solid ones on a team.
I think overpowered doesn’t necessarily have to be easy to use, including any weaknesses induced by it. I think it’s more about a ratio of the power it gives, or how insurmountable it is, versus the ease of using it. The wrangler isn’t insurmountable, it can help save your sentry, but you’re still vulnerable while you use it because the sentry’s auto-target is pretty powerful, and because you can’t move out of the way or lose your sight line with the enemy, and putting it away makes your sentry not fire.
It’s easy to use, but not that insurmountable. You could, though, still argue that the gun is quite OP depending on how you view the weakness of having your gun not fire after, and being stuck controlling it until it’s safe, essentially.
The thing about the sniper, which I think makes him OP, is that it doesn’t take too much practice to actually become a consistent, and frustrating sniper. This is for the added benefit of quick scoping, which “has a cap” on how fast it works (if you count faster than a human can blink a cap), killing your enemies nearly instantly from anywhere, with very little risk to yourself if you quickscope. The most disgustingly frustrating snipers can take down heavies In just a few seconds because they hit their quickscopes so accurately, and because of TF2’s age, and because it’s really not that tough to get good at sniper if you practice and have a steady hand(I don’t, lol, it’s a miracle I can hit meatshots as scout), there’s a much higher amount of snipers that are less like those that’d actually scope in and have his downside apply, and more like infuriating and disheartening experiences to play against, because you can’t even look at them for a second because you’ll be dead before you can blink.
You dont balance a class around them missing, thats the problem with sniper.
Lmao, it’s the exact same problem with the ambi. The ambassador is absolutely BUSTED in the right hands. All be it, it was much MUCH worse before, but it’s still a MASSIVE amount of damage for the spy. A spy who has offensive power behind AND in front of you is just stupid.
revert ambi nerf, then we can all be snipers, except some of us have cloaks
actually, I kind of like the idea of a stealthy sniper unlock, like a cloak that makes you invisible from further than a certain distance after scoping for a second or two. after all, snipers irl are supposed to shoot when everyone else is unaware of their existence
it’s probably not very fun to play against, though
All the classes are balanced around them missing, lmao, that's the point of a shooter.
The sniper doesn't have a problem. Map design might, but that's not the sniper's fault. Dustbowl makes demoman INCREDIBLY powerful, especially when compared to how well the Scout performs on that map. Does that make Demo OP and Scout in need of some SERIOUS buffs? Hell no, it means Dustbowl is a trash map.
It's amazing that after over a decade, people suddenly have an issue with Sniper, despite the fact that his job has only gotten more and more difficult over time lmao.
@@spicytea735 if all the classes were designed around missing then you wouldn’t have to be so close to your enemy to be 100% affective as 8 out of 9 classes (maybe with the exception of engineer but he’s an entire desperate matter.) the scout can only do so much damage from medium to long range. As a scout you must get close to your enemy, same goes for your opponent lent no matter who your fighting against. Truth is, all classes prevail around close combat. TF2 is not like a traditional shooter where simply the better shot wins a fight. Counter play plays a huge roll. Knowing what your enemy has and using that knowledge to play around it. Just because a scout can aim slightly better than you does not determine the winner. However that is all thrown out the window with sniper, who is affected not only at close range because of his quick scopes, but at medium and long range as well. If every class is only affective at close range combat then the sniper effectively counters every class simply because they can aim well, no matter the range. You pretty much have 2 options at countering sniper at that point, either pray to god he doesn’t see you while flanking and quick scope you, or hope you can out snipe him. All in all, sniper is the only class in the game that is entirely designed around the player missing.
@@spicytea735 they arent though. you could have a competitive match where everyone is using an aimbot and it would be strategically engaging, as long as sniper is banned.
I think that increasing his base reload is a great idea, but I think that also opens up opportunities for dynamics in his kit. For the stock, you could just make the animation more realistic. Make it so that he actually has to pull out a bullet and load it into the chamber each time he shoots. Overall increase of a second maybe 1.5. For the hitman’s heat maker, you could give it an actual clip, therefor making it more practical for hitting multiple headshots in a row, but it comes with the drawback of a hard reload
Now we can finally have the revolver-rifle we all truely desire
Realistic ≠ Good
@@elfascisto6549 not always at least
i think it might need too much work tho, but i don't dislike the idea (also, i'd reduce the 1.5s delay to 1.2/1s)
That would make second scoping unbearable.
Here’s a wild concept I have no idea would be balanced in any way. Making snipers shots be affected by fall off. It would be longer that normal fall off, but there so you can’t get insta killed by a sniper from 10 miles away who happened to lay his crosshair on your knee.
Or remove the damage falloff from spys revolver like it used to be so he can actually counter snipers again.
@@notgray88 That would be super broken against everything else though. Imagine you fall to 60 health retreat from the fight and get 1 shot by a disguised Spy across the map.
@@disappointedoptimist255 Spy had no damage falloff on his ambassador for like 8 years bro... Yeah a few people complained about it then, but it was never game breaking.
@@notgray88 It required some amount of skill and for you to pick an otherwise weaker weapon. I think it was a problem to some degree, but the reason why it wasn't heavily complained about is you weren't getting constantly headshot by the Ambassador across the map, it was like once every few games at most. If you could do that with a bodyshot it WOULD be every game.
@@disappointedoptimist255 After they nerfed the range and accuracy of the ambassador I just switched my main to sniper and mostly use the Classic. I suspect Valve nerfing the Ambassador is a reason Sniper feels so OP now, since Spy can't counter him long range anymore.
When map design came up I was really hoping red’s first point on breadspace would come up. You can literally see into their spawn from like 1000m out.
Mad respect for showing yourself at the bottom of the scoreboard. That happens to everybody but you never see it in videos because watching a death compilation isn't exactly the entertainment most people are looking for.
Everybody gangsta till the sniper gets the ambassador treatment
Oh no
I loved the pre-nerf ambassador, I always used it to bully snipers.
Still takess 2 shots. Enough for sniper to turn around and kill you. That is even if he didn't hear decloak.
Actually good idea, encourages snipers to get closer, which enables other classes to kill him
revert amby, nerf sniper
Suggestion:
Turn the Sniper bullet into a really fast projectile with the slightest arc. It functions the same at ranges a sniper should be effective at, but if you want to go beyond your intended limit you're gonna have to show some prediction skills to hit that headshot.
Doesn't that also fall into the "skills don't equal balance" rule
@@lolforlife2487 yes you are right
Though my solution also gives the sniper a maximum range
If this was done then the translucent laser idea would be needed to go with it to warning players cause sniper still would have instead one shot one kill potential.
I think the close ranged headshot complaint is due to how important it is to kill the sniper so your team is able to exist in critical parts of the map, often the objective. As mentioned previously in the video, it takes effort to flank a sniper, but it also takes time: and time is a limited resource in tf2 games
Realizing there is a god sniper on the enemy team farming your medics already takes a bit of time. From there, taking the time to flank the enemy, especially when you consider you have to actually get through whatever defences the enemy has to guard their flank (If you even can get through), just so you can kill ONE player who is putting your team in a chokehold is already a significant investment of time and effort. So when you finally get to the guy who needs to die, to have him just snap and headshot you, causing you to have to do it again just to have another try to take out the guy that needs to die...
Yeah, I can see why people find that very frustrating, and I think a large part of that is due to how much sustained control a sniper has over the enemy team's ability to push, not the concept of close-ranged headshots. I imagine if the sniper was put in a position where he either didn't have as much control as he has now, or didn't have as much sustained control as he has now, complaints about close-ranged headshots would go down, because it wouldn't be as critical to kill him to let your team start playing the game.
I love the fact that this game has been around for so many years and that, to this day, still debating about the strengths and weaknesses of the mercenaries we all know and love. Awesome video!
Edit: Oh Wow! Didn't expect to get this many likes! ♥️
Dude I looked at the steam charts the other day and there were 100k active players on tf2. Made me smile
TF2 is a game that's stupidly well made and stupidly fun, even with Valve leaving it in the dust and the ongoing botpocalypse it'll likely stick around in some form or another for some time, just as it has for upwards of a decade already.
@@g--stef4756 and all this exist thanks to random people that decided to mod quake. imagine how they might feel right now, knowing how far the game went!
Although the debates aren’t centered around conjecture, i find it hard to recognize that these arguments have any meaning whatsoever when the tf2 dev balance team is non existent
My god, the 4 shot clip with a loud reload is the most genius suggestion I've seen for sniper, reducing the 150 base headshot always made me feel icky and it felt like a bandaid that wouldn't fix the issues he has, this just makes perfect sense, and not only that, it would fix a 13 year old issue with his reload animation making no sense! Brilliant stuff.
So literaly at TF1 Kräber? Minus 1 shot of course but still Titanfall did it why not team fortress
Most tf2 reloads dont make sense
@@cocorazor8837 none of them do
A 4 shot clip would kill sniper. His secondaries are all shit unless the enemy rushes him blindly, he needs some sort of power.
@@flamingkittyumad Jarate + Bushwhacka
They could also add a red line that goes from the sniper dot towards the sniper, but only like 30cm/1ft long, basically pointing in the sniper's direction. This would make sense since most maps are either dusty or wet/foggy. That way you see which direction the sniper is in but it's not obvious to everyone on the map, and it's not an obnoxious laser that's visible everywhere.
i like the idea of giving sniper an actual reload, and genuinely hope it gets added, but im just curious if that would conflict with the game's auto-reload setting or not
"One has eliminated human error and the other hasn't" LMAO
you'd think this video wasn't released today
In terms of balance discussion you can't factor in bots for the same reason you can't factor in random crits.
They both need to go for the game to be good, no matter how much you change about the game
@@voratheexplorer6442 except that one is just making your rocket shiny some times and another is a AI designed to have perfect aim
@@man-uk8cz and both need to go before we can really discuss balance. That's what I'm saying. Bots are by definition unbalanced because the person using them is investing no effort
@@man-uk8cz There are cheats to get shiny rockets too. It's possible to force the game to not give you a crit once you're up for one and then stop throttling it at will when you actually want to crit.
@@beautifulnova6088 didn’t you know? It’s already happened to me. Every time I want a crit. Doesn’t happen.
Thinking about a sniper with only 15 reserve ammo makes me smile
I'd say give him the reloading clip he talks about and give him 16 bullets in total. 4/16
My dream sniper nerf is:
15 ammo
Longer reload
Some kind of long ranged visual indication besides a tiny dot that a sniper is scoped in and ready to shoot you (someone suggested a scope glint)
A cap on the max mouse move speed.
@@Attaxalotl No, not longer reload; just give him a reload animation, period. Manually ejecting a spent round is not "reloading"
I never thought about until this video, but Sniper never has to reload, and has a rifle that holds 25 bullets. That is massively op to the point it makes me angry that this game has been out for nearly 14 years and that has NEVER been addressed
@@Attaxalotl Max mouse is just dumb. If a person is truly good at sniper, putting a cap won't hurt them in the long run.
@@dell988 But it *will* affect bots.
They should add scope glare so you would be able to tell that the sniper is aming at you I know about the red dot but that is hard to see if you are being aimed at derectly
as a sniper main, he absolutely needs to be rebalanced or nerfed. Personally, I like Soundsmith's idea of making quickcopes hit for 110, as an incentive for sniper to charge shots. Still doesn't solve the many other issues, like jarate -> bushwacka combo or getting killed the moment you enter a sniper's "sightline" (if he can see you, you're as good as dead)
2 notes:
These balances would make the Classic actually a bit more viable if that weapon was left as is, having no need to reload compared to the new changes to the other rifles. It'd still probably need adjustment but it may actually be something more than a joke now.
Also, another possible suggestion would be to make the rifle's sound bring a much more distinguishable report, as in make the sound reach much farther, or make a distinct crackle be heard by the opponent when a shot whizzes close by them. Not sure if it'd add much to warn the opponent but it'd add a cool intimidation factor, just to hear a unique crackle of a sniper's bullet whizzing by.
the classic would definitely be more viable and the reload mechanic would be plausible as it actually has a long mag. it needs the ability to fire when not on the ground though. i cannot tell you how pissed i get when i didn't get to shoot my attacker because i was knocked .2 centimeters off the ground before shooting or just happen to be in the water.
I actually think that the bullet wiz would be a great idea
The classic is honestly the most balanced rifle in the game right now. Every shot counts and you can't spam them, but you can still use it to effectively defend yourself at close range if you can aim. Even against an overhealed heavy. It even kind of has the bullet wiz effect in a visual sense.
Probably should have been the standard from the start. Guy Brody is right though, not being able to shoot while midair is infuriating.
When I die to pretty much every other class, I can immediately think of things that I could've done better.
I could've juked to the left. I could've predicted their movement better, I could've aimed better, that sort of thing.
My frustration with engineers went way down once I finally learned to listen ahead for the sound of sentries.
With sniper, this is literally nonexistent. Any decent sniper will hide their sniper dot, which is the only telegraph that you're about to get fucked by someone watching a sightline.
So I really like the idea of sniper having a loud reload, for starters. It would also be nice if you could see what you could've done better - maybe a replay from the sniper's perspective to see what your movement looked like when he shot you.
I think those two changes would deal with 90% of my frustration with sniper. The remaining 10% is that its power really should be capped better so that bots are killable.
How to counter sniper: Know the enemy team has a sniper. There ya go.
@@flamingkittyumad smort
Hitting the nal on the head. I suck at the game but when I get splattered by a sentry I always think "Well duh, I rushed ahead in that corridor without paying attention, that's on me".
When I get killed by a spy I think "Well, I should have checked better for hiding places" unless they do some bullshit magical facestab
When I get killed by a sniper, it's because I didn't spot a class that was peeking two inches out of cover at the other side of the map with an actual battle going on inbetween.
want bots dead? Vacc medic heavy gg
You should be able to hear the charging noise, and they should give Spy/Scout or Sniper some sort of item that lets them spot people
I love your suggestion of giving Sniper a Garand-style hard-reload, it would accomplish so much for such a simple change. It removes the Sniper from the sightline for a few seconds, forces him to consider when is the best time to reload, makes him more vulnerable in close-range encounters as he only has 4 shots to defend himself which also makes the SMGs better as a secondary, and even quickscope gods (and cheaters) can only shoot a limited number of time giving the other team a little window readjust and respond.
It also opens the door for other ways to differentiate and balance Sniper's weapons, one gun can have 4 shot clips while others could have more or less with other upsides or downsides.
You can go even further by having Sniper actually clip load instead of individual bullets, losing the leftover shots in the clip if he reloads early. That way you can keep his reserve ammo high (like 5 reserves of 4 shots) but if he reloads early he effectively has less forcing him to get new ammo earlier, adding a nice risk-reward to his reloads of choosing a full clip for a safe number of shots or risk only having one shot left in the clip and being mostly defenceless when that annoying scout/spy/pyro shows up
So basically make the sniper play like an actual sniper irl
I agree with most of these points, but I think that close-range quickscope especially need rebalancing more than long range quick-scopes. Sure headshotting at close range is hard but if the opponent can do it there isn't much you can do. They should add a reverse falloff until it charges to a certain point. This would also make sniper more dedicated as a long-range class and indirectly buff the huntsman, classic, and Sydney sleeper while both buffing and nerfing the bazaar bargain.
As someone who’s plays Sniper the most, I can definitely agree with this as an example, you being able to turn around when someone is shooting at you, usually at close range, and then instantly headshotting them is quite unfair since Sniper’s main weakness is his lack of defence when he’s at close range because well... he’s a Sniper.
However, some of the most skilled Snipers have basically managed to negate that downside almost completely making him one of the most deadliest classes in the game and can easily carry your team which is why is also think the Bazaar Bargain is the most OP Sniper Rifle in the game. Why do you think in Competitive 6v6 that when people change to another class that’s not in the meta is almost always the Sniper and why do you think it’s the most common class used by hackers?
I think an easy way to nerf the ability of quickscoping is to either reducing the amount of damage on a quickscope headshot or give it reverse damage falloff where the Sniper Rifle will deal it’s normal damage from long range but less damage from close range probably only dealing up to 100 damage making you unable to instantly kill the Scout racing around the corner or your examples for balance changes and have you prioritise in killing with your secondary or melee, giving them more overall use by at least buffing the damage of the SMG’s so it doesn’t keep people using weapons such as the Jarate or the Razorback all the time.
Another person who says to nerf a class based on skill. There's just a huge new boost of players who haven't been able to properly learn how to face a good sniper. Of course a 4k hour sniper will dominate a server but so would any player on any class with 4k hours. This is why no professional players complain about sniper.
@@obad7633 Yeah, nerfing based on skill is never a good option. I've fought really good Scouts and Soldiers who were able to delete me just as fast as a top tier Sniper could. I think one of the bigger issues of Sniper is his weapons. The Bazaar Bargain is no doubt too op, Jarate and it's Bushwacka combo nulify Sniper's close/melee range weakness (plus granting mini-crits to you and your team at the cost of the SMG is op.) As well as removing anti-class items like the Dangershield and Razorback, since their main purpose is just "fuck this class in particular", those kinds of weapons aren't balanced.
I agree that the best way to nerf quick-scoping is to just prevent snipers from doing it, period. 100 damage instantly upon scoping in, is already really REALLY good. Wanting to also be able to insta-kill a majority of the game's classes is just the prisoner asking for the keys to his cell at that point. And all these suggested nerfs that try to skirt around this issue.
Still trying to let quick-scoping be a thing is just being a bit too soft in my opinion.
However I'd also say that just nerfing quick-scoping and calling it a day, would just trade one issue for another. The sniper could still just blast out 2 100 damage quick-scopes to insta-kill everything but a heavy. And still with little risk to himself. So in addition to nerfing quick-scopes. I'd also slow down the sniper rifle's charge time considerably. I don't think that it's too much to ask for, considering that even with a 0 heads bazaar bargain, the charge time is so fast it might as well not exist. But with both of these nerfs stacked on top of eachother, what effectively happens is that now the sniper has to actually sit there and wait a few seconds if he wants to say pick a med, giving the med a bit of time to get out of there. as well as giving him harder tunnel vision, allowing him to be flanked and counter sniped easier. Sniper now punishes enemy players for being clueless with positioning or getting aggressive/cocky. Instead of punishing them for existing in the same server as him.
Our beloved stickmaster? A sniper main?
@@obad7633 yes but at high levels the skill to effect ratio for sniper is by far the highest by a crap ton
I've always thought it would be neat for snipers to have a glint that is visible from afar when they're scoped in, you know, like in MGS3 when you fight The End. Make it flash to like a quarter the size of the default crosshair when scoping in and then stay at a smaller size as long as the scope is up and it's looking in your general direction. It would be like machina tracers but you see them before you get bodyshot across the map instead of after.
Before I get too into the video, I feel like a problem that isn't talked about are the counters to sniper. They all require getting in close, but require an extreme amount of skill to be able to survive long enough to get sniper. Spy is notorious for being hard to play, and he is the only class that you could argue fully 'counters' sniper, being unseen unless he wants to be, and unless the sniper is being vigilant (or just equips the razorback meaning spy is forced to use a weapon that kills much slower than the high damage output of sniper's main weapon. or even just using jarate and getting crits) can instantly take them out of the fight until respawn and relocation to a safe point to continue sniping. Heck, in another of your video's you went into how Darwin's Danger Shield negates the pyro threat against sniper. I have literally died while comboing a sniper using the dragon's fury because he had that item, neutering my capability to do any damage to him outside of a shotgun (which granted would work, but like you said, putting on an item to negate an enemy's damage while they have to put in work just to GET TO YOU is unfair when they then have to also pick a whole new weapon just to keep up! it's almost like the old cozy camper issue that competitive had). Granted pyro is probably the opposite of a sniper counter, but being able to get close to a long range class and still lose because they are given tools to undo what feels like 90% of your damage is just awful. Seriously, it makes me consider the scorch shot if only to make a sniper as frustrated as I am. Simply put: The other classes have to put in far more effort to kill sniper, who impacts the game far more with less effort, while also having to deal with sniper being given items that make them have a harder time to counter him. (also as a counterpoint to demo being similar to sniper in killing potential, which you talked about in a recent fish bites, demo has to wait for his attacks to reach the enemy- needing multiple of them. Sniper just needs a clear line of sight. To counter a sniper a demo needs time, a wall to hide behind, and a good awareness for where the sniper is (and for the sniper not to move after the first sticky bomb lands) it's exactly in line with the whole effort vs reward thing that sniper has totally in his favor.
"Garand style ping so the enemies know it's a good time to make a move" I think not. If I've learned anything from the internet, everyone will basically be creaming themselves for those few crucial seconds.
EDIT: Oh he established that literally seconds after that section, premature comment D:
can you blame us? XD
"Anything Spy can do Sniper does better, Sniper does everything better than Spy."
2700dmg insta kill in 1 second sure ill would love to have it on a sniper rifle also please give us sniper mains a cloack ability so we can stand in a corner 24/7 also we need dead ringer so we can escape punishable scenarios thanks oh and also give us the revolver please so we can spamm when enemies get close
@@jenokrivanszki7762 ironic, the joke went by you like a cloaked spy
funny because i dont support the 24-7 cloacked spy in the corner sure lets have a time duration for the cloack but staying perma invis is just unfun to even play
@@jenokrivanszki7762 LOL you just sung the song.
"No he can't!
Yes he can!
No he can't!
Yes he can,
Yes he can,
Yes he can!"
That's the one song I dislike because THATS NOT A GOOD THING
While I think increasing reload time and decreasing ammo count are good ideas, I think they miss the biggest frustration people have with sniper.
He's not interactive. I can loose a fight with any other class and I'll feel like I got outplayed. Dying to a sniper I can't even see just feels cheap, dirty, and unavoidable. Here are two recommendations that would make sniper a more interactive class.
1. Make snipers projectile weapons. This would require predicting player movement, and make dodging much more doable and satisfying.
2. Make changes that increase awareness of sniper. Tracer rounds, scope glint, laser sight, something along these lines. Sentries beep, and if you're being aware, it is very easy to avoid walking into a sentry. Sniper sightlines, notsomuch.
Idea about concealment and positioning: maybe have a scope glint that gets brighter the more charged up the sniper is?
Sniper has been a bane on highlander since even before the bot crisis has gotten casuals to think about Sniper. The entire game would revolve around sniper, he's so fundamentally broken. There is no real fix for this either, he really doesn't fit in a game that's more fundamentally like Quake than it is like Call of Duty.
I agree, since I played in comp 5-6 years ago I noticed that over powered snipers supported by a mediocre combo would carry and only now people are talking about it cause of hackers or maybe cause pros are playing casual more often
Actually... A pyro could rush a sniper and even if the sniper has his ENTIRE TEAM with him. He still won’t make out of it alive!
@@ninja6245-real 150 DMG headshot when he turns the corner and bye bye
what the fuck do you mean?
a god sniper vs a god at any other class and the god sniper wins 5000/5000 times
@@troyherrmann235 pyro has 175 health.
@@ninja6245-real and sniper has a SMG,
and if your only play against sniper is just to kill yourself rushing him then that is just stupid, lastly he has a team, that he is most likely behind
That last line is so true for so many games
the "fuck you for trying to pull that shit on me" line?
@@maestrofeli4259 the "as long as there's two classes left in the game someone is gonna want someone nerfed". yours's also good tho
How to balance sniper
Remove bushwacka and make none of his melees crit so his one weakness is actually a weakness
Personally, I think the best way to make Snipers Reload lower is to actually have him USE the bolt of his BOLT ACTION RIFLE. Still lower the max ammo of the Sniper. Like, between each shot, have the Sniper ACTUALLY pull his bolt back, put the bullet in the chamber, and then push the bold forward. I feel that would be able to keep him with his Sniper, while also nerfing him