This is a MatPat level of dialogue misinterpretation. Edit: ok so this is ironic to the point of being brain cell-damaging, but yes I’m aware the video is a joke, that’s why I MYSELF made a joke making fun of MatPat a whole damn year ago. Piss off.
Most of it can be summed up by the lack of evidence. 1:22 "I just think it's interesting that most people would assume Hornet is made of void after playing Hollow Knight" No, in that poll people voted for Hornet being void because mossbag had said she was void in previous videos. 1:51 Black Limbs: Just because something is black, it doesn't mean is void. Hornet leaks white particles when at 1 HP which represents soul. The Knight, a void being, on the other hand leaks black void particles. Bipedal: Unless you expected Hornet to walk around like a dog I don't see how this is evidence for anything. Wears cloak: Exactly, if you wear a cloak, you are made of void. No. And Hornet's cloak resembles much more the Weavers' cloak than the Vessels', which is not a surprise since she was probably raised in Deepnest. 2:38 The White Lady says: "If its curiosity wills it, it should seek out that place. That place where it was BORN, where it DIED, where it began..." The void would obviously kill them. Now, if they were born before being killed, it means the Pale King and White Lady were able to reproduce without void. She says the Vessels were born in the Abyss and died there. The offspring in the Abyss were killed by the void, becoming Vessels. There's no evidence to support what you're saying whatsoever. There's no reason why Herrah would throw baby Hornet into the Abyss since void would only kill an offspring and is not necessary for it to be born. Hornet: "Ghost. I see you've faced the place of your birth, and now drape yourself in the substance of its shadow." (Your birth, not our birth). The fact the Midwife knows about the dalliance is more evidence she was born in Deepnest. 2:48 The White Lady literally says the two had a dalliance. The problem here is the same from previously, while there is evidence supporting Hornet was born from the dalliance, there's nothing supporting she didn't. As you said: "I think..." Your assumptions do not matter, the evidence does. And the evidence supports the two had sex and Hornet was born from it. 3:12 Except no, their head shapes are different. You're comparing a horse to a zebra. Hornet is the daughter of Herrah, which explains her head shape much more nicely than this theory. 4:10 "the pale king is a worm God and cannot have biological offspring with a beast" Based on what? "Dalliance" is not a figure of speech (I heard someone saying the simplest solution is usually the correct one). You're basically trying to make the evidence line up with your assumptions. Assuming she's just being figurative is not an argument. She's literally saying the PK and Herrah had a dalliance. This is evidence given to us, we're supposed to try to connect it with other dots, not completely dismiss it because it contradicts with our beliefs. 4:43 This isn't valid proof since it can be interpreted either way with no context. I already explained why she couldn't possibly be void. 5:13 The Collector is a whole different lore beast that has its own controversies. But it doesn't really make any difference here, as he's not a Vessel. The Kingsmoulds are printed with instructions in a mold like the one found in the workshop, completely different from how the Vessels came to exist. 5:50 "your likes" = Vessels. The Black Egg was made to sustain a Vessel. Hornet is not a Vessel. This interpretation is simpler, makes more sense, lines up with the evidence, and doesn't require speculation in order to make sense. 6:21 She's the Gendered Child because all her half-siblings have no gender. The Midwife is using the Pale King to associate them here, not the void. I already explained how Vessels are created, the burden of evidence is on you, you're the one who's been speculating since the beginning of the video. If you think Hornet's called the Gendered Child because she's a Vessel you have to dismiss all the evidence presented so far. 7:00 With a good reason. The White Lady literally says they die in the process. They're not void, therefore, the void kills them. 7:33 I'll pretend you didn't say this. 8:29 No, there isn't. You made up 90% of what you said in this video. Honorable Mentions: docs.google.com/document/d/1Ys0ucrtLPHxRDW_lB757Rmd6KxK9nUgeh_fzGZ5uHGA/edit docs.google.com/document/d/1_jCecboqNzmlSbyGnOYuvkDh-OJgLxK1npD-VGAbNr8/edit These two documents created by Mola and Sumwan (which were mentioned by mossbag himself in his video and were also in the description), which you obviously didn't read, go even deeper into this and present even more evidence as to why Hornet isn't void.
So why does she give off soul like other living beings, or Why do no other void creatures drop off soul, like the collector? So this debate is still up.
Arurra Moon Hornet has a shell which gives her soul, but Silksong has already pretty much disproved the theory. The Collector also doesn’t give off soul because he is made of void completely. Same with the siblings.
The Knight also has a Shell filled with Soul. As indicated in the upper left hand corner of the screen. But when you are hit. You give off Void. Hornet gives off Soul. The debate be open. (Not for me. Hornet is 100% not void for me) but for others.
The king/wingsmoulds also give off soul and have the same particle effects as hornet when you hit them, and they're confirmed to be made out of Void. I think Ghost is different because we see Hallownest from its point of view, and experience the damage done to it, so we can see the void particles, while other creatures might not.
Hey thanks man. I'm actually getting a real microphone for my next video so it'll be way more professional. All the audio for this was recorded on my phone.
How did BOTH of you ignore the fact that in Dream No More, Hornet is unaffected by the void disappearing? Even the siblings down in the abyss were put to rest and yet Hornet is fine.
Not necessarily put to rest. They ball up like that once you have voidheart, doesn't necessarily mean they're gone for good, just that they're going back to the pile.
@@cardboardhed1967 I think them looking up, and then ALL noping out is a pretty large indicator, certainly a shorter leap to take than most people tend to in HK lore.
@@jeremiahlynds3465 well they were looking up because they were called in to the radiance fight right? I think it's more of a "my work here is done" type thing.
@@cardboardhed1967 Even if that's true, it still doesn't explain why Hornet wasn't called up with the rest of the Siblings when they're unified by Voidheart. I can MAYBE see that she was called into the Black Egg chamber because of the Voidheart, but if we're making that leap, she'd most certainly nope out with the rest of the void. Fun video, discourse is great, but Dream No More should cinch this. Occum's Razor.
Nope out how? All the other vessels are hollow and have been rotting in the abyss for an age. They nope out because it's all they know. The knight and the hollow knight gave their all to defeat the radiance in the dream realm, and hornet is just left behind. I don't see any reason why she would melt or nope out of existence in any way.
one thing I haven't seen anyone say is that: you mention hornet and the hollow knight having the same head shape as an argument, but the other vessels in the abyss have different horns and head shapes, so obviously if they grew they wouldn't have that same format, the broken vessel and the one in greenpath are good examples personally I think the hollow knight just looks like that for aesthetic reasons, like you can't argue with the fact that he looks badass and without those big horns it wouldn't be possible but I admire you going against mossbag just for the fun of it, props for the great video
You dismissed a lot of evidence by saying that the pale king can not have a child with a tree but she says that the bindings on her are to keep her from breeding which implies she can move and MATE also the queens gardens are referred to as the queens resort of some kind therefore because she can move she can most likely BREED and for your point on how bugs can’t crossbreed well look at Brett’s and zote those two are not the same species but that doesn’t stop them from liking each other but if you couldn’t crossbreed that would maybe stop or at least make them hesitate before going into a relationship
@Uri arzuan if you get far enough in the game, you will eventually find zote falling for Bretta. If you beat grey prince seven times however, she loses interest
@@churchofeg They aren't talking about ships they are using the fact that bretta did like zote while they are from different species which means cross breeding is canon here
You say that the crucial emptiness they do not share is that the knight is literally hollow, and that it has no emotion. Guess how the vessels have no emotion or thought. None of the vessels you fight can be dream nailed, and it you try, it just flat out doesn't work. Not even a "...". You can dream nail hornet, like, all the time, and you're saying that you can't *mate* with a tree, but the white lady is also a bug, but you may think: oh, she doesn't look like a bug, so she's not. Does the pale king look like a bug? Do any of the vessels look like a bug? Do elderbug, zote, hornet, the radiance, or goams look like bugs? No. This is a really good video, but it's just wrong. Also, why would the pale king throw her into the abyss? He's gifting hornet to herrah so she will agree to be a dreamer, and herrah wants a child so someone can rule deepnest. Did the pale king just want to piss her off? There's no reason that he would want to have hornet hollowed out by void.
Ok, but now when silksong demo reavelad it is 100% Hornet isn't void (and really good video you made idk why So much dislake it, everyone can have their own opinion)
"the similar source is the void itself, and the crucial emptiness they do not share is the state of being hollow" the void makes them hollow tho. Also the queen wasn't always a tree, she locked herself away because she felt bad about what the king did to the vessels
Actually some convincing arguments, nice job man! I honestly think you got a point in some regard. It's honestly making think perhaps it's more of a mystery than simply calling her not void. Hopefully Team Cherry will throw us a bone later
Ok so I found a lot of evidence do debunk this, You can believe whatever the hell you want At 1:52, you made a list of all the reasons people might think she is void. Well... 1. That is a dress 2. She has no mouth because her father is the pale king 3.she is strong because of her time spent in Farloom (it’s a prequel try me) 4. Every creature in the game has black limbs 5. Both her mother and father had 2 legs and arms 6. Again, her mother and father did not have a unique body part resembling an outer shell Damn this is a lot
I feel like most of the points in this video are arguing ways the lore could still make sense if hornet was void rather than actually proving that she is. The only evidence given seems to be that they look similar (disregarding zote's similarity in the process which itself proves that other bugs can look like the vessels without being made of void) and the rest of the video seems built off of the assumption that void is required for the procreation of higher beings which there is even less evidence for than void being genderless which at least has the established precedent of every confirmed void creature not having a gender.
Though my opinion hasn't changed drastically, i really liked the video and a lot of passion can be seen in your work. Keep it up man, cuz im lovin this!
Hey dude thanks. Saw this comment and it reminded me to finish a video I've been working on. I really appreciate commenters like you being positive and shit. I'll try to make more good videos. Also just realised a couple days ago was the one year anniversary of this upload, how time flies huh.
Has.. Has everyone in the fandom forgotten that the player and the Knight are the same age or are they blinded by the fan art depicting them as a toddler?? The only reason why the Hollow Knight grew is because the Pale King trained them to be the perfect vessel. But again, I don't understand how bugs age in this game since its suggested that Elderbug is younger than most of the NPCs.
Hes not taking in the fact when hornet says, "its built to sustain you're kind", that there is air of corruption all around the temple, maybe thats ACTUALLY the reason why she can't go inside
Counterpoints: Generally: Everybody says this but, white soul cocoons in silksong. 1:22 - Coldwhite made this point in another comment, go read it first. 1:43 - She was trained by Queen Vespa in needle and thread combat for an extended period of time, making it very likely that she is better trained than most bugs. 1:44 - It's not a cloak, it's a silk dress. 1:47 - So Quirell, Elderbug, Vespa, Hera, Monomon, Cornifer, and many others are all vessels? I find myself unbelieving of this fact. You do bring it up later, but uh... not all of the points are true, like the dress not being a cloak? 1:48 - Refer to the point above. 1:57 - I said it. 2:20 - Well no shit. Hera is her mother. YOU EVEN SAY SO. 2:34 - Both of them are PALE BEINGS. They can probably mate with stone if it's living. 2:38 - I mean, yes. But that's to make it a void creature, birthing it in the first place is, as I said above, incredibly simple for creatures that are at worst, a near god. 2:43 - No, it's after the baby is made. They hollow (no pun intended) out the newborn bug and replace it's insides with void, before placing a cloak, shell, and nail upon it. 2:44 - Wow, you got it right! 2:50 - Why not? As I said, the Pale King is a god, and Hera is naturally powerful. I'd say birthing Hornet from the two would be entirely possible. 2:56 - Says who? You already stated that the Pale King mated with a living tree right? Why can't he mate with a spider? 2:59 - And she would have had to be hollowed out after the child was birthed, which would rightfully piss off Hera. 3:06 - Without the void part. 3:10 - No. All my counterpoints prove otherwise. 3:17 - Okay, fair point. But uh... it's a mature vessel, older than hornet. And in the birthplace cutscene, THK's head is that of a younger vessel, not even the semi-prime "vessel" (air quotes because it's not true.) that hornet is. 3:36 - You just killed your own point. 3:44 - I know this sounds crazy, but what if it's time, like any other creature? 3:47 - Well no shit Sherlock. 3:51 - In the background of the ending of P4, and when fighting either one of the radiance forms on the climb phases, you can see vessels with other shaped horns, so it isn't a stretch to suggest that she had different ones too, if she was a vessel. 4:06 - You forgot it's called a dreamer. The seal is linked to her, but she herself is the dreamer. 4:14 - I already SAID he could. He is a pale being, so why not? Pale beings are perfectly fine to do essentially whatever they want, as they are on equal scale to the power of a god. 4:22 - And you are correct here. 4:23 - And then you punch your good karma in the face. 4:25 - Again here. Let's see how fast you kill that karma, eh? 4:28 - She says she shares no crucial emptiness, and that is what void IS. 4:33 - Yes. 4:39 to 3:42 - And he is right. 4:46 - It took you 21 seconds. 4:51 - So tell me how she is void if she isn't hollow? As I said, vessels are created AFTER the birth of whatever was born from the Pale King and White Lady. 5:02 - They were, aside from the knight. 5:07 - Several hundred billion, possibly even trillions, so you know, i don't think you put enough emotion into saying a lot of failures. 5:08 - Everybody and their mother knows this. Only godhome managed to do it, and it was with presumably a lot of effort. 5:13 - The Collector protects grubs, encases infected creatures, other void creatures (evident by the player's shade.), and even feels connected to others around it. No shit it's not hollow. 5:21 - It's insane? I mean, yes, but it is also sane in it's own right. It protects grubs, and I can only imagine from the hunter. It theoretically had a lover, evident from the name of the love key, the location you find it in, and the dreamnail dialogue for it. Also the Collector's dreamnail dialogue reflects on it being a focused insane construct. 5:31 - Correct, but it proves no real point. 5:47 - No it can't. refer to my above points for WHY. 6:09 - If you take too long or hit THK enough, you get the Sealed Siblings ending, emphasis on the waiting too long. I'd say it doesn't drain mind, but it drains intruder's stamina, so non-void or pale beings could not enter. And, just to note, hornet at the very best is a higher being, not a pale being. For your logic to work out, the pale king could just throw any vessel in, wait for it to be empty and then seal the radiance. 6:12 - Not if The Knight doesn't have voidheart, it isn't. 6:39 - Everybody can agree with this, but I'd say that Hera and the Pale King Just looked at the base bug and gave it a gender from that. Like any normal parents. 6:44 - Karma will soon break, I can feel it. 6:50 - 6 seconds. No, here is still queen, as evidence by the stalking devouts that inhabit the area. Hornet only becomes queen AFTER Hera dies, in which at that point the Stalking devouts STILL refuse to believe that Hera is dead, as thoughts by dream nail dialouge do not change. 6:59 - I mean, she doesn't have a name, and the shades are essentially corporeal ghosts, right? They float, they have infinite soul capacity, and they break free of the mask when give the chance. So why not? 7:06 - I mean, you have to kill the bug to hollow out it's insides and flesh, so it kills it as part of the prep work. I somewhat agree with you then. 7:11 - Well no shit. Also hey look it's 7/11! 7:19 - No. I think otherwise. Refer to one of my previous points for as to why. 7:25 - Then please explain what the force is. 7:30 - Her battle arena has a vessel in the background, Broken Vessel, Nosk's victim collection, and the fact she knows where the abyss is states otherwise. 7:33 - She did, but Zote isn't void, I mean, I suppose you could prove it, but unlike vessels he has a mouth. If you want to, I might disprove as many points as I can in that video, too. TL;DR - Nearly every point made in this video is easily disproved.
By ur logic if the hollow knights head is the same shape as hornets then is the hollow knight also Hera’s child? Also maybe hornets head is like thank because the pale kings head is like that?
@@cardboardhed1967 any Tipps then?could you perhaps post something on Reddit regarding how to draw?(I normally tend to be overexact,since one millimeter off could ruin the whole picture,in my opinion(like,if you draw a 5 cm long line but your 2 points of reference are only 7 mm apart))
I have a question nobody seems to be able to tell me: With all that heartlessness going on with the King, he probably could have just taken in the Radiance on his own. This dude is so heartless, he let all his children die and suffer and justifying it.
But the king has motives and feelings, even if some would call them evil ones. He cares about at least one thing: his kingdom, and it's perpetuity. This makes him far from hollow.
Well in the Silk Song demo when Hornet dies u can see she leaves a cocoon made of silk, she doesn't have a shade like Little Ghost and the other vessels Edit: and when she gets hit she releases white particles (soul or silk) and Little Ghost releases black particles (void)
I feel that this question can be solved by simple maths that many have probably seen Pale king + White lady + void = The vessels Pale king + Herrah = Hornet Feels like sometimes we forget the simplest answers
1. There are characters with black body and they aren't Void ( Zote, Elderbug, Hunter... ) 2. There are also characters with no visible mouth ( Quirrel, Pale King, White Lady, Tiso... ) 3. She is strong, cause she is a daughter of a *GOD* 4. THERE ARE CHARACTERS THAT ARE WEARING CLOAKS 5. She was born in Deepnest. 6. Hornet is afraid of coming down in the Abyss.
Cool vídeo And drawings specially. Hornet is not void tho. As you said, "The best solution is the easiest one." She literally says that she's not hollow. The void hollows people out, removing their gender, mind and voice. This argument can be found within many of Hornet's own dialogue as well as in the White Palace. So stop being a stubborn flat-earther. Edit: also the lie that says that Hornet is void has been 100% debunked by Silksong.
He literally said he is on the fence about the debate... He's just talking about a debate which at the time was not answered... like imagine being a flat earther before people knew the earth was round... you would actually have a point lol 😅🤣
@@sgt_pasty2033 He made this video in response to Mossbag saying that Hornet was not void. He had more than enough evidence and counter-evidence to prove his theory correct.
@@sgt_pasty2033 ...If he really was on the fence, he wouldn't have made a video just to talk about it, specially with such inconclusive evidence. If anyone here is playing devil's advocate, it's this guy.
1-There is no evidence that the Pale king needs void to reproduce. 2-The king's molds are made of void, but have metal shells. Where did hornet's head come from? 3- the vessel's heads are random in the way that two brothers aren't exactly the same. The pale king's geans are likely the dominant once, so no tree headed vessels. Maybe Herras's geans are equally as dominant so hornet is a micks if them. 4- he mated with a f*** tree. Why not white something from the same (biological) kingdom? 5- baby hornet is absolutely adorable
I think the Pale king could breed with Herrah and the White Lady precisely because he's a Wyrm God. This video presents some good points, but as Mossbag said, there are a lot more hoops to jump through to say she is void than isn't.
some vessels look like other bugs like when you kill the broken vessels in the hunters journal it says that the broken vessel looks like other bugs in hollownest
The final nail in the coffin of Hornet being void for me is the fact that Hornet was a "gift" to Herrah from the pail king. Why infuse her with void if she only exists to be a half god heir to deepnest. There's just no reason to infuse her with void. Especially since the vessels are essentially corpses of the children of the Pale King and the White Lady, who have been killed and reanimated by the void. And I follow the theory that the Hollow Knight isn't anything special when it comes to the vessels. I believe that the vessels were just made in a V E R R Y large batch and the Hollow Knight just "ascended" the abyss the fastest so the Pale King just so happened to pick it. And all of the extra dead vessels (the ones with broken shells in the abyss) are broken beyond the point of reanimation due to falling all the way down the abyss. Also the part where you talked about the black egg draining emotions is absolute bullshit. If the black egg drained emotions, than H O W was the Hollow Knight corrupted by The Radiance if its thoughts were drained? Also with the sealed siblings ending we S E E Hornet falling unconscious inside the black egg. Why would that happen if all that was happening was her thoughts being drained? In the dream no more ending we also see that the black egg is made of void. Void is well known to be VERY lethal to any living thing that isn't void, INCLUDING G O D S as evidenced by The Radiance DEFINITELY being killed by it, and the Pale King probably being killed by it. Going back to the sealed siblings ending, the knight and the Hollow Knight are clearly unaffected by the black egg, but Hornet is dying due to over exposure to void (the black egg). Why would that be if Hornet is already made of void????🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
there is no proof or anything in the game's text that explicitly contradicts the other side and you are mostly just basing this on visual similarities, also both the White Lady and the Pale King are classified as "Pale Beings" so why couldn't they have kids, etc.
Although I disagree with this theory, I think your evidence is well thought out unlike other Hornet is void supporters, who think ScReEn TrAnSiTiOnS are why hornet is void
When void creature get hit we can see void particles When infected creature get hit we can see infection particles When normal creature get hit we can see soul particles. For example: black particles when hit collector, sibling, shade, the knight Orange particles when hit almost every regular energy Wight particles with hit mantises, sung defender, oro, mato, sheo, HORNET
![30 ชั่วโมงคนเดียว บนรถไฟชั้น 3 โซเวียต [Around The World Ep. 2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/MlE9boAVqDA/mqdefault.jpg)
Silksong confirms that hornet isn’t void
Yes
instead, she's made out of screen transitions
Simply Blank exactly
Also it’s cannon that herra fucked the pale king
Dat Song guy true
“Hornet is void”
Midwife: this is how my work paid?
Oof
This is a MatPat level of dialogue misinterpretation.
Edit: ok so this is ironic to the point of being brain cell-damaging, but yes I’m aware the video is a joke, that’s why I MYSELF made a joke making fun of MatPat a whole damn year ago. Piss off.
And you on a whole ' nother level of being a dick
@@circleyes8950 how is saying that they misinterpreted the dialogue considered being a dick though?
@@lackofmotivation9810 The person which made this film, that they made IT for fun/IT isn't true, so It's rude just to still go out and say It's wrong
eh, i mean whos to say how exactly the dialogue is supposed to be interpreted
@@circleyes8950 he never said it isn't true. He said he isn't sure if it's true
When he said that zote was a vessel i almost fucking destoryed my phone in anger
Even though it's basically confirmed now that Hornet isn't void, I like the effort put in this video
Good video
I personally disagree, but good video none the less
@@mrgizmo7190 proof?
Idk this is kinda sus
Most of it can be summed up by the lack of evidence.
1:22 "I just think it's interesting that most people would assume Hornet is made of void after playing Hollow Knight"
No, in that poll people voted for Hornet being void because mossbag had said she was void in previous videos.
1:51
Black Limbs: Just because something is black, it doesn't mean is void. Hornet leaks white particles when at 1 HP which represents soul. The Knight, a void being, on the other hand leaks black void particles.
Bipedal: Unless you expected Hornet to walk around like a dog I don't see how this is evidence for anything.
Wears cloak: Exactly, if you wear a cloak, you are made of void. No. And Hornet's cloak resembles much more the Weavers' cloak than the Vessels', which is not a surprise since she was probably raised in Deepnest.
2:38
The White Lady says: "If its curiosity wills it, it should seek out that place. That place where it was BORN, where it DIED, where it began..."
The void would obviously kill them. Now, if they were born before being killed, it means the Pale King and White Lady were able to reproduce without void. She says the Vessels were born in the Abyss and died there. The offspring in the Abyss were killed by the void, becoming Vessels. There's no evidence to support what you're saying whatsoever.
There's no reason why Herrah would throw baby Hornet into the Abyss since void would only kill an offspring and is not necessary for it to be born. Hornet: "Ghost. I see you've faced the place of your birth, and now drape yourself in the substance of its shadow." (Your birth, not our birth).
The fact the Midwife knows about the dalliance is more evidence she was born in Deepnest.
2:48
The White Lady literally says the two had a dalliance.
The problem here is the same from previously, while there is evidence supporting Hornet was born from the dalliance, there's nothing supporting she didn't.
As you said: "I think..."
Your assumptions do not matter, the evidence does. And the evidence supports the two had sex and Hornet was born from it.
3:12
Except no, their head shapes are different. You're comparing a horse to a zebra. Hornet is the daughter of Herrah, which explains her head shape much more nicely than this theory.
4:10 "the pale king is a worm God and cannot have biological offspring with a beast"
Based on what?
"Dalliance" is not a figure of speech (I heard someone saying the simplest solution is usually the correct one).
You're basically trying to make the evidence line up with your assumptions. Assuming she's just being figurative is not an argument. She's literally saying the PK and Herrah had a dalliance. This is evidence given to us, we're supposed to try to connect it with other dots, not completely dismiss it because it contradicts with our beliefs.
4:43
This isn't valid proof since it can be interpreted either way with no context. I already explained why she couldn't possibly be void.
5:13
The Collector is a whole different lore beast that has its own controversies. But it doesn't really make any difference here, as he's not a Vessel.
The Kingsmoulds are printed with instructions in a mold like the one found in the workshop, completely different from how the Vessels came to exist.
5:50
"your likes" = Vessels. The Black Egg was made to sustain a Vessel. Hornet is not a Vessel. This interpretation is simpler, makes more sense, lines up with the evidence, and doesn't require speculation in order to make sense.
6:21
She's the Gendered Child because all her half-siblings have no gender. The Midwife is using the Pale King to associate them here, not the void.
I already explained how Vessels are created, the burden of evidence is on you, you're the one who's been speculating since the beginning of the video. If you think Hornet's called the Gendered Child because she's a Vessel you have to dismiss all the evidence presented so far.
7:00
With a good reason. The White Lady literally says they die in the process. They're not void, therefore, the void kills them.
7:33
I'll pretend you didn't say this.
8:29
No, there isn't. You made up 90% of what you said in this video.
Honorable Mentions:
docs.google.com/document/d/1Ys0ucrtLPHxRDW_lB757Rmd6KxK9nUgeh_fzGZ5uHGA/edit
docs.google.com/document/d/1_jCecboqNzmlSbyGnOYuvkDh-OJgLxK1npD-VGAbNr8/edit
These two documents created by Mola and Sumwan (which were mentioned by mossbag himself in his video and were also in the description), which you obviously didn't read, go even deeper into this and present even more evidence as to why Hornet isn't void.
ColdWhie I love you for saying this. (Although the vessels are technically Hornet’s half-siblings, not step-siblings)
@@Ismael-kc3ry thx for pointing it out, small mistake
Np
0:18
The most and only damning fact he needs to be more right then anyone
Too long didn't read
hornet says herself "that crucial emptiness i do not share"
So not as much void, but still void.
>”gender was not included by the pale king”
>refers to the vessels as “he” throughout the whole video
A new foe has approached.
So why does she give off soul like other living beings, or Why do no other void creatures drop off soul, like the collector?
So this debate is still up.
Arurra Moon Hornet has a shell which gives her soul, but Silksong has already pretty much disproved the theory. The Collector also doesn’t give off soul because he is made of void completely. Same with the siblings.
The Knight also has a Shell filled with Soul. As indicated in the upper left hand corner of the screen. But when you are hit. You give off Void. Hornet gives off Soul. The debate be open. (Not for me. Hornet is 100% not void for me) but for others.
The king/wingsmoulds also give off soul and have the same particle effects as hornet when you hit them, and they're confirmed to be made out of Void. I think Ghost is different because we see Hallownest from its point of view, and experience the damage done to it, so we can see the void particles, while other creatures might not.
So I come back here and I am thinking What the heck was I thinking.
Yeah, arguments in the comments tend to get like that!
*Until silksongs comes out and reveals hornet is made of zote piss*
God this is well made for a first video. I disagree with your conclusion but I really like your style.
Please make more content.
Hey thanks man. I'm actually getting a real microphone for my next video so it'll be way more professional. All the audio for this was recorded on my phone.
@@cardboardhed1967 still good. When I talk I sounds like flukemon
You forgot one thing. The white lady ISN'T a three she tied herself to her chamber in shame
Hornet is made out of screen transitions
if I am not void why do I feel a crippling sense of emptiness inside me? Checkmate Bapandas.
WDYM?
I. AM. NOT. VOID!
I love how he is fighting by using the opposite information that mossbag gave
you just made a powerful enemy today.
How did BOTH of you ignore the fact that in Dream No More, Hornet is unaffected by the void disappearing? Even the siblings down in the abyss were put to rest and yet Hornet is fine.
Not necessarily put to rest. They ball up like that once you have voidheart, doesn't necessarily mean they're gone for good, just that they're going back to the pile.
@@cardboardhed1967 I think them looking up, and then ALL noping out is a pretty large indicator, certainly a shorter leap to take than most people tend to in HK lore.
@@jeremiahlynds3465 well they were looking up because they were called in to the radiance fight right? I think it's more of a "my work here is done" type thing.
@@cardboardhed1967 Even if that's true, it still doesn't explain why Hornet wasn't called up with the rest of the Siblings when they're unified by Voidheart. I can MAYBE see that she was called into the Black Egg chamber because of the Voidheart, but if we're making that leap, she'd most certainly nope out with the rest of the void. Fun video, discourse is great, but Dream No More should cinch this. Occum's Razor.
Nope out how? All the other vessels are hollow and have been rotting in the abyss for an age. They nope out because it's all they know. The knight and the hollow knight gave their all to defeat the radiance in the dream realm, and hornet is just left behind. I don't see any reason why she would melt or nope out of existence in any way.
Debunked from demo footage.
*Ladies and Gentlemen, we got em.*
What the demo footage says about this matter?
A lil weeb she gives off soul particles rather than void and in death she leaves a cocoon of silk instead of a shade.
I mean, no, this theory was debunked long before the demo. The demo just provided more evidence
Ismael San Antonio the demo just made it certain, I agree it was a V E R Y strong case before hand
2:32
"İ don't think bugs can make with trees"
And i don't think bugs can build entire kingdoms, wield nails and trees can talk
3:51 awwww!kawai baby hornet! Pledge to protecc
That alone made this video worthwhile
"So take everything I say with a grain of salt".
Don't worry, I'm naturally salty after months of not winning the fifth pantheon.
Bruh same
one thing I haven't seen anyone say is that: you mention hornet and the hollow knight having the same head shape as an argument, but the other vessels in the abyss have different horns and head shapes, so obviously if they grew they wouldn't have that same format, the broken vessel and the one in greenpath are good examples
personally I think the hollow knight just looks like that for aesthetic reasons, like you can't argue with the fact that he looks badass and without those big horns it wouldn't be possible
but I admire you going against mossbag just for the fun of it, props for the great video
I agree with Mossbag, but I still liked because this guy's content is pretty nice.
"mossbag would like to know your location"
mossbag: *triggered*
You dismissed a lot of evidence by saying that the pale king can not have a child with a tree but she says that the bindings on her are to keep her from breeding which implies she can move and MATE also the queens gardens are referred to as the queens resort of some kind therefore because she can move she can most likely BREED and for your point on how bugs can’t crossbreed well look at Brett’s and zote those two are not the same species but that doesn’t stop them from liking each other but if you couldn’t crossbreed that would maybe stop or at least make them hesitate before going into a relationship
zote and bretta ? i dont think its canon but... i ship it
@Uri arzuan if you get far enough in the game, you will eventually find zote falling for Bretta. If you beat grey prince seven times however, she loses interest
@@churchofeg They aren't talking about ships they are using the fact that bretta did like zote while they are from different species which means cross breeding is canon here
"I think the infusion of void is crucial to this process" this premise is never backed up
In the Silksong demo, Hornet doesn’t drop a Shade. Boom solved
You say that the crucial emptiness they do not share is that the knight is literally hollow, and that it has no emotion. Guess how the vessels have no emotion or thought. None of the vessels you fight can be dream nailed, and it you try, it just flat out doesn't work. Not even a "...". You can dream nail hornet, like, all the time, and you're saying that you can't *mate* with a tree, but the white lady is also a bug, but you may think: oh, she doesn't look like a bug, so she's not. Does the pale king look like a bug? Do any of the vessels look like a bug? Do elderbug, zote, hornet, the radiance, or goams look like bugs? No. This is a really good video, but it's just wrong. Also, why would the pale king throw her into the abyss? He's gifting hornet to herrah so she will agree to be a dreamer, and herrah wants a child so someone can rule deepnest. Did the pale king just want to piss her off? There's no reason that he would want to have hornet hollowed out by void.
Something that I think debunks your theory is that neither the pale king nor herra are made of any sort of void, so hornet wouldn't be void
Neither is the queen, so I guess the vessels are not void.
Ok, but now when silksong demo reavelad it is 100% Hornet isn't void (and really good video you made idk why So much dislake it, everyone can have their own opinion)
Tem right (^_^)hOI
@@shilohmoss7602 hoi Im always right
There is hard proof that Hornet is'nt void. Look at Mossbas videos about it.
@@commanderfox7384 what happens if you are not right?
She is at least a little bit void.
"the similar source is the void itself, and the crucial emptiness they do not share is the state of being hollow" the void makes them hollow tho.
Also the queen wasn't always a tree, she locked herself away because she felt bad about what the king did to the vessels
I lost it because you kept calling him Mr. Bag.
The similar source is the pale king, besides in this world, anyone could mate with anyone, also the white lady isn’t literally a tree
in my opinion
nah
nah AND
nah
Well Hornet is strong but i think its beacuse his dad is a god
*her
Actually some convincing arguments, nice job man! I honestly think you got a point in some regard. It's honestly making think perhaps it's more of a mystery than simply calling her not void. Hopefully Team Cherry will throw us a bone later
What are those arguments
The arguments fall appart easily.
I am hornet, and i do not approve of this message.
Hornet is song.
*silksong
Ok so I found a lot of evidence do debunk this,
You can believe whatever the hell you want
At 1:52, you made a list of all the reasons people might think she is void.
Well...
1. That is a dress
2. She has no mouth because her father is the pale king
3.she is strong because of her time spent in Farloom (it’s a prequel try me)
4. Every creature in the game has black limbs
5. Both her mother and father had 2 legs and arms
6. Again, her mother and father did not have a unique body part resembling an outer shell
Damn this is a lot
I feel like most of the points in this video are arguing ways the lore could still make sense if hornet was void rather than actually proving that she is. The only evidence given seems to be that they look similar (disregarding zote's similarity in the process which itself proves that other bugs can look like the vessels without being made of void) and the rest of the video seems built off of the assumption that void is required for the procreation of higher beings which there is even less evidence for than void being genderless which at least has the established precedent of every confirmed void creature not having a gender.
Broken Vessel has the word "bro" in it. Broken Vessel confirmed male? Nonvoiders BTFO
@@cardboardhed1967 I've been destroyed oh god Im gonna have to change my name and leave the country Im sorry mom.
5,000 years in the dungeon for this Misdeed.
Though my opinion hasn't changed drastically, i really liked the video and a lot of passion can be seen in your work. Keep it up man, cuz im lovin this!
Hey dude thanks. Saw this comment and it reminded me to finish a video I've been working on. I really appreciate commenters like you being positive and shit. I'll try to make more good videos. Also just realised a couple days ago was the one year anniversary of this upload, how time flies huh.
My mind was changed by the amount of annoying people who hate this theory and love "canon".
Has.. Has everyone in the fandom forgotten that the player and the Knight are the same age or are they blinded by the fan art depicting them as a toddler?? The only reason why the Hollow Knight grew is because the Pale King trained them to be the perfect vessel. But again, I don't understand how bugs age in this game since its suggested that Elderbug is younger than most of the NPCs.
Is no one gonna mention that epic fortnite dance at the end?
Wait,it's fortnite?
Hes not taking in the fact when hornet says, "its built to sustain you're kind", that there is air of corruption all around the temple, maybe thats ACTUALLY the reason why she can't go inside
And also, if the temple "drains" her personality......it would make much of a difference........because she doesn't have a mouth
*You're getting it all wrong waltuh.*
Tbh I wouldn’t be surprised if hornet was made of nothing at this point
"No voice to cry out suffering"
Hornet: Speaks
She has other arms, I know this wasn’t shown till Silksongs trailer but she’s literally a spider, proper PROVED lore that Hornet is a spider.
Counterpoints:
Generally: Everybody says this but, white soul cocoons in silksong.
1:22 - Coldwhite made this point in another comment, go read it first.
1:43 - She was trained by Queen Vespa in needle and thread combat for an extended period of time, making it very likely that she is better trained than most bugs.
1:44 - It's not a cloak, it's a silk dress.
1:47 - So Quirell, Elderbug, Vespa, Hera, Monomon, Cornifer, and many others are all vessels? I find myself unbelieving of this fact. You do bring it up later, but uh... not all of the points are true, like the dress not being a cloak?
1:48 - Refer to the point above.
1:57 - I said it.
2:20 - Well no shit. Hera is her mother. YOU EVEN SAY SO.
2:34 - Both of them are PALE BEINGS. They can probably mate with stone if it's living.
2:38 - I mean, yes. But that's to make it a void creature, birthing it in the first place is, as I said above, incredibly simple for creatures that are at worst, a near god.
2:43 - No, it's after the baby is made. They hollow (no pun intended) out the newborn bug and replace it's insides with void, before placing a cloak, shell, and nail upon it.
2:44 - Wow, you got it right!
2:50 - Why not? As I said, the Pale King is a god, and Hera is naturally powerful. I'd say birthing Hornet from the two would be entirely possible.
2:56 - Says who? You already stated that the Pale King mated with a living tree right? Why can't he mate with a spider?
2:59 - And she would have had to be hollowed out after the child was birthed, which would rightfully piss off Hera.
3:06 - Without the void part.
3:10 - No. All my counterpoints prove otherwise.
3:17 - Okay, fair point. But uh... it's a mature vessel, older than hornet. And in the birthplace cutscene, THK's head is that of a younger vessel, not even the semi-prime "vessel" (air quotes because it's not true.) that hornet is.
3:36 - You just killed your own point.
3:44 - I know this sounds crazy, but what if it's time, like any other creature?
3:47 - Well no shit Sherlock.
3:51 - In the background of the ending of P4, and when fighting either one of the radiance forms on the climb phases, you can see vessels with other shaped horns, so it isn't a stretch to suggest that she had different ones too, if she was a vessel.
4:06 - You forgot it's called a dreamer. The seal is linked to her, but she herself is the dreamer.
4:14 - I already SAID he could. He is a pale being, so why not? Pale beings are perfectly fine to do essentially whatever they want, as they are on equal scale to the power of a god.
4:22 - And you are correct here.
4:23 - And then you punch your good karma in the face.
4:25 - Again here. Let's see how fast you kill that karma, eh?
4:28 - She says she shares no crucial emptiness, and that is what void IS.
4:33 - Yes.
4:39 to 3:42 - And he is right.
4:46 - It took you 21 seconds.
4:51 - So tell me how she is void if she isn't hollow? As I said, vessels are created AFTER the birth of whatever was born from the Pale King and White Lady.
5:02 - They were, aside from the knight.
5:07 - Several hundred billion, possibly even trillions, so you know, i don't think you put enough emotion into saying a lot of failures.
5:08 - Everybody and their mother knows this. Only godhome managed to do it, and it was with presumably a lot of effort.
5:13 - The Collector protects grubs, encases infected creatures, other void creatures (evident by the player's shade.), and even feels connected to others around it. No shit it's not hollow.
5:21 - It's insane? I mean, yes, but it is also sane in it's own right. It protects grubs, and I can only imagine from the hunter. It theoretically had a lover, evident from the name of the love key, the location you find it in, and the dreamnail dialogue for it. Also the Collector's dreamnail dialogue reflects on it being a focused insane construct.
5:31 - Correct, but it proves no real point.
5:47 - No it can't. refer to my above points for WHY.
6:09 - If you take too long or hit THK enough, you get the Sealed Siblings ending, emphasis on the waiting too long. I'd say it doesn't drain mind, but it drains intruder's stamina, so non-void or pale beings could not enter. And, just to note, hornet at the very best is a higher being, not a pale being. For your logic to work out, the pale king could just throw any vessel in, wait for it to be empty and then seal the radiance.
6:12 - Not if The Knight doesn't have voidheart, it isn't.
6:39 - Everybody can agree with this, but I'd say that Hera and the Pale King Just looked at the base bug and gave it a gender from that. Like any normal parents.
6:44 - Karma will soon break, I can feel it.
6:50 - 6 seconds. No, here is still queen, as evidence by the stalking devouts that inhabit the area. Hornet only becomes queen AFTER Hera dies, in which at that point the Stalking devouts STILL refuse to believe that Hera is dead, as thoughts by dream nail dialouge do not change.
6:59 - I mean, she doesn't have a name, and the shades are essentially corporeal ghosts, right? They float, they have infinite soul capacity, and they break free of the mask when give the chance. So why not?
7:06 - I mean, you have to kill the bug to hollow out it's insides and flesh, so it kills it as part of the prep work. I somewhat agree with you then.
7:11 - Well no shit. Also hey look it's 7/11!
7:19 - No. I think otherwise. Refer to one of my previous points for as to why.
7:25 - Then please explain what the force is.
7:30 - Her battle arena has a vessel in the background, Broken Vessel, Nosk's victim collection, and the fact she knows where the abyss is states otherwise.
7:33 - She did, but Zote isn't void, I mean, I suppose you could prove it, but unlike vessels he has a mouth. If you want to, I might disprove as many points as I can in that video, too.
TL;DR - Nearly every point made in this video is easily disproved.
I disagree, but the video was well made. Also Silksong confirms Hornet is made out of screen transitions so yeah no void
"Until silksong comes out and its revealed that hornet is made of Lifeblood"
Silksong: Actually reveals hornet is made of *s i l k*
By ur logic if the hollow knights head is the same shape as hornets then is the hollow knight also Hera’s child?
Also maybe hornets head is like thank because the pale kings head is like that?
She has basically said she isn't void
So uh, then why does she give soul when struck while fighting , something that void creatures dont when you attack them
The hollow knight doesn't.
Hornet can talk unlike a vessel? BUT THE COLLECTOR IS PURE VOID AND CAN SCREAM. *VOICE TO CRY SUFFERING CONFIRMED*
Did _YOU_ draw all of this(except the original stuff)? If yes,then it's AWESOME!
Yeah I did, hollow knight characters are pretty easy to draw. It's a fun artstyle, I love drawing baby hornet.
@@cardboardhed1967 any Tipps then?could you perhaps post something on Reddit regarding how to draw?(I normally tend to be overexact,since one millimeter off could ruin the whole picture,in my opinion(like,if you draw a 5 cm long line but your 2 points of reference are only 7 mm apart))
I'm not the best artist man there are much better places to learn. I'm pretty much self taught, it's all practice.
the hollow knight is not completely hollow for having one thought in his head which was to make his father proud
I have a question nobody seems to be able to tell me: With all that heartlessness going on with the King, he probably could have just taken in the Radiance on his own. This dude is so heartless, he let all his children die and suffer and justifying it.
But the king has motives and feelings, even if some would call them evil ones. He cares about at least one thing: his kingdom, and it's perpetuity. This makes him far from hollow.
@@cardboardhed1967 That is a fair point. Thank you. :)
Well in the Silk Song demo when Hornet dies u can see she leaves a cocoon made of silk, she doesn't have a shade like Little Ghost and the other vessels
Edit: and when she gets hit she releases white particles (soul or silk) and Little Ghost releases black particles (void)
So she is more silk than void. That is all.
I feel that this question can be solved by simple maths that many have probably seen
Pale king + White lady + void = The vessels
Pale king + Herrah = Hornet
Feels like sometimes we forget the simplest answers
What i proposed in this video was
Pale king + herrah + void = hornet
I agree with both videos! because both are just theories.
more research is needed.
Until team cherry launch a Fact bomb to destroy 1 of the video
there are many points, they all hurt my brain but I can see how someone could believe this
1. There are characters with black body and they aren't Void ( Zote, Elderbug, Hunter... )
2. There are also characters with no visible mouth ( Quirrel, Pale King, White Lady, Tiso... )
3. She is strong, cause she is a daughter of a *GOD*
4. THERE ARE CHARACTERS THAT ARE WEARING CLOAKS
5. She was born in Deepnest.
6. Hornet is afraid of coming down in the Abyss.
7:34
me: wait a minute,
zote's a vessel?!
still think hornet isn't void, but I like ya voice so I'll stick around for other videos
This man thinks you need void to make baby’s
Cool vídeo And drawings specially.
Hornet is not void tho. As you said, "The best solution is the easiest one." She literally says that she's not hollow. The void hollows people out, removing their gender, mind and voice. This argument can be found within many of Hornet's own dialogue as well as in the White Palace. So stop being a stubborn flat-earther.
Edit: also the lie that says that Hornet is void has been 100% debunked by Silksong.
He literally said he is on the fence about the debate... He's just talking about a debate which at the time was not answered... like imagine being a flat earther before people knew the earth was round... you would actually have a point lol 😅🤣
@@sgt_pasty2033 He made this video in response to Mossbag saying that Hornet was not void. He had more than enough evidence and counter-evidence to prove his theory correct.
@@CalmMagma 0:45
@@CalmMagma playing devil's advocate... he was just tryna add to a debate with no defo answer at the time... It's chill now we know tho lol 😂
@@sgt_pasty2033 ...If he really was on the fence, he wouldn't have made a video just to talk about it, specially with such inconclusive evidence. If anyone here is playing devil's advocate, it's this guy.
Who else looked at the date of publishment to see if this was an April Fools joke?
I almost thought this wasn’t satire, but I’m glad it is.
…
Right?
God I hope this is a parody/meme
not a bad video but you reached matpat level of misinterpretation and mistaken lore interpretation
I disagree, but with the effort you put into this video I kind of agree. Great video.
Hornet is made of screen transitions
Maybe ghost is just a name also love how he made many points of why she isn’t void
1-There is no evidence that the Pale king needs void to reproduce.
2-The king's molds are made of void, but have metal shells. Where did hornet's head come from?
3- the vessel's heads are random in the way that two brothers aren't exactly the same. The pale king's geans are likely the dominant once, so no tree headed vessels. Maybe Herras's geans are equally as dominant so hornet is a micks if them.
4- he mated with a f*** tree. Why not white something from the same (biological) kingdom?
5- baby hornet is absolutely adorable
My right ear really enjoyed this
1:45 in silksong when you dash Backwards you can clearly see that she has more legs
Also doesn't have a shade
And also the white boss (i forgot its name) calls hornet "spider" and she uses Silk sooooo
This is a pretty good theory
I love how barely any people are talking about that hornet fetish art pic'
50% void 50%waifu
Hornet is a biological child of Herrah and PK. If she was void she wouldn’t be able to make silk.
I think the Pale king could breed with Herrah and the White Lady precisely because he's a Wyrm God. This video presents some good points, but as Mossbag said, there are a lot more hoops to jump through to say she is void than isn't.
Then the silksong demo happened sooo
The real Void was the gods we killed along the way.
4:14
bold of you to assume I can't have sex with a tree.
some vessels look like other bugs like when you kill the broken vessels in the hunters journal it says that the broken vessel looks like other bugs in hollownest
if hornet is void then so is elederbug according to your logic
Good videi, but you forgot that the void empties the mind of anything it fuses with so if hornet WAS void she would not be able to talk.
The final nail in the coffin of Hornet being void for me is the fact that Hornet was a "gift" to Herrah from the pail king. Why infuse her with void if she only exists to be a half god heir to deepnest. There's just no reason to infuse her with void. Especially since the vessels are essentially corpses of the children of the Pale King and the White Lady, who have been killed and reanimated by the void. And I follow the theory that the Hollow Knight isn't anything special when it comes to the vessels. I believe that the vessels were just made in a V E R R Y large batch and the Hollow Knight just "ascended" the abyss the fastest so the Pale King just so happened to pick it. And all of the extra dead vessels (the ones with broken shells in the abyss) are broken beyond the point of reanimation due to falling all the way down the abyss. Also the part where you talked about the black egg draining emotions is absolute bullshit. If the black egg drained emotions, than H O W was the Hollow Knight corrupted by The Radiance if its thoughts were drained? Also with the sealed siblings ending we S E E Hornet falling unconscious inside the black egg. Why would that happen if all that was happening was her thoughts being drained? In the dream no more ending we also see that the black egg is made of void. Void is well known to be VERY lethal to any living thing that isn't void, INCLUDING
G O D S as evidenced by The Radiance DEFINITELY being killed by it, and the Pale King probably being killed by it. Going back to the sealed siblings ending, the knight and the Hollow Knight are clearly unaffected by the black egg, but Hornet is dying due to over exposure to void (the black egg). Why would that be if Hornet is already made of void????🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔
there is no proof or anything in the game's text that explicitly contradicts the other side and you are mostly just basing this on visual similarities, also both the White Lady and the Pale King are classified as "Pale Beings" so why couldn't they have kids, etc.
Although I disagree with this theory, I think your evidence is well thought out unlike other Hornet is void supporters, who think ScReEn TrAnSiTiOnS are why hornet is void
When void creature get hit we can see void particles
When infected creature get hit we can see infection particles
When normal creature get hit we can see soul particles.
For example: black particles when hit collector, sibling, shade, the knight
Orange particles when hit almost every regular energy
Wight particles with hit mantises, sung defender, oro, mato, sheo, HORNET
You scared the shit out of me when your voice came from behind
Just one question
Why does she not blast void when hit like the collector or the knight
0:53 we got, hollow knight, hollow knight, hollow knight, Mr. beast: understandable, then just **Nier Automata Waifus**