Naomi Klein on Steve Bannon, The Failures Of The Left and her Doppelgänger | Ash Meets Naomi Klein
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ย. 2023
- In Doppelganger, Naomi Klein takes a journey into the uncanny world of anti-vaxxer conspiracy theory and far right propaganda. As she goes through the looking glass, she discovers dark forces bent on warping our politics in their image. What starts as a story of mistaken identity with her namesake Naomi Wolf, soon becomes a parable of how social media and identity transformed a liberal feminist into a gun-toting momfluencer sidekick to Steve Bannon. Ash sat down with Naomi to talk about the perils of personal branding, Barbie’s environmental footprint and the war mentality of the far right.
You can buy Naomi's book here: www.penguin.co.uk/books/45396...
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2 of my favorites!
Great observation about Bernie’s campaign and Covid. I met Naomi in Vegas at a little gathering during the primary. The campaign collapsing was doubly heartbreaking for me. Made me hate the establishment even more. But hate in general isn’t helpful, it twists people, and lots of people are still twisted.
Among other things, I remember witnessing the somber energy in the news rooms as they struggled to get their footing while reporting on Nevada’s results. The horror on Dana Bash’s face as she reported that Bernie appears to be the victor in Nevada, and that *gasp* exit polls showed he had done so with an unmistakably multiracial turnout.
Interesting point!! I think it is good to know the capacity to loathe and/or hate, to then reflect on those emotions and realise how to change those emotional responses to think more clearly with more understanding. Everyone is a three dimensional character with background and reasons. However, the likes of Bannon, Carlson, Trump, this current government ect really do seem motivated to be soul destroying. They want to divide, deceive, spread fear, exploit, distort reality and so forth. It's so unpleasant!!!
@@Anastasia.03I had such high hopes then. It was his election to lose, and if he had just been a teensy bit aggressive and stressed how their platform was a better choice than Biden’s…Anyways, we’re fucked. Heh
That "establishment," is the same one that CHEATED Bernie, yet people trust it when it comes to Covid?!?! 🥴
Another great long form interview. Naomi Klein has been a hero of mine since she wrote No Logo. Keep them coming Novara.
Could listen to these intelligent women for hours ❤❤👍
Take away: Trust the Pharma. Trust the MSNBC and schedule your 8th booster.
No need for sarcasm.
@@tylerdurden8378 ... He said, intending the most disingenuous kind of sarcasm ...
@@tylerdurden8378it's an oxymoron ty
@@bobbart4198>Disingenuous sarcasm
What are you drivelling on about?
I have listened to a couple of interviews with Naomi Klein over the last couple of days in anticipation of the delivery of her latest book. I have to say this is the one that was most thoughtful. Thx as always Ash and NM.
I m just happy to hear "my own Wario" come up in a discussion of this calibre, lol.
I really enjoyed this interview. Ash does a great job. Looking forward to more Ash interviews.
listening to Naomi feels like waking up on a field in springtime. Her wisdom is just unparalleled.
And she has such a digestible way of delivering that wisdom!
@@riveranalyse Yeah pre-digested wisdom. Like a mommy bird at the nest giving her chicks regurgitated bug meal. If that's your idea of value.....have at it.
@@BonRain8734 So true.
😂
Naomi's wisdom is brought to you by Pfizer.
Fantastic interview. The last 4 minutes were very meaningful for me.
As a non US citizen I think everybody should read The Shock Doctrine and No Logo as well as her other books eg Disater Capitalism and A Green New Deal to understand US foreign policy and geopolitics of the 21st century.Another great author in that respect is John Perkins espesially his book Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Excellent interview
Honestly, this book she's promoting here is right up there as well.
It's brilliant.
@@trevfindley5704 I have not read it yet, lookung forwars excitedly. She asked her FB followers to tell their storiess of doppekgangers, I have one which I related as hundreds of other followers , it was fun
What solutions does she promote other than the status quo?
@@Uncanny_Mountainfor someone who’s supposed to be soooo bright, can’t believe she still buys into the left right BS. anyone who’s on the other side of the left, seems to be classed as far right. Lazy and quite ridiculous
Some people are not born to apply the things they help to make sense of . It takes a lot of energy to Make Semse of Bigpicture stuff, the application of the sense making are up to the people to do. By making local alliances and makiing life changes to educate themselfs and others about the problems in socio-economic and politic realms.@@Uncanny_Mountain
I get the anger and feeling of betrayal when someone is attacked by the political faction they’ve always aligned with (and it happens on both sides of the divide, just ask Liz Cheney) but when someone abandons all their previous positions and embraces the opposite, all it shows is they never believed a word of what they’d said in the first place.
Naomi Wolf fits into that large group of grifters with Tulsi Gabbard, Andrew Yang, Kirsten Sinema, Nancy Mace, Cornel West, RFK Jr. and so on
Or perhaps they recognized the limitations of their previously held left wing beliefs. Personally I think the left has lost its soul. I agree wholeheartedly with Wolfe’s perspective on what has happened in these recent years and I wanted to hear Klein’s perspective. I see many levels of overlap in both Naomi’s perspective. Interesting conversation.
@@coletteharman378
No I don’t buy that. Or rather I buy that if the person never put any thought into what they believed in the first place and just went “I’m left wing, what does the left believe?”
How do you think the left has lost its way?
Yes. Or that they just likme extreme positions, no matter what they are.
Such an amazing interview. I could listen to these two women for hours. Really thought provoking.
Maybe your thoughts are easily provoked! 😂
Tremendous ideas as always by Naomi and Ash. Thank you from the bottom of my age-old lefty heart.
When did your age old left heart stop questioning corporations, captured regulators and corrupted political officials? I recall a time when lefties did that.
To old i think since you cant detect lies, collusions and delusions in it anymore.
Naomi really nails it, I know my thoughts were vindicated by Naomi’s narrative. Thanks again Ash for your brilliant contributions to the cause of honest investigative journalism. eaarth is compiling a list of notable journalists, you will be definitely on this.❤neil
Naomi is almost like a mentor to Ash the way she shares her wisdom in such a supportive way. A great conversation between two great thinkers, and Ash that Shakespeare quote was 👌
Read the TH-cam comments section on any video from the Hadrian’s Wall tree being cut down to Liverpool having a goal disallowed by VAR and someone will be trying to spin it into some grand conspiracy…
As usual, an excellent interview by Ash of a very grounded and intelligent woman. Excellent work as usual from NM! Well done.
40:00, regarding the almost manic swing for the (worldwide) left from the highs of the Sanders campaign, Nevada etc, even Corbyn, to the start of the bad times.
The death of Michael Brooks feels like it was the turning point in what could have been an upswelling of hopeful action in 2020. His audience was still small compared to his potential , but he was so influential, that his death personally hit enough left voices to have an impact, and then the loss of the potential of his message at that critical time was even worse. His voice was unique in it's sincerce anchored hopefulness, an actually cosmopolitan opinion, not empty globalism, but true global humanity.
Naomi says at one point that faux-populists like Bannon shrivels when the real deal shows up. Michael was the antidote to the Tate/Peterson message.
True (self) empowerment through collective action.
I read a book by Naomi Wolf called Misconceptions. It was written in the early 2000s, I think 2004. It was about her horrific and disillusioning experience trying to plan her own natural birth and how our US medical system turned it into a nightmare scenario. She was given poor prenatal care, had her choices dismissed, and ended up having a C-section in which she was conscious and could see the surgery happening in a mirror. While she recovered, her husband at the time, despite his claims of supporting women's rights, basically left her to raise the baby and do the housework and didn't help much at all. When she spoke to her brother about her frustration with her husband, he basically told her that all men will take advantage of women if they can get away with it. It's pretty clear in the book that she chose to divorce him.
IMO, that pregnancy and what followed was the turning point for her. She described her pregnancy as revelatory because she had been staunchly pro-choice, yet was enamoured with the fact she had life inside of her. At that point she was advocating for trying to establish connections between well-meaning pro-life advocates at the grassroots and well-meaning pro-choice advocates at the grass roots to solve issues around unwanted pregnancies, rather than taking the word of officials or high-ranking people in organizations.
When something like the betrayal of a partner and betrayal by caregivers and institutions you trusted hits home, it's only natural a person's worldview could be completely overturned. Reading her book now I would say that her experience really was one of horrific misogyny that epitomises what many women experience with their partners and the medical establishment every day. I think her situation and the depth of the personal betrayal she experienced was overwhelming to the point it caused her to call into question her own belief systems, rather than acknowledging and calling out the hypocrisy and misogyny she was being subjected to.
It really is unfortunate because we live in a country that is deeply divided and we could afford to have more sound and reasoned voices trying to make a pathway towards unity.
This was fantastic, I really enjoy downstream and the way in which Ash (and the other hosts) engages with these people on a variety of topics.
"The only way out is through, and the only way through is together." - Greg Bloom
"It's not me, it's us" is also a vision of a society turning away from individualism and becoming dedicated to collective communities again.
Surely the left is all bout collectivism?
when it suits. unfortunately..
Sounds like my schizophrenic friend
"One thing I learned from the pandemic, is that most doctors do not think for themselves. They simply do what their told (from the top) and rationalize away the harm they do. "
Great conversation, great company.
Thank you to both Ash and Naomi for the work they each do, respectively. It’s very encouraging hearing you both talk! Keep up the good work ✊
Quite awesome. This is one of my favorite Naomi Klein interviews!
Its great sundays are picking up, this has been a great interview! ❤
Oh my god. I’m one minute into this episode and didn’t realize that Naomi Wolf and Naomi Klein are two different people till they just starting talking about it 😭
Just remember, if the Naomi be Klein, you’re doing just fine. If the Naomi be Wolf, oof.
Useful mnemonic. Alternatively, a Wolf in sheep's clothing?
Novara Media is one of the best online forums at present. Provocative, intellectual discussions by a young generation navigating the online world with journalistic integrity and well documented articles. It gives me hope that the world may still be salvageable.
Great interview as usual Ash. I have been missing Naomi Klein's voice.
“Not me. Us”
“For the many; not the few”
“L’Avenir En Commun”
The parallels between Bernie Sanders, Jeremy Corbyn and Jean-Luc Mélenchon were blatantly obvious all along; but too many people still look at politics through a “national” prism, and are unwilling/incapable of tapping into the wider pool of tried and tested tactics and strategies that may have worked elsewhere, and only need tweaking to the national, historical, cultural and socioeconomic contexts.
The impression of having one’s policies and messages being understood and supported on a wider international stage, with mutual cooperation and support between these three candidates alone, would have gone a long way in mobilising a wider movement, as opposed to each being left to fight alone on the home front of domestic politics.
Globalisation has been around for God knows how long now, and yet French or British activists barely bother to look at what’s happening on the other side of the Channel!
To think that people like Rosa Luxemburg would travel across Europe before the First World War, to talk in front of, and learn from how parallel political movements or workers’ unions were fighting for their rights.
In this day and age of such sophisticated communication technologies, it’s galling to see how a wider global view and understanding of the world has not followed through, while all the main strategies of our adversaries are built on and consolidated through a global framework….
Such an inspiring and touching conversation. Thank you both.
So glad Naomi shared her experience with Gaza and their border. We need to talk more about what Israel does with their borders at the Palestinian territories, both to leftist Jews + to everyday normal Palestinian people living and working and needing passports… it's a thing 😕
Auspicious, she's great. Shock Therapy for you, Ash!!
38:30 One of the most cynical parts of the Barbie movie and its transparency in terms of its capitalist capture of revolutionary narratives and themes is the "red pill"/"blue pill" moment, in which the "red pill" moment is a Birkenstock product placement
Haha! Hadn't quite caught that. Every time I think about that movie I despise it more.
It couldn’t have been any other sandal. The name is synonymous with un-fashion. Maybe Crocs said no. 😂
I adored that Wario reference, it wasn't even shoe-horned in too as it fitted perfectly. Sublime from Ash as ever, as was the whole conversation, a great listen!
Great conversation. Just got the book and so looking forward to reading
Chaotic narrative with an interviewer continuously injecting herself to interrupt important points being explained ... what a struggle.
This was great! Tks so much for the interview!
Going to save and listen again. 😁👍
I'm living here in Italy and I been without a job since July 2023 and this is the best video I've seen all year in regards to Europe and it's decline in finance, true to the tee.❤
I've seen so many businesses and people come and go in the last 15 years it isn't even funny.
I've heard stories and even met immigrants here that have made capitol by illegal means whether in gambling, prostitution, scams and drugs etc etc, then instead of constructing or building something with said capitol here in Italy like investing in the country, they just take it and move to another country because even they seen the writting on the wall upon arrival between bureaucracy and corruption.
I've been wanting to start up a business here for years and everytime I talk to people that have businesses and are hard working honest 9-5 people they always tell me the same thing, "Italy isn't worth investing in, you will just end up in debt or bankrupt, better to work for someone and let them deal with the BS of the country".
I feel this is so unfair to the owners of businesses and industries here and not to mention taxes on almost every thing the government can put their greedy eyes on.
25:19 Economics became a dead issue for the Left in the West when Clinton, Douglas, Chretien, Blair et al. on the Centre-Left adopted Thatcher-Reagan neoliberalism holus-bolus. When that happened, issues such as sexual freedom and identity became dominant, leading to the repulsive situation we now have, where the values we fought for and won as rights in the 1960's, racial equality of opportunity and freedom of speech, were replaced by diametrically opposite "values" on the left around 2015.
🎯
ooh, this will be a good listen. Very much enjoyed Naomi Klein's recent interview on the QAA podcast.
I'd love to say I had this duo on my bingo card.
Didn't but delighted!!!
Great conversation ladies. The left needs to see where the right gets things right and the right need to understand and recognize where the left get it. Both are seeing two sides of a broken system.
Well written
What does the right get right? Genuine question. I’m not a hard leftist, but the right only works for the richest people and religious fundamentalists
I agree. However the problem is visible right here in this interview. Where Naomi at several times, expresses doubts about her "truth". About the lengths she goes to to verify what she thinks is truth. And how her mind can change as new information is found. The far right operate very differently. They have the truth. End of story. It is a facet of the right wing mind. At the core, is fear and everything above that is avoidance of what challenges them. People like Naomi Klein, as is clear here, accept the challenge and seek it out.
@@OrangeNash Absolutely atypical of what passes for the left these days, though.
Conspiracy Culture has its problems ofc but I think many of these people feel there’s big lies and are driven by curiosity
It’s easy for people to be snobs and look down on others
Do you believe the majority of what you hear on the news?🤔
They get that there are lies, but their curiosity stops there. It's not snobbery to call out intellectual laziness.
they actually think that just saying "it's on fox news" automatically is an argument of an idea's invalidity. It's insane how arrogant and dismissive these two are.
@@shadowbeastie
I am more left than right but I admit there’s far more arrogance on the left than the right
@@twominutesturkish6664 very true. the left now prides itself on banning books they've never read. it's atrocious.
Naomi Klein is not so little but Naomi Wolf is definitely howling and Bannon is The Fat Controller
♥
What a great reflection about being a journalist or being a part of a movement. 👍
@1:09:50 This is a question that Zygmunt Bauman tackled years ago. "Liquid Modernity" is a must-read for anyone interested in this question. The Pragmatists also dealt with this concern, G.H. Mead in particular.
I totally agree with Klein on her point about education. I would think critical analysis taught from a young age coupled with calm, assertive, yet respectful debate will help foster a healthier society.
Really? All I’ve heard her do is trash, ridicule and call people conspiracy theorists if she disagrees with them 😂
Doppelganger looks like such a fantastic and timely book. I shall try to handsell it as much as possible on my job as a bookseller :)
All of these collective horrendous dystopian experiences we've just been through and which largely still exist, I believe was/is just a " dry run" for what is to come........
No No, didn't you hear Naiomi Klein? The emperor has such a LOVELY outfit on, don't you see?
Great interview Ash 👍
I have high hopes that Ash Sarkar will save this world.
Can ideologies create their opposites? Interesting idea. Capitalism is kind of infamous for absorbing that which initially opposes it and then marketing it back to us.
What a great interview. Thanks.
Great conversation and it's obvious you two enjoyed it.
I’d really love to hear a moderated discussion with both Naomis. I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with both. Now that would be an interesting convo!
Klein is a coward. She would never.
Fantastic conversation- thank you xR
It’s one of those tiny mass psychosis! Like the Mandela Effect but working on a different part of the brain.
I can’t say exactly how/when I twigged that Naomi Klein and Naomi Wolf were not one, but I confess I had The Beauty Myth, No Logo and Fences & Windows on my bookshelf at the time!
Having read the books in that order I’d even constructed a vague narrative of Naomi getting radical after a slightly squishy libfem start.
Weird to discover I’m not the only one to have suffered this mind glitch in the context of a discussion on doppelgängers.
Love Naomi Klein, but I'm not convinced the phenomenon of doppelgangers is worth an entire book. Feel like she's stretching here
I think the discussion of our polarization, conspiracy, fascism and mental health is well worth the entire book.
absolutely, she is obsessed
@@ChrisInToon obsessed with what?
The book is about conspiracy thinking during the Covid years, with kleins personal doppelgänger Anecdotes as starting points
@@sberesford2523 If you think you need her book to explain those issues to you, you're probably part of the problem, just as she is.
All of those from Occupy didn’t stand up for women at all when democrats redefined us in federal law to include men with fetishes and dissociative disorders. Naomi sat down and didn’t say a blessed thing.
The other Naomi did.
True but the other Naomi thinks 5 G is going to kill us all. She loved Belfast as a tranquil paradise ' just like being in the 1970s' because they lack 5G. Clearly she has no idea what happened in Belfast in the 70s....
c'mon she was having a hard time with her twitter mentions, it's a hard life when you have a twitter addiction, don't you know?
Fantastic interview, and glad that Naomi Klein makes the point, albeit briefly, that we're not post-pandemic. As painful and traumatic an experience as the pandemic has been and continues to be, it's important for us on the left to protect ourselves and others in solidarity as we continue to educate, organize, agitate, and not give in to defeatism.
Klein usually gets a lot wrong and is always full of contradictions. No Logo was completely refuted by two professors in their book "The Rebel Sell".
Watch out, she'll call you an anti-semite! (hey don't blame me, she literally said in doppelganger that the act of confusing her with Wolf is "antisemitism")
@@shadowbeastie And I will wear it proudly.
All the conspiracy theories must be valued and detailed because all the truth is over there. No one knows what happened an will happen exactly. Almost general or ignorant people tend to disregard conspiracy theory as absolute fakes. But be sure?
Really interesting conversation, thanks.
I‘m terrible with names and was worried I made this mistake, too. After a quick google search I can say, I didn’t really, only mixed up Naomi Klein and Amy Goodman. 😅
Fantastic conversation.
A great interview. Thank you for sharing.
Naomi Klein the coincidence theorists. lol
Best Downstream from Ash so far! Brilliant thank you for this
Two amazing women! Great interview!
Loved every minute of this fascinating interview; great plug for Novara at the end from Naomi Klein
Fantastic discussion, I first heard Noami speak on Factually and this was every bit as enlightening with a much clearer probing of what Left action is needed in the movement. Thank you both
Only 25 mins in, and this is very good.
The smugness is off the scale with Naomi K. "I'm one of those writers that can afford to pay my own fact checkers" Really??
Writing on a fundamental level is about your version of the truth. No one, can farm that out.
This article has helped me make a decision about which of the Naomis I prefer.
those fact checkers are sure taking her for a ride.
Yep
Worse again, she is perpetuating the myth of the importance of fact checkers. It's a made up term with zero legitimacy, aimed at sanitizing one set of researchers while demonising all others!
I had to put the book down because not only did she not "cite" any of her apparent "facts" she literally misquotes people and re-frames their arguments to suit her purposes. She is nothing more than a propagandist now. And a jealous one at that. Her husband is the son of a vaccine supplier. Guess she forgot to mention that little detail.
This all sounds very complicated am I the only one feeling this way?
That really was a grim six months. It was so depressing and I wasn’t even actively involved in the movement. I had faith and hope invested in it, still feel gutted.
I bought her latest book on audible. Is this interview on podcast? Love it. But too long for me on TH-cam. Easier for me to listen on podcast. Edit: found it on podcasts by keying in novara media.
7:06 OH THE IRONY of her advocating for government "fact checkers". So lost. I love how she conveniently forgets to cite any sources for her "facts" or state in the opening of the book or anywhere else that she has HUGE CONFLICTS OF INTEREST when discussing "vaccines" and "safety"......
Omg Naomi Klein on my favourite show how did I miss this. I read no logo years ago. This is so cool.
Naomi Klein is literally stalking Naomi Wolf. There is something wrong with Klein!
omg - these two exceedingly smart righteous women - love listening to them, love watching them engage each other.
Wow. Great interview. Amazing women!!!
£5 per month added to your funding, sorry I can't do more!
Amazing. Well done, Ash.
I totally agree with comments on educating the public in analysing facts and reality, on the importance of bringing such analysis among people.
I don't know anything about Naomi Klein's work but, there is something interesting going on beneath the surface here. Maybe if i knew her work it would be clear and obvious. Anyway I can't quite place it, but the obscure reference i made in the live chat is on You Tube free movies in High Quality
How is being anti vax a right wing comspiracy?
Misdirecting righteous indignation at "free" market failures; giving people the impression that they don't need healthcare (they won't be getting it anyway if they can't afford health insurance); flagging up "liberal elite" figures as the enemy and looking to male right wing leaders as saviours .....
Quite a coup, guys to get Naomi Klein on. Brilliant.
Ash's Wario line killed me 🤣
I'm writing a fan fiction where Naomi Klein and Angela Davis fuse together and write a book with Noam Chomskys pen
Did NK sell out out? Or, buy in?
Does this woman even know what the word fascist means? Instead of having an honest face to face debate with those she disagrees with she just lobs ad hominem attacks.
exactly. it's painful to watch.
Naomi Klein. You're not this stupid. Pushing this narrative, when you don't have to is stupid. You will be held accountable.
It's not a right left issue anymore, as you can admire Naomie for her book,The Shock Doctrine , but equally be suspicious of the vested interests involved with the pandemic,Maui fire or the response to climate change and consequent assault on our basic liberties.
Another one babbling about "liberties" without even trying to analyse the existential level treat.
@@vitalyl1327an existential treat. Lol
@@vitalyl1327what?
Does credit not resemble attribution? Attribution is essential to understanding arising from appreciating context, it seems to me.
Thanks Naomi and Novara!
Few get so deep 33:01 !
Ahhh , I have been trying to find this girls content for some time. She gave a really interesting debate which l watched a while back
Girl? 😅
@@vaska1999 I am boy girl . How dare you insult ! 😤
I wonder what Michele Landsberg thought of the "get your woman under control" comment. She did raise her son as a feminist, after all.
oxymoron 💁🏿♂️
I wonder where these two stand on Julian Assange. It's funny that the subject never came up sitting in London!!