CSM wishlist: - Let the MoP grant Possessed a +1 Strength Bonus, or even a +1 To Wound. There is so many S5 melee units in this list already, and these big, bulky models can easily be justified hitting a bit harder. - Let Possessed get Dev Wounds when Charging instead of once per game. - The regular Sorcerer should be a "luitenant" type option like the MeE, as there is no way he can fit even vaguely competitively otherwise. - A bit cheaper Obliterators (even Liam thought so despite winning this weekend). - D6+2, AP3 on Maulerfiend Fists/Defiler Claws. - Cheaper Heldrake and Lord Discordant - Cheaper Abaddon (or give him a bit of Feel No Pain so that he can actually lead from the front like the warrior king he is supposed to be) - Some strat/detatchment rule adjustments to help make the detachments a bit more internally balanced. A few tweaks here and there could do a lot. - Minor cost adjustments as mentioned otherweise.
and Oh yea, a reduction of cost for +5 Legionnaires, since the 5 man is so optimal for them when compared to the 10 man unit in terms of options etc. They're not like Plaguemarines etc after all. This should apply a bit more across the game in general where suitable naturally.
@@WontonDestruction I kind of see the point, except that I also fear it would make him less of the sort of "lead from the front type warrior king" as the lore describes him to be and instead incentivize you to keep him hidden in the backfield to just grant vehicles re-rolls. :-/
An issue yes. Maybe an option to make him a bit more tempting could be to make sacrificing his assistants have a bit more potential as well. Feels very aenimic compared to other Mortal Wound rules in the game...
@@runeh3022 cant wait in 6 months when he is going to be like 60 pts and i can take 3 brick of foot chosen with him, getting 2 ablative wound with a 4++ and +1 to wound.
he can lead accursed cultists and a min squad with an apostle can go in a rhino. Not sure why you'd do that, but I guess I'm Raiders or Cults he can get the scout enhancement and give the rhino scout too lol
@@UntestedGaming he can be amazing in cults from what I've understood, but considering he is actually a Chaos Marine, I just wish he was a bit more optimal in at least 6 of the other detachments. :-/
Chaos lord with jump pack sounds cute with 10 raptors taking 4 flamers in veterans of the long war. Free let the galaxy burn. Only use found- 24 flamer hits, maybe 4 wounds on the wrong target.
Since they bring up the Master of Possession having 8” move and being attached to Chosen, which have a 6” move, can someone please explain how moving a unit with different movement values work? As I understand the rules, when you move a unit you technically move each model individually. So the MoP would move it’s 8” but the rest of the Chosen would still only move 6”? Or do you take the highest value and apply it to the whole unit, so since the Chosen would get the MoP’s 8” move?
Each model moves separately, so the MOP would be hanging on the edge of the unit 2 inches from your chosens. I tried a list based around that and the problem you run into is you make your charges but your chosen have to pile in something else because they are too far from your charge target.
I had a Solitaire blitz and charge my Cypher but I rolled 6 6's on my saves and he lived with 1 wound. It ended up being the pivotal point in the game, as it was near the center where his Avatar of Khaine was, and Cypher living until my turn meant any defensive strats for the Avatar were too expensive.
I wish Lucius could be thrown into a unit of Chosen. But it's also really funny overwatching with him and annihilating a squad of Warp Spiders or something.
I'd actually rank Noise Marines much higher and near Legionaires just for the fact they're actually a cheap shooting unit (and a mobile one at that) vs Legionaires being only good for melee. That they get Battleline with Lucius is a bonus.
The Heldrake is way too expensive, but it's attacks do devastating wounds on a 2+ to units with the Fly keyword. That's 2 wounds each. He needs more attacks.
so many needless changes to CSM datasheets. Why can venom crawlers only level up in melee now ? Why did they change possessed to only have dev wounds once per game? Why did oblits basically get hit with 4 nertfs at once ? Feelsbadman.
Both Vindicators and Forgefiends suffer from the problem of economies of scale, where they’re casino guns when there’s one of them and then actually deadly when there’s two to three. I would definitely say the Vindicator is better than the Forgefiend in this regard, however I don’t get the enjoyment of murdering my own tank with the Vindicator, so it ends up balancing out.
Can someone explain why they say the hellbrute needs vehicles in the list with it? Nothing in the rules says it only affects vehicles? Also what do they mean when they say Fabius bile can blank 2 attacks cuz of the surgeon? The surgeon’s ability is to blank 1 and Fabius just gives toughness to the unit and he himself comes back on a 2+
Helbrute doesn’t “need” vehicles, but they are the best thing for him to buff so you want to build that way. Fabius can “blank 2 saves” because he can blank 1, and then allocate a scary attack with lots of damage to his little surgeon friend to save a space marine body
@@ArtofWar40kbut how can I start allocate attacks to this little helper when the bodyguard unit is still alive? He is part of Fabius - the character unit. I thought first the Bodyguards must be removed before I am allowed to allocate attacks to the character??
The problem of Abaddon is his defense profile. He is just a dude in Terminator armor. And not even he has fight first?? Come on. Compare it with the Lion. He brings so much more and before the Dataslate he costed the same. And the Lion has stats like a vehicle plus 3++ plus fight first. That’s ridiculous. At least a FNP, Fight first, higher toughness or Lone Op would help Abaddon a lot. But his defense is a bad joke. Only for a buffing unit he is way too expensive.
No this gets debated on the csm groups all the time. The wording for pactbound is unmodified roll of 5+ is a crit, so any 5s and 6s crit. The hellbrute wording is when you select a bonus for dark pacts you get both. So both are on 5s
@@chaosclgoh really?? I always played in Pactbound that only the 5+ on the mark for one bonus and every 6 on top for the Hellbrute. When really every 5+ gets the double bonus that makes the Helbrute so much better in pactbound!
@@MiniMike_80 yeah thats not right, if a crit is 5 now why would one be on 5s and the other be on 6s? As per wording they're both on 5s, 10 possessed in range of abaddon and a helbrute is a great way to make friends 😂
Tbh csm is just too expensive as for now. Warp talons brick is 270 thats ridicoulus to the point that they need to kill unit of trash every turn but they cant bc game is too short.
I'd disagree a little that Chosen don't hit that hard, especially if you use the right strategems and/or characters. In my last game, I had a brick of Chosen one-shot a Brutalis Dread sitting on an objective by using Ruinous Raid, and that was before my character or the two Chosen armed with Power Fists even fought. -3 AP is no joke.
You have to jump through a lot of hoops to make them work well though. Having the enemy unit on an objective, and the chosen in a transport at the beginning of the turn in the right position is only going to happen once or twice per game
0:00 Sponsors
1:18 Intro
4:03 Chaos Bikers
5:50 Chaos Land Raider
7:10 Chaos Lord
8:36 Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor
10:03 Chaos Lord with Jump Pack
11:10 Cultists
12:50 Helbrute
15:38 Chaos Sorcerer
16:50 Chosen
24:58 Chaos Rhino
26:57 Cypher
28:54 Defiler
29:53 Dark Commune & Accursed Cultists
33:37 Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armor
34:24 Abaddon the Despoiler
37:03 Cultist Firebrand
39:05 Demon Prince
40:15 Demon Prince with Wings
41:06 Fabius Bile
45:20 Felgore Beastmen
45:42 Forgefiend
48:20 Havocs
49:25 Dark Apostle
50:19 Heldrake
52:01 Haarkan Worldclaimer
53:14 Legionaires
53:50 Lord Discordant
54:40 Lord of Skulls
57:38 Master of Executions
58:51 Maulerfiend
1:00:06 Octolith Crown
1:00:47 Noise Marines
1:01:26 Obliterators
1:02:37 Possessed
1:03:35 Chaos Predator Annihilator
1:04:19 Chaos Predator Destructor
1:04:36 Raptors
1:05:43 Chaos Spawn
1:06:45 Chaos Terminators
1:08:13 Traitor Enforcer
1:09:03 Vashtorr
1:09:34 Venomcrawler
1:10:30 Chaos Vindicator
1:11:58 Warp Talons
1:14:00 Warp Smith
1:14:16 Traitor Guardsmen
1:16:00 Lucius The Eternal
1:16:27 Huron Blackheart
1:16:50 Master of Possessions
1:20:19 Outro
CSM wishlist:
- Let the MoP grant Possessed a +1 Strength Bonus, or even a +1 To Wound. There is so many S5 melee units in this list already, and these big, bulky models can easily be justified hitting a bit harder.
- Let Possessed get Dev Wounds when Charging instead of once per game.
- The regular Sorcerer should be a "luitenant" type option like the MeE, as there is no way he can fit even vaguely competitively otherwise.
- A bit cheaper Obliterators (even Liam thought so despite winning this weekend).
- D6+2, AP3 on Maulerfiend Fists/Defiler Claws.
- Cheaper Heldrake and Lord Discordant
- Cheaper Abaddon (or give him a bit of Feel No Pain so that he can actually lead from the front like the warrior king he is supposed to be)
- Some strat/detatchment rule adjustments to help make the detachments a bit more internally balanced. A few tweaks here and there could do a lot.
- Minor cost adjustments as mentioned otherweise.
and Oh yea, a reduction of cost for +5 Legionnaires, since the 5 man is so optimal for them when compared to the 10 man unit in terms of options etc. They're not like Plaguemarines etc after all. This should apply a bit more across the game in general where suitable naturally.
100% agree on all fronts, with one addition - Abaddon should auto generate CP. If Azrael can do it for 105 points then he should be able to as well
@@WontonDestruction I kind of see the point, except that I also fear it would make him less of the sort of "lead from the front type warrior king" as the lore describes him to be and instead incentivize you to keep him hidden in the backfield to just grant vehicles re-rolls. :-/
Thanks Quinton and Russell
the main problem of the dark apostle is that he is 3 model and cant really fit in a rhino
An issue yes. Maybe an option to make him a bit more tempting could be to make sacrificing his assistants have a bit more potential as well. Feels very aenimic compared to other Mortal Wound rules in the game...
@@runeh3022 cant wait in 6 months when he is going to be like 60 pts and i can take 3 brick of foot chosen with him, getting 2 ablative wound with a 4++ and +1 to wound.
he can lead accursed cultists and a min squad with an apostle can go in a rhino. Not sure why you'd do that, but I guess I'm Raiders or Cults he can get the scout enhancement and give the rhino scout too lol
@@UntestedGaming he can be amazing in cults from what I've understood, but considering he is actually a Chaos Marine, I just wish he was a bit more optimal in at least 6 of the other detachments. :-/
Only reason I don't run one, if I could not take the little guys he'd be in most lists
I've never felt the need to use the devastating wounds on my Forgefiend. He normally melts units like Terminators or Helblasters.
Welcome Russell! Thanks for the tier list boys.
Good job War Master
Chaos lord with jump pack sounds cute with 10 raptors taking 4 flamers in veterans of the long war. Free let the galaxy burn. Only use found- 24 flamer hits, maybe 4 wounds on the wrong target.
Since they bring up the Master of Possession having 8” move and being attached to Chosen, which have a 6” move, can someone please explain how moving a unit with different movement values work?
As I understand the rules, when you move a unit you technically move each model individually. So the MoP would move it’s 8” but the rest of the Chosen would still only move 6”? Or do you take the highest value and apply it to the whole unit, so since the Chosen would get the MoP’s 8” move?
Each model moves separately, so the MOP would be hanging on the edge of the unit 2 inches from your chosens. I tried a list based around that and the problem you run into is you make your charges but your chosen have to pile in something else because they are too far from your charge target.
I had a Solitaire blitz and charge my Cypher but I rolled 6 6's on my saves and he lived with 1 wound. It ended up being the pivotal point in the game, as it was near the center where his Avatar of Khaine was, and Cypher living until my turn meant any defensive strats for the Avatar were too expensive.
Lucoryphaus of the Bleeding Eyes was the Night Lord first on the walls
I love a unit of lascannon Havocs with Nurgle. I've had 7 shots in a turn and erased the big Primaris tank.
I wish Lucius could be thrown into a unit of Chosen. But it's also really funny overwatching with him and annihilating a squad of Warp Spiders or something.
@@TheCharlaton I think gw is just waiting for 2025 EC
Maybe put him in the new nemesis claw? They are basically knocking chosen
I came to watch Russell
I'd actually rank Noise Marines much higher and near Legionaires just for the fact they're actually a cheap shooting unit (and a mobile one at that) vs Legionaires being only good for melee. That they get Battleline with Lucius is a bonus.
I agree. NM are cheaper than Legionaries, but get more/better shots. When they get within 12 the champ can unload with the Doom Siren.
The Heldrake is way too expensive, but it's attacks do devastating wounds on a 2+ to units with the Fly keyword. That's 2 wounds each. He needs more attacks.
so many needless changes to CSM datasheets.
Why can venom crawlers only level up in melee now ?
Why did they change possessed to only have dev wounds once per game?
Why did oblits basically get hit with 4 nertfs at once ?
Feelsbadman.
Especially as Oblits and Possessed were not exactly showing up in the 'competitive' 'lists.
Both Vindicators and Forgefiends suffer from the problem of economies of scale, where they’re casino guns when there’s one of them and then actually deadly when there’s two to three. I would definitely say the Vindicator is better than the Forgefiend in this regard, however I don’t get the enjoyment of murdering my own tank with the Vindicator, so it ends up balancing out.
Out of curiosity, is plunging fire even still a rule? I've reread the core rules but somehow didn't find it.
Poor Abdomen. One of the only units to go *down* in toughness in 10th ed.
Yeah, it was a real gut punch 😂
Can someone explain why they say the hellbrute needs vehicles in the list with it? Nothing in the rules says it only affects vehicles? Also what do they mean when they say Fabius bile can blank 2 attacks cuz of the surgeon? The surgeon’s ability is to blank 1 and Fabius just gives toughness to the unit and he himself comes back on a 2+
Helbrute doesn’t “need” vehicles, but they are the best thing for him to buff so you want to build that way.
Fabius can “blank 2 saves” because he can blank 1, and then allocate a scary attack with lots of damage to his little surgeon friend to save a space marine body
@@ArtofWar40kbut how can I start allocate attacks to this little helper when the bodyguard unit is still alive? He is part of Fabius - the character unit. I thought first the Bodyguards must be removed before I am allowed to allocate attacks to the character??
What does acdc mean?
Accursed cultist / dark commune
The problem of Abaddon is his defense profile. He is just a dude in Terminator armor. And not even he has fight first?? Come on.
Compare it with the Lion. He brings so much more and before the Dataslate he costed the same. And the Lion has stats like a vehicle plus 3++ plus fight first. That’s ridiculous.
At least a FNP, Fight first, higher toughness or Lone Op would help Abaddon a lot.
But his defense is a bad joke.
Only for a buffing unit he is way too expensive.
Pretty sure the helbrute only gives you sustained and lethals on sixes, and then gives you whatever your mark gives you on fives
What part of the wording makes you say that?
No this gets debated on the csm groups all the time. The wording for pactbound is unmodified roll of 5+ is a crit, so any 5s and 6s crit. The hellbrute wording is when you select a bonus for dark pacts you get both. So both are on 5s
@@chaosclgoh really?? I always played in Pactbound that only the 5+ on the mark for one bonus and every 6 on top for the Hellbrute. When really every 5+ gets the double bonus that makes the Helbrute so much better in pactbound!
@@MiniMike_80 yeah thats not right, if a crit is 5 now why would one be on 5s and the other be on 6s? As per wording they're both on 5s, 10 possessed in range of abaddon and a helbrute is a great way to make friends 😂
Tbh csm is just too expensive as for now. Warp talons brick is 270 thats ridicoulus to the point that they need to kill unit of trash every turn but they cant bc game is too short.
I'd disagree a little that Chosen don't hit that hard, especially if you use the right strategems and/or characters.
In my last game, I had a brick of Chosen one-shot a Brutalis Dread sitting on an objective by using Ruinous Raid, and that was before my character or the two Chosen armed with Power Fists even fought. -3 AP is no joke.
You have to jump through a lot of hoops to make them work well though. Having the enemy unit on an objective, and the chosen in a transport at the beginning of the turn in the right position is only going to happen once or twice per game
Gotta agree. Chosen tear stuff up.
I love a unit of lascannon Havocs with Nurgle. I've had 7 shots in a turn and erased the big Primaris tank.