The funniest part about this to me is that it's pretty much evidence that the grappler gameplan is working. People whose gut response is that a grappler is OP and makes them panic/rage early on is like, literally the exact feeling they prey on. Get spooked and get cooked, that's the grappler classic.
Lmao yeah exactly who could have guessed just cause people dont like fighting a specific character archetype that would actually end up playing straight into there hands
@@drmoonrat940 It definitely works on me. I'm a super impatient rushdown moron, and I end up getting caught by the dumbest stuff because I refuse to play safe lmfao
@@megatenshi lmao just what grapples want you to think I'm losing because I'm not playing safe so I'll try play slower and block then boom the strike throw mixups start and boom they got you in the vortex
People are literally already bitching about Gief doing level 2 into level 1, then instantly pogging out about Cammy doing literally the same thing lmao
yeah in melee and other smash games where movement and mobility is everything. the big body/high damage/slow characters invariably sit at the bottom of the tier list. they just can't compete.
its more than mobility, its also that they tend to have big bodies, and these 3-4 hits are always a gamble that can get punished hard, more than often on reaction. but yeah, ofc mobility is important
@@WindraesaThe big body slow guys also don't have anything to compensate... with one exception. Falco runs like he's moving through mud. Luckily, Falco has laser, a tool that allows Falco to bring their opponent down to their level. Falco is a slow, terrible character that happens to have some of the best moves in the game
That's why KoF is more balanced in terms of grappling than any other fighting games. It's because you don't have just the classic,big,slow type pf grappler,but a variety of grapplers who can all do different things. A classic grappler would be Goro Daimon or Clark,needing to get close to deliver those huge damage command grabs. But you also have Vice,which is a grappler that can move fast,combo command grabs into punch/kick combos. Ramón,which have moves that can cause the oppobent to be confused on which direction he will move. Shermie which is a grappler that can be focused in countering reactions and can be really good against rushers. Kasumi/Geese/Seth which grapples as counter moves. Even non-grapplers have command grabs. Andy can do a vommand grab that can be chained into desperation moves. Athena is a zoner with a command grab. And so on.
Grapplers are like a big Boss fight in any other game. They're big, scary and can deal a lot of damage. But once you figure out their pattern, they fall pretty easily.
I actually had a friend who played grapplers specifically because of their ability to body people who were new at the game or the genre. To the surprise of nobody that guy turned out to be an asshole lol.
"They might not be broken, we might just be bad." Perfect. So many games, players call for nerfs and buffs day 1 of a new meta. My dudes, have you considered it may be a skill issue?
@@thechugg4372 That's honestly never the case. The tier list always ends up whit a quick guy on top and grapplers are at best mid tier, rarely they are the most op character, almost never. Its almost always an skill issue.
King is such an example. He has such amazing frames with his jabs, HUGE range in general and a million grabs and throws, even catching you mid air and such. litereally perfect.
And thats why even tho im a bruce/fakumram main (love my muay thai) i always go king (my alt) for the first few weeks of tekken. Droppin some knowledge bombs on my opponents lol. Ever get hatemail for pulling off a RDC or the whole mexicsn magma drive? It feels goooood
@@TheMrBlanky Cus pros break throws consistently like breathing air. You can play king without relying on throws like lil majin but it gets really hard when u have to compete with characters like feng wei or akuma. in low lvl play where people aren't as good at breaking throws king is a lot more effective, rdc ftw also I vaguely remember during lil majin's stream where he said that king is like the most well known matchup ever so people in high lvl play know how to play against him. dont quote me on that tho
From the perspective of a perma casual, grapplers are very annoying if you don't know the matchup properly - their higher stats means that matches against grapplers go for longer than normal AND they punish your mistakes ultra hard from your inefficient newbie play patterns. But as you said, we "might" just be bad lol, that's true wisdom.
When someone spends a bunch of time memorizing a piano recital of a combo, then they come up against a grappler that gets the same damage with a single move, they feel "cheated." That's why people see them as being overpowered or even "cheap." They also complain how everything a grappler does is just a 50/50 guess mix up, ignoring the fact that they themselves have just memorized a flow chart with a poke into a move that either leads to their recital or is plus on block so they can just try it again if it fails.
I usually main grapplers or those with gameplans that function in a similar capacity. Grapplers can be summed up in one phrase "Knowledge Check". They are "noob killers" and own early meta as everyone is still a noob. All the other points have some validity, but it really just boils down to how well the "non-grappler" knows the game. In the SF4 series, I mained Gief, and then because he had some super lopsided match ups, I learned those characters and their counters (like picking up Sim to deal with Sagat and Seth). It was VERY obvious when I was fighting someone who KNEW the game for real as opposed to someone just playing Ryu or who had watched some footage - my life became INFINITLY harder against a knowledgeable player.
I think the fact that grapplers continue being a nuisance against even top level players I think means that effectively counting them only as "knowledge checks and noob killers" isn't accurate. Top level players will agree that the grappler characters aren't good, but that their gameplans and kits are still incredibly difficult to deal with, even when you theoretically have a higher chance of winning. The return on your investment arguably goes down on grapplers the higher up you rise in ranks, but that's not the same as that return not being there. There are still players like FAB and Snake_eyez making Strive Pot work against very good players, and a lot of top SF5 players still find Gief frustrating to play against this late into the game's lifespan. In their own way they're still decently playable, they just have a lot more inherent risk, hard reads, and polarizing matchups tied to their playstyle instead of having like an 8-layer 4 way mix-up or consistent strike/throw stagger pressure where as soon as you're blocking you're losing. You haven't lost against a grappler until they command grab you, giving you more options for escape.
@@gwen9939 you're confusing someone being a master with a character or GOATed over all, with how good a character is. Snake Eyez made Gief work in SF4, but he had to WORK and be that much better - to make that happen. I hear "grapplers make you change your game plan", as if it breaks tiers or anything. Its down right LAZY when players think that, as if Grapplers don't have to learn how to deal with characters who turn a fighting game into a shooter or have invincible "get off me moves" that have to be baited, and after the "noob" period, grapplers take more risk than anyone to accomplish literally anything. You can ask my boys who mained Sagat in SF4 (I hated SF5 when it came out and never really came back) a grappler was typically free lunch...even in the heavy vortex days,
Yeah that’s pretty much for anything in fighting games beyond grapplers as well. knowledge is everything. tiers can be ignored, difference in execution can be less relevant, match up knowledge is one of the most crucial, important aspects of fighting games. most players don’t even know how much of a huge advantage someone has knowing the match up vs someone just knowing their character. throwing out buttons at the beginning to test the opponent and realizing they don’t know what’s safe, what’s punishable and don’t optimally use their space is a dead give away. put that on a grappler and the opponent is in for an agonizing time
Reminds me of all the tier lists putting Potemkin as the second best character in Strive during the first open beta. It really says something about Ram that she's consistently been considered at least top 3 in basically every tier list that has ever been made since the game's first beta, though. PS, I really appreciate the doom metal love. You have the best music taste in the entire FGC and no one can convince me otherwise.
Consistently in the west*. Japan doesn't have Ram as top tier and I don't think she ever was. They also don't have Pot as bottom 1 or even bottom 5. Along with her not being very popular as a tournament character I'm not sure it says that much about her. Even Bridget has overtaken her as a popular tournament character and she's the 2nd newest one. This isn't to say that Ram hasn't been incredibly strong, but I think the recent rekka nerfs did a lot more to put her in line than most are willing to admit. In comparison, Leo remains an uncontested menace who's much harder to defend against than simply strike/throw while having the privileges of much higher defense and being heavy weight making highest damage combos drop on him.
Makes me think of two questions: 1. Who are some grapplers that stayed top tier? Did their tech change? 2. How do you design a strong/top tier grappler who isn’t busted first months of release? Do you just assume the meta will catch up to them?
Well 1. Zangief in Alpha 3 was a top tier and still is, he got the big damage, his V-ism infinites are among some of the best in the game and he had the best jump-ins in the entire game with his J.HP ( as all grapplers should have ) 2. Uh, well, you don't, you never know if a character is overpowered until the game's release Conventional playtesting simply cannot determine if a character is busted or not For example, back when they were playtesting Street Fighter 2, apparently one player kept winning with Zangief so they did all sorts of nerfs to him like reducing damage, less HP, reducing SPD range Except that, he wasn't even THAT busted, nowadays we know that it's the shotos who're broken as hell I think what happened is that since nobody knew anything about fighting games fundamentals back then, they were just mashing buttons Meanwhile this guy with Zangief grabs you from half-stage away and gets big damage, oh plus it's unblockable so he must be OP AF right ? Fast forward to the release of SF2 hyper fighting, everyone's using Ryu and Ken, the really cheap players use Dhalsim and doesn't take a single hit, and Zangief players are foaming at their mouth because they can't get past the fireball spam or Dhalsim's limbs
Pot in GGXX was pretty good right? People talk about that being the strongest iteration of the character, and he had some pretty disgusting tools iirc.
@@PushyMeas44 Specifically, AC+ Pot. That Pot was EXTREMELY STUPID. 2S vacuums on block and hit (+R still got that but from Xrd onward, no more), Pot Bustour got an FRC point in order to extend the combo or he got it for free at the corner. Hammer Break after a mix up was ZERO ON BLOCK. Slide head OTG confirm into a massive combo with 5K. Air Pot Bustour has armor. Heat Knuckle (First part since in the old game, you have a choice between first or extend to second part) generate 25% regardless during combo or raw and LEAVE YOU RIGHT NEXT TO HIM FOR BS HAMMERFALL BREAK MIXUP. Giganter Kai got stupid unblockable loop with Slidehead and Heat Knuckle.
This reminds me of the "T.Hawk is top tier in ST" myth that spread in the US FGC, because the character has a throw loop OS that is inescapable for most of the cast. Problem is, setting it up in a game with incredibly strong defense like ST is very hard, on top of the character being very execution intensive. So this fabled "top tier" was used effectively at high level by like 5 godlike JP players and even then they rarely got tournament wins.
I've always liked the less polar/straightforward approach to grapplers SNK took, especially outside of KOF. They tend to usually do more to compensate for a character being big, somewhat slow, and having command grabs than "oh let's just make their command grab do a shit ton of damage lol". Real Bout 2 Krauser is a really good example since he's half grappler and half zoner, and it worked out considering he's a (slightly upper) mid tier with a very even matchup spread
Thing is there was one game where snk took the grappler approach more traditionally. Samurai shodown vsp hairs and kusa can deal quite a bit of damage with a single grab and a great deal of execution (for kusa)
@SNES nes Yeah I replied to a different comment talking about Gedo. I've actually been playing Samsho VSP for about 3 years and I play Gedo a lot. The thing with him is that even though he's a big grappler, he still has the SNK signature of having a varied toolkit that allows him to adapt a lot more (even if command grab is his main source of damage). Vomit coupled with his pokes gives him exceptional space control, he's really good at making sure you don't approach. Roll forward into command grab is also just really great for neutral too, especially for reacting to stuff in neutral like whiffed heavy slashes. Gaira's definitely the more traditional grappler though, he hits like a truck and has great mixups in exchange for subpar movement and capabilites in neutral. It doesn't get more grappler than that. Also, I'd honestly call both of them execution heavy, getting enough stick rotations for Gaira's max damage command grab is hard. I can get the justframe Gedo's unbuffered command grab at least semi-consistently, but I have never gotten Gaira's max damage command grab in an actual match. Maybe I'm just not good at churning butter though lol
I've thought about this a lot, but this can be extended to any straight-forward character. If a character is your basic shoto, has one very obviously good button or special, or in general is very starightforward: they'll be considered top tier at the beginning. They might still be good at the end, but I think it's important to pay attention to the context when looking at a tier lists. Month 1 tier lists are just a reflection of early state of the game, and tier lists can always be turned upside down by a single tech discovery.
It reminds me of all the people putting Tam Tam as top tier in the new Samsho on release, and as a Tam Tam main, I was thinking... "Yeah, my buttons are humongous... and easily parried, but nobody is doing parries in the first month of the game. 1 month later EVO 2019 happens, I'm sitting in the crowd watching Justin Wong's Tam get parried into oblivion by Kazunoko, and I said to myself, "welp, my days of winning 20 straight games online are over" and sure enough, everyone is sitting on my 5B like a baseball player sits on a 3-0 fastball, and I actually had to start working! Of course, all the post-EVO tier lists were like, "yeah, so Tam Tam very predictable..."
@@HappyRatKaiser Yeah the easier to predict stuff really just needs a pro showing how they space around them and suddenly you feel like a dumbass like "wait it can't be that easy?"
A lot of it is that even in characters with understandable simple gameplans like shotos, there's still a lot of theory-space that has to get sorted out "Whats a good meterless combo" "What should I even USE meter on?" "What are my best okies" so on so forth Grapplers by nature tend to refine all these questions down to "How do I get in" "What do I use once I'm there", with a third plate of "And now that they're terrified of standing near me after I took a round landing three pile drivers, whats my anti-air strike and grab?", the optimization game exists, but it is less significant because the baseline of success is much higher, and figuring out a single game winning grab can warp a match
Here's what I think about grapplers. I've been a grappler player since Hugo in SF3 Third Strike. One of the things that you will learn as a grappler is how to effectively block (or evade, or *insert escape from oncoming attack thing here*). You need to in order to wait for the opening you need if you want to get that 360 in there. Also, not a lot of peeps wanna play characters that do all those extremely complicated combos that put your hands to work. Some of us need our hands for our jobs (I'm a magician and balloon twister) so sometimes, a slower character who has a handful of combos and one big move that takes a TON of damage is great for me (I don't wanna speak for anyone else). I also find that if I then switch to another character who's not a grappler, but just as powerful, like Abigail from SFV for example, I get to do some combos, AND dish out the damage I'm used to giving out. And all that time I learned to effectively block with my grappler has paid off. This is all my opinion though. Anyone can correct me or elaborate on this. Take it easy. Great video!
Both of y'all hit the nail on the head! To add to this, I've tried to explain this concept to my friends: You memorizing long combos you have more chances to fail or drop it, where the one big grab gets the damage all at once and rewards me for knowing when to use it. This and because the moveset is smaller and very specific, it allows my brain to process quicker which moves to do at which time, so I can focus on responding without overthinking lol. My friends can't stand me with grapplers because I know the right response majority of the time and it forces them to slow down on the unga bunga crap🤣. One thing I tell people is instead of picking a character based on looks (looks don't win a fight!), Pick a character on how their moves feel to your hands. I made much less execution errors on grapplers, and once I pieced that together, the flood gates of fighting games opened!!!!
The first real fighting game I played was USF4 and I think it's interesting that all the grapplers in that game are mad annoying at low level, but the only one that stays good at high and top level is Gief (Abel too, but he's more of a hybrid guy than a pure grappler)
Hakan is actually really good too, but way freaking hard to play and of course, has the whole oil gimmick. But yeah, you're correct. Hawk and Hugo just fell apart. But in USFIV, I play all the grapplers and main Gief (still play the game) and although the typical match-ups are still super hard, I usually feel competitive. Not like in SFV. Getting slaughtered by G or Sakura or (insert most of the cast here) feels unwinnable. I'm really, really hoping we get some shine in SF6. God bless the KOF team for their grapplers.
@@ChoseDeath I watched mlswear play hakan towards the end of usf4's lifespan and it really opened my eyes on the potential of the char, but holy hell does he have to work hard
It's not just you especially if you're coming from various ArcSys fighters where they have a history of making what I like to call "highly interactive long range rushdown" characters.
@A2ZOMG oh no I started with netherrealm games. It's just one of those archetypes I've always found really boring and frustrating to fight because it feels like I just end up spending 60% of my playtime dodging their projectiles/ holding downback lol
That's the grappler's curse as well. A lot of the players that main these types of characters are never satisfied. When they lose, it's because their character is weak and gimmick reliant, when they win, it's because their opponent wasn't prepared for the match up. Grapplers will never feel like they're actually good at the game, winning or losing.
Because he goes against the whole point of the video. Traditional grapplers seem good at first but suck due to certain weaknesses that become more clear or developed. Zbroly and the system mechanics of DBFZ cut this out. He was, arguably still is, the best zoner in the game and can also get in super easily. He's an enigma in the grappling world.
You’re doing a public service by uploading this before the release of SF6 🙏 Now, whenever anybody complains about my day 3 Gief being overpowered, I’ll just link them this video. Maybe this time around the grappler won’t get nerfed into the ground…
Do wish there were more actual top tier grapplers... But I wonder if devs are aware of how strong they can be at the start and want to avoid making it worse.
while how much they care will depend on the dev, grapplers are one of those archetypes that the general public loves to hate regardless of how deserved it is. For a similar-ish comparison look how Injustice 1 kinda turned NRS games into a meme in online discourse because it dared to be a game where zoners were really good and even top tier instead of someone mashing out a dial-a-combo at the right time. That's not to say IJ1 doesn't have some problems, but nobody would've batted an eye if it wasn't a "cooler" archetype on top.
I thought he's was eventually going to say something along the lines of, "Even though they aren't that good, a bunch of babies are going to whine, and they'll nerf an already bad character."
I think there's an additional element when it comes to hating on grapplers... getting steamrolled by one just plain *feels worse* than getting juggled by a rush-down character or even barraged by a zoner. Watching your character get turned into a ragdoll as the enemy uses them like a prop while showing off their awesome, over-the-top command-grab just feels particularly *violating* - they aren't just beating you, they're *using* you, getting as far into your personal space as it's possible to be. (Well, ignoring some kind of possession-mechanic, anyway!) Mind, I'm not saying that any of that is justified - just that it's the kind of knee-jerk reaction that can help add fuel to the fires of hatred as people complain about them being overpowered.
Ain't no way Jiyuna and you uploaded a video with the SAME EXACT TOPIC with 2 different stances in the title lmao ALL WITHIN 30 MINUTES of each other too lmao
Good vid! Actually challenges some, often misguided beliefs of grapplers. I will say, however. Despite strive being out for years, and Pot being one of the worst characters... People are STILL, un-ironically, stating he's broken. It's not even the month 1 players anymore.
Z broly in DBFZ is legit the best of 2 Types in the game, zoner & grappler, he has BARELY been nerfed during the entire support era from the devs, and he’s still top 10, possibly even 5
Ahh, finally a simple to understand and informative video I can link to people whining about grapplers near to launch. They definitely won't put in the time to watch it or to understand it, but I sure can link it to them!
Thank you! Not that anyone is gonna listen to this, self-reflect, and take ownership of their poor performance against grapplers, but it was nice to see you make a generally positive video about the archetype anyway.
When I play against zangief in sf6 I have a lot of fun, because the combos don’t last 90 years, when I get grabbed because I was dumb I just laugh. Also like heavy characters are like bottom tier in like 99% of fighting games. Like, imagine if ganondorf is smash was decent, or zangief was good, but can’t have that
One thing I'll disagree with is saying grappler game plan is always grappling. It's not really in a number of fighters. More and more I'm seeing them have fully fleshed out non graplling movesets in addition to grapples. Which does seem unbalanced to me. Imo grapplers need to have more clear weaknesses to counter the advantage of grappling. Kind of like in real MMA where the best wrestlers aren't the best strikers. In games though, your standard responses of blocks and counters won't work when they can break blocks and need specific inputs with specific frame timing to get out of grabs. Playing Tekken 7 for instance I feel like I need a degree in engineering just to understand how to deal with King's grapple combos. Tradtionally grapplers tended to be slower or have less effective with non throws but that isn't the case as often anymore. So you basically can be beaten by either them spamming grapples or just doing other moves. You now have twice the things to worry about and one can completely invalidate the response to the other. And it can be quite aggravating when it feels like the rules are different in specific matches than most you play in. And yes you can make the game your job and learn to beat a specific character or play that character yourself but that really isn't fun for a lot of people.
I'm so old, I played SF1 and SF2 in the arcade when they were released. Back then, the language now used to talk about fighting games didn't exist. Basically nobody said the words "frames" or "neutral" or "plus/minus on hit" or anything like that. We just said "that guy is slow" or "that guy is cheap".. it was a more simple time. 🤣
There’s nothing scarier than the fear of the unknown. When a new game releases everyone is still trying to figure out their gameplans and frame data and grapplers get the most reward when they finally get in, usually needing like at least 3-4 command grabs (depends on game) to win the round and because of that and because people are still getting comfortable with the game they get scared which is a feeling grapplers love. They want you to panic jump, they want you to press a button thinking they can interrupt the command grab, they want you to panic raw super or burst to get out of the corner and that’s why they thrive when a new game is released.
Hmm... It's almost as if the "Nerf Grappler" community could reduce that "1st Month of Domination" by grapplers to only a week if they instead learned how to overcome them immediately instead of crying for nerfs for that first month, which may not come... Thus, eventually forcing them to have to learn how to overcome them anyways 😆
As much as I enjoy playing grapplers, I don't think any good fighting game should have a traditional grappler as a top tier. Traditional grapplers already force 50/50s once they get a kd. If they happen to be too good in a game then it becomes a coin flip game.
They aren't, but its a different style than most people can handel. No longer are you playing footsie, keep away or rushdown glass cannon. If they get it, your probably not getting away. If had freinds put down their controllers if you get in with a grappler. It's grab, grab and grab.
TLDW: grapplers are always strongest in new games because nobody has any matchup experience against them Edit: also they are really not affected by there own matchup inexperience as much as other characters
From how i see it, people dont like that a character can just easily punish bad neutral game and can profit off of a mistake more than a regular character. Considering grapplers usually lack important aspects of fighting games but are balanced in a way that they can take more of a beating and hit like a truck when they do get to cooking. Stop complaining about characters. Dont blame the character, blame yourself.
My 11 months old baby is a grappler and I'm as her father I'm a zoner, I'm trying to keep her away from grabbing things but she is a tank and with only one mindless thought of grabbing everything. No matter how many times I keep her out of range, she ends up grabbing everything... I hate grapplers 😂
Sometimes the grappler isn't even good at the game's launch and people still hate them, like Calamity Trigger Tager, who had almost no combos, no oki, a bad Drive gimmick (Magnetism ran out way faster in CT, and he has no reliable way to bring you to him). All he had was a lot of damage and people still wanted him nerfed
People just don't like grabs because of how fast they are, how much damage they do, and the fact that they're unblockable, even in most games where you can tech grabs pulling off a tech against grabs is more difficult than any other form of tech. However grabs almost always have horrible recovery, barely any active frames, and very short range, it's not easy to just spam grabs in most games, it takes some precision.
Never hesitate nor panic against grapplers that’s how you lose, I’m not into the grappler play style but I can say if you panic well just prepare to lose
R Mika was jack broken for a year, Abigail was jack broken for a long time, Laura litterally smashed a lot of players, the heck are we talking about here ?
Grapplers can range from oppressing space to being weird and doing nutty mix to a mixture of both, typically with an emphasis on punishing jumping. While I would argue that they normally are far from top tier given that they can be flowcharted by good zoners and even fellow rushdowns, the psychological damage they are capable of inflicting is a league of its own. God help you if the grappler you're facing has air-unblockables and anti-air grabs. 😆
Its not the sign of how bad the grapplers are with speed and body, its the sign of how ludicrous they punishes their opponents with train-wreak amount of damage while getting closed-up long enough
Grapplers are one of my favorite opponents to fight in every game, regardless of my character. It's *so much fun* working out how they fight, knowing that when im in their range the fight might be over. Except for R-Mika. I can't stand her.
Coining the term "early grappler syndrome" is James Chen's greatest contribution to fighting games.
Nah he also did the t7 clip
"Will it kill?" Yes, because you don't know where and when to press whatever button that stops the fake offense.
And OTG. And magic series. And everything else the legend has done.
@@Skkrachen didn't invent otg or magic series wut?
@@Skkrahose terms have existed since James Chen was 12 years old
The funniest part about this to me is that it's pretty much evidence that the grappler gameplan is working. People whose gut response is that a grappler is OP and makes them panic/rage early on is like, literally the exact feeling they prey on. Get spooked and get cooked, that's the grappler classic.
Lmao yeah exactly who could have guessed just cause people dont like fighting a specific character archetype that would actually end up playing straight into there hands
@@drmoonrat940 It definitely works on me. I'm a super impatient rushdown moron, and I end up getting caught by the dumbest stuff because I refuse to play safe lmfao
@@megatenshiand thus the gaslighting begins, they want you to play safe so the mixups begins.
@@megatenshi lmao just what grapples want you to think I'm losing because I'm not playing safe so I'll try play slower and block then boom the strike throw mixups start and boom they got you in the vortex
That what I like about grapplers you clearly know what to do most hardworking is outside the matches learning and adapting their defence against you.
"They might not be broken, we might just be bad."
90% FGC problems in a nutshell.
It's just boring and unfun to play against
@@mlgmcdonaldsland7063 You might just be bad.
Lame grappler players coping with the fact they ruin hella ga,es is wild
Yah we are all just bad all of us not you clowns all of usvkeep spaming the right button trash
@@MrGatonegroish hahaha
People are literally already bitching about Gief doing level 2 into level 1, then instantly pogging out about Cammy doing literally the same thing lmao
Despite almost having universal mechanics, people are still triggered as hell 😂
It’s cause waifu fighters have the loudest, most annoying voices usually LOL
Cause cammy is cool
@@lazguy6936but she has no loyal fans and will never have a body of iron
@@lazguy6936 bold move to not call zangief cool
Command Grab my attention baybee
🤼♂️
➡️↘️⬇️↙️⬅️➡️🅿️
_DAMN_
7 mins to tell everyone "grapplers arent good. you're just bad."
i love it
Crazy how important mobility is in fgs that a character that kills you in 3-4 unlockable moves can struggle lol
Some people doesn't get it how much movement mobility matters since i learn from Slam Masters 2.
yeah in melee and other smash games where movement and mobility is everything. the big body/high damage/slow characters invariably sit at the bottom of the tier list. they just can't compete.
its more than mobility, its also that they tend to have big bodies, and these 3-4 hits are always a gamble that can get punished hard, more than often on reaction. but yeah, ofc mobility is important
@@WindraesaThe big body slow guys also don't have anything to compensate... with one exception. Falco runs like he's moving through mud. Luckily, Falco has laser, a tool that allows Falco to bring their opponent down to their level. Falco is a slow, terrible character that happens to have some of the best moves in the game
Speed is king. I like my slow chunkers but I can't deny how important speed is in everything.
The title: Why grapplers are always top tier
The video: Why grapplers are top tier...for the first month
That's why KoF is more balanced in terms of grappling than any other fighting games.
It's because you don't have just the classic,big,slow type pf grappler,but a variety of grapplers who can all do different things.
A classic grappler would be Goro Daimon or Clark,needing to get close to deliver those huge damage command grabs.
But you also have Vice,which is a grappler that can move fast,combo command grabs into punch/kick combos.
Ramón,which have moves that can cause the oppobent to be confused on which direction he will move.
Shermie which is a grappler that can be focused in countering reactions and can be really good against rushers.
Kasumi/Geese/Seth which grapples as counter moves.
Even non-grapplers have command grabs.
Andy can do a vommand grab that can be chained into desperation moves.
Athena is a zoner with a command grab.
And so on.
Grapplers are like a big Boss fight in any other game. They're big, scary and can deal a lot of damage. But once you figure out their pattern, they fall pretty easily.
29 people thought this was profound
@@xxxViceroyxxx yeah it was a dumb comment on Darien's part but what do you expect from bad players lol
@@Pat315 is he wrong?
@@QwertYuiop-yt3uh Yup. He is wrong on this one, at least how he's phrased his point.
@@Pat315 100 likes vs 0 hmmm
I always refered to Gief as the "Noob Killer". High damage, counter intuitive moves make a hard match for someone who doesn't play much.
Its a shame that grapplers are only top tier when everyone else is ass and learning the game.
It takes patience....or the lack of 😅
Well, that's not *always* the case, but it's sadly way too common...
@@GM_Lemmy talking bout exceptions is worthless.
I actually had a friend who played grapplers specifically because of their ability to body people who were new at the game or the genre. To the surprise of nobody that guy turned out to be an asshole lol.
we can't really have it any other way, because no one likes it when grapplers are good lol
which is a shame to me because i really like the archetype
People hate grapplers because people hate losing to their own mistakes
It's like proving a Karen wrong
"They might not be broken, we might just be bad." Perfect. So many games, players call for nerfs and buffs day 1 of a new meta. My dudes, have you considered it may be a skill issue?
5 years later when said character is still broken
"Skill issue? 🤓"
This is why I also never take the first week tier list seriously. Just wait for a major and watch how it plays.
@@thechugg4372 That's honestly never the case. The tier list always ends up whit a quick guy on top and grapplers are at best mid tier, rarely they are the most op character, almost never.
Its almost always an skill issue.
King is such an example. He has such amazing frames with his jabs, HUGE range in general and a million grabs and throws, even catching you mid air and such. litereally perfect.
And thats why even tho im a bruce/fakumram main (love my muay thai) i always go king (my alt) for the first few weeks of tekken. Droppin some knowledge bombs on my opponents lol. Ever get hatemail for pulling off a RDC or the whole mexicsn magma drive? It feels goooood
@@psicho9217 God I miss Bruce.
But hes not top tier according to pros
@@TheMrBlanky Cus pros break throws consistently like breathing air. You can play king without relying on throws like lil majin but it gets really hard when u have to compete with characters like feng wei or akuma. in low lvl play where people aren't as good at breaking throws king is a lot more effective, rdc ftw
also I vaguely remember during lil majin's stream where he said that king is like the most well known matchup ever so people in high lvl play know how to play against him. dont quote me on that tho
Tell me you only read the video title without telling me you only read the video title
From the perspective of a perma casual, grapplers are very annoying if you don't know the matchup properly - their higher stats means that matches against grapplers go for longer than normal AND they punish your mistakes ultra hard from your inefficient newbie play patterns.
But as you said, we "might" just be bad lol, that's true wisdom.
Is this an April fool's video?
When someone spends a bunch of time memorizing a piano recital of a combo, then they come up against a grappler that gets the same damage with a single move, they feel "cheated." That's why people see them as being overpowered or even "cheap." They also complain how everything a grappler does is just a 50/50 guess mix up, ignoring the fact that they themselves have just memorized a flow chart with a poke into a move that either leads to their recital or is plus on block so they can just try it again if it fails.
Seems like these people never played a grappler. They should slap themselves each time they let a grappler come close enough to grab them
I usually main grapplers or those with gameplans that function in a similar capacity. Grapplers can be summed up in one phrase "Knowledge Check". They are "noob killers" and own early meta as everyone is still a noob. All the other points have some validity, but it really just boils down to how well the "non-grappler" knows the game. In the SF4 series, I mained Gief, and then because he had some super lopsided match ups, I learned those characters and their counters (like picking up Sim to deal with Sagat and Seth). It was VERY obvious when I was fighting someone who KNEW the game for real as opposed to someone just playing Ryu or who had watched some footage - my life became INFINITLY harder against a knowledgeable player.
I think the fact that grapplers continue being a nuisance against even top level players I think means that effectively counting them only as "knowledge checks and noob killers" isn't accurate. Top level players will agree that the grappler characters aren't good, but that their gameplans and kits are still incredibly difficult to deal with, even when you theoretically have a higher chance of winning. The return on your investment arguably goes down on grapplers the higher up you rise in ranks, but that's not the same as that return not being there. There are still players like FAB and Snake_eyez making Strive Pot work against very good players, and a lot of top SF5 players still find Gief frustrating to play against this late into the game's lifespan.
In their own way they're still decently playable, they just have a lot more inherent risk, hard reads, and polarizing matchups tied to their playstyle instead of having like an 8-layer 4 way mix-up or consistent strike/throw stagger pressure where as soon as you're blocking you're losing. You haven't lost against a grappler until they command grab you, giving you more options for escape.
@@gwen9939 you're confusing someone being a master with a character or GOATed over all, with how good a character is. Snake Eyez made Gief work in SF4, but he had to WORK and be that much better - to make that happen. I hear "grapplers make you change your game plan", as if it breaks tiers or anything. Its down right LAZY when players think that, as if Grapplers don't have to learn how to deal with characters who turn a fighting game into a shooter or have invincible "get off me moves" that have to be baited, and after the "noob" period, grapplers take more risk than anyone to accomplish literally anything. You can ask my boys who mained Sagat in SF4 (I hated SF5 when it came out and never really came back) a grappler was typically free lunch...even in the heavy vortex days,
Yeah that’s pretty much for anything in fighting games beyond grapplers as well.
knowledge is everything.
tiers can be ignored, difference in execution can be less relevant, match up knowledge is one of the most crucial, important aspects of fighting games.
most players don’t even know how much of a huge advantage someone has knowing the match up vs someone just knowing their character. throwing out buttons at the beginning to test the opponent and realizing they don’t know what’s safe, what’s punishable and don’t optimally use their space is a dead give away. put that on a grappler and the opponent is in for an agonizing time
@@BigWillTheMill sfiv gief is not a good example lol character was agreed upon to be like top 11
Kudos to you for maining a Grappler in SF, out of all FG's I've seen except Deadshot in Injustice 1, SF is consistently the CoD of FG's.
Reminds me of all the tier lists putting Potemkin as the second best character in Strive during the first open beta. It really says something about Ram that she's consistently been considered at least top 3 in basically every tier list that has ever been made since the game's first beta, though.
PS, I really appreciate the doom metal love. You have the best music taste in the entire FGC and no one can convince me otherwise.
Man, AC+ (not +R) POT was criminal.
@@zhaoyun255 i mean he was quite literally completely broken, so yeah, thats evil
@@zhmyh6599 And that Pot wasn't even the best character in that game. That would be AC+ Eddie and AC+ Testament.
Beta Pot was very good, they nerfed him hard in the day 1 version of the game.
Consistently in the west*.
Japan doesn't have Ram as top tier and I don't think she ever was. They also don't have Pot as bottom 1 or even bottom 5. Along with her not being very popular as a tournament character I'm not sure it says that much about her. Even Bridget has overtaken her as a popular tournament character and she's the 2nd newest one. This isn't to say that Ram hasn't been incredibly strong, but I think the recent rekka nerfs did a lot more to put her in line than most are willing to admit. In comparison, Leo remains an uncontested menace who's much harder to defend against than simply strike/throw while having the privileges of much higher defense and being heavy weight making highest damage combos drop on him.
Makes me think of two questions:
1. Who are some grapplers that stayed top tier? Did their tech change?
2. How do you design a strong/top tier grappler who isn’t busted first months of release? Do you just assume the meta will catch up to them?
Well
1. Zangief in Alpha 3 was a top tier and still is, he got the big damage, his V-ism infinites are among some of the best in the game and he had the best jump-ins in the entire game with his J.HP ( as all grapplers should have )
2. Uh, well, you don't, you never know if a character is overpowered until the game's release
Conventional playtesting simply cannot determine if a character is busted or not
For example, back when they were playtesting Street Fighter 2, apparently one player kept winning with Zangief so they did all sorts of nerfs to him like reducing damage, less HP, reducing SPD range
Except that, he wasn't even THAT busted, nowadays we know that it's the shotos who're broken as hell
I think what happened is that since nobody knew anything about fighting games fundamentals back then, they were just mashing buttons
Meanwhile this guy with Zangief grabs you from half-stage away and gets big damage, oh plus it's unblockable so he must be OP AF right ?
Fast forward to the release of SF2 hyper fighting, everyone's using Ryu and Ken, the really cheap players use Dhalsim and doesn't take a single hit, and Zangief players are foaming at their mouth because they can't get past the fireball spam or Dhalsim's limbs
Pot in GGXX was pretty good right? People talk about that being the strongest iteration of the character, and he had some pretty disgusting tools iirc.
@@PushyMeas44 Specifically, AC+ Pot. That Pot was EXTREMELY STUPID. 2S vacuums on block and hit (+R still got that but from Xrd onward, no more), Pot Bustour got an FRC point in order to extend the combo or he got it for free at the corner. Hammer Break after a mix up was ZERO ON BLOCK. Slide head OTG confirm into a massive combo with 5K. Air Pot Bustour has armor. Heat Knuckle (First part since in the old game, you have a choice between first or extend to second part) generate 25% regardless during combo or raw and LEAVE YOU RIGHT NEXT TO HIM FOR BS HAMMERFALL BREAK MIXUP. Giganter Kai got stupid unblockable loop with Slidehead and Heat Knuckle.
@@xxjojoxx-35 In USF4, Zangief and Abel both remained really powerful. Shermie in KOF XV is also still an amazing character to this day
@@zhaoyun255 He's not top tier, he's high tier, that game is a complete mess
This reminds me of the "T.Hawk is top tier in ST" myth that spread in the US FGC, because the character has a throw loop OS that is inescapable for most of the cast. Problem is, setting it up in a game with incredibly strong defense like ST is very hard, on top of the character being very execution intensive. So this fabled "top tier" was used effectively at high level by like 5 godlike JP players and even then they rarely got tournament wins.
SFV Zangief “Bruh, I wish I was top tier”
Is the community ready for the truth? :')
Tell me
I've always liked the less polar/straightforward approach to grapplers SNK took, especially outside of KOF. They tend to usually do more to compensate for a character being big, somewhat slow, and having command grabs than "oh let's just make their command grab do a shit ton of damage lol". Real Bout 2 Krauser is a really good example since he's half grappler and half zoner, and it worked out considering he's a (slightly upper) mid tier with a very even matchup spread
Thing is there was one game where snk took the grappler approach more traditionally. Samurai shodown vsp hairs and kusa can deal quite a bit of damage with a single grab and a great deal of execution (for kusa)
@SNES nes Yeah I replied to a different comment talking about Gedo. I've actually been playing Samsho VSP for about 3 years and I play Gedo a lot. The thing with him is that even though he's a big grappler, he still has the SNK signature of having a varied toolkit that allows him to adapt a lot more (even if command grab is his main source of damage). Vomit coupled with his pokes gives him exceptional space control, he's really good at making sure you don't approach. Roll forward into command grab is also just really great for neutral too, especially for reacting to stuff in neutral like whiffed heavy slashes. Gaira's definitely the more traditional grappler though, he hits like a truck and has great mixups in exchange for subpar movement and capabilites in neutral. It doesn't get more grappler than that.
Also, I'd honestly call both of them execution heavy, getting enough stick rotations for Gaira's max damage command grab is hard. I can get the justframe Gedo's unbuffered command grab at least semi-consistently, but I have never gotten Gaira's max damage command grab in an actual match. Maybe I'm just not good at churning butter though lol
"waiting to see who Tokido picks" I have never felt more called out in my whole life
I've thought about this a lot, but this can be extended to any straight-forward character. If a character is your basic shoto, has one very obviously good button or special, or in general is very starightforward: they'll be considered top tier at the beginning.
They might still be good at the end, but I think it's important to pay attention to the context when looking at a tier lists. Month 1 tier lists are just a reflection of early state of the game, and tier lists can always be turned upside down by a single tech discovery.
It reminds me of all the people putting Tam Tam as top tier in the new Samsho on release, and as a Tam Tam main, I was thinking... "Yeah, my buttons are humongous... and easily parried, but nobody is doing parries in the first month of the game.
1 month later EVO 2019 happens, I'm sitting in the crowd watching Justin Wong's Tam get parried into oblivion by Kazunoko, and I said to myself, "welp, my days of winning 20 straight games online are over" and sure enough, everyone is sitting on my 5B like a baseball player sits on a 3-0 fastball, and I actually had to start working! Of course, all the post-EVO tier lists were like, "yeah, so Tam Tam very predictable..."
@@HappyRatKaiser Yeah the easier to predict stuff really just needs a pro showing how they space around them and suddenly you feel like a dumbass like "wait it can't be that easy?"
A lot of it is that even in characters with understandable simple gameplans like shotos, there's still a lot of theory-space that has to get sorted out "Whats a good meterless combo" "What should I even USE meter on?" "What are my best okies" so on so forth
Grapplers by nature tend to refine all these questions down to "How do I get in" "What do I use once I'm there", with a third plate of "And now that they're terrified of standing near me after I took a round landing three pile drivers, whats my anti-air strike and grab?", the optimization game exists, but it is less significant because the baseline of success is much higher, and figuring out a single game winning grab can warp a match
I don't think this applies to shotos nearly as well as it does to grapplers
tierlists dont matter
honestly never really got the hate for grapplers, i know that i just need to work to keep them out and if i don't i'm taking the L
If only beta pot was never nerfed
Here's what I think about grapplers. I've been a grappler player since Hugo in SF3 Third Strike. One of the things that you will learn as a grappler is how to effectively block (or evade, or *insert escape from oncoming attack thing here*). You need to in order to wait for the opening you need if you want to get that 360 in there. Also, not a lot of peeps wanna play characters that do all those extremely complicated combos that put your hands to work. Some of us need our hands for our jobs (I'm a magician and balloon twister) so sometimes, a slower character who has a handful of combos and one big move that takes a TON of damage is great for me (I don't wanna speak for anyone else). I also find that if I then switch to another character who's not a grappler, but just as powerful, like Abigail from SFV for example, I get to do some combos, AND dish out the damage I'm used to giving out. And all that time I learned to effectively block with my grappler has paid off. This is all my opinion though. Anyone can correct me or elaborate on this. Take it easy. Great video!
Dude yes! I’m more comfortable with grapples because of the less need to be hitting buttons the whole time for long combos
Both of y'all hit the nail on the head! To add to this, I've tried to explain this concept to my friends: You memorizing long combos you have more chances to fail or drop it, where the one big grab gets the damage all at once and rewards me for knowing when to use it. This and because the moveset is smaller and very specific, it allows my brain to process quicker which moves to do at which time, so I can focus on responding without overthinking lol. My friends can't stand me with grapplers because I know the right response majority of the time and it forces them to slow down on the unga bunga crap🤣.
One thing I tell people is instead of picking a character based on looks (looks don't win a fight!), Pick a character on how their moves feel to your hands. I made much less execution errors on grapplers, and once I pieced that together, the flood gates of fighting games opened!!!!
Reminds me of how everyone thought king k rool was top tier in the beginning of smash ultimate
The first real fighting game I played was USF4 and I think it's interesting that all the grapplers in that game are mad annoying at low level, but the only one that stays good at high and top level is Gief (Abel too, but he's more of a hybrid guy than a pure grappler)
Hakan is actually really good too, but way freaking hard to play and of course, has the whole oil gimmick. But yeah, you're correct. Hawk and Hugo just fell apart. But in USFIV, I play all the grapplers and main Gief (still play the game) and although the typical match-ups are still super hard, I usually feel competitive. Not like in SFV. Getting slaughtered by G or Sakura or (insert most of the cast here) feels unwinnable. I'm really, really hoping we get some shine in SF6. God bless the KOF team for their grapplers.
@@ChoseDeath yeah, hugo has too many 2-8 matchups to be playable, KOF knows what's up, semi grapplers is the way!
@@ChoseDeath I watched mlswear play hakan towards the end of usf4's lifespan and it really opened my eyes on the potential of the char, but holy hell does he have to work hard
You guys remember Infiltration's Hakan? Also very good
@Mushamashi987654 Yes sir! KOF XV balances them perfectly!
All I want is for a grappler to be top tier
You got your wish, AC+ Potemkin and Z Broly. Z Broly is a bully though because not only he's the best grappler but also the best zoner as well. LOL
@@zhaoyun255 yes, now we need a timeline where T.Hawk is top tier and I'll be happy
@@Gamersgoinblind Can we have Kogi KOG back to SF, please? My man refuse to touch a SF ever again until his T.Hawk coming back.
wanna play aquapazza? or kof98?
@@StellaEFZ I love those games, the red haired girl with the rugal grab and Clark in the older KoF games are so much fun
grapplers may not be top tier in-game but they'll always be top-tier in my heart ♥♥♥
Z Broly and AC+ Pot say HI!!!
@@zhaoyun255 Z broly, the best zoner
Is it just me or are zoners 100x worse to fight than grapplers
It's not just you especially if you're coming from various ArcSys fighters where they have a history of making what I like to call "highly interactive long range rushdown" characters.
yes
@A2ZOMG oh no I started with netherrealm games. It's just one of those archetypes I've always found really boring and frustrating to fight because it feels like I just end up spending 60% of my playtime dodging their projectiles/ holding downback lol
Hakan is one of the strongest character in the game when oiled.
Grapplers are like that JRPG character that starts out super OP in your party but drops off after the start of the game
That's the grappler's curse as well. A lot of the players that main these types of characters are never satisfied. When they lose, it's because their character is weak and gimmick reliant, when they win, it's because their opponent wasn't prepared for the match up.
Grapplers will never feel like they're actually good at the game, winning or losing.
I'm amazed you managed to go a whole video aboit grapplers being top tier without mentioning Z Broly
Because he goes against the whole point of the video. Traditional grapplers seem good at first but suck due to certain weaknesses that become more clear or developed. Zbroly and the system mechanics of DBFZ cut this out. He was, arguably still is, the best zoner in the game and can also get in super easily. He's an enigma in the grappling world.
@@thestanman1486 yep
You’re doing a public service by uploading this before the release of SF6 🙏
Now, whenever anybody complains about my day 3 Gief being overpowered, I’ll just link them this video. Maybe this time around the grappler won’t get nerfed into the ground…
That won't stop them because they can't read.
@@THATotherGUY415 They sure didn't read the incoming grab.
Hopefully it'll be quicker. Like a day 2 nerf. That'd be great
@@manzanito3652 amazing response
Do wish there were more actual top tier grapplers... But I wonder if devs are aware of how strong they can be at the start and want to avoid making it worse.
while how much they care will depend on the dev, grapplers are one of those archetypes that the general public loves to hate regardless of how deserved it is.
For a similar-ish comparison look how Injustice 1 kinda turned NRS games into a meme in online discourse because it dared to be a game where zoners were really good and even top tier instead of someone mashing out a dial-a-combo at the right time. That's not to say IJ1 doesn't have some problems, but nobody would've batted an eye if it wasn't a "cooler" archetype on top.
This has to be the most comprehensive version of "cry about it, get better at the game" I've seen in a while and I love it
Moral of the story:
Be better lmao
"Why grapplers are always Top Tier"
Me: "playing Ring Of Destruction Slam Masters 2"
Yeah you right
I thought he's was eventually going to say something along the lines of, "Even though they aren't that good, a bunch of babies are going to whine, and they'll nerf an already bad character."
The 1st month of the game being meaningless in terms of meta is so true, remember how everyone said Nago was trash?
I think there's an additional element when it comes to hating on grapplers... getting steamrolled by one just plain *feels worse* than getting juggled by a rush-down character or even barraged by a zoner. Watching your character get turned into a ragdoll as the enemy uses them like a prop while showing off their awesome, over-the-top command-grab just feels particularly *violating* - they aren't just beating you, they're *using* you, getting as far into your personal space as it's possible to be. (Well, ignoring some kind of possession-mechanic, anyway!)
Mind, I'm not saying that any of that is justified - just that it's the kind of knee-jerk reaction that can help add fuel to the fires of hatred as people complain about them being overpowered.
Absolutely outstanding commentary as always dude. So good to have a balanced reflection on the archetype. Keep up the good work.
Ain't no way Jiyuna and you uploaded a video with the SAME EXACT TOPIC with 2 different stances in the title lmao
ALL WITHIN 30 MINUTES of each other too lmao
they may not be broken, but after one spinning piledriver hits, at least one of us will be broken...
As a kinda new player for me there are no broken moves yet just ones i dont know how to deal with
Good vid! Actually challenges some, often misguided beliefs of grapplers. I will say, however. Despite strive being out for years, and Pot being one of the worst characters... People are STILL, un-ironically, stating he's broken.
It's not even the month 1 players anymore.
I came from the future to say that Zangief and Manon are low tier in street fighter 6...
Seen as low tier by fighting game pros because they can not punk around like they would.
4:56. The points here during the area are valid for the weaknesses of grapplers.
Z broly: Hold my beer
Or, they might be broken.
Z broly in DBFZ is legit the best of 2 Types in the game, zoner & grappler, he has BARELY been nerfed during the entire support era from the devs, and he’s still top 10, possibly even 5
I play android 16 yo 😅
Every time I read about Z Broly's tier placement, MoldyBagel's videos come to my mind:
"THE BEST ZONER IN THE GAME IS A FUCKING GRAPPLER"
That drop kick to dodge the dive kick was *SIIIICK*
*YAAAAYYY GRAPPLER BOIS IN THE BUILDING!!!* 💪
because they do the funny grab move and take away 50% of your health
“How to make grapplers balanced: Get good.”
Unironcally yes
Ahh, finally a simple to understand and informative video I can link to people whining about grapplers near to launch.
They definitely won't put in the time to watch it or to understand it, but I sure can link it to them!
Thank you! Not that anyone is gonna listen to this, self-reflect, and take ownership of their poor performance against grapplers, but it was nice to see you make a generally positive video about the archetype anyway.
"Why Grapplers are Always Top Tier"? I don't remember that being talked, usually they are bottom-tier
He prob just worded it like that for fun lol, he mostly talks about it them being early top tier
I find one of the most important hurdles for fgc newbies is finding out how to play against grapplers/zoners
When I play against zangief in sf6 I have a lot of fun, because the combos don’t last 90 years, when I get grabbed because I was dumb I just laugh.
Also like heavy characters are like bottom tier in like 99% of fighting games.
Like, imagine if ganondorf is smash was decent, or zangief was good, but can’t have that
One thing I'll disagree with is saying grappler game plan is always grappling. It's not really in a number of fighters.
More and more I'm seeing them have fully fleshed out non graplling movesets in addition to grapples. Which does seem unbalanced to me.
Imo grapplers need to have more clear weaknesses to counter the advantage of grappling. Kind of like in real MMA where the best wrestlers aren't the best strikers.
In games though, your standard responses of blocks and counters won't work when they can break blocks and need specific inputs with specific frame timing to get out of grabs.
Playing Tekken 7 for instance I feel like I need a degree in engineering just to understand how to deal with King's grapple combos.
Tradtionally grapplers tended to be slower or have less effective with non throws but that isn't the case as often anymore.
So you basically can be beaten by either them spamming grapples or just doing other moves. You now have twice the things to worry about and one can completely invalidate the response to the other.
And it can be quite aggravating when it feels like the rules are different in specific matches than most you play in.
And yes you can make the game your job and learn to beat a specific character or play that character yourself but that really isn't fun for a lot of people.
I'm so old, I played SF1 and SF2 in the arcade when they were released. Back then, the language now used to talk about fighting games didn't exist. Basically nobody said the words "frames" or "neutral" or "plus/minus on hit" or anything like that. We just said "that guy is slow" or "that guy is cheap".. it was a more simple time. 🤣
There’s nothing scarier than the fear of the unknown. When a new game releases everyone is still trying to figure out their gameplans and frame data and grapplers get the most reward when they finally get in, usually needing like at least 3-4 command grabs (depends on game) to win the round and because of that and because people are still getting comfortable with the game they get scared which is a feeling grapplers love.
They want you to panic jump, they want you to press a button thinking they can interrupt the command grab, they want you to panic raw super or burst to get out of the corner and that’s why they thrive when a new game is released.
Hmm... It's almost as if the "Nerf Grappler" community could reduce that "1st Month of Domination" by grapplers to only a week if they instead learned how to overcome them immediately instead of crying for nerfs for that first month, which may not come...
Thus, eventually forcing them to have to learn how to overcome them anyways 😆
As much as I enjoy playing grapplers, I don't think any good fighting game should have a traditional grappler as a top tier. Traditional grapplers already force 50/50s once they get a kd. If they happen to be too good in a game then it becomes a coin flip game.
They aren't, but its a different style than most people can handel. No longer are you playing footsie, keep away or rushdown glass cannon. If they get it, your probably not getting away. If had freinds put down their controllers if you get in with a grappler. It's grab, grab and grab.
TLDW: grapplers are always strongest in new games because nobody has any matchup experience against them
Edit: also they are really not affected by there own matchup inexperience as much as other characters
From how i see it, people dont like that a character can just easily punish bad neutral game and can profit off of a mistake more than a regular character. Considering grapplers usually lack important aspects of fighting games but are balanced in a way that they can take more of a beating and hit like a truck when they do get to cooking. Stop complaining about characters. Dont blame the character, blame yourself.
Day 1 Rushdown mains crying about Grapplers. It would be funny if pretty much every FG wasn't centered around them.
My 11 months old baby is a grappler and I'm as her father I'm a zoner, I'm trying to keep her away from grabbing things but she is a tank and with only one mindless thought of grabbing everything. No matter how many times I keep her out of range, she ends up grabbing everything... I hate grapplers 😂
Won't somebody please think about potemkin
Naw bro. There is no team to blame here, gotta blame something, it's the broken characters, period. I'm never bad, it's always something else.
Guess what? 3 months into SF6 life span, the 3 grapplers are almost universally seen as bottom 3 lol the eternal circle of FGs 😂
Sometimes the grappler isn't even good at the game's launch and people still hate them, like Calamity Trigger Tager, who had almost no combos, no oki, a bad Drive gimmick (Magnetism ran out way faster in CT, and he has no reliable way to bring you to him). All he had was a lot of damage and people still wanted him nerfed
People just don't like grabs because of how fast they are, how much damage they do, and the fact that they're unblockable, even in most games where you can tech grabs pulling off a tech against grabs is more difficult than any other form of tech.
However grabs almost always have horrible recovery, barely any active frames, and very short range, it's not easy to just spam grabs in most games, it takes some precision.
Top or bottom tier I'll play the grapplers because I think it's funny to throw your opponent around instead throwing hands or weapons at them
that closing statement was so BASED!!!!! HATS OFF
Never hesitate nor panic against grapplers that’s how you lose, I’m not into the grappler play style but I can say if you panic well just prepare to lose
I don’t know why but I soon as I saw the title I thought to myself “this is rushdown propaganda”😂😂😂
"They might not be broken,
We might just be bad"
Perfect way to end a Vid on Grapplers
I really hope SF6 breaks the Grappler Cycle, cause what you've described here is nothing new, and I REALLY want grapplers to be viable in 6.
R Mika was jack broken for a year, Abigail was jack broken for a long time, Laura litterally smashed a lot of players, the heck are we talking about here ?
@@almiser are you stupid? The whole video is about how grapplers START busted, and then get nerfed over and over and over again.
@@BasicallyGoblin Grappler Cycle is a myth.
I LOVE GRAPPLERS, I LOVE CRUSHING MY FOE'S BONES AGAINST THE FLOOR FOR CATASTROPHIC DAMAGE!
TL;DW: Grapplers punish noobs, and when the game just came out everyone is a noob.
Grapplers can range from oppressing space to being weird and doing nutty mix to a mixture of both, typically with an emphasis on punishing jumping.
While I would argue that they normally are far from top tier given that they can be flowcharted by good zoners and even fellow rushdowns, the psychological damage they are capable of inflicting is a league of its own.
God help you if the grappler you're facing has air-unblockables and anti-air grabs. 😆
Its not the sign of how bad the grapplers are with speed and body, its the sign of how ludicrous they punishes their opponents with train-wreak amount of damage while getting closed-up long enough
“They might not be broken, we might just be bad.” Quote for the ages
Immortal As fuck quote frfr
In real life it's also true in early UFC grapplers would dominate
6:52 Good luck convincing anyone on the internet of that though.
Grapplers are one of my favorite opponents to fight in every game, regardless of my character. It's *so much fun* working out how they fight, knowing that when im in their range the fight might be over.
Except for R-Mika. I can't stand her.
Grapplers are the swimming levels of fighting games
Unfortunately SF6 devs are cowards
Grapplers are almost never considered top tier idk
What in the world did I see at the start?! That command grab did like 45% damage!!! 😮
This video is dedicated to CigarBob, Megaman X8, and Megaman X8's afro.
Babe wake up new theory fighter