The Perfect Impulse Response?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- Does the perfect impulse response exist? And do we REALLY want "raw" impulse responses of guitar cabinets, mix-ready IRs with all the processing done for us, or is it not quite as simple as either one? George Lever (Sleep Token, Loathe, Wovenwar) explains the way he thinks about it, and a few lessons he's learned...
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What are your favorite IRs? Do you prefer raw or mix-ready impulses?
Depends? If you just want to have fun and riff around then the mix-ready are nice. When doing projects having a more unprocessed sound gives you more flexibility perhaps?
Catharsis if you want old school heavy.
Im using the Bogren IRs and they are great for flicking through in context with the mix and finding what sits best! Although i do sometimes end up boosting the mids in some cases to make them sound a little more gnarly🤘
Mix ready to avoid falling into a rabbit's hole.
i talked to Mikko about this some time ago too because I had the same thoughts as you did. I haven't made up my mind - I mean it can still change - but for now I think it's makes more sense to use a raw impulse so I can shape it myself and this is also what Mikko told me he did them (as you also mentioned). II used his IR-thingie where you can move the mic around on a production recently and recorded an amp with a load box and got a really good result. I also find options scary and confusing. Great video! Thanks.
ya its good that producers are narrowing in on the good IR's out there because when you start diving in to this stuff it's option paralysis.
Great video George and it was awesome to chat about IRs with you. SOMETHING CRUCIAL to know about ML IRs is that I (Mikko) believe that no matter what instrument you're recording be it drums or guitar or vocals etc. it's a million times better to get the best source sound and use as little post-processing as possible. Fine tuning mic positions for hours is the "secret sauce" to why our IRs sound the way they do.
I don't agree that there's the kind of processing that always sounds good no matter what kind of mix the IR is being used in. Another thing to point out is that pretty much every IR comparison on TH-cam is a metal or modern rock demo and the more you process IRs the more mid-scooped the guitar tones usually get. Scooped guitars is more a metal thing but even our "artist roster" expands beyond metal to serious musicians who play genres from jazz, latin, pop etc. and want real tube amp warmth in their sound and in this use case that middle scoop and post-processing is not a good thing. But hey - these are opinions. :)
Beyond metal to 'serious' musicians...ouch
1 and 4 I think were the best. So🤘
@@smith42069 ... not as in metal musicians not being serious but as in there being a professional need beyond the metal genre. :)
@@smith42069 Lmao that's brutal
THIS! I absolutely hate the fact that 95% of all guitar related demos are metal and just leave out other genres and bass guitar... I STILL DONT KNOW WHICH IRS I NEED 😭😭
Hi, George! Interesting shootout, thanks for checking out our pack. Even on the same cab I have, an SM57 on a Mesa can sound anything from absolutely wonderful, to downright horrible. Like Mikko mentioned below, the what you do with the microphone has a huge impact and that's the fun part of it!
When making my IR's I did notice that I can shape the tone much easier before it is captured as an IR, so I try to do as much as I can in the analog domain. I don't find EQing an IR to be like EQing an actual cab, so if you start with a RAW capture and try to push it into a finished tone, you will have a harder time than with the real thing. Cheers - Jens.
Cheers Jens! Great work as per and appreciate you stopping by :) thanks dude.
Hi, Jens! I'm a big fan :D
Happy to see you doing your thing
I feel like 3 was my favourite out of all. Had alot of note separation, without being harsh or overly bright.
Nolly really knows his stuff. The dude owns over 80 v30 speakers
Same.
There’s just something about the ML sound lab IR’s that I like. I’ve tried them all and always go back to ML.
I’ve found their Zilla cabs are my favorites out of the ML Sound. I definitely like them better than Ownhammer
I feel the same. they sound perfect live straight to P. A, frfr, amp return, pc speaker, an old house stereo, a shoe, a pottato.... Anything.
1 & 3 in solo but 3 sounded better in the mix to my ears. I think it'd be nice to see the companies marking them out as processed and raw. That way, we consumers get twice as many options as even more so because you can plug&play or you can tweak to your taste! Great video as always!!
3 was my favorite both solo and mixed. Thanks for this vid, it really helped me understand IRs better and definitely saved me money in the future. Right now I use free IRs and it’s ridiculous trying to find the sound I want - and that scared me away from wanting to buy any. Now I know where I’ll get my first paid ones and I also know to reach out to companies and ask questions about this kind of thing. I commented on this video (first time TH-cam commenter, looong time user) because more people need to see this video.
That dunne was smoothest out of this phone speaker. 🤘
Thank you for this video, and I really mean it! I just started messing around with IRs and I couldn't understand why everyone was getting an amazing sound out of the box except me. I felt stupid asking questions about it because it looks like I'm the only noob in this field... Now I know what I need to look for :)
What do you prefer raw or processed
The 1-4 scale makes perfect sense when you explained which were raw and which were curated. My preference changed as well, solo #3 sounded better. In a mix #1 and #2 were great and #3 actually sounded the worst.
After a couple listens (without drums or bass), 3 is easily my favorite and seems to best the most ready to use/well-rounded tone tone--there are obviously some frequencies I'd cut straight away, but that's later in the process). #2 is actually my next favorite, mainly just based off of what I think I *could* do with it after a bit of tweaking. I paused the video though, so I'll see if I change my mind after hearing them in context
Edit: Yup, that checks out hahah
For my own stuff I play mostly in Drop A on my 7-string, so I use the Fortin Nameless Suite, and (depending on the song) will either just use the built-in Neural cab or GGD's CabZilla plugin to find a solid tone
3rd one soloed was my favourite right away, but once I've heard the 4th, I already knew it will sit in the mix perfectly, no matter the bass and drums levels. I also had a feeling the 4th is Bogren, as in the mix it had a very Soilworkish vibe. Great video, I should grab some Bogren Digital IRs real soon, if not to improve my tone, then definitely to speed up the workflow
Great video this, I've had the same conundrum before. I used to believe I prefer raw IR's with no colouration whatsoever, but in actual fact I've found that I prefer some of the free IR's from yesteryear. These were often raw in the sense that it was a mic capturing a cab and nothing else after it, but was done with a tube power section instead of solid state which most commercial IRs are made with. This seems to be a great middle ground for me because it sounds like a real cab but the fact it has a natural EQ profile baked in (as opposed to any physical EQ applied after it) makes it fairly mix ready too with minimal work. Much like a real mic'd cab I imagine.
Favorite soloed 1&3, favorite in the mix 4 !
This video was very interesting, because it showcase that what you find good on it's own might not work in a mix that well... Thanks a lot !
Personally I liked the second IR the most, solo and in context. I didn't feel like there was a massive difference between number two to four, but number one sounded really thin I think.
Excellent video man. Plugin suites, I believe, are defined by their IRs. No reviewer on TH-cam ever tests plugins with their built-in IRs. They always use their personal IRs and I hate that. Customers want to know what they'll like out of the box. I don't want to pay 200$ for a plugin and then shop for custom IRs.
Therefore, I feel IRs are overly under-discussed. And with this video you make people aware of how much they affect your tone.
Yes, 2 and 3 are the best.
I liked 1&3 soloed and 2&3 in the mix, although I feel like the fact that I use the Nolly plugin almost exclusively may have something to do with that
Good video! I just wanted to point one thing out though, you can't capture non-linearities like saturation with a impulse response. The only thing that would be captured is the change in the frequncy curve that the saturation would add. An IR is a static snapshot of something so it can't reproduce something like saturation. If you want to reproduce saturation you will have to use something like volterra kernels like Acustica Audio.
Of your IR choices, the Bogren sounded best in the mix to me while viewing on my Kindle. In solo, 2-4 sounded pretty similar, with only EQ appearing to alter. I guess I prefer something usable straight away. Perhaps that explains how I've never managed to get a sound I like from any acoustic guitar I've had ((generally sub-£200 models), and ended resorting to Session Guitarist for Kontakt.
There is another topic that I have not heard much, that is about pickup impedance and its compatibility with different impulses. Very interesting subject and can make a world of difference in your tones. Happy hunting!
Great chops by the way Mr Lever. Cheers from Costa Rica !
s-preshigh
s-preshigh, RHA AT-S-PH, and the Julep IR from the Telos Mini Free IR pack are the best impulses I've ever used
2/3 are free while the third is developed by the maker of s-preshigh (Ryan Harvey) but included in the TSE X50 plugin
was never a fan of the large collection of raw impulses you'd get from companies like Ownhammer, give me 6-12 curated IRs that sound bloody fantastic and mix ready. I see no value in paying for a collection of poor sounding impulses that require effort on my end just to sound barely useable when I could just use the stock IRs that come in my amp sims as they require the same effort
s-preshigh
@@Ghost17110 RHA AT-S-PH = s-preshigh hahaha
STL Putney Ascendants preset IR = S-preshigh
Hybrid Reverb in Ableton 11 is a pretty good impulse loader. Though I did not use an amp, just their over drive pedal, but it was an amp cabinet impulse, then pass signal to convolution Reverb Pro with real places room reverbs.
I'm still using old th-2 RESPIRE technology Overloud developed in its cabinets. To my ears it just sounds more dynamic, in-your-face and not as flat/static as IR's. You can listen to my tracks, it's just HP/LP filtering and limiter on a master. No saturation, exciters etc.
Is there a blog post somewhere that lists where different IRs sit on the Raw-Processed scale. That would be great info to have.
I still prefer the old Catharis IRs. Haven't really heard/used anything that sounds better since.
Same here. I have an Axe-Fx 3 and most IRs are fizzy as hell and lack good punch. I just use the on and off axis IRs Fredman style now.
@@gaukarmadhouse I've tried Ownhammer, Redwirez, Celestion, ML Sound and a host of others, but none of them can thump or grind like that old Catharsis pack can. Go figure. Maybe people just hear things differently today, but those 4 IRs that were demo'd in this vid all sounded flat and fizzy to me.
Late to the game but I'm with you where I switched a lot as well. Initially I like 2 & 3 for 'mid character' but that tone needs bite and depth. I'm with Mikko on this one. 1 sounds full and maaaaybe a little mid focused for this tone, but Bogren sounds a little more shrill for this cut. Good on Mikko. He got me into good IRs (and unfortunately that Soldano sound)
Shout out to HIL. Such a great band. I enjoyed 2 & 4 the most.
Great informative video, thanks. #2 was my pick.
George, this was exceptional thanks for doing it.
Very informative mate 👏🏼 I use the mendel ir and I love it 😻
Blind 2 seems to fit best into the mix. 4th was the brightest (but know I prefer a brighter tone).
Great video as usual George, thanks! Can you tell us what's your workflow when choosing an IR? Do you usually choose in the mix or in solo? I agree that it sounded way different in the mix. 1&3 was my favorite in solo, but 2 was really convincing in the mix! when you're full ITB, I think IR loaders are not the same too. What do you think about this and do you have favorites? Huge thanks!
I'll will have to check it out.
I dug the ML impulse responses the most in this example.
Good video, ir's and good cab sounds is a key element to a great unique tone.
I change my IR / tone quite a bit so don't have a pref. The Trve Cab Ir packs are nice though.
Listen with your ears and stop watching EQ curves and it'll be easier to find a good tone. And the right IR shouldn't need more than a low/hipass and maybe one notch if it's shrill or something. EQ surgery just castrates the tone and kind of defeats the point of a "good sounding" IR.
Good vid
Pretty sure IRs can't capture non-linearities such as saturation. My layman's understanding is that they're basically a really complex eq plus some time-domain stuff.
It comes down to what power amp and capture method you use. But you can imprint power amp colour / saturation / tone into an IR.
BreakingBorderline is correct. You will have a noticeable change of course if you try to capture non linearities. But you'll get errors that way. I wouldn't recommend it.
@@GeorgeLeverG1 Color, yes. Saturation/distortion/compression, no.
Non-linear IRs (effectively multi sampling for different input amplitudes) are a bugger to implement and I think sintifex still have them patented. It’s the same tech that the Focusrite Liquid Mix was based on.
GGD studio Zilla iRs .
Nothing else in opinion.
The best by far!!!
2 and 3 without the context, 2 and 4 for full mix.
York and ML are my favourites atm
Very interesting information. I'm a bedroom guitarist who uses IR and amp sim for practicing alongside backing track. I try ML sound lab IR both individual mic version and mixed version and can't find anything that sounds pleasing to my ear. Currently, my favorite IR is from York Audio. Based on information on your video, I may not like raw IR. York audio may be not as raw as ML since I prefer it over ML.
The biggest mistake is listening with your eyes. Ears people!
Huh. Solo I preferred 1 and 4 but then when you played it in the mix I preferred 2 and 3, which then got even weirder when you afterwards said that 1 and 4 are basically the furthest apart from each other. What's going on here?? 😄😄
Cool riff in the sound examples, except that one strummed out of key note. I personally liked IR 1 the best in both examples
For me number 1 was the best all around even solo and sits lovely in the mix. In number 4 I heard some annoying white noise like frequencies which was really unpleasant
Tone #3 sounded absolutely killer solo but I didn't like it with the mix as much. Tone #4 seemed the best in the mix (which is fortunate for me...since I just bought that IR pack!)
Totally surprised, 1 was the best to me with and without context, sounded like "proper/real" guitar to me. I assumed it would be heavily treated.
The weird thing about IRs as extreme as those for guitars is that they never sound perfect. Their sound changes along with the context.
I liked the 3rd impulse played alone, I heard a good potential in it, it had plenty of juice. But I didn't quite like the isolated second one, it sounded thin, like base of the tone is missing.
But turns out 2nd one nicely complements other instruments while having the most width. 3rd one is also good, but it's trying to fight for the place in the mix.
That might be thanks to emphasized 1.4 - 4.0 kHz range that the 2nd one has, nothing else except for the riff guitars take space there, that range boosts their presence. In isolation that might sound too screechy, imbalanced, but in the mix -- just perfect.
I just bought an Orange Crush 35rt. I recorded some impulses from the stock speaker which do work in a mix but sound very cheap compared to all my other Orange IRs. So I did some EQing and it helped alot.
Might be some OCD but when I record I more or less want to have the same sound that I get when I play with the amp alone.
I have a most of the ML IR's and I really like them but my go to has been the GGD Zilla cabs, I love the rawness of the ML stuff but some of them, especially the ANGR pack, sounds like the IR was captured in a tunnel. That might be use error and maybe Mikko can give me some pointers. The halloween 2 pack is amazing IMO. But again I keep reaching for the GGD zillas at this point. I have been learning mixing using the top down method and perhaps that is where my mistake is at, the Bogren IR's I have sound great in solo but they are terrible in my mixes and I think its due to that. I'm still trying to plow through as many of my NTM videos as I can. Thank you for this video
I think if you are doing top down. Jens tones would work best outside of that global eq. I agree there.
I'm here to listen to what the guy who produced I Let It In and It Took Everything has to say...
Is the riff during comparison is coming from a song ? Kinda really like it
And man Bogren is expensive for irs I'm really surprised you didn't put Justin York in there his irs are pheonomenal and the prices are great ! ML is also very overpriced
A little late to this party, but here goes. The first impulse was "In my opinion" the best sounding. And thank you for not spoiling the process. I must confess that I have spent much of my life as a recording engineer, so I am familiar with being able to tweak sounds to my liking. The raw sound is always the best. Good guitar...good amp...good mic...typically results in good sounds. Thanks for the video.
I’ve been making my own and really enjoying them live with my HX stomp. But I’ve been surprised at how different it can sound depending on so many variables. I’ve become more curious to what the big manufactures are doing in post if anything to the sound low cuts, high cuts, saturation, notching. The stomp allows low cutting and high cutting the ir but I’m not sure if something like the iridium allows the same tailoring. Great video by the way I’m with you on the way your feeling about the market for irs and what seems like lack of transparency.
Recently switched impulses on my bands mixes from a mesa cab with V30s/sm57 (came with my IR loader) to...another mesa cab with V30s/sm57.. but the second was a free giveaway IR done by Frank at @frightboxrecordings and though they are the same style cab, same speakers and mic, the free Frightbox one is without a doubt the best one I have EVER USED. The first one was pre eq'd to death, when I treated it to go in the mix it would just end up harsh and lack in the low mids, the free one is very natural and fills the mix better than anything I have ever used, even Catharsis and God's Cab, even the Nolly stuff (still good but imo the Frightbox one is better)
Loved the video and the He Is Legend nod💪💯
Frank ? Isn't his name Bobby ?
Props on the He Is Legend riff
Nice, George. I preffered No 3 the best, both in solo and in the mix. Personally my fave are GGD Zilla Cabs. Have you every tried these @George?
Ive used JST impulse but when i try to blend with other companies i get phase problems
What do you thin of shooting Its with the FX Return of your Tube Amp but removing the Power Amp Color by Deconvolving the Recorded Mic not with the raw sine sweep but with a direct signal from the Power Amp (Either With a Loadbox or a DI between your AMP and cab): Mikko from ML Sound Labs claims that only if a Tube Amp drives the Cab it will sound "proper"
Would that work and could a sine sweep harm the Tube Amp? (Of Course being cautious with single levels)
I'm more of an edm guy but I love metal and I didn't even know what an impulse response was. Seems like it cuts short a lot of fiddling
I prefer to have both tbh but definitely am missing true RAW IR's! Everything has to be pre eq'd and pre processed from these company's which is cool but it's also really annoying. Like ... lol release the real mic'd impulses too ya know!? I want to be able to engineer my own tone sometimes rather than just having to deal with someone else's work, albeit sometimes great work but you get the point.
Liked 3 overall. Sounded good solo’d and in the mix. 4 was ok in the mix, but a little weak.
What guitar is that? Great video btw, I always wondered about this stuff. EDIT: Wirebird tele
Cool video ! Do you find there is a difference between using the same IR in your Suhr and in a virtual IR loader on your computer ?
Ever used york audio?
I liked 2 best both in solo and in the mix
Wait, is that riff played underneath the main guitar in "Sand" ? Or where is it from? Thanks.
I like 3 sound at first. Harder to notice with drums
Thanks
The thumbs up does nothing for the algorithm
what camera/lens you use for this video?
Sony A7iii or a7siii and a Zeiss 35mm f1.4
I've been going through the same journey myself the last couple of weeks and I discovered that the same goes for ampsims as well, there are certain IRs that sound full with one sim and hollow/fizzy with another. This other ampsim may sound good with a darker IR. So this turns into a vicious cycle.
Anyways 2 and 3 were my favorites both in solo and in the mix but the mix ready example in the beginning was really stunning. Was that the same setup as 4?
Mix ready at the beginning is my settings on the raw IR that comes after it. Sorry for not making that clear.
This u use york audio
go with raw. The mixed IR may not go with the music as he said here. you'll end up mixing it or wasting time choosing a pre mixed IR and wasting more time
I found the DV77 is pretty great, better than most v30s most time
Hey George, is your preference IR’s or do you ever mic up a cab as well?
I’ll reamp with a cab when possible but that isn’t very often these days. So typically it’s load box and IR which is why this is pretty important to me.
I didn't know Marc Wahlberg is also a producer
Can you bake time related stuff into an IR? Like... compression? No I don’t think so ...but I don’t finally get what they really are... IRs are not just like a very fine EQ with infinite amount of bands that’s for sure... or are they? ...should I think of it like being a very very very short reverb? Because you can get IRs for reverbs also right? Man I am no noob but it’s hard to find qualified information about it...
treat it like a optic filter, sunglasses effect if you will. From infinite amount of harmonics, generated by amp it let through only a dozen, some are pleasant, some are not
Listening on AirPods so already coming from a fucked perspective but I liked 1 solo and 2 in the mix.
1. 5:50
2. 6:03
3. 6:16
4. 6:29
The Perfect Impulse Response?
Like Best IR in the world? I don`t think someone would claim it, oh wait
I want to desperately change the IR in my main preset, but I simply cannot find something that trumps the Best IR in the World!
@@saarangnarayan123 funny I didn`t find any usage for it, just average impulse
Impulse 3 WINS!!!
Valhallir makes the most realistic sounding impulses, everything else sounds digital to me.
What drums (live/samples) did you use in the demo?
They’re from my drum library I’m currently developing :)
@@GeorgeLeverG1 yeah boy!)
Mix-ready IRs are good if you become used to them. For those of us that play with real cabs all the time, it is kind of disappointing to listen to a mix-ready IR.
Yo make the title not a question, Im curious if it would do better
Which Bogren IR did you use in this??
Its called Fart Me Down 1 from his latest pack release.
Your hair style is perfect. it’s really distracting.
Bogren digital, ggd zilla and ML sound labs are the 3 best
Imo
GuitarHacks!!
George Jonas
None of those. I absolutely do not like ir’s at all. Real speaker and microphone is much easier and quicker.
3 Sigma Audio makes the Best IR's!
I don't understand how guitar players using all software can stand the fizz. My Kemper sounds leaps and bounds better than any software out there. I've tried em all. Truth is as this point in tech, computers can not emulate good distortion. This generation doesn't know what good guitar tone sounds like.
not to mention u couldnt line up basic loops to be in time
Why don’t you get a job with urm and show us how it’s done then 🤔
theres a really bad dead, off note in that riff. how the fuck did u not realize. u may try to speak like nolly, but u aint nolly.
I don’t think he’s trying to speak like Nolly, I mean he IS from the Uk.....