Beautifully put. Totally agree. I used closed spray foam directly on to the panels (2 years ago) and so far no problems. No vapour barrier fitted. I’ve designed most of my wall panels to have plenty of ventilation, especially at the bottom, and they are all easily removed. Keep the van warm and ventilated when in use, and a dehumidifier in winter if possible
Winter & Condensation. I was building my van in winter with a frost outside. Within 20 minutes of being inside, my van was like a rainforest, the condensation was just so very high. Time will tell whether you are correct, but after seeing my windscreen on the first winters morning of an overnight stay it really hit home the levels of condensation these vans suffer. I didn’t use a vapour barrier as such, I used high density foam wherever possible, diall insulation only in the difficult areas and sealed every hole I could find with aluminium tape. It doesn’t need to be air tight in my opinion, but you must stop the internal temperature meeting the external surface temperature.
Thank you for your detailed comment. hopefully the comments from the community will help others to decide if vapour barriers are right for them or not. regards.
I learned from a professional that sealing off every little hole is actually NOT a good idea. You need to leave a few holes so that moisture and air can flow and doesnt get trapped. Im not the expert but he claims thats one of the biggest mistakes he sees on DIY builds next to using reflectix without an air gap.
Same. Had all the doors open and the roof was dripping after 20mins today. -3 outside but no heating in the van. The roof has a layer of thermoliner on it already but the foil is cold and frozen under the patches of recycled bottle. I'm kind of reluctant to use a vapour barrier because I don't like the idea of trapping moisture in. Contemplating putting a layer of stretch carpet over the foil side just to take away that cold point. I have done a few test patches today. I guess if there was heating in the van, the moisture would quickly dissipate through open windows. The roof seems to be where the moisture is collecting most. I like the thought of that moisture being burnt off quickly with heat but afraid it'd just stay there with a moisture barrier
Very valid points raised you have clearly thought long and hard on the subject nice to see you're not one of the sheep, haven't started my insulation yet you've given me a lot of food for thought 😰 hope everything goes well, crack on👍
You are right. I've just bought an ex-Ambulance Service Command and Control vehicle to convert. All insulated etc, but no vapour barrier installed. It's 19 years old and the only bit of rust or rot was from a small leak in the back garage compartment where the extending NightScan lighting system was installed.
We came to the same decision to not put in a vapour barrier. We were on the fence for a while but the more we thought and researched about it, and worked in the van, the more we swayed against it. Like you still open minded and will keep some areas accessible to allow us to check every now and then how everything's looking, and chose hydrophobic insulation materials. We're going with the approach of dry heat and air flow to combat moisture and the assumption that warm air will inevitably come into contact with cold surfaces and condense. We've experienced water collect in one of the pillars through a small leak in the roof, and then seeing all the holes throughout, even the ends of the wire conduit and things like that. Tricky decision to make though as there are so many variables and you need time to tell if you have a problem or not. So we'll see! 🙂 Good luck with the rest of the build!
I had some deadlocks fitted to my VW Crafter a few months ago. I mentioned I intended to do a camper conversion. One thing the fitter said was don't use expanding or non-expanding foam insulation. He said they often find pools of condensed water in areas where the foam hasn't filled. Makes sense to me. I would though use a mildly expanding foam in areas like inside the roof bars and other areas difficult to reach. I would make sure the foam has completely filled the cavity though. This is purely for the small ribs that strengthen the bodywork. I would recommend using a proper gun and choosing your foam carefully. There are different expansion rates etc. I would use the closed foam adhesive on the panels themselves over the sound deadening material like this video shows. As for a complete vapor barrier over the whole lot I personally think it would be beneficial.
Well argued case for omitting a vapour barrier. A good layer of closed-cell foam against the van metal should prevent a good portion of condensation which together with ventilation of the other insulation plus good drainage will provide a very workable solution. These features are easier to achieve for the majority of builders than a vapour barrier which, as you point out, really does have to be near perfect to get the desired effect.
I'm starting my third build and have never fitted a VB as in my mind airflow will keep the inner walls dry and fresh and remove mosture in the same way as the air bricks in older houses. Never had a damp problem in the previous two. Will now check your earlier videos as it's my first Relay.
In one of the van conversion videos I watched, they were extremely thorough with vapour barrier and planning everything to minute details, yet still had external water leaks and other problems, so an external water leak is behind the barrier, then possibly trapped, I have gone for a hybrid approach, so I have access still. And like others have said if you ventilate the van and heat sensibly you should move moisture through
Thanks for the great comment. the fact that sells it most for me is this, the vast majority of 'respected' van builders, the ones that do it for a living like Humble Road to name just one, along with pretty much all the coach builders like Hymer, Adria, Autosleeper, Rollerteam etc etc, none of them install vapour barriers. now the pessimist will say they are just saving money, but if was really a problem and customers were complaining in large quantities about mould and damp etc, and on the basis for them it is probably no more than a few hours additional work with minimal extra expenses, would they not just do it for belt and braces?? they dont, why? it is just not required.... thanks for watching.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 I like your videos and the way you present them. Like you said in one of your videos, people feel obliged to try and fit a vapour barrier as youtube has them thinking the build will be compromised without one, this is how I started out thinking, then the more I watched the more I used my own judgment as to what I should do. My take is that if you can't fit a 100% vapour barrier & room ventilation then don't do it and like you mentioned it is pretty much impossible in a vehicle, the other thing I dont see anyone mentioning is if you open the cab area to the living area (windscreen and door windows aside) is anyone putting insulation in the front doors ?, anyway keep up the good work.
Another thing to consider is the airflow from the cab heater, where the air gets in is obvious, the grille below the windscreen, but where does it get back out? On some vehicles there's an obvious vent at the back but that's by no means universal, my guess is that the manufacturer intends there to be an airflow through the walls & out the weep vents in the sills & various holes they've left around the underside.
That is 100% correct. Every vehicle has an exit for air. Most vans have grommets under the rear lights below the bumper, if you look you can usually spot them, cars have the same but exit ports vary.
2 years ago we converted a brand new Iveco Daily L4H3 which we now live in. That wasn't the plan originally but after two 90 day trips to Europe we hated being in a house. We stop warm air from touching cold metal by sticking foil bubble wrap to every inch of metal on the inside. We then insulated it with wool. 2 years on, a season sking in the alps and 2 summers in 30 degrees plus and we would recommend that method to anyone. We have no damp and the only condensation we get is on the windows of the cab.
A Webssto or truma heater running at night needs the maxxfan opened slightly no matter how cold it is outside. Living in a van and allowing the heat to rise and escape slowly will make sure moisture escapes. Air conditioning while driving for 2hrs a week will remove any remaining moisture. Vapour barriers are more trouble than they’re worth.
Good reasoning here in my mind. I think that good ventilation is the key and not a vapour barrier. I compare it to loft insulation that we had installed at home a few years ago where the installers covered the soffit vents and the roof sweated badly with water vapour soaking into the roof trusses. There was nowhere for the vapour to go. Luckily we found out in time, uncovered the vents and installed more to be sure and no issues since so I don’t think I will be installing a vapour barrier but will be making sure there is adequate ventilation just as there is in a caravan.
Great video . Ive been building most of my life and usually have been isulating wall and ceiling areas with some sort of air flow. I was also comtemplating using the súper quilt ( or space blanket as a lot of people refer to it )which I believe has the best insulating propertys available? and your video has sold it to me . Thank you sir 🙏
Agree 100% with every word, I am sure you are doing the right thing. Over the past year I must have viewed just about every van conversion video several times, and at last someone has put out a video addressing all the concerns that I have had. Brilliant. Thank you so much. By the way, if you examine the "professional" conversions or talk to any conversion company, I don't think you will find any vapour barriers being used. As in any inside space, good ventilation is the key. Now, where I have I heard that?
Thanks Peter. Last time I went to a campervan shop I had a dig around in a Hymer, an Adria and a Autosleeper and yep, no vapour barriers to be seen in any of them! is this a money saver or just not needed? interesting isn't it. My theory is going to be have good ventilation through the maxxfans at all times to mitigate against the humidity build up.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 it would be interesting to go to one of the big shows & ask a company technician, maybe over a cup of tea so you can talk it through thoroughly.
artic units basically had no insulation years ago, just a gap from trim to metal, crack a window open all was good seal it up and condensation was bad in winter, nightheater was dry air so wasnt a problem.
Thanks for the video. I can’t find in detail how you did actually insulate the van; for example I’m using PIR board but won’t have a decent gap; I agree with your theory in principle but think it would need a cavity gap - for example in houses PIR board is installed with spacers. I’ve started with the foil taped PIR board method and have quickly realised it won’t be perfect despite best intentions so now feel stuck!
I went for 7mm closed cell foam stuck straight to the van metal and then 100mm recycled bottle insulation. that's it! the 'decorative' layer does not really have any insulation properties so I dont count that (solway panels) but it does continue the mitigation against moisture as it is a solid plastic layer across at least some of the covering. 2 years on from the build I dont have any condensation or damp issues but I am pro-active about it. for example at this time of the year being November/December (the worst time for damp in vans in the UK) I have the van plugged to shore power on my drive and I run a small 500W fan heater overnight on a timer to help mitigate any issues before they arise and recommend others do the same. yes it costs around £30 a month for 5 hours a night over the course of a couple of months but for me, money well spent.
Thanks so much for the reply, it’s really helpful. I’ve decided (and started) putting PIr insulation on first but with spacers to create a small cavity between outer wall and then topping with recycled wool. Will have ply walls unlike your plastic althoigh one option is two layers of an oil based paint which is apparently not permeable althoigh that may defeat the purpose and I might deliberately use an acrylic so there is air flow. (Still undecided). Had a similar plan with heater - spoke to a friend who is a commercial damp specialist and he recommended a tube heater. This will be my second vehicle though and get use throughout winter so although that means more condensation from breath etc it will hopefully also mean it gets more warmth and ventilation from just being used.
I have used a vapour barrier, didn’t find it a problem to seal it up effectively using foil tape, better to keep the moist air away from cold metal, especially with our high humidity levels here in the UK. I personally don’t believe a van could be ventilated sufficiently during the cold damp months to dry out any moisture that gets in to the wall space if there was no vapour barrier installed. Greg Virgo has an interesting video on the effectiveness of a vapour barrier on his channel.
Thanks for the comment and your experience. I tried to replicate Greg's ice bucket experiment last summer with a chilled bottle of beer, it did not work as I ran out of liquid quite quickly and after several attempts found myself less and less worried about the results :-)
I also have a L4H3 and been trying to work out a solution for having a rear passenger bench, two underslung CAK tanks, an underslung LPG tank, while also having a shower room with a fitted toilet. It seems this all may be possible after all from seeing your build.
thanks for the comment, yes all is possible. on van number two the major change i would make is a smaller shower room as we use the shower for 'emergencies' only.
3:30 The important thing in insulation is the R value of the material. Generally 3R is ideal. In the image of the material you use, the R value appears to be 2.25. It looks quite suitable. I do not know how the cost of mineral wool price in your country
Hey, thanks for your thoughts! Two years are gone now. Would you be so kind to do a follow-up video? Would like to know, you had any mold in your PET=insulation.
I noticed a professional van builder not using a vapor barrier not long ago so I asked him why? He said most professional builders won't fit one due to issues later on in the vans life
Why do old camper vans smell like old camper vans? 😅😅😅 I think you asked the million dollar question, and gave a million dollar explination. Well done!
Building an L4H3 Ducato down in Oz that will travel between hot dry air and hot wet air and like you reasoned out that breathability and ventilation are the key. Trying to keep water, and as you say - air, out of the intra impermeable barrier areas created by a vapour barrier would require an intensity and OCD like level of concentration beyond most of us. Many people have seen the vids and slapped the tin foil and bubblewrap staff everywhere, only time will tell. The positive aspect is that they are adventurers who have got off their backsides and had a go, kudos for that. Thanks for the great series and sharing your thoughts and ideas. God save the Queen.
Great subject, combating condensation in a van where people live full-time is a difficult subject to come to a conclusion about, .......on the whole I personally don`t believe in vapour barriers (except perhaps a dedicated shower area or flooring) because they create moisture traps behind many hidden areas (unless they are totally sealed everywhere), but I do believe in good loose insulation on top of or with what you have used (closed cell foam directly on the metal) and air gaps with good airflow & vent grids (even behind panelling) + heating to create a even ambient temperature inside a campervan (even in cold climates) - water will only pool if its got nowhere to go or drain = fugal growth (smells etc). Also i think people are too scared to not use a vapour barrier because they are concerned that their vans will rust from the inside, so is it possible to use a tanking solution (like they use in wetrooms in houses) to combat this on metal directly?
Hey, nice work! I've been watching your build for a bit now, and stealing ideas for myself ;) Question about the multifoil, how much of that stuff have you used for your ceiling and how have you attached it? Thanks
used about 1/2 of the roll only. planning to put some up in the over cab shelf behind the lining and will no doubt find some other uses for it, it is very light so will stuff it all in somewhere. please see the ceiling build video for the installation of it. thanks.
Hi, just a quick question also about the multifoil insulation that you used on the roof. I'm converting a Mercedes Vito which is a small van, I'm thinking of using the multifoil on the sides and doors also, as it's much slimmer than say diall, 40mm vs 100mm, this might leave some room storage pockets. I guess my question is would you think its suitable for these areas also? I was thinking of using light batons between the installation and the wall for air. I am also going with no vb. Hope I've explained myself here, my first build, thanks for the videos 👍
@@jayvanday7402 Vitos are known for rusting so it definitely needs ventilation in the panels but also, as much as possible, keep moisture out of the structure.
Hmm, interesting. So do most peoples vapour barriers just act as another insulation source then 🤔 What about if you run the air con whenever you're driving won't that dry it out enough. Great vid, 👍
Hi there . Thank you for posting this video. Please can I ask you what you finished off the ceiling and in ? Looks like finished hard board. And what panelling is on the walls? Thanks
I think you should just buy a submarine mate 😂 might be easier keeping the water out!ha … on a serious note, I’d be really interested to see an experiment of 2 vans, one with a barrier and one without and see if any differences after a few years.
I think that experiment would be interesting, and can be seen now anywhere in the country. go to your local motorhome store and look at a 2 or 3 year old hymer or adria or similar and slide your hand in somewhere to feel the insulation....
So it's a year on and bearing in mind your low usage as you explained, what's the condition of your insulation now, doing things like this helps analyse and perfect
thanks for the great question. we have done best part of 18k miles over the last year around UK, France and Spain. i can honestly say we have had no condensation issues whatsoever, i have checked the insulation regularly as I can get my hand in behind the panel in one spot (left deliberately accessible) we do have a temp and humidity monitor in the van and when the humidity level goes up we crack a window or open the fan etc and uit ten drops back down. there was one day at home last Autumn when some slight condensation formed on the cupboard doors but after ventilating it went very quickly. it was one of those horrible damp, grey wet days of November. very happy with my choice overall. hope that helps.
I am considering putting a one inch gap between the exterior walls and the interior walls without a vapor barrier. Inside this gap, I want to circulate dehymidified air and drain the water outside the vehicle. What do you think about this idea?
Thanks for the great question, it is indeed all about the air gap and good air flow to prevent condensation build up. I dont have experience of dehumidifiers suitable for 12v operation so cant really comment on how effective that might be but in principle seems to stack up.
How have you found the use of superquilt? I use it in lofts for my day job on a regular basis and found it to be excellent so was stuggling to see why not many people seemed to use it on their van conversions. It seems the prefect solution. Thin, flexible and good thermal properties.
Thank you for your message. yes it has worked perfectly, even in the very hot weather recently and back in June the ceiling was nice and cool. In fact, on the next build I may consider this for everything. it seems the perfect solution with good thermal properties, thin and flexible and radiant barrier on both sides. Ultimately it is the radiant barrier that is needed above all else, keep the heat out in summer and the heat in during winter. yes, it will also work as an all in one solution with vapour barrier I suppose for the vapour barrier obsessives. only reason i can think of that people dont use it is cost perhaps, I'm not sure. I definitely would again for sure.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 many thanks for your reply. I also have the same thought as you regarding vapour barriers. I think anyone trying to achieve the perfect vapour barrier is just pissing into the wind! So why even try? My plan is to use a form insulation that even if it gets damp will not disintegrate or degrade therefore once heat and ventilation is restored it will quite simply dry out..
I find it a bit strange that people go to all this trouble to insulate but then you have the windows and the whole cab area open to the elements.It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison of 2 identical vans one insulated and one not.May keep the heat in but cool in summer?
no it is not. reflectix is basically foil lined bubble wrap and is cheap and crap. i used Superquilt which is a multi layer foil insulation at over £100 for a 25m roll.
How have you found it now, a year on? Im in 2 minds now. I might do a vapour barrier to kind of funnel the vapour towards the roof fan but purposely leave ventilation holes in areas and allow for drainage
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 Hello, I'm currently at the point with my build where I need to decide about to use a vapour barrier or not. Leaning towards not doing it, is yours still holding up?
@@joshtye2673 Yes, no sign of condensation at all. I think you could perhaps consider that if you will be a weekend warrior with the occasional longer trip then probably not needed at all. if on the other hand you are going to live in your van full time and therefore using it for cooking, showers etc during the 'risk' times of the year such as autumn and early spring (for condensation) then it perhaps wont harm to do it?
Here's a thought ( It's OK, I don't get a lot of these), you use a self adhesive insulation on the walls and ceiling of the van. Why not go the whole hog and use it on the inside of the wall panels and ceiling panels. Be they Solway, ply or any other hard material. You then have two layers of insulation with a decent air gap between. Also no rattling from loose insulation blocks or pooling of plastic bottle insulation. The van I plan isn't going to be used during winter, so how much insulation does it need? Would rather have the extra space, which is the real luxury. I'll get me coat...
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 I don’t even own a camper van, having researched how to insulate a van(I was fed up of cold noisy work van) I keep watching these videos. Think your the only one I’ve seen use Superquilt in a van, it works perfect in a house so I can’t see any reason why it wouldn’t work in a van 👍
But what will happen to the 30 quarts of moisture that's gonna get into the one inch square hole anyway, regardless of whether there is a vapour barrier or not?
I've been working in my van for a month now & haven't done any insulation yet & i noticed that condensation only every forms on the roof panels, never anywhere else. It doesn't even condense on the roof ribs which many camper converters say is a thermal bridge & would therefore be just as cold as the outer skin. There is also a lot of condensation inside the ribs from the roof skin. I've a roof hatch fan which I open a little but haven't connected the electrics yet so I'm hoping that when the fan is trimming the condensation will stop. Ill also experiment with fitting PIR between the roof ribs to see if condensation still forms above it.
Good luck with your build! watch all the videos from everybody on the subject, but then, importantly, do what you believe is right for your build. think about how, when and where you will use the van as this will have an impact for sure.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203Since I'm going without a vapour barrier I've decided to place Bluetooth humidity sensors in the hard to reach places such as roof ribs where I'm not going to put any insulation which would hamper ventilation & have negligible insulation effect because of the thermal bridge to the van skin. That way I can find out exactly what conditions cause more condensation. I'll also have a sensor in the living space & one outside to compare since they're only £5 each.
@@MrGdevere Great idea at £5 each. behind my wardrobe/cupboard i can access the insulation and closed cell foam in the wall so can do a 'wet' check by hand. also the surrounds on the maxxfans come off easily with 4 screws to reveal the insulation and cavity in the roof so that is also an easy check. so far this winter, checking on a regular basis, all bone dry! just had a small amount of 'damp' on corner of one of the ceiling boards but I am sure it is where the rear maxxfan leaked and the water tracked across the board to the corner. leak fixed and all seems well now. time will tell if it is a clarkson style 'smug mode' or eating humble pie......
M8 absolutely brilliant your Wright about these supposedly full time vanners it's basically for the likes and to live on the subs there's a lot of gullible people out there that actually believe them big up your self love the build and the channel you and your family stay safe 👍 😀
Diy camper builders all seem to go down a black hole when it comes to insulation Inc you Let's put this into perspective No van or campervan on the planned is air tight Not one, if that was the case, People would die from a lack off oxygen. And with every justification to insulate. I can counter that argument because no one touches the cab area That's a 3rd off most vans If it was ubba critical to have to insulate or prevent heat loss, moisture etc etc at the back, why does that go out off the window when it comes to the cab Taking a realistic approach is something I've not seen by ANYONE
Thank you for the comment. perhaps for the benefit of everyone that reads the comments, you could elaborate on your ideas of a 'realistic approach' as it is good for lots of peoples ideas and suggestions, both good and bad with this topic.
There is clearly no perfect solution to avoiding condensation. In cold weather due to the temperature gradient between inside and outside, open cell or fibrous insulation will experience interstitial condensation where outwardly diffusing water vapour concentration reaches dewpoint and the insulation waterlogs. The point then in the rate of insulation breakdown is the rate of vapour migration, which is driven by indoor temperature, humidity and the vapour permeability of the internal wall and as mentioned, even small holes allow vapour to dramatically bypass the resistance of internal linings or vapour barriers. On balance I'd be looking at using closed cell insulation material that wherever exposed to vapour or contact with condensation / leaked water could not get saturated. There might then be good a case for having external vents, maybe with controllable shutters to allow ventilation in sunny conditions to improve drying out of cavities. I'm involved with a conversion in a habitation box fortunately with ready made 60mm foam sandwich walls and double glazed windows which should avoid the winter misery of a previous vehicle that would have been Rigsby's Rising Damp camper van of choice.
Thank you for your comment and detailed description of your thoughts. You are correct it is virtually impossible to 100% circumnavigate this problem, with the solutions I used I am one year on from the end of the build and with extensive use through all seasons I have had no issues and I check the cavity regularly so I am very happy with my solution. It is hilarious that it is only the 'pro barrier' side of the divide that get all hot under the collar about this topic and stamp their feet like children. like I said to all in my video, do what you think works for you, there is no right or wrong and I have only shared what I have done and my reasons why and couldn't really care what others do!?!
Iv purchased a 2012 Ducato Ambulance. They are partially insulated with 4 inches of Rockwool (glass fibre) spray glued to the walls. I took some of the trim panels off the outside of the van and the Rockwool was soaking, to the point it's causing rust. So it's a full rip out job. I have seen far to many van builds that stupidly used Rockwool as insulation and because it holds moisture it goes black and mouldy. So I think your correct. If your panelling/cladding the walls, that is a vapor barrier. Far better to use multiple layers of insulation, which stops the cold bridge from outside and that vastly reduces the amount of condensation forming on the cold metal surfaces. Your solway panels are already acting as a partial vapor barrier.
It would, especially a 12v one as I believe they are around 24w (ish) power consumption and quite honestly, a fantastic idea. thanks for the top tip and for watching.
Well said, That makes complete sense, I don't insulate or vapour barrier never have done, never will do, never had a problem, its complete waste of time and money, ventilation is key. Use dry heat if using in winter, warm clothing and bedding. At the end of the day its a perforated tin box on wheels with windows and doors ITS NEVER GOING TO BE HOUSE! I would say some of the materials a lot of these youtubers are using is actually a potential health risk, trapping moister in and causing damp and fungal growth. I can un screw most of my cladding, take it off check it, replace it if needed and screw it back on again. Its fun, its safe, it saves money, and if your not a natural DIY person it saves a lot of time and hassle when building your van. Currently freezing my balls off in Snowdonia and living the dream 😂😂
Thanks for the comment. it is my first build so will wait with baited breath to see if I made a wise choice, but the science behind it seems to stack up and make sense. also considering a 12v dehumidifier if things get steamy inside during use. all the best. You should visit the various delights of Wiltshire, quite mild here today! everything looks battleship grey of course for the time of year, but mild....
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 I share you opinions, i think your right on everything you say. I'm building a new van next year and have been scratching my head about insulation, i've always thought that all these youtube builds seem to go to the extremes, and as you say people follow like sheep. It was good to come across your video and somebody willing to challenge it having done some research, well done. I will be spending most of next year traveling in my van and I'm currently making a list of places to visit so Wiltshire is now on my list 😁 Thanks bud, liked and subscribed, keep up the great videos 👍
Why did you use thick stud work for your walls? I screwed my ply to the ribs, so I have maximum width. I also didn't Insulate the floor, and it isn't cold. I used sound deadening, & 25mm insulation. I didn't use a vapour barrier, because it's bullshit.
Thanks for your comment. I not sure I will do the floor on the next van. I did it as it seemed the 'done thing' but I agree with you, unless you are travelling to the deep snow areas it is simply not needed. and it adds a lot of extra KG to the build, not the PIR board but the battens. No sign of any condensation ANYWHERE so far so although it was a risk and against the 'grain', the science seems to hold up so far. ventilation and breathing....
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 one thing I would point out is that if you have an internal water tank, Insulate it, because you will get condensation. Seal the area around the tank. When I do my tank again, I'll be using plastic sheeting under the tank, and on any close sides to the water tank.
I agree, occaisional summer use in the right conditions, the moisture will dry out. Ive watched loads of folk instal them, badly. Thats worse. The vapour will get in. It wont be able to dry out properly. In effect held in. It wont be able to dry out and air. I use mine occasionally spring summer autumn. Im going to dodo mat and carpet the top half, dodo, bottle fluff and panel the bottom. Shock horror, not doing under the floor, the wheel arches will be just timber covered. It's mint now, but it's my forever van. It'll need welding eventually.
Here is hoping that will be the case with mine too. taking a bit of a gamble but I believe the science stacks up. next slide please..... ( hope you're in the UK or that last bit will make no sense whatsoever :-)
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 I’m in the UK and have built several vans professionally and for personal use Definitely a sheep mentality regarding vapour barriers. Don’t get me started on fuses, cable sizing and inverters!
Yes, experts on the subject! we love our British weather and we are not sorry or sour at all that all those years ago we sent our criminals to Australia and we stayed here? well that was back to front wasn't it.
I also wonder if the van community are sheep, but about that expensive and heavy sound deadener. Its heavy its expensive and its hidden under numerous layers of insulation, boards and cabinetry. I am sure its pointless. Im also sure the commercially produced vans from the big boys like Hymer, Swift, Eldis do not use it (ive had a peak)
I too was a sheep at the start, especially with sound deadening. now the benefit of hindsight and more knowledge, I will not be using it at all in Van No2 as the closed cell foam actually does the job for you.
Never ever go to sleep in your camper without the windows open little say 3 mm ....absolutely no need for a vapour barrier impossible for it to work properly in a van !
Thanks for the comment. yes we always have some ventilation, even in winter with the windows closed, the 2 maxxfans let ventilation through. I am very happy with my no vapour barrier choice, have used the van for best part of a year now and not a sign of condensation or wetness anywhere.
Agreed! re your Vapour Barrier assessment ...I wonder if a builder converted a van once and created a myth? For a vapour barrier to be effective the airtight seal needs to be absolute, which is impossible in a motor vehicle. All you can do is reduce the affect of any temperature difference between out and in by interrupting the thermal transfer (which you have done with the foam sheets on all large panels). This helps prevent condensation from forming on the bare inner skin in the first place. Then try to maintain airflow as much as possible to let it quickly dissipate if it does form. Great job on the build and love the sensible shortcuts you are taking with prefab panels etc, which also creates a great finish! I always pay myself a theoretical hourly rate then offset that against the extra cost of any prefab!
Thank you for your comment. Yes it does seem a bit of a myth! I wonder if Greg Virgoe's video has pushed many towards vapour barriers, don't get me wrong, a great build series not to be rubbished in any way whatsoever, and he is very much 'The Don' of van builds but he states a mechanical engineering background! Perhaps in commercial aircon and heating installs you do need condensation control but I am not sure this thought process is right for vans? at the end of the day it is 'each to their own' and for those who want to vapour barrier then great for them, no worries! but for me I am going the other way.
I think of all the videos I have watched this one is reflecting my thoughts. I always doubted my ability to create an effective vapour barrier. The conduit sticking through, even on GV videos, thats a source of ingress for condensation, are you really going to the trouble of shoving something down your conduits to stop that? We are talking a lot of work. And.... as i always say, you are doing nothing to the cab. It houses all the wiring and electronics for the vehicle. If you successfully vapour barrier your van space, the cab is where the condensation is going, because whatever you do, the condensation is the same. So vent it.
Thank you for your detailed response, and yes, right on all fronts. 3 years in and no issues with rot, mould, moisture etc so has worked fine for me. I am going to do a follow up video on this subject soon.
Installed a semi vapor barrier in my boxer van, there are gaps, and it is what it is, it is better than nothing, i doubt any van is truly vapor barrired. Also your solway panels are a non permeable barrier in them selves, !!!!!
Thanks for the comment. yes the solway panels are kind of a barrier, well before all the holes I made in them anyway :-), I agree that doing what you can within reason is good, but allowing the cavity to breath and good ventilation I believe are the 2 main ingredients. Its all about mitigation of the problem like a small roof light in the shower to let the humid air out, a fan or roof light over the cooking area etc etc. thanks again for watching.
How about the sound proof reasoning to add to the pros, and cons!,...Amazing how real sound proofing is achieved by doing this exact thing, with the same precision, sound waves, are like moisture waves, and any leaks are like a boat with holes, and no matter what material you use, Prepare to sink or swim!!...Can one noisy rig change your mind,!???...Maybe it's not about if, but about when!!!.....Noisy environments can make it unbearable, choose your poison!!!:
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 Wow, the lack of education and stupidity in that reply is beyond belief. Do you really, really think that a insulated metal box has the same properties as brick, plaster, and timber🤣😂
I personally think he is wrong and is not an expert in this field as nobody is. My build is now 12 months old and I have not a single drop of condensation anywhere. I don't care about any alleged science others may quote as this is all from the building industry anyway. I go by what I see with my eyes....
Carried out lots and lots of research and came to my conclusions that have been perfect for me and 3 years on, no sign of moisture or damp or rot or anything else so was the right choice for me. You do you however and my version of lazy are those who just follow and copy god 'Virgoe' with no research or thinking for themselves like a bunch of moronic sheep, but hey, you do you my friend.
I think it was vanology that explained the vapour barrier theory on a video I watched to day and it makes so much sense.
I dont think they install vapour barriers do they? like most 'professional' builders in fact. only the DIY'ers who copy each other.
@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 I've seen so many now I'm not sure.what I've learnt tho. And mines not finished. Is that condensation loves a cold surface.
Beautifully put. Totally agree. I used closed spray foam directly on to the panels (2 years ago) and so far no problems. No vapour barrier fitted. I’ve designed most of my wall panels to have plenty of ventilation, especially at the bottom, and they are all easily removed. Keep the van warm and ventilated when in use, and a dehumidifier in winter if possible
Thanks for sharing.
that foam is it's own vapour barrier, it shouldn't need anything extra.
This was very informative and helpful 👏 It provides a reasoned explanation for your decision and I would say that I agree with your evaluation!
thank you for that.
I totally agree with you. How about a vent on the roof to keep air moving about in the cavity. Great video, very interesting.👍
Winter & Condensation. I was building my van in winter with a frost outside. Within 20 minutes of being inside, my van was like a rainforest, the condensation was just so very high. Time will tell whether you are correct, but after seeing my windscreen on the first winters morning of an overnight stay it really hit home the levels of condensation these vans suffer. I didn’t use a vapour barrier as such, I used high density foam wherever possible, diall insulation only in the difficult areas and sealed every hole I could find with aluminium tape. It doesn’t need to be air tight in my opinion, but you must stop the internal temperature meeting the external surface temperature.
Thank you for your detailed comment. hopefully the comments from the community will help others to decide if vapour barriers are right for them or not. regards.
How much ventilation did you have..makes a big difference.
I learned from a professional that sealing off every little hole is actually NOT a good idea. You need to leave a few holes so that moisture and air can flow and doesnt get trapped. Im not the expert but he claims thats one of the biggest mistakes he sees on DIY builds next to using reflectix without an air gap.
Same. Had all the doors open and the roof was dripping after 20mins today. -3 outside but no heating in the van. The roof has a layer of thermoliner on it already but the foil is cold and frozen under the patches of recycled bottle. I'm kind of reluctant to use a vapour barrier because I don't like the idea of trapping moisture in. Contemplating putting a layer of stretch carpet over the foil side just to take away that cold point. I have done a few test patches today. I guess if there was heating in the van, the moisture would quickly dissipate through open windows. The roof seems to be where the moisture is collecting most. I like the thought of that moisture being burnt off quickly with heat but afraid it'd just stay there with a moisture barrier
Very valid points raised you have clearly thought long and hard on the subject nice to see you're not one of the sheep, haven't started my insulation yet you've given me a lot of food for thought 😰 hope everything goes well, crack on👍
Much appreciated
Thanks for a very good explanation regarding vapor barrier or not. We have come to the same conclusion as you, ventilate properly instead.
Thank you for the comment. I have an update on this topic coming soon. dont worry, im not jumping ship....
You are right. I've just bought an ex-Ambulance Service Command and Control vehicle to convert. All insulated etc, but no vapour barrier installed. It's 19 years old and the only bit of rust or rot was from a small leak in the back garage compartment where the extending NightScan lighting system was installed.
Thanks for your comment and experience. the 'no' camp need more voices to offer a more level playing field in this contentious debate.
We came to the same decision to not put in a vapour barrier. We were on the fence for a while but the more we thought and researched about it, and worked in the van, the more we swayed against it. Like you still open minded and will keep some areas accessible to allow us to check every now and then how everything's looking, and chose hydrophobic insulation materials. We're going with the approach of dry heat and air flow to combat moisture and the assumption that warm air will inevitably come into contact with cold surfaces and condense. We've experienced water collect in one of the pillars through a small leak in the roof, and then seeing all the holes throughout, even the ends of the wire conduit and things like that. Tricky decision to make though as there are so many variables and you need time to tell if you have a problem or not. So we'll see! 🙂 Good luck with the rest of the build!
Thank you. time will tell!
I had some deadlocks fitted to my VW Crafter a few months ago. I mentioned I intended to do a camper conversion. One thing the fitter said was don't use expanding or non-expanding foam insulation. He said they often find pools of condensed water in areas where the foam hasn't filled. Makes sense to me. I would though use a mildly expanding foam in areas like inside the roof bars and other areas difficult to reach. I would make sure the foam has completely filled the cavity though. This is purely for the small ribs that strengthen the bodywork. I would recommend using a proper gun and choosing your foam carefully. There are different expansion rates etc. I would use the closed foam adhesive on the panels themselves over the sound deadening material like this video shows. As for a complete vapor barrier over the whole lot I personally think it would be beneficial.
A very compelling argument and perfect timing for me to stumble across it, cheers dude
Glad it was helpful!
Well argued case for omitting a vapour barrier. A good layer of closed-cell foam against the van metal should prevent a good portion of condensation which together with ventilation of the other insulation plus good drainage will provide a very workable solution. These features are easier to achieve for the majority of builders than a vapour barrier which, as you point out, really does have to be near perfect to get the desired effect.
Thank you for the comment
I'm starting my third build and have never fitted a VB as in my mind airflow will keep the inner walls dry and fresh and remove mosture in the same way as the air bricks in older houses. Never had a damp problem in the previous two.
Will now check your earlier videos as it's my first Relay.
Thanks for the info. I agree that airflow is the answer but it will always be a contentious issue with people firmly in one camp or the other.
In one of the van conversion videos I watched, they were extremely thorough with vapour barrier and planning everything to minute details, yet still had external water leaks and other problems, so an external water leak is behind the barrier, then possibly trapped, I have gone for a hybrid approach, so I have access still. And like others have said if you ventilate the van and heat sensibly you should move moisture through
Thanks for the great comment. the fact that sells it most for me is this, the vast majority of 'respected' van builders, the ones that do it for a living like Humble Road to name just one, along with pretty much all the coach builders like Hymer, Adria, Autosleeper, Rollerteam etc etc, none of them install vapour barriers. now the pessimist will say they are just saving money, but if was really a problem and customers were complaining in large quantities about mould and damp etc, and on the basis for them it is probably no more than a few hours additional work with minimal extra expenses, would they not just do it for belt and braces?? they dont, why? it is just not required.... thanks for watching.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 I like your videos and the way you present them. Like you said in one of your videos, people feel obliged to try and fit a vapour barrier as youtube has them thinking the build will be compromised without one, this is how I started out thinking, then the more I watched the more I used my own judgment as to what I should do. My take is that if you can't fit a 100% vapour barrier & room ventilation then don't do it and like you mentioned it is pretty much impossible in a vehicle, the other thing I dont see anyone mentioning is if you open the cab area to the living area (windscreen and door windows aside) is anyone putting insulation in the front doors ?, anyway keep up the good work.
Another thing to consider is the airflow from the cab heater, where the air gets in is obvious, the grille below the windscreen, but where does it get back out? On some vehicles there's an obvious vent at the back but that's by no means universal, my guess is that the manufacturer intends there to be an airflow through the walls & out the weep vents in the sills & various holes they've left around the underside.
That is 100% correct. Every vehicle has an exit for air.
Most vans have grommets under the rear lights below the bumper, if you look you can usually spot them, cars have the same but exit ports vary.
2 years ago we converted a brand new Iveco Daily L4H3 which we now live in. That wasn't the plan originally but after two 90 day trips to Europe we hated being in a house. We stop warm air from touching cold metal by sticking foil bubble wrap to every inch of metal on the inside. We then insulated it with wool. 2 years on, a season sking in the alps and 2 summers in 30 degrees plus and we would recommend that method to anyone. We have no damp and the only condensation we get is on the windows of the cab.
I'm curious if there is any condensation behind the isolation. Also where the foil bubble wrap is not perfectly sticked onto the metal (air bubbles).
Hi mate, thanks for your comment, is that the 10ml foil insulation stuff you uses? Or any particular kind you can reccomend? Cheers.
A Webssto or truma heater running at night needs the maxxfan opened slightly no matter how cold it is outside. Living in a van and allowing the heat to rise and escape slowly will make sure moisture escapes. Air conditioning while driving for 2hrs a week will remove any remaining moisture. Vapour barriers are more trouble than they’re worth.
Thanks for the comment. agree completely.
Good reasoning here in my mind. I think that good ventilation is the key and not a vapour barrier. I compare it to loft insulation that we had installed at home a few years ago where the installers covered the soffit vents and the roof sweated badly with water vapour soaking into the roof trusses. There was nowhere for the vapour to go. Luckily we found out in time, uncovered the vents and installed more to be sure and no issues since so I don’t think I will be installing a vapour barrier but will be making sure there is adequate ventilation just as there is in a caravan.
Thank you for the detailed comment. I think we are on the same wavelength there. good luck with your build.
Great video . Ive been building most of my life and usually have been isulating wall and ceiling areas with some sort of air flow. I was also comtemplating using the súper quilt ( or space blanket as a lot of people refer to it )which I believe has the best insulating propertys available? and your video has sold it to me . Thank you sir 🙏
Glad to help
Oooh controversial! It's your van, do it your way and stuff everyone else. Lovely job :-)
Wonderful job, well done! Looking forward to it being finished. Will show it to my son, he has a Ducato.
Awesome! Thank you!
Agree 100% with every word, I am sure you are doing the right thing. Over the past year I must have viewed just about every van conversion video several times, and at last someone has put out a video addressing all the concerns that I have had. Brilliant. Thank you so much. By the way, if you examine the "professional" conversions or talk to any conversion company, I don't think you will find any vapour barriers being used. As in any inside space, good ventilation is the key. Now, where I have I heard that?
Thanks Peter. Last time I went to a campervan shop I had a dig around in a Hymer, an Adria and a Autosleeper and yep, no vapour barriers to be seen in any of them! is this a money saver or just not needed? interesting isn't it. My theory is going to be have good ventilation through the maxxfans at all times to mitigate against the humidity build up.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 it would be interesting to go to one of the big shows & ask a company technician, maybe over a cup of tea so you can talk it through thoroughly.
artic units basically had no insulation years ago, just a gap from trim to metal, crack a window open all was good seal it up and condensation was bad in winter, nightheater was dry air so wasnt a problem.
very good points. thanks.
Thanks for the video. I can’t find in detail how you did actually insulate the van; for example I’m using PIR board but won’t have a decent gap; I agree with your theory in principle but think it would need a cavity gap - for example in houses PIR board is installed with spacers. I’ve started with the foil taped PIR board method and have quickly realised it won’t be perfect despite best intentions so now feel stuck!
I went for 7mm closed cell foam stuck straight to the van metal and then 100mm recycled bottle insulation. that's it! the 'decorative' layer does not really have any insulation properties so I dont count that (solway panels) but it does continue the mitigation against moisture as it is a solid plastic layer across at least some of the covering. 2 years on from the build I dont have any condensation or damp issues but I am pro-active about it. for example at this time of the year being November/December (the worst time for damp in vans in the UK) I have the van plugged to shore power on my drive and I run a small 500W fan heater overnight on a timer to help mitigate any issues before they arise and recommend others do the same. yes it costs around £30 a month for 5 hours a night over the course of a couple of months but for me, money well spent.
Thanks so much for the reply, it’s really helpful. I’ve decided (and started) putting PIr insulation on first but with spacers to create a small cavity between outer wall and then topping with recycled wool. Will have ply walls unlike your plastic althoigh one option is two layers of an oil based paint which is apparently not permeable althoigh that may defeat the purpose and I might deliberately use an acrylic so there is air flow. (Still undecided). Had a similar plan with heater - spoke to a friend who is a commercial damp specialist and he recommended a tube heater. This will be my second vehicle though and get use throughout winter so although that means more condensation from breath etc it will hopefully also mean it gets more warmth and ventilation from just being used.
I have used a vapour barrier, didn’t find it a problem to seal it up effectively using foil tape, better to keep the moist air away from cold metal, especially with our high humidity levels here in the UK.
I personally don’t believe a van could be ventilated sufficiently during the cold damp months to dry out any moisture that gets in to the wall space if there was no vapour barrier installed.
Greg Virgo has an interesting video on the effectiveness of a vapour barrier on his channel.
Thanks for the comment and your experience. I tried to replicate Greg's ice bucket experiment last summer with a chilled bottle of beer, it did not work as I ran out of liquid quite quickly and after several attempts found myself less and less worried about the results :-)
I also have a L4H3 and been trying to work out a solution for having a rear passenger bench, two underslung CAK tanks, an underslung LPG tank, while also having a shower room with a fitted toilet.
It seems this all may be possible after all from seeing your build.
thanks for the comment, yes all is possible. on van number two the major change i would make is a smaller shower room as we use the shower for 'emergencies' only.
3:30 The important thing in insulation is the R value of the material. Generally 3R is ideal. In the image of the material you use, the R value appears to be 2.25. It looks quite suitable. I do not know how the cost of mineral wool price in your country
Hey, thanks for your thoughts! Two years are gone now. Would you be so kind to do a follow-up video? Would like to know, you had any mold in your PET=insulation.
thanks for the message. yes I am planning a follow up video and the results are in ...and interesting!
I noticed a professional van builder not using a vapor barrier not long ago so I asked him why? He said most professional builders won't fit one due to issues later on in the vans life
Exactly! thanks for sharing.
Why do old camper vans smell like old camper vans? 😅😅😅 I think you asked the million dollar question, and gave a million dollar explination. Well done!
thanks a lot.
thank you.
6:09 it is possible to stop PIR board squeaking, gluing it so it only touches one side is most obvious to me but there are other techniques.
dont know im afriad , only used 25m PIR in the floor
Building an L4H3 Ducato down in Oz that will travel between hot dry air and hot wet air and like you reasoned out that breathability and ventilation are the key. Trying to keep water, and as you say - air, out of the intra impermeable barrier areas created by a vapour barrier would require an intensity and OCD like level of concentration beyond most of us. Many people have seen the vids and slapped the tin foil and bubblewrap staff everywhere, only time will tell. The positive aspect is that they are adventurers who have got off their backsides and had a go, kudos for that. Thanks for the great series and sharing your thoughts and ideas. God save the Queen.
Cheers mate! (god save the...?...!....? kangaroo?) not jealous of your description of hot dry and hot wet at all :-)
Great subject, combating condensation in a van where people live full-time is a difficult subject to come to a conclusion about, .......on the whole I personally don`t believe in vapour barriers (except perhaps a dedicated shower area or flooring) because they create moisture traps behind many hidden areas (unless they are totally sealed everywhere), but I do believe in good loose insulation on top of or with what you have used (closed cell foam directly on the metal) and air gaps with good airflow & vent grids (even behind panelling) + heating to create a even ambient temperature inside a campervan (even in cold climates) - water will only pool if its got nowhere to go or drain = fugal growth (smells etc).
Also i think people are too scared to not use a vapour barrier because they are concerned that their vans will rust from the inside, so is it possible to use a tanking solution (like they use in wetrooms in houses) to combat this on metal directly?
great comment. thank you for watching.
Hey, nice work! I've been watching your build for a bit now, and stealing ideas for myself ;) Question about the multifoil, how much of that stuff have you used for your ceiling and how have you attached it? Thanks
used about 1/2 of the roll only. planning to put some up in the over cab shelf behind the lining and will no doubt find some other uses for it, it is very light so will stuff it all in somewhere. please see the ceiling build video for the installation of it. thanks.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 right, thanks. I'll definitely have a look 👍
Hi, just a quick question also about the multifoil insulation that you used on the roof. I'm converting a Mercedes Vito which is a small van, I'm thinking of using the multifoil on the sides and doors also, as it's much slimmer than say diall, 40mm vs 100mm, this might leave some room storage pockets. I guess my question is would you think its suitable for these areas also? I was thinking of using light batons between the installation and the wall for air. I am also going with no vb. Hope I've explained myself here, my first build, thanks for the videos 👍
@@jayvanday7402 Vitos are known for rusting so it definitely needs ventilation in the panels but also, as much as possible, keep moisture out of the structure.
Great video. At last! Some thought out logic! Well said sir.
Thank you. very kind.
Always wondered why those conversion vans that transport elderly and such dont have any additional insulation other than oem .
Hmm, interesting. So do most peoples vapour barriers just act as another insulation source then 🤔
What about if you run the air con whenever you're driving won't that dry it out enough.
Great vid, 👍
Vapour barriers add near negligible insulation, the explanation what they do is in the name.
Hi there . Thank you for posting this video. Please can I ask you what you finished off the ceiling and in ? Looks like finished hard board. And what panelling is on the walls? Thanks
It is the 3mm ply with vinyl covering from Morlands. hope that helps.
I think you should just buy a submarine mate 😂 might be easier keeping the water out!ha …
on a serious note, I’d be really interested to see an experiment of 2 vans, one with a barrier and one without and see if any differences after a few years.
I think that experiment would be interesting, and can be seen now anywhere in the country. go to your local motorhome store and look at a 2 or 3 year old hymer or adria or similar and slide your hand in somewhere to feel the insulation....
So how is it, 3 yrs on was it the right decision?
So it's a year on and bearing in mind your low usage as you explained, what's the condition of your insulation now, doing things like this helps analyse and perfect
thanks for the great question. we have done best part of 18k miles over the last year around UK, France and Spain. i can honestly say we have had no condensation issues whatsoever, i have checked the insulation regularly as I can get my hand in behind the panel in one spot (left deliberately accessible) we do have a temp and humidity monitor in the van and when the humidity level goes up we crack a window or open the fan etc and uit ten drops back down. there was one day at home last Autumn when some slight condensation formed on the cupboard doors but after ventilating it went very quickly. it was one of those horrible damp, grey wet days of November. very happy with my choice overall. hope that helps.
I like your style. Great build so far. Cheers 🍻
Thank you! Cheers!
I am considering putting a one inch gap between the exterior walls and the interior walls without a vapor barrier. Inside this gap, I want to circulate dehymidified air and drain the water outside the vehicle. What do you think about this idea?
Thanks for the great question, it is indeed all about the air gap and good air flow to prevent condensation build up. I dont have experience of dehumidifiers suitable for 12v operation so cant really comment on how effective that might be but in principle seems to stack up.
Hello, a friend of mine has been living in a step van for over 50 years, for real.
Ill be doing a vapour barrier regardless. Seen way too many condensation problemsxas a builder
No worries! each to their own.
How have you found the use of superquilt? I use it in lofts for my day job on a regular basis and found it to be excellent so was stuggling to see why not many people seemed to use it on their van conversions. It seems the prefect solution. Thin, flexible and good thermal properties.
Thank you for your message. yes it has worked perfectly, even in the very hot weather recently and back in June the ceiling was nice and cool. In fact, on the next build I may consider this for everything. it seems the perfect solution with good thermal properties, thin and flexible and radiant barrier on both sides. Ultimately it is the radiant barrier that is needed above all else, keep the heat out in summer and the heat in during winter. yes, it will also work as an all in one solution with vapour barrier I suppose for the vapour barrier obsessives. only reason i can think of that people dont use it is cost perhaps, I'm not sure. I definitely would again for sure.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 many thanks for your reply. I also have the same thought as you regarding vapour barriers. I think anyone trying to achieve the perfect vapour barrier is just pissing into the wind! So why even try? My plan is to use a form insulation that even if it gets damp will not disintegrate or degrade therefore once heat and ventilation is restored it will quite simply dry out..
P.s really finding your videos very helpful.
I find it a bit strange that people go to all this trouble to insulate but then you have the windows and the whole cab area open to the elements.It would be interesting to see a side by side comparison of 2 identical vans one insulated and one not.May keep the heat in but cool in summer?
5:19 that's Reflectix, several campervan builders use it.
no it is not. reflectix is basically foil lined bubble wrap and is cheap and crap. i used Superquilt which is a multi layer foil insulation at over £100 for a 25m roll.
How is it getting on now?
All good and happy with vapour barrier decision.
How have you found it now, a year on? Im in 2 minds now. I might do a vapour barrier to kind of funnel the vapour towards the roof fan but purposely leave ventilation holes in areas and allow for drainage
Not a single sign of condensation after a year of use and I have checked 'behind the scenes' a good few times.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 Hello, I'm currently at the point with my build where I need to decide about to use a vapour barrier or not. Leaning towards not doing it, is yours still holding up?
@@joshtye2673 Yes, no sign of condensation at all. I think you could perhaps consider that if you will be a weekend warrior with the occasional longer trip then probably not needed at all. if on the other hand you are going to live in your van full time and therefore using it for cooking, showers etc during the 'risk' times of the year such as autumn and early spring (for condensation) then it perhaps wont harm to do it?
Here's a thought ( It's OK, I don't get a lot of these), you use a self adhesive insulation on the walls and ceiling of the van. Why not go the whole hog and use it on the inside of the
wall panels and ceiling panels. Be they Solway, ply or any other hard material.
You then have two layers of insulation with a decent air gap between. Also no rattling from loose insulation blocks or pooling of plastic bottle insulation. The van I plan isn't going to be used during winter, so how much insulation does it need? Would rather have the extra space, which is the real luxury.
I'll get me coat...
great ideas and tips. thanks for the comment which others will hopefully read and get benefit from also.
I find I need more insulation in summer in the UK, especially as I use a fixed solar panel.
It will find its way out. It will descend into the sill, and exit through the drainage holes.
Can’t beat Superquilt, best type of insulation. Even though I’m talking from a building aspect
I cant find any other evidence of this being used for campervans, but after doing my loft with it, it seemed such an perfect choice....
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 I don’t even own a camper van, having researched how to insulate a van(I was fed up of cold noisy work van) I keep watching these videos. Think your the only one I’ve seen use Superquilt in a van, it works perfect in a house so I can’t see any reason why it wouldn’t work in a van 👍
thats it i,m off to beachy head cant take anymore . lot of sense in what you say cheers
Very happy I found this video, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
But what will happen to the 30 quarts of moisture that's gonna get into the one inch square hole anyway, regardless of whether there is a vapour barrier or not?
Very interesting food for thought
Glad you liked it.
Did you add any insulation into the channels down each side of the van, below floor level?
no, defo not. left open for ventilation and also they are for water run off on the inside, hence the weep vents in the bottom.
YOU'RE WRONG!!!! Just kidding, I have no opinion on the matter. Very Informative video.
thanks buddy.
I've been working in my van for a month now & haven't done any insulation yet & i noticed that condensation only every forms on the roof panels, never anywhere else. It doesn't even condense on the roof ribs which many camper converters say is a thermal bridge & would therefore be just as cold as the outer skin. There is also a lot of condensation inside the ribs from the roof skin. I've a roof hatch fan which I open a little but haven't connected the electrics yet so I'm hoping that when the fan is trimming the condensation will stop. Ill also experiment with fitting PIR between the roof ribs to see if condensation still forms above it.
Good luck with your build! watch all the videos from everybody on the subject, but then, importantly, do what you believe is right for your build. think about how, when and where you will use the van as this will have an impact for sure.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203Since I'm going without a vapour barrier I've decided to place Bluetooth humidity sensors in the hard to reach places such as roof ribs where I'm not going to put any insulation which would hamper ventilation & have negligible insulation effect because of the thermal bridge to the van skin. That way I can find out exactly what conditions cause more condensation. I'll also have a sensor in the living space & one outside to compare since they're only £5 each.
@@MrGdevere Great idea at £5 each. behind my wardrobe/cupboard i can access the insulation and closed cell foam in the wall so can do a 'wet' check by hand. also the surrounds on the maxxfans come off easily with 4 screws to reveal the insulation and cavity in the roof so that is also an easy check. so far this winter, checking on a regular basis, all bone dry! just had a small amount of 'damp' on corner of one of the ceiling boards but I am sure it is where the rear maxxfan leaked and the water tracked across the board to the corner. leak fixed and all seems well now. time will tell if it is a clarkson style 'smug mode' or eating humble pie......
Have you had any issues since the built was complete ?
no and a '2 years on' video is in the making.
A man that speaks sense, exactly the same conclusion I came too
Thank you
Hi mate, how did you get on with this?
not a drop of damp or problems at all so all good.
I was just wondering how you've got all these years later with not installing a vapour barrier?
Great question. I am planning a follow up video so all will be revealed. but the 'spoiler' to that is, yes its fine..
Do you have a video on bed frame
Not yet but it is coming soon, thanks.
M8 absolutely brilliant your Wright about these supposedly full time vanners it's basically for the likes and to live on the subs there's a lot of gullible people out there that actually believe them big up your self love the build and the channel you and your family stay safe 👍 😀
Diy camper builders all seem to go down a black hole when it comes to insulation
Inc you
Let's put this into perspective
No van or campervan on the planned is air tight
Not one, if that was the case, People would die from a lack off oxygen.
And with every justification to insulate. I can counter that argument because no one touches the cab area
That's a 3rd off most vans
If it was ubba critical to have to insulate or prevent heat loss, moisture etc etc at the back, why does that go out off the window when it comes to the cab
Taking a realistic approach is something I've not seen by ANYONE
Thank you for the comment. perhaps for the benefit of everyone that reads the comments, you could elaborate on your ideas of a 'realistic approach' as it is good for lots of peoples ideas and suggestions, both good and bad with this topic.
There is clearly no perfect solution to avoiding condensation. In cold weather due to the temperature gradient between inside and outside, open cell or fibrous insulation will experience interstitial condensation where outwardly diffusing water vapour concentration reaches dewpoint and the insulation waterlogs. The point then in the rate of insulation breakdown is the rate of vapour migration, which is driven by indoor temperature, humidity and the vapour permeability of the internal wall and as mentioned, even small holes allow vapour to dramatically bypass the resistance of internal linings or vapour barriers. On balance I'd be looking at using closed cell insulation material that wherever exposed to vapour or contact with condensation / leaked water could not get saturated. There might then be good a case for having external vents, maybe with controllable shutters to allow ventilation in sunny conditions to improve drying out of cavities. I'm involved with a conversion in a habitation box fortunately with ready made 60mm foam sandwich walls and double glazed windows which should avoid the winter misery of a previous vehicle that would have been Rigsby's Rising Damp camper van of choice.
Thank you for your comment and detailed description of your thoughts. You are correct it is virtually impossible to 100% circumnavigate this problem, with the solutions I used I am one year on from the end of the build and with extensive use through all seasons I have had no issues and I check the cavity regularly so I am very happy with my solution. It is hilarious that it is only the 'pro barrier' side of the divide that get all hot under the collar about this topic and stamp their feet like children. like I said to all in my video, do what you think works for you, there is no right or wrong and I have only shared what I have done and my reasons why and couldn't really care what others do!?!
Thank you very helpful
You're welcome!
Iv purchased a 2012 Ducato Ambulance. They are partially insulated with 4 inches of Rockwool (glass fibre) spray glued to the walls. I took some of the trim panels off the outside of the van and the Rockwool was soaking, to the point it's causing rust. So it's a full rip out job.
I have seen far to many van builds that stupidly used Rockwool as insulation and because it holds moisture it goes black and mouldy. So I think your correct. If your panelling/cladding the walls, that is a vapor barrier. Far better to use multiple layers of insulation, which stops the cold bridge from outside and that vastly reduces the amount of condensation forming on the cold metal surfaces. Your solway panels are already acting as a partial vapor barrier.
Thank you for your views, time will indeed tell if I/we are correct or eating humble pie.
Very Interesting Video on the Vapour/ Moisture/ Air/ ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Thank you! Cheers!
Can you run a dehumidifier with your battery set up? No need for a vapour barrier then 👌🏻
It would, especially a 12v one as I believe they are around 24w (ish) power consumption and quite honestly, a fantastic idea. thanks for the top tip and for watching.
Well said, That makes complete sense, I don't insulate or vapour barrier never have done, never will do, never had a problem, its complete waste of time and money, ventilation is key. Use dry heat if using in winter, warm clothing and bedding. At the end of the day its a perforated tin box on wheels with windows and doors ITS NEVER GOING TO BE HOUSE! I would say some of the materials a lot of these youtubers are using is actually a potential health risk, trapping moister in and causing damp and fungal growth. I can un screw most of my cladding, take it off check it, replace it if needed and screw it back on again. Its fun, its safe, it saves money, and if your not a natural DIY person it saves a lot of time and hassle when building your van. Currently freezing my balls off in Snowdonia and living the dream 😂😂
Thanks for the comment. it is my first build so will wait with baited breath to see if I made a wise choice, but the science behind it seems to stack up and make sense. also considering a 12v dehumidifier if things get steamy inside during use. all the best. You should visit the various delights of Wiltshire, quite mild here today! everything looks battleship grey of course for the time of year, but mild....
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 I share you opinions, i think your right on everything you say. I'm building a new van next year and have been scratching my head about insulation, i've always thought that all these youtube builds seem to go to the extremes, and as you say people follow like sheep. It was good to come across your video and somebody willing to challenge it having done some research, well done. I will be spending most of next year traveling in my van and I'm currently making a list of places to visit so Wiltshire is now on my list 😁 Thanks bud, liked and subscribed, keep up the great videos 👍
Why did you use thick stud work for your walls? I screwed my ply to the ribs, so I have maximum width. I also didn't Insulate the floor, and it isn't cold. I used sound deadening, & 25mm insulation. I didn't use a vapour barrier, because it's bullshit.
Thanks for your comment. I not sure I will do the floor on the next van. I did it as it seemed the 'done thing' but I agree with you, unless you are travelling to the deep snow areas it is simply not needed. and it adds a lot of extra KG to the build, not the PIR board but the battens. No sign of any condensation ANYWHERE so far so although it was a risk and against the 'grain', the science seems to hold up so far. ventilation and breathing....
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 one thing I would point out is that if you have an internal water tank, Insulate it, because you will get condensation. Seal the area around the tank. When I do my tank again, I'll be using plastic sheeting under the tank, and on any close sides to the water tank.
I agree, occaisional summer use in the right conditions, the moisture will dry out. Ive watched loads of folk instal them, badly. Thats worse. The vapour will get in. It wont be able to dry out properly. In effect held in. It wont be able to dry out and air.
I use mine occasionally spring summer autumn. Im going to dodo mat and carpet the top half, dodo, bottle fluff and panel the bottom. Shock horror, not doing under the floor, the wheel arches will be just timber covered. It's mint now, but it's my forever van. It'll need welding eventually.
thanks for the comment. yep, 18months in and not a single sign of condensation anywhere so very happy with my choice.
I rebuilt my van 6 years after it was built, and like all the other vans I’ve done, it didn’t have a vapour barrier and was bone dry
Here is hoping that will be the case with mine too. taking a bit of a gamble but I believe the science stacks up. next slide please..... ( hope you're in the UK or that last bit will make no sense whatsoever :-)
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203
I’m in the UK and have built several vans professionally and for personal use
Definitely a sheep mentality regarding vapour barriers. Don’t get me started on fuses, cable sizing and inverters!
Well, who am I to argue with you? You British people know your damp and mould right 😂
Yes, experts on the subject! we love our British weather and we are not sorry or sour at all that all those years ago we sent our criminals to Australia and we stayed here? well that was back to front wasn't it.
Sensible 👍👍
Thank you
I also wonder if the van community are sheep, but about that expensive and heavy sound deadener. Its heavy its expensive and its hidden under numerous layers of insulation, boards and cabinetry. I am sure its pointless. Im also sure the commercially produced vans from the big boys like Hymer, Swift, Eldis do not use it (ive had a peak)
I too was a sheep at the start, especially with sound deadening. now the benefit of hindsight and more knowledge, I will not be using it at all in Van No2 as the closed cell foam actually does the job for you.
Never ever go to sleep in your camper without the windows open little say 3 mm ....absolutely no need for a vapour barrier impossible for it to work properly in a van !
Thanks for the comment. yes we always have some ventilation, even in winter with the windows closed, the 2 maxxfans let ventilation through. I am very happy with my no vapour barrier choice, have used the van for best part of a year now and not a sign of condensation or wetness anywhere.
Convinced me. 👍🤣
I hope I have convinced myself and time will tell but I hope the theory, at least, stacks up. thanks for watching.
Let's face it you wont be living In it full time In the winter anyway so no worries.
Give that man a gold star! Even the alleged 'full timers' are tucked up cozy at home during the winter....
Agreed! re your Vapour Barrier assessment ...I wonder if a builder converted a van once and created a myth? For a vapour barrier to be effective the airtight seal needs to be absolute, which is impossible in a motor vehicle. All you can do is reduce the affect of any temperature difference between out and in by interrupting the thermal transfer (which you have done with the foam sheets on all large panels). This helps prevent condensation from forming on the bare inner skin in the first place. Then try to maintain airflow as much as possible to let it quickly dissipate if it does form.
Great job on the build and love the sensible shortcuts you are taking with prefab panels etc, which also creates a great finish! I always pay myself a theoretical hourly rate then offset that against the extra cost of any prefab!
Thank you for your comment. Yes it does seem a bit of a myth! I wonder if Greg Virgoe's video has pushed many towards vapour barriers, don't get me wrong, a great build series not to be rubbished in any way whatsoever, and he is very much 'The Don' of van builds but he states a mechanical engineering background! Perhaps in commercial aircon and heating installs you do need condensation control but I am not sure this thought process is right for vans? at the end of the day it is 'each to their own' and for those who want to vapour barrier then great for them, no worries! but for me I am going the other way.
I think of all the videos I have watched this one is reflecting my thoughts.
I always doubted my ability to create an effective vapour barrier.
The conduit sticking through, even on GV videos, thats a source of ingress for condensation, are you really going to the trouble of shoving something down your conduits to stop that?
We are talking a lot of work.
And.... as i always say, you are doing nothing to the cab.
It houses all the wiring and electronics for the vehicle.
If you successfully vapour barrier your van space, the cab is where the condensation is going, because whatever you do, the condensation is the same.
So vent it.
Thank you for your detailed response, and yes, right on all fronts. 3 years in and no issues with rot, mould, moisture etc so has worked fine for me. I am going to do a follow up video on this subject soon.
Installed a semi vapor barrier in my boxer van, there are gaps, and it is what it is, it is better than nothing, i doubt any van is truly vapor barrired. Also your solway panels are a non permeable barrier in them selves, !!!!!
Thanks for the comment. yes the solway panels are kind of a barrier, well before all the holes I made in them anyway :-), I agree that doing what you can within reason is good, but allowing the cavity to breath and good ventilation I believe are the 2 main ingredients. Its all about mitigation of the problem like a small roof light in the shower to let the humid air out, a fan or roof light over the cooking area etc etc. thanks again for watching.
How about the sound proof reasoning to add to the pros, and cons!,...Amazing how real sound proofing is achieved by doing this exact thing, with the same precision, sound waves, are like moisture waves, and any leaks are like a boat with holes, and no matter what material you use, Prepare to sink or swim!!...Can one noisy rig change your mind,!???...Maybe it's not about if, but about when!!!.....Noisy environments can make it unbearable, choose your poison!!!:
Thanks for the comment. Not really sure if that is for or against my solution but thanks for watching anyhoo.
Ridiculous comparing insulation and vapour properties of a building to those of a van, not even remotely similar !
No indeed, silly me. nobody cooks or showers in a house. you do you my friend. it was the right choice for me and very happy with it.
@@wiltshirecustomcamper7203 Wow, the lack of education and stupidity in that reply is beyond belief. Do you really, really think that a insulated metal box has the same properties as brick, plaster, and timber🤣😂
Wrong! Go watch Greg Virgo
I personally think he is wrong and is not an expert in this field as nobody is. My build is now 12 months old and I have not a single drop of condensation anywhere. I don't care about any alleged science others may quote as this is all from the building industry anyway. I go by what I see with my eyes....
Let’s be honest you aren’t doing a vapour barrier because you are lazy.
Literally takes little effort and finances to utilise one.
Carried out lots and lots of research and came to my conclusions that have been perfect for me and 3 years on, no sign of moisture or damp or rot or anything else so was the right choice for me. You do you however and my version of lazy are those who just follow and copy god 'Virgoe' with no research or thinking for themselves like a bunch of moronic sheep, but hey, you do you my friend.