7:00 "Joel crossed a lot of people over the years," said Ellie. If it weren't Abby avenging her father, it could have been fifty others. And not only people like paedo cannibal David, but - remember Joel said he'd been on the other side of the "pretend you're injured, flag down help and ambush them"? That's why Joel didn't ask - and not only did he not show any regret any remorse, he showed he didn't even care who she or her father were. In that moment, he threw away any chance of mercy from Abby's crew. This moment also showed the limits of his love for Ellie - most fathers would say, "at least spare her life, and when you kill me, don't make her watch." Most parents' last thoughts would be of their child. Not Joel. By the way, on possible avenging victims, when we first heard that Joel was being killed by someone's daughter, I thought it might turn out to be David's daughter. With David's daughter not knowing what a monster her father was. Remember too that it's not even clear Ellie knows about Abby's father. There's that bit where she says, "I know why you're here... the cure..." etc. She might have gone all the way to the end not ever knowing the real reason for all the chaos.
That’s a great point about Joel seeming to not regret his decision and not even caring why Abby was doing it. That just shows how he looks at things. He’s not necessarily a blatant asshole, but he’d rather die than beg for mercy or repent his actions. Love the response!
I just want to say that I think people saying that most of the game’s story issues can be boiled down to structure more than anything else is fairly justified. I also just want to say that most serious people who are critical of the game’s story will freely admit that killing Joel was not only an acceptable but maybe even a necessary development for the story of TLOU, disagreeing with the way a plot point was handled isn’t the same as saying “I don’t like this because they killed Joel.” It really felt like the developers wanted to push the themes more than anything else, even at the expense of the plot, which I’m normally against anyway but it’s especially egregious when 90% of the time it just feels like the message of the game is “Revenge bad” or “tribalism bad.” It’s not really that new or interesting. I honestly think that if they had just delayed Joel’s death until a bit further into the game that it wouldn’t have been nearly as poorly received by as many people as it was. P.S I subscribed after seeing your Breaking Bad Vs Walking dead video, I haven’t actually seen Walking Dead but I thought the video was well made, so keep up the good work.
I definitely agree they could’ve delayed Joel’s death in order to give us more time with his character. Unfortunately though, I think they had to kill him when they did because of the plot and story structure of this narrative. If they had gone with a different plot it might’ve given us more time with Joel which I wouldn’t have been opposed to. Again, this isn’t necessarily the story I would’ve told if I was Druckmann, but I think I can somewhat see where he was coming from 🤔 And thank you very much! I’m glad you were able to enjoy it without it having watched the show! More to come in the future, my friend 🙌🏻
You’ve managed to articulate how I feel about this game lol. Honestly the only thing I can recall is how emotionally drained I was by the end of my 1st playthrough. This game makes quite an unforgettable experience one way or another.
Honestly, i would have loved it if they used the second game to build up the conflict between joel and abby and then used the 3rd game to have a final conclusion to the conflict.
Honestly, I feel it should have been done like the death of Tommy in Mafia 2. This is a bit of a long story, so strap in (or watch a summary of Mafia 1&2 instead) So basically Tommy is the main character of Mafia 1. He has the usual ex Mafia storyline of got in too deep and became a FBI Informate. After it's over we see him decades later a older man when his old life catches up to him in the form of 2 goons and a shotgun. The skinny one tells you who sent them, the fat one pulls the trigger In Mafia 2, you play Vito. Towards the back half, he and his best friend Joe need a lot of money and fast. So you start taking any odd job you can get your hands on. One of them is a hit on a Federal Informant. Joe grabs the Shotgun, Vito tells him who sent them. What makes it interesting is the magnitude of both perspectives. For Vito, it's completely unremarkable except for the Desperation that led him to take the job. A drop in the bucket of sins he's committed to stay aflot. For Tommy, it's the crescendo of his entire life. Unrelated, I really like Vito's character arc. The only one like it is probably Mike from Fargo Season 2. Basically he trades his Family, his mentor, and inadvertently even Joe to become essentially a Middle Manager amongst the Made Men. And the cruelest part is that he thought he managed to bring Joe along with him. But Joe's car turned left and Vito's drove forward.
Hey man great video and I hope you get more subscribers since you put out some pretty nice content (came here from your walking dead vs breaking bad vid). I do still disagree with you though and I'm really not a fan of the game or the direction druckman and the ND team decided to take. I think you did a good job laying out the intent of what they were going for and I agree that the message in and of itself isn't bad. However this doesn't excuse the lackluster execution of that idea. I think people are too willing to excuse a lot of flaws in writing and stories simply because they like the themes and the ideas the author was going for. I think the real meat and potatoes of good story writing is not simply coming up with a good theme or idea, but being able to make a convincing well constructed narrative in order to deliver them properly. Either way nice video! Even though we disagree I still think you laid out your points in a well thought out manner and I applaud you for it. Keep up the good work man!
Thank you for taking the time to comment! This is a fantastic response and it’s exactly what I could’ve hoped for. Do I think this game is perfect? Absolutely not. But I found a way to understand and appreciate it for what it is, which is why I felt compelled to make this video. I respect that despite your disagreement with me on this game, you still managed to enjoy the video. That’s what it’s all about. Thank you, sir 🙏🏻
I love seeing deep dive videos like this instead of the usual blind hatred. I used to be upset at the initial ending of TLOU2, but with replaying the game a couple of times, I've come to similar conclusions. I also think it's an ultimate test of how ppl think, would you have the ability to let go of that rage to end a cycle of pain or continue the blind rage to "feel better."
Its not a game about 'revenge bad' or 'tribalism bad' it lets you take part in that tribalism/factionalism then shows you a reflection of your own self and im not talking about guilt. It understands what hate does to us. Its a game i cannot stop thinking about because of how it told its story and how i played part in it thats why i love it. It needs you to hate to demonize to absolutely despise in order to tell its story... only then can you understand the characters on both levels personally i love what they did with the story i understand people having problems with that, but instead of discussing it people choose to trash it when there is a lot of nuance to it...
Great way to put it. I think the most effective thing this game did is make you feel hate, which is exactly what the goal was. For some people though, they just couldn’t get past that hatred, despite what else happened in the story.
I loved this essay! Although i hate abby to the guts....but you made me realise that abby is more or less just like joel I guess i have to sit and think for some time haha
My favorite part in last of us 2 is when ellie had a joel flashback and wanted to kill abby so she went to california because tommy said some dude said she was there but by the time she got there she changed her mind and wanted to spare abby but then she had another joel flashback and wanted to kill abby again but then she had another joel flashback so she wanted to spare abby again.
Loved the video!! I love the detail you mentioned with Tommy’s sniper and the juxtaposition of it being so warm when it’s present with Ellie vs how cold/ruthless it is when with Abby. I did want to note though, that you mentioned that Ellie is the first one to break the cycle of vengeance and violence- but that was Abby. Abby decides not to kill Dina, even after seeing what Ellie had done to her friends, because Lev (literally, her ‘heart’) implores her not to do it, wherein she spares Dina (and Ellie, again). I only note that because I feel like that’s what makes players (at least for me and a few other players) all the more saddened/frustrated with Ellie’s future actions, because she chooses vengeance over staying with Dina and her baby.
I really liked this video, even if me personally I'm a little mixed on the game itself. There is one thing though that I think was really missing from your perspective (and tbh it may just be from a lack of experience with games), and that's when you portrayed a divide between "people who want a really good story" and "people who want games to be more 'gamey' ". I feel like this is a false dichotomy because it leaves out the fact that some of the greatest games tell their stories through their game mechanics, and can therefore give experiences that no other medium can provide. The fact that games can give the player choices can allow the events of a game to impact the player in so many unique ways, and having a medium where you are placed in the middle of the events can allow for a far deeper connection. Some of my personal favorite examples: -Deus Ex is a game with incredibly deep themes regarding the advancement of technology and the role of government, and offers seemingly hundreds of opportunities for the player to express their own morality/politics through both the story and the gameplay. -Undertale IMO handles the theme of empathy far better then TLOU2 by exploring the player's own ethics, and deconstructs the mindset that people go into games with. -The STALKER games are almost entirely built around immersing the player in an extremely tense atmosphere -Walking sims like The Beginners Guide tell unique stories through the environments that you travel through, even if the "gameplay" is pretty basic. -Even Sandbox games like Minecraft end up creating stories that are incredibly personal to each individual player I could go on about great storytelling in games that would be considered "gamey". TLOU2 really tried to make a story about empathy, and the cycle of violence, but the story really only works if you ignore everything that happens outside of cutscenes. The game tries really hard to make you emotionally impacted by the 10 or so people that Ellie kills in the cutscenes, not taking into account the 1000s of people that are brutally murdered by her in the actual game that you are playing. They added the feature of characters shouting out each-others names to try to make you feel bad about your actions, but after like the first couple times you stop caring, because those deaths literally do not matter in any way. While The Last of Us games do tell good stories, imo they are stories that don't really take advantage of the unique potential of video-games. I do still enjoy playing them, and I really like the TV show (which tbh is probably how this story should have been told anyways), but I really don't like when they are held up as the peak of gaming storytelling simply because they are more similar to formats that are already accepted as serious storytelling mediums.
this video 180'd my perception of TLOU 2. tbh ive never played it, i was too disappointed after seeing spoilers immediately after release. and kind of just wrote it off. never in the gamer rage kind of way, but in a. "it doesnt interest me anymore way." my girlfriend who has never played either LOVED the first season of TLOU show. and i was kind of dreading watching it. but after this vid i am looking forward to it more. and will give the game a shot.
Yes man 2:49 Playing some video games where the story is so real and engaging that i can relate and break down the games story and learn from the game that people all struggle its what you do with that pain from struggling that can make it worth something or it slowly drives you insane we all struggle i know i have i think in some way we all play games to escape this world in one way or another we are all the same After watching word brother
I think this story could’ve been so much better if the story was told in a different order. I like the story overall, but the way it’s told is the reason why it’s so controversial
6:42 Now, I want to counter argue this claim about Joel's demise. Btw spoliers to breaking bad and better call saul to whomever is reading this: I want to say while yes, we hear stories throughout the game that Joel wasn't a good person to begin with. Like he used to be a bandit and such, but the problem was that we don't see that story at all. Yes I know the torture scene with the 2 guys and the fireflies could say that he wasn't good, but at the same time, I feel they're was a reasonably intentions to those (I'll explain more in detail if asked about this). Now what about the breaking bad and better call saul part I said in the spoiler warning? Well I want to talk about a similar character to Joel that I believe is more fleshed out to question his moral actions, Mike. Mike to me felt similar to Joel's story, lost a child of his, became a father figure to someone, had a good heart, and died similarly how Joel died, like nothing. Unlike Joel however, we actually can see Mike's actions that I believe to be questionable and morally bad. Like how his son died because of Mike making him a dirty cop like him, which led him to die because of it, the fact he still became a criminal after his son died and moving to New Mexico, the Samaritan that died because of Mike's trying to get revenge from Hector for threatening his family, working for corrupt people like Gus, and killing Werner. I feel like these actions could be overlooked because they made Mike a likeable guy. Unlike Joel, they made him a likeable guy without giving much context of how bad he really is. Sure, maybe Joel killing people in the game is brutal, but at the same time, its the apocalypse where people mental state is bad and its either him or them. Now about the death part, Joel's death isn't great because it was never planned before hand when Joel killed "Abby Father" which I will protest because in the original game, the doctor had a more darker skin tone while part 2 he was white. So there was never even planned for a revenge plot or even second part and is there to be convenient for the plot to have a reason that Abby wanted to kill Joel. Unlike Joel's death, Mike's death felt more fleshed out. We see Mike very much despise of Walt and pretty much fueled Walt's hatred towards him. We can even see where Walt gets angry seeing Jesse and Mike shaking hands. When Walt shot Mike, we saw hints of Walt not liking Mike, so him shooting him isn't out of place and give us even more a reason to hate Walt without making me hate the writing. Overall, there's a good way to kill a good character and a bad way to kill a good character, and last of us part 2 didn't kill Joel the best way possible.
I’ll agree with you that when comparing the storytelling in TLOU2 to Breaking Bad, there’s basically no competition. Breaking Bad just felt so genuine and it seemed like everything was planned out from the beginning even though I know that wasn’t the case. However, with TLOU it’s very obvious. I highly doubt they ever thought there would be a sequel and that’s why they didn’t build up the doctor at all. On the surface, it does feel like they were grasping at straws to find something to spin-off for the second story. Regardless, I feel sharing the perspective of someone close to a minor character from the first game is an interesting story concept. Like, when I played the first game, I didn’t think twice about killing that doctor and I’m sure many people felt the same way. So having his death be the catalyst of the second game was an interesting choice, despite it being very clear they had not planned that in advance. Could they have done Joel’s death differently? Absolutely. They could’ve made the whole story different, but regardless of their decision, they didn’t have much to work with for a sequel. Whereas, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul just managed to pick up all the right threads. I won’t argue with you that TLOU2 is superior to BB cause it’s definitely not. But that’s a great point you made and thank you for watching!
*sigh* we still doing the "they changed the doctor's race"!! Nonsense?? The doctor is played by the same guy in both games: a white actor called Derek Phillips. The PS3 wasn't known for its great lighting effects. ND devs had to squeeze digital water out of stone to make it look as good as it does. Even then, multiple times Joel looks strangely yellow or his skin appears a bit wooden. The lighting just isn't excellent across the board. This is also seen on NPCs. The doctor NPC is just a default, white NPC who simply isn't well lit, so he appears darker. Look at Joel in that room! He is also not lit all that well himself.
The first person to let go was Abby when she let both Ellie and Dina live after Ellie killed the love of her life and all her friends. Then she helped Ellie get out of the island when Ellie cut her down. Abby moved on way before Ellie.
This series is actually about the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Interesting time to post this. But this entire series is very much about that conflict. I'm not sure what politics you are thinking about, but there you go.
I was thinking the same thing prior to posting the video. I wrote this script months back, before the Israel-Hamas war erupted, so I was thinking more generally about everything that's happening in the world. But I do know Druckmann is Israeli and that has certainly influenced his work in this series and others.
I think the Last of Us Part 2 and The Walking Dead have the exact same issue. Major spoilers for both but they both have a character (that the audience likes) get horribly killed, and then it just continues on, often focusing on the character that causes the horrible outcome. I don't believe Joel's death was an issue itself, but being forced to play as Abby after I just wanted to see how Ellie was, was brutal. The game decided to drag out Abby's bit and it felt dreadful. I wonder if the third game will do something interesting to make a re-playthrough of the series feel better. I'm also hopeful for the TV show for Part 2, as my expectations are set very low because of the game, it might surprise me lol
The main reason I dislike the game is how they handled the death of characters and how it impacts others, I know that might sound like the main plot but I don't mean only the death of Joel or Abby's father, but it starts from there, is like TLOU2 affects part 1 for the path the writers choose, we make our way killing minor characters and some irrelevant enemies, and in the end we kill a nameless character and it causes the events of part 2, I can kind of accept that as it can make sense, still, let's face it, those are just npcs within the game and there were probably no plans to go deeper into those characters... but in the world they present, those are people just like the character we play as, it doesn't sound like a bad idea, the problem is that it gets very inconsistent towards the end and it gets worse if you put some thought to what happens during both games... Apparently, some deaths matter and some don't, we get a scene were Ellie feels guilty for killing in self defense but no mention to the dozen we got rid of to get there, that happens several times and it just doesn't feel right because of what started TLOU2. I probably wouldn't care if they had not started the game making something unimportant important lol I also didn't like how they attempted to make us sympathize with Abby and Jerry, not for wanting us to see it from Abby's perspective but because of how it felt like they were forcing that unto the player, the way they portrayed those sections of the game just felt wrong. Lastly id say Joel being in the wrong has been common knowledge since the game came out.
That’s true and that’s a topic I wish I had covered in this video. I do think some of the lies were pretty shady, despite the justification of keeping the story under wraps as Druckmann claimed. But despite the misleading trailers, I think everyone knew Joel was gonna die, just maybe not as early as he did.
I am writing my dissertation on this game, and how it’s landscapes relate to our current climate anxiety. This video has motivated me to go and write a few thousand words. Thank you, my friend! This is my favourite channel at the moment. ❤
What makes the story so bad and ridiculous is the points it tries to make. It’s clearly a story about vengeance and the effects of pursuing/getting it has on the people on around you. Abby gets her revenge against Joel after hunting him down for a long period of time. Ellie is allowed to live but now wants her own revenge on Abby. The whole game she must kill hundreds of ppl, does anything she can to get what she thinks she’s owed, probably ruins hundreds or even thousands of lives through collateral and then at the very end she spares Abby. That is just some bullshit man. Not just from Ellie’s character perspective but also the player. We had to watch Joel getting murdered brutally while we couldn’t do anything and then finally our revenge is at hand and Ellie decides to be “the bigger person”. To me personally, this story isn’t only terrible, it’s insulting. I’m a big believer people can like or not like whatever they want but I myself will never understand how anyone enjoyed this game. Plus Drukkmann endlessly defending his decision to kill Joel, I absolutely guarantee they won’t do the same thing in the show. Joel won’t die until the end of season 2 mark my words and idk I find that so cowardly by Drukkmann because he was so self righteous about his decision being the right one.
The game is a hack job, trying to paint joel as the bad guy when he was in every single way the one in the right. In TLOU 1 the game tried to paint joel as the morally questionable one on the surface, but if you look into it, he's actually justified in all of his actions, read below for context. The surgeons that were going to operate on ellie were too young to be proper surgeons, at best they would've been in early medical school when the whole thing began, meaning they aren't qualified to do such a complicated surgery. If you needed more proof on that the game actually tells you that the surgeons actually operated on multiple immune people prior to ellie, and every single one of them ended in a failure, they had no idea how to even do it so they weren't just magically going to with the next child they kill. The reason they want to find a cure isn't for a noble reason either, they want to find it to basically play god with the world, only handing it out to those they deem worthy, it's a purely selfish motive and they are only looking for fame, so that's double that we've proven how they don't value human life. Lastly the girl joel shoots at the end, she also knew that ellie was being sent to her death and tried to object to it, but she was forced to back down, she knew that others were killed prior to ellie and knew that ellie would likely die for nothing, but despite that she backed down and eventually helped in trying to stop joel from saving ellie, this is despite her knowing ellie's sacrifice finding a cure is next to 0%. So basically joel did nothing wrong, the fireflies wouldn't have used a cure for anything other than a firefly ethnostate, and the surgeons have killed immune people before and found no cure, because they were in no way qualified for their work and they had no intention of letting better people take their position. But TLOU 2 ignores all of that and acts like joel is the bad guy, when that was only the surface narrative of the first game, the nuanced narrative was that joel was actually right, but tlou 2 goes purely surface level detail and it's an absolute hackjob of a game.
That’s a fair argument. I do think they retroactively tried to make Joel look more like the bad guy in the second game by adding Abby’s perspective. While I initially agreed with you that the game was not very strong, I’ve come around to it now and I personally wouldn’t say it’s a hack job. I can see why you feel that way though. That’s why I think a third game could give us the opportunity for redemption. If Ellie lives and she is able to provide some light to the world (not specifically sure how), it would justify Joel’s actions in the first game and honor his legacy. If he had let them perform the surgery, they very well could have killed her and still had no cure. But he chose to save her life, and I think she will do right by him without having to sacrifice herself.
@SGhosht I think it's not painting Joel as a bad person but more of justifying that Joel's death is deserved because of things he done (being a bandit in the past, brutally killing people, killing the doctor, etc). I'm guessing he's trying to say that those actions like killing fireflies don't make him bad and don't justify his death.
Joel was right to rescue Ellie. The WLF were clowns and Abby's dad may as well have been Dr Mengele. This does not mean Joel was right to kill everyone in his path to rescue her. Still less does it mean all the other violence he did in his life up till then was right. And while Joel may have been right to kill Abby's father, Abby was at the same time right to kill Joel. That's revenge - they're both right, and they're both wrong. And this is of course violence in general, such as in war. Both right, and both wrong.
Howdy fellow Red Dead Player :D I'm a bit confused, because I didn't catch on to some points you where making about the first game. Where does the first game mention that there where other people who where immune (I can only remember Joels lie to Ellie at the end) or that Marlene doesn't believe it either (imho it's made pretty clear she believes in said cure, but struggles with her promise to Ellies mother to protect her, yet decides to save humanity). I also can't remember about the Fireflies goals being talked about after finding the cure? In my opinion Joel making the very selfish/morally dark grey and understandable choice to save Ellie at the cost of a cure is what made the ending so great in the first place 😊 Black/White stories are boring as f
That can't be right. There are thousands of games made by the month, this game looks attentively produced so that in itself makes it so thatit's not the worst game in fiction history. Personally, I haven't played it, but you have to have objective or well thought out reasons and justifications to declare something is 'the worst of all time'.
@@ChocolateChipcookiie Tlou2 is by far the most piece of shit ever made to fiction imagine one of the fiction’s most well written character not only dying uncharacteristically way possible but laughable and stupidest way too and imagine his daughter the one who he chose her instead of saving the world, she forgiving her father’s murderer not only stupidest possible reason ever made but the most laughable because by then she genocided at least 500 families just to say revenge is bad at the end tlou2 is the most dog shit game ever created the game literally rushed and made the most dumb scenario to kill joel they literally rushed joel to die in the first 20 minutes of the game in literally the worst way possible this guy survived for 20 years survived many ambushes killed hordes of infected killed lots of men wiped out hospital full of soldiers and then we see him rescue someone and he doesn’t ask what the hell are you doing in this blizzard or who are you or even what is your name in the intro he told tommy what he has done in firefly hospital to save his step daughter ellie and when he sees abby i think he has dementia because he forgor someone might come after him after that hospital massacre and then he literally accepts the invitation to go to that stranger’s house knowing it’s full of other strangers he don’t know about and don’t try to say “he had no choice 🤓” “they were surrounded”🤓 it seems like ever since he moved here he was still on patrol because he is paranoid and hes been doing this for years and people thinking that this is the first time they were surrounded by a horde in a blizzard which is likely happens in jackson but in game they want us to believe they had no choice but to go to some house in somewhere which for some reason the house is well tidy but not captured by jackson people they could go back to jackson horses are faster than infected and it’s a blizzard infected will lost them anyway and they have walls a fucking base they can take down the horde but anyway they go there and looks like there was only 10 infected caught up to the horses which are from the forest not from that place they were surrounded looks like they have evaded them and then they go in not a single paranoia and holstering their backpack on their horse like “we won’t need it anyway???????” And not grabbing their pistol they are all relaxed with 10 strangers in the room surrounding them tommy is so relaxed he asks for towels while bending over to a counted joel goes middle of the room and tells them his name like i said i think he has dementia or garbage writing and then he be surprised “y’all seem like you’ve heard of us or something.” Bro are you fucking serious like no shit and then abby has dementia too because “people” call “her” a “good person” or “best character ever” because she would never kill anyone without mercy right? But joel saves abby and abby doesn’t even show mercy because “he killed my father oh no” joel had to kill his father they were going to kill his daughter and he pulled a knife on him and then we see ellie having sex while joel is being murdered and she goes there and we see abby changed clothes your “good person” has beat that old man to death so much she even had time to changed clothes she enjoyed every second and she still do it while ellie who is her daughter begging, literally begging to “her” to stop and then tell pull like how john wick’s dog’s murderers did, put his corpse there and she wakes up and sees his brains in the floor. Did they really said “oh yes fans will love this game?” I literally just explained how the game is garbage of one scene of the game I didn’t even start It’s extremely unrealistic that she found steroids, so much protein and calories to be like 100 kg bulk and fat in a fucking 25 year old apocalypse why would you based off her from a steroid user woman instead of like normal shaped woman in a fucking 25 year old apocalypse oh and not to mention that being that bulk is possible with genetics of her father who he isn’t even muscular and abby is a “woman” yeah sure looks so much like his father when daughters usually look like their father oh and you realized “she” is the literally the most muscular human in the entire world of apocalypse?? What was she the first one to find and know how to use gym gears before anyone at least in wlf base? Yeah stfu or you trolling or are you serious? Joel, this man survived dozens of ambushes by being paranoid, strong and smart remember when ellie and joel first met the hunters he said oh he ain’t rven hurt? Or remember how paranoid and smart he was saying that youd just come after her and he killed marlene to set up loose ends? He took zero risks but now in this woke piece of shit they tell their name to some stranger out in the blizzard completely trusting that transgender yet thinking it is a VERY good idea to go to someones house knowing there are much more people there yet when they go there they actually thought they were just a gonna get out of there no problem because they wouldn’t try to do something to them in this 25 year old apocalypse where people kill each other for food yet being too relaxed that they even put their backpacks on their horse and tommy saying yall got towels or anything and joel just wanders in the middle of the room and says his name and then gets surprised saying yall seem like youve heard of us or something like no shit not even having his pistol on his hand and literally died the most stupid way possible tlou2 is truly the worst game of all time in fiction history yet you sheep praise this piece of shit game because they added prone and dodge button after 7 years of waiting so you are saying this man who survived by 25 years in this hell apocalypse by being paranoid and smart who evaded multiple ambushes, armies and zombie hordes all by himself, and AFTER killing every fucking armed soldiers in a hospital all by himself after he just woke up killed literally everyone and their leader all though he told that to his brother what he has done, thinking oh well they are probably not after me and wouldn’t know who i am because they heard my name so much they put nicknames on me like the smuggler joel miller? Oh yeah in probably fine telling my name to some transgender bodybuilder all by himself in some middle of the blizzard and middle of zombie hordes who has said that he has friends hiding in some mansion near to our home? Hmmm yeah must be our neighbors who we knew what house were they even holes up even confirmed by tommy? Oh yeah they are probably just feeling generous to offer us some tea and be on our way where people kill each pther for starvation, rape defenseless people to at least have a bit fun in this hopeless survival of the world? Oh yeah we are probably gonna be fine although at least in my journey with ellie everyone who saw us tried to shoot to kill us when hunters tried to trick is or followed us to the university or the mall where i was wounded or even some resort? Just to kill us? Yeah we are fine imagine forgiving your father’s murderer for no reason at all you wouldn’t know because you don’t have a father that loves you (most likely) even you tlou2 fans don’t know “the real meaning” of the story some of yall say it’s about forgiveness i say oh so forgiving your father’s murderer who loves you so much that he literally sacrificed the world for you, for no reason? And yall sometimes say it’s about revenge i say oh so revenge is bad unless you are some npc’s transgender bodybuilder child (abby) and not ellie or you say it’s about some other dumb shit you woke mentally ill people keep on defending this piece of shit story it is the worst game ever made this game has literally worst characters ever existed possibly the worst pacing and they cutted out multiplayer with worst ending ever made and killing off one of the greatest character in extremely dumb way and they added just 2 new gameplay mechanics that was in gaming since 2004 lying in grass was started in metal gear solid 3 dodging was literally in every third person games jumping to someone was in uncharted 3/4 and hiding in bushes was in uncharted 4 they added nothing to the game and made the skill tree even worse literally all the guns are from tlou1 and it’s multiplayer’s dlc guns they only added shooting someone’s knee that makes them kneel that was in metal gear solid 2 2001 they cutted out skins on character’s that was in uncharted 1 all the way to tlou1 braindead people: “The story is about revenge is bad.” Oh but abby can have his revenge but ellie can’t?” “Oh i mean the story is about forgiveness.” Oh so you’d forgive your father’s murderer for literally no reason at all? The one who loved you so much he sacrificed the world for you? Imagine this: Someone breaks into your house kills your father who was protecting you and you pick up a gun but let him go for literally no reason and your mom asks why didn’t you kill that guy??? He murdered your father You: “you see, there is a deeper meaning to this…….” You tlou2 fans are extremely braindead it’s unbelievable if you’re serious Are you tlou2 fans this braindead? Are there any tlou2 fan he is at least smarter than a 12 yo?
7:00 "Joel crossed a lot of people over the years," said Ellie. If it weren't Abby avenging her father, it could have been fifty others. And not only people like paedo cannibal David, but - remember Joel said he'd been on the other side of the "pretend you're injured, flag down help and ambush them"?
That's why Joel didn't ask - and not only did he not show any regret any remorse, he showed he didn't even care who she or her father were. In that moment, he threw away any chance of mercy from Abby's crew. This moment also showed the limits of his love for Ellie - most fathers would say, "at least spare her life, and when you kill me, don't make her watch." Most parents' last thoughts would be of their child. Not Joel.
By the way, on possible avenging victims, when we first heard that Joel was being killed by someone's daughter, I thought it might turn out to be David's daughter. With David's daughter not knowing what a monster her father was.
Remember too that it's not even clear Ellie knows about Abby's father. There's that bit where she says, "I know why you're here... the cure..." etc. She might have gone all the way to the end not ever knowing the real reason for all the chaos.
That’s a great point about Joel seeming to not regret his decision and not even caring why Abby was doing it. That just shows how he looks at things. He’s not necessarily a blatant asshole, but he’d rather die than beg for mercy or repent his actions. Love the response!
I'm confused, Joel didn't know Ellie would arrive to watch him die? Why would he even mention Ellie?
I just want to say that I think people saying that most of the game’s story issues can be boiled down to structure more than anything else is fairly justified.
I also just want to say that most serious people who are critical of the game’s story will freely admit that killing Joel was not only an acceptable but maybe even a necessary development for the story of TLOU, disagreeing with the way a plot point was handled isn’t the same as saying “I don’t like this because they killed Joel.”
It really felt like the developers wanted to push the themes more than anything else, even at the expense of the plot, which I’m normally against anyway but it’s especially egregious when 90% of the time it just feels like the message of the game is “Revenge bad” or “tribalism bad.”
It’s not really that new or interesting.
I honestly think that if they had just delayed Joel’s death until a bit further into the game that it wouldn’t have been nearly as poorly received by as many people as it was.
P.S
I subscribed after seeing your Breaking Bad Vs Walking dead video, I haven’t actually seen Walking Dead but I thought the video was well made, so keep up the good work.
I definitely agree they could’ve delayed Joel’s death in order to give us more time with his character. Unfortunately though, I think they had to kill him when they did because of the plot and story structure of this narrative. If they had gone with a different plot it might’ve given us more time with Joel which I wouldn’t have been opposed to. Again, this isn’t necessarily the story I would’ve told if I was Druckmann, but I think I can somewhat see where he was coming from 🤔
And thank you very much! I’m glad you were able to enjoy it without it having watched the show! More to come in the future, my friend 🙌🏻
Fantastic video, very underrated channel. Keep up the great work!
You’ve managed to articulate how I feel about this game lol. Honestly the only thing I can recall is how emotionally drained I was by the end of my 1st playthrough. This game makes quite an unforgettable experience one way or another.
Keep up the work man, i love these video essays
Thanks, man. Will do 🫡
Honestly, i would have loved it if they used the second game to build up the conflict between joel and abby and then used the 3rd game to have a final conclusion to the conflict.
Honestly, I feel it should have been done like the death of Tommy in Mafia 2. This is a bit of a long story, so strap in (or watch a summary of Mafia 1&2 instead)
So basically Tommy is the main character of Mafia 1. He has the usual ex Mafia storyline of got in too deep and became a FBI Informate. After it's over we see him decades later a older man when his old life catches up to him in the form of 2 goons and a shotgun. The skinny one tells you who sent them, the fat one pulls the trigger
In Mafia 2, you play Vito. Towards the back half, he and his best friend Joe need a lot of money and fast. So you start taking any odd job you can get your hands on. One of them is a hit on a Federal Informant. Joe grabs the Shotgun, Vito tells him who sent them.
What makes it interesting is the magnitude of both perspectives. For Vito, it's completely unremarkable except for the Desperation that led him to take the job. A drop in the bucket of sins he's committed to stay aflot. For Tommy, it's the crescendo of his entire life.
Unrelated, I really like Vito's character arc. The only one like it is probably Mike from Fargo Season 2. Basically he trades his Family, his mentor, and inadvertently even Joe to become essentially a Middle Manager amongst the Made Men. And the cruelest part is that he thought he managed to bring Joe along with him. But Joe's car turned left and Vito's drove forward.
@@stephensmith7327 I loved those games. That is how you write a story
Hey man great video and I hope you get more subscribers since you put out some pretty nice content (came here from your walking dead vs breaking bad vid). I do still disagree with you though and I'm really not a fan of the game or the direction druckman and the ND team decided to take. I think you did a good job laying out the intent of what they were going for and I agree that the message in and of itself isn't bad. However this doesn't excuse the lackluster execution of that idea. I think people are too willing to excuse a lot of flaws in writing and stories simply because they like the themes and the ideas the author was going for. I think the real meat and potatoes of good story writing is not simply coming up with a good theme or idea, but being able to make a convincing well constructed narrative in order to deliver them properly. Either way nice video! Even though we disagree I still think you laid out your points in a well thought out manner and I applaud you for it. Keep up the good work man!
Thank you for taking the time to comment! This is a fantastic response and it’s exactly what I could’ve hoped for. Do I think this game is perfect? Absolutely not. But I found a way to understand and appreciate it for what it is, which is why I felt compelled to make this video. I respect that despite your disagreement with me on this game, you still managed to enjoy the video. That’s what it’s all about. Thank you, sir 🙏🏻
I love seeing deep dive videos like this instead of the usual blind hatred. I used to be upset at the initial ending of TLOU2, but with replaying the game a couple of times, I've come to similar conclusions. I also think it's an ultimate test of how ppl think, would you have the ability to let go of that rage to end a cycle of pain or continue the blind rage to "feel better."
Its not a game about 'revenge bad' or 'tribalism bad' it lets you take part in that tribalism/factionalism then shows you a reflection of your own self and im not talking about guilt. It understands what hate does to us.
Its a game i cannot stop thinking about because of how it told its story and how i played part in it thats why i love it. It needs you to hate to demonize to absolutely despise in order to tell its story... only then can you understand the characters on both levels personally i love what they did with the story i understand people having problems with that, but instead of discussing it people choose to trash it when there is a lot of nuance to it...
Great way to put it. I think the most effective thing this game did is make you feel hate, which is exactly what the goal was. For some people though, they just couldn’t get past that hatred, despite what else happened in the story.
Had to do a double take when I heard “Josh Nichols” 😂😂
I loved this essay! Although i hate abby to the guts....but you made me realise that abby is more or less just like joel
I guess i have to sit and think for some time haha
Great video man. Keep it up 👍
My favorite part in last of us 2 is when ellie had a joel flashback and wanted to kill abby so she went to california because tommy said some dude said she was there but by the time she got there she changed her mind and wanted to spare abby but then she had another joel flashback and wanted to kill abby again but then she had another joel flashback so she wanted to spare abby again.
Loved the video!! I love the detail you mentioned with Tommy’s sniper and the juxtaposition of it being so warm when it’s present with Ellie vs how cold/ruthless it is when with Abby.
I did want to note though, that you mentioned that Ellie is the first one to break the cycle of vengeance and violence- but that was Abby.
Abby decides not to kill Dina, even after seeing what Ellie had done to her friends, because Lev (literally, her ‘heart’) implores her not to do it, wherein she spares Dina (and Ellie, again).
I only note that because I feel like that’s what makes players (at least for me and a few other players) all the more saddened/frustrated with Ellie’s future actions, because she chooses vengeance over staying with Dina and her baby.
This is actually a great point I completely brushed over/missed. Thanks for pointing it out!
Omg ofc
Words taken from my mouth.
2nd vid watched in one evening consider me hooked to your content
I’m glad you enjoy the content, it means a lot! More to come soon 👀
Really deep commentary... congratulations.
Yuuupp subscribed
Great vid, it helped me get over the game kinda
I really liked this video, even if me personally I'm a little mixed on the game itself. There is one thing though that I think was really missing from your perspective (and tbh it may just be from a lack of experience with games), and that's when you portrayed a divide between "people who want a really good story" and "people who want games to be more 'gamey' ".
I feel like this is a false dichotomy because it leaves out the fact that some of the greatest games tell their stories through their game mechanics, and can therefore give experiences that no other medium can provide. The fact that games can give the player choices can allow the events of a game to impact the player in so many unique ways, and having a medium where you are placed in the middle of the events can allow for a far deeper connection.
Some of my personal favorite examples:
-Deus Ex is a game with incredibly deep themes regarding the advancement of technology and the role of government, and offers seemingly hundreds of opportunities for the player to express their own morality/politics through both the story and the gameplay.
-Undertale IMO handles the theme of empathy far better then TLOU2 by exploring the player's own ethics, and deconstructs the mindset that people go into games with.
-The STALKER games are almost entirely built around immersing the player in an extremely tense atmosphere
-Walking sims like The Beginners Guide tell unique stories through the environments that you travel through, even if the "gameplay" is pretty basic.
-Even Sandbox games like Minecraft end up creating stories that are incredibly personal to each individual player
I could go on about great storytelling in games that would be considered "gamey".
TLOU2 really tried to make a story about empathy, and the cycle of violence, but the story really only works if you ignore everything that happens outside of cutscenes. The game tries really hard to make you emotionally impacted by the 10 or so people that Ellie kills in the cutscenes, not taking into account the 1000s of people that are brutally murdered by her in the actual game that you are playing. They added the feature of characters shouting out each-others names to try to make you feel bad about your actions, but after like the first couple times you stop caring, because those deaths literally do not matter in any way.
While The Last of Us games do tell good stories, imo they are stories that don't really take advantage of the unique potential of video-games. I do still enjoy playing them, and I really like the TV show (which tbh is probably how this story should have been told anyways), but I really don't like when they are held up as the peak of gaming storytelling simply because they are more similar to formats that are already accepted as serious storytelling mediums.
The spoil warning was fantastic
this video 180'd my perception of TLOU 2.
tbh ive never played it, i was too disappointed after seeing spoilers immediately after release. and kind of just wrote it off.
never in the gamer rage kind of way, but in a. "it doesnt interest me anymore way."
my girlfriend who has never played either LOVED the first season of TLOU show. and i was kind of dreading watching it.
but after this vid i am looking forward to it more. and will give the game a shot.
The first game is a masterpiece. Im still working on the 3nd one.
First game is definitely the GOAT. No arguing with that
Yes man 2:49 Playing some video games where the story is so real and engaging that i can relate and break down the games story and learn from the game that people all struggle its what you do with that pain from struggling that can make it worth something or it slowly drives you insane we all struggle i know i have i think in some way we all play games to escape this world in one way or another we are all the same
After watching word brother
I think this story could’ve been so much better if the story was told in a different order. I like the story overall, but the way it’s told is the reason why it’s so controversial
6:42
Now, I want to counter argue this claim about Joel's demise.
Btw spoliers to breaking bad and better call saul to whomever is reading this:
I want to say while yes, we hear stories throughout the game that Joel wasn't a good person to begin with. Like he used to be a bandit and such, but the problem was that we don't see that story at all. Yes I know the torture scene with the 2 guys and the fireflies could say that he wasn't good, but at the same time, I feel they're was a reasonably intentions to those (I'll explain more in detail if asked about this). Now what about the breaking bad and better call saul part I said in the spoiler warning? Well I want to talk about a similar character to Joel that I believe is more fleshed out to question his moral actions, Mike. Mike to me felt similar to Joel's story, lost a child of his, became a father figure to someone, had a good heart, and died similarly how Joel died, like nothing. Unlike Joel however, we actually can see Mike's actions that I believe to be questionable and morally bad. Like how his son died because of Mike making him a dirty cop like him, which led him to die because of it, the fact he still became a criminal after his son died and moving to New Mexico, the Samaritan that died because of Mike's trying to get revenge from Hector for threatening his family, working for corrupt people like Gus, and killing Werner. I feel like these actions could be overlooked because they made Mike a likeable guy. Unlike Joel, they made him a likeable guy without giving much context of how bad he really is. Sure, maybe Joel killing people in the game is brutal, but at the same time, its the apocalypse where people mental state is bad and its either him or them. Now about the death part, Joel's death isn't great because it was never planned before hand when Joel killed "Abby Father" which I will protest because in the original game, the doctor had a more darker skin tone while part 2 he was white. So there was never even planned for a revenge plot or even second part and is there to be convenient for the plot to have a reason that Abby wanted to kill Joel. Unlike Joel's death, Mike's death felt more fleshed out. We see Mike very much despise of Walt and pretty much fueled Walt's hatred towards him. We can even see where Walt gets angry seeing Jesse and Mike shaking hands. When Walt shot Mike, we saw hints of Walt not liking Mike, so him shooting him isn't out of place and give us even more a reason to hate Walt without making me hate the writing. Overall, there's a good way to kill a good character and a bad way to kill a good character, and last of us part 2 didn't kill Joel the best way possible.
I’ll agree with you that when comparing the storytelling in TLOU2 to Breaking Bad, there’s basically no competition. Breaking Bad just felt so genuine and it seemed like everything was planned out from the beginning even though I know that wasn’t the case. However, with TLOU it’s very obvious. I highly doubt they ever thought there would be a sequel and that’s why they didn’t build up the doctor at all. On the surface, it does feel like they were grasping at straws to find something to spin-off for the second story. Regardless, I feel sharing the perspective of someone close to a minor character from the first game is an interesting story concept. Like, when I played the first game, I didn’t think twice about killing that doctor and I’m sure many people felt the same way. So having his death be the catalyst of the second game was an interesting choice, despite it being very clear they had not planned that in advance. Could they have done Joel’s death differently? Absolutely. They could’ve made the whole story different, but regardless of their decision, they didn’t have much to work with for a sequel. Whereas, Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul just managed to pick up all the right threads. I won’t argue with you that TLOU2 is superior to BB cause it’s definitely not. But that’s a great point you made and thank you for watching!
@ryan-jamison ofc, while not a video I'm gonna agree on unfortunately, I'm sure other people can find your points interesting and well thought out.
*sigh* we still doing the "they changed the doctor's race"!! Nonsense??
The doctor is played by the same guy in both games: a white actor called Derek Phillips.
The PS3 wasn't known for its great lighting effects. ND devs had to squeeze digital water out of stone to make it look as good as it does. Even then, multiple times Joel looks strangely yellow or his skin appears a bit wooden. The lighting just isn't excellent across the board. This is also seen on NPCs.
The doctor NPC is just a default, white NPC who simply isn't well lit, so he appears darker. Look at Joel in that room! He is also not lit all that well himself.
@@SidPhoenix2211 well even it wasn't intentional, my point still stands at a (in my opinion) not a good revenge story.
Yap trap (I’m still going to read it)
The first person to let go was Abby when she let both Ellie and Dina live after Ellie killed the love of her life and all her friends. Then she helped Ellie get out of the island when Ellie cut her down. Abby moved on way before Ellie.
This series is actually about the Israeli Palestinian conflict. Interesting time to post this.
But this entire series is very much about that conflict. I'm not sure what politics you are thinking about, but there you go.
I was thinking the same thing prior to posting the video. I wrote this script months back, before the Israel-Hamas war erupted, so I was thinking more generally about everything that's happening in the world. But I do know Druckmann is Israeli and that has certainly influenced his work in this series and others.
I think the Last of Us Part 2 and The Walking Dead have the exact same issue. Major spoilers for both but they both have a character (that the audience likes) get horribly killed, and then it just continues on, often focusing on the character that causes the horrible outcome. I don't believe Joel's death was an issue itself, but being forced to play as Abby after I just wanted to see how Ellie was, was brutal. The game decided to drag out Abby's bit and it felt dreadful. I wonder if the third game will do something interesting to make a re-playthrough of the series feel better. I'm also hopeful for the TV show for Part 2, as my expectations are set very low because of the game, it might surprise me lol
The main reason I dislike the game is how they handled the death of characters and how it impacts others, I know that might sound like the main plot but I don't mean only the death of Joel or Abby's father, but it starts from there, is like TLOU2 affects part 1 for the path the writers choose, we make our way killing minor characters and some irrelevant enemies, and in the end we kill a nameless character and it causes the events of part 2, I can kind of accept that as it can make sense, still, let's face it, those are just npcs within the game and there were probably no plans to go deeper into those characters... but in the world they present, those are people just like the character we play as, it doesn't sound like a bad idea, the problem is that it gets very inconsistent towards the end and it gets worse if you put some thought to what happens during both games... Apparently, some deaths matter and some don't, we get a scene were Ellie feels guilty for killing in self defense but no mention to the dozen we got rid of to get there, that happens several times and it just doesn't feel right because of what started TLOU2. I probably wouldn't care if they had not started the game making something unimportant important lol
I also didn't like how they attempted to make us sympathize with Abby and Jerry, not for wanting us to see it from Abby's perspective but because of how it felt like they were forcing that unto the player, the way they portrayed those sections of the game just felt wrong.
Lastly id say Joel being in the wrong has been common knowledge since the game came out.
You can tell a lot about someone’s emotional maturity by having a discussion with them about Last of Us.😂🤷🏽♂️
The lies is what pissed off everyone, when the leak happend. And this add the stupidification of joel in order to rise abby
That’s true and that’s a topic I wish I had covered in this video. I do think some of the lies were pretty shady, despite the justification of keeping the story under wraps as Druckmann claimed. But despite the misleading trailers, I think everyone knew Joel was gonna die, just maybe not as early as he did.
only 3.9k views is criminal
I am writing my dissertation on this game, and how it’s landscapes relate to our current climate anxiety. This video has motivated me to go and write a few thousand words. Thank you, my friend! This is my favourite channel at the moment. ❤
Thank you, Sam! I’m so glad this video could inspire you and that you’re loving my content. Keep up the great content on your channel as well 🙌🏻🔥
I don’t need to imagine. I did it.
idk i want nothing to do with this IP anymore dont care for Ellie or Abby don't care about naughtydog either
That's fair enough
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Yo yo
What makes the story so bad and ridiculous is the points it tries to make. It’s clearly a story about vengeance and the effects of pursuing/getting it has on the people on around you. Abby gets her revenge against Joel after hunting him down for a long period of time. Ellie is allowed to live but now wants her own revenge on Abby. The whole game she must kill hundreds of ppl, does anything she can to get what she thinks she’s owed, probably ruins hundreds or even thousands of lives through collateral and then at the very end she spares Abby. That is just some bullshit man. Not just from Ellie’s character perspective but also the player. We had to watch Joel getting murdered brutally while we couldn’t do anything and then finally our revenge is at hand and Ellie decides to be “the bigger person”. To me personally, this story isn’t only terrible, it’s insulting. I’m a big believer people can like or not like whatever they want but I myself will never understand how anyone enjoyed this game.
Plus Drukkmann endlessly defending his decision to kill Joel, I absolutely guarantee they won’t do the same thing in the show. Joel won’t die until the end of season 2 mark my words and idk I find that so cowardly by Drukkmann because he was so self righteous about his decision being the right one.
Bro need to get back on his breaking bad videos for views
I know… That drop off is craaaazy 💀
I just hope Ellie gets redeemed somehow.
The game is a hack job, trying to paint joel as the bad guy when he was in every single way the one in the right.
In TLOU 1 the game tried to paint joel as the morally questionable one on the surface, but if you look into it, he's actually justified in all of his actions, read below for context.
The surgeons that were going to operate on ellie were too young to be proper surgeons, at best they would've been in early medical school when the whole thing began, meaning they aren't qualified to do such a complicated surgery.
If you needed more proof on that the game actually tells you that the surgeons actually operated on multiple immune people prior to ellie, and every single one of them ended in a failure, they had no idea how to even do it so they weren't just magically going to with the next child they kill.
The reason they want to find a cure isn't for a noble reason either, they want to find it to basically play god with the world, only handing it out to those they deem worthy, it's a purely selfish motive and they are only looking for fame, so that's double that we've proven how they don't value human life.
Lastly the girl joel shoots at the end, she also knew that ellie was being sent to her death and tried to object to it, but she was forced to back down, she knew that others were killed prior to ellie and knew that ellie would likely die for nothing, but despite that she backed down and eventually helped in trying to stop joel from saving ellie, this is despite her knowing ellie's sacrifice finding a cure is next to 0%.
So basically joel did nothing wrong, the fireflies wouldn't have used a cure for anything other than a firefly ethnostate, and the surgeons have killed immune people before and found no cure, because they were in no way qualified for their work and they had no intention of letting better people take their position.
But TLOU 2 ignores all of that and acts like joel is the bad guy, when that was only the surface narrative of the first game, the nuanced narrative was that joel was actually right, but tlou 2 goes purely surface level detail and it's an absolute hackjob of a game.
That’s a fair argument. I do think they retroactively tried to make Joel look more like the bad guy in the second game by adding Abby’s perspective. While I initially agreed with you that the game was not very strong, I’ve come around to it now and I personally wouldn’t say it’s a hack job. I can see why you feel that way though. That’s why I think a third game could give us the opportunity for redemption. If Ellie lives and she is able to provide some light to the world (not specifically sure how), it would justify Joel’s actions in the first game and honor his legacy. If he had let them perform the surgery, they very well could have killed her and still had no cure. But he chose to save her life, and I think she will do right by him without having to sacrifice herself.
How did they try to paint Joel as a bad guy ? Bad way to open an argument my dude … didn’t even bother to read further after that asinine comment
@SGhosht I think it's not painting Joel as a bad person but more of justifying that Joel's death is deserved because of things he done (being a bandit in the past, brutally killing people, killing the doctor, etc). I'm guessing he's trying to say that those actions like killing fireflies don't make him bad and don't justify his death.
Joel was right to rescue Ellie. The WLF were clowns and Abby's dad may as well have been Dr Mengele.
This does not mean Joel was right to kill everyone in his path to rescue her. Still less does it mean all the other violence he did in his life up till then was right.
And while Joel may have been right to kill Abby's father, Abby was at the same time right to kill Joel. That's revenge - they're both right, and they're both wrong. And this is of course violence in general, such as in war. Both right, and both wrong.
Howdy fellow Red Dead Player :D
I'm a bit confused, because I didn't catch on to some points you where making about the first game. Where does the first game mention that there where other people who where immune (I can only remember Joels lie to Ellie at the end) or that Marlene doesn't believe it either (imho it's made pretty clear she believes in said cure, but struggles with her promise to Ellies mother to protect her, yet decides to save humanity). I also can't remember about the Fireflies goals being talked about after finding the cure?
In my opinion Joel making the very selfish/morally dark grey and understandable choice to save Ellie at the cost of a cure is what made the ending so great in the first place 😊 Black/White stories are boring as f
Tlou2 is the most garbage game ever made in fiction history
That can't be right.
There are thousands of games made by the month, this game looks attentively produced so that in itself makes it so thatit's not the worst game in fiction history.
Personally, I haven't played it, but you have to have objective or well thought out reasons and justifications to declare something is 'the worst of all time'.
@@ChocolateChipcookiie Tlou2 is by far the most piece of shit ever made to fiction imagine one of the fiction’s most well written character not only dying uncharacteristically way possible but laughable and stupidest way too and imagine his daughter the one who he chose her instead of saving the world, she forgiving her father’s murderer not only stupidest possible reason ever made but the most laughable because by then she genocided at least 500 families just to say revenge is bad at the end tlou2 is the most dog shit game ever created
the game literally rushed and made the most dumb scenario to kill joel they literally rushed joel to die in the first 20 minutes of the game in literally the worst way possible this guy survived for 20 years survived many ambushes killed hordes of infected killed lots of men wiped out hospital full of soldiers and then we see him rescue someone and he doesn’t ask what the hell are you doing in this blizzard or who are you or even what is your name in the intro he told tommy what he has done in firefly hospital to save his step daughter ellie and when he sees abby i think he has dementia because he forgor someone might come after him after that hospital massacre and then he literally accepts the invitation to go to that stranger’s house knowing it’s full of other strangers he don’t know about and don’t try to say “he had no choice 🤓” “they were surrounded”🤓 it seems like ever since he moved here he was still on patrol because he is paranoid and hes been doing this for years and people thinking that this is the first time they were surrounded by a horde in a blizzard which is likely happens in jackson but in game they want us to believe they had no choice but to go to some house in somewhere which for some reason the house is well tidy but not captured by jackson people they could go back to jackson horses are faster than infected and it’s a blizzard infected will lost them anyway and they have walls a fucking base they can take down the horde but anyway they go there and looks like there was only 10 infected caught up to the horses which are from the forest not from that place they were surrounded looks like they have evaded them and then they go in not a single paranoia and holstering their backpack on their horse like “we won’t need it anyway???????” And not grabbing their pistol they are all relaxed with 10 strangers in the room surrounding them tommy is so relaxed he asks for towels while bending over to a counted joel goes middle of the room and tells them his name like i said i think he has dementia or garbage writing and then he be surprised “y’all seem like you’ve heard of us or something.” Bro are you fucking serious like no shit and
then abby has dementia too because “people” call “her” a “good person” or “best character ever” because she would never kill anyone without mercy right? But joel saves abby and abby doesn’t even show mercy because “he killed my father oh no”
joel had to kill his father they were going to kill his daughter and he pulled a knife on him and then we see ellie having sex while joel is being murdered and she goes there and we see abby changed clothes your “good person” has beat that old man to death so much she even had time to changed clothes she enjoyed every second and she still do it while ellie who is her daughter begging, literally begging to “her” to stop and then tell pull like how john wick’s dog’s murderers did, put his corpse there and she wakes up and sees his brains in the floor. Did they really said “oh yes fans will love this game?” I literally just explained how the game is garbage of one scene of the game I didn’t even start
It’s extremely unrealistic that she found steroids, so much protein and calories to be like 100 kg bulk and fat in a fucking 25 year old apocalypse why would you based off her from a steroid user woman instead of like normal shaped woman in a fucking 25 year old apocalypse oh and not to mention that being that bulk is possible with genetics of her father who he isn’t even muscular and abby is a “woman” yeah sure looks so much like his father when daughters usually look like their father oh and you realized “she” is the literally the most muscular human in the entire world of apocalypse?? What was she the first one to find and know how to use gym gears before anyone at least in wlf base? Yeah stfu
or you trolling or are you serious? Joel, this man survived dozens of ambushes by being paranoid, strong and smart remember when ellie and joel first met the hunters he said oh he ain’t rven hurt? Or remember how paranoid and smart he was saying that youd just come after her and he killed marlene to set up loose ends? He took zero risks but now in this woke piece of shit they tell their name to some stranger out in the blizzard completely trusting that transgender yet thinking it is a VERY good idea to go to someones house knowing there are much more people there yet when they go there they actually thought they were just a gonna get out of there no problem because they wouldn’t try to do something to them in this 25 year old apocalypse where people kill each other for food yet being too relaxed that they even put their backpacks on their horse and tommy saying yall got towels or anything and joel just wanders in the middle of the room and says his name and then gets surprised saying yall seem like youve heard of us or something like no shit not even having his pistol on his hand and literally died the most stupid way possible tlou2 is truly the worst game of all time in fiction history yet you sheep praise this piece of shit game because they added prone and dodge button after 7 years of waiting
so you are saying this man who survived by 25 years in this hell apocalypse by being paranoid and smart who evaded multiple ambushes, armies and zombie hordes all by himself, and AFTER killing every fucking armed soldiers in a hospital all by himself after he just woke up killed literally everyone and their leader all though he told that to his brother what he has done, thinking oh well they are probably not after me and wouldn’t know who i am because they heard my name so much they put nicknames on me like the smuggler joel miller? Oh yeah in probably fine telling my name to some transgender bodybuilder all by himself in some middle of the blizzard and middle of zombie hordes who has said that he has friends hiding in some mansion near to our home? Hmmm yeah must be our neighbors who we knew what house were they even holes up even confirmed by tommy? Oh yeah they are probably just feeling generous to offer us some tea and be on our way where people kill each pther for starvation, rape defenseless people to at least have a bit fun in this hopeless survival of the world? Oh yeah we are probably gonna be fine although at least in my journey with ellie everyone who saw us tried to shoot to kill us when hunters tried to trick is or followed us to the university or the mall where i was wounded or even some resort? Just to kill us? Yeah we are fine
imagine forgiving your father’s murderer for no reason at all you wouldn’t know because you don’t have a father that loves you (most likely) even you tlou2 fans don’t know “the real meaning” of the story some of yall say it’s about forgiveness i say oh so forgiving your father’s murderer who loves you so much that he literally sacrificed the world for you, for no reason? And yall sometimes say it’s about revenge i say oh so revenge is bad unless you are some npc’s transgender bodybuilder child (abby) and not ellie or you say it’s about some other dumb shit you woke mentally ill people keep on defending this piece of shit story
it is the worst game ever made this game has literally worst characters ever existed possibly the worst pacing and they cutted out multiplayer with worst ending ever made and killing off one of the greatest character in extremely dumb way and they added just 2 new gameplay mechanics that was in gaming since 2004 lying in grass was started in metal gear solid 3 dodging was literally in every third person games jumping to someone was in uncharted 3/4 and hiding in bushes was in uncharted 4 they added nothing to the game and made the skill tree even worse literally all the guns are from tlou1 and it’s multiplayer’s dlc guns they only added shooting someone’s knee that makes them kneel that was in metal gear solid 2 2001 they cutted out skins on character’s that was in uncharted 1 all the way to tlou1
braindead people:
“The story is about revenge is bad.”
Oh but abby can have his revenge but ellie can’t?”
“Oh i mean the story is about forgiveness.”
Oh so you’d forgive your father’s murderer for literally no reason at all? The one who loved you so much he sacrificed the world for you?
Imagine this:
Someone breaks into your house kills your father who was protecting you and you pick up a gun but let him go for literally no reason and your mom asks why didn’t you kill that guy??? He murdered your father
You: “you see, there is a deeper meaning to this…….” You tlou2 fans are extremely braindead it’s unbelievable if you’re serious
Are you tlou2 fans this braindead? Are there any tlou2 fan he is at least smarter than a 12 yo?
@@ChocolateChipcookiiebro made another comment venting all his hate for the game lol like get a life and move on.