Fantastic!! I think he's the most accomplished, knowledgeable and accurate nutrition scientist in the business. His comments on Ancel Keys and the French paradox are the best I've ever heard. 👏
Harvard health expert Dr. Walter Willett admitted in the 1980's he told his patients to use margarine and shortening because it was heart healthy and had no cholesterol or animal fats. He forgot to tell them it was made from rancid deodorized partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil which was loaded with trans fats which destroyed humans health. Harvard health expert Dr. Fredrick J. Stare said soda and other sugary foods were a good healthy snack and other things that destroyed the health of humanity.
Willett knew Fred Kummerow in the 1970's but never paid any attention to him about cheap, rancid deodorized trans fats because he sized up Kummerow as a small, non money hungry, non attention getting, non loud mouthed, behind the scenes nobody.
This is my favourite podcast, here are some reasons why: Simon listens well; asks insightful questions that amplify the key message; makes clear the ‘so what can I do practically in my life now to incorporate this knowledge’; is unafraid of echo chamber conversations - open to difference whilst still looking for common ground; skilfully challenges perspectives not informed in science. As a person working so hard to deal with a number of health issues, this clarity helps me to find several helpful starting points. Many thanks. Looking forward to arthritis and it’s role in inflammation pathways and comorbidities - and most importantly ways forward! Keep up this brilliant work!
His explanation of how epidemiological studies can be made more methodologically sound and therefore more meaningful was enlightening. The entire conversation felt like it deserved another 4 or 5 hours for deep dives into the various topics covered. Dr. Willett's subject expertise and his history in the field were a real treat.
Just in time, after I've finished reading "Eat, Drink and Be Healthy" few days ago with time I'm appreciating Dr Walter Willett knowledge more and more, and he has become essential part of my foundational nutritional knowledge. Happy birthday Dr Willet and Simon, thank you so much
Dr. Willet is a true font of invaluable nutritional insights. The long-term nurses' eating studies have been invaluable. I most admire him for emphasizing that the world needs to aim for a low impact on the climate crisis when making food choices. I agree that keeping dairy products use down and red meat use as low as possible will benefit our climate the most. He really makes me pause when he says that driving down cholesterol too low may create a greater risk for hemorrhagic stroke, as in Japan!? I will need to look into this, as I avoid all meat, dairy, and eggs to keep away from saturated fats. If too little cholesterol may increase bleeding stroke risk, I may have to check into this. Dietary issues are indeed complex!
Happy birthday to Dr. Walter Willet, and thanks for having him on, such a knowledgeable man. Edit: Oh, just found out it's also Simon's birthday, so happy birthday to both of you!
Amazing interview - Dr. Walter Willett is incredibly knowledgeable and articulate, and is able to explain at any detail needed and wisely about any nutritional area - a brilliant and wide ranging discussion and full of very wise words indeed - thank you Simon and Walter for such an incredible episode - and happy birthday to you both tomorrow! I really hope I’m half as sharp and articulate at 78 years as Dr. Willett.
Simon - love your shows. Listen to all of them. Just exceptional work and research! Kudos to you and your team. Learn so much from your guests. Important information. Never regret spending time listening and educating myself ❤
Thanks for the information! I'm especially grateful for the concerns Dr. Willett brought up about Climate Change and the effects of food choices on the environment.
Dr. Willet is a true font of invaluable nutritional insights. The long-term nurses' eating studies have been invaluable. I most admire him for emphasizing that the world needs to aim for a low impact on the climate crisis when making food choices. I agree that keeping dairy products use down and red meat use as low as possible will benefit our climate the most. He really makes me pause when he says that driving down cholesterol too low may create a greater risk for hemorrhagic stroke, as in Japan!? I will need to look into this, as I avoid all meat, dairy, and eggs to keep away from saturated fats. If too little cholesterol may increase bleeding stroke risk, I may have to check into this. Dietary issues are indeed complex!
Enjoying the channel. I found out last Friday that my cholesterol total cholesterol is 361. I hv lower blood pressure. Almost a yr ago I went vegan. Mostly vegan. They put me on a statin 10mg and Coq10 100mg I’m hitting the gym daily hoping for better results in 6 months. Thanks for the education.
Happy birthday to Dr. Walter Willet, and thanks for having him on, such a knowledgeable man. Edit: Oh, just found out it's also Simon's birthday, so happy birthday to both of you!
Dear Simon, you did it again! This was a fantastic interview with Dr Willett. Thank you for being such a great communicator in the crazy space of social media. One thing I still struggle is this idea of the protein -quality and quantity. I know Dr Willett seems to have a balances approach considering the social and environmental impact of the animal industry.Perhaps we can revisit the various argument at one point? I was WFPB for 5 years, but ended up not doing so well ( became anemic) and so I have reintroduced small portions of animal foods and I am doing better. I am a female in the over 55 age group and everywhere I turn I am bombarded with "eat more protein, anabolic resistance, sarcopenia". Even at my little weight of 53kg (169cm height) I am supposed to have about 75-100 gm a day if not more! I do not think I ever ate that much protein in my entire life. The only way I can reach some days those values are with protein shakes/ snacks. I think this is crazy as they must be in the ultra processed food categories. I have also not heard a clear explanation why should I have bulky muscles rather than a lean and agile body able to react quickly to obstacles. Another consideration: why should I consume more and more protein as I get older and closer to death and subtract protein to the young and growing population? Not to mention the social impact with regard under and malnourished parts of the world. Sorry, I know this is a lot but at least I hope I start getting some clarity. Thanks for all you do!
Loved this episode. So many questions answered. And Simon, the way you orchestrated and directed your discussion with Dr Willett was masterful. Thank you so much.
@1:16:25 besides the question about fats, a question that was not asked about dairy is about calcium and protein (and added vitamin D), as well as other micro-nutrients. (vegetarians can consume dairy if desired.) fermented dairy like yogurt and some cheeses can aid in digestion from probiotics.
Wonderful podcast and guest. I like the way he pulled out the nuances in his studies as well as others to explain how real research works. I would like to have heard about the effects increased serving sizes have had on the American Public.
Wonderful talk and very insightful. This is my first time listening to Simon Hill. I was very impressed with his intelligent questions and how he concisely summed up the main points at the end. I'm so grateful to Dr. Willett's wealth of knowledge and years of experience. I do have a question about soy being recommended as a good plant protein source. It's been my understanding, though could be incorrect, that most soy is genetical modified these days. Has genetically modified foods been studied for longterm affects on human health?
Fantastic interview. What struck me (and commonsensical to boot) is that you cannot have a randomized control trial to study/control for every little thing. A bit like "perfection is the enemy of the good": good conclusions can be derived from a good but not perfect study. If one is always insisting on poking holes in a conclusion based on good evidence (v. specious hypotheses), one can be putting their health at risk. (Do I really want to wait around for a perfect study that tells me that eating a full on carnivore diet is not going to give me colon-rectal cancer, a heart attack or stroke?) The same arguments infiltrate any subject. The same sort of rabble rousers infiltrate everything--to include dog nutrition. There are those that insist that dogs are full carnivores and that is all that they should be fed--without exception. It is their "ancestral" diet. Anyone who has owned a dog in the country, knows that their dog would as soon grub about in your vegetable garden and berry patch as chase down a rabbit. They are omnivores. However, most agree that a whole food diet for a dog is better than the ultra-processed stuff that is found in kibble. Did you know? You can even feed your dog a vegetarian diet. Just as with humans, any diet for your animal must contain and/or be supplemented for species-specific essential vitamins, nutrients. And just as with humans, failure to do so can cause real harm.
Thanks Walter. I am Mark Bura from Tanzania. I am a great fan of your approaches and I am now more of flexitarian than vegetarian. How often can one eat red meat to be safe from Alzheimer or cancer of the colon.
Just calming; 1,284 publications, 335,913 citations, senior professor of both medicine and nutrition at Harvard, you might as well call him literally the top guy in the field, and when asked why butter is worse than cheese for you it's just "I'm not really sure". Awesome. Nice to hear in the car salesman era.
Amazing content here. It’s really interesting to think about the evolution of the field. Ancel Keys was limited by the tools of his time and drew broad conclusions based on relatively smaller (large for his time) studies and whole country data. Walter Willett did these incredible, large cohort studies over time to get much better data about how good choices affect health consequences. The next generation will hopefully be able to make huge progress on personalized nutrition as we learn that the right nutrition approach very likely varies based on an individual person’s biology.
By eliminating confounding issues, such as social economic classification, one could be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. One could find that non nutritional issues were as important as the nutritional ones. seems Dr. Willet is astute enough to reconize this.
On the theme of 'Compared to what...?', it would be interesting to compare the results of this gentleman's studies, to that of say, Dr Michael Greger's or Dr Neal Barnard's (PCRM), as well as their methods of research.
Great podcasts. I am learning every day, driving my car to work, listening. You and your guest have the best Information and i hope the words spread more and more throughout this world in the same unprejudiced way to help more people. Happy birthday !
Just an idea regardig seed oils why in some cases they might be harmful: Won't some fractions of the polyunsaturated fats be converted to transfats when you fry/cook with them?
@@TheProofWithSimonHillThen I am asking myself whats the difference between heating once or multiple times. Probably the amount of created trans fats only, which means even 1x heating too high creates some trans fats. I have googled a bit. PUFAs can be transformed to trans fats at around 130° C already. A pan easily can reach 200+°C. Wow, no wonder why ultra processed food is so terribly bad. Next to sugar, round up polluted wheat also trans fats from seed oils. 🤮
Very good talk! How do u replace beef and chicken as primary protein sources with nuts and legumes DAILY?? Hard to envision getting 0.7 gram per pound of protein from lugumes...every day...
Interesting what he said about some vegetables possibly being harmful. Any rough clue on which those may be compared to which would be better? He did mention corn and peas possibly being not good in certain amounts. I am also shocked that he doesn’t seem that favorable of artificial sweeteners??! Or am I misunderstanding him? I have a lot of them and natural sweeteners such as stevia..
@@MB10097 I could kinda see that, but more so because they lack the antioxidant power other potatoes or plant carbs may have, such as sweet potato or black beans. So one would be eating an inferior food (white potatoes) to something that could be a better replacement (purple or orange sweet potatoes).
Maybe one of the things about corn is its lack of bioavailability in certain key nutrients, so unless you prepare it in the way meso Americans do (nixtamalization) you can't rely on it as a staple crop.
Many years ago, Joel Fuhrman suggested that a diet low in fat / cholesterol should also be low in added salt for that very reason of hemorrhagic stroke.
@@carinaekstrom1 Well, he suggests low salt intake period. Also a diet with moderate fat but from whole foods instead of oil. But I guess it is of extra concern if cholesterol is low. And of course you don't want to trade risk of hemorrhagic stroke for the problems with having higher cholesterol. I believe that Joel will be a guest on Simon's podcast in the near future, so that will be a must listen.
@@StephenMarkTurner Very few plant based or even exclusively plant eating people will get their cholesterol levels extremely low. That happens mostly on statins. And if someone doesn't have a problem with blood pressure, moderate salt intake should not be a problem. What I call moderate might be low for someone on SAD. Yes, Joel Fuhrman is interesting.
Dear Simon, now that you are in Harvard, it would be great if you can interview Nicholas Norwitz about the lipid energy model he has developed together with David Feldman and others. I'm very interested to see them explaining how they think CVD is developed in the general population (the 95% of the population that is metabolically ill). And also interesting to see them explaining how they think CVD will not develop in the 5% of the population (metabolically healthy and flexible) while following a low carb high fat diet. And also what they think will happen to a metabolically ill person that starts a low carb high fat diet and mantains it for many years. Do they think this person will avoid CVD development? Many thanks.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill I know you are skeptical. Dave is happy to talk to skepticals too. All he wants is to learn from you guys. We all could learn a lot while you and him expose their points of view in a friendly chat. Once you said not wanting your show to become an echoe chamber, but it still is. Very interesting I have to admit (I honestly reviewed it with 5 stars), but still has lots of echoe.
You can get Omega 6 fats from whole and minimally processed foods such as nuts and seeds instead of chemically processed seed oils. If you saw these chemicals on a food label would you purchase the food and eat it or recommend it. Also there are minimally processed oils such as olive and avocado that are safe. Simon it seems you are so focused on eliminating saturated fat that you don't seem concerned what is substituted. I heard you say butter his highly processed but you don't think seed oils are highly processed?
Can you get enough Omega 3 and Omega 6 just from plants? And are nuts and seeds necessary to include, even as Whole Foods, in the diet to get enough essential oils?
His comments about extremely-low cholesterol being associated with higher risk of hemorrhagic stroke were surprising. Are you sure that's not just reverse causality?
I’ve been vegan for 7 years and still have health issues connected to blood sugar, I’ve been surfing the depths of the internet recently and now this interview, hoping to find the optimal macros to stabilize blood sugar and improve insulin resistance, but there’s so much contradicting information, can somebody tell me how much carbs, fat and protein am I supposed to eat for optimal blood sugar control?
The two ESSENTIAL nutrients for humans to thrive are Fatty acids and protein,both found in the animal kingdom preferably ruminant,seafood.Not complicated , easy and delicious . Includes Eggs ,cheese ,butter . Eating this way will avoid obesity,diabetes cardio vascular disease ,gut issues ,arthritis. It will keep metabolism healthy. Oils are processed , ok a little poison won’t kill you . 😊Sometimes common sense can be helpful. Before it goes in your mouth ask is it an ESSENTIAL nutrient .An extra bonus deliciousness and satiating .😋💃🏽
While stating that dairy consumption is not necessary for optimal health, it was interesting that this gentleman still consumes dairy himself. While mentioning sustainability issues, he completely ignored, in this interview at least, the violation of animal rights and exploitation of animals associated with this industry.
I'm on your side. But there are loads of people who couldn't give a rat's tiny bottom. Sometimes appealing to human health based on study alone is a step in the right direction. Think about colleagues of his and what they do in animal experiments. They live in a human centric culture.
The conversation is always limited in a way that matters to humans, so it’s human health and environmental health as it affects human survival. It’s sad that (non-human) animal life is not considered important, but I remain hopeful, since the environmental effects of the diet used to also be ignored.
I buy organic whole milk, and I've reduced my meat consumption to nothing. That's as close as I'll ever get to avoiding animal cruelty. If you spend too much time focusing on any amount of animal cruelty, you'll find hypocrisy everywhere. For example, is there money in your bank account? Why not donate that money to an animal shelter? You're better off not taking a dogmatic stance on animal cruelty anyway, because you're just going to cause your opposition to dig in deeper. The most radical vegans certainly helped fuel the carnivore diet that is now rampant. Look up the diagram labeled "the physics of carnist veganism" on Google. When your strategy to change the behaviors of others is pure criticism, it doesn't actually help achieve your goal. You're attaching behaviors to the individual, and you're overlooking the much more nuanced reality that we live in. In *reality,* people's behaviors are a product of themselves *and* their environment. You wouldn't criticize a homeless man for eating chicken (or at least I hope not). This is ultimately no different than an affluent person eating chicken. In both cases, neither person has acquired the necessary stimulus from their environment to remove their consumption of chicken. If you assume everyone is just like you and you attack those who aren't, then again, they're just going to dig in deeper. The better strategy for your end goal of reducing animal cruelty is to avoid criticizing and prodding into people's lifestyles and simply ask questions that challenge the margins of their beliefs. This is what allows you to actually change someone's mind. In this particular case, the first questions you should ask may have nothing to do with animal cruelty at all. You also can't expect to complete this process in one conversation. It is much better to plant a thought-provoking "seed" in their head and let it settle. If you become the person that learns how to ask the right questions, you become a very, very powerful force for good. But if you only criticize people, then you literally make the problems worse most of the time.
Sorry to say that soya oil and canola e are unhealthy as they are processed industrial oils, cow milk and it’s products are inflammatory but he did not mention casein one which can not be digested, lactose intolerance,organic soya milk yogurt is great as well as Tofu .
How could Dr. Willett insist that driving LDL down “too low” increases stroke risk then refuse to indicate a level that he considers to be too low? I’m sure he is aware that some doctors believe that lowering LDL cholesterol to below 30 significantly minimizes the risk of a cardiovascular event. Is reducing LDL to 30 what he would think of as getting it too low?
I’m not convinced it’s causal. What would be the mechanism? How could physiological ApoB levels be detrimental? I’d like to see him discuss this with Thomas Dayspring.
@@reason3581what the purpose of calling it physiological? As far as I understand, having “as low as possible” LDL or ApoB levels is desirable for someone who has had high LDL or ApoB for a big part of his life and probably has other risk factors as well.
They take a point every four years. And then they analyze to decimal places. Calibration doesn’t help unreliable data. But he never addressed my evidence that red meat consumption went down substantially in the last fifty years during which time there was a dramatic increase int he incidence of type 2 diabetes.
@RichardFeinman-yf7lx I had 2 great grandparents who lived 100 years on healthy grains. I had a single grandparent who died at young age 73 of colon cancer , he ate mostly meat.
Thank you so much for this wonderful video, so helpful and interesting! I mainly follow the Mediterranean diet, but in autumn and winter I love to eat a red meat stew…..with a lot of veggies 👍🏼♥️
So I'm really interested in health and longevity, sustainability, and came to appreciate the importance of avoiding animals foods due to the harmful practices of factory farming. Gave up alcohol and animal products at the beginning of COVID. Basically WFPB. I'd say I was challenged for about a month, then everything became pretty routine. Is Dr. Willett suggesting that a Vegan diet is less healthy than a Mediterranean Diet due to the positive health data out of Greece? Say it ain't so Simon! Oh, and Happy Birthday!
I am also WFPB however I don't equate this with being Vegan as the latter "allows" for unlimited quantities of overly-processed and junk foods (not suggesting all Vegan's eat this way). Maybe this is what he was referring to.
Usually, health authorities are more worried about people's lack of knowledge to make a vegan diet work, or by the difficulty of adhering to a healthy vegan diet in our unhealthy food environments.
In the US overall per capita meat consumption (excluding fish) has gone up a bit, and fish per capita consumption has gone up with 75% according to "Our world in data".
Willet said: "Only 5% of US people eat as the dietary guidelines.". So, clearly dietary guidelines are not serving their "intended" purpose. But their "de facto" purpose is clear: they serve food industry to wash their face and claim that their products are "somehow" fitted into the guidelines. I'm reading them now and it's clearly stated that there is 15% room in your diet for rubbish. But it's not just that, but the "non-rubish" industrial food fits too (like our beloved Up&Go, with the many US equivalences). So, if the guidelines are working only for the food industry, and if the industry is the culprit of the terrible health of US population (only 5% are metabolically healthy), then: Why upgrade the effort and create GLOBAL dietary guidelines (EAT-Lancet)? My only guess is: to serve for the same: wash the face of the food industry at the global level. By the way, according to their calculations, I (male 51yo, 71kg, 179cm, active) should be eating 2800 Calories per day. And from those 2800 calories, 133g of animal food (meats, poultry, eggs), which is around 44g of animal protein per day. Which looks bad for me because I will need ~70 grams of protein from other sources not as dense (assuming 1.6g/kg of protein, as Don Layman recommends). So yes, I'm not eating as the guidelines suggest neither, I think guidelines pattern may hurt my health, starting from lack of protein. So, I'm eating the foods in their healthy 85% (nothing from their allowed 15% of rubbish), only whole and fresh, but with different proportions and in an omnivore pattern. What is the opinion of "The Proof" about the protein suggested intake of the US dietary guidelines? What is the protein suggested intake by "The Proof"?
It's still the animal products and ultra processed foods. Might be able to get away with eating AP but that's not saying much. Can drink alcohol and get away with it. Smoke even. Optimum Nutritional Recommendations has to be what Dr. Greger research shows: whole food plant based diet without salt oil or sugar, daily exercise, sleep, less stress etc
Those 2 oils (not 1st press EVOO olive) are cheap, rancid and deodorized to have no odor or taste so the unsuspecting public intuition is destroyed and they consume much more than they realize since their taste buds are shut down and with too much consumption their health is destroyed. If they had 100 - 200 calories of butter cookies with 4 plain real ingredients, their intuition would feel the thick butter and gunk in their throat and their intuition would tell them they should stop at that point. This would work the same with any ancestral 1 single ingredient type of fat.
Isn’t all oils whether it’s vegetable or canola, coconut or avocado oil still gonna block the arteries that’s my understanding from all the so-called experts ? Now I’m confused
So, what is it about red meat that makes it unhealthy? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say exactly. Is it the saturated fat, the heme iron, or something else? If white meat is healthier, then I guess it’s not saturated fat because chicken has saturated fat too. So what is it with red meat? I’ve never been much of a meat eater because I genuinely don’t care for it - never have. But the “why” about red meat has always wondered me.
It's because if you are in perfect health, no one can sell you any medicine, vitamins supplements or surgeries. Dr. Leila Denmark said the best protein is from eggs, lean meat and black eyed peas, but at 5 feet tall and 100 lbs what was the portion size, 2 ounces?
Digesting red meat is taxing on your liver. If you are eating red meat in a meal with more than 25 grams of protein total often, it will impact your liver. Your liver regulates cholesterol and some degree blood sugar
A big part of it is that meat has no fiber. Humans are built to eat foods with fiber. Meat functions almost like refined junk foods in the human body. It has some nutrients, but some are the wrong types for humans. Heme iron and retinol, for example. Too much saturated fat. And meat has no phytonutrients. It may also be something about the Neu5Gc molecule that humans are not supposed to have in their bodies. It's probably a combination of things, some of which we haven't discovered yet.
I'm interested in the idea I see out there about (seed/vegetable) oils being very calorically dense and being a contributor to weight gain and obesity. Is it better to consume our plant-based fats from the whole food (the nuts, olives and seeds) versus in processed oils? Also are commercially made seed/vegetable oils worse than expeller-pressed oils?
Fantastic!! I think he's the most accomplished, knowledgeable and accurate nutrition scientist in the business. His comments on Ancel Keys and the French paradox are the best I've ever heard. 👏
Harvard health expert Dr. Walter Willett admitted in the 1980's he told his patients to use margarine and shortening because it was heart healthy and had no cholesterol or animal fats. He forgot to tell them it was made from rancid deodorized partially hydrogenated cottonseed oil which was loaded with trans fats which destroyed humans health. Harvard health expert Dr. Fredrick J. Stare said soda and other sugary foods were a good healthy snack and other things that destroyed the health of humanity.
Willett knew Fred Kummerow in the 1970's but never paid any attention to him about cheap, rancid deodorized trans fats because he sized up Kummerow as a small, non money hungry, non attention getting, non loud mouthed, behind the scenes nobody.
Funny thing: And it was Chris from PlantChompers who came in my my mind when he mentioned Ancel Keys.. haha 🤭 🍌
BTW, Ancel Keys work probably has killed and ruined the health of more people than Hitler, Stalin and Mao combined, and you listen to this garbage?
You my friend are the guru
This is my favourite podcast, here are some reasons why: Simon listens well; asks insightful questions that amplify the key message; makes clear the ‘so what can I do practically in my life now to incorporate this knowledge’; is unafraid of echo chamber conversations - open to difference whilst still looking for common ground; skilfully challenges perspectives not informed in science. As a person working so hard to deal with a number of health issues, this clarity helps me to find several helpful starting points. Many thanks. Looking forward to arthritis and it’s role in inflammation pathways and comorbidities - and most importantly ways forward! Keep up this brilliant work!
His explanation of how epidemiological studies can be made more methodologically sound and therefore more meaningful was enlightening. The entire conversation felt like it deserved another 4 or 5 hours for deep dives into the various topics covered. Dr. Willett's subject expertise and his history in the field were a real treat.
Simon, kudos on your brilliant selection of guests. I'm truly grateful to have access to such conversations. Thank you.
What a monumental figure in the nutrition World, thank you for this Simon!
Just in time, after I've finished reading "Eat, Drink and Be Healthy" few days ago
with time I'm appreciating Dr Walter Willett knowledge more and more, and he has become essential part of my foundational nutritional knowledge.
Happy birthday Dr Willet and Simon,
thank you so much
Dr. Willet is a true font of invaluable nutritional insights. The long-term nurses' eating studies have been invaluable. I most admire him for emphasizing that the world needs to aim for a low impact on the climate crisis when making food choices. I agree that keeping dairy products use down and red meat use as low as possible will benefit our climate the most. He really makes me pause when he says that driving down cholesterol too low may create a greater risk for hemorrhagic stroke, as in Japan!? I will need to look into this, as I avoid all meat, dairy, and eggs to keep away from saturated fats. If too little cholesterol may increase bleeding stroke risk, I may have to check into this. Dietary issues are indeed complex!
Happy birthday to Dr. Walter Willet, and thanks for having him on, such a knowledgeable man. Edit: Oh, just found out it's also Simon's birthday, so happy birthday to both of you!
Amazing interview - Dr. Walter Willett is incredibly knowledgeable and articulate, and is able to explain at any detail needed and wisely about any nutritional area - a brilliant and wide ranging discussion and full of very wise words indeed - thank you Simon and Walter for such an incredible episode - and happy birthday to you both tomorrow! I really hope I’m half as sharp and articulate at 78 years as Dr. Willett.
This was a great episode Simon. You very clearly respect Walter Willet, as do I, you’re truly a class act in your interview style.
Well done! 👍👍
Simon - love your shows. Listen to all of them. Just exceptional work and research! Kudos to you and your team. Learn so much from your guests. Important information. Never regret spending time listening and educating myself ❤
Thanks for the information! I'm especially grateful for the concerns Dr. Willett brought up about Climate Change and the effects of food choices on the environment.
Dr. Willet is a true font of invaluable nutritional insights. The long-term nurses' eating studies have been invaluable. I most admire him for emphasizing that the world needs to aim for a low impact on the climate crisis when making food choices. I agree that keeping dairy products use down and red meat use as low as possible will benefit our climate the most. He really makes me pause when he says that driving down cholesterol too low may create a greater risk for hemorrhagic stroke, as in Japan!? I will need to look into this, as I avoid all meat, dairy, and eggs to keep away from saturated fats. If too little cholesterol may increase bleeding stroke risk, I may have to check into this. Dietary issues are indeed complex!
Enjoying the channel. I found out last Friday that my cholesterol total cholesterol is 361. I hv lower blood pressure. Almost a yr ago I went vegan. Mostly vegan. They put me on a statin 10mg and Coq10 100mg
I’m hitting the gym daily hoping for better results in 6 months. Thanks for the education.
Happy birthday to Dr. Walter Willet, and thanks for having him on, such a knowledgeable man. Edit: Oh, just found out it's also Simon's birthday, so happy birthday to both of you!
Dear Simon, you did it again! This was a fantastic interview with Dr Willett. Thank you for being such a great communicator in the crazy space of social media. One thing I still struggle is this idea of the protein -quality and quantity. I know Dr Willett seems to have a balances approach considering the social and environmental impact of the animal industry.Perhaps we can revisit the various argument at one point? I was WFPB for 5 years, but ended up not doing so well ( became anemic) and so I have reintroduced small portions of animal foods and I am doing better. I am a female in the over 55 age group and everywhere I turn I am bombarded with "eat more protein, anabolic resistance, sarcopenia". Even at my little weight of 53kg (169cm height) I am supposed to have about 75-100 gm a day if not more! I do not think I ever ate that much protein in my entire life. The only way I can reach some days those values are with protein shakes/ snacks. I think this is crazy as they must be in the ultra processed food categories. I have also not heard a clear explanation why should I have bulky muscles rather than a lean and agile body able to react quickly to obstacles. Another consideration: why should I consume more and more protein as I get older and closer to death and subtract protein to the young and growing population? Not to mention the social impact with regard under and malnourished parts of the world. Sorry, I know this is a lot but at least I hope I start getting some clarity. Thanks for all you do!
It's difficult to believe that Dr. Willett is 79 years old. His skin looks wonderful.
Brillant for someone like me very confused with dietary advice
Loved this episode. So many questions answered. And Simon, the way you orchestrated and directed your discussion with Dr Willett was masterful. Thank you so much.
Dr. Willett is a legend!
Carrot, broccoli, yogurt, kefir, avocado, fish
Until the next study tells us the opposite.
Food quality seems to be the most important message out there.
Quality over quantity.
@1:16:25 besides the question about fats, a question that was not asked about dairy is about calcium and protein (and added vitamin D), as well as other micro-nutrients. (vegetarians can consume dairy if desired.) fermented dairy like yogurt and some cheeses can aid in digestion from probiotics.
Very refreshing view point on nutrition and health, considering how much nonsense is out there in social media, thanks,
Thank you Simon. I always learn something new from your interviews.
I watch this video over and over. Excellent work!
What an enlightening episode, handed to us with excellence. Appreciate your dedication, Simon!
Thank you for this episode. I really hope another episode with Dr. Willet is coming. ✌🏼
Wonderful podcast and guest. I like the way he pulled out the nuances in his studies as well as others to explain how real research works.
I would like to have heard about the effects increased serving sizes have had on the American Public.
Thankyou Simon
Wonderful talk and very insightful. This is my first time listening to Simon Hill. I was very impressed with his intelligent questions and how he concisely summed up the main points at the end. I'm so grateful to Dr. Willett's wealth of knowledge and years of experience. I do have a question about soy being recommended as a good plant protein source. It's been my understanding, though could be incorrect, that most soy is genetical modified these days. Has genetically modified foods been studied for longterm affects on human health?
Fantastic interview. What struck me (and commonsensical to boot) is that you cannot have a randomized control trial to study/control for every little thing. A bit like "perfection is the enemy of the good": good conclusions can be derived from a good but not perfect study. If one is always insisting on poking holes in a conclusion based on good evidence (v. specious hypotheses), one can be putting their health at risk. (Do I really want to wait around for a perfect study that tells me that eating a full on carnivore diet is not going to give me colon-rectal cancer, a heart attack or stroke?)
The same arguments infiltrate any subject. The same sort of rabble rousers infiltrate everything--to include dog nutrition. There are those that insist that dogs are full carnivores and that is all that they should be fed--without exception. It is their "ancestral" diet. Anyone who has owned a dog in the country, knows that their dog would as soon grub about in your vegetable garden and berry patch as chase down a rabbit. They are omnivores. However, most agree that a whole food diet for a dog is better than the ultra-processed stuff that is found in kibble. Did you know? You can even feed your dog a vegetarian diet. Just as with humans, any diet for your animal must contain and/or be supplemented for species-specific essential vitamins, nutrients. And just as with humans, failure to do so can cause real harm.
Outstanding and informative interview with Dr Willett. Thank you so much!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Thanks Walter. I am Mark Bura from Tanzania. I am a great fan of your approaches and I am now more of flexitarian than vegetarian. How often can one eat red meat to be safe from Alzheimer or cancer of the colon.
Just calming; 1,284 publications, 335,913 citations, senior professor of both medicine and nutrition at Harvard, you might as well call him literally the top guy in the field, and when asked why butter is worse than cheese for you it's just "I'm not really sure". Awesome. Nice to hear in the car salesman era.
Amazing content here. It’s really interesting to think about the evolution of the field. Ancel Keys was limited by the tools of his time and drew broad conclusions based on relatively smaller (large for his time) studies and whole country data. Walter Willett did these incredible, large cohort studies over time to get much better data about how good choices affect health consequences. The next generation will hopefully be able to make huge progress on personalized nutrition as we learn that the right nutrition approach very likely varies based on an individual person’s biology.
Great stuff. I'm 60 in 5 days so I hope it's not too late for me and that the damage isn't done already.
Real quality content 👌
Thanks
Rural Chinese (older) ate a diet of 90% white rice did not get cancer so it's easy to conclude carbs are life saving.
Thank you for this conversion and for introducing me to this doctor!
My pleasure!
Really enjoyed this information. Thank you for sharing
By eliminating confounding issues, such as social economic classification, one could be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. One could find that non nutritional issues were as important as the nutritional ones.
seems Dr. Willet is astute enough to reconize this.
On the theme of 'Compared to what...?', it would be interesting to compare the results of this gentleman's studies, to that of say, Dr Michael Greger's or Dr Neal Barnard's (PCRM), as well as their methods of research.
Dr. Michael Greger and Dr. Neal Barnard are basically on the same page as Dr. Walter Willet.
Great podcasts. I am learning every day, driving my car to work, listening.
You and your guest have the best Information and i hope the words spread more and more throughout this world in the same unprejudiced way to help more people.
Happy birthday !
Please interview Dr Chris Knobbe, who has a book on seed oil effects. Would love ypu to challenge the other perspective on seed oils.
@@TheProofWithSimonHillSo? His arguments are based on incidence of Macular Degeneration!
Possibly with seed oils is in regards to the amount of processing they undergo. Again quality is more important
Great episode Simon. Dr Willet was awesome. Keep it up
Just an idea regardig seed oils why in some cases they might be harmful: Won't some fractions of the polyunsaturated fats be converted to transfats when you fry/cook with them?
@@TheProofWithSimonHillThen I am asking myself whats the difference between heating once or multiple times. Probably the amount of created trans fats only, which means even 1x heating too high creates some trans fats. I have googled a bit. PUFAs can be transformed to trans fats at around 130° C already. A pan easily can reach 200+°C. Wow, no wonder why ultra processed food is so terribly bad. Next to sugar, round up polluted wheat also trans fats from seed oils. 🤮
Excellent interview
Very good talk! How do u replace beef and chicken as primary protein sources with nuts and legumes DAILY?? Hard to envision getting 0.7 gram per pound of protein from lugumes...every day...
You don’t! Nonsense information
Get the Crometer and weigh your foods
What a sweet man ❤ going to listen again because it was so good 😊
Ditto. Apart from top notch expertise, very appealing demeanor.
Was ready to listen to the whole episode when canola oil was recommended. I quickly went back to listening to Barbara O’Neil
Haha I did exactly the same
Isn’t EVOO & 🥑oil better oils to use rather than the (Canada grape seed) canola oil?
This is fantastic!
Thanks for this interview! I especially enjoyed the section where you discussed correlation vs causation
Interesting what he said about some vegetables possibly being harmful. Any rough clue on which those may be compared to which would be better? He did mention corn and peas possibly being not good in certain amounts. I am also shocked that he doesn’t seem that favorable of artificial sweeteners??! Or am I misunderstanding him? I have a lot of them and natural sweeteners such as stevia..
@@MB10097
I could kinda see that, but more so because they lack the antioxidant power other potatoes or plant carbs may have, such as sweet potato or black beans. So one would be eating an inferior food (white potatoes) to something that could be a better replacement (purple or orange sweet potatoes).
Dr Greger says if your diet is peas, carrots, potatoes and iceberg lettuce you're in trouble.
@@skippy6462
Even sweet and purple potatoes??
Maybe one of the things about corn is its lack of bioavailability in certain key nutrients, so unless you prepare it in the way meso Americans do (nixtamalization) you can't rely on it as a staple crop.
@@skippy6462 what's wrong with peas? Lots of nutrients in them. And it's a legume.
Many years ago, Joel Fuhrman suggested that a diet low in fat / cholesterol should also be low in added salt for that very reason of hemorrhagic stroke.
What about a diet that is fairly high in plant fats and has no cholesterol?
@@carinaekstrom1 Well, he suggests low salt intake period. Also a diet with moderate fat but from whole foods instead of oil. But I guess it is of extra concern if cholesterol is low. And of course you don't want to trade risk of hemorrhagic stroke for the problems with having higher cholesterol. I believe that Joel will be a guest on Simon's podcast in the near future, so that will be a must listen.
@@StephenMarkTurner Very few plant based or even exclusively plant eating people will get their cholesterol levels extremely low. That happens mostly on statins. And if someone doesn't have a problem with blood pressure, moderate salt intake should not be a problem. What I call moderate might be low for someone on SAD. Yes, Joel Fuhrman is interesting.
@plantchompers sent me over here and I'm glad he did! New sub. Great interview!
Dear Simon, now that you are in Harvard, it would be great if you can interview Nicholas Norwitz about the lipid energy model he has developed together with David Feldman and others. I'm very interested to see them explaining how they think CVD is developed in the general population (the 95% of the population that is metabolically ill). And also interesting to see them explaining how they think CVD will not develop in the 5% of the population (metabolically healthy and flexible) while following a low carb high fat diet. And also what they think will happen to a metabolically ill person that starts a low carb high fat diet and mantains it for many years. Do they think this person will avoid CVD development? Many thanks.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill I know you are skeptical. Dave is happy to talk to skepticals too. All he wants is to learn from you guys. We all could learn a lot while you and him expose their points of view in a friendly chat. Once you said not wanting your show to become an echoe chamber, but it still is. Very interesting I have to admit (I honestly reviewed it with 5 stars), but still has lots of echoe.
Fascinating discussion!
🎯💯🙏
Excellent interview. I’m disappointed that climate change is now clouding dietary science. Unfortunate
Excellent interview
Simon you are the best!!!!
This is awesome 🌱
You can get Omega 6 fats from whole and minimally processed foods such as nuts and seeds instead of chemically processed seed oils. If you saw these chemicals on a food label would you purchase the food and eat it or recommend it. Also there are minimally processed oils such as olive and avocado that are safe. Simon it seems you are so focused on eliminating saturated fat that you don't seem concerned what is substituted. I heard you say butter his highly processed but you don't think seed oils are highly processed?
Butter is processed. But that’s not why it’s harmful in high doses
Not understanding why Dr. Neal Barnard continues to stress the importance of a low-fat diet?
Can you get enough Omega 3 and Omega 6 just from plants? And are nuts and seeds necessary to include, even as Whole Foods, in the diet to get enough essential oils?
I like to take a DHA/EPA supplement just to make sure I’m getting enough Omega 3. I’m not so much worried about 6 since we tend to get enough of that.
His comments about extremely-low cholesterol being associated with higher risk of hemorrhagic stroke were surprising. Are you sure that's not just reverse causality?
I’ve been vegan for 7 years and still have health issues connected to blood sugar, I’ve been surfing the depths of the internet recently and now this interview, hoping to find the optimal macros to stabilize blood sugar and improve insulin resistance, but there’s so much contradicting information, can somebody tell me how much carbs, fat and protein am I supposed to eat for optimal blood sugar control?
Everyone's body & brain chemistry is different from one degree to another. Get the basics, then fine tune them until YOU feel optimal health.
BMI liver fat exercise ...Roy Taylor Newcastle.
Eat whole food plant based, no processed plant food including oil and whit flour
The starch solution
Have you interviewed Dr Layman yet?
soybean oil is a healthy fat? and no red meat what am I missing?
And get most of your calories from carbs 🙄
@@DC4L1983the right carbs
You were missing a lot.
Could the amount of vitamin k rich foods affect hemorrhagic stroke occurrence in people with very low cholesterol!
Great episode, thanks guys!
The two ESSENTIAL nutrients for humans to thrive are Fatty acids and protein,both found in the animal kingdom preferably ruminant,seafood.Not complicated , easy and delicious . Includes Eggs ,cheese ,butter . Eating this way will avoid obesity,diabetes cardio vascular disease ,gut issues ,arthritis. It will keep metabolism healthy. Oils are processed , ok a little poison won’t kill you . 😊Sometimes common sense can be helpful. Before it goes in your mouth ask is it an ESSENTIAL nutrient .An extra bonus deliciousness and satiating .😋💃🏽
This was my favourite!
Great interview. I just missed the polemic around gluten.
While stating that dairy consumption is not necessary for optimal health, it was interesting that this gentleman still consumes dairy himself. While mentioning sustainability issues, he completely ignored, in this interview at least, the violation of animal rights and exploitation of animals associated with this industry.
I'm on your side. But there are loads of people who couldn't give a rat's tiny bottom. Sometimes appealing to human health based on study alone is a step in the right direction. Think about colleagues of his and what they do in animal experiments. They live in a human centric culture.
Sadly enough, sometimes people still lose credibility in certain circles if they mention animal rights a lot.
The conversation is always limited in a way that matters to humans, so it’s human health and environmental health as it affects human survival. It’s sad that (non-human) animal life is not considered important, but I remain hopeful, since the environmental effects of the diet used to also be ignored.
I buy organic whole milk, and I've reduced my meat consumption to nothing. That's as close as I'll ever get to avoiding animal cruelty. If you spend too much time focusing on any amount of animal cruelty, you'll find hypocrisy everywhere. For example, is there money in your bank account? Why not donate that money to an animal shelter?
You're better off not taking a dogmatic stance on animal cruelty anyway, because you're just going to cause your opposition to dig in deeper. The most radical vegans certainly helped fuel the carnivore diet that is now rampant. Look up the diagram labeled "the physics of carnist veganism" on Google. When your strategy to change the behaviors of others is pure criticism, it doesn't actually help achieve your goal. You're attaching behaviors to the individual, and you're overlooking the much more nuanced reality that we live in. In *reality,* people's behaviors are a product of themselves *and* their environment.
You wouldn't criticize a homeless man for eating chicken (or at least I hope not). This is ultimately no different than an affluent person eating chicken. In both cases, neither person has acquired the necessary stimulus from their environment to remove their consumption of chicken. If you assume everyone is just like you and you attack those who aren't, then again, they're just going to dig in deeper. The better strategy for your end goal of reducing animal cruelty is to avoid criticizing and prodding into people's lifestyles and simply ask questions that challenge the margins of their beliefs. This is what allows you to actually change someone's mind. In this particular case, the first questions you should ask may have nothing to do with animal cruelty at all. You also can't expect to complete this process in one conversation. It is much better to plant a thought-provoking "seed" in their head and let it settle. If you become the person that learns how to ask the right questions, you become a very, very powerful force for good. But if you only criticize people, then you literally make the problems worse most of the time.
Sorry to say that soya oil and canola e are unhealthy as they are processed industrial oils, cow milk and it’s products are inflammatory but he did not mention casein one which can not be digested, lactose intolerance,organic soya milk yogurt is great as well as Tofu .
I prefer Dr. Ray Peat's stuff. You should interview Dr. Saladino.
Just watched again ... for 5th or 6th time
How could Dr. Willett insist that driving LDL down “too low” increases stroke risk then refuse to indicate a level that he considers to be too low? I’m sure he is aware that some doctors believe that lowering LDL cholesterol to below 30 significantly minimizes the risk of a cardiovascular event. Is reducing LDL to 30 what he would think of as getting it too low?
From the Mayo clinic. Maybe 40mg per decilitre of blood is too low. However, the concerns are based on correlation, not causation at this point.
I’m not convinced it’s causal. What would be the mechanism? How could physiological ApoB levels be detrimental? I’d like to see him discuss this with Thomas Dayspring.
@@reason3581what the purpose of calling it physiological? As far as I understand, having “as low as possible” LDL or ApoB levels is desirable for someone who has had high LDL or ApoB for a big part of his life and probably has other risk factors as well.
how can canola and sun flower oil etc be healthy...pls pls clarify
I think sunflower if it's organic, cold-pressed, and high-oleic is OK. Similar to only buying virgin olive oil I guess. Oils ain't oils Sol ;)
agreed if it is cold pressed..but then that should be mentioned accordingly
What would ‘one portion of dairy’ look like?
Brilliant!
This was my favourite!
Type of fat…interesting. But didn’t mention that he has always been down on saturated fat in the face of all the contradictory evidence.
They take a point every four years. And then they analyze to decimal places. Calibration doesn’t help unreliable data. But he never addressed my evidence that red meat consumption went down substantially in the last fifty years during which time there was a dramatic increase int he incidence of type 2 diabetes.
@RichardFeinman-yf7lx
I had 2 great grandparents who lived 100 years on healthy grains. I had a single grandparent who died at young age 73 of colon cancer , he ate mostly meat.
Thank you so much for this wonderful video, so helpful and interesting! I mainly follow the Mediterranean diet, but in autumn and winter I love to eat a red meat stew…..with a lot of veggies 👍🏼♥️
So I'm really interested in health and longevity, sustainability, and came to appreciate the importance of avoiding animals foods due to the harmful practices of factory farming. Gave up alcohol and animal products at the beginning of COVID. Basically WFPB. I'd say I was challenged for about a month, then everything became pretty routine. Is Dr. Willett suggesting that a Vegan diet is less healthy than a Mediterranean Diet due to the positive health data out of Greece? Say it ain't so Simon! Oh, and Happy Birthday!
I am also WFPB however I don't equate this with being Vegan as the latter "allows" for unlimited quantities of overly-processed and junk foods (not suggesting all Vegan's eat this way). Maybe this is what he was referring to.
I've been vegan since 1990. I'm doing well. It's so annoying hearing about the benefits of fish since I won't be going back :(
Usually, health authorities are more worried about people's lack of knowledge to make a vegan diet work, or by the difficulty of adhering to a healthy vegan diet in our unhealthy food environments.
This guy birthday is tomorrow 20 June 78 years old
Happy birthday to you both 🎉
@@TheProofWithSimonHillhappy birthday for tomorrow 🎉
Happy birthday Walter & Simon! 🎉
He looks pretty good for someone who must have spent a hell of a lot of time behind a desk.
Such a helpful episode!
People are eating less red meat and more chicken, eggs and fish. I doubt if total animal protein consumptions has moved much in the last 4 decades.
In the US overall per capita meat consumption (excluding fish) has gone up a bit, and fish per capita consumption has gone up with 75% according to "Our world in data".
Willet said: "Only 5% of US people eat as the dietary guidelines.". So, clearly dietary guidelines are not serving their "intended" purpose. But their "de facto" purpose is clear: they serve food industry to wash their face and claim that their products are "somehow" fitted into the guidelines. I'm reading them now and it's clearly stated that there is 15% room in your diet for rubbish. But it's not just that, but the "non-rubish" industrial food fits too (like our beloved Up&Go, with the many US equivalences). So, if the guidelines are working only for the food industry, and if the industry is the culprit of the terrible health of US population (only 5% are metabolically healthy), then:
Why upgrade the effort and create GLOBAL dietary guidelines (EAT-Lancet)?
My only guess is: to serve for the same: wash the face of the food industry at the global level.
By the way, according to their calculations, I (male 51yo, 71kg, 179cm, active) should be eating 2800 Calories per day. And from those 2800 calories, 133g of animal food (meats, poultry, eggs), which is around 44g of animal protein per day. Which looks bad for me because I will need ~70 grams of protein from other sources not as dense (assuming 1.6g/kg of protein, as Don Layman recommends). So yes, I'm not eating as the guidelines suggest neither, I think guidelines pattern may hurt my health, starting from lack of protein. So, I'm eating the foods in their healthy 85% (nothing from their allowed 15% of rubbish), only whole and fresh, but with different proportions and in an omnivore pattern.
What is the opinion of "The Proof" about the protein suggested intake of the US dietary guidelines? What is the protein suggested intake by "The Proof"?
What about athletes, how much does this apply, not like a soccer player (futbol) but sprinter or American football player?
Superb
It's still the animal products and ultra processed foods. Might be able to get away with eating AP but that's not saying much. Can drink alcohol and get away with it. Smoke even. Optimum Nutritional Recommendations has to be what Dr. Greger research shows: whole food plant based diet without salt oil or sugar, daily exercise, sleep, less stress etc
sponsored by Big Oil? (olive, canola, soybean)
Those 2 oils (not 1st press EVOO olive) are cheap, rancid and deodorized to have no odor or taste so the unsuspecting public intuition is destroyed and they consume much more than they realize since their taste buds are shut down and with too much consumption their health is destroyed. If they had 100 - 200 calories of butter cookies with 4 plain real ingredients, their intuition would feel the thick butter and gunk in their throat and their intuition would tell them they should stop at that point. This would work the same with any ancestral 1 single ingredient type of fat.
Another science denier making comments.
Isn’t all oils whether it’s vegetable or canola, coconut or avocado oil still gonna block the arteries that’s my understanding from all the so-called experts ? Now I’m confused
So, what is it about red meat that makes it unhealthy? I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say exactly. Is it the saturated fat, the heme iron, or something else? If white meat is healthier, then I guess it’s not saturated fat because chicken has saturated fat too. So what is it with red meat? I’ve never been much of a meat eater because I genuinely don’t care for it - never have. But the “why” about red meat has always wondered me.
It's because if you are in perfect health, no one can sell you any medicine, vitamins supplements or surgeries. Dr. Leila Denmark said the best protein is from eggs, lean meat and black eyed peas, but at 5 feet tall and 100 lbs what was the portion size, 2 ounces?
Digesting red meat is taxing on your liver. If you are eating red meat in a meal with more than 25 grams of protein total often, it will impact your liver. Your liver regulates cholesterol and some degree blood sugar
A big part of it is that meat has no fiber. Humans are built to eat foods with fiber. Meat functions almost like refined junk foods in the human body. It has some nutrients, but some are the wrong types for humans. Heme iron and retinol, for example. Too much saturated fat. And meat has no phytonutrients. It may also be something about the Neu5Gc molecule that humans are not supposed to have in their bodies. It's probably a combination of things, some of which we haven't discovered yet.
@@carinaekstrom1 But wouldn’t that be true for “white” meat too as well as red meat?
@@brucejensen3081 As I said to someone else, wouldn’t that be true for “white” meat too? Yet, he says chicken is ok.
I'm interested in the idea I see out there about (seed/vegetable) oils being very calorically dense and being a contributor to weight gain and obesity. Is it better to consume our plant-based fats from the whole food (the nuts, olives and seeds) versus in processed oils? Also are commercially made seed/vegetable oils worse than expeller-pressed oils?
Excellent
Dairy is for baby cows, oil is for lamps and cars. Eat what grows off the plants in their whole raw form ppl. That simple.
Thanks
Sugar is not seductive as host commented but addictive.