The Science of Protein | Masterclass for Muscle Growth & Longevity | The Proof Podcast EP
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 มิ.ย. 2024
- Unpack protein like never before in Episode #290, a compilation of the most insightful conversations with nutrition experts to dissect the multifaceted role of protein in our diets. From the fundamentals of protein needs and muscle synthesis to the nuanced interplay between protein intake and longevity, this masterclass is your one-stop shop to understand how protein truly impacts our health and wellbeing.
👇 Visit The Proof website for the full show notes and supporting studies. 👇
theproof.com/podcast/
Today’s masterclass features an assembly of leading nutrition experts: Donald Layman, Christopher Gardner, Stuart Phillips, Valter Longo, Mark Messina, and Fritz Horstmann. Their combined expertise spans the breadth of protein research, from muscle health to dietary impacts on longevity. Collectively, they deliver a wealth of knowledge, cutting through the complexity to provide clear, authoritative insights on protein’s vital role in our health.
This episode centres around the impact of protein on bodies, consolidating the latest research for a well-rounded view of protein consumption. We dissect the nuances of protein nutrition, from Don Layman’s insights on protein quality and timing to Valter Longo’s research on protein fasting and its effects on aging. We also explore Stuart Phillips’ and Christopher Gardner's perspectives on daily protein requirements, Mark Messina's clarification of soy's health effects, and Fritz Horstmann's application of protein in plant-based diets for muscle building.
Specifically, we discuss:
00:00 - Intro
01:57 - What Exactly is Muscle Protein Synthesis?
06:45 - The Impact of Different Proteins on Muscle Synthesis
08:38 - Recommended Protein Intake for Adults Explained
09:40 - Comparing Protein Needs: Women vs Men
10:58 - The Importance of Protein Distribution in Diet
14:28 - What is the Maximum Protein Threshold?
18:11 - Evaluating the RDA: Is It Adequate for Protein Needs?
25:27 - Stuart Phillips on Optimal Protein Quantities
32:34 - Determining the Ideal Daily Protein for Health
37:25 - Ageing, Skeletomuscular Preservation, and Protein
42:19 - High Protein Diet: Does It Affect Lifespan?
47:52 - Plant vs Animal Protein: Understanding the Differences
53:56 - Should Plant-Based Dieters Worry About Protein Deficiency?
58:08 - Protein and Satiety: The Fullness Factor
1:03:36 - Unravelling mTOR and IGF1 in Ageing
1:11:43 - Causes Behind Elevated IGF1 Levels
1:15:11 - Acute vs Chronic Elevation of IGF1: What's the Difference?
1:20:52 - Risks Associated with Protein Overconsumption
1:24:47 - Impact of Exercise on IGF1 Levels
1:30:31 - The Role of Muscle Tissue in Promoting Longevity
1:39:59 - Exercise as a Cancer Risk Reducer: Fact or Myth?
1:44:02 - Isoflavones and Estrogen: An In-depth Analysis
1:52:14 - Isoflavone Content in Soy Foods: How Much Is There?
1:57:47 - Safe Daily Limits for Soy Isoflavones
2:00:34 - Are Blood Tests Necessary for High Protein Diets?
2:02:49 - Protein and Longevity
2:06:44 - Outro
Listen to previous episodes and connect with today’s guests:
- Dr Christopher Gardner: theproof.com/tag/christopher-...
- Dr Don Layman: theproof.com/tag/don-layman/
- Dr Mark Messina: theproof.com/tag/mark-messina/
- Dr Stuart Phillips: theproof.com/tag/stuart-philips/
- Dr Valter Longo: theproof.com/tag/valter-longo/
- Fritz Horstmann: theproof.com/tag/fritz-horstm...
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Great protein summary. As an acute care infectious disease physician, who works with the elderly, the problem with being institutionalized/hospitalized are 3 fold, 1. delirium and 2. being bed bound 3. extreme fatigue. As a result they not exercising any muscles even their swallowing muscles due to fatigue and delirium. People lose 2% of their skeletal muscle mass daily and when they begin to recover, it takes staff and time to help them safely rehabilitate. Biologically when you are ill, it is protective to shut off the GI system to conserve that energy to survive. The problem is not the lack of protein in their meals. The problem is that they physically can't safely eat. Some need tube feeds or parental nutrition, which are not ideal but are highly calculated to meet their protein needs. I have to agree with Christopher Gardner that people are too hyperfocused on macronutrients. Time and time again, history has proven focusing on macronutrients will not improve longevity and its the micronutrients that are lacking in modern day food. We forget the sacrifices from the European Sailors during16-18th century with Scurvy, Beri-beri in Asia, Pellagra in Europe, Goiter belts in the midwest, etc. I see gradients of nutritional deficiencies as these conditions lead to infectious diseases. The elderly are not protein deficient because they don't eat protein. They are deficient because they don't eat.
Interesting comment. Something to think about. Just a N of 1 response, but when my mom was in the last months of her life, she really didn’t want to eat and when she did, it was usually only small cups of rice pudding that I would make her. She just didn’t want to eat salads and meat, much less vegetables.
@@MB10097 Sacropenia is multifactorial including the lack of absorption of multiple nutrients like inflammatory bowel disease, short guy syndrome, gastric bypass, chemotherapy etc and as a result, the lack of physical activity, which rapidly causes muscle loss. If you can't absorb nutrients, you have no energy for physical activity. You can also get it from being bed bound from sepsis, fractures, dementia and depression. Healthy nerves are also essential to muscle growth and gastrointestinal motility and absorption. So people with nerve damage due to diabetes or spinal cord injuries get sarcopenia. Blood flow is also essential and those with severe peripheral arterial disease (atherosclerosis) get sarcopenia. Protein leakage or lack of metabolism from severe renal to liver diseases also have sarcopenia. Moderate to Severe nutrition deficiencies like vitamin C, deficiency, B1 and niacin will affect your energy production, reduce your mitochondrial health and muscle growth and results in sarcopenia. All acute and critical care physicians see plenty of patients with sarcopenia. I have never seen or heard of a case of Sacropenia due to the lack of protein intake alone. Having been in practice for 25 years, treating thousands of severely ill people, I've come to realize, there is no disease that is ever isolated in origin or does not effect every part of the human body.
Lack of resistance training too!
My mum's decline was because of inactivity over decades getting gradually worse with lockdown final nail. Eating less and less because of a 8cm hernia (operation done now). Just lead to more chair bound, spinal fractures, lack of absorption, terrible sleep hygiene. She's 78 and probably on the low side of protein but it's her lack of exercise/movement that's been her undoing. She's lifelong vegetarian and 9 yrs vegan. Apart from asthma, osteoporosis and high blood pressure she has no other illness.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill
Yeah.. That's my opinion too.
Layman's Protein increase intake side of the debate is literally made in order to support , the muscle synthesis levels that the elderly ought to be holding by Movement, and Resistance training, as well as cardio.
None of this matters if the skeletal muscle doesnt get targeted.
Get that blood flowing ppl !
Thanks so much for this condensed video, Simon.
Kudos form Portugal
Simon, your podcast is the only one that when I see it drop, I jump on it immediately. The quality of what you put out is unmatched. Thanks for another great one.
Agreed.
Me too, simon is the best 👌
Simon is the only vegan (vegetarian?) I tune into regularly.
The rest spout propaganda.
@@char2304😅😊😅
Simon!!!!
This is brilliant!
All these guys in one video
Longo vs Layman - just wow!
Looking forward to listen to it tonight. THANK YOU for outstanding gothering
Hope you enjoy it!
All I've got is my experience, both on a heavy meaty diet with very high protein on the plate versus a whole plant food exclusive diet with what looks like almost none. At age 70 I adopted an Esselstyn diet (Forks over knives movie) and my doc tested me both before and after being on it 6 weeks. Before, on the big meat diet, my blood protein was 10 out of 100. After, on the plant-only diet, it was 50 out of 100. Not lower, higher by about 500 percent. I took NO supplemental protein of any kind. It's stayed at 50/100 for the last 7 years. Now, when these guys were talking about 30 grams of protein, I thought they meant for the whole day, not for a single meal! My doctor was a bit puzzled, but shrugged it off. I finally had to conclude the large supply of high nutrient carbs I was getting on the all plant diet, slowly-absorbing carbs, was satisfying my body's needs for carbs to feed the brain and muscles, and leaving the protein alone instead of splitting it into carbs plus free nitrogen and sulfur. Keto diets are fat diets, not protein ones. If they included protein, then the body could split the protein (CHONS) into CHO (carbs) and N + S (nitrogen and sulfur), and this would cut off the ketosis state. So my protein, coming in along with these slow carbs is providing a signal not to break protein down. I'm NOT trying at 77 to build muscle just to retain it, and so far it's working great. My thighs are like rocks from climbing 30 flights of stairs two steps at a time 3 times a week, my upper body is strong, and I'm on zero medications. I've got more actual muscle now than on my old high meat diet, plus I recover from workouts much faster. So, to me, all the heavy protein might be, sorry to say, a rip off, since my old 20 dollar steaks were actually being broken down into 20 cents worth of carbs, and nitrogen, free anywhere, and sulfur from the higher sulfur animal-derived amino acids, making my stools smell especially bad. I doubt these fellas would have access to someone eating a diet like I do to even see this, but maybe they know more and can comment in the future on it. To me, I'd rather have the higher carbs so long as they're nutritious carbs, so as to get the energy requirement directly without interruption, and breaking down a load of protein into nitrogen and sulfur, which can lead to phosphorous and calcium lost from the bones due to metabolic acidosis from the protein conversion into carbs, leaving behind nitrogen, and sulfur that can turn into nitrous and sulfurous acids (not nitric and sulfuric, they would kill outright). I learned to tolerate the plant diet fine, since the health benefits for me and especially my arteries, are needed for my health.
You're evidence 🧾 for plant diet thank you for sharing appreciate I took some notes to implement
I enjoyed your comments, especially by someone around my age. As a Naturopath for 50 years with a background in the Natural Hygiene movement, it's nice to see that these researchers are confirming what was known by practitioners outside of medicine centuries ago. Back then they didn't know about all the chemistry and organic pathways talked about but they were good observers.
I remember reading body building magazines in the '60s when there was also a lot of talk about protein, and a few researchers had come to the conclusion that indeed too much protein was counterproductive for building strength and size.
At 82 I'm feeling pretty darn good, and basically with no health problems. Most of my life I've followed a mixed diet. I'd estimate 90% fruits and veggies, nuts, seeds, very small occasional amounts of animal protein, aged cheese, 2 eggs per week.
You mention smelly stools. Whenever I've indulged in too much meat I notice a strong body odor.
For the past 18 months or so I've been following a modified Mike Mentzer routine of body building: limited reps but high intensity to failure. But I do like Greg Gallagher's idea of being lean and building muscle. I think his site is called Kenobody.
I think intermittent fasting is good for weight loss and maintenance but I need to be more consistent. But according to Valter Longo it might be better to start the fast later in the evening because he says the research seems to show that people who eat some kind of breakfast actually live longer (?)
Feel free to respond. I'd be curious to know more about your health quest.
@@Beatrice-nx5ldYou would need to grow the healthy bacteria in your gut that digest plants properly. When I went off a clean whole foods keto diet and reintroduced my beloved beans, I had I lot of gas and bloat trouble that I had never had before with beans. Several months of keto diet killed my bean digesting bacteria and it took me many months to regrow them. Now I’m back to zero problem digesting beans. People that don’t eat enough healthy plants have poor gut flora, therefore problems with boating and poor digestion, it’d take time to grow a healthy and diverse flora, but it’s possible, they just have to make a few diet changes.
@@greentree_I've been through similar. I'm pretty good now, but still get a bit of gas after eating a big meal of chickpeas and beans. Did your gas completely go away? Any tips on how you helped rebuild the bacteria, or was it just a matter of letting the gut adapt?
@@murv24 I only eat one serving at a time (half a cup cooked per meal). How much are you eating in a sitting? With me, after I regrew my bacteria, gas from beans completely away. It took me 8 months of eating beans regularly again after keto. I soaked the beans, pressure cooked (they say adding cumin might help too), threw away the broth and rinsed the beans with water before consuming. I found those extra steps helped some. Now I don’t need to rinse or even throw away the broth anymore. Fully adapted. Thank goodness because being from South America, I grew up eating beans everyday and love them. For those having trouble, they can do that, and eat tiny servings each time and slowly increase.
Simon!!!! just saw the tittle of this video and i am so thankful you have packed all this brilliant researchers in one video. Listening and watching now, but i am sure i am for an amazing 2 hours journey here.
I hope you added here how this information change your perspective, if at all, and how you are eating in the present.
Your channel is amazing, keep the great work and the good information rolling, this is much needed in this days.
Thank you, hugs and blessings from Argentina
I'm so glad you did this, Simon! GREAT compilation. Tons of gems here
Simon, this podcast is wonderful to bring together the research from a variety of experts. I do wish there was more agreement on this topic. Especially after following Valter Longo’s work so closely and understanding the benefits of fasting - yet having a desire to become more strong and fit.
As a 47-year-old woman who is looking to build lean muscle mass, I've started tracking macronutrients for the first time in my 14 years of eating a whole food, plant-based diet.
I've been focusing on weightlifting and consuming at least 1.2 grams per kg of body weight. I've noticed muscle tone and strength now increasing as I enter perimenopause which I believe will be beneficial for longevity regarding bone health, mobility, balance, grip strength and more.
I believe I must resign myself to the fact that there will not be one answer that all experts can agree on and, for now, I'm focusing on the 1.2 grams and quarterly fasting - in hopes that I get the best of both worlds - body composition AND longevity.
Yep! And for me, my goal is to showcase different views from reputable people. I’m not professing to have a clear cut view myself either - just my takeaways from the imperfect data that’s been shared .
What a great podcast 🫶 Thank you, Simon! So much valuable knowledge in one video! What I love the most about The Proof podcasts is the level of sophistication and integrity in all conversations. I wish we all had our daily conversations in such manner. My outtake from this is never stop learning and evolving 💚
Totally agree! Be committed to evolving and staying curious
This is amazing. I've been vegan 27 years and I lift, I have a great amount of muscle mass and over 50, between this video and Dr Greger really making me want to "play around" with lowering my protein intake to see how low I can take it before starting to lose muscle (and, of course keep my current lifting routine)
Come back and tell us please.
What is your protein consumption currently? 0.8, 1.2, or 1.6 (or higher) grams of protein per kilo of body weight ?
@@SouthGarden77 I have been doing 1 gram per pound of full body weight
@@workhardplayharderx2 Hhm, I needed only half of that for very good results. I am female and turned vegan at the age of 50, started with serious resistance training 5x times per week at the age of 54. Protein intake was 0.8/kg/2pounds when I started training and I increased it to 1g/kg in the second year. It took me two years of serious (but also cautionary training as I have to protect my joints & tendons) to build a very nice & visible set of muscles. I am looking at my 60’s now and hope I can maintain that. So with a 12-15% of calories coming from protein (a good protein profile/portfolio!) I have been doing very well on that level with eating whole foods plants only during the last 10 years.
@@Test-eb9bj This is great to hear, I'm female as well but have been vegan 27 years and well into my 50s, I do NOT take HRT so I'm worried about losing my muscle mass, I've seen so many lose their muscle mass so they decide to go on HRT, I would like to avoid it since I'm not having symptoms (well a few but nothing horrid...yet) May I ask if you are on HRT. It's GREAT to hear you are doing this, I am playing around with cutting my protein down by half and increasing more carbs instead. THANK YOU!!
Thanks, Simon, for posing the pertinent questions. The part that commences at 48:36 is truly captivating; Christopher Gardner's insights resonate deeply with me.
This is the first video coming from your channel that I've watched and I have to say... I'm really impressed! Solid prep on your behalf, a wide array of guests, appreciation for nuance and no sensationalism. I'm definitely going to explore more of your content! 💪
Welcome aboard!
I'm loving the podcast. Thank you for making another great episode! I love the order, pace and loads of so useful information. Much appreciated
You are so welcome!
Really appreciate that you put the references in the video. Great podcast!
This is becoming my favourite podcast! I like that you bring scientists with different opinions creating space for healthy debate - I get so much more value here than listening to other hosts that scream 'high protein will fix all ailments, or humans are supposed to eat only meat, or no meat etc" - their way is the only way all they do invite guests just to confirm their bias.
But when he does have a guest who opposes his view he carefully crafts questions and huide the conversation so that his views aren't opposed. Yes Simon people can see right thru U. He'll never acknowledge new science that conflicts with his support of the cholesterol hypothesis. Very poor indeed!!!
Simon thank u this is EXACTLY what I’ve been asking for wow thanks for this, PERFECT!!!! 👍 🍻🍾💪
Fantastic - thank you so much for making this!!
Glad it was helpful!
Simon, thank you for this! ♥️Love from S. Korea
Loved this. I learned so much. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Excellent video!
I love this approach to finding out what the experts agree on, but moreso, watching how they can professionally and congenially disagree. This leads to almost instant clarifications, respectful fact checking, and a well-balanced wealth of information for the viewer. I would watch a video like this every single time! It informs me, it doesn’t upset nor frustrate me, and I don’t feel like I have to pick a side. I hope we continue to see more of these in the science arena and hopefully in the political arena too.
Question: I am not educated in any of the sciences so I don’t understand why my protein needs are higher because I’m a chubby person. Why does fat storage make a protein requirement go up? I’ve always wondered about that…would love to understand.
@@Beatrice-nx5ld Wow, it makes more sense to base it on ideal weight. Everyone I’ve ever asked before said I’d have to use my current chubby (ok, fat) weight) which meant I would have to eat only protein all day to get enough or eat so much food that weight loss was impossible. ! This did not seem practical, sustainable, or healthy.
I, too, have never “suffered” from a protein deficiency, even when I experimented with raw food veganism. I am currently WFPB and watching my needs so I can lose weight. Protein is in everything I eat.
☮️
@@pattidoyle5102 need to cut the sugar and carbs to reach the goals or weight target. The fastest and better way to loose weight without nutrition deficiencies and cravings for junk food is to go full carnivore for 60-90 days
No . There is no need of carnivore diet. He needs a calorie deficit. Diesn t mater which aporoach will take as long as he is in a negative energy balance. If I was him I kl make sure i hit my daily protein intake while i ll be in a defucit of 500 to 1000 calories deoending of his current weight. I ll doing resistance training 2 3 times per week to minimize the loss of muscle and cartilage wich comes with the loss weight when done without resistance training. I ll so do 2 3 low intensity cardio per week of 30 60 minutes each just to create even a greater deficit. That would be optimal and healthy weight loss and that s he way is should be done by every person that is trying to lose a significant amount of body weight.
My hub & I are 66/62. We went vegan in 2019 but have had gradual drop in our protein levels yearly & this year our levels were below therapeutic. So we started increasing our protein intake some, whether it's absorption issue or just not enough protein being eaten remains to be seen. Great podcast with lots of info to unpack, ty ❤
Greetings Friends,
Which segment of our discussion struck you as the most compelling? I'd be delighted to read your thoughts. Additionally, if you've any related questions, kindly leave them in the comments. I'll make sure they're addressed in our forthcoming conversation.
I’m half way through so will continue shortly. I’m struck at how divergent the recommendations were. Will need to relisten to make sure I’ve got my kg vs lb calls right. I have ~0.3 of your weight in lbs in mind. Sounds like there is still a lot more work and clarification that can be done on appropriate protein intake. I believe in Longo’s work and that lower protein levels may extend longevity and support sufficient muscle then to support good health and the longer life. For many of us who also do resistance training, is more protein overkill and possibly harming long life? We often assume if we look trim and muscular, it reflects health and long life. Hearing just the half or so of the several views, there is still a lot we need to reconcile or clarify further. Having said that, most of the plant-based doctors/scientists I follow are fairly consistent on 0.3-0.36 grams per pound of body weight - Longo, Gregor, NIH, Function Health (Hyman echoing the others).
It would have been nice to see some discussion from the experts about protein leverage. Seems to be a lot of discussion about 'how much protein can I get away with' but what really moves the needle for satiety, and hence body composition, IGF-1, insulin, mTOR ets is protein %. Increasing protein % doesn't tend to lead to a large increase in protein (in grams), mainly a reduction in non-protein energy from carbs and/or fat.
When these experts talk about protein requirements in terms of g/kg/d, I’d be interested to know how they would adjust those for obese individuals. Calculate based on actual weight? Goal weight? Ideal weight? I’ve seen a lot of proposals on that topic but would love to hear about the evidence. Thanks for the great content!
@@Beatrice-nx5ld Ideal weight or lean body mass does make more sense than total body weight if body fat percentage is high.
📢 The Cool kid on the Playground here is, Dr. Valter Longo.
Very informative episode. When calculating protein needs, what do I use as my factor--current weight, ideal weight, or lean body mass? I'm trying to get 1 to 1.2 gm/kg but I'm not sure what to use as my weight. Thanks!
This lecture that needs repeating. Wow.
Great information👍
Simon I’d urge you to look into Peter Rogers MD. The dude is an absolutely biochemistry genius and he breaks down the benefit of low fat, low protein diets. He has been on chef AJ a number of times and is extremely willing to talk to anyone who reaches out. A chat between you two would be fascinating.
The only problem with Rogers is his idols is for instance Ann Coulter and Ayn Rand
@@user-gm3eb1zc9b it has everything to do with it.He’s st***d
@@doddsalfaare you politicizing diet?!
@@jellybeanvinkler4878 I question Rogers ability to inform about diet ,for instance he demonise all oils and fats like I have never seen . His information may apply to severe heart disease patients .
@@jellybeanvinkler4878 if Ann Coulter racist rant makes you a fan your jugement is poor
Great love this thanks
This was excellent
w/ Gardner & Stu, can we get a reference for the 'nitrogen balance' studies ?
tysm, looking forward to the rest of this series !
Love it🔥👏
Is a high protein diet dangerous, regardless of source of protein? 1:21:42 "The data suggests yes"
1:13:00 to be continued tomorrow time to sleep thank you for this masterpiece masterclass
In a pinch I use Walden Farms and Primal Kitchen dressings. Being raised by a horde of Italian women I was taught to make my own sauces and dressings.
My suggestion is not that much more protein. If you’re not doing weight resistance training, which means any kind of weight training when you’re old you’re not going to be using the protein. A 20% increase and quality protein, more beans, lentils, a better source of usable protein, more than just steamed vegetables, are what’s needed. Better protein, more movement including weight resistance that’s the key not massive amounts of protein. No more than people can get giant with taking steroids, but not doing anything exercise wise.💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
Just curious would higher protein intake increase the chance of misfolded proteins?
I have increasingly moved towards prioritising protein in my diet away from fat when I was doing keto.
Excellent interview. Very helpful! I got a question. Dr Layman said that leucine will only be able to do its job when all the other amino acids are there. What about a post-exercise supplement that I use, where leucine is included. Is that leucine effective at all? Looking forward to your answer. /Egmont Mika
damn, gonna jump right in
Surprising to me that even though I don’t have any opinion about how much protein I need, I eat practically the same amount every day.
Dr. Gardner talks about getting enough amino acids from plant foods but he didn't touch on (unless I missed it) how much protein we digest and absorb. I'd be interested to know if he thinks digestibility is an issue in whole plant foods vs more processed ones which make protein more available and whether the RDA reflects this as well (Brenda Davis RD has a great video on this for Whole Food PB eaters).
BD video is under a channel called Rochester Lifestyle Medicine Institute called 'Plant Powered Protein with Brenda Davis RD'
In her protein book she talks about 10% more protein. From 0.8 to 0.9g per kg lean body weight.
Nobody has touched on the lower bioavailability of plant based protein, which not a minor issue. Literally, by consuming 0.8 grams of protein per kilo of body weight on a vegan diet, vegans are falling short . Nobody brings this up unfortunately
Based on what he said here and what I've heard him say in the past, I don't think he considers it a concern. I'm paraphrasing, but my understanding of his belief is that if you eat a varied diet and consume enough calories, you will get enough protein.
diaas is outdated. Its on rat and pigs fed raw plants. Human studies show plant protein is equal @@Beatrice-nx5ld
Simon, I have listened to so many people regarding this topic. I love all of your podcasts. What I love the most is that you make an effort to summarize into practical terms the conclusions of every discussion. However, after going through this podcast 2x, starting and stopping, I am still confused about what I need. Honestly, why is this so freakin complicated? It seems that people do not agree with each other on what is ideal.
I am 58 y., F, 5’3”, 117 lbs, post-menopausal , on HRT, Vegan for 3 years, very athletic, active and do resistance training 3x. Wk. I am just stumped on the ideal recommendation for protein for someone like me. This episode almost confused me more because of contradictions. I am leaning to C Gardner’s recommendations. He just seemed very verse in the actual research.
And, isn’t IGF1 a negative factor? As Long mentions, implicated in cancers and activated by high protein intake, as you, Simon, so appropriately had him point out?
Honestly, need more help, let’s narrow this down.
I was vegan for 3 years and decided to start eating fish and chicken cause I wasn't happy with my lean look. Muscle was really hard to grow on a plant based only diet. And I wasn't to into the bodies of the vegans I was following. They had very little Muscle. I think our bodies need more protein to thrive and have a healthier physique. I'm all about eating mostly plants, but need a higher level of protein for muscle and bone health 💪
Nimai Delgado
@ScotCampbellwindowpainter interested to know if he built that only on a plant based diet (without any steroid help too). A lot of social media people use gear to build.
There are plenty of muscular plant based athletes. And I am not talking about plant based bodybuiders, which most often use PED's. But if you feel you are consuming not enough protein - there is option to consume vegan protein suplements. I'd say chicken is the worst choise of all, unless it is organic, free range, etc. However from my experience, the muscle growth depends much more on proper training.
@@ScotCampbellwindowpainter I appreciate the effort he has gone to to look like that, and it is a good example for showing vegans can build muscle too. When I was young (vegan female) people used to comment on my physique, even my biceps, but i was just very fit and healthy, nothing like that. In my day most people weren't going to the gym like they do today, but I did. I felt it was important to look good and be healthy as I represented a vegan lifestyle. But do most average guys really want to look like that? Do they feel pressured to look that extreme I am wondering? Are there many females that like that look nowadays? Personally that extreme look would have repelled myself and women I have talked to in the past.
I’m pescatarian and mostly plants vs fish or seafood. I eat beans and try to combine to get complete proteins but guess I may be short. I think the path forward for me is to use plant-based protein powders if I think I am below my daily protein requirements. I have no desire to go back to meat (hurray). Prolon now has a protein powder (all amino acids & low IGF-1). That or Orgains, Kos, Sun Warrior, Garden of Life or Vega. Lots of great options now. Agree, need to hit minimum or better protein for bone & muscle health, and to keep sufficient muscle as I age.
This drives me freekin crazy. I’m 66yo, very active, worried about sarcopenia, was 100% plant based and averaged 45g protein (75kg). now I’ve added back in seafood AND 45g protein shake after a 6k morning ru. But before crossfit. I’m also trying to lose vanity fat so I can see my abs. Now my protein minimums is 100g rising to 150g on a 500kcal deficit. my weight loss has slowed, I’m.not bothered as I’m also trying to add muscle. You, Gabrielle Lyon, Valter Longo, Don Layman, Nic Vanhoven, Peter Attia and sarcopenia are all living rent free in my head.
I have HUGE respect for Cristopher Gardner and completely believe him that 0.8g/kg is more than sufficient BUT … now I have huge FOMO. I’ve added 5g of leucine to my plant protein cocoa shake … and it makes it tastes AWFUL.
WTF … I think us active 65+ year olds need a special “proof” show … avoiding sarcopenia, increasing muscle mass, increasing activity, losing vanity fat (maybe???) there are lots of shows for babies and protein (
Your podcast is one of the most informative I've come across. I wonder how it is that as athletes live longer than non athletes and they have a high protein intake, how it can be said that we should not have a high protein diet to reduce the risk of cancers and other causes of death. It seems (at least from the clips here) that this recommendation stems from experiments done on sedimentary rodents, while the experiments that athletes have done on themselves has shown that high protein diets, at least in conjunction with high levels of fitness results in increased longevity. Is there evidence that athletes on lower protein diets live even longer?
I often hear the suggestion of 1.6g / kg body weight from many sources and use that as my goal. When tracking my training with a Garmin watch and logging my nutrition with My Fitness Pal, the protein ratio of the macro tracking adjusts protein targets with increases of exercise and exertion. Is it more beneficial to adjust the protien intake to levels of exertion beyond the baseline of 1.6g / kg body mass? Does the point of diminishing returns of protein intake adjust based on levels of effort or does it still taper off around the 1.6 ratio?
I'm still confused when it comes to protein calculation per day. Should we calculate our protein intake by lean body mass or healthy body weight?
I’ve always thought you start with your current weight and then apply the formulas. Keep adjusting the amounts as your weight changes.
Ampk is they key. Basically the more net ampk the more longetivity.
And spiking mtor with 3G leucine over twice a day is a good way to keep ampk down regulated.
Centaunarians have eaten 2”3 meals per day even with snacks but you can bet they weren’t maxing out mtor in most meals
Thanks for mentioning dentition in elderly Dr. Gardner! Leaky gut and leaky gums can cause problems with blood/ brain barrier and mental health in elderly and poor.
I have type 2 diabetes. And i am on a high protein with some vegetable diet… it gives me best satiety and am able to lose more fat compared to other types of diets…
Simon I believe you were speaking with Drew on an episode and discussed that the optimal range is 1.2g-1.6g/kg and Drew said there is no added benefit higher than that. Can you or anyone for that matter link me to a study that looks at that?
Nevermind I found it it is called "A systematic review, meta-analysis and meta-regression of the effect of protein supplementation on resistance training-induced gains in muscle mass and strength in healthy adults"
And it clearly says that protein consumption over 1.6g/kg adds no benefit to resistance training
Regarding the discussion/debate with Stu and Gardner: I wish our political presidential debates could be this well moderated with participants willing to admit to where they agree and politely explain why they differ without personal attacks and constant interruptions.
Edit: in the US
One area was neglected. How protein is cooked or not. Most people cooking animal protein get the protein too hot, which creates Advanced Glycation End-products. I believe this is the source of the deleterious effects of consuming meat, or most of it. Saturated fat does matter, as well as carcinogens like acrylamide when stuff is under very intense heat, and there could be some negative from heme ingestion.
The vast majority of the animal protein I eat, I avoid high temperature cooking. I generally cook in 1/8 inch of water, covered, and using temperatures that don't make a vigorous boil. I use spices to make the food more flavorful. You want to avoid the Maillard browning reaction, because that is what make AGEs.
I don't eat meat all the time, I do eat soy, other beans, lentils, grains, and lots of other stuff.
And being a vegetarian does not necessarily protect you from AGEs. Deep-frying, pan frying, roasting, broiling, whatever is going to be unhealthy. That means roasted nuts, roasted seeds, roasted nut/seed oils are sources of AGEs. You also want to avoid chips, pretzels, crackers, crunchy cookies, Cheetos, and other foods cooked with intense heat. Even pizza. Though there are workarounds. And AGEs are made other ways. They are made by mechanical blending, that means butter, margarine, mayonnaise, Alfredo sauce, cream cheese, processed meats, and many other blended things are high in AGEs. The ones that are acidic are less likely to have high levels, and ones that say they are "low fat" tend to be lower.
They are also made during fermentation. I think this craze of prebiotics, probiotics and such is not as brilliant as many people think. There may be good and bad ways to do this, and those distinctions are not obvious at this point.
AGEs do matter. They make a lot of work for your kidneys, and may be one of the major reasons function decreases with age, but also one AGE can't be removed: glucosepane. This accumulates in your tissues, making them stiff, and vulnerable to injury. AGEs are associated with many degenerative diseases or other aging diseases.
is there a guideline for 'low protein' as Longo suggests for those
If
@@GraceR-eu2vk says who ? thx !
Kind of interesting cause I was always told 1 g of protein for 1 pound of weight so I’m 150 pounds I push somewhere they said between like 120 to 160 g of protein and I always said that’s ridiculous amount of protein but if that my 150 pounds now goes to150 kg which is probably about 70 kg I think well then 70 g of protein is an issue I usually go right around 100 g a day and what you’re saying now really clear things up
Um, i eat a block of tofu every day (equal to 4 servings of soy). I am a (2:03:56 ) very small person, is this going to be a problem?
I think Nathan Pritikin had it right. Protect the kidneys, stay active, eat until you’re full of whole, natural foods. This protein thing is always brought up by overweight people, lifting weights, thinking they’re muscled out, not realizing most of the size most people have is fat on their bodies. Seems like our options are: big and fat or small and lean.
Probably important to periodically briefly (about 3 to 6 weeks) restrict feeding to clear out poor quality cells, toxins.
The casserole with increasing levels of protein but same calories was interesting. Could it be that the taste being the same caused the subjects to eat the same amount of calories
Perfect. Now I'm completely confused!
To add to the debate, Dr Greger's book on aging will be out soon, and I don't think he will be suggesting lots of protein, even for seniors. Whether those conclusions are based on mice or humans, I am not sure. Personally, I eat more than Dr McDougall, but nowhere near as much as Dr Layman is suggesting.
Indeed, Chris and Toni MacAskill recently uploaded a lengthy interview with Dr Greger which appears to confirm that. I’m on the fence, but at 58 tend to aim for a little above ‘official’ recommendations, all from plants, especially when training.
He indeed won’t. I’ve already heard him talking about protein restriction. Sorry to say Simon that it’s really sounding like high protein diets age you quicker by the looks of the science. In any case it would be great if you could snag Dr Greger on for an episode next 😢
I agree!! would love to have Simon interview Dr. Greger@@musicmonsterman8395
Thanks so much for bringing this up. After listening to Simon, I had started to slide over to being more protein-conscious and -seeking (long-time vegan, 57, runner, and adding resistance training in the last 3 months). And then I heard Dr Greger (whom I adore) last week talking about protein *restriction* in relation to healthy aging (not sure what that means in terms of grams of protein to kg of weight). So hard to reconcile! Bottom-line is that I need to track some representative days in MyFitnessPal and see where I land. I want to echo that it would be fantastic if you could get Dr Greger on.
@@dj.h7424 can I ask what "a little above official recommendations" means for you? (Asking as a 57 yo runner who has added resistance training recently and increased volume of exercise quite a bit in the last 2-3 months). I am thinking 1.2 g/kg might be the sweet spot, but I really don't know!
i would have liked to hear Layman respond to the veggie heads.
I've been eating like what Dr. Longo recommends, lower protein (often even lower than the recommended, 1g/kg body weight. The only drawback is my hemoglobin/iron is sometimes lower, but I never felt weak.
The music in the intro was distracting. Otherwise: overview videos are a good idea. Can you do one on diabetes? The Guardian just did a column on Taubes, and I did not know which of your videos to send them.
Send my episode with Roy Taylor
There is no sound. I have the volume all the way up, but still no sound. I tried on both laptop and phone. : (
It’s working at my end. I would refresh the app or your browser
Extra carbs do not turn into fat ? I believe any extra calories do whether is comes from carbs or fats or sugar? Eating extra plant protein to get all you amino acids is not as efficient and if you are worried about extra protein causing cancer then is this a good strategy?
Are requirements different for pregnant and lactating women?
50g of protein per day would be an extremely impoverished diet (tapioca starch?). If you ate nothing but potatoes every day, you'ld get at least 65 grams.
Aging is NOT a problem. It’s reality.
It is a problem like anything else.
45:40 there is no consistent relationship between protein intake and longevity.
46:13 no relationship between protein intake and lifespan, or even between plant vs animal protein and cvd, cancer, or all-cause mortality.
52:25 i have watched up to here.
53:07 plant protein is inferior to animal protein, but instead of at least 1.2g/kg/d you would need at least 1.3g or 1.4g, so it's not a big difference. iiuc they also say that combining whole grains and legumes is a good idea, but they don't specify if they mean combining them in the same meal or in the same day.
What is a low protein diet and what is a high protein diet. How much do you have to eat as a youngish person to actually increase your risk of cancer?
Re: Walter Longo interview, ive seen a few fruitarians showing how they were able to build muscle on very low protein diets but i wonder if the body doesnt treat muscle microtears (as in when you strength train) as an acute injury and preferentially repair them over, say, the gut or other important organs, or even hair, skin, etc. Therefore you might still be lacking protein in other areas.
Their bad skin and hair quality and quantity (baldness) doesn’t support their low protein approach
@@SouthGarden77 Hhm, maybe it is a bit too early but when I look at (Raw)Christina or Freely they are rather glowing and have great hair. I am not familiar with health data of a raw plus mainly fruit based diet and would never adopt it but the few examples I have seen seem to work somehow.
Anecdotal, but I personally know groups of women in my age group 60+ who are very lean and muscular, but suffer osteoporosis. Many are vegetarians, too.
@@Test-eb9bj Kristina takes sunwarrior protein powder. Freelee... I just can't trust her. None of them train in the gym. They are just thin. I was referring to the fruit-based men.
I’ve come to learn most women and likely many if not most men go from normal bone density to lower bone density (osteopenia and osteoporosis) as they age (for some or many, deteriorating slowly starting in their late 30’s). Growing muscle though should correlate with growing bone but protein and many essential nutrients are needed to grow bone (D3, K2, boron, magnesium, etc). See ingredients to any reputable bone growth supplements. Protein though is also needed. Not excessive but sufficient amounts.
If protein is meant for structure and (enzymic) function, not a (efficient) fuel source, why is it measured as calorie percentage (in addition to per bodyweight)? Is there a sweet spot (per individual achievement) of a minimum protein needed under the condition of the (most) calories only covered by (efficient) carb & (efficient and clean) fat? Glycogen storage also plays a big part of muscle building.
Ingest protein (digest, break down, transport, synthesis.. expel) is an energy-expensive process, organ (kidney) burdening and can be wasteful. How to increase recycling of internal amino acids? Is eating a (low-calorie) protein meal (i.e. without carb or fat) a waste?
Of course, a diet of energy-restriction requires high protein, as protein has to be used as energy instead of macronutrient
Interesting that in Longo’s research people in blue zones had greater longevity but twice as much frailty.
If you get high protein from plant based diet, you don’t get the aging effects of ‘high protein’ (eg. Eating animal foods). Is this statement true or false?
Dr Greger's new book How Not To Age will cover this.
@@skippy6462Greger looks 20 years older than his biological age. Hard pass.
@@LawrenceAugust_
Interestingly most centenarians look vibrant for their age but did not look very young for their age. Gregor might look not so young but live to 110. Someone else might look young but live to 85.
@@knockingseeker Greger doesn't look vibrant either.
To the point of looks and longevity, a Danish twin study seems to indicate a connection of looking younger and living longer. STUDY: "Perceived age as clinically useful biomarker of ageing: cohort study" PMID: 20008378
"Conclusion Perceived age-which is widely used by clinicians as a general indication of a patient’s health-is a robust biomarker of ageing that predicts survival among those aged ≥70 and correlates with important functional and molecular ageing phenotypes."
"Our study shows that in a group of people aged over 70, perceived age is a strong indicator of mortality after adjustment for chronological age. We anticipate that the effect might be even more pronounced in middle age," conclude the authors, led by Professor Kaare Christensen, an expert on ageing at the University of Southern Denmark.
It seems to be a trend with the hardcore 'carnivore' eaters as well, Drs Saladino and Baker both look aged beyond their years. I work in a nursing home and there's a resident in her 90s who looks amazing, she swears that the Olay skin moisturizer that she's used for years is the reason. Who knows, but I've totally started using it haha :)
Have less commercials whatever you have to do I’m sure you can cut these down. There’s too many and they really upset the flow of your talk.💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
Get TH-cam premium and you will have 0! It’s not as simple as you think (for a creator (and I know Simon does a lot))
I’m not going to name names, but some experts in the plant based world have not aged particularly well and don’t look so hot. I’m absolutely convinced plant based eating is the way to go and I’ll never change my mind, but obviously I want to do it properly. At one point, all I cared about was being thin, but this was misguided. I don’t want my hair to thin, nor do I want to look scrawny and frail! Fortunately, there are some role models out there, in the plant based world, who are doing exceptionally well, Simon among them.
I’m plant-based and I agree. I’m a healthy weight and I strength train. I’m not too thin or heavy. (I’m usually within 5-10 lbs of weight target and always track as an athlete). I suspect there may be many plant-based eaters though that don’t think very much about protein levels (or tracking macros. I don’t.). As such, I think we need to say more about protein and getting the right/sufficient amounts, as some likely are getting too much and many others not enough.
How do large herbivores (elephants, zebra) or gorillas get sufficient protein?
They have the ability to convert all that plant material to amino acids and fatty acids via their gut bacteria. Humans don't.
A great podcast. But I felt it was a pity that the protein discussions interrupted the many thousands of rivetting ads. You're so close, but just stick to the ads next time! 🤪
TH-cam ads?
@@TheProofWithSimonHill Yes, way too many unfortunately. Almost more ads than content.
@TheProofWithSimonHill Yes, they were cutting in every 2-3 minutes when I tried watching this from the youtube app on my phone.
Weird, not for me in US. A lot less ads.
Enjoyed this very much but was disappointed that you had no kidney specialists giving their opinion about protein intake. They are not too keen on too much protein.
Once you have kidney disease you should eat less protein yes, but this does not mean that higher protein diets lead to kidney disease!
@@TheProofWithSimonHill True. I listen to many lectures about kidney disease because all of my friends have CKD. At 73, I do not have it. I am vegan. They are not. I have heard some credible kidney doctors state that excess protein contributes to the development of kidney disease. So, check it out. I would love to listen to discussions that provide some solid info either way.
Does Longo have a definition of “frailty”?
Have you switched from a vegan diet to a omnivore or carnivore one, since this video was broadcast?
And if so, why?
No, I haven’t
@@TheProofWithSimonHillyou may, as you age.... but I will probably be dead, or at least no longer following, by then. ❤
Practically all super old people are frail, which makes you wonder if it’s possible to be otherwise.
My grandad was not frail even when he died at 97. Good genetics I suppose although he was very sporty all his life and was an early raw vegan for part of his life. He ate meat pies for the final few years.
I work in a nursing home, it definitely seems to be an 'all' , at least in the environment I work in. I'd like to think that by being aware, and taking small steps now in my mid-40s, I can beat the odds but realistically probably not.
As one becomes geriatric, concentrated nutrition would be better. Even at 68, I can't put plates of food away like I used to. Number 1, weight gain is extremely problematic for me, even though I have a good sweaty workout several hours per week. Number 2, as we age, we just don't eat so much.
I personally know aged people who live on Campbels soup, pasta, and processed grainfoods like bread and cereals. No wonder they are frail. Added protein in the form of meat, dairy, and eggs would probably make a difference.
I personally know a lot of (mostly thin and fit) vegan/vegetarian women my age who have advanced osteopenia and full blown osteoporosis.
I think many women don’t track macros/protein as much. They/we don’t realize you need protein and certain nutrients to build bone. I can see how this easily just happens. More information about this topic is needed. Knowledge is power. We already know more than prior frail and/or overweight generations. We need more information and learning on protein and always in relation to health span, muscles & bone density.
I was hard on my body for years,but ate any and everything! What is wrong with my health has nothing to do with diet especially protein but maybe rather malnutrition.I’m 70 and plan on making longer than anyone in my family,mom,pop,aunts and uncles all died in their 70’s! I’m doing better than they did and I do eat meat and vegetables and what makes me fat is grains! I love noodles,pasta,bread,but they go straight to my hips and belly! Eat about half the protein some of my friends eat but after watching this I think I will eat more because I can’t see myself becoming frail from lack of protein. I have other issues,copd,from when I was younger,but I walk between 4000-10000 steps daily and I pretty much eat what I want. I don’t think protein has that much to do with longevity, I don’t even think the amount the scale says you weigh but rather how you live and mental attitude! Good luck to all who are trying to live forever,not gonna happen but you all should concentrate more on How you live?If you’re not happy what’s the point?
Beyond Burgers are the new Snackwells 😢 This podcast should come with a warning of people who want to spew without humility.
Hey were are the female doctors ?
8:58 , 10:05
Yee
A master class on how to build muscle from a bunch of guys who have never built muscle 😂 other than Simon
You can know a lot about something without ever doing it.
But what if plants are killing us very very slowly and we can't notice it?
It would be picked up on in studies. Same way we pick up on any chronic toxicity like lead.
1:31:42 I don't think Dr. Gabrielle Lyon and Dr. Layman will agree with this, considering that their whole health approach is muscle-centric.
However outcome data would suggest that this advice is perfectly fine for muscle and strength.
@@TheProofWithSimonHill with all due respect, I don’t think Dr. Longo’s findings in mice where mTOR & IGF1 elevate cancer risk for example, can be extrapolated to humans who exercise and consume a moderate amount of plant protein. Regardless of the age, I would like to think the body is wise to re-direct the effects of those growth factors to repair muscle which offers a huge metabolic advantage rather than making a tumor grow. Otherwise, all the body builders will be full of tumors, even omnivore lifters, which is NOT the case.
Longo is not against protein just higher than sufficient levels. He cites the results of many studies. We can all take the data and decide for ourselves.
Conclusion... 2.2g/kg body weight for the win. Cheers to protein farts
Simon - Dr. Gardner's view on Protein: 1. Stop obsessing about protein!! 2. Most Americans and Westerners get more protein then they need. 2. I've never met / spoken to an MD who has seen /diagnosed a protein defeciency. ( then you proceed to talk about protein / obsess about protein for the next 2 hours ). Also - in this episode I thought your "bias" for consuming extra protein was fairly obvious ( pushing the doctors to admit / say that you were justified/would be OK and your health wouldn't be adverseley effected - based on your overconsumption.
Yes biased in the sense that 1.6 g per Kg is superior for strength. I haven’t yet seen data that when that’s coming from plant protein sources it negatively affects longevity. I also agree the primary reason we have such high sarcopenia rates is our sedentary lifestyles (lack of resistance training) not protein.
Did I hear that right? Did Valter Longo say he discouraged oncologists from recommending higher protein intake for women with cancer because these women didn't want to gain muscle?
SO MANY MEN.. Before considering giving it a listen I question if women are even mentioned here? What about studies relevant for women in all stages of life vs 20 yo men?
No one is low in protein? My endocrinologist tested me on a panel of things and the only problem I have is low protein.
Low blood protein has many causes and the cause is rarely low intake, although it is possible in extreme cases.
Some big disagreements in this space… all from experts. Hard to know how to interpret this.
The fact you have thousands of plant based eaters eating less than RDA or just not counting and thriving so too much focus has been on protein