I had a 1972 Cougar base model with the 351C 2V automatic. It would spin the tires as long as you kept your foot on the floor. My 60 year old mom borrowed it one day. She floored it to get across a busy intersection and spun the tires all the way across. She told me she went back to see the mark. She loved the car and was sad when I traded it for a Duster 340. I'd choose the 1975 Thunderbird and the 1975 F150.
I dated a girl who’s dad had a ‘71 Cougar and drove it like a maniac. I found out later from a friend of my brother who bought the car and said it was 351c 2v. It was a quick car.
Windsor and Modified/400 crankshafts do not interchange without a lot of modification. Back before stroker cranks became common used to use a 400 crank in a Windsor. Was a good bit of work. Counterweights have to be turned down, and some machine work has to be done at the back and front of the crank. Would need a lot of mallory metal to balance.
My favorite Ford engine episode thus far; these are the engines popularly used in many of the cars I regularly worked on in my first decade of wrenching. My father had a ‘79 Lincoln Continental Collector Series with the 400M in which the crank shaft actually broke!!! We bought a used 400M which was in a 1975 full-size wagon from our local dismantler and I installed that as a replacement. Worked just fine for many years. Thank you Jay!
@@What.its.like. Really crazy! Prior to that he had another 1979 domestic sedan wherein the crankshaft also broke though not too surprisingly as it was the first series Oldsmobile 350 Diesel - the rather trouble-prone type. GM gave us a new short block and the dealership did the replacement for a modest fee. It’s not like he was driving them hard either! We were told the Ford 400 crank failure was probably a casting flaw that showed up after twelve years of regular use.
We had a 73 LTD with a 400, and it would hurt feelings. It would do the one wheel smoking burnout the whole time it was in first gear up to about 60 mph and would not shift out of second gear till it reached 105 and would bury that 120 mph speedo like it was nothing at all. Mom ran it hot a 98 k, and dad put a low mileage 400 out of a 77 Ltd, and it was never the same. I was too young to investigate but often wonderd why.
Had the 351 Cleveland in my 1972 Torino Fastback Sport And the 351M/400 in my 78 T-Birds. Both were super outstanding engines. Not a single solitary breakdown in over 400,000 miles combined in the 2 vehicles. The Torino is still running down the road. Sold it many years ago & the guy is still driving it. The T Bird was totaled by a stolen van driven by a bank robber in St.Louis,Mo. in 1988.
It's about time you covered this underrated engine. I asked you to cover this before you even did engine episodes. I had one of these engines in my 1970 Montego. I would usually run into a guy with a 70 Torino on my way home from work at midnight. We would race up the avenue for about 2 miles. I usually one, but it was close. I grew up, sold it for a beetle so I would have no temptation to drive crazy. I'll take the 77 150. Thanks.
I tried to do this a couple weeks ago and I kept running in the walls with different information information. I couldn’t find the Max horsepower for the 351 Cleveland… as well as other information spotty Not making excuses for myself or anything but I had allergies for the last month and I just didn’t feel like doing anything anything anything that got too complicated it just I was like let’s do something different . I’m going to try to do the wankle rotary just the first one I wrote a script for that, but it disappeared so I’ll have to totally do it again no big deal lol =)
Can't wait for the Australian Cleveland episode, very interesting engines. Australia only produced a 302C and the 351C in the Cleveland family. They were produced at the Geelong plant in Victoria. I have 3 vehicles fitted with 302 Cleveland's and have own 8 vehicles over the years fitted with the 302C 2v and 1 with a 351C 2V. If you need any info on the 302 engine or 351 engine I do have some info I can send you.
I will take any information you have because it seems like I’m limited on information here depending on where I’m at I have different results. I don’t know what’s weird. I found that out when I went to Georgia that Google search is different in Georgia than it is here, same thing when I went to Michigan I had access to the information that I don’t have access to the same information here. Weird What_its_like@yahoo.com
@@What.its.like. On Firefox, you get a 'pop-up' allowing you to block your location when using Google search. With any browser that 'request' can and should be blocked or you get the skewed results you noticed.
This was a particularly good engine family video, Jay. Well done. I once had a '73 Cougar XR-7 convertible with the 351C (2V). That car, even with its extra weight, would really move! I've also driven a '73 XR-7 hardtop with the 351 CJ (AKA "Q" Code), which was a real barn burner for the year. One thing that everyone neglects to mention about a lot of V-8 engines during this period; even though horsepower ratings were down, torque ratings were still usually pretty good. And I'll take the '78 Cougar XR-7 and the '82 F-150.
I have a 1978 Ford LTD ll with the Sport Appearance Package. So I'll keep that over the 78 Cougar. For the truck, a I'll choose the 1979 F-150. My LTD ll has the Cleveland based 351M and it suits me fine...as a cruiser. Even though it's low on the horsepower, it has plenty of torque. It ain't a drag racer by any means.
Yes Cleveland production started in Australia in 1973 and the Ford Australia Geelong Casting Centre cast 302 Cleveland's and 351 Cleveland's from then untill the last Aussie Clevelands in 1985/6 in Aussie F100 to F350s and 1983/4 for Aussie Falcons , Fairlanes , Fairmonts, and LTDs.
Don’t forget the 302 Cleveland, it is a 335 series as well. By the way you aren’t rounding off, the bore is 4 inches and the strokes were 3,31/2 and 4 inches. The 302C used 2V ports with closed chambers.
I have to throw that in there because every source that I use generally rounds and it actually kind of upsets me. I don’t understand why we can’t use the actual numbers… The 302C was an Australian market engine that we never got here in the state going to cover it in a different video
I remember the 65,and newer Olds V-8 engine family used the same timing gear integral cast housing and the fuel pump mounted to the housing with the flat metal cover behind the. Fuel pump.
@@patrickmcgoldrick8234 the man that designed the clevland engine was first a employee at Genral Moters Oldsmobile. But Ford hired him on to design a new engine for them. Lol. That is why they have that design. Look at any other ford engine & the fuel pump will be a different than the clevland design. Lol! Good eye if you didn't know about that.
@patrickmcgoldrick8234 idk? That would be news to me. I know they do not share the same GM Olds traits. They were also released to the public two yrs before the clevland. Not sure when they hired that guy??
I am not sure to swear,but I remember that I read about the development of that engine family in Collectable Automobile Magazine.and I read that a former Oldsmobile engineer had his hand in the design of that engine.Thats all I can say,and there is good chance I might be wrong.
Two stories: my best friend had a 70 Mach 1 w/ 351C-4v. It was a pretty fast car. He rebuilt the engine to Boss 351 specs, including the Boss ca & solid lifters. Now, *that* was a seriously fast car! (Altho, a 440 Mopar blew us away, making us feel like the brakes were on). The 351M (the M is for Modified) and 400 engines were real dogs. Mom had a 400-2v in her 72 LTD, and it was gutless. I did have a customer with a 72 LTD wagon with 400, and it was astonishingly fast. WYR= any of the trucks. None of the cars would even fit in my garage!
Awesome story thank you so much for sharing those memories. I never drove anything with a 351 Cleveland or the modified engine but I did own a 67 Mustang with a 351 Windsor and I really like that engine., I ran it HOT by accident a couple times and it didn’t do any damage to the engine. I thought maybe I would warp a head or something like that but it was pretty good to me. I got to drive a Lincoln Mark five with a 400 in it believe it or not, it’s faster than a 450 SL Mercedes so that’s telling you something. I never got that car. It’s a complete turd in my opinion. .. Lincoln mark five with a 400 accelerates very brisk but it’s faster than a 450 Mercedes.. I worked at a Classic Car dealership over the summertime and I got to drive a 76 Eldorado convertible a 79 Lincoln Mark five and the 450 SL Mercedes all back to back what gets me is you could buy both the Lincoln and the Cadillac and a garage to put them in and probably have money left over for the cost of the Mercedes it just I don’t know rant over lol Great choice =)
I agree, I had a 70 1/2 Black Falcon that had a solid lifter cam and the closed chamber 4V heads. It took a 428CJ to beat it. The 400 was the engine that could have been, but the 3 inch crank and weak casting made it a 350 hp max and 385 ft lbs. over that it wasn’t if it blew up but when. The 2.75,crank bearings interchangeably with the FE, the cam bearings too.
@@61rampy65 the sheriff’s department where I grew up had some 77-78 LTD IIs with 400s. They were generally dogs. With light bar would top out around 105. There were a couple of them, however, that got Edelbrock SP2P 2V intakes and possibly Holley 2 barrel carbs, maybe even aftermarket cans. The cats were purportedly cut open, contents dumped, and welded back together. Those cars were said to be pretty fast. I never rode in one but did see the the undersheriff’s car after he got a new vehicle. It was at the county garage. We popped the hood and saw the Edelbrock intake. Back in the malaise era Edelbrock had collaborated with Holley to offer a smog level maniford/carb upgrade that was smog certified and which may have necessitated the two barrel cars. Back then, smog equipment was new and legend had it that an enthusiast tampering with it made them a”federal violators.” Where I lived we didn’t have smog testing requirements so it was very much a moot point.
Hi Jay! It's too bad the 351C wasn't able to stay around longer. Along with the Boss 429 Semi-Hemi and the Ford 427 cammer, it was one of Ford's most technically advanced engines. Finally Ford had something to compete with the 350 Chev, and they let it wither on the vine. Shame. WYR's #1 Lincoln, Baby! #2 1977 Ford Truck. My daddy drove a '77 extra cab LONG BED. That was one LONG truck! Was a baby puke tan color. It had the 300 cubic inch six in it, and was EASY to work on! Lots of memories of that truck! Never did drive it, though. Was a three-speed manual!
Awesome choices =) Thank you so much for sharing all that insight greatly appreciate it. It sounds like your truck is pretty cool with the tree on the tree.
They always called this family of engines “ small blocks”, but when compared to the windsors they were big broad motors. It’s more like a “ mid block” to me. Smaller than a 460 but bigger than a Windsor. I was in high school when they killed the 351C, it was still the stuff of legends for years after. And highly sought after, especially the 4v heads. Fords 352, 360, 390 family was considered big blocks , but weren’t much bigger than the Cleveland’s . They were ALL very thirsty, netting around 8-10mpg no matter what the displacement.
My mother in law had a pinto in the 70s. It had the automatic trns and couldn’t get out of its own way. The stick shift models were peppy and fun, the autos could hardly pull a hill.
I would take the 1979:Mark V. My first experience with the 335s was a 351M (for Mediocre) in my parents 1975 Mercury Montego wagon. I’ll give credit to it in that it had decent torque, but either the timing chain broke or oil pump froze screwing up the distributor. It got traded quick after it got out of the shop. My dad never did say what was the problem but indicated they wanted to drop in another motor. May have had something to do with a 16 year old manual shifting and such but the 335s did occasionally have those aforementioned problems. I bought a 71 Cougar XR7 for $500 in 89. It had an H code Cleveland. I added dual exhaust and a cheap aftermarket air cleaner with double stacked elements. It was not a Boss or Q code but it ran pretty well considering it was high miles. It would scratch 2nd up until it got close to 150k miles and the FMX, which had allegedly been rebuilt at some point, started showing its age. Nevertheless it was still running and driving when I sold it. The H code with an automatic in a Cougar would get around 14 mpg on regular. I remember in a couple of occasions when the tranny forgot to shift it’s self into 2nd when my foot was glued to the floor and it revved past 6k. It was still pulling and didn’t come apart.
Awesome I like that M stands for mediocre, monstrosity, I was going to add monument, because it’s essentially a boat anchor.. I don’t understand why Ford did that why they had to existing 351s that were great and then they made a horrible one.. Thank you so much for sharing all the insight and information as well as experiences that you had with the engines. Greatly appreciated.
@@What.its.like. I had understood that the Cleveland design was intended to meet tightening emissions and fuel economy standards on the horizon. Not sure how true that actually was but obviously didn’t hit the mark. I also understood there was a 400 4V that was considered at least for cars, light trucks and police but didn’t make it to production. The 351M/400 can be built to make good power by virtue of the 2V cylinder head as its valves and ports are pretty large to begin with, but it’s probably more cost effective to build something 351W based. Ford has had a bad habit of not following thru with performance beginning in 1970 when they pulled out of racing, or when they went for years building fox body Stangs that were a good place to start but needed the aftermarket.
The term "malaise era" is bit of a misnomer. Yes, mixing exhaust with a leaner air/fuel mixture did rob some power. Things are always less efficient when government gets involved. But the main reason for the term is many compared power stats, '70 vs '71, unaware. There was enough power if you selected the right vehicle. Quality is where the industry failed us the most. You could not go wrong with any of the 351s. For all the struggles that experimentation the malaise era brought, look how it's paid off in power and mostly in efficiency.
My comment was compared to the 351 Windsor and 351 Cleveland 351M just didn’t live up to those other two.. Because it was like the 400 it was never meant to be a powerhouse of an engine whereas with the Cleveland and the Windsor, you could build them to make more power and I’m sure you could do things to the 351m but I’ve read the casting of the block had some issues they had some predation problems with both the 400 and the 351m but I left all that out because I didn’t want too much people to fight in comments lol
The 400 had a couple a bad production years. If I recall correctly 76 and 77. I was only 8 at the time and my parents bought a new 77 Thunderbird with the 400. My older brother had just started working for Ford, when he told our parents the car was recalled because the block would crack down the valley. You would think you would get a new engine, but no the fix was a new block. My bro had to swap all the internals over.
WYR: Round one - any other them. Round two - 1980 Ford F150, I had one with the inline six, great truck. And hey - lay off the Thunderbird, some of us are sensitive 😂. Seriously - thank you as always, great info! ~ Chuck
My first car, a 71 Torino GT, 351C, 4V "Premium fuel' 4 gear, factory Hurst. Great sound, lots of power, BUT, 4 wheel, non-assisted drum breaks (heart stopping).
The bore spacing that is used on all ford small blocks is, 4.38 spacing first used in the ford Y block. I have a Ford heavy duty Truck Manual from 1955. In that manual Ford refers to the 272-y block as a small block, they also call the 317 Lincoln Y block as a big block. The myth that Ford never called their engines, Small or Big block is not true.
Although there was no direct replacement, the new for ‘82 3.8L 90 degree V6 shares design with the C and M motors; canted valves. The 385 series BBF was discontinued in ‘79 in passenger cars and redone that year for trucks until phased out in the 90s. External balanced, and new casting cores. The later blocks are very high quality compared to pre ‘79 castings IMO.
A 400 is a better engine for a truck, because it has more torque. At one time you couldn't get proper pistons to build a good 400. Now Tim Meyer at TMeyer incorporated makes pistons with the proper deck height that they will not detonate. the main problem the 400 engine hd was the piston was .070 down in the bore. That is why the engine was famous for detonating. The new pistons make for being able to make some big torque and horsepower. With a good cam and 4 barrel intake 500 is easy to reach in a good drivable package.
It’s amazing that we become attached to things simply because of random nostalgic memories. I developed an attachment to the 400 engine for no other reason than the fact that my parents had a 1974 LTD brougham with a 400. I was 10 at the time. It was their FIRST EVER New car. They kept it until I Became a driver. So it’s engrained in my memory. I even remember the fact that I could floor it , and it would shift out of 1st at 40mph. I remember I was able to get it to 110 mph before I chickened out. I remember it was one of few cars that could spin on takeoff. Of course my parents never knew their 16-18 year old son did that in their car 😂 . Anyway, i somehow feel a bit personally attacked when people criticize the 400. I know it makes no sense 🤷🏾♂️
I had a 70 Ranchero with a built 351 Cleveland cc heads. and it would drop to first gear if I floored it going 50 on the highway. In a quarter mile drag race it would not get out of second gear!
I worked on a Lincoln that had a 430 in an it was a nightmare trying to find parts... ended up 460 swapping it ....Iv worked on the 430 an the 352.... wired stuff
The 430 was a "MEL" engine roughly based on the FE block but with many differences and too many variations along the way, some lasting only half a model year. Properly restoring the oddball ones can be tough as some parts have been unavailable for decades and were never plentiful to begin with.
Thank you I’m happy to dig this episode. There was a lot of contradicting information. Specially, with the 351 modified I was going to try to release this episode yesterday, but I couldn’t find enough slides that talked about the engines.
How about an episode of the F head jeep. Came in both 4 & 6 cyl. I worked in an automotive machine shop ( Napa) in the 70's and 80's. Saw a lot of goofy engines. Thanks for the video.
@@cjespers we already did one on the F-head We haven’t done the Go Devil or the lightning yet, which were the L head versions Willys hurricane engines 134, 161 th-cam.com/video/P_EWp-8-45w/w-d-xo.html
I had a 1977 F-250 4x4 Hi Boy with a 400/4speed manual, that truck wasn’t fast, but it would pull a trailer better than any truck I’ve had other than my Ram/Cummins. People like to hate the 400, but I loved mine.
My dad remembers replacing crankshafts in the 400s including the 351M,Could not keep bottom ends in these piles of junk.Came with bad crankshafts from the factory
The 335 engine family was introduced in 1969 for the 1970 model year. In 1969, if you got a 351 it was a Windsor. Right, the "M" is for modified. The 400 c.i. V8 always a big-block bolt pattern on the rear and when the 351M was introduced it also had the big block bolt pattern. As a side note, the 300 c.i. inline 6 also had a big block bolt pattern(big block refers to the 385 series. Usually the 351C-4v used a C-6 automatic. Because all 351W and 351C shared the same bolt pattern with the 302, they used a special C6 known as the small-case C6. The 302's came with the smaller C4, but we would swap them out for the small-case C6. We would have to modify the drive shaft. My parents special ordered the new 1974 1/2 Gran Torino Elite, with the 400 c.i. V8. Yes, it had lots of torque and did decent burnouts, but because of the square engine design, it didn't rev as well as it's 351 brothers. Never had a problem pulling my Ford 302 V8 powered ski boat, but acceleration was another story. I had to plan my move if I intended to pass another vehicle. All those '75 Ford cars were turds and the largest engine you could get was the 400M. I'd go for the Lincoln Mark V. It had atleast another year of that body style, so you just change the Mark V emblems to Mark VI and nobody would be the wiser. It was about the same as when someone would put the Lexus ES 250 or ES 300 emblems on their Toyota Camry's. lol
There was also another 'small case' C6 with shorter gearing in 1st meant for truck and van use. It had some heavier-duty parts inside and isn't interchangeable on many of the internals but bolts up identically. IMHO it' the best light truck auto trans Ford ever made.
@@automatedelectronics6062 this piece didn’t mention that Cleveland 4V close chamber heads on a 302 block “made” the Boss 302 for 1969. While not exactly a 335, the heads made the engine perform.
@@P_RO_ Never heard of that one. Every one I'd seen when they were new, if truck or van had a 302, they had a C4. This included 3/4 ton and 1 ton. Any other engine and they got the C6. We ran a fleet of 1976-1978 passenger vans with 302's, they were special ordered as heavy duty as they could come, they all had C4's. A little later after Ford introduced the FIOD, these replaced the C4 behind the 302. The other engines got C6's with the usual internal gearing until the E4OD came out. Would have liked a lower 1st gear.
What I find really cool is how you could order these engines from the factory to the extent demonstrated here back in the day. Car builders selling to people that wanted to modify their engines and treating them accordingly. Name a car company that does that today.
Bill you and I both know that the car industry has lost so much in the last 50 years and they lost even more if you go back even further than that you could get a car custom tailored to your needs and have some thing that nobody else has.. not even Rolls-Royce offers that anymore. Yes, they might custom do a couple features or you could get a custom color but your car the body shell is going to be the same as somebody else… And because those cars were rarely shared with a public buying public now has no idea what they are literally missing
First pick 78 Cougar XR7, used to be a lot of them around back then, and the 77-79 T birds Second the truck I used to own before rust consumed it from the roof, down 79 F 250 300 six 4 speed manual. Paid $7200.00 for that one at age 22 drove it 24 years 200,000 miles then bought its replacement in 2003. Engine suggestions GMC V6 truck engines and International 6 and 8 cylinder engines.
Awesome choices great engine suggestions. I’ve been trying to put an international episode together of the four-cylinder the slant for that they made, but I not sure if I should cover the V-8 in that episode as well, or if I should just strictly stick to the four cylinders… sometimes I’ll get halfway through a script for an engine episode and I’ll hit a brick wall where I can’t find anymore information or something crazy I’ve been working on an episode for the wankle rotary engine just going to talk about the very first one but then I got allergies and I lost the script so I have to totally do that whole thing all over again.. I might do that one next week I’m not entirely sure I want green diamond red diamond blue diamond engines the international six cylinders that were in the early international trucks
@@What.its.like. Maybe cover the engines individually so you'll have more future content to do vid's on. Beware the Wankel- it's history and use is like a three-volume set of dictionary-sized books, a very long and complicated history.
@@What.its.like. Do the v8's seperate they were far ahead of everbody else during design phase in the 50"s . Canted valves, squish chambers , gear drive cam, reverse flow cooling(coolest water into heads first not the block) good oiling, high pressure water pump.
Mercury (though really not a fan of any of them), 1975 F-150 Spng sounded like Led Zeppelin Black Dog to start, but on further listening, no. A neighbor had this T-bird for years. The leather seats were covered and remained pristine white, while the body slowly rusted away.
That's a new one on me! I didn't know the 351M used or could use Windsor parts. I also wasn't aware that it was actually a 352, rounded off. WYR: I'll take all the pickups, and you can keep the cars. 😊 Toodles, everyone! Until next time.
I could never understand why the 351W was so different than the 351C ! It made finding - ordering and replacing parts more difficult at least for me ! But i prob would take the 351C over the W !
I meant to add a few more fun facts,the 351 Cleveland 4 ,and 2 barrel both used the small block Ford pattern,the same as the 240,300,late 65 and newer 289,302 ,and 351W.351/400M used the 485 Bell housing pattern,which is the same pattern as the 429/460 . One more fun fact the 351/400 M used the block and heads,the 400 is a stroked 351.The Mark V ,the F-250, another great job Jay.
So much wrong there. It is not a 400M it is just 400 the 400 could be had in the 385 big block bellhousing pattern AND the Small Block bellhousing pattern. The 400 was NOT a stroked 351M . The 351M was a de stoked 400 using the 351W crank casting.
@@matthewq4b You are also wrong about fact that 351M does not use a 351 W crank. Both cranks have the same bearing Size, but the M crank is a much heavier Crank would not fit into a 351 W block, the counterweights are much to large. There was a 400 block with Both Bolt patterns, it is rare, not too many know about that block.
@@mylanmiller9656 Where did I say same crank ? I said same CASTING. I spent over 40 years as a Ford power train engineer I think I know what I'm talking about... and you did what exactly ?
The Crank is not even similar to a Windsor it is a Copy of the Cleveland Crank Casting With different main size. You must have been the guy that designed the Edsel.
still have my favorite 1978 f 250 with a 400. don't understand why the bothered to make the 351m -it weighs about the same and gets about the same gas mileage with less power and torque
I didn’t know the 400 was available in that generation Thunderbird. I thought they all had either the 429 or 460. I think they were available in the next generation foe a while.
@@What.its.like. I guess being old has some advantages. 😅. I remember the behemoths 73, 74, and 75 Tbirds my brother had that were the Ford version of the Mark IV. But the 77 bird seemed to Partly take the place of the Grand Torino Elite, while the LTD 2 filled the gap left by the “regular Torino and grand Torino. I believe the 302, 351W , 351M and 400 were engine choices for 1977 and 1978. I think the 400 was dropped in 1979. By the way, I love your videos. No one can be 100% perfect. And you have information that appeals either to my nostalgia or my curiosity
About 2,000 early '72 T-Birds were offered with a 400. Then later the 77-79 T-Birds were offered with a 302, either 351 and 400. Have seen both 351M/400 with a FMX, Small block bolt pattern, or a big block C6 trans behind them.
@@socalltd I knew the 77-79 series T bird was offered with the 400 for a while. I’ve never seen a 400 in the 72-76 T birds. , only the 429-460. As for the FMX , I’ve seen it offered in everything from the 302 to the 400. It could have been offered with other engines. I’m just not knowledgeable enough to know. Not sure if it was ever offered in the 429-460 in any application. I know it had the reputation of being a tough transmission. My dad liked it more than the c4 or c6. It was less temperamental. But the cast iron case made it heavy.
@@dmandman9 The FMX was for medium duty uses in certain applications with small blocks and some 400's. The majority of 400's and all 429-460's came with the C6.
The real meaning of the "M" in these engines is "mistake" 🤣 I've heard from several sources that Ford needed more basic 351's than 'Windsor' could make and that upcoming pollution standards required something new, both of which don't really make sense. But whatever, the "M" series came along and just added more confusion to the 351 game. One major difference between the 351C and the other 351s was main bearing size; the Cleveland had smaller main journals which was better for high RPM's, as the 3" mains in the others saw a bearing surface speed pushing the limits of what plain bearings could do which limits their redline, and spun mains are a known issue when you rev them really fast. Relatively few Clevelands were performance versions- most were 2V grocery-getters with 2-bolt main caps and tons of 'fake' performance versions exist. Those (and even the 351M) can be built to give some impressive numbers, but the 4-bolt 351C will always be king of this class of engines. Some later Ford 'crate' motors had the "C" main journal size done with the "W" block, and those can rival most 351C builds. The "M" series did well enough for it's intended uses but fuel mileage was always poor with these engines. On WYR I once had a 75 T-turd, bought on the cheap when I was broke. Mine had a 351W 2V, a small trunk, a smaller fuel tank, and a tiny back seat in a too-large car. It's only virtue was a smooth ride with lots of legroom up front. I wouldn't choose it or any of the others; they are all turds. On 2, I like the looks of the 79 best, but they had plastic grilles which to me puts them out of the 'classic' era. NTT "Highway Star" is one of those songs which will live forever- a great choice from you.
I love that song =) I like your M meaning I was going to add the M stands for monument, because it was a boat anchor ( or so I’ve been told never had one) thank you so much for sharing all that insight and information
@@What.its.like. I guess it was a monument to the end of Ford making a decent small V8 engine- boat anchors for sure. It would be decades before they made anything new and good again, and as usual they threw some bad one in there too. It's hard to be a Ford fan sometimes, but I am.
If the 460 Ford is called a Lima engine because it is Cast in Lima, the 351 Windsor is called a Windsor because it is Cast in Windsor, and the Cleveland was cast in Cleveland and called Cleveland them how Come the M engine that was cast in Michigan is not called a Michigan. If you follow the pattern The M should be for Michigan. The M block has MCC Cast right into the Block.
@@cammontreuil7509 yes ford tried really hard to make a turd out of The 400 and 351M engine that could have been a sound engine. For starters why was the Piston .070 " down in the bore if they didn't want it to detonate. There is data from the 1950's, that states large deck Clearance will cause detonation.
I still don't understand why Ford did the 351M instead of just continuing the 351C. Obviously with CAFE standards, engines larger than the 302 couldn't be used in cars after 1981 or so, until port fuel injection was developed.
Ford could use one crank for both the W and M. The bell-housing bolt pattern is big block sized and could use the C6 which was a plus IMO. The 351M is simply a rod shortened 400 and cheaper to keep one engine family (beside the Windsor). Also factory hot rods were dead at that time since the C was the HiPo small block. Perfect storm of OPEC, the EPA and insurance costs.
Good video, but being nitpicky there was no 427 CJ, it was a 428 CJ. Technically a 427 was actually a 425 and the 428 was actually a 427, so there is that. Good info otherwise.
I totally meant to fix that and I totally forgot to thank you so much for pointing that out I was like there is no 427 cobra jet that’s supposed to say 428 great ear for catching that =)
I think the 400 gets an undeserved bad rap. Twenty year old me proved that they could regularly run three quarts low on oil without any issues. When it started to tick (usually every two weeks), you put three quarts in. Good as new.😏
@@paul-er7ho awesome choices. I have nothing against the Thunderbird. I think they great cars. I just see that all the time in the comment section and figured I’d say it a couple times it has a nice ring to it… I love the Mark as well. I think in the Bert orange color or maroon or the two top colors but realistically didn’t really make a bad looking color of that car gray or battleship gray is a bit acquired taste but all things considered that came in some really nice colors
@What.its.like. there is no debate. It shares the a bore spacing with the 260, 289, 302, the windsor, even the 400. All small blocks. It's why heads & crankshafts interchange. You can't put a big block head on a small block.
Tho I agree it's a point of debate within the ford community check out this trend on the topic ( not getting information from trends but they make a few points) fords aren't really classified as big block small block, doing this channel has taught me that also ford and Chrysler engines have complicated engine lineages.. most ford people will say different engine family's not big block small block
@What.its.like. u can NOT put big block heads on a small block. The bore spacing is not the same therfore cylinders don't line up. You can put small block heads on a small block. Like Cleveland heads on a windsor or a 302 or a 289. 400s have 2v Cleveland heads from the factory. They all have the same bore spacing. They are by definition small blocks. And your point about fords not really having such a thing has been disproven by ford. They did refer to them as such. Big & small blocks. Now they did have engine families & that is how they mostly referred to them. But ford themselves put out a advertisement of a "Big block 427" mustang in 68. Bore spacing is how such a label is determined. Now ford has a few different size Big blocks, all bigger bore spacing than the small blocks, but the small block bore spacing is just that! It went unchanged. Windsors & 335 series engines all use the same bore spacing hence, "small block"! 260, 289, 302, 351w, 351c, 351m, & 400 fall in this category. It's why the heads DO interchange. You can NOT put a FE head on & you can NOT put a 385 series head on any of those engines. They can NOT be modified to except those heads either. Becouse cylinders don't line up! Why??? Becouse they are SMALL BLOCKS.
I had a 73 thunder Chicken... 🤔 Long Long Car 😂 rode good 👍 My Uncle had an 1976 F - 130 ... With a 351 Mistake Never ran when it rained 🤷 After 1963 year model I'm done with Ford Trucks !!!!!!! Enjoy your day Happy Motoring ✌️🤠
Deep Purple Highway Star?
Yeah buddy that’s it. Congratulations you got it. =)
Yep, great song, kinda brings me back.
The
I had a 1972 Cougar base model with the 351C 2V automatic. It would spin the tires as long as you kept your foot on the floor. My 60 year old mom borrowed it one day. She floored it to get across a busy intersection and spun the tires all the way across. She told me she went back to see the mark. She loved the car and was sad when I traded it for a Duster 340. I'd choose the 1975 Thunderbird and the 1975 F150.
Awesome choices thank you so so much for sharing your experience with this engine as well.
I dated a girl who’s dad had a ‘71 Cougar and drove it like a maniac. I found out later from a friend of my brother who bought the car and said it was 351c 2v. It was a quick car.
Windsor and Modified/400 crankshafts do not interchange without a lot of modification. Back before stroker cranks became common used to use a 400 crank in a Windsor. Was a good bit of work. Counterweights have to be turned down, and some machine work has to be done at the back and front of the crank. Would need a lot of mallory metal to balance.
.
My favorite Ford engine episode thus far; these are the engines popularly used in many of the cars I regularly worked on in my first decade of wrenching. My father had a ‘79 Lincoln Continental Collector Series with the 400M in which the crank shaft actually broke!!!
We bought a used 400M which was in a 1975 full-size wagon from our local dismantler and I installed that as a replacement. Worked just fine for many years. Thank you Jay!
Awesome happy you dig this one =)
That’s crazy the crank shaft broke
@@What.its.like. Really crazy! Prior to that he had another 1979 domestic sedan wherein the crankshaft also broke though not too surprisingly as it was the first series Oldsmobile 350 Diesel - the rather trouble-prone type. GM gave us a new short block and the dealership did the replacement for a modest fee. It’s not like he was driving them hard either! We were told the Ford 400 crank failure was probably a casting flaw that showed up after twelve years of regular use.
We had a 73 LTD with a 400, and it would hurt feelings. It would do the one wheel smoking burnout the whole time it was in first gear up to about 60 mph and would not shift out of second gear till it reached 105 and would bury that 120 mph speedo like it was nothing at all. Mom ran it hot a 98 k, and dad put a low mileage 400 out of a 77 Ltd, and it was never the same. I was too young to investigate but often wonderd why.
Had the 351 Cleveland in my 1972 Torino Fastback Sport And the 351M/400 in my 78 T-Birds. Both were super outstanding engines. Not a single solitary breakdown in over 400,000 miles combined in the 2 vehicles. The Torino is still running down the road. Sold it many years ago & the guy is still driving it. The T Bird was totaled by a stolen van driven by a bank robber in St.Louis,Mo. in 1988.
thats crazy , did he crash into you after robbing the bank?
It's about time you covered this underrated engine. I asked you to cover this before you even did engine episodes. I had one of these engines in my 1970 Montego. I would usually run into a guy with a 70 Torino on my way home from work at midnight. We would race up the avenue for about 2 miles. I usually one, but it was close. I grew up, sold it for a beetle so I would have no temptation to drive crazy. I'll take the 77 150. Thanks.
I tried to do this a couple weeks ago and I kept running in the walls with different information information. I couldn’t find the Max horsepower for the 351 Cleveland… as well as other information spotty
Not making excuses for myself or anything but I had allergies for the last month and I just didn’t feel like doing anything anything anything that got too complicated it just I was like let’s do something different .
I’m going to try to do the wankle rotary just the first one I wrote a script for that, but it disappeared so I’ll have to totally do it again no big deal lol =)
@@What.its.like. I get it. You do a good job with your reviews. Take care of yourself. Ilegitimi non carborundum!
79 ford pickups were the pinnacle of ford pickup styling imo. Better than anything before or after and the nicest looking pickups theyve ever made
I agree, 79 my Fav.
Can't wait for the Australian Cleveland episode, very interesting engines. Australia only produced a 302C and the 351C in the Cleveland family. They were produced at the Geelong plant in Victoria. I have 3 vehicles fitted with 302 Cleveland's and have own 8 vehicles over the years fitted with the 302C 2v and 1 with a 351C 2V. If you need any info on the 302 engine or 351 engine I do have some info I can send you.
I will take any information you have because it seems like I’m limited on information here depending on where I’m at I have different results. I don’t know what’s weird. I found that out when I went to Georgia that Google search is different in Georgia than it is here, same thing when I went to Michigan I had access to the information that I don’t have access to the same information here. Weird
What_its_like@yahoo.com
@@What.its.like. On Firefox, you get a 'pop-up' allowing you to block your location when using Google search. With any browser that 'request' can and should be blocked or you get the skewed results you noticed.
That’s great information
This was a particularly good engine family video, Jay. Well done. I once had a '73 Cougar XR-7 convertible with the 351C (2V). That car, even with its extra weight, would really move! I've also driven a '73 XR-7 hardtop with the 351 CJ (AKA "Q" Code), which was a real barn burner for the year. One thing that everyone neglects to mention about a lot of V-8 engines during this period; even though horsepower ratings were down, torque ratings were still usually pretty good. And I'll take the '78 Cougar XR-7 and the '82 F-150.
Thank you so much for sharing all that insight as well as personal experience. I’m glad you dig the episode =)
I have a 1978 Ford LTD ll with the Sport Appearance Package. So I'll keep that over the 78 Cougar. For the truck, a I'll choose the 1979 F-150.
My LTD ll has the Cleveland based 351M and it suits me fine...as a cruiser. Even though it's low on the horsepower, it has plenty of torque. It ain't a drag racer by any means.
Yes Cleveland production started in Australia in 1973 and the Ford Australia Geelong Casting Centre cast 302 Cleveland's and 351 Cleveland's from then untill the last Aussie Clevelands in 1985/6 in Aussie F100 to F350s and 1983/4 for Aussie Falcons , Fairlanes , Fairmonts, and LTDs.
They also made a large stockpile for De Thomaso, that lasted like another 5 years or something & special ones for racing too.
Don’t forget the 302 Cleveland, it is a 335 series as well. By the way you aren’t rounding off, the bore is 4 inches and the strokes were 3,31/2 and 4 inches. The 302C used 2V ports with closed chambers.
I have to throw that in there because every source that I use generally rounds and it actually kind of upsets me. I don’t understand why we can’t use the actual numbers…
The 302C was an Australian market engine that we never got here in the state going to cover it in a different video
A 302 Cleveland was also mass produced in Australia where Clevelands were made till the early 80’s at the Geelong Foundry.
I remember the 65,and newer Olds V-8 engine family used the same timing gear integral cast housing and the fuel pump mounted to the housing with the flat metal cover behind the. Fuel pump.
@@patrickmcgoldrick8234 the man that designed the clevland engine was first a employee at Genral Moters Oldsmobile. But Ford hired him on to design a new engine for them. Lol. That is why they have that design. Look at any other ford engine & the fuel pump will be a different than the clevland design. Lol! Good eye if you didn't know about that.
I remember reading that,and he had hand also in the 370,429,and,460 Ford engine family.
@patrickmcgoldrick8234 idk? That would be news to me. I know they do not share the same GM Olds traits. They were also released to the public two yrs before the clevland. Not sure when they hired that guy??
I am not sure to swear,but I remember that I read about the development of that engine family in Collectable Automobile Magazine.and I read that a former Oldsmobile engineer had his hand in the design of that engine.Thats all I can say,and there is good chance I might be wrong.
When I was a kid, my Dad had a '77 Gran Torino. I'll take that.
Awesome any cool stories
1976 was the last year for the torino.
@@roddycreswell8613 I was a very young child at the time, maybe 7 or 8, so its entirely possible I have the year wrong. Perhaps 1975?
@@What.its.like. Nothing very clear or specific, I was very young. Vague memories of helping him work on it. Tune-ups and the like.
Two stories: my best friend had a 70 Mach 1 w/ 351C-4v. It was a pretty fast car. He rebuilt the engine to Boss 351 specs, including the Boss ca & solid lifters. Now, *that* was a seriously fast car! (Altho, a 440 Mopar blew us away, making us feel like the brakes were on). The 351M (the M is for Modified) and 400 engines were real dogs. Mom had a 400-2v in her 72 LTD, and it was gutless. I did have a customer with a 72 LTD wagon with 400, and it was astonishingly fast. WYR= any of the trucks. None of the cars would even fit in my garage!
Awesome story thank you so much for sharing those memories. I never drove anything with a 351 Cleveland or the modified engine but I did own a 67 Mustang with a 351 Windsor and I really like that engine., I ran it HOT by accident a couple times and it didn’t do any damage to the engine. I thought maybe I would warp a head or something like that but it was pretty good to me.
I got to drive a Lincoln Mark five with a 400 in it believe it or not, it’s faster than a 450 SL Mercedes so that’s telling you something. I never got that car. It’s a complete turd in my opinion. .. Lincoln mark five with a 400 accelerates very brisk but it’s faster than a 450 Mercedes.. I worked at a Classic Car dealership over the summertime and I got to drive a 76 Eldorado convertible a 79 Lincoln Mark five and the 450 SL Mercedes all back to back what gets me is you could buy both the Lincoln and the Cadillac and a garage to put them in and probably have money left over for the cost of the Mercedes it just I don’t know rant over lol
Great choice =)
I agree, I had a 70 1/2 Black Falcon that had a solid lifter cam and the closed chamber 4V heads. It took a 428CJ to beat it. The 400 was the engine that could have been, but the 3 inch crank and weak casting made it a 350 hp max and 385 ft lbs. over that it wasn’t if it blew up but when. The 2.75,crank bearings interchangeably with the FE, the cam bearings too.
The M is for Michigan the casting plant it was first cast at. Same as the 351 Cleveland and the 351 Windsor.
heads make the motor these engines have em put a cam headers and carb on a 351 m or 400 400 hp no problem
@@61rampy65 the sheriff’s department where I grew up had some 77-78 LTD IIs with 400s. They were generally dogs. With light bar would top out around 105. There were a couple of them, however, that got Edelbrock SP2P 2V intakes and possibly Holley 2 barrel carbs, maybe even aftermarket cans. The cats were purportedly cut open, contents dumped, and welded back together. Those cars were said to be pretty fast. I never rode in one but did see the the undersheriff’s car after he got a new vehicle. It was at the county garage. We popped the hood and saw the Edelbrock intake. Back in the malaise era Edelbrock had collaborated with Holley to offer a smog level maniford/carb upgrade that was smog certified and which may have necessitated the two barrel cars. Back then, smog equipment was new and legend had it that an enthusiast tampering with it made them a”federal violators.” Where I lived we didn’t have smog testing requirements so it was very much a moot point.
Hi Jay! It's too bad the 351C wasn't able to stay around longer. Along with the Boss 429 Semi-Hemi and the Ford 427 cammer, it was one of Ford's most technically advanced engines. Finally Ford had something to compete with the 350 Chev, and they let it wither on the vine. Shame. WYR's #1 Lincoln, Baby! #2 1977 Ford Truck. My daddy drove a '77 extra cab LONG BED. That was one LONG truck! Was a baby puke tan color. It had the 300 cubic inch six in it, and was EASY to work on! Lots of memories of that truck! Never did drive it, though. Was a three-speed manual!
Awesome choices =)
Thank you so much for sharing all that insight greatly appreciate it. It sounds like your truck is pretty cool with the tree on the tree.
They always called this family of engines “ small blocks”, but when compared to the windsors they were big broad motors. It’s more like a “ mid block” to me. Smaller than a 460 but bigger than a Windsor.
I was in high school when they killed the 351C, it was still the stuff of legends for years after.
And highly sought after, especially the 4v heads.
Fords 352, 360, 390 family was considered big blocks , but weren’t much bigger than the Cleveland’s .
They were ALL very thirsty, netting around 8-10mpg no matter what the displacement.
If the Cleveland is a Mid-block then the Windsor is as well, the Windsor has a deck height that is .300" taller than a Cleveland.
@ I was talking about width, it’s always looked way wider than the windors
@@megastick9324 If you put the Cleveland heads on a Windsor block, it will be wider than a Cleveland
@ so it’s all in the heads that makes it look so much wider?
@@megastick9324 Put it this way, When Ford put the Cleveland heads on the 302 block to make a Boss 302, did that make the 302 a Big block.
WYR: 1979 Lincoln Mark V, 1982 F150.
I have to say I’m learning a lot from this series.
Awesome choices happy you dig this engine series
🥝✔️
Best, most honest delivery on the best subject matter in the world! Great work. 12 out of 10 😂😉
Awesome thank you so much happy you dig this episode =)
An engine family to consider doing is the Ford 'Pinto' 4 cyl SOHC. It was used in a lot of US/Canadian Ford models, including at first the Pinto.
Interesting information =)
Àctually it wàs called the Cologne family first being produced by Ford of Germany. It was available in 1.3, 1.6 , and 2.0 L displacement. Also hs
@@giantgeoff Absolutely right. It also formed the basis for the later 2.3L engine. IMHO one of the best engine families Ford ever did.
My mother in law had a pinto in the 70s. It had the automatic trns and couldn’t get out of its own way.
The stick shift models were peppy and fun, the autos could hardly pull a hill.
I would take the 1979:Mark V.
My first experience with the 335s was a 351M (for Mediocre) in my parents 1975 Mercury Montego wagon. I’ll give credit to it in that it had decent torque, but either the timing chain broke or oil pump froze screwing up the distributor. It got traded quick after it got out of the shop. My dad never did say what was the problem but indicated they wanted to drop in another motor. May have had something to do with a 16 year old manual shifting and such but the 335s did occasionally have those aforementioned problems.
I bought a 71 Cougar XR7 for $500 in 89. It had an H code Cleveland. I added dual exhaust and a cheap aftermarket air cleaner with double stacked elements. It was not a Boss or Q code but it ran pretty well considering it was high miles. It would scratch 2nd up until it got close to 150k miles and the FMX, which had allegedly been rebuilt at some point, started showing its age. Nevertheless it was still running and driving when I sold it. The H code with an automatic in a Cougar would get around 14 mpg on regular. I remember in a couple of occasions when the tranny forgot to shift it’s self into 2nd when my foot was glued to the floor and it revved past 6k. It was still pulling and didn’t come apart.
Awesome I like that M stands for mediocre, monstrosity, I was going to add monument, because it’s essentially a boat anchor.. I don’t understand why Ford did that why they had to existing 351s that were great and then they made a horrible one..
Thank you so much for sharing all the insight and information as well as experiences that you had with the engines. Greatly appreciated.
@@What.its.like. I had understood that the Cleveland design was intended to meet tightening emissions and fuel economy standards on the horizon. Not sure how true that actually was but obviously didn’t hit the mark. I also understood there was a 400 4V that was considered at least for cars, light trucks and police but didn’t make it to production. The 351M/400 can be built to make good power by virtue of the 2V cylinder head as its valves and ports are pretty large to begin with, but it’s probably more cost effective to build something 351W based. Ford has had a bad habit of not following thru with performance beginning in 1970 when they pulled out of racing, or when they went for years building fox body Stangs that were a good place to start but needed the aftermarket.
The term "malaise era" is bit of a misnomer. Yes, mixing exhaust with a leaner air/fuel mixture did rob some power. Things are always less efficient when government gets involved. But the main reason for the term is many compared power stats, '70 vs '71, unaware.
There was enough power if you selected the right vehicle. Quality is where the industry failed us the most. You could not go wrong with any of the 351s.
For all the struggles that experimentation the malaise era brought, look how it's paid off in power and mostly in efficiency.
My comment was compared to the 351 Windsor and 351 Cleveland 351M just didn’t live up to those other two.. Because it was like the 400 it was never meant to be a powerhouse of an engine whereas with the Cleveland and the Windsor, you could build them to make more power and I’m sure you could do things to the 351m but I’ve read the casting of the block had some issues they had some predation problems with both the 400 and the 351m but I left all that out because I didn’t want too much people to fight in comments lol
The 400 had a couple a bad production years. If I recall correctly 76 and 77. I was only 8 at the time and my parents bought a new 77 Thunderbird with the 400. My older brother had just started working for Ford, when he told our parents the car was recalled because the block would crack down the valley. You would think you would get a new engine, but no the fix was a new block. My bro had to swap all the internals over.
WYR: Round one - any other them. Round two - 1980 Ford F150, I had one with the inline six, great truck. And hey - lay off the Thunderbird, some of us are sensitive 😂. Seriously - thank you as always, great info! ~ Chuck
Hahaha I like thunderbirds just a joke great choices
@@What.its.like. - The last REAL Thunderbird was built in 1971 …
My grandson has a 1968 mustang with a 1972 351 cleveland 2V and a C6 transmission.
Very good video thank you
Happy you dig this one
My first car, a 71 Torino GT, 351C, 4V "Premium fuel' 4 gear, factory Hurst. Great sound, lots of power, BUT, 4 wheel, non-assisted drum breaks (heart stopping).
I had a 67 mustang wit no power assist drum brakes totally know what you mean I'd use the transmission as much as I could to slow down
The 335 series and the Windsor series still had the same bore spacings cuz the first kind of valve head on a small block came out on a 302
The bore spacing that is used on all ford small blocks is, 4.38 spacing first used in the ford Y block. I have a Ford heavy duty Truck Manual from 1955. In that manual Ford refers to the 272-y block as a small block, they also call the 317 Lincoln Y block as a big block. The myth that Ford never called their engines, Small or Big block is not true.
Although there was no direct replacement, the new for ‘82 3.8L 90 degree V6 shares design with the C and M motors; canted valves. The 385 series BBF was discontinued in ‘79 in passenger cars and redone that year for trucks until phased out in the 90s. External balanced, and new casting cores. The later blocks are very high quality compared to pre ‘79 castings IMO.
Great information
What’s better for a 79 F100: a quick 351c or a built up torquey 400? Or maybe a 400 built for high hp?
A 400 is a better engine for a truck, because it has more torque. At one time you couldn't get proper pistons to build a good 400. Now Tim Meyer at TMeyer incorporated makes pistons with the proper deck height that they will not detonate. the main problem the 400 engine hd was the piston was .070 down in the bore. That is why the engine was famous for detonating. The new pistons make for being able to make some big torque and horsepower. With a good cam and 4 barrel intake 500 is easy to reach in a good drivable package.
It’s amazing that we become attached to things simply because of random nostalgic memories. I developed an attachment to the 400 engine for no other reason than the fact that my parents had a 1974 LTD brougham with a 400. I was 10 at the time. It was their FIRST EVER New car. They kept it until I Became a driver. So it’s engrained in my memory. I even remember the fact that I could floor it , and it would shift out of 1st at 40mph. I remember I was able to get it to 110 mph before I chickened out. I remember it was one of few cars that could spin on takeoff. Of course my parents never knew their 16-18 year old son did that in their car 😂 . Anyway, i somehow feel a bit personally attacked when people criticize the 400. I know it makes no sense 🤷🏾♂️
I had a 70 Ranchero with a built 351 Cleveland cc heads. and it would drop to first gear if I floored it going 50 on the highway. In a quarter mile drag race it would not get out of second gear!
@@oliverpura9876 I think my parents car had a 2.73 or 2.75 ratio. I can’t quite remember.
I worked on a Lincoln that had a 430 in an it was a nightmare trying to find parts... ended up 460 swapping it ....Iv worked on the 430 an the 352.... wired stuff
The 430 was a "MEL" engine roughly based on the FE block but with many differences and too many variations along the way, some lasting only half a model year. Properly restoring the oddball ones can be tough as some parts have been unavailable for decades and were never plentiful to begin with.
Well done !
Thank you I’m happy to dig this episode. There was a lot of contradicting information. Specially, with the 351 modified I was going to try to release this episode yesterday, but I couldn’t find enough slides that talked about the engines.
How about an episode of the F head jeep. Came in both 4 & 6 cyl. I worked in an automotive machine shop ( Napa) in the 70's and 80's. Saw a lot of goofy engines. Thanks for the video.
@@cjespers we already did one on the F-head We haven’t done the Go Devil or the lightning yet, which were the L head versions
Willys hurricane engines 134, 161
th-cam.com/video/P_EWp-8-45w/w-d-xo.html
I had a 1977 F-250 4x4 Hi Boy with a 400/4speed manual, that truck wasn’t fast, but it would pull a trailer better than any truck I’ve had other than my Ram/Cummins. People like to hate the 400, but I loved mine.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience =) lots of power down low
The 400 was a good truck/ towing motor with lots of low-end torque but it gets overlooked as tat was about all it did really good with.
My dad remembers replacing crankshafts in the 400s including the 351M,Could not keep bottom ends in these piles of junk.Came with bad crankshafts from the factory
@@Toolaholic7 it seemed like ford loved to cut corners, I saw the oiling system only has 2 galleries instead of 3 they took one away
My high-boy got the same fuel mileage empty or loaded, just shy of 13mpg.
The Ford 390 HP 1961, and how easy it was to adapt the parts to a later 390 or the 410 FE 1966-67 Mercury.
The 335 engine family was introduced in 1969 for the 1970 model year. In 1969, if you got a 351 it was a Windsor.
Right, the "M" is for modified. The 400 c.i. V8 always a big-block bolt pattern on the rear and when the 351M was introduced it also had the big block bolt pattern. As a side note, the 300 c.i. inline 6 also had a big block bolt pattern(big block refers to the 385 series.
Usually the 351C-4v used a C-6 automatic. Because all 351W and 351C shared the same bolt pattern with the 302, they used a special C6 known as the small-case C6. The 302's came with the smaller C4, but we would swap them out for the small-case C6. We would have to modify the drive shaft.
My parents special ordered the new 1974 1/2 Gran Torino Elite, with the 400 c.i. V8. Yes, it had lots of torque and did decent burnouts, but because of the square engine design, it didn't rev as well as it's 351 brothers. Never had a problem pulling my Ford 302 V8 powered ski boat, but acceleration was another story. I had to plan my move if I intended to pass another vehicle.
All those '75 Ford cars were turds and the largest engine you could get was the 400M. I'd go for the Lincoln Mark V. It had atleast another year of that body style, so you just change the Mark V emblems to Mark VI and nobody would be the wiser.
It was about the same as when someone would put the Lexus ES 250 or ES 300 emblems on their Toyota Camry's. lol
There are key differences between the mark IV and V the V is a lot more pointy
There was also another 'small case' C6 with shorter gearing in 1st meant for truck and van use. It had some heavier-duty parts inside and isn't interchangeable on many of the internals but bolts up identically. IMHO it' the best light truck auto trans Ford ever made.
@@automatedelectronics6062 this piece didn’t mention that Cleveland 4V close chamber heads on a 302 block “made” the Boss 302 for 1969. While not exactly a 335, the heads made the engine perform.
@@P_RO_ Never heard of that one. Every one I'd seen when they were new, if truck or van had a 302, they had a C4. This included 3/4 ton and 1 ton. Any other engine and they got the C6. We ran a fleet of 1976-1978 passenger vans with 302's, they were special ordered as heavy duty as they could come, they all had C4's. A little later after Ford introduced the FIOD, these replaced the C4 behind the 302. The other engines got C6's with the usual internal gearing until the E4OD came out. Would have liked a lower 1st gear.
@@What.its.like. Maybe. They always have to tweak a new model year, but the average joe wouldn't notice.
75 Lincoln
82 F 150
351 Was a good engine but I feel the 350 Chevy probably was way more popular.
What I find really cool is how you could order these engines from the factory to the extent demonstrated here back in the day. Car builders selling to people that wanted to modify their engines and treating them accordingly. Name a car company that does that today.
Bill you and I both know that the car industry has lost so much in the last 50 years and they lost even more if you go back even further than that you could get a car custom tailored to your needs and have some thing that nobody else has.. not even Rolls-Royce offers that anymore. Yes, they might custom do a couple features or you could get a custom color but your car the body shell is going to be the same as somebody else… And because those cars were rarely shared with a public buying public now has no idea what they are literally missing
@@What.its.like. Never again will there be a Cole Porter singing about a Brewster Body.
Hot rod magazine built a 400 for a heavy street car. It had 465 lbs ft. Of torque , and just under 400 horsepower.
10:06 I am going to say that is a Ford with the chrome headlight bezels from a 1978. The 1979's were black.
First pick 78 Cougar XR7, used to be a lot of them around back then, and the 77-79 T birds Second the truck I used to own before rust consumed it from the roof, down 79 F 250 300 six 4 speed manual. Paid $7200.00 for that one at age 22 drove it 24 years 200,000 miles then bought its replacement in 2003. Engine suggestions GMC V6 truck engines and International 6 and 8 cylinder engines.
Awesome choices great engine suggestions. I’ve been trying to put an international episode together of the four-cylinder the slant for that they made, but I not sure if I should cover the V-8 in that episode as well, or if I should just strictly stick to the four cylinders… sometimes I’ll get halfway through a script for an engine episode and I’ll hit a brick wall where I can’t find anymore information or something crazy I’ve been working on an episode for the wankle rotary engine just going to talk about the very first one but then I got allergies and I lost the script so I have to totally do that whole thing all over again.. I might do that one next week I’m not entirely sure
I want green diamond red diamond blue diamond engines the international six cylinders that were in the early international trucks
@@What.its.like. Maybe cover the engines individually so you'll have more future content to do vid's on. Beware the Wankel- it's history and use is like a three-volume set of dictionary-sized books, a very long and complicated history.
@@What.its.like. Do the v8's seperate they were far ahead of everbody else during design phase in the 50"s . Canted valves, squish chambers , gear drive cam, reverse flow cooling(coolest water into heads first not the block) good oiling, high pressure water pump.
I had a 351C in a Torino wagon and a 400 in an LTD. Both of them were smooth running engines with great torque. Gas mileage wasn't great.
Awesome
I still drive the 77 Ford F150 w/400 and automatic. 2wd with "Explorer" package. Rides great and 100 mph engine isnt even working yet.
Would You Rather 1: 78 Mercury Cougar XR7.
Sweet choice
Mercury (though really not a fan of any of them), 1975 F-150 Spng sounded like Led Zeppelin Black Dog to start, but on further listening, no. A neighbor had this T-bird for years. The leather seats were covered and remained pristine white, while the body slowly rusted away.
Two barrel version was best for street and torque production.
Cool.
That's a new one on me! I didn't know the 351M used or could use Windsor parts. I also wasn't aware that it was actually a 352, rounded off. WYR: I'll take all the pickups, and you can keep the cars. 😊 Toodles, everyone! Until next time.
79 f150 best looking truck ever built
10:00 Any Thunderturd. Thanks..
And F150 82 351M thanks
Awesome choices =)
Second because I was watching the 6cyl “Milage Maker” Ford video
Awesome =)
Would You Rather 2: 77 Ford F-150. It can still run on regular fuel (no catastrophic converter).
Sweet choices
71 mach 1 m code 4 sp car 351 have had 40 years is wild animal 😊
Awesome =)
@@What.its.like. 😎
I could never understand why the 351W was so different than the 351C ! It made finding - ordering and replacing parts more difficult at least for me ! But i prob would take the 351C over the W !
Totally agree
I meant to add a few more fun facts,the 351 Cleveland 4 ,and 2 barrel both used the small block Ford pattern,the same as the 240,300,late 65 and newer 289,302 ,and 351W.351/400M used the 485 Bell housing pattern,which is the same pattern as the 429/460 .
One more fun fact the 351/400 M used the block and heads,the 400 is a stroked 351.The Mark V ,the F-250, another great job Jay.
Thank you so much for adding that information =)
Great choices
So much wrong there. It is not a 400M it is just 400 the 400 could be had in the 385 big block bellhousing pattern AND the Small Block bellhousing pattern. The 400 was NOT a stroked 351M . The 351M was a de stoked 400 using the 351W crank casting.
@@matthewq4b You are also wrong about fact that 351M does not use a 351 W crank. Both cranks have the same bearing Size, but the M crank is a much heavier Crank would not fit into a 351 W block, the counterweights are much to large. There was a 400 block with Both Bolt patterns, it is rare, not too many know about that block.
@@mylanmiller9656 Where did I say same crank ? I said same CASTING. I spent over 40 years as a Ford power train engineer I think I know what I'm talking about... and you did what exactly ?
The Crank is not even similar to a Windsor it is a Copy of the Cleveland Crank Casting With different main size. You must have been the guy that designed the Edsel.
still have my favorite 1978 f 250 with a 400. don't understand why the bothered to make the 351m -it weighs about the same and gets about the same gas mileage with less power and torque
I totally agree. I don’t understand why Ford couldn’t just produce more 351 Windsor engines or why they discontinued the 351 Cleveland.
I didn’t know the 400 was available in that generation Thunderbird. I thought they all had either the 429 or 460. I think they were available in the next generation foe a while.
@@dmandman9 I think your right
@@What.its.like. I guess being old has some advantages. 😅. I remember the behemoths 73, 74, and 75 Tbirds my brother had that were the Ford version of the Mark IV. But the 77 bird seemed to Partly take the place of the Grand Torino Elite, while the LTD 2 filled the gap left by the “regular Torino and grand Torino. I believe the 302, 351W , 351M and 400 were engine choices for 1977 and 1978. I think the 400 was dropped in 1979. By the way, I love your videos. No one can be 100% perfect. And you have information that appeals either to my nostalgia or my curiosity
About 2,000 early '72 T-Birds were offered with a 400. Then later the 77-79 T-Birds were offered with a 302, either 351 and 400. Have seen both 351M/400 with a FMX, Small block bolt pattern, or a big block C6 trans behind them.
@@socalltd I knew the 77-79 series T bird was offered with the 400 for a while. I’ve never seen a 400 in the 72-76 T birds. , only the 429-460. As for the FMX , I’ve seen it offered in everything from the 302 to the 400. It could have been offered with other engines. I’m just not knowledgeable enough to know. Not sure if it was ever offered in the 429-460 in any application. I know it had the reputation of being a tough transmission. My dad liked it more than the c4 or c6. It was less temperamental. But the cast iron case made it heavy.
@@dmandman9 The FMX was for medium duty uses in certain applications with small blocks and some 400's. The majority of 400's and all 429-460's came with the C6.
71 Torino GT 351c 4V 4 speed premium fuel
The real meaning of the "M" in these engines is "mistake" 🤣 I've heard from several sources that Ford needed more basic 351's than 'Windsor' could make and that upcoming pollution standards required something new, both of which don't really make sense. But whatever, the "M" series came along and just added more confusion to the 351 game. One major difference between the 351C and the other 351s was main bearing size; the Cleveland had smaller main journals which was better for high RPM's, as the 3" mains in the others saw a bearing surface speed pushing the limits of what plain bearings could do which limits their redline, and spun mains are a known issue when you rev them really fast. Relatively few Clevelands were performance versions- most were 2V grocery-getters with 2-bolt main caps and tons of 'fake' performance versions exist. Those (and even the 351M) can be built to give some impressive numbers, but the 4-bolt 351C will always be king of this class of engines. Some later Ford 'crate' motors had the "C" main journal size done with the "W" block, and those can rival most 351C builds. The "M" series did well enough for it's intended uses but fuel mileage was always poor with these engines.
On WYR I once had a 75 T-turd, bought on the cheap when I was broke. Mine had a 351W 2V, a small trunk, a smaller fuel tank, and a tiny back seat in a too-large car. It's only virtue was a smooth ride with lots of legroom up front. I wouldn't choose it or any of the others; they are all turds. On 2, I like the looks of the 79 best, but they had plastic grilles which to me puts them out of the 'classic' era. NTT "Highway Star" is one of those songs which will live forever- a great choice from you.
I love that song =)
I like your M meaning I was going to add the M stands for monument, because it was a boat anchor ( or so I’ve been told never had one) thank you so much for sharing all that insight and information
@@What.its.like. I guess it was a monument to the end of Ford making a decent small V8 engine- boat anchors for sure. It would be decades before they made anything new and good again, and as usual they threw some bad one in there too. It's hard to be a Ford fan sometimes, but I am.
@@P_RO_ Ford never made another good engine until they built the God zilla.
You know I want the Thunder"chicken" !!
Question what is your problem with saying thunder bird? your did it twice?
It was a joke that’s it..
@@What.its.like. Okay?
I think Ford ask for it, they took a great car from the 1950's and early 1960's, and turned it into a overweight Turd.
One minor point of weirdness, the 351C has the Windsor (SBF) bellhousing, while the 400 and 351M have the 385 (BBF) bellhousing.
Great information
If the 460 Ford is called a Lima engine because it is Cast in Lima, the 351 Windsor is called a Windsor because it is Cast in Windsor, and the Cleveland was cast in Cleveland and called Cleveland them how Come the M engine that was cast in Michigan is not called a Michigan. If you follow the pattern The M should be for Michigan. The M block has MCC Cast right into the Block.
Good observation.
Back in the day, we just called the M a morphidite.
@@cammontreuil7509 yes ford tried really hard to make a turd out of The 400 and 351M engine that could have been a sound engine. For starters why was the Piston .070 " down in the bore if they didn't want it to detonate. There is data from the 1950's, that states large deck Clearance will cause detonation.
I still don't understand why Ford did the 351M instead of just continuing the 351C. Obviously with CAFE standards, engines larger than the 302 couldn't be used in cars after 1981 or so, until port fuel injection was developed.
I totally agree. I don’t understand why they had two really good engines and then they decided to make an absolute turd
Ford could use one crank for both the W and M. The bell-housing bolt pattern is big block sized and could use the C6 which was a plus IMO. The 351M is simply a rod shortened 400 and cheaper to keep one engine family (beside the Windsor). Also factory hot rods were dead at that time since the C was the HiPo small block. Perfect storm of OPEC, the EPA and insurance costs.
Good video, but being nitpicky there was no 427 CJ, it was a 428 CJ. Technically a 427 was actually a 425 and the 428 was actually a 427, so there is that. Good info otherwise.
I totally meant to fix that and I totally forgot to thank you so much for pointing that out I was like there is no 427 cobra jet that’s supposed to say 428 great ear for catching that =)
The Cougar XR7 and the 77 F150.
Sweet choices
79 Mark V for me in the first scenario. 82 F150 in second scenario only because I was born in 1982. Otherwise it would be a four way tie. 😊
Great choices
77 f150 ! I still have one
Awesome
let do yr 68 mopar 383s. we got two barrels and four barrels, lo-po and hi-po's. thanks
th-cam.com/video/FDXvoY9yf5w/w-d-xo.htmlfeature=shared
I think the 400 gets an undeserved bad rap. Twenty year old me proved that they could regularly run three quarts low on oil without any issues. When it started to tick (usually every two weeks), you put three quarts in. Good as new.😏
That first truck you showed is not a 75 F150 😂. It is either a 76 or a 77 & it is a F250. But thats the one i would take over the others.
It happens
Hate to say it but have to go with the "TURD" 1st and Lincon my second choice.
@@paul-er7ho awesome choices. I have nothing against the Thunderbird. I think they great cars. I just see that all the time in the comment section and figured I’d say it a couple times it has a nice ring to it…
I love the Mark as well. I think in the Bert orange color or maroon or the two top colors but realistically didn’t really make a bad looking color of that car gray or battleship gray is a bit acquired taste but all things considered that came in some really nice colors
I would like all of them
Awesome choices =)
rincoln Mark V, 75 F150 are my rathers
Sweet choices =)
I would rather have the 74 ranchero with 351 Cleveland. Oh wait. I already have one and drive daily..
Mercury Cougar -82 F150
Great choices
WYR: All of them.
I'd put the Ford 460 engine in a 1968 Ford F100 Ranger. Why not?
Awesome =)
I have a Mark V
That's awesome I have a spot in my heart for those cars
351c good . 351 and 400 slugs bad emissions.
302 and 351 W ok .
I had a 351 Windsor in my Mustang. I absolutely love that engine. I overheated it a couple times and it didn’t do any damage to the engine.
Clevlands are small blocks. Not "like" small blocks.
@@jesseduke694 some will debate on small block issue that's why like is in front of
@What.its.like. there is no debate. It shares the a bore spacing with the 260, 289, 302, the windsor, even the 400. All small blocks. It's why heads & crankshafts interchange. You can't put a big block head on a small block.
Tho I agree it's a point of debate within the ford community check out this trend on the topic ( not getting information from trends but they make a few points)
fords aren't really classified as big block small block, doing this channel has taught me that also ford and Chrysler engines have complicated engine lineages.. most ford people will say different engine family's not big block small block
@What.its.like. u can NOT put big block heads on a small block. The bore spacing is not the same therfore cylinders don't line up. You can put small block heads on a small block. Like Cleveland heads on a windsor or a 302 or a 289. 400s have 2v Cleveland heads from the factory. They all have the same bore spacing. They are by definition small blocks. And your point about fords not really having such a thing has been disproven by ford. They did refer to them as such. Big & small blocks. Now they did have engine families & that is how they mostly referred to them. But ford themselves put out a advertisement of a "Big block 427" mustang in 68. Bore spacing is how such a label is determined. Now ford has a few different size Big blocks, all bigger bore spacing than the small blocks, but the small block bore spacing is just that! It went unchanged. Windsors & 335 series engines all use the same bore spacing hence, "small block"! 260, 289, 302, 351w, 351c, 351m, & 400 fall in this category. It's why the heads DO interchange. You can NOT put a FE head on & you can NOT put a 385 series head on any of those engines. They can NOT be modified to except those heads either. Becouse cylinders don't line up! Why??? Becouse they are SMALL BLOCKS.
The RX-7 .
TH-cam.....WHY DO YOU INSIST ON INTERRUPTING THESE VIDEOS MID-WORD BY THESE USELESS ADS!!!!!
75 Bird would need to have an emissions delete. 76 was much better.
1974 F159
Sweet choice
1978Cougar does it for me and i ll take any of the trucks , trucks are trucks
Sweet choices
1979 F150
The 77 f 150
Sweet choice
I had a 73 thunder Chicken... 🤔 Long Long Car 😂 rode good 👍
My Uncle had an 1976
F - 130 ... With a 351 Mistake
Never ran when it rained 🤷
After 1963 year model I'm done with Ford Trucks !!!!!!!
Enjoy your day
Happy Motoring ✌️🤠
Awesome =) i’m happy you still dig this channel John Boyd after the years I love reading your comments
ps have a 81 f 150 with a 400 cam headers and carb with highway gears tf t don t want you to pass me you won t
Awesome =)
Ranger pickup truck
Seriously, none of them!
That’s a choices as well
The markv
Awesome choice I love that car in that burnt orange maroon looks dapper as well
The 351M and 400 were junk,could not keep a bottom end in them.Came with bad crankshafts from the factory
No. It wasn't that the cranks were bad. Ford should have increased the size of the bearings to compensate for the heavy reciprocating mass.
@@cammontreuil7509The crankshafts were bad.My dad replaced a lot of crankshafts in these.
First
Awesome =)
P.S. I've driven all 3 & the Lincoln wins. NO Ford Trucks are worth bringing home after 1972./My opinion only.
Had a 351-2v, what a piece of crap!
Maybe it was a maintenance issue, not the engine.
One of the worse engine family ford built
Except the Cleveland 351 that was a good one the rest were eh..