Put a thermal fuse on your heat bed, between the ssr and heat bed. That way if your ssr fails the thermal fuse will break at say 125c and your house is safe. That is how it is done with the Voron printers.
same issue if your thermistor does not read the heater it is not called off to the set point and climbs until you get a mechanical failure likley a fire at least smoke
Ive been making heated chambers for printers for about 3 years now. Using a heat gun, fans, and a arduino with a thermistor. I also take it a step further and water cool all my stepper drivers. I also cnc all the plastic parts of my printers that i buy into aluminum instead.
I have been printing nylon at work, what I have found is that other than a heat chamber and a constant dry box running with a tube from the box to the printer a garolite bed sheet needs to be used for printing nylon and pc. I found mine on etsy the seller's name is IamFossCustomPrints and the product is Phenolic LE (generic Garolite) sheet. This makes all the difference when printing these materials. Hope this helps anyone having the same struggles that I had.
I forget where I saw a video with a pro company who make mechanical parts from nylon and some type of pc, what struck me the most was that the materials got “wet” within 15 minutes (!) Also, water cooling, I don’t hear you talking about it, but if you need to protect components from the higher temperatures, you can’t just blow hot air around. Thx for the vid
I just recently did the same thing. I'm not planning on heating my chamber but I made it with foil lined foam and framed the corners with metal sheetrock edging. Took the controller off my ender 5 plus and put it on the outside. Been printing with tough pc and haven't had issues as long as I use a brim.
An easy way to strengthen foam that I picked up from some vanlife folks, is to reinforce it with wire mesh like for a screened in porch. You cut the mesh about an inch wider than the foam, assemble the foam box, then using whatever standard latex interior house paint you have lying around (spray and oil paint have thinner in them which may eat your foam) glue the mesh to the sides while bending down and overlapping the overhang to reinforce the corners. The foam resists compressive force and the mesh resists shearing (and puncturing) so it's still very light and super sturdy. Bonus! The paint makes it look less slapped together.
I don't use PLA, I started with ABS, I use PETG as my throwaway prototyping, I progressed to ASA, PC, Nylon, and I'm enjoying playing with carbon fiber infused Co-polymers. As for chamber temps, I print on sanded plexiglass (no adhesives) in a heated chamber at 50c and I'm getting no warping. For heating I'm using x2 100w ceramic terrainium heaters
What is your enclosure made from? I am finishing a 30 x30 x 40" Acrylite 1/4" thick for my Ender 3. Im going to use a TPI heater and temp controller and a 12v - 80 mm fan. I'm planning on heating to bed temps.. 50 to 70c.. Will that work?
I was gonna recommend this. Spot lights have been used by many diyers in the past 10 years. I think some NASA interns have a little paper out on it too.
@@3darms Good to hear that it works. Is your printer hardware pretty standard otherwise, to be able to print ultem? I have been out of the 3d printer game for many years now, kinda wanna get back into it by offering printing services.
If that's the heat gun I think it is, it gets way hotter than 150C, I use mine for lighting charcoal. The heat isn't very even, but at points I think it's over 400C. The big thing with the SSRs is to add a thermal fuse in series. I might also add a NO relay in series with the whole printer, held on by the control board, and bootstrapped on by the power button. That way when the printer turns itself off, EVERYTHING turns off. You still want the thermal fuse because sometimes relays can weld contacts closed.
Instead of having two power cables you can get a heavier gauge cable. They are commonly used for higher power computer PSUs and are commonly available.
Did the same thing! Bought a big sheet of insulation foam from home depot and the reflective tape and made an enclosure for my tevo tornado. It works really well but yeah a bit sketchy looking!
Not sure if this can help, but on my 3D printer i only reach a envir of around 55C. But when i print i have no issues with warping when i print PC, also i have no issues that build plate is coming lose. Maybe its your build plate/bed that has issues with temp. I just print on the default black side of buildplate. Only thing special i do is using magigoo pc. Brand of PC is also different i use Polymaker PC. I even never dried my my PC(but is always in polybox connected with Pfte to printer, with 10% on humidity meter, moment that goes up i refresh silica). Think in your case biggest issue is your build plate not current environmental temp of 65C.
I use a 1500 watt heating element that was for a smoker and a noctua industrial fan blowing across it. Also use a bathroom exhaust fan that’s ducted out my window to cool everything off. Works great. Only issue is I need to run on two circuits to avoid tripping the 20A circuit breaker 😅
Very interesting to follow your progress with this build. If you can figure out a way to make/modify a 3D printer that can have ~70-100c enclosure (and function well without constant tinkering) for less than $1k, you will have a extremely popular TH-cam channel. Suspect you may have to look into water-cooled extruders/stepper-motors, which very few people have videos on. Printing with PLA just isn't good enough for us hobbyists anymore.
I looked this up. Apparently H-class stepper motors are rated to around 180c, so those should be fine. The real problem seems to be rubber belts and other plastic inside the printer. Those could all be replaced with silicone. Laser bed leveling might be better for bed leveling without adding on the z-clicker thing. Add on silicone sealant and a check valve, and it should be good. A silicon tube through the side to the fan for cooling would be a nice improvement. Also, you may want a separate silicone/clay 3d printer for temperature resistant parts. Polyiso deforms at high temps though, so it'd need to be mineral wool to get up to 180c, and you'd want a metal bottom panel so the 3d printer wouldn't sink into a bottom foam, if it existed, like a crunchy pillow.
To hold the build plate in the temperature range you're looking for you'll want to use a mechanical solution or much larger magnets. For a small disc like that you can expect a significant drop off in attractive force above 80 degrees C. I would bet, in fact, that the reason the original magnetic platform isn't working as intended is due to heat degradation.
The regular magnetic sticker that you can buy anywhere works well, it's just that the rubber on them softens and sticks to your steel plate, so you need to cover that rubber with aluminum tape (which gets firmly bonded to the semi-molten rubber). I don't know how it's going to perform in the long run but so far so good.
I added a 1000 watt AC heater to my Ender 5 Plus. My bed is 1/4" (6.35 mm) cast aluminum tooling plate. I solved the SSR issue by using an electromechanical relay between the outlet and SSR. I currently use one of my PWM fan outlets, but am working on using a GPIO pin. It activates whenever the target temperature is set to anything greater than 0 and deactivates when the target temp is set to 0. It works great. I had an issue with some firmware settings that would cause the bed to halt for not reaching temp or getting too hot and it shut the bed down like it was supposed to. One video that I would love to see is an experiment where you just power one of these silicone mats without any sort of temp and see how hot they actually get. They're rated for a certain number of watts so my guess is that they won[t runaway that much anyway. They don't have infinite heating capacity.
I build a heated chamber using STC 1000 controller and 1000w PTC heater. My printer-Artillery Sidewinder is huge and not chamber friendly. I separated the electronics sticking aluminum reflective foil on top of the case. I want to recommend polycarbonate sheet as a bed material. It's awesome, 3 or 4 mm sheet that is lightly sanded and things just stick to it like crazy. Peace!
I like running spools on their own rack a few feet to the side of a printer. Feed it through a hole, use Teflon tube if you like as a bushing. Put a 2 or 3" section of curved Bowden tube on the extruder drive input with the curve generally aimed at the side the filament enters on. Then you can get rid of that goofy sloped forehead and lower the volume (increase the temperature) of your chamber. I would note, my stock CR-200B Creality enclosed printer gets to about 60C with only the filament entry slot covered 80%. I would love to try printing at 70c or more. The 200B isn't friendly to changing hot ends so it's a fail for Polycarb actually. And then of course, your polycarb wouldn't be in the hot chamber continually drying.
Using a smart plug flashed with tasmota, like the sonoff S1 will allow you to send a mqtt command to the plug for an E-Stop. That plug will also let you pull energy consumption so you don't have to fool with that meter and hacking the mains cables.
I recently saw a 10m roll of GT2 timing belt with steel band reinforcement on amazon for $15. The steel will certainly expand when it's heated but even if it's a significant expansion the tension can be set at temperature and the steels tensile strength will be plenty high at those temps. of course there could be something I'm not thinking of too...
A heat pad on a granite/concrete slab as a base would help maintain an ambient temperature. If you put silicone blocks under it it's also help minimise noise and vibration.
It look like Two Trees unfortunately now mounts the stepper motors up top with the gantry motion system, not below the base. So if anyone wanted to isolate the motors like you point out with this printer, we would need to find an alternative. Do you know of any other core xy printers with that design of keeping the motors below the base? Thanks!
I have a magnetic (non-spring steel) bed which was working fine for printing PLA when my heated bed failed. Trying printing without heat it's also lifting the bed even with clips - and that's with PLA. I ended up gluing the surface to the magnetic bed to get a little more output from my elderly Ender-2 before it's replaced. Generally, though, I like the spring steel places I have on other printers but I prefer keeping them in place with clips instead of magnets... you're just much less likely to come back to find your bed on the floor surrounded by spaghetti
I have a little bit of code added to marlin, in the event of the thermal runaway error it also sends a high signal to an io pin which i hooked up to a relay which comes before both PSUs and SSRs . so when i get thermal runaway the printer just unlatches from main and does a "suicide". very good for safety, very harsh on Rpi .
What about convection in your enclosed space? Do you think it's worth doing something about that? It seems that you would benefit from parting the space just above the bed/XY gantry. As it is, I'm guessing most of the hot air remains in the spool compartment.
Air separating in layers usually requires larger spaces, and very still air. I would expect the printhead whipping around would keep the air mixed enough not to have a large gradient form.
@@AlienRelics If I remember correctly from uni (architecture, not mechanics, though), spaces more than 20-30mm wide already make circulation possible. Hence, modern double glazing is usually just short of that distance apart - to maximise the thickness of the gas inside (specifically chosen for low conductivity), but minimise convection. There are, however, no print heads in windows. ;)
Maybe add a circulation fan that blows across the print surface and draws from under the heated bed something like the VzBoT - RSCS, but make it out of metal. Probably could get away with one circulation duct instead of two. Add a heating element inside the duct and a control TC on the outlet. When the fan is running it will heat your chamber to setpoint. It will also equalize the temperature of your printed part, which shouldn't cause warping if your chamber and circulation gas temps are right. You would basically be making a convection oven. Maybe you could just buy a small convection oven and build a printer into it. Could be cool to look through the oven door and see your print progress.
Why would you use flammable styrofoam when you can use fire resistant polyisocyanurate (PIR)? It's super cheap insulating foam you can find at any hardware store. It's ignition temperature is actually around the melting temperature of aluminium. Also, you can host the filament outside of the enclosure and run it through a small hole. Heat flow through the hole is pretty small.
Thank you for the comment! You are correct and Styrofoam is the inferior choice for the reasons you mentioned as well as the off gassing when it get's hot. I covered the reason why I used Styrofoam instead of Polyiso in the enclosure build video: th-cam.com/video/SmOzs3JZ6cE/w-d-xo.html
if the ambient temps are not circulated you will loose adhesion or get hot spots causing warps and poor z layers if the build chamber temps are not even from air mixing
I’m getting a prusa xl. I’m wanting to use it as a production printer for making massive prints using carbon petg. What would be the optimal enclosure temp for that? And can I just keep it at 50 degrees so I dont have to worry about my printer melting
Your questions seem kind of premature. I will exaggerate to prove my point: I'm getting a cybertruck to drive on the moon. What do you think is the optimal speed to get the most range in lunar gravity?
@@DesignPrototypeTest yeah I guess it is, have you done any printing with carbon petg? I guess my question is what is the lowest chamber temperature I can print to optimise print quality. Just getting into printing
PETG is the 2nd easiest filament to print with. PLA is the first. The Carbon additive makes it even easier. I've printed 450mm long stick shaped parts without issue in the open air using Carbon PETG. Make sure you get good quality filament and keep it dry, or get a filament dryer.
I like the idea of using an external heat gun, but I wonder if there's a better device, that would not have an ugly pistol grip you have to deal with mounting somehow. Another possible issue is that if it is cycled on and off to regulate the temperature, when it first powers on, it will be blowing room temperature air into the chamber for a few seconds until the coils heat up sufficiently. That might make you consider controlling the blower separately from the coils (e.g. heat the coils for two seconds, then turn on the blower).
I dont know why people havent been doing this from the beginning, maybe its due to the material type available. Our Stratasys is heated but then again the material available, ultem etc, isnt commonly found in the diy builds. At either rate heated enclosures with large projects is the way to go but it requires special design requirements due to thermal expansion.
Plenty of people roll their own heated build chambers for printers. There was (is?) a patent on heated build chambers that has prevented widespread commercial adoption in hobby printers.
You need a basic Creality zipper enclosure. Unless your print area is below about 40 degrees then the printer will keep things warm enough. Sometimes too warm. Print your plastic parts for the interior out of ABS and your temp concerns will be eliminated. Hatchbox ABS is really great. I run it at 245/90
I've never seen stainless steel cables used on 3D printers. That seems be a great high temp alternative to gates belts. SS cables like those available at bicycle shops should work and cost less than a change to ball screws.
@@yvesinformel221 yes but this machine can as its made for nylon, not only abs. It's comparing apples to oranges a bit, of course the way voron is done looks and works nicer. But this is a higher temperature mod.
@@malloot9224 I never tried printing Nylon, but I print ABS at 240C. PA6 print btw 230°C - 270°C and bed is only 95-100C. PA12 might be a problem because it need the bed to go all the way up to 125C
I've printed 3d parts from PLA+ and they are outside, in full sun and all weather. They show no signs of looking any different to the day I installed them. They are white so reflect the sun and I did paint over them so perhaps that helps protect them.
@@DesignPrototypeTest I don't have a car. The glass temp of PLA standard is about 60 degrees. I use PLA Plus which I think is slightly higher. I probably wouldn't leave in a car on a hot day in full sun like most things. I've seen it turn chocolate into liquid. But living in the UK this is rare.
Did you try letting the part slowly cool down inside the chamber after printing? I’m not super familiar with PC, but as you probably know with steel, this method is used to reduce stress in the final part. You could also try hitting the part with a blast of cool, compressed air directly after printing. This will probably create a lot of stress, but as this allows the part to cool down somewhat equally from all sides, I’d imagine that the stresses would cancel out and therefore reduce warping, at least until it’s heated again up to its annealing temperature.
People who anneal glass in a chamber allow the whole unit to cool down uniformly. Spraying cool air will definitely create cool-spots and likely cause weak or brittle points where the air hit first. Case in point: if you happen to spray annealing borosilicate glass with cool air, it will 100% shatter. I would leave it in the 3d printer shroud to uniformly cool down over time.
Steppers are pretty robust in terms of their ability to handle high heat, but ideally that stepper would not be in the enclosure or it would be actively cooled.
It can depend on the motor. I've seen many motors have a 100C maximum rating, although LDO motors makes some that are functional up to 180C (search up their Orbiter Extruder and the included NEMA14)
maybe try only circulating the heat dont exchange the air or your heater will not make its set point use a larger hole to bleed the excess pressure coming in
I'm thinking outside the box here, literally. What if you were to completely remove the box, and instead, aim either 2, 3, or even 4 evenly spaced spot lamps, or heat lamps around the printer, and aim them at the work area?
I like pla but even after anealing its not that good. Bought petg+ (from fiberology) and could print 85° overhangs no problem, 100% cooling and no warping. Just aneal it and its dumb strong (2cm squared contact area between the layers and I cant break it
Love this analysis. Personally I wouldn’t be comfortable using the type of element used to heat the air in a hot air gun. Probably being paranoid but I wouldn’t do it. To solve the same problem I’m going to try a heat mat, like used on heated beds on a big aluminium heat sink with a fan blowing over it. Perhaps two of them if I can’t get enough heat. It would be harder to pid tune and less effective in bang bang than your solution though as the heating will be much slower, but I think it would work with a bit of tuning.
Use “poor mans fiberglass “ on outside of heat chamber to give it some rigidity , you can even insert thin wood pieces in places that need more structure or screws.
@@difflocktwo probably because it’s easier and cheaper ;hence the description . I know English is my second language but I think it was self explanatory.
don't get into the troll campaign, get a youtube comment management program or code a bot to filter out the trolls. that is the only way to keep sanity. and the fact that younger runner ups using existing material will always profit from innovators is a fact of life.
Instead of redesigning the spool holder, just thread the nut on and call it good, the nut will keep the spool from coming off and bada bing bada boom slide it easy on easy off
I hope you are only running that setup when your home, that foam is a serious fire hazard, if something catches on fire, using hardie cement backerboard then insulate with foam board on the outside is much safer
Why not cover everything on the inside of the printer with aluminium tape and have a polycarbonate glass enclosure and then heat the print from the outside of the printer using infrared heaters? The aluminium tape reflects 95% of the heat and the polycarbonate sheets let through 95% of the heat. The goal is to heat the part that's being printed while keping the chamber temp at reasonable levels that will not fry the printer it self.
Isn't SSR which fails closed independent of DC power supply? It will be feeding power to bed as long as it gets AC power, your controller does not even need to be turned on. You need inline thermal fuse which blows up when bed temperature reaches certain point, daughter board which turns off 24V PSU won't help you in this case. You can reach out to Keenovo or DIY 3DP communities using AC powered beds in their specifications for tips on safe installation (i.e. VORON, RatRig, HevORT,...) Example: www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/byenlo/ssr_relay_failure/
Open air printers are for toys and children. I love ABS and I've never had anything but enclosed printers. PETG is good also, great with UV but very slow to print. The first time you pointed out the potential of this printer and it's mechanics, I should have bought one. However, it was made in violation of a patent on steppers outside the build chamber. Thus is why I suppose they are no longer available.
When you raise the temp inside the chamber, the part cooling blowing the heated air will be less effective. Maybe look into air pumps mounted outside the chamber
Best video yet! Great content, good details, and insightful. I agree, heated chambers rule. As for air and fumes, why not recirculate the warm air through a carbon filter and use a passive heater resistor/radiator, that way you don't use a spill a huge amount of energy and pollution into the environment, potentially trap the particulates and remove the fumes?
@@samroesch I've got my CR10s Pro V2 tented in a mylar lined cordura zip up thingy and I get to 40C with just residual heat. It only cost me $80....and it has a window.
No, I think the voron guys actually did it first before me. They use the magnets to make the electrical connection. It's a bit different from my solution.
![[TH] VCT Pacific - Playoffs - Upper Bracket Semifinals // GEN vs T1 | DRX vs PRX](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/9cXUFuLLI8E/mqdefault.jpg)
Put a thermal fuse on your heat bed, between the ssr and heat bed. That way if your ssr fails the thermal fuse will break at say 125c and your house is safe. That is how it is done with the Voron printers.
i am a bit surprised there was not one i use two inline in different spots great catch
also this is how they all should be not just a voron nice catch thesanzca
same issue if your thermistor does not read the heater it is not called off to the set point and climbs until you get a mechanical failure likley a fire at least smoke
people USE A THERMAL BREAK !
Some of us have extra temperature sensors and controllers with relays that power things on and off depending on the temperatures being reported
There are High temperature Gates 2GT belts that can withstand 135°C
HTGT..2,3,5 ect..
Ive been making heated chambers for printers for about 3 years now. Using a heat gun, fans, and a arduino with a thermistor. I also take it a step further and water cool all my stepper drivers. I also cnc all the plastic parts of my printers that i buy into aluminum instead.
Ive also noticed a hair dryer with a pvc elbow works great for the temps you want. Like a snug fit
I have been printing nylon at work, what I have found is that other than a heat chamber and a constant dry box running with a tube from the box to the printer a garolite bed sheet needs to be used for printing nylon and pc. I found mine on etsy the seller's name is
IamFossCustomPrints and the product is Phenolic LE (generic Garolite) sheet. This makes all the difference when printing these materials. Hope this helps anyone having the same struggles that I had.
I forget where I saw a video with a pro company who make mechanical parts from nylon and some type of pc, what struck me the most was that the materials got “wet” within 15 minutes (!) Also, water cooling, I don’t hear you talking about it, but if you need to protect components from the higher temperatures, you can’t just blow hot air around. Thx for the vid
I just recently did the same thing. I'm not planning on heating my chamber but I made it with foil lined foam and framed the corners with metal sheetrock edging. Took the controller off my ender 5 plus and put it on the outside. Been printing with tough pc and haven't had issues as long as I use a brim.
Great video. I have a Creativity ELF that I am modifying with a heated chamber so this video has a lot of useful info for me. Much appreciated 👍😄
An easy way to strengthen foam that I picked up from some vanlife folks, is to reinforce it with wire mesh like for a screened in porch. You cut the mesh about an inch wider than the foam, assemble the foam box, then using whatever standard latex interior house paint you have lying around (spray and oil paint have thinner in them which may eat your foam) glue the mesh to the sides while bending down and overlapping the overhang to reinforce the corners. The foam resists compressive force and the mesh resists shearing (and puncturing) so it's still very light and super sturdy. Bonus! The paint makes it look less slapped together.
I don't use PLA, I started with ABS, I use PETG as my throwaway prototyping, I progressed to ASA, PC, Nylon, and I'm enjoying playing with carbon fiber infused Co-polymers. As for chamber temps, I print on sanded plexiglass (no adhesives) in a heated chamber at 50c and I'm getting no warping. For heating I'm using x2 100w ceramic terrainium heaters
I use sanded polycarbonate sheet 3 or 4 mm thick. Works like a charm with no additional stuff.
What is your enclosure made from? I am finishing a 30 x30 x 40" Acrylite 1/4" thick for my Ender 3. Im going to use a TPI heater and temp controller and a 12v - 80 mm fan. I'm planning on heating to bed temps.. 50 to 70c.. Will that work?
I use halogen bulbs to heat my chamber to 120° for printing Ultem.
I was gonna recommend this. Spot lights have been used by many diyers in the past 10 years. I think some NASA interns have a little paper out on it too.
@@difflocktwo i got the idea from the NASA paper. Works fantastic.
@@3darms Good to hear that it works. Is your printer hardware pretty standard otherwise, to be able to print ultem? I have been out of the 3d printer game for many years now, kinda wanna get back into it by offering printing services.
@@difflocktwo i built it from of the shelf components, but I had to piece it all together based on temperature resistance. It cost about a grand.
@@3darms Good to know. This makes 3d printing much more useful for more technical applications.
You should host some sort of diy enclosure contest and put people ideas on display in hopes of sharing and progressing ideas
If that's the heat gun I think it is, it gets way hotter than 150C, I use mine for lighting charcoal. The heat isn't very even, but at points I think it's over 400C. The big thing with the SSRs is to add a thermal fuse in series. I might also add a NO relay in series with the whole printer, held on by the control board, and bootstrapped on by the power button. That way when the printer turns itself off, EVERYTHING turns off. You still want the thermal fuse because sometimes relays can weld contacts closed.
Instead of having two power cables you can get a heavier gauge cable. They are commonly used for higher power computer PSUs and are commonly available.
Did the same thing! Bought a big sheet of insulation foam from home depot and the reflective tape and made an enclosure for my tevo tornado. It works really well but yeah a bit sketchy looking!
Thinkering a descent enclosure is the next big thing in 3D printing. You got it!
Not sure if this can help, but on my 3D printer i only reach a envir of around 55C. But when i print i have no issues with warping when i print PC, also i have no issues that build plate is coming lose. Maybe its your build plate/bed that has issues with temp. I just print on the default black side of buildplate. Only thing special i do is using magigoo pc. Brand of PC is also different i use Polymaker PC. I even never dried my my PC(but is always in polybox connected with Pfte to printer, with 10% on humidity meter, moment that goes up i refresh silica).
Think in your case biggest issue is your build plate not current environmental temp of 65C.
If the second SSR isn't getting used then wire them in series and they would both need to fail on to be a safety issue in a thermal runaway event :)
I use a 1500 watt heating element that was for a smoker and a noctua industrial fan blowing across it. Also use a bathroom exhaust fan that’s ducted out my window to cool everything off. Works great. Only issue is I need to run on two circuits to avoid tripping the 20A circuit breaker 😅
Very interesting to follow your progress with this build. If you can figure out a way to make/modify a 3D printer that can have ~70-100c enclosure (and function well without constant tinkering) for less than $1k, you will have a extremely popular TH-cam channel. Suspect you may have to look into water-cooled extruders/stepper-motors, which very few people have videos on. Printing with PLA just isn't good enough for us hobbyists anymore.
I looked this up. Apparently H-class stepper motors are rated to around 180c, so those should be fine. The real problem seems to be rubber belts and other plastic inside the printer. Those could all be replaced with silicone. Laser bed leveling might be better for bed leveling without adding on the z-clicker thing.
Add on silicone sealant and a check valve, and it should be good. A silicon tube through the side to the fan for cooling would be a nice improvement. Also, you may want a separate silicone/clay 3d printer for temperature resistant parts.
Polyiso deforms at high temps though, so it'd need to be mineral wool to get up to 180c, and you'd want a metal bottom panel so the 3d printer wouldn't sink into a bottom foam, if it existed, like a crunchy pillow.
To hold the build plate in the temperature range you're looking for you'll want to use a mechanical solution or much larger magnets. For a small disc like that you can expect a significant drop off in attractive force above 80 degrees C. I would bet, in fact, that the reason the original magnetic platform isn't working as intended is due to heat degradation.
The regular magnetic sticker that you can buy anywhere works well, it's just that the rubber on them softens and sticks to your steel plate, so you need to cover that rubber with aluminum tape (which gets firmly bonded to the semi-molten rubber). I don't know how it's going to perform in the long run but so far so good.
I added a 1000 watt AC heater to my Ender 5 Plus. My bed is 1/4" (6.35 mm) cast aluminum tooling plate. I solved the SSR issue by using an electromechanical relay between the outlet and SSR. I currently use one of my PWM fan outlets, but am working on using a GPIO pin. It activates whenever the target temperature is set to anything greater than 0 and deactivates when the target temp is set to 0. It works great. I had an issue with some firmware settings that would cause the bed to halt for not reaching temp or getting too hot and it shut the bed down like it was supposed to.
One video that I would love to see is an experiment where you just power one of these silicone mats without any sort of temp and see how hot they actually get. They're rated for a certain number of watts so my guess is that they won[t runaway that much anyway. They don't have infinite heating capacity.
I found aiming a kerosene torpedo heater at my ender 3 really helps prevent ABS warping.
I build a heated chamber using STC 1000 controller and 1000w PTC heater. My printer-Artillery Sidewinder is huge and not chamber friendly. I separated the electronics sticking aluminum reflective foil on top of the case. I want to recommend polycarbonate sheet as a bed material. It's awesome, 3 or 4 mm sheet that is lightly sanded and things just stick to it like crazy. Peace!
I like running spools on their own rack a few feet to the side of a printer. Feed it through a hole, use Teflon tube if you like as a bushing. Put a 2 or 3" section of curved Bowden tube on the extruder drive input with the curve generally aimed at the side the filament enters on. Then you can get rid of that goofy sloped forehead and lower the volume (increase the temperature) of your chamber. I would note, my stock CR-200B Creality enclosed printer gets to about 60C with only the filament entry slot covered 80%. I would love to try printing at 70c or more. The 200B isn't friendly to changing hot ends so it's a fail for Polycarb actually. And then of course, your polycarb wouldn't be in the hot chamber continually drying.
Great Video! what kind of Styrofoam are you using?
Very nice, keep it easy and simple :)
Using a smart plug flashed with tasmota, like the sonoff S1 will allow you to send a mqtt command to the plug for an E-Stop. That plug will also let you pull energy consumption so you don't have to fool with that meter and hacking the mains cables.
also if your using more than 50% of the amps on the ssr it should have a heat sink or if it swiches alot on and off same
I recently saw a 10m roll of GT2 timing belt with steel band reinforcement on amazon for $15. The steel will certainly expand when it's heated but even if it's a significant expansion the tension can be set at temperature and the steels tensile strength will be plenty high at those temps. of course there could be something I'm not thinking of too...
great video bro.
Is it really any better than a card board box also would you just poke the filament through the side
What about the extruder motor? When it gets hot in the chamber so you get skipping? Have you looked into water cooled hotend and motor?
A heat pad on a granite/concrete slab as a base would help maintain an ambient temperature. If you put silicone blocks under it it's also help minimise noise and vibration.
Another helpful, informative, critique. Thanks for all you do man! I've been eagerly awaiting another video. 👍
It look like Two Trees unfortunately now mounts the stepper motors up top with the gantry motion system, not below the base. So if anyone wanted to isolate the motors like you point out with this printer, we would need to find an alternative. Do you know of any other core xy printers with that design of keeping the motors below the base? Thanks!
I have a magnetic (non-spring steel) bed which was working fine for printing PLA when my heated bed failed. Trying printing without heat it's also lifting the bed even with clips - and that's with PLA. I ended up gluing the surface to the magnetic bed to get a little more output from my elderly Ender-2 before it's replaced. Generally, though, I like the spring steel places I have on other printers but I prefer keeping them in place with clips instead of magnets... you're just much less likely to come back to find your bed on the floor surrounded by spaghetti
I put a blanket over my ender 3 and the hotend fan started to sound like gravel.
It is really necessary having the filament in the box?
Can you do a review on the creality CR-5 Pro high temperature version? i will buy it
do you need part cooling for PC?
I have a little bit of code added to marlin, in the event of the thermal runaway error it also sends a high signal to an io pin which i hooked up to a relay which comes before both PSUs and SSRs .
so when i get thermal runaway the printer just unlatches from main and does a "suicide".
very good for safety, very harsh on Rpi .
What about convection in your enclosed space? Do you think it's worth doing something about that? It seems that you would benefit from parting the space just above the bed/XY gantry. As it is, I'm guessing most of the hot air remains in the spool compartment.
Air separating in layers usually requires larger spaces, and very still air. I would expect the printhead whipping around would keep the air mixed enough not to have a large gradient form.
@@AlienRelics If I remember correctly from uni (architecture, not mechanics, though), spaces more than 20-30mm wide already make circulation possible. Hence, modern double glazing is usually just short of that distance apart - to maximise the thickness of the gas inside (specifically chosen for low conductivity), but minimise convection.
There are, however, no print heads in windows. ;)
What is the strongest material I can print with for a head that tops out at 270c?
Maybe add a circulation fan that blows across the print surface and draws from under the heated bed something like the VzBoT - RSCS, but make it out of metal. Probably could get away with one circulation duct instead of two. Add a heating element inside the duct and a control TC on the outlet. When the fan is running it will heat your chamber to setpoint. It will also equalize the temperature of your printed part, which shouldn't cause warping if your chamber and circulation gas temps are right. You would basically be making a convection oven. Maybe you could just buy a small convection oven and build a printer into it. Could be cool to look through the oven door and see your print progress.
Why would you use flammable styrofoam when you can use fire resistant polyisocyanurate (PIR)? It's super cheap insulating foam you can find at any hardware store. It's ignition temperature is actually around the melting temperature of aluminium.
Also, you can host the filament outside of the enclosure and run it through a small hole. Heat flow through the hole is pretty small.
Thank you for the comment! You are correct and Styrofoam is the inferior choice for the reasons you mentioned as well as the off gassing when it get's hot. I covered the reason why I used Styrofoam instead of Polyiso in the enclosure build video: th-cam.com/video/SmOzs3JZ6cE/w-d-xo.html
Best excuse I have ever heard to explain why I buy 30 pac of no-name fudge icles
Try a piece of aneled glass 3/16", sand blasted for adhesion. It will take the heat without shattering, and yet stay flat as can be.
if the ambient temps are not circulated you will loose adhesion or get hot spots causing warps and poor z layers if the build chamber temps are not even from air mixing
Have you seen the Trianglelab high-temp belts?
how is your h2 routed? I havent found a mount even similar
Maybe keep the spool outside the enclosure, and use a bowden tube to route the filament into the box?
I’m getting a prusa xl. I’m wanting to use it as a production printer for making massive prints using carbon petg. What would be the optimal enclosure temp for that? And can I just keep it at 50 degrees so I dont have to worry about my printer melting
Your questions seem kind of premature. I will exaggerate to prove my point: I'm getting a cybertruck to drive on the moon. What do you think is the optimal speed to get the most range in lunar gravity?
@@DesignPrototypeTest yeah I guess it is, have you done any printing with carbon petg? I guess my question is what is the lowest chamber temperature I can print to optimise print quality.
Just getting into printing
PETG is the 2nd easiest filament to print with. PLA is the first. The Carbon additive makes it even easier. I've printed 450mm long stick shaped parts without issue in the open air using Carbon PETG. Make sure you get good quality filament and keep it dry, or get a filament dryer.
@@DesignPrototypeTest yeah I haven’t had to many problems but just wanting to increase reliability and print quality
I like the idea of using an external heat gun, but I wonder if there's a better device, that would not have an ugly pistol grip you have to deal with mounting somehow. Another possible issue is that if it is cycled on and off to regulate the temperature, when it first powers on, it will be blowing room temperature air into the chamber for a few seconds until the coils heat up sufficiently. That might make you consider controlling the blower separately from the coils (e.g. heat the coils for two seconds, then turn on the blower).
I dont know why people havent been doing this from the beginning, maybe its due to the material type available.
Our Stratasys is heated but then again the material available, ultem etc, isnt commonly found in the diy builds. At either rate heated enclosures with large projects is the way to go but it requires special design requirements due to thermal expansion.
Plenty of people roll their own heated build chambers for printers. There was (is?) a patent on heated build chambers that has prevented widespread commercial adoption in hobby printers.
You get a different result when you probe in open air maybe because the frame also expand.
You need a basic Creality zipper enclosure. Unless your print area is below about 40 degrees then the printer will keep things warm enough. Sometimes too warm. Print your plastic parts for the interior out of ABS and your temp concerns will be eliminated. Hatchbox ABS is really great. I run it at 245/90
I've never seen stainless steel cables used on 3D printers. That seems be a great high temp alternative to gates belts. SS cables like those available at bicycle shops should work and cost less than a change to ball screws.
Literally was thinking about this solution a few weeks ago I'm always just late enough to not make great inventions XD
I much prefer the way Voron is done, much cleaner, I can see it printing, of course the box is not as heat tight, but it works.
It would completely fail at 70C though
@@malloot9224 Chamber never goes above 55C anyway
@@yvesinformel221 yes but this machine can as its made for nylon, not only abs. It's comparing apples to oranges a bit, of course the way voron is done looks and works nicer. But this is a higher temperature mod.
@@malloot9224 I never tried printing Nylon, but I print ABS at 240C. PA6 print btw 230°C - 270°C and bed is only 95-100C. PA12 might be a problem because it need the bed to go all the way up to 125C
I tried to print a table side cupholder and it warped over time with PLA. This video is entirely accurate.
I've printed 3d parts from PLA+ and they are outside, in full sun and all weather. They show no signs of looking any different to the day I installed them. They are white so reflect the sun and I did paint over them so perhaps that helps protect them.
Now put them in your car on a hot day, and feel them turn into rubber.
@@DesignPrototypeTest I don't have a car. The glass temp of PLA standard is about 60 degrees. I use PLA Plus which I think is slightly higher. I probably wouldn't leave in a car on a hot day in full sun like most things. I've seen it turn chocolate into liquid. But living in the UK this is rare.
most reels abs made warp at 85c , 90c and they are no longer round
Note that annealed PLA resist heat more than PETG or ABS. :)
Did you try letting the part slowly cool down inside the chamber after printing? I’m not super familiar with PC, but as you probably know with steel, this method is used to reduce stress in the final part. You could also try hitting the part with a blast of cool, compressed air directly after printing. This will probably create a lot of stress, but as this allows the part to cool down somewhat equally from all sides, I’d imagine that the stresses would cancel out and therefore reduce warping, at least until it’s heated again up to its annealing temperature.
Printing on a surface that retains heat, like thick piece of steel and print on a surface that will not peel off the magnetic surface.
People who anneal glass in a chamber allow the whole unit to cool down uniformly.
Spraying cool air will definitely create cool-spots and likely cause weak or brittle points where the air hit first.
Case in point: if you happen to spray annealing borosilicate glass with cool air, it will 100% shatter.
I would leave it in the 3d printer shroud to uniformly cool down over time.
you're the best man. You're a natural engineer 100%. One day you will design something that will save humanity.
Thank you for the kind words!
If you continue to increase the chamber temperature to 100 degrees lets say, what happens to the stepper on the extruder?
Steppers are pretty robust in terms of their ability to handle high heat, but ideally that stepper would not be in the enclosure or it would be actively cooled.
It can depend on the motor. I've seen many motors have a 100C maximum rating, although LDO motors makes some that are functional up to 180C (search up their Orbiter Extruder and the included NEMA14)
@@DesignPrototypeTest good quality videos you are making maybe you could do a review on the creality CR-5 Pro high temperature It is with a enclosed
maybe try only circulating the heat dont exchange the air or your heater will not make its set point
use a larger hole to bleed the excess pressure coming in
Please note that a heat gun will pump outside fresh air in, so the same amount of polycarb infused air will come out.
Yes. I said this in the video. You vent this air to the outside (outdoors) best eliminating the pollution in your room.
not negative reviews. Critical reviews. People always think that criticism is bad when its not.
I'm thinking outside the box here, literally. What if you were to completely remove the box, and instead, aim either 2, 3, or even 4 evenly spaced spot lamps, or heat lamps around the printer, and aim them at the work area?
18AWG is good for > 11 amps, not 4. You possibly read the resistance per 100ft.
I like pla but even after anealing its not that good. Bought petg+ (from fiberology) and could print 85° overhangs no problem, 100% cooling and no warping. Just aneal it and its dumb strong (2cm squared contact area between the layers and I cant break it
Love this analysis.
Personally I wouldn’t be comfortable using the type of element used to heat the air in a hot air gun. Probably being paranoid but I wouldn’t do it.
To solve the same problem I’m going to try a heat mat, like used on heated beds on a big aluminium heat sink with a fan blowing over it. Perhaps two of them if I can’t get enough heat. It would be harder to pid tune and less effective in bang bang than your solution though as the heating will be much slower, but I think it would work with a bit of tuning.
Use a laser? to spot heat the area about to be extruded onto, to soften for bonding.
4:27 "I'm going to break this" :D
Use “poor mans fiberglass “ on outside of heat chamber to give it some rigidity , you can even insert thin wood pieces in places that need more structure or screws.
Why not just use fiberglass?
@@difflocktwo probably because it’s easier and cheaper ;hence the description . I know English is my second language but I think it was self explanatory.
They use steel wire instead of belts on SLS printers because of heat.
don't get into the troll campaign, get a youtube comment management program or code a bot to filter out the trolls. that is the only way to keep sanity. and the fact that younger runner ups using existing material will always profit from innovators is a fact of life.
Make an inner chamber that encloses the heated bed very closely for even better thermal performance
you will loose your magnetic bed with more heat it will fail use cf plate and silicone heat mat or boro glass
Instead of redesigning the spool holder, just thread the nut on and call it good, the nut will keep the spool from coming off and bada bing bada boom slide it easy on easy off
Or you throw a cheap thermal fuse onto the bed... Like the Voron printers all do. No setup required
That looks like another dangerous enclosure
Regular neodymium magnets loose magnetism above 80C
I hope you are only running that setup when your home, that foam is a serious fire hazard, if something catches on fire, using hardie cement backerboard then insulate with foam board on the outside is much safer
Why not cover everything on the inside of the printer with aluminium tape and have a polycarbonate glass enclosure and then heat the print from the outside of the printer using infrared heaters? The aluminium tape reflects 95% of the heat and the polycarbonate sheets let through 95% of the heat. The goal is to heat the part that's being printed while keping the chamber temp at reasonable levels that will not fry the printer it self.
you need a 20a 120v cable lead to be safe
Why aren't you using a dry box? Will reduce size of your enclosure
The reputation 3D printing makes crappy things come from the fact most people print crappy things with their printers.
Isn't SSR which fails closed independent of DC power supply? It will be feeding power to bed as long as it gets AC power, your controller does not even need to be turned on. You need inline thermal fuse which blows up when bed temperature reaches certain point, daughter board which turns off 24V PSU won't help you in this case. You can reach out to Keenovo or DIY 3DP communities using AC powered beds in their specifications for tips on safe installation (i.e. VORON, RatRig, HevORT,...)
Example: www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/byenlo/ssr_relay_failure/
Open air printers are for toys and children. I love ABS and I've never had anything but enclosed printers. PETG is good also, great with UV but very slow to print. The first time you pointed out the potential of this printer and it's mechanics, I should have bought one. However, it was made in violation of a patent on steppers outside the build chamber. Thus is why I suppose they are no longer available.
What about using an infrared setup aimed at the bed? The bed would radiate the heat into the camber without air moving around?
that's really tall
This would be great in a Delta printer...
pc is wet 4-6 hrs at 90c minimum
I thought Stratasys owned the patent for heated chambers. Or has it expired now?
When you raise the temp inside the chamber, the part cooling blowing the heated air will be less effective. Maybe look into air pumps mounted outside the chamber
Though surely you want to cool it down quickly, but still only cool it down to 100 degrees?
Have you tried putting a fan under the heated bed to increase how much heat it adds to the chamber?
Best video yet! Great content, good details, and insightful. I agree, heated chambers rule. As for air and fumes, why not recirculate the warm air through a carbon filter and use a passive heater resistor/radiator, that way you don't use a spill a huge amount of energy and pollution into the environment, potentially trap the particulates and remove the fumes?
Yeh that’s what I do. A desktop PTC heater, and a desktop air filter inside an ikea cabinet.
I only go to 50c though.
@@samroesch I've got my CR10s Pro V2 tented in a mylar lined cordura zip up thingy and I get to 40C with just residual heat. It only cost me $80....and it has a window.
Now where from voron get there klicky idea from.
No, I think the voron guys actually did it first before me. They use the magnets to make the electrical connection. It's a bit different from my solution.
@@DesignPrototypeTest but you done very nice job 👍
Thank you. Very kind. Have a wonderful day!
pc is not as bad as abs no where near