@@justanawkwardnerd I think it was just a fashion thing, but one of the things people would make fun of vsco girls for was "OMG save the turtles" or something like that. Like why are we making fun of girls who want to save an endangered specie? Oh that's right, misogyny.
i used to be OBSESSED with those “funny moments” videos, because they created an idealized image of the popstar in my head. For a lot of girls, they seem to become someone you can almost be friends with. but as i grew older, i eventually realized how “overly perfect” and micromanaged these lines and personalities became. it’s really sad to think that someone was being forced into a “perfect persona” like that.
Skinship isn't a kpop thing. That's just a part of Korean culture. When I first moved to America I didn't get why guys were so afraid of touching each other. I don't mean that in a sexual way but it's just... they never gave casual shoulder pats or hugs to each other and it took me a while to get accustomed to. It was only when I got older that I realized toxic masculinity was a thing.
I think a big part of it is exactly as you said “I don’t mean it in a sexual way” here in the US we literally do not have a way to communicate the concept of platonic or friendly physical contact. You either touch some one sexually or you don’t touch them at all and since most guys aren’t trying to have sex with their male friends they don’t really touch.
thank you for this! its the only part that irked me in this video. a lot of people who are used to western culture forget that when they consume cultures from other countries they should have an open mind about whats normal and whats not.
Exactly here in Asia skin ship between homies / best friend are extremely common it's in Asian culture But seriously the way male idiots being labeled "gay"because of normal skin ship just boils the blood out of me like wtf?
I definitely think it's important to show these forms of platonic affection on-screen so that people dont get up in arms about it in real life, but unfortunately a lot of viewers miss the point and use that as an excuse to ship bandmates instead. said fetishization doesn't do much to ease casual homophobia, which a lot of toxic masculinity stems from.
My ex-boyfriend disdained boy bands and loved the Beatles. When I reminded him that the Beatles started as a boy band (with my mom as a fan long before he was born), he openly sulked.
the thing is that later they started writing their own songs and pushed boundaries of music, cause they were one of the first bands ever, modern boybands will forever be just boybands
@@sweetbunnybun ummm, a lot of modern boy bands write, produce, compose,... and actually work on their own music. Or at least the ones that I know about.
The parasocial relationship is pretty frightening. EXO's Chen married his long-time girlfriend and they were having a child together. He literally has to issue an apology for getting married as a grown-up adult. The Kpop fan culture needs some examination.
mte but I'm at least glad when he revealed he's getting married, it's on his own terms, unlike getting exposed by dispatch. it took him getting most of the brunt to start normalizing celebs revealing their marriage on their own to their fans
The parasocial relationship is not the issue. It's how it was nurtured that is. You train fans to act how you want and expect of each other but the labels become carlesss in the nurturing that they don't take heed so long as they hit the big numbers profiting
This is pretty easy to answer (easy, not simple): psychologically it's a safe love. One defined only by your imagination. It's what's so appealing to many people. A real relationship is hard, and scary, and you learn very quickly (I hope) that you don't have any control over the other person (or people, not judging), and worst of all, it can end. The danger of it is when someone tries to transcend their internal fantasy by trying to make it real. We need to be cognizant of our parasocial relationships.
This is so true lmfao after a very bad relationship I'm starting to feel comfortable with the idea of a boyfriend only in these "safe spaces" liking a celeb creates. I know it won't happen so I don't have expectations and I have fun with it exploring the idea of love and what I want in a relationship without exposing me again to another person that can hurt me like it happened. It's kind of healing only if we keep things rational and logical
Is it truly safe? Maybe if you see it for what it is and leave it behind at some point or at least change your approach to it as you get older. I think some people end up causing themselves long term damage just by living in a fantasy.
That’s not the case for everyone who likes a boy band. Actually it’s a little annoying how we can’t like something without it being analyzed as some sort of bizzarie, or psychological phenomenon.
I remember reading something similar in regards to the Takarazuka Revue and how the male characters are acted out by women, although I don't remember if this was from Jennifer S. Prough's Straight from The Heart: Gender, Intimacy, and the Cultural Production of Shōjo Manga or from Deborah Shamoon's Passionate Friendships: The Aesthetics of Girls' Culture in Japan.
Lmao as a kpop stan I laughed so hard cause it reminded me of when some of us kpop stans well go " omg he has hot hands" and it's like a random picture of an idols hands 😭
You mentioned the fetishization of Korean men but another thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the infantilization of the members. Especially now that I'm older, people try to defend group members for racist acts by making them seem like a child when really they're grown men. Or they get mad when a 25-year-old man has alcohol. It's so strange
Yes! Back in 2009, I'd think it's so "cute" when they're having little spats and stuff and someone pointed out that grown men fighting isn't something that should be viewed as is. There's a lot of things that you can misunderstand when you're younger and heavily invested into the media, and it's important for fans to learn that their idols are human too and are probably the complete opposite of their personas.
they will get so shocked when they see certain idols drink, swear, smoke or talk about smex and they’ll be like: 😱 *LE GASP* I thought he was innocent~~ when he’s in his late 20’s
It’s kind of their cultures fault for the infantilization of these entertainers. I see the TV my Korean MIL watches and there is this purity and cuteness that they push on these young adult artists. Also, many of their song themes are a little more innocent compared to the western bands, hence pushing further that puritanical and cuteness image.
As a former Directioner in middle school/early high school, the fandom gave me connection and ability to be my full teen girl coming-of-age self with other teen girlies who has the same passion! It was a full time hobby running 1D fan pages on multiple social media platforms. Honestly, a wonderful time in my life to come home to 1D fandom when I was an insecure kiddo at school
Boy bands traditionally have a teenage girl fandom, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with young women being excited about something they're passionate about... but I have to say the BTS fandom goes way beyond the teenage demographic. ARMY made a census of the fandom this year, with more than 500,000 participants and it turns out almost 70% of the BTS fandom that participated is made out of people over 18 years old. I'm a BTS ARMY and I'm about to turn 36, and I'm part of a community of armys that are around my age, so I know for a fact that ARMYs are from all ages and backgrounds.
that's such a beautiful thing about being an army while people may label us as crazy fans but to tell you the truth this level of devotion is not something I have seen anywhere with any band. while there are negatives to everything I can positively assure that the positives outweigh and I think big part of it comes from the genuine support of the members themselves like they are respectful and supportive of us as well. and I wasn't a fan as a teenager so idk how it would be different for me but as an adult BTS has only had positive impact on me cuz their message and their personalities have inspired me to be a better version of me for the sake of me. it feels more of a connection as humans to them like it's okay to not know them or them knowing you and still having this respect established as strangers like that's the best part. also from their most recent songs and how they have been recently I feel like they are slowly morphing themselves more to be directed to adults since they themselves are proceeding to their 30's as well so their message would be more relatable to people who are closer to their age demographic and I'm quite excited to see what they have next coming for their solo ventures and individual colors.
@@evianblue you're so right, and this connection between BTS and ARMY is very hard to explain. We don't know them personally and they don't know us, but there's a respect and love that, like you said, I haven't seen before between other artists and their fandoms. I'm a devoted fan cause they give me so much, that I feel the need to give them back. Their music and message has been of great support to me through the hardest times and an endless source of happiness and inspiration. I'm too super excited for what's to come for BTS and ARMY. With BTS and ARMY in my life I truly feel like I never walk alone.
This is not a singular BTS thing lol. Most women are still fans of their groups even once they are older. And all bands have fans older than they are. BTS isn’t special, it just seems that way because their fan base is big because they began to market right at the height of the Korean media boom. I’m not saying they aren’t extremely talented, but their fan base has the same range as other fanbases previous to them. And if I’m a little annoyed, it’s because of the gross comment about Mina “not knowing because she’s a SM fan 💀” as if that’s somehow an insult. Can people stop their pathetic Stan wars for one second and take in the fact that this was meant to be an informative video on boy bands in general?
@@PunkHime89 I'm sorry but I think BTS are special. I'm not young, I was a Backstreet boys and Hanson fan back in the 90s, and they are OK, I mean I still like those groups mainly because of the nostalgic factor. Then I became a fan of rock when I was 14 until today... Bands like pink floyd, muse, Foo fighters, queen, led zeppelin, black sabbath, nirvana.... Until BTS came to my life, and I swear I still can't believe I'm such a devoted fan of a boy band. I'm telling you a little bit about my musical interests cause I'm not someone anyone would think loves a boy band, but I do cause BTS are special. I have seen my fair share of bands and musicians, but it's rare to see a pop group that writes lyrics with such depth, poetry and compassion. They truly care about the message they want to give to the world and mostly, to their fans. I can't even begin to explain how important they have become to me and how talented they are in so many ways, but their lyrics and connection to their fans is something rare. BTW, I don't get involved in fan wars, it's not my thing. Even though I think it's weird Mina didn't mention BTS by name and just said "kpop" when BTS is the biggest band in the world right now, it's not enough for me to get involved in fan wars. As you can see, non of my comments attacked her, I'm just speaking about BTS in a very respectful manner. And it's OK if you don't like BTS, you don't have to.
If I could just make a minor correction...? The term "skinship" isn't a kpop exclusive term, it quite literally is just a normal word in usage in Korean (actually it's a loanword of a loanword from English (meaning skin to skin contact from mother to child) to Japanese (any kind of physical affection) to Korean (which retained the Japanese meaning)). it refers to any kind of platonic, non-s*xual physical affection/touching between two people, including family, friends, and lovers - so as an example, a hug would be considered a type of skinship - and isn't limited to two people of the same gender. I think it's a bit of a misnomer to say it's a kpop term, unlike something like stan or what not. There's been a lot of interesting articles written about the concept of "skinship" as a cultural thing because it doesn't really have a direct translation despite the term being in English.
Thank you for the definition. I have heard and read this word through social media, YT videos, and Vimeo videos. And sometimes the person talking speaks so *fast* that I don't know the terminology or the background sounds (really annoying) keep on blocking out the word. I love learning different verbs, adverbs and terms from other countries! ❤
I think a lot of people learn new words, concepts, views etc through kpop & assume it's limited to that, rather than part of a larger culture. I like some kpop & find the differences in culture & societal norms, compared to here in the UK, incredibly interesting. I often go down rabbit holes & try to learn the wider context & what is common in which countries. Of course some nuance is lost & hard to understand unless you hear it directly from people who have experienced it but social media (& google translate) makes assessing those people so much easier. I find different cointries/cultures incredibly interesting, I went to a multicultural school so maybe it set me up for being more aware of differences & norms? I do think some over- romanticism & almost fetishisation of kpop idols could be improved if people were willing to realise many aspects aren't limited to kpop & different countries try/cultures often have positives which they can like & even emulate.
Building on that point made about men acting the same way at their sporting events, it reminded me of how my dad recalled having to be tear-gassed at a SOCCER GAME, because the crowd was too rowdy. I think it’s important to note that girls have the same pent up energy that we see men expressing, yet we are ridiculed for showing it, while men get to play it off as just “having fun”.
@@elenymm you knew exactly what they meant and just acting stupid on purpose. “RIDICULED” did you just glance over that part? When do you see sports fans get ridiculed as much as fangirls do?
Hanson was asked in an interview a few years ago why they are considered a boy band like BSB instead of just a band like U2, even though they've always played instruments and they never danced. Hanson answered: Sexism. Any time there's a fan base of predominantly girls/women, it is instantly dismissed as not being legitimate. Even the Beatles weren't taken seriously until they created an album that the screaming girls' boyfriends liked (Sgt Pepper's). I'm not a major Beatles fan so idk for sure if his example is true, but I always liked his answer.
The scary thing about the boyband formula is that it works no matter what. No matter if you know they are being abused behind scenes and no matter if you know deep down that the ships and their relationship is not a 100% real. I made fun of my big sister for liking The Backstreet Boys and I felt like I was an intelectual for realizing the formula and thinking that she was being overdramatic over getting tickets for them but then in 2011 I fell for One Direction and I couldn't concentrate on anything else except them, they literally made me learn english just so I could understand their interviews, I was a whole new person and if anyone made fun of them I would go insane as well I was convinced Larry was real, and with all this my little sister made fun of me and said that she couldn't believe I fell for their propaganda which is now awfully funny since she fell for BTS like two years ago and can't stop talking about them. I can't even make fun of her because I was there. It's like a curse.
nahh yall larry shippers are a different breed lol and good for ur sis for finding bts. shes in good hands they r genuine and talented guys who at this point r family for life, like there isnt anyone who loves the members more than the members themselves
The non threatening presence is why I fell in love with Tom Hiddleston. I was 22, going through my first break up, I worked at a movie theater and there was Loki on all the posters (Thor the Dark World came out less than a month before the break up, which in hindsight I knew was coming). And I was in a bad mental state. My love for him isn't gone 9 years later, but it is muted. It's no longer a huge thing. I'm happily married and projecting my love that had just been rebuffed onto a man who could play the villain and act like the nicest guy in the world made me feel safe. He would never disappoint me. Loki wouldn't think I was too fat. Tom Hiddleston wouldn't dump me over the phone. It was safe.
Hello! I'm currently a 21 year old black man. I've been a big fan of BTS since early 2017, and as I've grown up into early adulthood, I'm seeing a lot of what you're saying about teenage girls and women in general from an outside lens. I was introduced to them from a female friend of mine at the time and since then, I meet many other girls and women who stan BTS but very few boys and/or men. And it's very disheartening to see that the narratives surrounding girls and boy bands/groups hasn't changed much at all. So I stand in solidarity of the fans who aren't crazy stalkers. Fanfics, shipping, etc. can be fun and a stress relief if not taken too seriously or projected onto the members in real life. Overall, I appreciate the video; I love to analyze the phenomenon of boy bands and why I stayed in the fandom (besides the music being so FUCKING good). I especially appreciated the historical aspect, which I never knew about. Yet another instance of black creatives being ripped off of and not receiving credit or profit.
when it comes to kpop, i feel like the community is so strong because there are SO MANY ASPECTS of it !! apart from singing (covers) and the music in general, there is for example dancing (many people enjoy learning kpop choreographies and form dance groups or attend random dance plays), collecting merch (photocard trading/selling communtity is very nice - apart from the scammers :// ), drawing (fanart from realistic portraits to cute illustrations), writing (mostly fanfic tho ☠), even video essays!! (analysing outfits or complex lores) something for everyone, you know ;)
BTS is the only boy band I have ever been a genuine fan of and I'm closer to my 30s than my teens, I just really relate to their lyrics, they tell the truth no matter how ugly the truth is. Their music can be angry, aggressive, scathing and sarcastic, other times it is desperate and vulnerable and most often it is deeply empathetic and comforting. While they validate how hard it can be to live in this world, they always include a thread of hope that life can and will get better.
I feel exactly the same - just you expressed it so well! Most of us who truly love the whole BTS canon of music see it as much, much deeper than “boy band,” and I actually feel a sting when they are always referred to that way. I think it might be because a lot of non-fans know them through the context of songs like “Dynamite” or “Butter,” which, while lots of fun and happiness, do nothing to showcase their depth as lyricists, composers, or social commentators. It felt like they were expressing things we all were really experiencing, socially. And they brought out the darkness of that while still reminding us to love ourselves and to keep trying, that the world is worth helping. It’s hard to explain that to people who just see pink hair and stop at that point.
@@bhaktichaudhary1797 I love how the people who see the pink hair then stop at that point tend to accuse fans of being superficial, such delicious irony. I tell people I became a fan after watching them perform Go Go, wasn't really interested because I thought it was a party song but turned on the subtitles kinda going "what the hell, I'll see what they are singing about." And literally the first lyric I read was "there is already a mortgage on my future." Immediately after reading that lyric, I was overwhelmed with an impending sense of doom as I contemplated the reality of my economic future, but accompanying the doom was relief that someone had said it. I've been a fan ever since 😂
I mean ... it's misogynistic and taps into archaic notions of female hysteria and presupposes that any woman who isn't prim and proper and quiet is deviating dangerously from the appropriate normality of what women should be. But we all already know that; what else is there to say?
@@RenaissanceRockerBoy Dude absolutely not. Calling something a phase is NOT inherently negative. In this case it's not negative whatsoever. Normal people all have phases. Phases are not just for rabid/emotional/hysterical people. I had a knitting phase. Some people knit for their entire lives. But it's completely normal that your interests would change because we as people also change, and it's a given that teenagers go through a lot of changing and hence most of the phases would happen in that period. For boybands it's even more likely that it would be a phase. First of all, hormones will do sh*t whether or not you want them to. Second, having a lasting relationship with a friend or partner is hard enough, you'd have to love them as you both go through all sorts of metamorphoses, what more a parasocial one lol. I mean when justin bieber went to jail I tore his poster off my wall, i was like 11 😭 it's like that. Young people are messy and beautiful, let it be
Coming from someone who’s never been into boy bands but was part of fangirl culture (in the form of Wattpad and fanfiction): it makes me super upset to see all the double standards forced onto teenage girls even til this day. Girls can like Starbucks without being called “basic” yet every boy in existence plays video games and that’s “complex and individualized etc…” It’s like society can’t leave girls alone, which is just another extension of misogyny since boys pass by virtually invisible. And this is no different for fandoms; while there are valid criticisms to be made about fangirl culture, it’s often used as a way to tear girls down with no alternative outlet for their feelings. I was teaching a kid’s summer camp a couple weeks ago, and what struck me the most was the boys loud and stark protest to anything they deemed “girly”. And these boys were no older than eight!! It’s virtually conditioned into them to view feminine activities and entertainment as inferior as _literal toddlers_ whilst the male-centric stuff, such as robot fighting, are considered “the standard” that all people can enjoy (we were watching robots btw, and the girls had not a word to say about it. They didn’t complain half as much as the boys when it came to traditionally masculine activities). And this mentality seeps into adulthood and reveals just how deep the vitriol towards feminine coded behaviors and traits runs. I’m so happy I’m about my twenties, because I was getting exhausted of having to defend myself against society’s unfair labels put on teen girls; but it’s also extremely sad at the same time. Men can engage in violent, derogatory, and insanely harmful content that actively destroys many women’s lives and it’ll be passed off as harmless fun, while girls can barely have a crush without being treated with disgust. Just look at the way corn and soft core corn is perceived versus smut, to give an extreme example. Smut is most commonly consumed by women, and (while it definitely can perpetuate toxic ideals and expectations) is largely mocked whereas corn (and things like Girls Gone Wild, which is notoriously exploitative and debilitating to the girls featured in it) has active, negative consequences involving real people that society readily encourages young boys to consume, or at least diminishes the harmfulness of. It’s just frustrating that we’re constantly held to an insanely higher moral standard, while simultaneously being expected to carry the emotional labor of teaching and correcting young boys on the bad habits that were never course corrected for them in the first place.
I say this as someone who generally does not enjoy playing video games. I can assure you no one thinks of guys playing video games as "complex and individualized." Video games are seen by a lot of people as a waste of time. Think of the stereotype of the fat nerdy gamer who never leaves his room. There are equal amounts of criticism for both sides, you just mostly see criticism against women because you are a woman. Most men will mostly see criticism directed towards men because they are men. People just need to step out of their circle to realize that. There are different corners of the world/internet that criticize different things. Most people only ever see the backlash against their own demographic because it is directed at them. Yes, a lot of this kind of backlash is unnecessary, biased, and hurtful but it exists on all sides
There should be some type of repercussions that protect BoyBand members rights, health, & safety from obsessive fans and predatory management. &these videos need to spread more to show obsessive fans how they are part of harming the Boy band members. That is NOT love. Give them privacy! Stop bullying their friends! Accept their choices!
I was a Tokio hotel fan long ago and I never involve myself much with the fandom because even as a teen I tough some fan girls were kind of too much,they fought about the members "love" as if they were their girlfirends and treat the band as their property,like if they have any contact with a girl they freak out and were toxic , I still stand by this just because you like and suport a band and buy their merch does not mean they own you something or they are your property and have to stop having a life outside the stage that applies to pop boy bands, k pop, etc
@@VelvetKatOfficial The fact that as soon as someone disagrees with them or doesnt know them nor they are interested,they get so bullied... not to mention how women always get harassed... just as mina mentioned sehun situation ... those same people also flipped when he was asked if he was gay, as if its a bad thing...?he himself said that he likes that he has male fans
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this topic, as it's truly important. I also think that bringing attention to the exploitation boybands face in global music industries, and how deeply woven that exploitation is in the very identity of a boyband, is something that can always be helpful. I think boybands are extremely varied and nuanced musical acts, many of which have great songs, great public moments, and great contributions to pop culture--many of which have the opposite. However, there is a common thread of exploitation that they face, and stigmatization that their fans (usually young women, as you point out) face, which does not get covered with the empathy and research that it deserves, in my opinion. I do have some reservations, however, with the video. Even though the video is framed as a defense of boybands, and to some extent, of the young women in their fandoms, I truly don't think the video gives that much time towards actually defending boybands and fangirls. From the initial historicization pointing out the manipulation boybands utilized to gain fangirls and appropriate Black music (all valid critiques and important to note), to the many examples of 'manufacturing' that creates these boybands in the second section, to the many examples of pathological and abusive fangirl behavior in the third section, the vast majority of this video, in my view, is actually offering a pretty standard view of boybands as 'fake' and fangirls as 'crazy.' In particular, I think this is troublesome given that the video seems to aim for the opposite, and labels itself as the opposite, and acknowledges the harm of this view, but still ultimately perpetuates it. It's not that the boybands aren't exploited and manufactured, and that the fangirls don't often partake in negative behaviors--it's that these are the ideas that dominate discussion of boybands, that people already know and weaponize to attack young women for their fandom behaviors and to attack young men for their public facing images. In other words, it felt more like a 'dark side of boybands' video than a 'defense of boybands' video. I know you also received critique for including BTS in the thumbnail, but avoiding discussing them in the video (there are, instead, numerous anecdotes about your admitted former favorite group, EXO), and while I think that was probably not the best approach, I also don't think it is all that horrible a thing to do. I understand why you may have chosen to avoid talking about a group you don't feel connected to; however, it does make sense that some were put off by your inclusion of them in the thumbnail, and utilization of them throughout the video in b-roll. I'm sure many people, including many young fangirls, came to this video with the expectation or hope that it would present an alternative, liberating view of their fandom engagements--not necessarily a depiction of perfection, but a depiction of a different side of their behaviors, a depiction of the good parts of fandom and boybands that many people don't talk about due to industry exploitation, misogyny and homophobia. With that, I find it kinda disappointing that your video doesn't dive into those ideas for particularly long. Even the section wherein you touch on fanfiction being a creative outlet feels like a backhanded positive note. Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if actual positive perspectives on boybands spanned less than half of the video. I do hope that, if you decide to talk about this subject in the future, you could maybe revisit those perspectives and shed some more light on those positive aspects, perhaps talking about your personal experiences as a former boyband fangirl, the ups and downs, and the positives that you saw in the experience that perhaps others simply wouldn't understand due to prevalent ideas about fandom and young women. All in all, though I didn't particularly love this video, I appreciate the effort to bring forth these important conversations--ones which I have studied for a few years and are quite close to my heart.
Thank your for putting my thoughts into words! I couldn't figure out how to explain my feelings at the end of the video, but this summarizes them well.
One tiny correction… George and Ringo were switched on the clip with their personality labels. Love this topic- I grew up in the 90s and loved *NSYNC and was so sad when I was older and learned about how difficult their lives were at the time and afterward because of trauma from the experience. My dad grew up in the 60s a huge Beatles fan so I guess it runs in the family!
I find the critique on boy band fans so interesting. I have been a bts fan for years now, and survey after survey on fandom demographics have shown that the largest percentage of fans are in their 20s and 30s! I do see that as time goes on there has been an interesting shift in demographics. I’ve seen a number of older women and men being part of these fandoms too
I think that trend needs to be explored more. Do the psychological mechanisms at play with younger target audience still apply? Are there any different reasons and ways in which older fans engage with the fandom or are they indistinguishable from the teens? Their economic impact is felt because someone's gotta pay for all that merch and 9 different versions of one album.
@@elenymm bts only did 4 versions of albums years ago when everyone was doing bundles in the west & east. i know bts are the face of kpop but youre talking about the other groups who sell bundles and 10+ albums to get a facetime call from their idols lol
yeah BTS are getting sponsored by phone and cars brands, you can't say that they only target little girls with products like that because who the fuck buy a car for their 12 years old, obviously it targets older demographics
I wasn’t into boy bands as a child, I was a small lesbian who desperately wanted to be not like other girls. It wasn’t until I was about 17-ish that I actually decided to have fun and enjoy music, but I used to tell people that my celebrity crush was Zayn lmaooo. So thanks Zayn for being my beard
I used to be a fangirl but I’m also not interested in men. I feel like kpop stars were safe crushes and people to say I has a crush on while I was closeted. I mean they were literally unreachable: they were in korea and famous.
When it comes to looks and kpop, I find fans to be hypocritical. They will criticize the companies for having visual as a position and forcing plastic surgery and diets BUT THEN they will also drool over the abs and tight clothes of idols all the time. Not to mention that in practically every group the most popular member is "the prettiest one". The only reason why companies act the way they do is because fans act the way they do. And these HUMAN BEINGS are stuck in the middle of everyone's expectations.
They will not only drool over abs and tight clothes, they will *also* lash out at every idol they deem not pretty enough, too skinny or too fat. I swear there is no middle ground among kpop stans. If we follow their logic, everyone is anorexic or obese. I support many Kpop artists, but I lost count over the number of times I came across inappropriate comments from kpop stans. Note : I'm talking about kpop stans as a group/community, not as individuals.
@@ashrise my least favourite part of it is that they will say Korean fans do that and Korean culture puts insane pressure. Ok, sure. That in no way implies that international fans are better, but they always act holier-than-thou.
I get your perspective, but I find that the people who seriously and genuinely criticise the standards and pressure in the industry are usually not the ones who blindly "drool" over someone's looks. (If you see the kpop fans as a homogeneous group it might come across that way but that's not really realistic.) Additionally, I think it's entirely possible to criticise that people are held to insane standards and still acknowledge that someone is indeed pretty in your opinion. For example, people who are mainstream-attractive are also more successful on TH-cam. Yet I'm not gonna stop watching Mina just cause she fits into that high standard and is above-average pretty.
@@Mad.E I have actually seen someone bash a company for their standards in one tweet and then tweeting a fancam of an idols butt in the next one a couple of minutes ago. And it definitely is just one of the examples. Recently an idol from my favourite group talked about being on a diet and fans were all "oh no, eat what you want". That guy is always objectified for his looks. And when I commented that you can't have it both ways, people justified their behavior by saying that the entire industry is like that so what can they do. (Think about that for a second. The hypocrisy blew my mind.) Of course not all fans are the same, but I honestly can't put that disclaimer in every comment. I also think there is a difference between acknowledging that someone is handsome and publicly commenting on how you'd like to pin him against the wall and lick his abs (that's just a mild example, hopefully you get what I'm trying to say.)
Tiny correction: Obsessive fans in Korea are called "Sasaengs" (사생) not Sesang (세상) . Sesang means world in Korean and is a common term. Edit: corrected Romanisation of 세상
Thank you I knew both these words are different but when she said saesang I got so confused and tried to come up with an explanation for why they'd call obsessive fans world and thought maybe it's because by being obsessive thier own world only revolves around the celebrity so they can be called world
Jackson Five was huge, but New Edition, Temptations is never mentioned when people talk about boy bands. Frankie Lymon and the teenagers were really good too. Most modern boybands got all their influences from them. Shout out to them. So happy you covered this! I Love BTS too.
The refusal of society to just let teenage girls enjoy things without labeling it cringey, basic or embarrassing will be the death of me Edit To be clear I am not accusing Mina of doing this. I agree whole heartedly with everything she said. I simply just needed to get something if my chest
Can we just admit that it can be cringy and embarrassing though? Maybe it's just that I am older and don't care because I like what I like, but I think self awareness goes a long way and shows maturity better than anything else.
@@elenymm I think we can let it go because it ain't harmful - the social criticism of it pushes young women more into it as 'No one understands me'. If people were more open minded, young women will pass through it normally like a phase.
The music literally does suck though. Boy band music is some of the most soulless , generic music made out there. Even 1D members hate the music that they made as a band because it's manufactured and frankly it sucks. And yes fandoms are absolutely cringey and embarrassing especially the 1D fandom.
@@joebidenjr5902 I don’t think being generic is a bad thing, just because A Hard Day’s Night sounds like every other pop song from that era doesn’t mean it’s not fun. Every music genre has very good and very bad music lol
Boysbands are always affiliated to what young girls like and as something negative. Like having a majority of women followers ain’t the flex of the century. Besides the stereotypes i feel like these groups have more freedom nowadays.
@@LondonBlue i really hate that mindset people have. i hate how it personally affects me too by letting it get to me and i feel ashamed sometimes because of my interests :/
i think something i really appreciate about bts is that i never feel like a crazy fan girl even tho many interviewers will try and push that label onto us, and in front of them too. you’ll see the boys change the direction and point out that we are so supportive of them and they appreciate us so much. like yes you can’t speak for all armys like you can’t say anyone one group of people is perfect but there are some amazing positives i’ve seen some do, such as donations and bringing awareness to many topics. but that’s never the stuff that gets pointed out most of the time
exactly! they treat us with respect because they know not all their fans are crazy and that our support is what keeps them at the top. it’s nice that they refrain from belittling fans (at least publicly) like everyone else does
@@kittenluver4lyfe I've seen people belittle armies tho. I think it's only within the kpop community where army gets respected like you say, but anyone outside kpop will look down on any kpop fandom. And ngl, even I find it creepy sometimes. I understand being a fan of a certain artist, but I've seen some army's, which, to you they may seem like they're doing good, but they get so defensive about BTS that it creeped me out. I know BTS has done many charities and they've probably helped many of their fans when they felt low and whatnot with some of their music, since it's what I've heard has happened. But I cannot fathom how it's possible to love people you've never met to the point some army's do. Not just army, other kpop fans as well. I've seen some bizarre posts on Quora where some army will trash other kpop groups just because they see no other hand other than bts being good. To them BTS means their entire life, and that outright creeps me out. I know this is bad behavior, the toxic side of fandoms, but it has happened way too many times to just ignore it. I have nothing against BTS, but I have everything against those people who obsess to a degree where the only thing left about their personality is BTS. Humans are complex, there's so much more you can like
@@sin3358 if you say that armys are respected within the kpop community, I'll assume you have never interacted with said kpop community. they literally made an "independece day" to get armys out of the kpop fandoms lol
this video brought up a lot of interesting context, but it honestly.... didn't feel like a good defense of boybands? its sympathetic to the artists, but only focuses on the negative aspcts of boyband history, doesn't delve neither into the healthy aspects of fandoms like it said it would, or the actual music and its impact. from acting like its always just a phase to flying over the actual music trends started by boybands, their impact on the music industry , cases of groups that have a different perspective, it felt like every other discussion of it, if less condenscending. the impact of motown groups, the beatles reshaping of the entire music industry, bts' recent unique place on an international music space, and the trend of lasting boybands being "recognized" by male critics later in their careers (when largely young female fans have made them established) are a few things that could've been delved into. theres some misinfo about kpop here too that other ppl have mentioned, (skinship, sasaengs), more complexity to the 'hysteria' stereotypes that could've gone deeper
@@sonamy1231000 the underexamined but actually extremely impressive capacity for organization, the strong sense of community a lot young fans develop, the various friendships created in a fandom space, the ability to connect with people from many different places(most relevant post internet and especially now with kpop), the pulse for music that has often ended up being "validated" later on (the beatles, the monkees, the beach boys, robbie williams, even justin timberlake), the creative environment with stuff like fanart, cover videos, dance covers, remixes, fanvids, even fanfiction, and the complex relationship with girls and other young people feeling free and safe to express attraction and their sexuality in this setting - the last one mina touched on, but briefly; there are also interesting angles of young queer people and their relationship with boybands and their fandoms. conservative fretting over this freedom was actually behind a lot of the derision towards beatlemania, for example. fandoms existences are complex like any other large community.
@@hopeferlizz i actually think it would make perfect sense as they are the biggest boyband we've had in a long while, globally. maybe since the beatles. their career and their fandom dynamics have a myriad of interesting similarities and specific differences with other boybands and kpop boygroups, and that informs 1- their western success 2- kpops current wave globally 3- how ppl view boybands/groups in general right now. what was weird was that she didn't mention them, or went deep at all into the current interest in kpop groups, though images were used; but to be fair maybe that would be too much for just one video. still, it felt a bit incomplete, using anecdotes from 2nd gen kpop and then...not talking abt this relationship right now.
I’m almost 23 and even though my 5sos era and then bts era are finished I still like to go back and listen/watch their stuff (not to mention that I still truly exited for new 5sos albums). I like to read fanfictions occasionally or even go back and add a couple of sentences to those I was writing at the time. It brings me comfort, it reminds me of days when I didn’t have to pay my rent and buy groceries. I was just happy. All I knew in life was to fixate on specific boy and ignore those douchebags around me, those that would call me fat but “my boy” would ask me to eat well. And I also really cherish the memory of my mam being involved in my journey and telling me stories about her fangirl experience. It is genuinely the best time in my life and I’m happy that I get to share this experience with other now women. Thank you so much for this episode, I enjoyed it very much!!
I feel this about 5sos (I never got into K-pop), I’m 21. I even had the same haircut as Mikey for part of highschool and going to their concert will forever be a wonderful memory (I went when they toured with Hey Violet before Hey Violet got bigger).
I'm an ateez fan (kpop). I got introduced to kpop by SHINee, so they'll forever be close to my heart. I was 1D fan when they were still active and I just gravitated towards kpop. Kpop is slowly filling the void 1D left. Ateez are such good performers. I love their lore, music, choreographies and vocals. It's hypocritical being called "just a fangirl", especially by people who could break a tv screen if their favourite football team lost a match.
@@JaneDoe-kx3yz Yeah but that's not the case for every fan. I'm an adult, I have a job, I have a boyfriend and I love BTS also. People think that being a fan of bts means that you're a child or you are delusional and it just rubs me the wrong way. A lot of us love the music, their message, the way they carry themselves and their personalities. That's pretty much it.
EXACTLY! it has always been that simple for me.. people making such a big deal of liking a boyband is just stupid in my opinion.. like chill bro, some of us just wanna listen to the music!
As a kpop listener (since “stans” on twitter don’t know how to act) I like the community kpop brings out, and sure if someone were to talk sh*t about a situation, like Jeongyeon from Twice for example, when people make fatphobic comments about her, I will defend her. It’s perfectly natural to Stan by your groups. However I do know that there is a threshold that many stans cross which I think is hard to return from. To me, that way I keep myself from crossing that line is to reflect on other accounts. In other words what really grounds me is the stan Jimin accounts that tell me to k*ll myself. It’s really humbling.
this reminds me of a tweet i saw today 'kpop is fun til u remember it preys on ur vulnerable human emotions to make u so deeply invested in the parasocial relationship that u either spend exorbitant amounts of money to validate that relationship or watch sadly from a distance while the people richer than u do just that' the industry surrounding boybands couldn't live without a cycle of exploitation and desire to turn a profit as large as possible
Loved this one. My younger sister was really into Kpop, while I tended to obsess more over Jdarama characters and fanfiction, but the "experience your full range of emotion in a safe direction" totally stands. (I mean, also the escapism of it, happening basically during middle and high school, when the pressure to perform and hyperfocus on impending adulthood just keeps mounting). I think even as an adult, any crushes I develop focus on unattainable unavailable people, and if it ever morphs into something with actual potential, that's too real and too scary, no thank you. :) Disney's "Turning Red", released in a couple months before you released this video, does a lovely and respectful portrayal of teenage fans (doesn't go into the perspective of the boy band at all). ... I appreciated your highlight that teenage girls enjoy being rowdy and loud in a similar way to teenage boys, but that the context of sporting events is normalized, while boy band concerts (potentially a safer venue both emotionally AND physically?) is stigmatized.
I'm so glad I've found my safe space.. I just got into a heated argument under a TH-cam video because someone mentioned Taehyung.. The name calling, the hateful words.. I still haven't recovered. My goodness.
3 things that would be great to discuss: a deeper conversation around the “not real music” piece, boy bands who break the mold like BROCKHAMPTON, and generally: BTS and ARMY. Surprising lack of talk about BTS here considering they’re the biggest artist in the world right now and I think there’s a lot of reasons for that outside of marketing, etc. Also - I’m glad you brought up twilight because in retrospect the way it was treated in the media/cultural zeitgeist was heinously misogynistic towards teen girls under the guise of critiquing twilight’s narrative quality. People just want to hate the media young women find value in because they hate young women, not because the media is objectively bad. Edit: spelling lol
When you call it a phase and act all this high above it all like only teenage girls would like this is so patronizing and it’s exactly the type of language that has been used to belittle teenage girls and their interests, like is perfectly normal for a boy to like sports and continue to like them until he is older but just because boy bands are liked by teenage girl then there is just no way that is normal and we should punch down on teenage girls and their interests which is awful
Calling something a phase is NOT inherently negative. You aren't lesser than anyone else for losing interest in something and it becoming a phase. It's your perception of the word "phase" as being negative. It's completely normal that your interests would change because we as people also change, and it's a given that teenagers go through a lot of changing (hormones *cough cough*) and hence most of the phases would happen in that period. Some of them carry into adulthood but most don't. For boybands it's even more likely that it would be a phase. First of all, hormones will do sh*t whether or not you want them to. Second, having a lasting relationship with a friend or partner is hard enough, you'd have to love them as you both go through all sorts of metamorphoses, what more a parasocial one. I'm willing to bet you're the one feeling patronized, but don't be seriously it's normal lol
@@abimon76 you are assuming that all people that like “boy bands” are teenagers which is where your hormonal influence starts and ends but there are a lot of bands who are liked no matter the age range and don’t end up been a phase of a teenager that is just the box that some have place upon “boy bands” to patronize their fandoms and just put down whatever is like by a mainly teenage fandom which alienates the rest of the audience and tells so much about how we look at teenage girls
@@elenymm same, i only have one kpop album because i wanted the cd (i still have a cd player dont ask why) and it came with all these posters and stickers and i don't know what to do with them
@@kimlip_tree2009 I buy albums and stuff but I don't trade or buy. I pull my bias a lot and like all the members of the group so I don't mind getting any of them. I just put the stuff away in a box on my shelf. And it just is there... 🤷♀️
In México we have a boyband from the 80s called Menudo, and HBO Max has just released their documentary: 'Menudo: Forever Young', where they highlighted all the abuses and injustices that happened to the members of the band as children/teens. It´s really abominable. Also... I won´t tolerate being criticized for my love towards any boyband, not when that person freaks out during a game of football or any other sport. 💅
i was (and still am) a huge fan of shinee and one thing i've loved about them in the later years of their career is how honest they've been. key actually recently stated on a tv show that SM is not a family, and that he is a contract worker-and that's definitely not the first time one of the members has said something similar. idk, maybe its because i'm 23 and the facade of boybands was broken for me but i just prefer to enjoy a boyband/music group that just does/says whatever they want (in a morally good way obvi) and shinee is that ideal of that for me
Yes very true, I love how honest they all come across as. And when Kibum said if we were normal we wouldn't last this long haha. I do truly believe Shinee themselves are quite close, even thinking about how much they have been through.
I think that's why I personally feel quite appreciative toward bts and the brand of honesty they have to them. Especially off late, they've been more open about their struggles, about how they don't live together anymore, how they feel burnt out, and so much more and are therefore taking newer and different approaches to their artistic abilities seperately. They've literally always been so authentic. Their music too doesn't fit the usual boyband-ish rules. They've also always addressed their own struggles as well as larger societal issues as well. Something that has become a little annoying now is the fact that the bts authenticity is being made into a brand and being marketed to us in the newer up and coming bands. Everyone is talking about self love (bts's breakout era of music revolved around that concept), everyone is trying to replicate their psychological and storyline concepts. As you said, the manufacturing factor of this market is so heavily disturbing. As a very "diehard" fan myself, I completely acknowledge the parasocial relationship this is and as you said in the beginning as well, it has it's negatives as well as it's positives. A lot of my friends who also engage in such a relationship are usually aware that these aren't people we personally know and can control. I think it's that control factor that when it comes in, ruins it all. As long as you know and acknowledge it as art or through merchandising, etc. that this provides you happiness and serotonin, and that it's also okay to form an emotional attachment to whatever band Or it's larger fanbase as well, and you draw clear mature lines and avoid the stalking and hating and being aggressive on online platforms, etc, you're good. It's important to acknowledge that these are real people, not just the perfect marketed persona. In my opinion, it's possible to have a healthy fan experience, truly. It does require understanding and maturity though. As long as you are a self aware person who acknowledges the nature of this psychological, completely parasocial relationship this is, you'll be good. There's nothing wrong at all with appreciating someone's art and artistry and deriving your emotional satisfaction through it.
I've felt like this too. I mean, 12 year old me 2 years ago wouldn't be able to explain why I liked bts over blackpink and how it had nothing to do with looks. And I watch more lyrics videos then MVs, does hat mean I love just staring at their faces? Lol. But I don't care anymore, people can believe and do whatever they want, that's not gonna make me dislike bts songs like Spine Breaker witch helped me through times I felt insecure. I'm not obsessed (not that there's anything wrong with that) I'm just someone who enjoys something and engages with it. Just like how a read Webtoon and write werewolf story ideas on my notebook.
Lol you've gotta be lost if you think they're being honest about all those things. And or they'd been honest. Everything about bts is scripted too but it's fun to go along with the play because it hurts no one and actually been positive impact so far.
@@ginsu_pd no cuz fr,after watching the video as well, u can't really claim that bts shows us their authentic selves . They're a worldwide icon ,and there'd be absolutely no way they're "authentic ". Especially when you've got a million eyes on you
In another universe, Mina is May Lee fangirling over SHINEee and turning into a red panda at their concert. I like this fan-girling/boying era we live in only if we don't turn into saseng! BUT I would never trust a company after SM - TVXQ, YG- 2NE1, CUBE - BTOB, JYP - Wonder Girls, TS Entertainment - B.A.P. and many more examples of how the bubble just pops and starts smelling everywhere. p.s I like how this is coming after BlackPink's comeback and uses kinda the background sound from Pink Venom. Personal opinion - I think the comeback is disappointing after such a long wait, but it is what it is I guess (in the comment below I explain why I think that).
Disappointing how exactly? What did you expect? This is a group under YG ENTERTAINMENT, this is how they do this. It's kinda silly to think otherwise 😅
That's actually another good example that she could have included in the video. How it was depicted in the movie Turning Red. How the impact of a cultural phenomenon inspired part of a plot of a Disney movie.
@@flonny1340 Tbh I expected more and I think a lot of people that appreciate the music (not only the visuals and how expensive everything is in the video and promotions) do. "Pink Venom" sounds like "HYLT" and "HYLT" sounds like "Kill this love". All produced by Teddy and I think songs like "Pretty savage" and "Lovesick girls" (when YG actually works with other producers/songwriters) are much more Black Pink and let them show how they abracadarba this shit. And I'm not even gonna mention how Pink Venom is with the craziest lyrics out there atm (the whole song reminds me of GG's "I got a Boy" - just a mess. Catchy but a mess). Anyway, I just hope YG don't do them dirty like 21 and the girls grow more and more (even outside the group) so they don't just kind of disappear if something happens with the group as we know unfortunately their industry puts an expiration date to artists and groups (even more unfortunate to women and example here is SM with SJ and GG, YG with BB and 21 witch makes my blood boil).
I enjoyed this video. As a Black girl during the boyband era, I would have loved to see some B2k, IMX/Immature representation. Lovely content as always though.
Or B5 ^-^ Sometimes I wonder where the line is between r&b groups and boy bands in terms of genre and racialized categorization. Groups/boybands in the 90’s like Jodeci, Blackstreet, Jagged Edge, etc. don’t get enough mainstream appreciation like Backstreet Boys and N’Sync do. After watching the NKOTB vs New Edition performance at the AMA’s, it really puts things into perspective.
the other day i was watching the return of superman with haru and then jonghyun came around and i thought "wow he was still with us at that time" and... gosh... it broke my heart...
I wasn't even a kpop fan while he was alive but learned about his impact and started listening to Shinee later. He always reminds me that we as fans never know what idols are going through, no matter how honest and smiley they seem.
Did anyone else notice that everytime she mentioned k-pop getting big in west or the word k-pop it was with BTS on the screen LOL. YOU'RE AN EXOL AND SM STAN BUT YOU CAN SAY BTS' NAME , IT WON'T HURT YOU . AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT VIDEO MISSED IS BOY BAND STANS OR KPOP STANS ARE NOT JUST TEENS LMFAO .. IF WE TALK ABOUT BTS THEIR FAN DEMOGRAPHIC IS MORE IN 20s and 30s then in teens also like nothing wrong with being a teen fan BUT THIS STIGMA ASSOCIATED WITH BTS BEING HAVING TEEN GIRLS AS FANS PISSING ME OFF LIKE I'M LITERALLY 23 AND AN ARMY HELLO?? YOU SHOULD HAVE COVERED HOW BOY BAND FANS ARE NOT JUST TEENS I DON'T NO WESTERN WHITE BOYS BUT THIS MISCONCEPTION AND STIGMA NEEDS TO STOP.
20:20 Also want to bring up the fact the Baekhyun (EXO) and Taeyeon (SNSD) were forced to break up because of fans hating and trashing on them for dating and years later, now Chen (EXO) still getting hate from some fans for dating, getting married, and having children, something completely NORMAL, especially considering their age. It’s crazy how out of touch from reality some fans can be
@@iexist8099 Unfortunately despite complaints about that, K-pop idols were never made to be human. Training non-stop, monitoring image since they were kids at times. It worked for K-pop getting global acclaim.
the best part about my hardcore bts fangirl years was the fact that i found my lesbian life-partner in that fandom. i love irony (but not as much as i love her).
34:30 that’s an interesting point, not so long ago DPR IAN - a Korean-Australian singer who used to be in a kpop band - released a song called Miss Understood and he dedicated it to the female fans who may have felt dismissed cause they couldn’t get what they wanted when they needed it the most (we can assume it was love, support or as the title implies, understanding). Even though he’s an indie musician now this resonates with those words.
on the "only good advertisement allowed" section i couldn't think of anything else but Seventeen. these dudes will take any chance to drink and promote in the most ridiculous ways. they are also super conscious and open about having to be funny and get their screen time, it's hilarious. Going Seventeen (and many others, i'm a multi with a lot of free time) has been such a great support in my life and, honestly, even if it's all an act, i am okay with that. that's their job and i'm the consumer, the only thing i'm entitled to is respect, so nothing more fair than to be respectful with singers/entertainers too edit: i gotta mention that my current obsession is txt, i'm a moa since debut, but binge watching all of their rn is so entertaining
5:58 "They can also be a group of friends [...] with common interests that come together authentically like the Beatles." *plays a clip of George pushing John into oncoming traffic* That part just made laugh a bit LOL. Another banger video Mina! As a huge Beatles AND Backstreet Boys fan, this was fun to watch. Thanks for another awesome video :)
A shout out to black boy bands 1. Boys 2 men 2. The temptations 3. B2K 4. B5 5. Day26 6. Mindless behavior 7. Next town Down 8. Dru Hill 9. Jodeci 10. Jagged edge 11. LSG
as a person who grew up casually being a fan of the jonas brothers, 1D and whatnot , and now a semi casual fan of some groups in kpop, (kpop being my first actual fan experience) i will say i found it funny how no matter the band, people still teased and picked on the fans for liking something aimed to cater to young girls. Kpop gets the most hate too when there are a lot of good messages these groups try to send out, the main three being "love yourself", "be yourself" and "you can do it" and i find that very nice, anyways i like that people are starting to talk about this more
Although I enjoy some boy bands, I can’t and will never understand why do many of them are mistreated from such a young age but fans don’t fully bat the eye. Like , it’s known what they did but the companies are never fully held accountable. For example , what happened with Menudo and One Direction sometimes was just heartbreaking .
Some boybands right now still active are 5SOS (yes they are and always have been, coming from an og 2012 5sos fam girlie) why don’t we, PRETTYMUCH (although they’re terrible people), CNCO, tbh I’d call the ASAP mob and wutang clan boybands too since they’re all men and make popular music (if kpop bands that do hip hop are boybands then so are western groups too)
When people claim that boy bands are overly feminine, we need to remember that both femininity and masculinity in our society are defined largely by and for men. We aren’t only attracted to stereotypically hypermasculine men. I think we even conform our attraction to societal norms of masculinity and as we grow up we learn that it is the male-defined hypermasculine jock type that we are supposed to be most attracted to.
While I do think that discussions around boy bands and beeing a fangirl are important, I notice how in discussing bts people focus the most on their looks, interaction, fan content etc, while generally omitting their music and art impact. I mean The Beatles did eventually grew up from their boy band image and really established themselves as critically acclaimed artists and songwriters. Others bands like One Direction or N’SYNC made nice and pleasant pop music, boy band format was definitely restricting for them music wise. Some aspects of boy bands like merch, fan content, good looks and just generally strong visual did play their roles in bts popularity. But to be honest their music is what makes people drawn to them and what makes them popular in the first place. Just like the Beatles, who have created unique albums, like Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band, bts have strong music identity. I think in discussing modern boy bands and popularity of kpop, we lack a narrative around music.
Just a quickly reminder, saseang사생 is pronounced ‘sa sang’ instead of ‘say sung’. And about this I always find fun how the fandom works in a way that strengthens the loyalty of fans. Saseang exists and harms the artist -> the fans pity their idols for going through so much hardships and even can’t even rest well due to saseangs -> makes them wanna devote so much more to the idol and become overprotective towards their idol
I feel for all east Asians, as a south Asian I know the struggle of being mistaken in ethnicity. I keep getting called Indian, I'm Pakistani and my friend is Indian, but keeps being called Bangladeshi. Also, Bigbang Rules. I'm so giddy about their new song x'D
I got into kpop during the lockdowns. I think the parasocial relationship made me feel less isolated cause I wasn’t able to meet with friends. I think you presented all the pros and cons, but mostly I enjoy seeing my family think I’m weird for my fan girling
I saw someone recently say that its not gonna be long before 1d gets the beatles treatment n we have grown men that as teens/tweens would make fun of girls for liking 1d, gatekeeping them n telling the women that were around from the beginning that they dont actually get it, n honestly even tho i was never rlly into 1d i dread that day. Why cant men ever be normal when they realize media targeted towards young girls can be good?
Honestoy I started my boyband fangirl fase late, being 2014 with The Vamps and 5SOS leading to 2017 with BTS and kpop. And tbh I was never a big fan of 1D but I acknowledged the talent, specially Zayn, Harry and Niall who I thought back then were the most liked ones.
@@absolutelynotellen of course James was a big fan of Taylor Swift and they had really good songs, but people didn't pay them much attention despite their hit songs with Shawn Mendes, Demi or Matoma
im so happy that me being into in my case bts was never an issue bc my mom is in her late 50s now and a massive take that fan she's worse than me when it comes to album collecting, like she has everything ever in all versions available and everyone has to take her serious so no one can make fun of me either hehe
Hmmmm I remember back in fifth grade me and my friends were really adamant to condemn One direction fans as silly or uncool, but we still drooled after emo bands like My Chemical Romance and Bring Me The Horizon with identical enthusiasm and mannerisms; reading fan fics, knowing trivia about each member, the posters, band members being set to seem romantically involved etc. perhaps they weren't manufactured as meticulously idk, but looking back it seems like the flipped side of the coin for the "alternative" consumers
yes!! it's also funny to remember how at one point all those bands were on the front pages of teen girl magazines, portrayed the same way as any typical boy band member lol
The toxic environment of the music industry, including allowing sexual predators into positions of authority and abusive control over singers bodies and social lives just reminds me how even more regressive the entertainment industry is in workers rights. Its horrifying!
Eehh you can tell the topic of this video was not researched enough, its a surface level analysis just like those videos of "the dark side of kpop". Besides you bring nothing new or interesting to this topic, at least in my opinion of course. It's just a repetition of ideas we've been hearing quite a lot in the recent years. Also I thought we were over that thing of calling a phase when women enjoy something, unless you were trying to be sarcastic
I've been in the boy band wagon since I was 6 yrs old thanks to the Jonas Brothers and at my grown age of 21, I still haven't hopped off it, and as a kpop fan, I don't think I will for a good while 😅
Even before the whole “boy band” thing, that type of female “hysteria” existed in the “classical world”. Liszt is a notable example. He’s one of the first musicians really put on a performance, both in his virtuoso style in his compositions and arrangements, and with his touring (he’d even bring his piano around with him from town to town). There are stories of women fawning over him, giving him locks of their hair, fainting, etc. As a music university student just thought I’d share this fun fact.
i still remember just how much they antagonised zayn for leaving one direction, calling him a betrayer, selfish and arrogant, when he literally left for the sake of his *MENTAL HEALTH.*
I wish youd stop assuming all fangirls are teenagers. It seemed like you were implying that it is something a woman must grow out of as they get older lol. Let us have our small silly hobbies. Especially since you yourself are a young woman with a niche hobby, its disappointing that this is your take.
i was a the wanted stan back then and being a middle schooler, i think i still had those "i'm not like other girls" tendencies and that made me gravitate towards the wanted and not one direction like all of my peers. the wanted's image was these bad boys who smokes, drinks, and goes to clubs every weekend. they're very cheeky and max even had a nude photoshoot for a magazine at one point lmao. funny enough, tom parker (god bless his soul) said in an interview later on, that having to keep up that image was very tiring and unhealthy, and that the wanted are just a couple of nerds who'd like to stay in once in awhile, he had quit smoking not long after they announced the hiatus. two of the boys in the wanted had long term girlfriends during the peak of their career (one of them eventually got married, and the other one is engaged now i think) and the rest of them had more freedom with dating as opposed to other boybands that were active at the time. and from my own experience, i think i barely see any hostility towards the boys' partners from the fans. i think that while the wanted was still a (very) manufactured boyband, their fandom dynamic is definitely slightly different from other boyband's.
Not everyone is like everyone. We are all different in our own way. Of course their are other girls who are not like each other, Accept it. If you can’t accept that then that reflects how damaging your insecurities are. We’re all different in our own way, that’s life and reality.
I personally feel like teen girls can like nothing without being criticised weather it’s boybands or something else
*whether. But yeah. :/
I mean, teenagers in general are HORRIFICALLY annoying. But at least girls are clean.
Remember vsco girls? People literally made fun of girls who wanted to save the environment.
@@kittykittybangbang9367 That's what made them VSCO girls??? I just remember it being a fashion thing. Thanks, I learned something new today!
@@justanawkwardnerd I think it was just a fashion thing, but one of the things people would make fun of vsco girls for was "OMG save the turtles" or something like that.
Like why are we making fun of girls who want to save an endangered specie? Oh that's right, misogyny.
@@francookie9353 guess you’ve never been to a girls high school bathroom then or even a public womens bathroom😂
i used to be OBSESSED with those “funny moments” videos, because they created an idealized image of the popstar in my head. For a lot of girls, they seem to become someone you can almost be friends with. but as i grew older, i eventually realized how “overly perfect” and micromanaged these lines and personalities became. it’s really sad to think that someone was being forced into a “perfect persona” like that.
felt this.
Same
Samee
Dang this hits hard
Yes yes yes yes
Skinship isn't a kpop thing. That's just a part of Korean culture. When I first moved to America I didn't get why guys were so afraid of touching each other. I don't mean that in a sexual way but it's just... they never gave casual shoulder pats or hugs to each other and it took me a while to get accustomed to. It was only when I got older that I realized toxic masculinity was a thing.
People do forget that that is a cultural thing...conveniently.
I think a big part of it is exactly as you said “I don’t mean it in a sexual way” here in the US we literally do not have a way to communicate the concept of platonic or friendly physical contact. You either touch some one sexually or you don’t touch them at all and since most guys aren’t trying to have sex with their male friends they don’t really touch.
thank you for this! its the only part that irked me in this video. a lot of people who are used to western culture forget that when they consume cultures from other countries they should have an open mind about whats normal and whats not.
Exactly here in Asia skin ship between homies / best friend are extremely common it's in Asian culture
But seriously the way male idiots being labeled "gay"because of normal skin ship just boils the blood out of me like wtf?
I definitely think it's important to show these forms of platonic affection on-screen so that people dont get up in arms about it in real life, but unfortunately a lot of viewers miss the point and use that as an excuse to ship bandmates instead. said fetishization doesn't do much to ease casual homophobia, which a lot of toxic masculinity stems from.
My ex-boyfriend disdained boy bands and loved the Beatles. When I reminded him that the Beatles started as a boy band (with my mom as a fan long before he was born), he openly sulked.
EX boyfriend period!!!!
Good on you for ex-ing him hahaha
the thing is that later they started writing their own songs and pushed boundaries of music, cause they were one of the first bands ever, modern boybands will forever be just boybands
@@sweetbunnybun ummm, a lot of modern boy bands write, produce, compose,... and actually work on their own music.
Or at least the ones that I know about.
what made them a boyband in the beginning? What is the difference between a boy band and an all male band?
The parasocial relationship is pretty frightening. EXO's Chen married his long-time girlfriend and they were having a child together. He literally has to issue an apology for getting married as a grown-up adult. The Kpop fan culture needs some examination.
mte but I'm at least glad when he revealed he's getting married, it's on his own terms, unlike getting exposed by dispatch. it took him getting most of the brunt to start normalizing celebs revealing their marriage on their own to their fans
well he sign he is a product ! he can choose to not use fans make them believe they are in close relationship ... i don't have pity fr him lol
The parasocial relationship is not the issue. It's how it was nurtured that is. You train fans to act how you want and expect of each other but the labels become carlesss in the nurturing that they don't take heed so long as they hit the big numbers profiting
The way there were actua physical protests Infront of the sm building to have him kicked out of exo is INSANE
@@Jsarmy87124 please add /s thank u
This is pretty easy to answer (easy, not simple): psychologically it's a safe love. One defined only by your imagination. It's what's so appealing to many people. A real relationship is hard, and scary, and you learn very quickly (I hope) that you don't have any control over the other person (or people, not judging), and worst of all, it can end.
The danger of it is when someone tries to transcend their internal fantasy by trying to make it real. We need to be cognizant of our parasocial relationships.
This is so true lmfao after a very bad relationship I'm starting to feel comfortable with the idea of a boyfriend only in these "safe spaces" liking a celeb creates. I know it won't happen so I don't have expectations and I have fun with it exploring the idea of love and what I want in a relationship without exposing me again to another person that can hurt me like it happened. It's kind of healing only if we keep things rational and logical
you put it into perfect words!
Is it truly safe? Maybe if you see it for what it is and leave it behind at some point or at least change your approach to it as you get older. I think some people end up causing themselves long term damage just by living in a fantasy.
That’s not the case for everyone who likes a boy band. Actually it’s a little annoying how we can’t like something without it being analyzed as some sort of bizzarie, or psychological phenomenon.
I remember reading something similar in regards to the Takarazuka Revue and how the male characters are acted out by women, although I don't remember if this was from Jennifer S. Prough's Straight from The Heart: Gender, Intimacy, and the Cultural Production of Shōjo Manga or from Deborah Shamoon's Passionate Friendships: The Aesthetics of Girls' Culture in Japan.
as someone who is still on kpop Twitter, that woman saying "Ringo has a sexy nose" was super hilarious to me. some things never change, huh?
as a 12-year kpop veteran i couldn't help but go "oh ffs that sounds like me"
What even is a "sexy" nose?
@@candydemure when the nose hot
Lmao as a kpop stan I laughed so hard cause it reminded me of when some of us kpop stans well go " omg he has hot hands" and it's like a random picture of an idols hands 😭
txt beomgyu has a sexy nose~~🥲
You mentioned the fetishization of Korean men but another thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the infantilization of the members. Especially now that I'm older, people try to defend group members for racist acts by making them seem like a child when really they're grown men. Or they get mad when a 25-year-old man has alcohol. It's so strange
same! it's annoying
Yes! Back in 2009, I'd think it's so "cute" when they're having little spats and stuff and someone pointed out that grown men fighting isn't something that should be viewed as is. There's a lot of things that you can misunderstand when you're younger and heavily invested into the media, and it's important for fans to learn that their idols are human too and are probably the complete opposite of their personas.
they will get so shocked when they see certain idols drink, swear, smoke or talk about smex and they’ll be like: 😱 *LE GASP* I thought he was innocent~~ when he’s in his late 20’s
It’s kind of their cultures fault for the infantilization of these entertainers. I see the TV my Korean MIL watches and there is this purity and cuteness that they push on these young adult artists.
Also, many of their song themes are a little more innocent compared to the western bands, hence pushing further that puritanical and cuteness image.
i completely agree with you . And when you start to explain it to them it turns in to a war
As a former Directioner in middle school/early high school, the fandom gave me connection and ability to be my full teen girl coming-of-age self with other teen girlies who has the same passion! It was a full time hobby running 1D fan pages on multiple social media platforms. Honestly, a wonderful time in my life to come home to 1D fandom when I was an insecure kiddo at school
The awkwardly meta moment when Mina's talking about parasocial relationships and you totally have one with her
Literally me😭
Same haha ❤❤
Boy bands traditionally have a teenage girl fandom, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with young women being excited about something they're passionate about... but I have to say the BTS fandom goes way beyond the teenage demographic. ARMY made a census of the fandom this year, with more than 500,000 participants and it turns out almost 70% of the BTS fandom that participated is made out of people over 18 years old. I'm a BTS ARMY and I'm about to turn 36, and I'm part of a community of armys that are around my age, so I know for a fact that ARMYs are from all ages and backgrounds.
EXACTLY BUT GUESS WHAT SHE MUSTN'T KNOW THAT SINCE SHE WAS AN EGGOS AND SM STAN 💀😂
that's such a beautiful thing about being an army while people may label us as crazy fans but to tell you the truth this level of devotion is not something I have seen anywhere with any band. while there are negatives to everything I can positively assure that the positives outweigh and I think big part of it comes from the genuine support of the members themselves like they are respectful and supportive of us as well. and I wasn't a fan as a teenager so idk how it would be different for me but as an adult BTS has only had positive impact on me cuz their message and their personalities have inspired me to be a better version of me for the sake of me. it feels more of a connection as humans to them like it's okay to not know them or them knowing you and still having this respect established as strangers like that's the best part. also from their most recent songs and how they have been recently I feel like they are slowly morphing themselves more to be directed to adults since they themselves are proceeding to their 30's as well so their message would be more relatable to people who are closer to their age demographic and I'm quite excited to see what they have next coming for their solo ventures and individual colors.
@@evianblue you're so right, and this connection between BTS and ARMY is very hard to explain. We don't know them personally and they don't know us, but there's a respect and love that, like you said, I haven't seen before between other artists and their fandoms. I'm a devoted fan cause they give me so much, that I feel the need to give them back. Their music and message has been of great support to me through the hardest times and an endless source of happiness and inspiration. I'm too super excited for what's to come for BTS and ARMY. With BTS and ARMY in my life I truly feel like I never walk alone.
This is not a singular BTS thing lol. Most women are still fans of their groups even once they are older. And all bands have fans older than they are. BTS isn’t special, it just seems that way because their fan base is big because they began to market right at the height of the Korean media boom. I’m not saying they aren’t extremely talented, but their fan base has the same range as other fanbases previous to them.
And if I’m a little annoyed, it’s because of the gross comment about Mina “not knowing because she’s a SM fan 💀” as if that’s somehow an insult. Can people stop their pathetic Stan wars for one second and take in the fact that this was meant to be an informative video on boy bands in general?
@@PunkHime89 I'm sorry but I think BTS are special. I'm not young, I was a Backstreet boys and Hanson fan back in the 90s, and they are OK, I mean I still like those groups mainly because of the nostalgic factor. Then I became a fan of rock when I was 14 until today... Bands like pink floyd, muse, Foo fighters, queen, led zeppelin, black sabbath, nirvana.... Until BTS came to my life, and I swear I still can't believe I'm such a devoted fan of a boy band. I'm telling you a little bit about my musical interests cause I'm not someone anyone would think loves a boy band, but I do cause BTS are special. I have seen my fair share of bands and musicians, but it's rare to see a pop group that writes lyrics with such depth, poetry and compassion. They truly care about the message they want to give to the world and mostly, to their fans. I can't even begin to explain how important they have become to me and how talented they are in so many ways, but their lyrics and connection to their fans is something rare.
BTW, I don't get involved in fan wars, it's not my thing. Even though I think it's weird Mina didn't mention BTS by name and just said "kpop" when BTS is the biggest band in the world right now, it's not enough for me to get involved in fan wars. As you can see, non of my comments attacked her, I'm just speaking about BTS in a very respectful manner. And it's OK if you don't like BTS, you don't have to.
If I could just make a minor correction...? The term "skinship" isn't a kpop exclusive term, it quite literally is just a normal word in usage in Korean (actually it's a loanword of a loanword from English (meaning skin to skin contact from mother to child) to Japanese (any kind of physical affection) to Korean (which retained the Japanese meaning)). it refers to any kind of platonic, non-s*xual physical affection/touching between two people, including family, friends, and lovers - so as an example, a hug would be considered a type of skinship - and isn't limited to two people of the same gender. I think it's a bit of a misnomer to say it's a kpop term, unlike something like stan or what not. There's been a lot of interesting articles written about the concept of "skinship" as a cultural thing because it doesn't really have a direct translation despite the term being in English.
Thank you for the definition. I have heard and read this word through social media, YT videos, and Vimeo videos. And sometimes the person talking speaks so *fast* that I don't know the terminology or the background sounds (really annoying) keep on blocking out the word. I love learning different verbs, adverbs and terms from other countries! ❤
I think a lot of people learn new words, concepts, views etc through kpop & assume it's limited to that, rather than part of a larger culture.
I like some kpop & find the differences in culture & societal norms, compared to here in the UK, incredibly interesting. I often go down rabbit holes & try to learn the wider context & what is common in which countries. Of course some nuance is lost & hard to understand unless you hear it directly from people who have experienced it but social media (& google translate) makes assessing those people so much easier.
I find different cointries/cultures incredibly interesting, I went to a multicultural school so maybe it set me up for being more aware of differences & norms? I do think some over- romanticism & almost fetishisation of kpop idols could be improved if people were willing to realise many aspects aren't limited to kpop & different countries try/cultures often have positives which they can like & even emulate.
Building on that point made about men acting the same way at their sporting events, it reminded me of how my dad recalled having to be tear-gassed at a SOCCER GAME, because the crowd was too rowdy. I think it’s important to note that girls have the same pent up energy that we see men expressing, yet we are ridiculed for showing it, while men get to play it off as just “having fun”.
Do they? Because law enforcement gets involved in rowdy football fan behavior. Girls are not jailed for liking a singer.
@@elenymm it was in greece. no one was being arrested.
@@elenymm I think she’s talking about public opinion and acceptance, rather than law acceptance
I think both are ridiculous, I judge guys who foam over sports more than girls who love a band, cause I can understand that more
@@elenymm you knew exactly what they meant and just acting stupid on purpose. “RIDICULED” did you just glance over that part? When do you see sports fans get ridiculed as much as fangirls do?
As someone who's been known as a fangirl all my life, I feel like this video is perfect aaaa thank you for always delivering
Hanson was asked in an interview a few years ago why they are considered a boy band like BSB instead of just a band like U2, even though they've always played instruments and they never danced. Hanson answered: Sexism. Any time there's a fan base of predominantly girls/women, it is instantly dismissed as not being legitimate. Even the Beatles weren't taken seriously until they created an album that the screaming girls' boyfriends liked (Sgt Pepper's).
I'm not a major Beatles fan so idk for sure if his example is true, but I always liked his answer.
"Or at least are trauma bonded together" ABSJSHDKDGD
The scary thing about the boyband formula is that it works no matter what. No matter if you know they are being abused behind scenes and no matter if you know deep down that the ships and their relationship is not a 100% real. I made fun of my big sister for liking The Backstreet Boys and I felt like I was an intelectual for realizing the formula and thinking that she was being overdramatic over getting tickets for them but then in 2011 I fell for One Direction and I couldn't concentrate on anything else except them, they literally made me learn english just so I could understand their interviews, I was a whole new person and if anyone made fun of them I would go insane as well I was convinced Larry was real, and with all this my little sister made fun of me and said that she couldn't believe I fell for their propaganda which is now awfully funny since she fell for BTS like two years ago and can't stop talking about them. I can't even make fun of her because I was there. It's like a curse.
It rlly is a curse I used to make fun of my friends for liking kpop boybands and look at me now I feel like a hypocrite for laughing 💀
nahh yall larry shippers are a different breed lol
and good for ur sis for finding bts. shes in good hands they r genuine and talented guys who at this point r family for life, like there isnt anyone who loves the members more than the members themselves
The non threatening presence is why I fell in love with Tom Hiddleston. I was 22, going through my first break up, I worked at a movie theater and there was Loki on all the posters (Thor the Dark World came out less than a month before the break up, which in hindsight I knew was coming). And I was in a bad mental state. My love for him isn't gone 9 years later, but it is muted. It's no longer a huge thing. I'm happily married and projecting my love that had just been rebuffed onto a man who could play the villain and act like the nicest guy in the world made me feel safe. He would never disappoint me. Loki wouldn't think I was too fat. Tom Hiddleston wouldn't dump me over the phone. It was safe.
Hello! I'm currently a 21 year old black man. I've been a big fan of BTS since early 2017, and as I've grown up into early adulthood, I'm seeing a lot of what you're saying about teenage girls and women in general from an outside lens. I was introduced to them from a female friend of mine at the time and since then, I meet many other girls and women who stan BTS but very few boys and/or men. And it's very disheartening to see that the narratives surrounding girls and boy bands/groups hasn't changed much at all. So I stand in solidarity of the fans who aren't crazy stalkers. Fanfics, shipping, etc. can be fun and a stress relief if not taken too seriously or projected onto the members in real life.
Overall, I appreciate the video; I love to analyze the phenomenon of boy bands and why I stayed in the fandom (besides the music being so FUCKING good). I especially appreciated the historical aspect, which I never knew about. Yet another instance of black creatives being ripped off of and not receiving credit or profit.
i have to disagree. fanfics & shipping are pretty harmful and just weird. why treat real people like characters?
21 is still really young haha
same! i’m 21 and still into kpop :) wouldn’t have it any other way!
when it comes to kpop, i feel like the community is so strong because there are SO MANY ASPECTS of it !!
apart from singing (covers) and the music in general, there is for example dancing (many people enjoy learning kpop choreographies and form dance groups or attend random dance plays), collecting merch (photocard trading/selling communtity is very nice - apart from the scammers :// ), drawing (fanart from realistic portraits to cute illustrations), writing (mostly fanfic tho ☠), even video essays!! (analysing outfits or complex lores)
something for everyone, you know ;)
BTS is the only boy band I have ever been a genuine fan of and I'm closer to my 30s than my teens, I just really relate to their lyrics, they tell the truth no matter how ugly the truth is. Their music can be angry, aggressive, scathing and sarcastic, other times it is desperate and vulnerable and most often it is deeply empathetic and comforting. While they validate how hard it can be to live in this world, they always include a thread of hope that life can and will get better.
I feel exactly the same - just you expressed it so well! Most of us who truly love the whole BTS canon of music see it as much, much deeper than “boy band,” and I actually feel a sting when they are always referred to that way. I think it might be because a lot of non-fans know them through the context of songs like “Dynamite” or “Butter,” which, while lots of fun and happiness, do nothing to showcase their depth as lyricists, composers, or social commentators. It felt like they were expressing things we all were really experiencing, socially. And they brought out the darkness of that while still reminding us to love ourselves and to keep trying, that the world is worth helping. It’s hard to explain that to people who just see pink hair and stop at that point.
@@bhaktichaudhary1797 I love how the people who see the pink hair then stop at that point tend to accuse fans of being superficial, such delicious irony.
I tell people I became a fan after watching them perform Go Go, wasn't really interested because I thought it was a party song but turned on the subtitles kinda going "what the hell, I'll see what they are singing about." And literally the first lyric I read was "there is already a mortgage on my future." Immediately after reading that lyric, I was overwhelmed with an impending sense of doom as I contemplated the reality of my economic future, but accompanying the doom was relief that someone had said it. I've been a fan ever since 😂
that was really beautifully said
I think it would have been helpful to explain exactly why the “rabid fangirl” narrative perpetuated by the media is problematic
Except she perpetuates it by calling it a phase that young girls like :/
I mean ... it's misogynistic and taps into archaic notions of female hysteria and presupposes that any woman who isn't prim and proper and quiet is deviating dangerously from the appropriate normality of what women should be.
But we all already know that; what else is there to say?
What else is there even to say about it that hasn't been said already though?
@@RenaissanceRockerBoy Dude absolutely not. Calling something a phase is NOT inherently negative. In this case it's not negative whatsoever. Normal people all have phases. Phases are not just for rabid/emotional/hysterical people.
I had a knitting phase. Some people knit for their entire lives. But it's completely normal that your interests would change because we as people also change, and it's a given that teenagers go through a lot of changing and hence most of the phases would happen in that period.
For boybands it's even more likely that it would be a phase. First of all, hormones will do sh*t whether or not you want them to. Second, having a lasting relationship with a friend or partner is hard enough, you'd have to love them as you both go through all sorts of metamorphoses, what more a parasocial one lol. I mean when justin bieber went to jail I tore his poster off my wall, i was like 11 😭 it's like that. Young people are messy and beautiful, let it be
Coming from someone who’s never been into boy bands but was part of fangirl culture (in the form of Wattpad and fanfiction): it makes me super upset to see all the double standards forced onto teenage girls even til this day. Girls can like Starbucks without being called “basic” yet every boy in existence plays video games and that’s “complex and individualized etc…” It’s like society can’t leave girls alone, which is just another extension of misogyny since boys pass by virtually invisible. And this is no different for fandoms; while there are valid criticisms to be made about fangirl culture, it’s often used as a way to tear girls down with no alternative outlet for their feelings.
I was teaching a kid’s summer camp a couple weeks ago, and what struck me the most was the boys loud and stark protest to anything they deemed “girly”. And these boys were no older than eight!! It’s virtually conditioned into them to view feminine activities and entertainment as inferior as _literal toddlers_ whilst the male-centric stuff, such as robot fighting, are considered “the standard” that all people can enjoy (we were watching robots btw, and the girls had not a word to say about it. They didn’t complain half as much as the boys when it came to traditionally masculine activities).
And this mentality seeps into adulthood and reveals just how deep the vitriol towards feminine coded behaviors and traits runs. I’m so happy I’m about my twenties, because I was getting exhausted of having to defend myself against society’s unfair labels put on teen girls; but it’s also extremely sad at the same time. Men can engage in violent, derogatory, and insanely harmful content that actively destroys many women’s lives and it’ll be passed off as harmless fun, while girls can barely have a crush without being treated with disgust. Just look at the way corn and soft core corn is perceived versus smut, to give an extreme example. Smut is most commonly consumed by women, and (while it definitely can perpetuate toxic ideals and expectations) is largely mocked whereas corn (and things like Girls Gone Wild, which is notoriously exploitative and debilitating to the girls featured in it) has active, negative consequences involving real people that society readily encourages young boys to consume, or at least diminishes the harmfulness of. It’s just frustrating that we’re constantly held to an insanely higher moral standard, while simultaneously being expected to carry the emotional labor of teaching and correcting young boys on the bad habits that were never course corrected for them in the first place.
princess tutu fans are so intelligent
You just completely encapsulated years worth of my thoughts into one youtube comment thank you 😭
I say this as someone who generally does not enjoy playing video games. I can assure you no one thinks of guys playing video games as "complex and individualized." Video games are seen by a lot of people as a waste of time. Think of the stereotype of the fat nerdy gamer who never leaves his room. There are equal amounts of criticism for both sides, you just mostly see criticism against women because you are a woman. Most men will mostly see criticism directed towards men because they are men. People just need to step out of their circle to realize that. There are different corners of the world/internet that criticize different things. Most people only ever see the backlash against their own demographic because it is directed at them. Yes, a lot of this kind of backlash is unnecessary, biased, and hurtful but it exists on all sides
There should be some type of repercussions that protect BoyBand members rights, health, & safety from obsessive fans and predatory management. &these videos need to spread more to show obsessive fans how they are part of harming the Boy band members. That is NOT love. Give them privacy! Stop bullying their friends! Accept their choices!
@NitroFairyWing so true & it's been normalized that celebs getting abused is part of the lifestyle. Not right at all
I was a Tokio hotel fan long ago and I never involve myself much with the fandom because even as a teen I tough some fan girls were kind of too much,they fought about the members "love" as if they were their girlfirends and treat the band as their property,like if they have any contact with a girl they freak out and were toxic , I still stand by this just because you like and suport a band and buy their merch does not mean they own you something or they are your property and have to stop having a life outside the stage that applies to pop boy bands, k pop, etc
@@VelvetKatOfficial
The fact that as soon as someone disagrees with them or doesnt know them nor they are interested,they get so bullied... not to mention how women always get harassed... just as mina mentioned sehun situation ... those same people also flipped when he was asked if he was gay, as if its a bad thing...?he himself said that he likes that he has male fans
Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts on this topic, as it's truly important. I also think that bringing attention to the exploitation boybands face in global music industries, and how deeply woven that exploitation is in the very identity of a boyband, is something that can always be helpful. I think boybands are extremely varied and nuanced musical acts, many of which have great songs, great public moments, and great contributions to pop culture--many of which have the opposite. However, there is a common thread of exploitation that they face, and stigmatization that their fans (usually young women, as you point out) face, which does not get covered with the empathy and research that it deserves, in my opinion.
I do have some reservations, however, with the video. Even though the video is framed as a defense of boybands, and to some extent, of the young women in their fandoms, I truly don't think the video gives that much time towards actually defending boybands and fangirls. From the initial historicization pointing out the manipulation boybands utilized to gain fangirls and appropriate Black music (all valid critiques and important to note), to the many examples of 'manufacturing' that creates these boybands in the second section, to the many examples of pathological and abusive fangirl behavior in the third section, the vast majority of this video, in my view, is actually offering a pretty standard view of boybands as 'fake' and fangirls as 'crazy.'
In particular, I think this is troublesome given that the video seems to aim for the opposite, and labels itself as the opposite, and acknowledges the harm of this view, but still ultimately perpetuates it. It's not that the boybands aren't exploited and manufactured, and that the fangirls don't often partake in negative behaviors--it's that these are the ideas that dominate discussion of boybands, that people already know and weaponize to attack young women for their fandom behaviors and to attack young men for their public facing images. In other words, it felt more like a 'dark side of boybands' video than a 'defense of boybands' video.
I know you also received critique for including BTS in the thumbnail, but avoiding discussing them in the video (there are, instead, numerous anecdotes about your admitted former favorite group, EXO), and while I think that was probably not the best approach, I also don't think it is all that horrible a thing to do. I understand why you may have chosen to avoid talking about a group you don't feel connected to; however, it does make sense that some were put off by your inclusion of them in the thumbnail, and utilization of them throughout the video in b-roll.
I'm sure many people, including many young fangirls, came to this video with the expectation or hope that it would present an alternative, liberating view of their fandom engagements--not necessarily a depiction of perfection, but a depiction of a different side of their behaviors, a depiction of the good parts of fandom and boybands that many people don't talk about due to industry exploitation, misogyny and homophobia.
With that, I find it kinda disappointing that your video doesn't dive into those ideas for particularly long. Even the section wherein you touch on fanfiction being a creative outlet feels like a backhanded positive note. Overall, I wouldn't be surprised if actual positive perspectives on boybands spanned less than half of the video. I do hope that, if you decide to talk about this subject in the future, you could maybe revisit those perspectives and shed some more light on those positive aspects, perhaps talking about your personal experiences as a former boyband fangirl, the ups and downs, and the positives that you saw in the experience that perhaps others simply wouldn't understand due to prevalent ideas about fandom and young women.
All in all, though I didn't particularly love this video, I appreciate the effort to bring forth these important conversations--ones which I have studied for a few years and are quite close to my heart.
this!!!
This!!!! A thousand times
I agree.
++++
Thank your for putting my thoughts into words! I couldn't figure out how to explain my feelings at the end of the video, but this summarizes them well.
One tiny correction… George and Ringo were switched on the clip with their personality labels. Love this topic- I grew up in the 90s and loved *NSYNC and was so sad when I was older and learned about how difficult their lives were at the time and afterward because of trauma from the experience. My dad grew up in the 60s a huge Beatles fan so I guess it runs in the family!
I find the critique on boy band fans so interesting. I have been a bts fan for years now, and survey after survey on fandom demographics have shown that the largest percentage of fans are in their 20s and 30s! I do see that as time goes on there has been an interesting shift in demographics. I’ve seen a number of older women and men being part of these fandoms too
I think that trend needs to be explored more. Do the psychological mechanisms at play with younger target audience still apply? Are there any different reasons and ways in which older fans engage with the fandom or are they indistinguishable from the teens?
Their economic impact is felt because someone's gotta pay for all that merch and 9 different versions of one album.
@@elenymm bts only did 4 versions of albums years ago when everyone was doing bundles in the west & east. i know bts are the face of kpop but youre talking about the other groups who sell bundles and 10+ albums to get a facetime call from their idols lol
@@mercurymaiden2391 I am talking about other groups. This phenomenon isn't restricted only to BTS.
So true! I’m a new BTS fan and I’m 30. Lol!
yeah BTS are getting sponsored by phone and cars brands, you can't say that they only target little girls with products like that because who the fuck buy a car for their 12 years old, obviously it targets older demographics
I wasn’t into boy bands as a child, I was a small lesbian who desperately wanted to be not like other girls. It wasn’t until I was about 17-ish that I actually decided to have fun and enjoy music, but I used to tell people that my celebrity crush was Zayn lmaooo. So thanks Zayn for being my beard
I used to be a fangirl but I’m also not interested in men. I feel like kpop stars were safe crushes and people to say I has a crush on while I was closeted. I mean they were literally unreachable: they were in korea and famous.
When it comes to looks and kpop, I find fans to be hypocritical. They will criticize the companies for having visual as a position and forcing plastic surgery and diets BUT THEN they will also drool over the abs and tight clothes of idols all the time. Not to mention that in practically every group the most popular member is "the prettiest one". The only reason why companies act the way they do is because fans act the way they do. And these HUMAN BEINGS are stuck in the middle of everyone's expectations.
They will not only drool over abs and tight clothes, they will *also* lash out at every idol they deem not pretty enough, too skinny or too fat. I swear there is no middle ground among kpop stans. If we follow their logic, everyone is anorexic or obese. I support many Kpop artists, but I lost count over the number of times I came across inappropriate comments from kpop stans.
Note : I'm talking about kpop stans as a group/community, not as individuals.
@@ashrise my least favourite part of it is that they will say Korean fans do that and Korean culture puts insane pressure. Ok, sure. That in no way implies that international fans are better, but they always act holier-than-thou.
@@elenymm I hate this part too. I'm pretty sure it's the international fans who normalized skinny shaming in Kpop. :/
I get your perspective, but I find that the people who seriously and genuinely criticise the standards and pressure in the industry are usually not the ones who blindly "drool" over someone's looks.
(If you see the kpop fans as a homogeneous group it might come across that way but that's not really realistic.)
Additionally, I think it's entirely possible to criticise that people are held to insane standards and still acknowledge that someone is indeed pretty in your opinion.
For example, people who are mainstream-attractive are also more successful on TH-cam. Yet I'm not gonna stop watching Mina just cause she fits into that high standard and is above-average pretty.
@@Mad.E I have actually seen someone bash a company for their standards in one tweet and then tweeting a fancam of an idols butt in the next one a couple of minutes ago. And it definitely is just one of the examples.
Recently an idol from my favourite group talked about being on a diet and fans were all "oh no, eat what you want". That guy is always objectified for his looks. And when I commented that you can't have it both ways, people justified their behavior by saying that the entire industry is like that so what can they do. (Think about that for a second. The hypocrisy blew my mind.)
Of course not all fans are the same, but I honestly can't put that disclaimer in every comment.
I also think there is a difference between acknowledging that someone is handsome and publicly commenting on how you'd like to pin him against the wall and lick his abs (that's just a mild example, hopefully you get what I'm trying to say.)
You got Ringo and George mixed up when talking about their assigned roles in the band!!
this!!!
Yess I was seeing if anyone else noticed the inner George Harrison fan is reeling
Yes!!! I’m glad someone else saw it too!
I'm a BTS fan and I'm from Liverpool and have always loved the Beatles and as soon as I saw that I was like WTF 😂 guess she only knows Paul and John
I heard of George as the quiet one and Ringo the funny one growing up
Tiny correction: Obsessive fans in Korea are called "Sasaengs" (사생) not
Sesang (세상) .
Sesang means world in Korean and is a common term.
Edit: corrected Romanisation of 세상
Ik some letters was missing somewhere 💀
Thank you for this
Thank you I knew both these words are different but when she said saesang I got so confused and tried to come up with an explanation for why they'd call obsessive fans world and thought maybe it's because by being obsessive thier own world only revolves around the celebrity so they can be called world
Thank you for the correction. I slightly cringed at the 세상 part.
this!!
One more tiny correction world is sesang세상 it’s not saesang새상 that you mentioned, saesang means nothing in Korea
Jackson Five was huge, but New Edition, Temptations is never mentioned when people talk about boy bands. Frankie Lymon and the teenagers were really good too. Most modern boybands got all their influences from them. Shout out to them. So happy you covered this! I Love BTS too.
The refusal of society to just let teenage girls enjoy things without labeling it cringey, basic or embarrassing will be the death of me
Edit
To be clear I am not accusing Mina of doing this. I agree whole heartedly with everything she said. I simply just needed to get something if my chest
Can we just admit that it can be cringy and embarrassing though? Maybe it's just that I am older and don't care because I like what I like, but I think self awareness goes a long way and shows maturity better than anything else.
@@elenymm I think we can let it go because it ain't harmful - the social criticism of it pushes young women more into it as 'No one understands me'. If people were more open minded, young women will pass through it normally like a phase.
The music literally does suck though. Boy band music is some of the most soulless , generic music made out there. Even 1D members hate the music that they made as a band because it's manufactured and frankly it sucks.
And yes fandoms are absolutely cringey and embarrassing especially the 1D fandom.
@@joebidenjr5902 I don’t think being generic is a bad thing, just because A Hard Day’s Night sounds like every other pop song from that era doesn’t mean it’s not fun. Every music genre has very good and very bad music lol
THANK YOUUU I WAS LOOKING FOR THIS COMMENT
Boysbands are always affiliated to what young girls like and as something negative. Like having a majority of women followers ain’t the flex of the century.
Besides the stereotypes i feel like these groups have more freedom nowadays.
Yes, these groups have more freedom nowadays but there is still *a lot* to improve. The Kpop industry is still toxic.
@@ashrise i’m not talking about kpop industry especially since ALL the music industries are like cursed. they just seem to have more freedom.
@@LondonBlue i really hate that mindset people have. i hate how it personally affects me too by letting it get to me and i feel ashamed sometimes because of my interests :/
i think something i really appreciate about bts is that i never feel like a crazy fan girl even tho many interviewers will try and push that label onto us, and in front of them too. you’ll see the boys change the direction and point out that we are so supportive of them and they appreciate us so much. like yes you can’t speak for all armys like you can’t say anyone one group of people is perfect but there are some amazing positives i’ve seen some do, such as donations and bringing awareness to many topics. but that’s never the stuff that gets pointed out most of the time
exactly! they treat us with respect because they know not all their fans are crazy and that our support is what keeps them at the top. it’s nice that they refrain from belittling fans (at least publicly) like everyone else does
@@kittenluver4lyfe I've seen people belittle armies tho. I think it's only within the kpop community where army gets respected like you say, but anyone outside kpop will look down on any kpop fandom. And ngl, even I find it creepy sometimes. I understand being a fan of a certain artist, but I've seen some army's, which, to you they may seem like they're doing good, but they get so defensive about BTS that it creeped me out. I know BTS has done many charities and they've probably helped many of their fans when they felt low and whatnot with some of their music, since it's what I've heard has happened. But I cannot fathom how it's possible to love people you've never met to the point some army's do. Not just army, other kpop fans as well. I've seen some bizarre posts on Quora where some army will trash other kpop groups just because they see no other hand other than bts being good. To them BTS means their entire life, and that outright creeps me out. I know this is bad behavior, the toxic side of fandoms, but it has happened way too many times to just ignore it. I have nothing against BTS, but I have everything against those people who obsess to a degree where the only thing left about their personality is BTS. Humans are complex, there's so much more you can like
@@sin3358 if you say that armys are respected within the kpop community, I'll assume you have never interacted with said kpop community. they literally made an "independece day" to get armys out of the kpop fandoms lol
this video brought up a lot of interesting context, but it honestly.... didn't feel like a good defense of boybands? its sympathetic to the artists, but only focuses on the negative aspcts of boyband history, doesn't delve neither into the healthy aspects of fandoms like it said it would, or the actual music and its impact. from acting like its always just a phase to flying over the actual music trends started by boybands, their impact on the music industry , cases of groups that have a different perspective, it felt like every other discussion of it, if less condenscending. the impact of motown groups, the beatles reshaping of the entire music industry, bts' recent unique place on an international music space, and the trend of lasting boybands being "recognized" by male critics later in their careers (when largely young female fans have made them established) are a few things that could've been delved into. theres some misinfo about kpop here too that other ppl have mentioned, (skinship, sasaengs), more complexity to the 'hysteria' stereotypes that could've gone deeper
I agree
I agree agree and also throwing BTS into the pile doesn’t make any sense
What are healthy aspects of the fandom
@@sonamy1231000 the underexamined but actually extremely impressive capacity for organization, the strong sense of community a lot young fans develop, the various friendships created in a fandom space, the ability to connect with people from many different places(most relevant post internet and especially now with kpop), the pulse for music that has often ended up being "validated" later on (the beatles, the monkees, the beach boys, robbie williams, even justin timberlake), the creative environment with stuff like fanart, cover videos, dance covers, remixes, fanvids, even fanfiction, and the complex relationship with girls and other young people feeling free and safe to express attraction and their sexuality in this setting - the last one mina touched on, but briefly; there are also interesting angles of young queer people and their relationship with boybands and their fandoms. conservative fretting over this freedom was actually behind a lot of the derision towards beatlemania, for example. fandoms existences are complex like any other large community.
@@hopeferlizz i actually think it would make perfect sense as they are the biggest boyband we've had in a long while, globally. maybe since the beatles. their career and their fandom dynamics have a myriad of interesting similarities and specific differences with other boybands and kpop boygroups, and that informs 1- their western success 2- kpops current wave globally 3- how ppl view boybands/groups in general right now. what was weird was that she didn't mention them, or went deep at all into the current interest in kpop groups, though images were used; but to be fair maybe that would be too much for just one video. still, it felt a bit incomplete, using anecdotes from 2nd gen kpop and then...not talking abt this relationship right now.
I’m almost 23 and even though my 5sos era and then bts era are finished I still like to go back and listen/watch their stuff (not to mention that I still truly exited for new 5sos albums). I like to read fanfictions occasionally or even go back and add a couple of sentences to those I was writing at the time. It brings me comfort, it reminds me of days when I didn’t have to pay my rent and buy groceries. I was just happy. All I knew in life was to fixate on specific boy and ignore those douchebags around me, those that would call me fat but “my boy” would ask me to eat well. And I also really cherish the memory of my mam being involved in my journey and telling me stories about her fangirl experience.
It is genuinely the best time in my life and I’m happy that I get to share this experience with other now women.
Thank you so much for this episode, I enjoyed it very much!!
I feel this about 5sos (I never got into K-pop), I’m 21.
I even had the same haircut as Mikey for part of highschool and going to their concert will forever be a wonderful memory (I went when they toured with Hey Violet before Hey Violet got bigger).
True
I'm an ateez fan (kpop).
I got introduced to kpop by SHINee, so they'll forever be close to my heart.
I was 1D fan when they were still active and I just gravitated towards kpop. Kpop is slowly filling the void 1D left.
Ateez are such good performers. I love their lore, music, choreographies and vocals.
It's hypocritical being called "just a fangirl", especially by people who could break a tv screen if their favourite football team lost a match.
Hi fellow Atiny!!!!💖 ((also i definitely agree!!)
I just wanna say that some of us just really like the music and the singers personalities.
exactly
Theyre literally manufactured to build a parasocial relationship with u
@@JaneDoe-kx3yz Yeah but that's not the case for every fan. I'm an adult, I have a job, I have a boyfriend and I love BTS also. People think that being a fan of bts means that you're a child or you are delusional and it just rubs me the wrong way. A lot of us love the music, their message, the way they carry themselves and their personalities. That's pretty much it.
EXACTLY! it has always been that simple for me.. people making such a big deal of liking a boyband is just stupid in my opinion.. like chill bro, some of us just wanna listen to the music!
As a kpop listener (since “stans” on twitter don’t know how to act) I like the community kpop brings out, and sure if someone were to talk sh*t about a situation, like Jeongyeon from Twice for example, when people make fatphobic comments about her, I will defend her. It’s perfectly natural to Stan by your groups. However I do know that there is a threshold that many stans cross which I think is hard to return from. To me, that way I keep myself from crossing that line is to reflect on other accounts. In other words what really grounds me is the stan Jimin accounts that tell me to k*ll myself. It’s really humbling.
At this point i'm an adult and I don't think its a phase. I think i'm just in this BTS shit for life tbh
this reminds me of a tweet i saw today 'kpop is fun til u remember it preys on ur vulnerable human emotions to make u so deeply invested in the parasocial relationship that u either spend exorbitant amounts of money to validate that relationship or watch sadly from a distance while the people richer than u do just that' the industry surrounding boybands couldn't live without a cycle of exploitation and desire to turn a profit as large as possible
i saw that too 💀
17:23 noooo you got george and ringo mixed up 😭😭
For real 🤦🏻♀️
Loved this one. My younger sister was really into Kpop, while I tended to obsess more over Jdarama characters and fanfiction, but the "experience your full range of emotion in a safe direction" totally stands. (I mean, also the escapism of it, happening basically during middle and high school, when the pressure to perform and hyperfocus on impending adulthood just keeps mounting). I think even as an adult, any crushes I develop focus on unattainable unavailable people, and if it ever morphs into something with actual potential, that's too real and too scary, no thank you. :) Disney's "Turning Red", released in a couple months before you released this video, does a lovely and respectful portrayal of teenage fans (doesn't go into the perspective of the boy band at all). ... I appreciated your highlight that teenage girls enjoy being rowdy and loud in a similar way to teenage boys, but that the context of sporting events is normalized, while boy band concerts (potentially a safer venue both emotionally AND physically?) is stigmatized.
The One Direction to BTS/kpop pipeline is so real….my journey took several years but I ended up just like everyone else 😭
fangirling bts for me will never be just a phase, its a literal lifestyle at this point😭
same 😭😭 it’s almost unhealthy how I can’t stop thinking about them every single day. The literally changed my life.
Same! They deserve it tho, they have done so much for us :D
I'm so glad I've found my safe space.. I just got into a heated argument under a TH-cam video because someone mentioned Taehyung.. The name calling, the hateful words.. I still haven't recovered. My goodness.
How long y'all have been a fan?
@@satviksingh1200 for me, 6 years
3 things that would be great to discuss: a deeper conversation around the “not real music” piece, boy bands who break the mold like BROCKHAMPTON, and generally: BTS and ARMY. Surprising lack of talk about BTS here considering they’re the biggest artist in the world right now and I think there’s a lot of reasons for that outside of marketing, etc.
Also - I’m glad you brought up twilight because in retrospect the way it was treated in the media/cultural zeitgeist was heinously misogynistic towards teen girls under the guise of critiquing twilight’s narrative quality. People just want to hate the media young women find value in because they hate young women, not because the media is objectively bad.
Edit: spelling lol
YES THIS CAN SHE PLEASE MAKE A PART TWO
When you call it a phase and act all this high above it all like only teenage girls would like this is so patronizing and it’s exactly the type of language that has been used to belittle teenage girls and their interests, like is perfectly normal for a boy to like sports and continue to like them until he is older but just because boy bands are liked by teenage girl then there is just no way that is normal and we should punch down on teenage girls and their interests which is awful
How old are you
We should shame grown men for liking sports.
@@sonamy1231000 this^ LMAO
Calling something a phase is NOT inherently negative. You aren't lesser than anyone else for losing interest in something and it becoming a phase. It's your perception of the word "phase" as being negative.
It's completely normal that your interests would change because we as people also change, and it's a given that teenagers go through a lot of changing (hormones *cough cough*) and hence most of the phases would happen in that period. Some of them carry into adulthood but most don't.
For boybands it's even more likely that it would be a phase. First of all, hormones will do sh*t whether or not you want them to. Second, having a lasting relationship with a friend or partner is hard enough, you'd have to love them as you both go through all sorts of metamorphoses, what more a parasocial one. I'm willing to bet you're the one feeling patronized, but don't be seriously it's normal lol
@@abimon76 you are assuming that all people that like “boy bands” are teenagers which is where your hormonal influence starts and ends but there are a lot of bands who are liked no matter the age range and don’t end up been a phase of a teenager that is just the box that some have place upon “boy bands” to patronize their fandoms and just put down whatever is like by a mainly teenage fandom which alienates the rest of the audience and tells so much about how we look at teenage girls
Fan girling demands a lot of time and commitments that my lazy personality just can’t do
Lol I’m in this boat. I’ve never really understood it.
I've personally never understood photocards collecting. I find it insane to spend so much money on a piece of paper basically.
@@elenymm same, i only have one kpop album because i wanted the cd (i still have a cd player dont ask why) and it came with all these posters and stickers and i don't know what to do with them
@@kimlip_tree2009 I buy albums and stuff but I don't trade or buy. I pull my bias a lot and like all the members of the group so I don't mind getting any of them. I just put the stuff away in a box on my shelf. And it just is there... 🤷♀️
@@elenymm what groups do you stan?
mina being a shawol and an exol is the plot twist I never knew I needed
17:20 not the editing mixing up george and ringo 😭😭😭😭
edit: no shade, i just thought it was fun.
In México we have a boyband from the 80s called Menudo, and HBO Max has just released their documentary: 'Menudo: Forever Young', where they highlighted all the abuses and injustices that happened to the members of the band as children/teens. It´s really abominable. Also... I won´t tolerate being criticized for my love towards any boyband, not when that person freaks out during a game of football or any other sport. 💅
I heard about that documentary I like Menudo their music is good I have a lot of their albums from each generation
i was (and still am) a huge fan of shinee and one thing i've loved about them in the later years of their career is how honest they've been. key actually recently stated on a tv show that SM is not a family, and that he is a contract worker-and that's definitely not the first time one of the members has said something similar. idk, maybe its because i'm 23 and the facade of boybands was broken for me but i just prefer to enjoy a boyband/music group that just does/says whatever they want (in a morally good way obvi) and shinee is that ideal of that for me
Yes very true, I love how honest they all come across as. And when Kibum said if we were normal we wouldn't last this long haha. I do truly believe Shinee themselves are quite close, even thinking about how much they have been through.
I think that's why I personally feel quite appreciative toward bts and the brand of honesty they have to them. Especially off late, they've been more open about their struggles, about how they don't live together anymore, how they feel burnt out, and so much more and are therefore taking newer and different approaches to their artistic abilities seperately. They've literally always been so authentic. Their music too doesn't fit the usual boyband-ish rules. They've also always addressed their own struggles as well as larger societal issues as well. Something that has become a little annoying now is the fact that the bts authenticity is being made into a brand and being marketed to us in the newer up and coming bands. Everyone is talking about self love (bts's breakout era of music revolved around that concept), everyone is trying to replicate their psychological and storyline concepts. As you said, the manufacturing factor of this market is so heavily disturbing. As a very "diehard" fan myself, I completely acknowledge the parasocial relationship this is and as you said in the beginning as well, it has it's negatives as well as it's positives. A lot of my friends who also engage in such a relationship are usually aware that these aren't people we personally know and can control. I think it's that control factor that when it comes in, ruins it all. As long as you know and acknowledge it as art or through merchandising, etc. that this provides you happiness and serotonin, and that it's also okay to form an emotional attachment to whatever band Or it's larger fanbase as well, and you draw clear mature lines and avoid the stalking and hating and being aggressive on online platforms, etc, you're good. It's important to acknowledge that these are real people, not just the perfect marketed persona. In my opinion, it's possible to have a healthy fan experience, truly. It does require understanding and maturity though. As long as you are a self aware person who acknowledges the nature of this psychological, completely parasocial relationship this is, you'll be good. There's nothing wrong at all with appreciating someone's art and artistry and deriving your emotional satisfaction through it.
I've felt like this too. I mean, 12 year old me 2 years ago wouldn't be able to explain why I liked bts over blackpink and how it had nothing to do with looks.
And I watch more lyrics videos then MVs, does hat mean I love just staring at their faces? Lol. But I don't care anymore, people can believe and do whatever they want, that's not gonna make me dislike bts songs like Spine Breaker witch helped me through times I felt insecure. I'm not obsessed (not that there's anything wrong with that) I'm just someone who enjoys something and engages with it. Just like how a read Webtoon and write werewolf story ideas on my notebook.
Lol you've gotta be lost if you think they're being honest about all those things. And or they'd been honest. Everything about bts is scripted too but it's fun to go along with the play because it hurts no one and actually been positive impact so far.
@@ginsu_pd no cuz fr,after watching the video as well, u can't really claim that bts shows us their authentic selves . They're a worldwide icon ,and there'd be absolutely no way they're "authentic ". Especially when you've got a million eyes on you
@@bangchansonyeondan2016 iyup. Everything is curated
self love isnt a concept lmao how are u trying to gatekeep that😭many other boy bands and singers did that before bts
In another universe, Mina is May Lee fangirling over SHINEee and turning into a red panda at their concert.
I like this fan-girling/boying era we live in only if we don't turn into saseng!
BUT I would never trust a company after SM - TVXQ, YG- 2NE1, CUBE - BTOB, JYP - Wonder Girls, TS Entertainment - B.A.P. and many more examples of how the bubble just pops and starts smelling everywhere.
p.s I like how this is coming after BlackPink's comeback and uses kinda the background sound from Pink Venom. Personal opinion - I think the comeback is disappointing after such a long wait, but it is what it is I guess (in the comment below I explain why I think that).
Disappointing how?
Disappointing how exactly? What did you expect? This is a group under YG ENTERTAINMENT, this is how they do this. It's kinda silly to think otherwise 😅
That's actually another good example that she could have included in the video. How it was depicted in the movie Turning Red. How the impact of a cultural phenomenon inspired part of a plot of a Disney movie.
@@flonny1340 Tbh I expected more and I think a lot of people that appreciate the music (not only the visuals and how expensive everything is in the video and promotions) do. "Pink Venom" sounds like "HYLT" and "HYLT" sounds like "Kill this love". All produced by Teddy and I think songs like "Pretty savage" and "Lovesick girls" (when YG actually works with other producers/songwriters) are much more Black Pink and let them show how they abracadarba this shit. And I'm not even gonna mention how Pink Venom is with the craziest lyrics out there atm (the whole song reminds me of GG's "I got a Boy" - just a mess. Catchy but a mess).
Anyway, I just hope YG don't do them dirty like 21 and the girls grow more and more (even outside the group) so they don't just kind of disappear if something happens with the group as we know unfortunately their industry puts an expiration date to artists and groups (even more unfortunate to women and example here is SM with SJ and GG, YG with BB and 21 witch makes my blood boil).
Omg ts entertainment 💀☠️
Early 1D days was the best time of my life, never felt happier & more carefree
I enjoyed this video. As a Black girl during the boyband era, I would have loved to see some B2k, IMX/Immature representation. Lovely content as always though.
Or B5 ^-^ Sometimes I wonder where the line is between r&b groups and boy bands in terms of genre and racialized categorization. Groups/boybands in the 90’s like Jodeci, Blackstreet, Jagged Edge, etc. don’t get enough mainstream appreciation like Backstreet Boys and N’Sync do. After watching the NKOTB vs New Edition performance at the AMA’s, it really puts things into perspective.
Seeing Jonghyun triggered some massive sadness in me. I met the man, and he was so sweet. Seeing his face just breaks my heart.
the other day i was watching the return of superman with haru and then jonghyun came around and i thought "wow he was still with us at that time" and... gosh... it broke my heart...
I wasn't even a kpop fan while he was alive but learned about his impact and started listening to Shinee later. He always reminds me that we as fans never know what idols are going through, no matter how honest and smiley they seem.
Did anyone else notice that everytime she mentioned k-pop getting big in west or the word k-pop it was with BTS on the screen LOL. YOU'RE AN EXOL AND SM STAN BUT YOU CAN SAY BTS' NAME , IT WON'T HURT YOU .
AND THE MOST IMPORTANT THING THAT VIDEO MISSED IS BOY BAND STANS OR KPOP STANS ARE NOT JUST TEENS LMFAO .. IF WE TALK ABOUT BTS THEIR FAN DEMOGRAPHIC IS MORE IN 20s and 30s then in teens also like nothing wrong with being a teen fan BUT THIS STIGMA ASSOCIATED WITH BTS BEING HAVING TEEN GIRLS AS FANS PISSING ME OFF LIKE I'M LITERALLY 23 AND AN ARMY HELLO??
YOU SHOULD HAVE COVERED HOW BOY BAND FANS ARE NOT JUST TEENS I DON'T NO WESTERN WHITE BOYS BUT THIS MISCONCEPTION AND STIGMA NEEDS TO STOP.
You’re acting like a little girl right there, chill not everything is about them, this was mostly about the og bgs
20:20 Also want to bring up the fact the Baekhyun (EXO) and Taeyeon (SNSD) were forced to break up because of fans hating and trashing on them for dating and years later, now Chen (EXO) still getting hate from some fans for dating, getting married, and having children, something completely NORMAL, especially considering their age. It’s crazy how out of touch from reality some fans can be
How some exo-ls treated Chen in the recent smtown concert is so heartbreaking.
@@iexist8099 Unfortunately despite complaints about that, K-pop idols were never made to be human. Training non-stop, monitoring image since they were kids at times. It worked for K-pop getting global acclaim.
The original black versions of the songs have life and soul to them. NOTHING can beat the original
the best part about my hardcore bts fangirl years was the fact that i found my lesbian life-partner in that fandom. i love irony (but not as much as i love her).
an ideal outcome
Aw
she called george ringo and ringo george lol
34:30 that’s an interesting point, not so long ago DPR IAN - a Korean-Australian singer who used to be in a kpop band - released a song called Miss Understood and he dedicated it to the female fans who may have felt dismissed cause they couldn’t get what they wanted when they needed it the most (we can assume it was love, support or as the title implies, understanding).
Even though he’s an indie musician now this resonates with those words.
I looove dpr gang too much especially IAN his new album is a chef's kiss, think I will go and look up the lyrics from the MITO2 ❤🩹
on the "only good advertisement allowed" section i couldn't think of anything else but Seventeen.
these dudes will take any chance to drink and promote in the most ridiculous ways. they are also super conscious and open about having to be funny and get their screen time, it's hilarious.
Going Seventeen (and many others, i'm a multi with a lot of free time) has been such a great support in my life and, honestly, even if it's all an act, i am okay with that. that's their job and i'm the consumer, the only thing i'm entitled to is respect, so nothing more fair than to be respectful with singers/entertainers too
edit: i gotta mention that my current obsession is txt, i'm a moa since debut, but binge watching all of their rn is so entertaining
I agree with you!!!
5:58 "They can also be a group of friends [...] with common interests that come together authentically like the Beatles." *plays a clip of George pushing John into oncoming traffic*
That part just made laugh a bit LOL. Another banger video Mina! As a huge Beatles AND Backstreet Boys fan, this was fun to watch. Thanks for another awesome video :)
I love that clip of George 😂
All I can think of is Sev'ral Timez in Gravity Falls, they really took "manufactured" to a whole new level lmao
17:24 You've confused Ringo for George and George for Ringo
A correction! 37:07 "Saesang" means "world" whereas "sasaeng" means stalker fan
A shout out to black boy bands
1. Boys 2 men
2. The temptations
3. B2K
4. B5
5. Day26
6. Mindless behavior
7. Next town Down
8. Dru Hill
9. Jodeci
10. Jagged edge
11. LSG
as a person who grew up casually being a fan of the jonas brothers, 1D and whatnot , and now a semi casual fan of some groups in kpop, (kpop being my first actual fan experience) i will say i found it funny how no matter the band, people still teased and picked on the fans for liking something aimed to cater to young girls. Kpop gets the most hate too when there are a lot of good messages these groups try to send out, the main three being "love yourself", "be yourself" and "you can do it" and i find that very nice, anyways i like that people are starting to talk about this more
If it's supposed to be a phase, I've been in it for like 20 years now😅 But I don't mind, it makes me happy!
Although I enjoy some boy bands, I can’t and will never understand why do many of them are mistreated from such a young age but fans don’t fully bat the eye. Like , it’s known what they did but the companies are never fully held accountable. For example , what happened with Menudo and One Direction sometimes was just heartbreaking .
Some boybands right now still active are 5SOS (yes they are and always have been, coming from an og 2012 5sos fam girlie) why don’t we, PRETTYMUCH (although they’re terrible people), CNCO, tbh I’d call the ASAP mob and wutang clan boybands too since they’re all men and make popular music (if kpop bands that do hip hop are boybands then so are western groups too)
“Ringo has a sexy nose” that woman made me laugh for minutes
When people claim that boy bands are overly feminine, we need to remember that both femininity and masculinity in our society are defined largely by and for men. We aren’t only attracted to stereotypically hypermasculine men. I think we even conform our attraction to societal norms of masculinity and as we grow up we learn that it is the male-defined hypermasculine jock type that we are supposed to be most attracted to.
"..looks like he washes his.."
*drops phone laughing*
Omg thank you for mentioning the Monkees 😂🤩 it seems like they’re often forgotten about
While I do think that discussions around boy bands and beeing a fangirl are important, I notice how in discussing bts people focus the most on their looks, interaction, fan content etc, while generally omitting their music and art impact. I mean The Beatles did eventually grew up from their boy band image and really established themselves as critically acclaimed artists and songwriters. Others bands like One Direction or N’SYNC made nice and pleasant pop music, boy band format was definitely restricting for them music wise.
Some aspects of boy bands like merch, fan content, good looks and just generally strong visual did play their roles in bts popularity. But to be honest their music is what makes people drawn to them and what makes them popular in the first place. Just like the Beatles, who have created unique albums, like Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band, bts have strong music identity. I think in discussing modern boy bands and popularity of kpop, we lack a narrative around music.
Just a quickly reminder, saseang사생 is pronounced ‘sa sang’ instead of ‘say sung’.
And about this I always find fun how the fandom works in a way that strengthens the loyalty of fans. Saseang exists and harms the artist -> the fans pity their idols for going through so much hardships and even can’t even rest well due to saseangs -> makes them wanna devote so much more to the idol and become overprotective towards their idol
I feel for all east Asians, as a south Asian I know the struggle of being mistaken in ethnicity. I keep getting called Indian, I'm Pakistani and my friend is Indian, but keeps being called Bangladeshi.
Also, Bigbang Rules. I'm so giddy about their new song x'D
17:25 actually, ringo is the one on the left and george is the one on the right
Okay okay this but with the emo trinity (panic at the disco, fall out boy, and my chemical romance) the obsession with these was REEEAAALLL
I got into kpop during the lockdowns. I think the parasocial relationship made me feel less isolated cause I wasn’t able to meet with friends. I think you presented all the pros and cons, but mostly I enjoy seeing my family think I’m weird for my fan girling
Liking boy bands is never a phase for me. If I like your music I like your music. Band or not.
I saw someone recently say that its not gonna be long before 1d gets the beatles treatment n we have grown men that as teens/tweens would make fun of girls for liking 1d, gatekeeping them n telling the women that were around from the beginning that they dont actually get it, n honestly even tho i was never rlly into 1d i dread that day. Why cant men ever be normal when they realize media targeted towards young girls can be good?
girl my heart was not prepared for the shinee RDD drop right at the beginning of the vid
Honestoy I started my boyband fangirl fase late, being 2014 with The Vamps and 5SOS leading to 2017 with BTS and kpop. And tbh I was never a big fan of 1D but I acknowledged the talent, specially Zayn, Harry and Niall who I thought back then were the most liked ones.
OMG YOU WERE THE VAMPS FAN? BDJDJD NEVER KNEW SOMEONE STILL REMEMBER THEM 😭😭
@@absolutelynotellen of course James was a big fan of Taylor Swift and they had really good songs, but people didn't pay them much attention despite their hit songs with Shawn Mendes, Demi or Matoma
im so happy that me being into in my case bts was never an issue bc my mom is in her late 50s now and a massive take that fan
she's worse than me when it comes to album collecting, like she has everything ever in all versions available and everyone has to take her serious so no one can make fun of me either hehe
I love how you talk about boy bands being a family unit, when Ringo wasn’t even one of the original Beatles and people often forget about that.
Pete Best was the original drummer.
she said “friends and strangers” when talking about the beatles early on to cover for those scenarios
Hmmmm I remember back in fifth grade me and my friends were really adamant to condemn One direction fans as silly or uncool, but we still drooled after emo bands like My Chemical Romance and Bring Me The Horizon with identical enthusiasm and mannerisms; reading fan fics, knowing trivia about each member, the posters, band members being set to seem romantically involved etc. perhaps they weren't manufactured as meticulously idk, but looking back it seems like the flipped side of the coin for the "alternative" consumers
yes!! it's also funny to remember how at one point all those bands were on the front pages of teen girl magazines, portrayed the same way as any typical boy band member lol
Yes!! I was desperate to hate on 1D because I did not want to be like “other girls”… I like them now tho lol
@@freyainnit3193 ayyy same but at least it's nice to discover and enjoy now all the things we were too cOol to do back then😹
The toxic environment of the music industry, including allowing sexual predators into positions of authority and abusive control over singers bodies and social lives just reminds me how even more regressive the entertainment industry is in workers rights. Its horrifying!
Eehh you can tell the topic of this video was not researched enough, its a surface level analysis just like those videos of "the dark side of kpop". Besides you bring nothing new or interesting to this topic, at least in my opinion of course. It's just a repetition of ideas we've been hearing quite a lot in the recent years.
Also I thought we were over that thing of calling a phase when women enjoy something, unless you were trying to be sarcastic
I've been in the boy band wagon since I was 6 yrs old thanks to the Jonas Brothers and at my grown age of 21, I still haven't hopped off it, and as a kpop fan, I don't think I will for a good while 😅
Even before the whole “boy band” thing, that type of female “hysteria” existed in the “classical world”. Liszt is a notable example. He’s one of the first musicians really put on a performance, both in his virtuoso style in his compositions and arrangements, and with his touring (he’d even bring his piano around with him from town to town). There are stories of women fawning over him, giving him locks of their hair, fainting, etc. As a music university student just thought I’d share this fun fact.
i still remember just how much they antagonised zayn for leaving one direction, calling him a betrayer, selfish and arrogant, when he literally left for the sake of his *MENTAL HEALTH.*
“Boy bands must appear clean and sober”
*jackson Wang saying he might be an alcoholic*🥲
I wish youd stop assuming all fangirls are teenagers. It seemed like you were implying that it is something a woman must grow out of as they get older lol. Let us have our small silly hobbies. Especially since you yourself are a young woman with a niche hobby, its disappointing that this is your take.
i was a the wanted stan back then and being a middle schooler, i think i still had those "i'm not like other girls" tendencies and that made me gravitate towards the wanted and not one direction like all of my peers. the wanted's image was these bad boys who smokes, drinks, and goes to clubs every weekend. they're very cheeky and max even had a nude photoshoot for a magazine at one point lmao.
funny enough, tom parker (god bless his soul) said in an interview later on, that having to keep up that image was very tiring and unhealthy, and that the wanted are just a couple of nerds who'd like to stay in once in awhile, he had quit smoking not long after they announced the hiatus.
two of the boys in the wanted had long term girlfriends during the peak of their career (one of them eventually got married, and the other one is engaged now i think) and the rest of them had more freedom with dating as opposed to other boybands that were active at the time. and from my own experience, i think i barely see any hostility towards the boys' partners from the fans.
i think that while the wanted was still a (very) manufactured boyband, their fandom dynamic is definitely slightly different from other boyband's.
Not everyone is like everyone. We are all different in our own way. Of course their are other girls who are not like each other, Accept it. If you can’t accept that then that reflects how damaging your insecurities are. We’re all different in our own way, that’s life and reality.
don’t forget the asian history of singing groups like the hwarangs in korea