Woops, I'm mistaken. Nevertheless, I had a nearly identical issue with a very similar blueprint, and believe me, I tried to apply foundation to it, and it fixed nothing.
"Pile sorter can now load and unload simultaniously" Think of it like if an inserter had two hands in factorio, while one is dropping an item in the belt, the other is already picking up the next batch.
Great explanation. Your analogy can be extended to explain why you need so many more pile sorters than Mk.3 sorters to saturate a belt before you get the "ultimate" upgrade: Mk.3 sorters behave like stack inserters. Their "hands" stay extended over the belt until all their items are dropped. Pile sorters drop all their items at once, so they spend a larger fraction of their time "swinging." To fully saturate a belt you need at least one sorter to have its "hand" over the belt whenever there's a gap for an item, and sorters that spend more time swinging are less likely to be in the correct position when a gap occurs. Adding more sorters helps, but there are diminishing returns because each added sorter makes the belt fuller, increasing the amount of time the other sorters must spend waiting for a gap, which decreases their throughput. The additional "hands" from the "ultimate" upgrade are more efficient than adding additional sorters because the "swings" of both "hands" on a given sorter are kept in sync. When one is over the belt the other is picking up an item from the chest. This is why Nilaus was able to saturate a belt with 2 "ultimate" sorters (4 "hands"), but he needed 5 "hands" to do so without the upgrade. (As with Factorio, you can work around this problem with fewer sorters by inserting onto multiple belts and merging them together, since splitters and belt junctions don't have "swing time.")
Umm a mk3 sorter cannot fully saturate a mk3 belt because it cannot stack.. His tests were wrong... He was feeding 120/sec into those mk3 sorters and then said he was saturating the output but he wasnt since a mk3 sorter cannot stack on belts.
In this episode, Nilaus tests: The equivalent of 'hacked' blue sorters you can't get any more against pile sorters, gets confused why the pile sorters are so bad in comparison to the 'hacked' ones. Ground based weapons in space, can't figure out why they don't work. Blueprints on invalid terrain, claims blueprints are broken. (EDIT: Some others are claiming that it's not invalid terrain.) AoE short-range abilities against long-range groups. AoE energy weapons against single targets. BTW, stick a stack of antimatter charges into your mech when you next go clear a planet. One shot will clear out entire hordes of enemies in a single shot on some of the more normal difficulties, and I suspect that the 1800+ damage on those things probably scales up to even the max difficulty. Their description implies they're intended to just utterly obliterate anything they hit, and they have AoE splash.
No, invalid terrain was not what was going on. I had the same problem. I put in foundation several times to no avail. And I ultimately placed the splitters by hand, which he should have demonstrated, since I'm sure he did that, too.
I've found that a jammer significantly enhances the effectiveness of laser & gauss turrets by ensuring they can't be overwhelmed by waves of units. However, the missile + signal tower combo kinda makes that irrelevant for anything other than protecting your missile base, since you can just spam signal towers and wipe out the dark fog remotely. They either need to move jammers to earlier in the tech tree or make them effective against space units; I'd like to see the shield burst given a larger AOE and having a jamming effect but consuming jammers with each use.
I think there's an issue with comparing these on a save that kept the upgrades to inserter mk3. In new saves, mk3 inserters don't get stack bonuses but current saves keep them from old upgrades: "No longer display upgrades for [Sorter Mk.III] and it can no longer be upgraded for "cargo stacking" (saved upgrades will retain their values)."
A thing about white sorters not transporting as much as the blue ones: because you are playing an old save, blue sorters will still be able to transport multiple items at once, so your build will not suddenly stop working. When you start a new game after this update, you can no longer upgrade the capacity of the blue sorters, so in a new game pile sorters will be the direct upgrade to the blue sorters regardless of the upgrades. Also I think the devs meant to say "instantaneously" instead of "simutaneously" in that last upgrade, after the last upgrade you will be able to load/unload at 4 stacks * 120 times/second (a full belt of 4 stacks) reguardless of the distance, meaning even if you are transporting to/from a belt three tiles away it will still saturate it.
The reason it's load and unload is because of this. The sorter picks up an item, and carries it over, then the arm needs to go back to the input belt, pick up a new item, and carry it over. That's how they work by default. With this upgrade, the sorter picks up the items, then carries it over, and while it's doing that a SECOND arm is grabbing more materials and moving it, then because it's also very fast, the first arm is going back and picking up more items and by the time its done that the second arm is going back to get more. So it's loading the sorter and unloading the sorter at the same time, rather than loading, transporting, unloading, go back, load more, transport, unload. It's as if there's just a PORTAL on the belt that feeds it instantly into the output instead of moving the materials, it's that fast. It's INSANE and I'm sure many people will have lots of fun building stupidly big factories with them.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but wasn't the blueprint faiking because it needed foundation where you were placing it? It kept saying "Foundation Required" when you were trying to place the BP at the equator 21:26
@@haku8135 to be fair it took me a while in my game to figure out where they moved the piler to. My 1st thought was that the devs had forgotten about it.
3:00 Weirdness comes from old upgrades. Here is patch note: "No longer display upgrades for [Sorter Mk.III] and it can no longer be upgraded for "cargo stacking" (saved upgrades will retain their values)."
Prefers Rocket towers which are backline siege units with weak defenses. Calls a frontline jamming unit with slow debuff keeping the enemy from getting into range hitting his favorite glass cannons giving them more time to fire without being fired upon 'Useless'. My guy I love your videos. You are a great inspiration for logistics lessons and I'm still in awe of your ability to math and plan out ridiculously effective factories. But a defense commander you are not. Being able to delay the enemy with a sufficient jammer line means you can reduce the density of your rocket turrets since you won't have to worry about making up for the delay between shots with volume. A reduced rocket density with jammer turret line will be able to hit the enemy twice as much and may save on ammunition costs then going full 'MURICA! FUCK YEA!' in terms of sheer volume of rocket turrets. It's basically trying to shoot someone charging you over flat ground and charging you through mud.
Yeah, Nilaus just went full derp in this video. First off, he's on an old save, so his MKIII sorters are basically hacked and are not working how they will going forward. That's excusable. But literally all you need to do is READ the jammer tower entry, and it says outright it's for GROUND AND AIR, it SLOWS the enemy, it deals NO DAMAGE, and these are NOT SPACE LAND MINES. The jammers probably work in space if you throw them manually, but they don't EXPLODE, I have no idea why he thinks he should be seeing explosions from JAMMING capsules. Then there's the shield burst, which is a defensive measure if you get swarmed, not a kamikaze attack. However, I just checked it myself. Because I have this uncanny ability to read things on the screen, I now know the shield burst is NOT capped at 330 hp. That might be a bug. I just made a burst on world of 6600 damage. So anything swarming you will get annihilated. You don't need to max out the charge either, you can do smaller bursts of damage, but roughly the minimum damage threshold I can reach (My energy shield is 1.5 GJ with a 6 meter radius, so not that highly upgraded for end game) is around 1500 damage. You need a minimum charge up before the burst will happen, so you can't just tap B and hit things. Nilaus was MILES away from ANY enemies, did the shield burst and just went "Well that does nothing and I'll just get killed anyway." Yeah he is very much NOT keen on combat strategy beyond "more missiles!"
What’s nice with the new stack sorters is to use them for pilling on the same belt. Just put the sorter to sort „backwards“ on the same belt. So it takes whatever comes in and stacks it on top of itself until it can’t anymore and lets it through
Wait you ain't meaning what I was thinking. So it became a piler that doesn't take up extra space and an be add on any part of the belt regardless space and vertical height....
13:00 It means that it can pick up a load move it unload it, and pick up another load while unloading the first load. If you zoom in on a slower sorter, you can see the grappler move back and forth. With this upgrade, it turns it into more like a mini-conveyor belt. 25:00 It’s probably meant to be used in conjunction with Signal towers to slow the incoming damage allowing Analyzers to keep up with repairs. Probably works great for farming high level Fog.
Something I noticed is that the jammer has a phase shift. You can set up multiple lines with their phases slightly offset. This has the effect of slowing more of the incoming waves and bunching them up for missile turrets.
The Jammer feels super useful for early game death worlds, slowing down the dark fog can give you those extra seconds for your turrets. And as already mentioned, your blueprint needed some foundations to be placed down, nothing broke, it was just a simple case of overthinking on your part.
Missile turrets are actually extremely expensive with scarce resources. I ended up using plasma turrets for space defense, all they need is a ton of deuterium which I just plopped a bunch of orbital collectors for.
Jammer -> Slow down units, causing them to bunch up. Follow that up with an AoE weapon, and you hit more enemies for the same cost. And it looked very much like enemies were not firing at the jammers.
i can tell you they go for the jammers quite aggressively in my save at least, if they were ignored and could just act as aoe debuffs that'd be very nice because you could place them far forward with their short range, maybe it's something to do with introducing the patch in the middle of a game, maybe a new save is less buggy.
Jammer Caspules and Shield Energy Burst are supposed to be used 'On Planet' mainly, i believe. So testing in Space is a little futile. Deeper thoughts (speculation): Jammer capsules probably trigger on contact with an enemy entity. Enemy Spacecrafts don't have a collision box; good luck hitting them. The energy shield burst is tied to your shield range i believe which is somewhere below 70m at max upgrade? (idk, not sure) Regardless, enemy spacecraft stick around you in 1500m distance? (also not sure) hitting them with the burst, therefore, is akin to a flight with no return.
Jammers deal ZERO DAMAGE. Their function is JAMMING, they make the enemy FIFTY PERCENT slower. Which on a planet is INSANE. These could help you just wipe the floor with the dark fog forces. In massive swarms in space, yeah you'd likely never notice their effects. The shield burst can deal THOUSANDS of damage in a radius around you, mine is only a 6 meter radius, and I can max out at 6600 damage already. Yeah, these aren't really heavily SPACE combat things. Though, we definitely need more space combat options, fighting in space at the moment is basically just, not advised.
@Nilaus your blueprint said "foundation required" in the error message jammer towers can slow by 80%+ when upgraded (still pretty useless when you can just use implosion cannons though) shield burst probably scales with your shield and you did not upgrade it yet really
I had the identical issue. "foundation required" is false. I was able to place my splitters in the exact location by hand. So I guess foundation wasn't an issue after all. I tried smoothing the foundation several times before doing that.
Yes but Implosion cannons have minimum range. Which means that once the units are inside the range, the gun is effectively useless. Now imagine you have some jamming towers JUST inside the midline to minimum range to slow/halt the advance of the Dark Fog into optimal range of the cannon. Suddenly you're able to catch those fast movers that the cannon usually can't hit in a web of slow making it much easier for the cannon to hit. Catching giant blobs of Dark Fog into a presighted artillery position. Do they sound useless NOW?
New sorters, together with the most advanced production buildings based on alien technologies, allow for very compact production with incredible productivity. For example, the production of silicon or titanium requires only one conveyor belt for delivery, while eleven others will issue raw materials. And it takes up very little space! And if you paint all this, then on your home world you can probably recycle the entire star cluster
Comment section gonna be rough on this one... Love your vids, quality is on point new pc looking good ! But my man, the "old piler fell off the list and they forgot it", "blueprint broken" because foundation, jammer tower has an upgrade ammo making it actually usefull... Just for reference, shield burst with lvl 25 shield has 250m radius (10* multiplicator in space), fully charged explosion one taps the 1k dark fog fleets
The piler sorter is WAYYYYY better than the mk3 belt QND it reduces the footprint of normal piler build. Honestly, one of the best addition to the game. All that's missing is some logic to the ILS like "transfer until X items reached", because I ALWAYS bring *wayyy* more solar sails than necessary to complete my spheres and it's tiring to always clean everything lmao
I found a great use for the new sorters. They feed machines WAY faster than normal sorters, great for matrix labs reaching out 3 across.
10 หลายเดือนก่อน +7
Because you used your ongoing game sorters MIII preserved their upgrades, but in the release notes those sorter got nerfed although games that had upgrades for them don't lose those upgrades. Then a real comparison should be conducted on a new game.
What the final update for Pile Sorter really does is remove the distance penalty, so the sorter will pull or push a full belt whether it's next to the building or there's two belts inbetween. It basically means every building has effectively a belt port with logistic station stack output function (except for needing power to operate).
Nilaus did you notice that you can all take the stack sorter and place it directly on a belt in reverse? (as in not outputting from or inputting to a building) It will stack the belt to 4 high just like the piler does, but no hit box.
Whats more is that you can put a pile sorter backwards on the same belt. Transporting the item backwards on the belt. And it will do the same as the sorter. So yeah the piler is basically completely useless now as the pile sorter does the same thing but is more versatile.
With the pile sorter, I think it is talking about on a belt, it can pick up pieces and stack them at the same time it is dropping them on the other side, maximizing throughput.
With the last/final upgrade, pile sorter speeds are no longer tied to distance. So no matter if you move 1, 2 or 3 tiles, it'll always be at full speed. So it will fill a blue (30/s) belt to 7200 items/min (because it's stacked 4 high), at any distance. It will also clear a belt (loading into a chest or whatever) at any distance, at any stack height. The key obviously being "any distance", which I hink is what they mean with "load and unload simultaneously", which is a rather weird description of it.
New PC seems great! Plasma towers in my testing has been useful for leveling up bases faster (and really good at keeping the fog from damaging anything. )
You missed one use for the pile sorter... You can force a belt to be fully stacked. Run a belt from left to right. Add a pile sorter on the belt from right to left (opposite direction of belt) by one space. Basically the pile sorter will feed back onto itself and stack items to 4x... When they cannot be stacked anymore, it passes though at a 4x stack. So you can basically use it as a piler but instead of only stacking if there is a unit next to it, it will for a 4x stack and uses the same power and is more slim. Basically the piler is obsolete now.
Nothing but ground combat updates which I figured to be absolutely usless. I knew for sure nilaus would try this in space!! So I came here. I was to lazy to even try. Hahaha. Using galactic scale and a system has 7 Hives, we need orbital megastructure hangers to send fleets out. The only 2 megastructure we have is the Dyson swarm and Dyson sphere.
Need to do testing to confirm, but I think the pile sorters would top off a partial stack that passes under them. Sounds great for more compact fractionator loops, using belt-to-belt pile sorters to fill each loop belt from a passing supply belt..
The pile sorter can be used going the opposite direction of a belt to stack without taking up the same wide space as the old piler.. This means you can have belts next to each other with stacks of items .. but you never tried it that way..
The plasma turrets are probably nicer for farms, since basic plasma ammo is pretty cheap and has higher splash damage and AOE size than missiles. Early to mid game, at least. The antimatter capsules do like 1300 damage base, and I don't think any current ground enemies even have that much health? Shield burst especially, I suspect is meant more for early game as a panic button if you are getting overwhelmed.
i hope we can get either super weapons. or maybe a weapon ring for the dyson sphere. to keep those pesky fog from settling in. maybe add more utility to the launchers. so its not just solar sails and dyson sphere structure.
I was honestly curious of the new sorters as the description made it very challenging for me to understand, but after seeing them in action, they look fantastic. The only thing I'm not sure about, will it stack output from a factory as well to 4 before dropping it on a belt, or still go to a single one, thus requiring pilers for larger builds which collect to a single belt? Will you give out specs of your new system and the rough FPS change you noticed from it or is that something more likely to be told on Twitch?
If you put 60 mk2 smelters making iron all outputting to the same belt with pile sorters you can get 7200/minute without any splitters, stackers or other tricks. Even if the belt is 'full' the stacker will place the output on top, up to 4 high. So the smelters at the end don't get jammed up with output, they can always output until the belt reaches the full 4x30/s capacity. Test it yourself in sandbox, logistics stations can output infinite amounts of an item by 'locking' it, so you can spit out 7200 iron ore/sec on a mk3 belt without having to setup all the mining to get it. Or a loop from a logistics station set to stacksize 1 outputting a steady stream of 1-stacked iron and have a single smelter output to the belt. Previously it would be stalled, because the belt is already full. Pile sorter places the output on top of the cargo on the belt already, making a 2-stack.
seems to me the shield burst and jammer capsules are more for when you aggro too much and have to run away back to some defense point or to protect your signal towers during expansion. The jammer towers seem only practical for farming (at least as they currently are) or maybe early game on higher difficulties with larger and more frequent waves. everyone has already pointed out the sorter test problem of using old mk3 sorters against the new sorters. the blueprint issue of having a foundation required message has already been pointed out as well. I'm also thinking that some of this, mainly the jammer stuff, is just preamble for some of the space combat and station future plans. I could see having an ability to slow movement of the enemies in space, where you may not be hanging around, could be handy to give time to arrive and defend. Especially if getting building space will be limited. They would need to increase the range big time though, unless they plan on giving the fog landing parties or something.
I had the same issue with the blueprint before the update. It was the splitters breaking for me as well. I tried it on a different planet and then it worked fine.
I decided to not completely convert everything to Mk4 sorter. I only use them where I used to use pilers, meaning on smelter arrays and maybe where I want a stacked input belt prior to ILS stacking research (for example H2 in casmir). Since the uses are so limited, might as well use MK3 for 90% of the blueprints where even it is overkill. and yes, the Jammer is useless even at lower tech or difficulty (I could tell as soon as I read patch notes but testing confirms). I never used implosion cannons so I see no use for SR turrets either.
How do the new sorters handle unloading onto a full unstacked belt? I've heard some good descriptions of how they simultaneously unload and load, but this was my first thought about the description.
So at 15:35 in the video when your testing space jammer it says "Hold To Charge" above the targeting reticle. It seemed you were tapping to launch quickly. At 23:03 it's the same I'm guessing jammer can be charged. I'm at work so can't load a game to test myself.
It always bugged me that the T3 sorters couldn't output items stacked onto the belt. That always undermined the end game where you could have belts stacked 4 high out of the logistics station but the outputs from the build became throughput limited unless you put a bunch of pilers on the belt (which always looked weird).
On the new set up, bloom looks to be rendering a lot around reds. I can't tell if the copper you're using (even though I see the filter is red science; it looks like copper plates) at 4:14 is stacked or not lol.
Jamming tower: I think the main problem imo, is the slow doesn't seem to last very long. If it was 5-10 seconds I could see it being up front. They looked like they were ignoring them. So you could put them up front, then the signal towers to lure them back to the damage towers. But right now, it needing ammo, small range, and the slow is only like half a second if that? Terrible.
Pretty bad miss man, you completely lost the point and power of the new sorter. You're comparing 3 mk3s making a full 1 stack belt, to the mk2 making a double stack at the start, and a FULL belt of 4 stack later...
You are in your let's play world and probably have existing mk3 sorter capacity which is why your mk3 sorters are faster than basic pile sorters. Note that mk3 capacity is no longer an available research.
Bit of a harsh conclusion there. But he's definitely making some assumptions and missing some key info. It does clash with his usual style of already knowing everything, but it's also nice to see his testing. No one will get everything right at the first go. The negativity is a bit of a downside, but still a decent episode.
20:48 I mean, it's early access. Something will inevietably gets broken 🤷♂ Pile sorters looks really neat, no longer having to do "3D binary tree stackers spaghetti" thing for item outputs. Also, not always stacking to highest is definitely intentional, since the excess will get buffered in source inventory to be stacked together at later time. AKA a self-balancing pipe. Now wishing for multi-item type sorter/splitter 😁
Surprised you find missile turrets better than Plasma cannons for space defense, I feel the plasma ammo is far cheaper and simpler to build that 3 tiers of rockets, and the range of the cannons means no invading space fleets get close enough to fire, thus obsoleting the need for a shield. I've just gotten to white science on a death world 0.5 resource playthrough myself, and plasma cannons have saved the day, Missiles are far too expensive!
Hi. Im sorry to say this, but this is one of your bad videos.... normally i like your videos, but this was not good. you have no idea about the new items and you just tried to figure out it (ok, at least parts of it), and explained it... there is more, for example the "bomb" item, you can use ather items too (coal, water, ..) and different items have different effects. you can see in the tooltip if its throwable or not and what effect it will have. the sorter is also useful if you are in midgame with only "1 stack output" out of the inter... if you wanted to make a full belt of it, you had to build some wierd construction 4 belts, everyone have a stacker, then you have 2 belts, going in a stacker again and now you have 1 full belt. (hope you get what i mean, sorry, bad english)... now you can also use the new sorter "on the same belt"... what i mean, you have one belt, you put a gigasorter on it, it will "collect" mutliple items and then drop off 1 Stack. So basically it does the job from the stacker. (just build sorters instead of stackers --> also uses less space). and the Shield burst is i think useless in space but funny at the ground if you charge directly into a core of a planetary base and BOOM.... i hope you playing a bit with it and when you 100000% understand the new thinks you make a new explaining video ;-) ... sorry, its not personal, i just expected a bit more ;-) greetings
I had the same problem with splitters. And I do mean the same problem. It's my blueprint, but very similar, and the splittes wouldn't place. There was no issue with foundations, I covered it several times. Fortunately, the workaround is simple.
I have to agree with a lot of people here, it feels like you didn't really test anything correctly. Using a single tower to see how much it slows down enemies, not showing the better ammo version of it or even the costs... Kind of disappointed Ps. The Dutch Actuary actually has a good video on how everything works including the shield burst
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pZbsSDRrmXA/mqdefault.jpg)
When you are saying the blueprint is broken, the warning it is giving you is that you need foundation where you are trying to place the blueprint.
Was looking for a comment like this since not all splitters were red
I did a quick check ingame. The Blueprint is fine, it's indeed still working.
If you look carefully, Nilaus is placing it on a planet that is covered in concrete.
Woops, I'm mistaken. Nevertheless, I had a nearly identical issue with a very similar blueprint, and believe me, I tried to apply foundation to it, and it fixed nothing.
if you had eyes, you would see that is wrong.@@jgischer
"Pile sorter can now load and unload simultaniously"
Think of it like if an inserter had two hands in factorio, while one is dropping an item in the belt, the other is already picking up the next batch.
Great explanation.
Your analogy can be extended to explain why you need so many more pile sorters than Mk.3 sorters to saturate a belt before you get the "ultimate" upgrade:
Mk.3 sorters behave like stack inserters. Their "hands" stay extended over the belt until all their items are dropped. Pile sorters drop all their items at once, so they spend a larger fraction of their time "swinging."
To fully saturate a belt you need at least one sorter to have its "hand" over the belt whenever there's a gap for an item, and sorters that spend more time swinging are less likely to be in the correct position when a gap occurs. Adding more sorters helps, but there are diminishing returns because each added sorter makes the belt fuller, increasing the amount of time the other sorters must spend waiting for a gap, which decreases their throughput.
The additional "hands" from the "ultimate" upgrade are more efficient than adding additional sorters because the "swings" of both "hands" on a given sorter are kept in sync. When one is over the belt the other is picking up an item from the chest. This is why Nilaus was able to saturate a belt with 2 "ultimate" sorters (4 "hands"), but he needed 5 "hands" to do so without the upgrade.
(As with Factorio, you can work around this problem with fewer sorters by inserting onto multiple belts and merging them together, since splitters and belt junctions don't have "swing time.")
Umm a mk3 sorter cannot fully saturate a mk3 belt because it cannot stack..
His tests were wrong... He was feeding 120/sec into those mk3 sorters and then said he was saturating the output but he wasnt since a mk3 sorter cannot stack on belts.
thanks this comment I can skip a 30mins video
In this episode, Nilaus tests:
The equivalent of 'hacked' blue sorters you can't get any more against pile sorters, gets confused why the pile sorters are so bad in comparison to the 'hacked' ones.
Ground based weapons in space, can't figure out why they don't work.
Blueprints on invalid terrain, claims blueprints are broken. (EDIT: Some others are claiming that it's not invalid terrain.)
AoE short-range abilities against long-range groups.
AoE energy weapons against single targets.
BTW, stick a stack of antimatter charges into your mech when you next go clear a planet. One shot will clear out entire hordes of enemies in a single shot on some of the more normal difficulties, and I suspect that the 1800+ damage on those things probably scales up to even the max difficulty. Their description implies they're intended to just utterly obliterate anything they hit, and they have AoE splash.
Yeah this episode is a bit of let down
I agree. This time he was a bit hasty and inattentive when creating this video 😔
Antimatter rounds are indeed devastating on planet yet not very effective in space combat
No, invalid terrain was not what was going on. I had the same problem. I put in foundation several times to no avail. And I ultimately placed the splitters by hand, which he should have demonstrated, since I'm sure he did that, too.
@@jgischer Dude, the vid clearly shows the game saying "Foundation Required"
Nilaus testing ground based features in space will never not be funny
The changelog does mention the radius being much larger in space. Those are just useless with the current specs :(
@@Tiky.8192 yes, it doesn't matter that they have large radius if they don't have at least a bit of homing, you will never hit anything in space.
I've found that a jammer significantly enhances the effectiveness of laser & gauss turrets by ensuring they can't be overwhelmed by waves of units. However, the missile + signal tower combo kinda makes that irrelevant for anything other than protecting your missile base, since you can just spam signal towers and wipe out the dark fog remotely. They either need to move jammers to earlier in the tech tree or make them effective against space units; I'd like to see the shield burst given a larger AOE and having a jamming effect but consuming jammers with each use.
I think there's an issue with comparing these on a save that kept the upgrades to inserter mk3. In new saves, mk3 inserters don't get stack bonuses but current saves keep them from old upgrades:
"No longer display upgrades for [Sorter Mk.III] and it can no longer be upgraded for "cargo stacking" (saved upgrades will retain their values)."
Yeah. Nilaus got unnecessarily confused there.
Yes, he’s watching old inserters with full old updates (active but not available anymore) and new inserters without full upgrades
A thing about white sorters not transporting as much as the blue ones: because you are playing an old save, blue sorters will still be able to transport multiple items at once, so your build will not suddenly stop working. When you start a new game after this update, you can no longer upgrade the capacity of the blue sorters, so in a new game pile sorters will be the direct upgrade to the blue sorters regardless of the upgrades.
Also I think the devs meant to say "instantaneously" instead of "simutaneously" in that last upgrade, after the last upgrade you will be able to load/unload at 4 stacks * 120 times/second (a full belt of 4 stacks) reguardless of the distance, meaning even if you are transporting to/from a belt three tiles away it will still saturate it.
The reason it's load and unload is because of this.
The sorter picks up an item, and carries it over, then the arm needs to go back to the input belt, pick up a new item, and carry it over. That's how they work by default.
With this upgrade, the sorter picks up the items, then carries it over, and while it's doing that a SECOND arm is grabbing more materials and moving it, then because it's also very fast, the first arm is going back and picking up more items and by the time its done that the second arm is going back to get more.
So it's loading the sorter and unloading the sorter at the same time, rather than loading, transporting, unloading, go back, load more, transport, unload.
It's as if there's just a PORTAL on the belt that feeds it instantly into the output instead of moving the materials, it's that fast. It's INSANE and I'm sure many people will have lots of fun building stupidly big factories with them.
@@haku8135It basically turns the sorter into a mini-conveyor belt.
20:48 My man it says "FOUNDATION REQUIRED!" There is nothing wrong with the Blueprint!!!
Yeah... A lot of negativity and lack of reading in this video.
I love how the pile sorter quickly changed from "why would I ever user this" to why would I use anything else"
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but wasn't the blueprint faiking because it needed foundation where you were placing it? It kept saying "Foundation Required" when you were trying to place the BP at the equator 21:26
Yeah ironically Nilaus is very unobservant in this video. Like when he just couldn't see where the automatic piler was.
@@haku8135 to be fair it took me a while in my game to figure out where they moved the piler to. My 1st thought was that the devs had forgotten about it.
3:00 Weirdness comes from old upgrades. Here is patch note:
"No longer display upgrades for [Sorter Mk.III] and it can no longer be upgraded for "cargo stacking" (saved upgrades will retain their values)."
Prefers Rocket towers which are backline siege units with weak defenses.
Calls a frontline jamming unit with slow debuff keeping the enemy from getting into range hitting his favorite glass cannons giving them more time to fire without being fired upon 'Useless'.
My guy I love your videos. You are a great inspiration for logistics lessons and I'm still in awe of your ability to math and plan out ridiculously effective factories.
But a defense commander you are not. Being able to delay the enemy with a sufficient jammer line means you can reduce the density of your rocket turrets since you won't have to worry about making up for the delay between shots with volume.
A reduced rocket density with jammer turret line will be able to hit the enemy twice as much and may save on ammunition costs then going full 'MURICA! FUCK YEA!' in terms of sheer volume of rocket turrets.
It's basically trying to shoot someone charging you over flat ground and charging you through mud.
Yeah, Nilaus just went full derp in this video.
First off, he's on an old save, so his MKIII sorters are basically hacked and are not working how they will going forward. That's excusable.
But literally all you need to do is READ the jammer tower entry, and it says outright it's for GROUND AND AIR, it SLOWS the enemy, it deals NO DAMAGE, and these are NOT SPACE LAND MINES. The jammers probably work in space if you throw them manually, but they don't EXPLODE, I have no idea why he thinks he should be seeing explosions from JAMMING capsules.
Then there's the shield burst, which is a defensive measure if you get swarmed, not a kamikaze attack.
However, I just checked it myself. Because I have this uncanny ability to read things on the screen, I now know the shield burst is NOT capped at 330 hp. That might be a bug. I just made a burst on world of 6600 damage. So anything swarming you will get annihilated. You don't need to max out the charge either, you can do smaller bursts of damage, but roughly the minimum damage threshold I can reach (My energy shield is 1.5 GJ with a 6 meter radius, so not that highly upgraded for end game) is around 1500 damage. You need a minimum charge up before the burst will happen, so you can't just tap B and hit things.
Nilaus was MILES away from ANY enemies, did the shield burst and just went "Well that does nothing and I'll just get killed anyway."
Yeah he is very much NOT keen on combat strategy beyond "more missiles!"
Plus he had the jammers set at minimum. Of course he was going to use a lot of ammo.
What’s nice with the new stack sorters is to use them for pilling on the same belt. Just put the sorter to sort „backwards“ on the same belt. So it takes whatever comes in and stacks it on top of itself until it can’t anymore and lets it through
That's such a cheater feature or too op
@@Davidlavieriit is completely intentional
Wait you ain't meaning what I was thinking. So it became a piler that doesn't take up extra space and an be add on any part of the belt regardless space and vertical height....
13:00 It means that it can pick up a load move it unload it, and pick up another load while unloading the first load. If you zoom in on a slower sorter, you can see the grappler move back and forth. With this upgrade, it turns it into more like a mini-conveyor belt.
25:00 It’s probably meant to be used in conjunction with Signal towers to slow the incoming damage allowing Analyzers to keep up with repairs. Probably works great for farming high level Fog.
Something I noticed is that the jammer has a phase shift. You can set up multiple lines with their phases slightly offset. This has the effect of slowing more of the incoming waves and bunching them up for missile turrets.
The Jammer feels super useful for early game death worlds, slowing down the dark fog can give you those extra seconds for your turrets.
And as already mentioned, your blueprint needed some foundations to be placed down, nothing broke, it was just a simple case of overthinking on your part.
Missile turrets are actually extremely expensive with scarce resources. I ended up using plasma turrets for space defense, all they need is a ton of deuterium which I just plopped a bunch of orbital collectors for.
Jammer -> Slow down units, causing them to bunch up. Follow that up with an AoE weapon, and you hit more enemies for the same cost. And it looked very much like enemies were not firing at the jammers.
i can tell you they go for the jammers quite aggressively in my save at least, if they were ignored and could just act as aoe debuffs that'd be very nice because you could place them far forward with their short range, maybe it's something to do with introducing the patch in the middle of a game, maybe a new save is less buggy.
Jammer Caspules and Shield Energy Burst are supposed to be used 'On Planet' mainly, i believe. So testing in Space is a little futile.
Deeper thoughts (speculation): Jammer capsules probably trigger on contact with an enemy entity. Enemy Spacecrafts don't have a collision box; good luck hitting them.
The energy shield burst is tied to your shield range i believe which is somewhere below 70m at max upgrade? (idk, not sure) Regardless, enemy spacecraft stick around you in 1500m distance? (also not sure) hitting them with the burst, therefore, is akin to a flight with no return.
Had hoped that jammer towers would allow one to stealth power planets and infrastructure from dark fog aggro.
Jammers deal ZERO DAMAGE. Their function is JAMMING, they make the enemy FIFTY PERCENT slower. Which on a planet is INSANE. These could help you just wipe the floor with the dark fog forces. In massive swarms in space, yeah you'd likely never notice their effects.
The shield burst can deal THOUSANDS of damage in a radius around you, mine is only a 6 meter radius, and I can max out at 6600 damage already.
Yeah, these aren't really heavily SPACE combat things. Though, we definitely need more space combat options, fighting in space at the moment is basically just, not advised.
@Nilaus
your blueprint said "foundation required" in the error message
jammer towers can slow by 80%+ when upgraded (still pretty useless when you can just use implosion cannons though)
shield burst probably scales with your shield and you did not upgrade it yet really
I had the identical issue. "foundation required" is false. I was able to place my splitters in the exact location by hand. So I guess foundation wasn't an issue after all. I tried smoothing the foundation several times before doing that.
Yes but Implosion cannons have minimum range. Which means that once the units are inside the range, the gun is effectively useless.
Now imagine you have some jamming towers JUST inside the midline to minimum range to slow/halt the advance of the Dark Fog into optimal range of the cannon. Suddenly you're able to catch those fast movers that the cannon usually can't hit in a web of slow making it much easier for the cannon to hit. Catching giant blobs of Dark Fog into a presighted artillery position.
Do they sound useless NOW?
New sorters, together with the most advanced production buildings based on alien technologies, allow for very compact production with incredible productivity. For example, the production of silicon or titanium requires only one conveyor belt for delivery, while eleven others will issue raw materials. And it takes up very little space! And if you paint all this, then on your home world you can probably recycle the entire star cluster
Comment section gonna be rough on this one...
Love your vids, quality is on point new pc looking good !
But my man, the "old piler fell off the list and they forgot it", "blueprint broken" because foundation, jammer tower has an upgrade ammo making it actually usefull...
Just for reference, shield burst with lvl 25 shield has 250m radius (10* multiplicator in space), fully charged explosion one taps the 1k dark fog fleets
FOUNDATION REQUIRED
The piler sorter is WAYYYYY better than the mk3 belt QND it reduces the footprint of normal piler build.
Honestly, one of the best addition to the game.
All that's missing is some logic to the ILS like "transfer until X items reached", because I ALWAYS bring *wayyy* more solar sails than necessary to complete my spheres and it's tiring to always clean everything lmao
I found a great use for the new sorters. They feed machines WAY faster than normal sorters, great for matrix labs reaching out 3 across.
Because you used your ongoing game sorters MIII preserved their upgrades, but in the release notes those sorter got nerfed although games that had upgrades for them don't lose those upgrades. Then a real comparison should be conducted on a new game.
Yeah. In a new game mk3 only get a speed upgrade over mk2. Then the new mk4 gets the stack size upgrades with research
Your blueprints still works for me, including the one of the vídeo
What the final update for Pile Sorter really does is remove the distance penalty, so the sorter will pull or push a full belt whether it's next to the building or there's two belts inbetween. It basically means every building has effectively a belt port with logistic station stack output function (except for needing power to operate).
Nilaus did you notice that you can all take the stack sorter and place it directly on a belt in reverse? (as in not outputting from or inputting to a building) It will stack the belt to 4 high just like the piler does, but no hit box.
Whats more is that you can put a pile sorter backwards on the same belt. Transporting the item backwards on the belt. And it will do the same as the sorter. So yeah the piler is basically completely useless now as the pile sorter does the same thing but is more versatile.
With the pile sorter, I think it is talking about on a belt, it can pick up pieces and stack them at the same time it is dropping them on the other side, maximizing throughput.
With the last/final upgrade, pile sorter speeds are no longer tied to distance. So no matter if you move 1, 2 or 3 tiles, it'll always be at full speed. So it will fill a blue (30/s) belt to 7200 items/min (because it's stacked 4 high), at any distance. It will also clear a belt (loading into a chest or whatever) at any distance, at any stack height. The key obviously being "any distance", which I hink is what they mean with "load and unload simultaneously", which is a rather weird description of it.
27:16 - more than a blind man at an archery contest
Absolutly, these are awesome additions
New PC seems great!
Plasma towers in my testing has been useful for leveling up bases faster (and really good at keeping the fog from damaging anything. )
The pile sorter is fantastic.
The loading bit refers to how much it can pick up at once. The T3 sorters can now only pick up a single item at a time.
Try using the purple explosive that you make tier 3 shells with as bombs...... op as heck.
You missed one use for the pile sorter... You can force a belt to be fully stacked.
Run a belt from left to right. Add a pile sorter on the belt from right to left (opposite direction of belt) by one space. Basically the pile sorter will feed back onto itself and stack items to 4x... When they cannot be stacked anymore, it passes though at a 4x stack. So you can basically use it as a piler but instead of only stacking if there is a unit next to it, it will for a 4x stack and uses the same power and is more slim. Basically the piler is obsolete now.
Doesn't the piler stack to 8x? The pile sorted only goes to 4x
Pilers are a must for my deuterium machine.
Could be interesting/entertaining to have a planet-wide self building blueprint using the BAB.
Quite doable, just requires enough power to propagate properly as everything is built.
"let me know if you've noticed all blueprints have been fucked" had me dying😂
Nothing but ground combat updates which I figured to be absolutely usless. I knew for sure nilaus would try this in space!! So I came here. I was to lazy to even try. Hahaha. Using galactic scale and a system has 7 Hives, we need orbital megastructure hangers to send fleets out.
The only 2 megastructure we have is the Dyson swarm and Dyson sphere.
Need to do testing to confirm, but I think the pile sorters would top off a partial stack that passes under them. Sounds great for more compact fractionator loops, using belt-to-belt pile sorters to fill each loop belt from a passing supply belt..
Thank you for a good video!
The pile sorter can be used going the opposite direction of a belt to stack without taking up the same wide space as the old piler..
This means you can have belts next to each other with stacks of items .. but you never tried it that way..
By the way, there is a volume control for the dark fog alarm sound in the options now (was added a couple of patches ago).
There is one more update that allows you to expand your storage on Icarus
Re: Mk3 sorter vs Pile - I'm sure I read that they removed the ability of the Mk3 to stack, but it applies to new games only.
with yellow energy bars that sheild boost gonna be the bomb , probably could ram in and kill the core
Great content man! +1
I got the game few days ago and i loved it!
Is it possible for me to get your mecha design?? Its really cool.
The plasma turrets are probably nicer for farms, since basic plasma ammo is pretty cheap and has higher splash damage and AOE size than missiles. Early to mid game, at least. The antimatter capsules do like 1300 damage base, and I don't think any current ground enemies even have that much health?
Shield burst especially, I suspect is meant more for early game as a panic button if you are getting overwhelmed.
The piler inserters need their full upgrades to shine, but at full speed they basically make every other sorter *and* the piler obsolete.
i hope we can get either super weapons. or maybe a weapon ring for the dyson sphere. to keep those pesky fog from settling in. maybe add more utility to the launchers. so its not just solar sails and dyson sphere structure.
I was honestly curious of the new sorters as the description made it very challenging for me to understand, but after seeing them in action, they look fantastic. The only thing I'm not sure about, will it stack output from a factory as well to 4 before dropping it on a belt, or still go to a single one, thus requiring pilers for larger builds which collect to a single belt?
Will you give out specs of your new system and the rough FPS change you noticed from it or is that something more likely to be told on Twitch?
If you put 60 mk2 smelters making iron all outputting to the same belt with pile sorters you can get 7200/minute without any splitters, stackers or other tricks. Even if the belt is 'full' the stacker will place the output on top, up to 4 high. So the smelters at the end don't get jammed up with output, they can always output until the belt reaches the full 4x30/s capacity.
Test it yourself in sandbox, logistics stations can output infinite amounts of an item by 'locking' it, so you can spit out 7200 iron ore/sec on a mk3 belt without having to setup all the mining to get it.
Or a loop from a logistics station set to stacksize 1 outputting a steady stream of 1-stacked iron and have a single smelter output to the belt. Previously it would be stalled, because the belt is already full. Pile sorter places the output on top of the cargo on the belt already, making a 2-stack.
seems to me the shield burst and jammer capsules are more for when you aggro too much and have to run away back to some defense point or to protect your signal towers during expansion. The jammer towers seem only practical for farming (at least as they currently are) or maybe early game on higher difficulties with larger and more frequent waves. everyone has already pointed out the sorter test problem of using old mk3 sorters against the new sorters. the blueprint issue of having a foundation required message has already been pointed out as well.
I'm also thinking that some of this, mainly the jammer stuff, is just preamble for some of the space combat and station future plans. I could see having an ability to slow movement of the enemies in space, where you may not be hanging around, could be handy to give time to arrive and defend. Especially if getting building space will be limited. They would need to increase the range big time though, unless they plan on giving the fog landing parties or something.
Its everything properly working in an "old save game" ? Might wanna do some more tests in a new game.
send the emps toward the hive in space. Long-ranged stealth bombs
Pilers work better "moving" stuff from one belt to another, as opposed to using a container. You can merge 2 belts with almost no stutter.
18:00 - those are ground weapons LOL
I had the same issue with the blueprint before the update. It was the splitters breaking for me as well. I tried it on a different planet and then it worked fine.
I decided to not completely convert everything to Mk4 sorter. I only use them where I used to use pilers, meaning on smelter arrays and maybe where I want a stacked input belt prior to ILS stacking research (for example H2 in casmir). Since the uses are so limited, might as well use MK3 for 90% of the blueprints where even it is overkill. and yes, the Jammer is useless even at lower tech or difficulty (I could tell as soon as I read patch notes but testing confirms). I never used implosion cannons so I see no use for SR turrets either.
The space swarm reminds me of the movie Ender's Game.
this plasma tourrets are toooo good omggggg
How do the new sorters handle unloading onto a full unstacked belt? I've heard some good descriptions of how they simultaneously unload and load, but this was my first thought about the description.
Oh that Blueprint snafu is a worry.
Buttery smooth. Highly effective.
Jammer tower good if your farming the Darkfog
I can imagine that you can use the jamming tower together with normal turrets in eary game
Hey, i saw there was a total dmg number in the bottom left when u used the shield burst
So at 15:35 in the video when your testing space jammer it says "Hold To Charge" above the targeting reticle. It seemed you were tapping to launch quickly. At 23:03 it's the same I'm guessing jammer can be charged. I'm at work so can't load a game to test myself.
It always bugged me that the T3 sorters couldn't output items stacked onto the belt. That always undermined the end game where you could have belts stacked 4 high out of the logistics station but the outputs from the build became throughput limited unless you put a bunch of pilers on the belt (which always looked weird).
Can’t we upgrade the slowing tower? IIRC the max upgrade makes the enemy completely stop?
On the new set up, bloom looks to be rendering a lot around reds. I can't tell if the copper you're using (even though I see the filter is red science; it looks like copper plates) at 4:14 is stacked or not lol.
Shield burst uses... Watch other videos where they kamakaze a planetary base to level it as soon as they land
I wonder if any possibility it acts differently on a game started before the patch or not
Jamming tower: I think the main problem imo, is the slow doesn't seem to last very long. If it was 5-10 seconds I could see it being up front. They looked like they were ignoring them. So you could put them up front, then the signal towers to lure them back to the damage towers.
But right now, it needing ammo, small range, and the slow is only like half a second if that? Terrible.
I don't like the changes to the sorters, though at max, the piler is rather nice. The new towers feel 'meh'.
Pretty bad miss man, you completely lost the point and power of the new sorter.
You're comparing 3 mk3s making a full 1 stack belt, to the mk2 making a double stack at the start, and a FULL belt of 4 stack later...
You are in your let's play world and probably have existing mk3 sorter capacity which is why your mk3 sorters are faster than basic pile sorters. Note that mk3 capacity is no longer an available research.
Blueprints work for me
This is nilaus' worst video. He's frustratingly negative because of his lack of knowledge. Imo he's embarassing himself every step of the way here
Bit of a harsh conclusion there. But he's definitely making some assumptions and missing some key info.
It does clash with his usual style of already knowing everything, but it's also nice to see his testing. No one will get everything right at the first go.
The negativity is a bit of a downside, but still a decent episode.
'Jammer' is Dutch for 'pity', so the name seems to be chosen well 😉
what’s the new PC spec? can you add it to the Details please?
If you look at the grafic the is only one direction on the sorter not front and back
The blueprint bug with the equator landfall blueprint: I had that too but last time it worked for me again. So no idea if it's broken or not.
20:48 I mean, it's early access. Something will inevietably gets broken 🤷♂
Pile sorters looks really neat, no longer having to do "3D binary tree stackers spaghetti" thing for item outputs. Also, not always stacking to highest is definitely intentional, since the excess will get buffered in source inventory to be stacked together at later time. AKA a self-balancing pipe.
Now wishing for multi-item type sorter/splitter 😁
It literally says "Foundation Required" there's nothing broken about the blueprint. All he had to do was Flatten the Terrain.
@@jebkerman5422"All you had to do was flatten that damn terrain"
- Big Smoke in space
that load/unload gonna be cool for X-ray fracking!
Anyone else get a Tesla Tower vibe from Red Alert 2 with the plasma turrets? lol
honestly seems as good as usual
The jammers and shield burst are for ground combat, not space...
Surprised you find missile turrets better than Plasma cannons for space defense, I feel the plasma ammo is far cheaper and simpler to build that 3 tiers of rockets, and the range of the cannons means no invading space fleets get close enough to fire, thus obsoleting the need for a shield. I've just gotten to white science on a death world 0.5 resource playthrough myself, and plasma cannons have saved the day, Missiles are far too expensive!
You need the automatic piler for the storage tank.
Nice)
Hi. Im sorry to say this, but this is one of your bad videos.... normally i like your videos, but this was not good. you have no idea about the new items and you just tried to figure out it (ok, at least parts of it), and explained it... there is more, for example the "bomb" item, you can use ather items too (coal, water, ..) and different items have different effects. you can see in the tooltip if its throwable or not and what effect it will have. the sorter is also useful if you are in midgame with only "1 stack output" out of the inter... if you wanted to make a full belt of it, you had to build some wierd construction 4 belts, everyone have a stacker, then you have 2 belts, going in a stacker again and now you have 1 full belt. (hope you get what i mean, sorry, bad english)... now you can also use the new sorter "on the same belt"... what i mean, you have one belt, you put a gigasorter on it, it will "collect" mutliple items and then drop off 1 Stack. So basically it does the job from the stacker. (just build sorters instead of stackers --> also uses less space). and the Shield burst is i think useless in space but funny at the ground if you charge directly into a core of a planetary base and BOOM.... i hope you playing a bit with it and when you 100000% understand the new thinks you make a new explaining video ;-) ... sorry, its not personal, i just expected a bit more ;-) greetings
Fairly negative tone in this vid, kinda surprised. I like the overall changes
🎉🎉🎉
I had the same problem with splitters. And I do mean the same problem. It's my blueprint, but very similar, and the splittes wouldn't place. There was no issue with foundations, I covered it several times. Fortunately, the workaround is simple.
I have to agree with a lot of people here, it feels like you didn't really test anything correctly.
Using a single tower to see how much it slows down enemies, not showing the better ammo version of it or even the costs...
Kind of disappointed
Ps. The Dutch Actuary actually has a good video on how everything works including the shield burst
jammers are as useful as slowdown capsules in factorio.
The Tower is Full speed. everything else is slower.