Hence Judo went to golden score and eliminated the judges, the first to score during extended time wins. As much as people think Judo is outdated, it is ahead of BJJ in many aspects.
But still washed out unfortunately. I love Judo and I wish it stayed a complete martial art as it used to be. Now everyone is thinking scoring points… there wouldn’t be room for BJJ if Newaza was still here
Submission Only No Time Limit = Cardio Competition EBI = Professional Situational Training Submission Only with Judges = Invisible Points Tournament IBJJF = Visible Points Tournament ADCC = Stall until points tournament. Original Polaris was my favorite super fight format. Two people compete for a cash bonus for a submission if neither person wins, it’s a draw. So I guess basically I think we should only have two formats. “Points” or “submission only time limit without judges” resulting in a draw if neither competitor gets a submission.
My least favourite rule set is EBI. Nothing more annoying then watching two competitors attempt to not do jiu jitsu just to get to OT and be put in a dominant position you never attempted to get to in regulation. You can almost see certain gyms not training for regulation matches but rather just training for OT.
I don't think EBI rules are any kind of problem if referees can penalise stalling heavily and if you don't get paid for non-sub wins. For actual EBI shows, I think it works pretty well because the money and prestige is all in the subs. Nobody who stalled out a tournament win in EBI is getting invited back.
@@XKenny77 respectfully I disagree. It depends on your name. Look at the last UFC invitational. The only person attempting subs in regulation was big Dan, every other competitor went the distance to end in OT. Craig Jones said himself his strategy against Pena was to take him to OT as he knew he has way more experience in the ruleset. I don't think Craig Jones or Nicky Rod have to worry about not being invited back or not being paid big money four matches. Sure for the no-name guys it would be in their best interests to get a sub in regulation and make the match exciting but for the well-known guys they'll just game the match and play the rule set to their advantage because they know that they'll get called back no matter what because their name sells tickets.
@@wonderbread1966 Maybe so. The refereeing generally wasn't brilliant at FPI though. I wouldn't go to full Quintet pace, but refs could afford to be a LOT more punitive about stalling. EBI rules allow for a minute OT penalty for stalling in regulation time. That should be used much, much more liberally. If it was, I think EBI rules would be a lot less problematic for most people. Every ruleset provides opportunities to stall out for a win. The only way to fix that is to penalise stalling heavily.
I couldn't agree more. The "invisible" points of F2W have bothered me forever, the EBI just stall until overtime has done the same, and as much as people rag on IBJJF, the points force people to move. That being said Quintet is my absolute favorite rule set as a spectator.
I enjoy the AJP ruleset. No pulling down the pants, last man to score wins in case of a draw or if zero zero golden score, 10 seconds for the stall penalty 🥦👍
Interesting take - for open tournaments I totally agree. For invite superfights like WNO, I think there’s one more important factor athletes have to consider: will they be rebooked (or paid well) for another fight, if they play a stally game. In general for those I don’t mind a somewhat arbitrary refs decision. It’s a tough spot, as you said any ruleset is going to get exploited. Hopefully the recent UFC event was the last EBI rules we see for a while though, that was brutal.
Yeah, and to be clear, as much as I dislike the ruleset itself....WNO puts on the most enjoyable events to watch, at least for me(and I assume for the average fan). I think part of that credit is to the match maker, they always pick really good match ups that I'm sure would be exciting matchups in any ruleset. But it also could just be exactly what your saying, where if they don't put on exciting matches...they don't get a match.
BJJ matches seem best when there is a disparity in skillset. The DDS looked exciting because they used tactics other folks were not familiar with. Ryan looks good because he is just way better. When the levels are more even than getting a sub is just extremely hard and the rulesets are not going to change that. Folks will always try to find loopholes to abuse the rules and win by stalling or some other way that the inventors of the rules did not want. Judo is a great example. The rules had to be changed a ton of times because athletes kept finding new ways to stall or game the system.
Wrestling has solved this problem a different way. The referee can call "stalling" on an opponent who isn't actively trying to advance their position. I don't know if this would be a good thing for BJJ or not, but it would be good to see a rule-set that gave it a try. As a former wrestler (and current wrestling coach), who also trains BJJ, it is one of the big differences between the two sports "culturally" and it originates in this specific rule. Wrestlers are constantly grinding, whereas in BJJ you will often see a more relaxed mentality. The way it works in American folkstyle is as follows (the international styles are similar, but not identical): Stalling is defined as failing to attempt to improve, and can occur in any position. The referee has the discretion to call either competitor for stalling at any time. Typically they will give a verbal warning first, although this is not necessary. The first stalling call is no points. The second call is a point. The third call is a point. The fourth call is two points. The fifth call is disqualification. In 40 years of wrestling I have never personally witnessed a fourth stalling call in a match, but I am sure it has happened. Clearly this gives the ref some power, and I have seen it affect the outcome of a match, but I have rarely seen it affect the outcome of a match where both competitors where genuinely seeking to advance their position throughout the entire bout. In short, it forces wrestlers to press for the advantage every second.
That exact rule exists in IBJJF. You can call one or both fighters for passivity and give negative points. The rules are fine, its the application of the rules that causes issues.
I just did my first BJJ tournament I paid 120 bucks to compete The crowd people are paying $10 to come in do you know who's paying for these tournaments?? The Competitors!! So If people want to start paying for these tournaments because they're entertained by them or they want to watch them then that's fine until then I'm paying for the damn tournament I should get to choose what the hell I want and I want sub only!!!!
Aside from "winning" and "losing", modern jiu jitsu has bastardized ancient war practice... I think back to the Sack of Rome in 410 AD, where the Duke of Bourbon could NOT be bothered with "guard passing" or "submission" catches.... There was no "grip fighting" he focused his efforts on starving the roman economy ultimately leading to underpaid underfed soldiers who would then mutiny against their own emperor. I think modern jiu jitsu athletes should take a deeper look beyond having a highly competitive sport, which they love and are passionate about and start implementing the ACTUAL TOOLS OF WAR. People are soft now I guess...
I agree. It is SO MUCH more fun watching seasoned competitors strategically put their hooks in and then take them out over and over, eventually winning by points. I remember the Iraq War, during battles the refs would be going around assigning points to whomever for cool things they did, a lot of people don't know this but Iraq actually ended up winning that war on points. And a lot of people complain about how statistically it has been proven that the IBJJF heavily favors Brazilian competitors through biased reffing, including the many refs who refuse to talk to you if you don't speak Portuguese. People don't understand this is JUSTIFIED because they invented jiu jitsu to begin with and honestly, manipulating refereeing is the real jiu jitsu because you win without even really fighting. The ultimate goal of jiu jitsu. Anyway, I have to go now because I am unfortunately very ill after eating Brazilian sushi.
TRUE dude! I’ve been saying this for years…They only way to fix things, is to make jiu jitsu more like the Iraq war….no more taps, those weren’t allowed in the war so why should we allow them in our sport? Why pass the guard when you can just throw a grenade in there? Right!?
I'm just a dumbass white belt, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Make stalling a disadvantage and reset to standing; in the event of a tie, go to a coin toss. This incentivizes both competitors moving and advancing to avoid stalling, and incentivizes attacking to avoid the coin toss.
You argue that you don't want the judges to decide the match and than favor the IBJJF which has the lowest threshold for having (only 1) judge decide the match and notifying the competitors immediately so that they can start stalling ASAP.
No, you misunderstood. I argued that I don't want a judges decision based off an arbitrary thing like "aggression". Positions you get points for in an ibjjf match are objective. You don't need 3 judges to decide that. You have a head ref to overturn calls if there is a mistake.
If you could win by pins I think it would be more exciting. Either that or team events where matches ends on ties so you can avoid overtime like they did in quintet
EBI was innovative for 2014. They were trying to solve the problem of Wrestlers / MMA fighters stalling into OT then winning with a Takedown. It worked, but created as many problems as it solved. That's how it's going to be for most new rule sets.
I’ve been feeling this way for awhile. Watching the submission only stuff take off. Its a bummer to take my kid students to a tournament to watch them positionally demolish someone and then lose to some kid who eeks out a win with a couple seconds ride time in an EBI overtime. I don’t mind for higher level adult matches but not for beginners and kids.
I believe if the stalling penalties get called correctly, adcc has the best ruleset to compete in. WNO has been the most entertaining to watch for fight cards for sure.
Most spectator friendly event with a lot of excitement is by far Quintet. You could also do this on Pro-Events like the old Pride days and give people a yellow card warning to reduce their purse. Will make them keep active. For myself as a fighter, I love EBI the most . Everyone has a clear winner at the end and you don't loose because of a butched position and then stalling
I think EBI with the Molly whop rule is the best rule set. This means if someone is stalling the whole match or getting run over, that guy loses, no overtime. Overtime only happens when both competitors are trying to submit the other person.
Been saying this for years, the rule set really doesn't matter THAT much. I honestly don't get the hype of sub only, all of the most exciting matches I've seen are points matches, some of them even ended in a point victory. It's almost cathartic to know I'm not alone in this lmao.
I like AJP ruleset the best. no advangtages, limited 50/50 stalling, and no asscracks on full display. also turtle results as a sweep or take down if the athlete turtling began on the feet. IBJJF and adcc act like their rules are about positions of striking potential....and a semi related thought: half guard and turtle are both positions of striking potential and are rarely rewarded as such; If points exist, we really need to do away with the striking potential thing, because there are no strikes in jiu jitsu and youre just LARPING as an mma fighter.
I completely agree with you. All rule sets have their flaws, but I think points are positive: they’re an approximation to MMA which says “I could rain punches from this back mount” etc. Double guard pull footsie-fests make me embarrassed to do bjj.
ADCC should try shortening everything. Maybe first 2 minutes no points, then a 5 minute points period. As it stands, it's like, first minute decides whether the top player can be leg-locked. Then there is like 2.5 minutes of general 'feel-out'. Then 1.5 minutes of getting ready for points to kick in, then the match actually starts.
Hands down, the best ruleset in all of grappling is sambo, even better then Judo. The 4 major issues with bjj for spectator entertainment, guard passing takes to long, pulling guard if your trying to attract fans, don’t do it, absolutely the best way to turn a spectator off the sport, and lastly takedown. Take down point should be given by the technical difficulties of the takedown. Sweeps and throws are harder to learn then a shoot, spectators love sweep and throws because they are are big movements. leg locks, nobody wants to see two guys playing footy with each other on the ground for 5 min. What folks want to see, quite honestly is a guy go unconscious because it is finite. Joints are not finite. They don’t want to hear a pop and a match not called because they didn’t tap, because it is basically lying to your audience that this technique works, which obviously does not. And those things all hinder the entertainment value of the sport. BJJ is hard to watch, and is why USA wrestling is gaining so much traction. The pin is finite and everyone understands it.
I’d argue F2W is still learning and has room for improvement, the org is trying to put up a show and pay its participants. I refuse to contribute to the IBJJF, paying outrageous tournament prices, having biased refs and not paying its athletes is a huge red flag. EBI has a good concept, but people get absolutely destroyed in regular time, are able to survive to overtime and manage to win because of fastest escape time or a lucky sub.
Maybe add some kind of positional win condition. Like if you can maintain control for five seconds, three separate times, then you win. Or something like that. Yeah submissions are great, but if someone can pin you three separate times before you can submit them once, I feel like it's safe to say that they've beaten you. I think it would encourage more takedowns and interesting scrambles.
Watching from home, the worst is the one with the most editing. For example, not much is really happening but they zoom in at an extreme angle to make it look like there's something happening. Really the camera is doing more work than the athletes. Nvm the ruleset, the production. Save the editing for Hollywood
I think, we cannot onut the fact that bjj player know exactly how to stall without being. They fakin being busy large part it the match. It happens regardless the ruleset being used. We can’t go public and reach out non practitioner as consumers to gain way more audience.
I would like to see a tourney with a ruleset slightly modified from ibbjf. 1. no points for sweeps. Is there really an advantage to being the passer? So many people prefer to play guard. If that's the case, why would you want to sweep someone and turn yourself from the guard player into the passer? 2. I don't like how side control or knee on belly is given up so easily to allow an opponent to regain his guard, just so you can pass it again for 3 more pts. I would say not to regrant those passing points unless you had achieved a mount or back mount prior to that. No more racking up points by allowing someone to capture your foot in 1/2 guard, then you just knee slide for 3 more points...repeat.. 3. no refs decisions... sudden death where next points win.
The best possible ruleset: quintet + point limit. So you win by submission or reaching a certain amount of points. That way they force people to do some bjj and not lay down and just defend.
Random idea to promote aggression for the pro events. A public voting system to keep them in or stay. Stallers wud be voted off while more entertaining athletes will get to stay. Even on victories/defeats.
I don’t think there’s an issue with some ruleset variability especially in pro events. The issue is how the athletes decide to compete. I think if they did rounds like wrestling and encouraged aggressive stalling calls we could have some exciting matches, but then we may lose a lot of guard play. It’s a tough one. The art suffers in many of the rulesets regardless.
I think using the wrestings rule set, specifically when one athlete is on all fours an the others on their back side is better, rather than EBI OT rules statrting them in a sub an just have ref not be so partial to 3 min stalls
Yeah, I agree with you brother, right now the best rule set in my opinion is the one championship, most of the nogi matches a pretty excited. Never gonna have a perfect rule set, the only way that you can make the athletes go for it is putting money on the game, like one championship does
This is where you see the baby mindset of BJJ coming out in competitions. The best BJJ athlete in the world Gordon Ryan, has a solid consistent strategy of "I'll wear you down until you can't defend my attacks because my stamina is greater so it takes as long as it takes". People are treating "No-Gi Submission only" as the 2nd closest reality to open no rules combat and then thinking that following Gordon's mindset is what will lead to victories but the mentality of being patient in fighting is ridiculous and ever accepting bottom position has been something the UFC has harboured by not allowing kicks/knees to a downed opponent. Compare this to the mindset of Judo where you're aggressively punished for stalling and taking your time and you loose the match if your opponent can get your back on the mat because that's where you'd get your head stomped. You are actively encouraged to find the fastest and most explosive way to slam your opponent onto the ground. This concept is mocked by BJJ players that don't understand why a referee would stand people up all the time is because you are looking to perfect 1 singular attack that would end the combative engagement. You can't really deny something that has been practiced and mastered over 1000 years of war. This is coming from someone who has a brown belt in Both Judo and BJJ individually that can't for the life of me find BJJ partners that want to start engagements from standing. If you want BJJ to be a spectator sport and not a martial art then by all means keep tweaking the rules for "entertainment" value like we saw with the most recent EBI rules event on Fight pass that forced 2 people to stop and be engaged in advantageous positions because BJJ players are refusing to engage because there is no punishment for not doing so. IBJJF does have the best ruleset because it focuses on positional control over submissions generally. However if they want to push for it to be more of a Martial Art they need to promote takedowns and punish passivity/stalling or going out of bounds aggressively with either a Cage like we see in ONE championship or disqualifications for going out of bounds or stalling in a position.
I've proposed this idea in a few other places but I'm always looking for new feedback: What about no time limit with points? The first to get a set amount of points wins the match
That encourages getting good positions and then losing them over and over again though. Like if you hold mount for 5 minutes that's only 4 points, but someone who keeps on getting a terrible knee on belly 5 times for a total of a minute could win despite you having the better position for longer
@@KamalaLovingMan yes, but that's also on you if you can't retain guard. The submission only scene has made as if being positionally dominated is fine.
I agree I did a fight 2 Win I ended up losing the match after I took the kid down swept him multiple times and passed his guard and he fell back on a couple arm in guillotines which I would just sweep him off of and I end up losing. Things that come down to judges in jiujitsu I don’t think are very good because most of the times these judges don’t care and they’re literally deciding whether they’re rising their left or right hand to decide a close match.
Jiu-jitsu competitions are never going to be spectator driven. People just don't enjoy them unless they are 'into it' in someway, or they have family or friends that are involved in the sport. It's dull. I cringes when I hear 'professional jiu-jitsu fighter'. You're not a fighter. You're a grappler. I'm a fighter. Every guy or gal that steps into the cage or ring and throws hands is a fighter. You're a grappler. Now, that skill-set is amazingly useful in MMA, but if you ain't punchin' you ain't fightin'. Period! Gordon Ryan isn't a 'fighter'. He's a grappler. Albeit a grappler, but he's no fighter. I've got a few hours in a Cessna and I've played a lot of dog fight video games, but Maverick, I ain't. And it's the same for the jits world. Maybe you spar at you gym or dojo. But until you've gone toe-to-toe with someone that wants to knock you out, you are not a fighter. As for making BJJ enjoyable, well, good luck with that.
Who are you talking to? I specifically called it a match, not a fight. But if you want my take, I will never understand why people fight so hard on if Jiu Jitsu is a fight or not. Call it whatever you want, doesn't matter to me.
I enjoy ADCC as well, although I would like to see them employee the UFC invitational get down rule. Or say a rule that when points are in play and it has been standing for 2+ minutes someone can pull guard. Although most matches are very fun to watch, the last ADCC was frustrating to watch some competitors stand and hand fight for 10 mins straight, just collar tying one another and pushing instead of attempting to get it to the ground.
You clicked on a video going over the worst things about submission only jiu jitsu and got upset that the content is exactly what it says? Good job dude.
@@grapplingwithjiujitsu Then you complained about every rule set, every organization.... What's your solution...? On the edge of my seat for the next video.
bruh put some respect on chad mendes name lmao you said he "submitted jeff glover" like hes some scrub with 0 grappling experience... he was 3x all american at cal poly. idk when glover began grappling but chad mendes may have more grappling experience than him despite glover being more decorated in bjj.
This can go both ways. I would also think its pretty stupid for Jeff Glover to be able to go over and pin Chad Mendes in a wrestling match. "Grappling experience" can mean a lot of different things.
I agree, you made perfectly great points for each tournament style/ rule set. I have competed in IBJJF, local, Fight 2 Win and no time limit / no referee decision tournaments in which it only stopped with a submission! While it was great time, it was a very long day for spectators!
Thank you! Yeah, it's impossible to make a ruleset that makes everyone happy so its probably good for the competitors to have all these options. But its getting more and more confusing for the fans 😂
This mentality is what is going to lead to the death of the martial art. In every sport like this it starts out as a viable martial art untill spectators, fans, and pussy competitors whitewash the rules. Best example is sport Judo - what was once a beautiful and effective martial art has developed into pretty throw spamming where you don’t even have to land on top to win. Look at karate: they don’t even fight with force anymore it’s joke touch sparring. You keep following this crap yo he gonna get kid black belts and more he rules like reaping. I would much rather risk someone taking advantage of the rules by “stalling” than having matches like the ones in IBJJF matches where athletes willingly GIVE UP position so they can farm points.
Hence Judo went to golden score and eliminated the judges, the first to score during extended time wins. As much as people think Judo is outdated, it is ahead of BJJ in many aspects.
But still washed out unfortunately. I love Judo and I wish it stayed a complete martial art as it used to be. Now everyone is thinking scoring points… there wouldn’t be room for BJJ if Newaza was still here
But the entire art suffered for the name of entertainment
there are orgs that do golden score in BJJ. guys just stall until OT then score any points to win. it ends up being similar to EBI
Submission Only No Time Limit = Cardio Competition
EBI = Professional Situational Training
Submission Only with Judges = Invisible Points Tournament
IBJJF = Visible Points Tournament
ADCC = Stall until points tournament.
Original Polaris was my favorite super fight format. Two people compete for a cash bonus for a submission if neither person wins, it’s a draw.
So I guess basically I think we should only have two formats.
“Points” or “submission only time limit without judges” resulting in a draw if neither competitor gets a submission.
nailed it.
My least favourite rule set is EBI. Nothing more annoying then watching two competitors attempt to not do jiu jitsu just to get to OT and be put in a dominant position you never attempted to get to in regulation. You can almost see certain gyms not training for regulation matches but rather just training for OT.
‘Escaping’ from back to mount 😂
I don't think EBI rules are any kind of problem if referees can penalise stalling heavily and if you don't get paid for non-sub wins. For actual EBI shows, I think it works pretty well because the money and prestige is all in the subs. Nobody who stalled out a tournament win in EBI is getting invited back.
Op comment 🫡
@@XKenny77 respectfully I disagree. It depends on your name. Look at the last UFC invitational. The only person attempting subs in regulation was big Dan, every other competitor went the distance to end in OT. Craig Jones said himself his strategy against Pena was to take him to OT as he knew he has way more experience in the ruleset. I don't think Craig Jones or Nicky Rod have to worry about not being invited back or not being paid big money four matches. Sure for the no-name guys it would be in their best interests to get a sub in regulation and make the match exciting but for the well-known guys they'll just game the match and play the rule set to their advantage because they know that they'll get called back no matter what because their name sells tickets.
@@wonderbread1966 Maybe so. The refereeing generally wasn't brilliant at FPI though. I wouldn't go to full Quintet pace, but refs could afford to be a LOT more punitive about stalling. EBI rules allow for a minute OT penalty for stalling in regulation time. That should be used much, much more liberally. If it was, I think EBI rules would be a lot less problematic for most people. Every ruleset provides opportunities to stall out for a win. The only way to fix that is to penalise stalling heavily.
I couldn't agree more. The "invisible" points of F2W have bothered me forever, the EBI just stall until overtime has done the same, and as much as people rag on IBJJF, the points force people to move. That being said Quintet is my absolute favorite rule set as a spectator.
Yeah I hate EBI
I enjoy the AJP ruleset. No pulling down the pants, last man to score wins in case of a draw or if zero zero golden score, 10 seconds for the stall penalty 🥦👍
Interesting take - for open tournaments I totally agree. For invite superfights like WNO, I think there’s one more important factor athletes have to consider: will they be rebooked (or paid well) for another fight, if they play a stally game. In general for those I don’t mind a somewhat arbitrary refs decision. It’s a tough spot, as you said any ruleset is going to get exploited. Hopefully the recent UFC event was the last EBI rules we see for a while though, that was brutal.
Yeah, and to be clear, as much as I dislike the ruleset itself....WNO puts on the most enjoyable events to watch, at least for me(and I assume for the average fan). I think part of that credit is to the match maker, they always pick really good match ups that I'm sure would be exciting matchups in any ruleset. But it also could just be exactly what your saying, where if they don't put on exciting matches...they don't get a match.
BJJ matches seem best when there is a disparity in skillset.
The DDS looked exciting because they used tactics other folks were not familiar with.
Ryan looks good because he is just way better.
When the levels are more even than getting a sub is just extremely hard and the rulesets are not going to change that.
Folks will always try to find loopholes to abuse the rules and win by stalling or some other way that the inventors of the rules did not want.
Judo is a great example. The rules had to be changed a ton of times because athletes kept finding new ways to stall or game the system.
Wrestling has solved this problem a different way. The referee can call "stalling" on an opponent who isn't actively trying to advance their position. I don't know if this would be a good thing for BJJ or not, but it would be good to see a rule-set that gave it a try.
As a former wrestler (and current wrestling coach), who also trains BJJ, it is one of the big differences between the two sports "culturally" and it originates in this specific rule. Wrestlers are constantly grinding, whereas in BJJ you will often see a more relaxed mentality.
The way it works in American folkstyle is as follows (the international styles are similar, but not identical): Stalling is defined as failing to attempt to improve, and can occur in any position. The referee has the discretion to call either competitor for stalling at any time. Typically they will give a verbal warning first, although this is not necessary. The first stalling call is no points. The second call is a point. The third call is a point. The fourth call is two points. The fifth call is disqualification. In 40 years of wrestling I have never personally witnessed a fourth stalling call in a match, but I am sure it has happened.
Clearly this gives the ref some power, and I have seen it affect the outcome of a match, but I have rarely seen it affect the outcome of a match where both competitors where genuinely seeking to advance their position throughout the entire bout. In short, it forces wrestlers to press for the advantage every second.
That exact rule exists in IBJJF. You can call one or both fighters for passivity and give negative points. The rules are fine, its the application of the rules that causes issues.
@@cockneyblue wow, i didn't know that. ive never seen it called
I just did my first BJJ tournament I paid 120 bucks to compete The crowd people are paying $10 to come in do you know who's paying for these tournaments?? The Competitors!! So If people want to start paying for these tournaments because they're entertained by them or they want to watch them then that's fine until then I'm paying for the damn tournament I should get to choose what the hell I want and I want sub only!!!!
Aside from "winning" and "losing", modern jiu jitsu has bastardized ancient war practice... I think back to the Sack of Rome in 410 AD, where the Duke of Bourbon could NOT be bothered with "guard passing" or "submission" catches.... There was no "grip fighting" he focused his efforts on starving the roman economy ultimately leading to underpaid underfed soldiers who would then mutiny against their own emperor. I think modern jiu jitsu athletes should take a deeper look beyond having a highly competitive sport, which they love and are passionate about and start implementing the ACTUAL TOOLS OF WAR. People are soft now I guess...
😂🤣👏
I agree. It is SO MUCH more fun watching seasoned competitors strategically put their hooks in and then take them out over and over, eventually winning by points. I remember the Iraq War, during battles the refs would be going around assigning points to whomever for cool things they did, a lot of people don't know this but Iraq actually ended up winning that war on points.
And a lot of people complain about how statistically it has been proven that the IBJJF heavily favors Brazilian competitors through biased reffing, including the many refs who refuse to talk to you if you don't speak Portuguese. People don't understand this is JUSTIFIED because they invented jiu jitsu to begin with and honestly, manipulating refereeing is the real jiu jitsu because you win without even really fighting. The ultimate goal of jiu jitsu.
Anyway, I have to go now because I am unfortunately very ill after eating Brazilian sushi.
TRUE dude! I’ve been saying this for years…They only way to fix things, is to make jiu jitsu more like the Iraq war….no more taps, those weren’t allowed in the war so why should we allow them in our sport? Why pass the guard when you can just throw a grenade in there? Right!?
fax
I like ADCC rules best but I have to admit a lot of the matches only really start when the points are available.
But what about 3rd Coast Grappling?!😂😂😂😂
Keep making videos you’re my favorite bjj channel rn!! With the sport growing like it is your channel will too
I appreciate that!
Time limit tournament, 15 minute matches, no overtime. Submission wins only. Matches that end without submission treats both athletes as having lost
Great video
Thank you!
Agreed! So boring!!
I'm just a dumbass white belt, but it seems pretty obvious to me. Make stalling a disadvantage and reset to standing; in the event of a tie, go to a coin toss. This incentivizes both competitors moving and advancing to avoid stalling, and incentivizes attacking to avoid the coin toss.
I think submission only is the best rule set treat it like rolling
You argue that you don't want the judges to decide the match and than favor the IBJJF which has the lowest threshold for having (only 1) judge decide the match and notifying the competitors immediately so that they can start stalling ASAP.
No, you misunderstood. I argued that I don't want a judges decision based off an arbitrary thing like "aggression". Positions you get points for in an ibjjf match are objective. You don't need 3 judges to decide that. You have a head ref to overturn calls if there is a mistake.
If you could win by pins I think it would be more exciting. Either that or team events where matches ends on ties so you can avoid overtime like they did in quintet
Takedowns, dominate top position, and submission attempts should always be the rule sets to make the spot more exciting
Then it becomes catch wrestling and BJJ seems to really hate catch.
EBI was innovative for 2014. They were trying to solve the problem of Wrestlers / MMA fighters stalling into OT then winning with a Takedown. It worked, but created as many problems as it solved.
That's how it's going to be for most new rule sets.
I’ve been feeling this way for awhile. Watching the submission only stuff take off. Its a bummer to take my kid students to a tournament to watch them positionally demolish someone and then lose to some kid who eeks out a win with a couple seconds ride time in an EBI overtime. I don’t mind for higher level adult matches but not for beginners and kids.
I believe if the stalling penalties get called correctly, adcc has the best ruleset to compete in.
WNO has been the most entertaining to watch for fight cards for sure.
Most spectator friendly event with a lot of excitement is by far Quintet.
You could also do this on Pro-Events like the old Pride days and give people a yellow card warning to reduce their purse. Will make them keep active.
For myself as a fighter, I love EBI the most .
Everyone has a clear winner at the end and you don't loose because of a butched position and then stalling
I think EBI with the Molly whop rule is the best rule set. This means if someone is stalling the whole match or getting run over, that guy loses, no overtime. Overtime only happens when both competitors are trying to submit the other person.
Been saying this for years, the rule set really doesn't matter THAT much. I honestly don't get the hype of sub only, all of the most exciting matches I've seen are points matches, some of them even ended in a point victory. It's almost cathartic to know I'm not alone in this lmao.
You cannot be more wrong submission only it's the cleanest everything else like points bullshit that's what's bad
I like AJP ruleset the best. no advangtages, limited 50/50 stalling, and no asscracks on full display. also turtle results as a sweep or take down if the athlete turtling began on the feet. IBJJF and adcc act like their rules are about positions of striking potential....and a semi related thought: half guard and turtle are both positions of striking potential and are rarely rewarded as such; If points exist, we really need to do away with the striking potential thing, because there are no strikes in jiu jitsu and youre just LARPING as an mma fighter.
I completely agree with you. All rule sets have their flaws, but I think points are positive: they’re an approximation to MMA which says “I could rain punches from this back mount” etc. Double guard pull footsie-fests make me embarrassed to do bjj.
ADCC should try shortening everything. Maybe first 2 minutes no points, then a 5 minute points period.
As it stands, it's like, first minute decides whether the top player can be leg-locked. Then there is like 2.5 minutes of general 'feel-out'. Then 1.5 minutes of getting ready for points to kick in, then the match actually starts.
Hands down, the best ruleset in all of grappling is sambo, even better then Judo. The 4 major issues with bjj for spectator entertainment, guard passing takes to long, pulling guard if your trying to attract fans, don’t do it, absolutely the best way to turn a spectator off the sport, and lastly takedown. Take down point should be given by the technical difficulties of the takedown. Sweeps and throws are harder to learn then a shoot, spectators love sweep and throws because they are are big movements. leg locks, nobody wants to see two guys playing footy with each other on the ground for 5 min. What folks want to see, quite honestly is a guy go unconscious because it is finite. Joints are not finite. They don’t want to hear a pop and a match not called because they didn’t tap, because it is basically lying to your audience that this technique works, which obviously does not. And those things all hinder the entertainment value of the sport. BJJ is hard to watch, and is why USA wrestling is gaining so much traction. The pin is finite and everyone understands it.
I’d argue F2W is still learning and has room for improvement, the org is trying to put up a show and pay its participants. I refuse to contribute to the IBJJF, paying outrageous tournament prices, having biased refs and not paying its athletes is a huge red flag. EBI has a good concept, but people get absolutely destroyed in regular time, are able to survive to overtime and manage to win because of fastest escape time or a lucky sub.
Maybe add some kind of positional win condition. Like if you can maintain control for five seconds, three separate times, then you win. Or something like that. Yeah submissions are great, but if someone can pin you three separate times before you can submit them once, I feel like it's safe to say that they've beaten you. I think it would encourage more takedowns and interesting scrambles.
Watching from home, the worst is the one with the most editing. For example, not much is really happening but they zoom in at an extreme angle to make it look like there's something happening. Really the camera is doing more work than the athletes. Nvm the ruleset, the production. Save the editing for Hollywood
I think, we cannot onut the fact that bjj player know exactly how to stall without being. They fakin being busy large part it the match.
It happens regardless the ruleset being used. We can’t go public and reach out non practitioner as consumers to gain way more audience.
I would like to see a tourney with a ruleset slightly modified from ibbjf.
1. no points for sweeps.
Is there really an advantage to being the passer? So many people prefer to play guard. If that's the case, why would you want to sweep someone and turn yourself from the guard player into the passer?
2. I don't like how side control or knee on belly is given up so easily to allow an opponent to regain his guard, just so you can pass it again for 3 more pts. I would say not to regrant those passing points unless you had achieved a mount or back mount prior to that. No more racking up points by allowing someone to capture your foot in 1/2 guard, then you just knee slide for 3 more points...repeat..
3. no refs decisions... sudden death where next points win.
The best possible ruleset: quintet + point limit. So you win by submission or reaching a certain amount of points. That way they force people to do some bjj and not lay down and just defend.
Unpleasant truth: IBJJF ruleset is by far the best one and Americans came up with other formats because they could not beat the world's best.
Random idea to promote aggression for the pro events. A public voting system to keep them in or stay. Stallers wud be voted off while more entertaining athletes will get to stay. Even on victories/defeats.
I don’t think there’s an issue with some ruleset variability especially in pro events.
The issue is how the athletes decide to compete. I think if they did rounds like wrestling and encouraged aggressive stalling calls we could have some exciting matches, but then we may lose a lot of guard play.
It’s a tough one. The art suffers in many of the rulesets regardless.
I think using the wrestings rule set, specifically when one athlete is on all fours an the others on their back side is better, rather than EBI OT rules statrting them in a sub
an just have ref not be so partial to 3 min stalls
Submission only no time limit is not the best way to find out who is the best.
If you beat someone, you're better. That's it. Plain and simple
Yeah, I agree with you brother, right now the best rule set in my opinion is the one championship, most of the nogi matches a pretty excited. Never gonna have a perfect rule set, the only way that you can make the athletes go for it is putting money on the game, like one championship does
What if the EBI OT rule was changed to: the position in the overtime must be chosen among the ones you got into the fight?
This is where you see the baby mindset of BJJ coming out in competitions. The best BJJ athlete in the world Gordon Ryan, has a solid consistent strategy of "I'll wear you down until you can't defend my attacks because my stamina is greater so it takes as long as it takes".
People are treating "No-Gi Submission only" as the 2nd closest reality to open no rules combat and then thinking that following Gordon's mindset is what will lead to victories but the mentality of being patient in fighting is ridiculous and ever accepting bottom position has been something the UFC has harboured by not allowing kicks/knees to a downed opponent.
Compare this to the mindset of Judo where you're aggressively punished for stalling and taking your time and you loose the match if your opponent can get your back on the mat because that's where you'd get your head stomped. You are actively encouraged to find the fastest and most explosive way to slam your opponent onto the ground.
This concept is mocked by BJJ players that don't understand why a referee would stand people up all the time is because you are looking to perfect 1 singular attack that would end the combative engagement. You can't really deny something that has been practiced and mastered over 1000 years of war.
This is coming from someone who has a brown belt in Both Judo and BJJ individually that can't for the life of me find BJJ partners that want to start engagements from standing.
If you want BJJ to be a spectator sport and not a martial art then by all means keep tweaking the rules for "entertainment" value like we saw with the most recent EBI rules event on Fight pass that forced 2 people to stop and be engaged in advantageous positions because BJJ players are refusing to engage because there is no punishment for not doing so.
IBJJF does have the best ruleset because it focuses on positional control over submissions generally. However if they want to push for it to be more of a Martial Art they need to promote takedowns and punish passivity/stalling or going out of bounds aggressively with either a Cage like we see in ONE championship or disqualifications for going out of bounds or stalling in a position.
I've proposed this idea in a few other places but I'm always looking for new feedback:
What about no time limit with points?
The first to get a set amount of points wins the match
That sounds like a good idea
That encourages getting good positions and then losing them over and over again though. Like if you hold mount for 5 minutes that's only 4 points, but someone who keeps on getting a terrible knee on belly 5 times for a total of a minute could win despite you having the better position for longer
@@KamalaLovingMan that’s true
@@KamalaLovingMan yes, but that's also on you if you can't retain guard. The submission only scene has made as if being positionally dominated is fine.
I agree I did a fight 2 Win I ended up losing the match after I took the kid down swept him multiple times and passed his guard and he fell back on a couple arm in guillotines which I would just sweep him off of and I end up losing. Things that come down to judges in jiujitsu I don’t think are very good because most of the times these judges don’t care and they’re literally deciding whether they’re rising their left or right hand to decide a close match.
Cheetoh fingers 😂
1:58 If those were regular wood nunckucks it'd put me on pause too lol
What do you think would be the ideal ruleset if you could make one?
Lol 1:20 Felipe Peña did not need to push him afterwards
Just enforce stalling and make people work.
totally agree. IBJJF is still the best and still the standard.
Why does jiu jitsu need to be exciting for spectators?
Jiu-jitsu competitions are never going to be spectator driven. People just don't enjoy them unless they are 'into it' in someway, or they have family or friends that are involved in the sport. It's dull. I cringes when I hear 'professional jiu-jitsu fighter'. You're not a fighter. You're a grappler. I'm a fighter. Every guy or gal that steps into the cage or ring and throws hands is a fighter. You're a grappler. Now, that skill-set is amazingly useful in MMA, but if you ain't punchin' you ain't fightin'. Period!
Gordon Ryan isn't a 'fighter'. He's a grappler. Albeit a grappler, but he's no fighter. I've got a few hours in a Cessna and I've played a lot of dog fight video games, but Maverick, I ain't. And it's the same for the jits world. Maybe you spar at you gym or dojo. But until you've gone toe-to-toe with someone that wants to knock you out, you are not a fighter.
As for making BJJ enjoyable, well, good luck with that.
Who are you talking to? I specifically called it a match, not a fight. But if you want my take, I will never understand why people fight so hard on if Jiu Jitsu is a fight or not. Call it whatever you want, doesn't matter to me.
An interesting and nuanced take.
Stalling is just playing defense.
Great breakdown! 💜
Great breakdown of the different rule sets.
I'm a new white belt all this stuff is amazing.
Thank you. Welcome to Jiu Jitsu, Glad you like it!
ADCC rules are by far the best, then 15 minutes submission only. IBJJF rules are the worst.
I enjoy ADCC as well, although I would like to see them employee the UFC invitational get down rule. Or say a rule that when points are in play and it has been standing for 2+ minutes someone can pull guard.
Although most matches are very fun to watch, the last ADCC was frustrating to watch some competitors stand and hand fight for 10 mins straight, just collar tying one another and pushing instead of attempting to get it to the ground.
#bringback old judo rules
Very cool
No gi, no problem
ADCC ruleset is 👑
Great video bro. I really enjoy your content
Thank you and welcome!
Nice Tyson 👍
I made it to 4 minutes of all you see are problems.... Did not make minute 5. Hopefully you had solutions.
You clicked on a video going over the worst things about submission only jiu jitsu and got upset that the content is exactly what it says? Good job dude.
@@grapplingwithjiujitsu Then you complained about every rule set, every organization.... What's your solution...? On the edge of my seat for the next video.
Was that professor Andrew doing the referee flag dance at FTW?? 🤣
bruh put some respect on chad mendes name lmao you said he "submitted jeff glover" like hes some scrub with 0 grappling experience... he was 3x all american at cal poly. idk when glover began grappling but chad mendes may have more grappling experience than him despite glover being more decorated in bjj.
This can go both ways. I would also think its pretty stupid for Jeff Glover to be able to go over and pin Chad Mendes in a wrestling match. "Grappling experience" can mean a lot of different things.
I agree, you made perfectly great points for each tournament style/ rule set. I have competed in IBJJF, local, Fight 2 Win and no time limit / no referee decision tournaments in which it only stopped with a submission! While it was great time, it was a very long day for spectators!
Thank you! Yeah, it's impossible to make a ruleset that makes everyone happy so its probably good for the competitors to have all these options. But its getting more and more confusing for the fans 😂
Agreed!😀
eddie bravo vs royler 2 was amazing
great stuff as always!
Thanks again!
This mentality is what is going to lead to the death of the martial art. In every sport like this it starts out as a viable martial art untill spectators, fans, and pussy competitors whitewash the rules. Best example is sport Judo - what was once a beautiful and effective martial art has developed into pretty throw spamming where you don’t even have to land on top to win. Look at karate: they don’t even fight with force anymore it’s joke touch sparring. You keep following this crap yo he gonna get kid black belts and more he rules like reaping. I would much rather risk someone taking advantage of the rules by “stalling” than having matches like the ones in IBJJF matches where athletes willingly GIVE UP position so they can farm points.
TRUE. Sitting down and attacking foot locks for subjective points, that aren't actually scored anywhere is so much better for the martial art.
Sub only is the best, points is crap
Ibjjf is nobody favorite