Episode 98: Paul Kingsnorth & Tom Holland: Myths, Saints, & History, the Bible & Life After Progress
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 พ.ค. 2024
- Welcome to More Christ. We seek to bring some of the world's most interesting and insightful guests to discuss life's central and abiding questions.
In this ninety-eighth episode in a series of discussions, I'm joined once more by my friend, Paul Kingsnorth and Tom Holland.
Paul Kingsnorth is an English writer who lives in the west of Ireland. He is a former deputy-editor of The Ecologist and a co-founder of the Dark Mountain Project.
Kingsnorth's nonfiction writing tends to address macro themes like environmentalism, globalisation, and the challenges posed to humanity by civilisation-level trends. His fiction tends to be mythological and multi-layered.
Follow him here:
www.paulkingsnorth.net/
paulkingsnorth.substack.com/
Tom Holland is a British writer, who has published several popular works on classical and medieval history as well as creating two documentaries. His recent book on the history of Christianity became a Sunday Times bestseller. He is currently the host of The Rest is History, alongside Dominic Sandbrooke.
For more, please see here:
www.amazon.co.uk/Tom-Holland/...
www.tom-holland.org/
open.spotify.com/show/7Cvsbcj...
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Exactly why the East and West need to reunite. Head (logos) and heart (caritas) together.
So glad "The Rest is History" made Tom get some decent sound equipment. :)
"Gold star on this convo. One of the best I've heard in a long time (and I listen to A LOT of convos...). Don't miss it!"
- Paul Vander Klay
The man has spoken. :)
Oh I really love this conversation!
Really good discussion. I found myself tearing up listening to Tom's heartfelt questions to Paul about taking that next step, that leap. So often, talks turn to theology and get into the weeds, but my favorite is hearing the story of the mystical ways we are pursued by the Great Lover of mankind. We run, but He won't let the lost sheep get away, glory to God.
The quote from Martin Shaw that Paul gives near the end was absolutely brilliant: “When I converted to Orthodox Christianity I realised I’d actually been a Christian all my life but just never realised it”. This is really brilliant and spot on and something I could relate to (I am also on the path to orthodoxy).
Super excited about this one!
Thanks for bringing another gem of a discussion, Marcas. Just to say...the book titles that pop up in your videos are very helpful. And I find the notion that you may have actually read them all pretty intense!
I hope Tom Holland pops over to see your excellent film on St Cuthbert and also your video pilgrimage to Lindisfarne. Good to see your comments here, Oliver.
@@ButterBobBriggs A man can dream, Bob! Incidentally I saw Holland speak in person about one of Cuthbert's contemporaries, Wilfrid, in Ripon Cathedral last May just after I got back from Lindisfarne. He managed to slip in the story with Cuthbert and the sea otters. Something good is stirring, however small at the moment.
I could listen to these two talk for hours. I struggle with being secular, resistant but still crawling towards Christianity
I started out that way, felt a call, but vague. I wandered into an Inquiry session at the local Catholic Church, fell madly in love with God and the Church and came into the church twenty years ago. May you find your journey.
Another EXCELLENT one! Thanks, Marcus.
What I find absolutely fascinating in Orthodox Christianity is exactly what I sense in this conversation as well. To be a Christian does not imply that one has to have all the answers. Rather like Job, it is enough having confidence in God's mysterious paths, and feeling an awe along the way.
I too have a soft spot for orthodoxy, although I have little knowledge about it. The music can make you instantly weep, the architecture is some of the most beautiful. Writers like Dostoevsky seem to have started off from orthodoxy into a fascinating realm of theological reasoning. Yet, the news of the day once again seem to remind me, that the "left-brain thinking" of the West, its amalgamation of Christianity into liberalism has ultimately made itself irreplaceable as a guide to today's world. Dostoevsky would probably have distilled senseless invasions, rapes and beheadings into some serene wise & radical reflection, but there is just no way to live a life together with people absconding the Logos altogether like that. I would reallly love to hear what Christian intellectuals like these two have to say on this point. What has happened to Russian orthodoxy? Was there anything lingering within it's theological or social setup that predisposed it to veer into this position where it offers itself up as a legitimation device for a genocydal war and in all probability even systematically channels FSB agents into Ukraine & other foreign countries?.. .
@@timidtom When all MSM is saying one thing, you can be sure that they are lying. It might be time we all asked questions about our own government's involvement in genocidal wars, and coups in other countries, and their vested interests in fomenting conflict abroad.
Not saying you are wrong, but it might be a worthwhile endeavour to dig a little deeper on the aforementioned conflict, and weigh it in context in relation to the collective west's involvement in overt and covert warfare over the past 70 years.
@@timidtom Historians usually deal with the past events. They also need as many reliable sources as they can have. If we try to give a reasonable account on current events and processes, relying on war propaganda and click bait headlines, we are more likely to make mistakes based also on our prejudices and biases.
Just so you know, I am in a Russian Orthodox Church whose bishops condemn the war on all sides. If you would like to discuss this with them-your questions above-they would love to speak with you. You have a very good question which I cannot answer but they , I feel sure, can help you understand what happened to the Russian Orthodox Church. Look up Dormition Skete in Buena Vista Colorado-Bishop Gregory and Bishop John. @@timidtom
Two great observers and writers of our current time and past times. That comment from you, Mr. Holland, about the 60's being our rejection of the idea of our original sin really resonated with me. I know that accords with Kingsnorth's view that we basically reject all limits now. I would really look forward to a book on the 60's from you Mr. Holland (I read Dominion and also gave it to both of my "secular" nieces for Christmas). Paul, I'm a Substack subscriber to you and your writing and story have meant so much to me. Thank you to both of you, and thank you Marcus for bringing these 2 men together for us.
Dominion was important on my journey too, I’ve found that it continually deepens my sense of gratitude.
What a pair of fine blokes...
God bless England, Henry and Saint George!!
You were very blessed to have those two gents on your podcast, my friend.
Thank you very much for this.
If I could say one thing to Tom Holland it would be this: “Put aside your fears and anxieties about those who were born before Christ or who have been born into non-Christian environments. It’s admirable that you are concerned, but, if you are a Christian, or want to be one, one of the things that that means is having a complete belief and faith in Christ, that He knows what He is doing, and that He has a plan for all those people as well. You just need to do your bit, have faith, carry your cross etc. He will do the rest!”
Romans 2:13-16 takes care of that anxiety. Those who don't have "the law" will be judged by their conscience. It is just their loss that they do not have the consolation of the Holy Spirit during their lives on earth.
Reading Dominion was a profound experience for me as well, perhaps in similar ways as it was for Paul. Have been following and reading Tom since then, and I must say, this might be the best I have seen him. His erudition combined with the earnest spiritual seeking is very inspiring to me. Thank you all for discussing these matter in such an appreciative fashion and opening up paths and interpretative keys for others to explore, it is very helpful.
This was delightful, delicious even... with a touch of sadness. May the Lord, the tender and mighty hunter-shepherd call out to Tom and may he hear that voice loud and clear! Thank you guys!
i loved this, thank you
A gem of an discussion. Such a meeting of hearts and minds. I hope there will be a continuation.
Listening to this again and it's fascinating to hear Tom almost surrender to it, leaning over the edge, nearly falling in...
Tom, if I may, regarding your question at about 44:30, early in my walk of faith, I found the book Eternity in Their Hearts very very helpful. It’s not a great work of literature, but the author, explores, distant tribes, who throughout their history, had had no opportunity to hear of Christ, and yet, in their own tribal mythologies, they were waiting for the one who had been foretold. Such is the love of God.
Piranesi by Susanna Clarke is a book that beautifully explores in powerful fiction the opening of one door after another into ever greater vistas.
I've listened to quite a few interviews with both Paul and Tom and I think this was the one I enjoyed most. Thank you, Marcas.
Marvellous discussion, indeed. A special thanks to Márcas for interspersing the conversation with relevant books.
Loved every minute of it. Bravo Marcas for another stellar conversation with two of my favorites.
What a wonderful and encouraging conversation! I, like Mr. Vander Klay, listen to a lot of conversations. This one had a tone like few others and I am thankful to see two men entering the kingdom, albeit at different stages. This is as much a comment as a prayer for them, to press on after Jesus despite it all. Glory to God, brothers!
Once I understood the absolute non-metaphorical nature of the Incarnation, it began to fall into place that the Genesis story could be understood as metaphor for ultimate spiritual reality...as spiritual reality is a our first, most immediate, most pressing reality. And that moreover, this is the way truth was communicated in the Ancient Middle East (I consider the prophets, and Jesus himself in this respect) . I presume that Jesus himself would have communicated the history of our initial problem of sin through metaphor, if it had not already been communicated in the Torah. When is metaphor ever used to serve a lie? Perhaps never, I think. I ponder this question quite a bit. God bless you, Tom and Paul. I pray for you both.
Perhaps intentionally "Slipping the moorings" to re-read the Bible may have been an act of faith? Chesterton describes his conversion as feeling like he was a magnet rotating at just past the distance of attraction until one day it grabbed him. Then the rest of the journey begins...twenty years in as a Wiccan-to-Catholic and still learning every day. Great discussion.
Remarkable dialog! I hope they find a way to keep the discussion going.
Made me smile how Tom went off because dinner was ready :)
Great conversation thank you! More please 🙏
This was such a special conversation. A threshold moment that held the tension between rational thought and Romantic seeking and through the honesty and integrity of those conversing it moved into a Christ-like space. This IS the future
Marvelous conversation, not what I was expecting at all.
Well done to you, I really admire your restraint in letting them speak without feeling the need to get too involved. Your guests tent to open up more than usual
Sorry for not having the exact citation, but from St. John of the Cross, "God refuses to be known by the intellect. God only allows himself to be loved by the heart." He is patient with us and waits for us to start the conversation.
I can relate. My readings, studies and contemplation of life of the 1st Millennium Church in Gaul, Brittan, and Ireland has enchanted me sense I was a sophomore in Highschool history class. it all led me to the Orthodox church. In the people and culture of Appalachia, where I grew up, I found a deep sense of faith, mystery and enchantment that gradually drew me out of such a purely scientific / humanist world view. I had yearned for a new spiritual understanding and experience and it has been becoming Orthodox that has now and continues to affirm it's reality. It has so many layers that goes on and on. This sense of things has always been with me.
Thank you very much for this conversation, Marcas! It provoketh me into thought, assuredly.
Thank you for access to this wise dialogue - brimming with warmth and mystery. May God bless your work. ❤
Absolutely marvelous!
Amazing conversation. Thank you. ✝️🙏
What a fascinating conversation, full of insight, and so very timely. Thank you.
A remarkable and rewarding conversation. Thank you all.
Thank you for sharing this wonderful conversation. It was both personally revealing and universal in scope. Americans could use more conversations like this, to help us grapple with Christianity. Healthy skepticism is bottled up, so it has turned into cynicism, while our political elites keep inviting more Marxists to our shores. We need to become better educated about the history of ideas, to steer this ship... so thank you.
I’ll be giving this a 2nd listen during the week, excellent convo. PS: Marcas looking forward to running my “flat earth theory” pass you, that John Wesley was the final joining of the dots of Western & Eastern European Christianity between Columba and Cyril & Methodius in readiness for it to become one of the dominant strains in post war of independence USA. Cuthbert, John Wycliffe, Jan Hus and the Moravians being some of the other dots.
What a delightful discussion. Thanks for hosting this.
Very lovely!! I've been listening and reading to both Paul Kingsnorth and Tom Holland a lot lately so this was just a great listen. Thank you for this.
Also I've listened to a few of your episodes before but I found this after Paul Kingsnorth mentioned it being interviewed on a Swedish podcast.
I had a similar problem to Mr. Holland when thinking about all the people who lived before Christianity or those who never even knew about it. Then I read The Last Battle by C.S. Lewis and gained new perspective.
What is the gist of The Last Battle?
This was a beautiful conversation.
The most riveting discussion I've listened to for a long time. Inspiring and full of hope for a much brighter future.
Would like to hear Paul and Tom discuss the book of Enoch and the book of Giants!
A comment by @Scott Harrison described Tom as a monk in a scriptorium …
Yes! Perhaps a little sunshine and play outside the monastery would help. Not to discount the importance of pouring over the tomes and pondering, but as self-professed, it can’t quite get one there. It must be lived, don’t you think. A personal experience, a quickening of the heart. Basically as described by Paul who seems to have had that. “Described” is an interesting word.
Such a fascinating conversation, especially about the Greek philosophers on the wall - the ancestors. - yes. It is all in the heart, right, and we are all born with heart no matter who or where and regardless of culture or tradition. Lest we become like a little child…. That’s really it. Islam accepts and reveres Christ as a prophet, and says God is as close as the vein in your neck. In other words, God is in you, not out there. Like Paul said, God is in your heart. In everyone’s heart. Muslim tradition describes the 99 names of God. The All-knowing, The Merciful, etc. 99!! They imply God is in you and out of you and in everything, everywhere. That, it seems to me, describes the Union that is our destination in this journey we are on. All of us. To become One with God. To know God. To experience God. To walk with God. And thereby love God and one another as we love ourselves. Isn’t it? Christ shows the way to everyone but especially those who are lost. Which is why it became necessary to manifest on Earth. At least that is my feeling, thought intuition and understanding and the rest.
Thank you for such a wonderful, from the heart conversation.
I loved this ❤ so fascinating and inspired. Thank you🙏🏽
I love what you're doing, but I encourage you, in love, to improve the quality of your podcast by upgrading your acoustic treatment in your room & your microphone. The audio quality makes it difficult to understand what you're saying, at times. I pray God continues to bless you.
Finally got round to listening to this one. Good work Marcus!
Thanks Paul, Tom and Marcus!
Great convo❤
Crushing it. Great video, brother!
Wonderful.
Wow. That was a great conversation.
Great show guys +. One observation regarding Aristotle and Plato. It is a historical fact that Greece had a settled Jewish diaspora which surely means the Greeks would be familiar with the Mosaic law and the content of Revelation. I would be interested in exploring this topic more if anyone has any book recommendations. In hoc signo vinces +.
you are doing a good job Marcus
The idea that our culture is soaked through with moral and political assumptions whose unacknowledged source is Christianity, for which Holland makes such a good case in Dominion, seems at odds with the idea (which he expresses towards the end here) that Christianity has now become countercultural. Presumably it is Christianity considered as a dogmatic theology - or as a spiritual discipline? - which is considered countercultural, while the aspects of it which have formed modern society are the ethical values, specifically the valorisaton of the poor and downtrodden. But the spirituality and theology are meant to provide some sort of grounding for the values, aren't they? So how can they be countercultural if the culture has adopted the values that they ground? I ask this not because I reject either of the ideas in question, - both seem very plausible to me - but they do seem to be in tension with one another. Would it perhaps be more accurate to say that it is only a very restricted subset of Christian values which have been adopted by our culture, which in the absence of the rest do not really cohere or make sense, while other Christian values remain wholly inimical to it: in other words, that our culture's values derive from a partial and truncated understanding of Christianity - that they constitute a very modern form of Christian heresy?
Thanks for a thoughtful comment. That's precisely my concern with Tom and something I'd like to explore further. It was on my long list of questions which we never got round to on this occasion. Like you, I think Chesterton is right that the Christian virtues have run amok because they have been isolated from one another.
Yes, which Christianity? RCC and Orthodox are anti-modern, have been countercultural for a long time. Because a few liberal Christians are recoiling in horror, does not a movement make.
Please arrange a second conversion between these two men...
This was so enlightening on many areas, and the clarity it brings of the cost the split of the head and heart, not to mention the earlier split from the Oriental church which seems to have been an more clear precurser, which maybe could be seen as the gut instinct center especially if the northern east and west are head and heart. As the lack of gut health/ not trusting our instinctual side of our faith led to less healthy faith and lack of awareness. Its reaffirming my sense that the mess our world is in now is deeper than East vs. West. And despite being concerned with many recent aspects of things going on in Rome, the speed of this cultural insanity has exponentially exploded ever since the Eastern Patriarchs and Pope Francis even broached the idea of meeting in Nicaea in 2025 to try to communicate at all, let alone hold a true Council.
It also brings a lot of sense as to why there is a growth in interest in the Tridentine/Latin High Mass of Roman Catholicism that is so clear as a counter-movement to the progressive Catholic college, full of liberation theology, and social justice that has lost its Christ center in a way that Judas lost focus when he wanted to "fix all poverty" by judging the woman who used the oil for Jesus.
It is a clear counter cultural seeking of something older, deeper and more mystical in the most academic of all Christian beliefs.
We live in a virtual moral meritocracy
Marcas pls check celtic orthodox church as well they are also inspired by malankara orthodox church
Tom's prospective book on the 60s.... check out Del Noce ... you likely have, but
My thoughts are that human-kind before the “fall from Eden” was pre-rational and pre-discrimination - i.e. pre-Cro Magnon.
Might not reductionism leading to rationalism as culprit with respect to the direction Western Christianity took, have been the unintended consequence of nothing more than intellectualism? Of the hypnotic imprisonment of thinking about thinking for the sake unnecessarily, of doing explicit justice to the doctrine of the supremacy of the intellect? Of considering the pursuit of comprehension even at the expense of apprehension, safer and therefore greater and more righteous?
A hidden crisis of faith fueled possibly by fear and driven by the temptation to control, all wrapped up in a determination to demonstrate the competence required to claim rightful ownership of God, may have had some influence.
An intriguing book entitled "Brother Petroc's Return" explores this idea.
The heresy of U of Paris and U of Oxford
East is Ontology vs west is epistemology ?
i would love to listen to the praise him version in full that is in the intro. anyone know how to find it?
Nyazura Mission Church Choir: Praise Him. (I am going there)
@@MoreChrist thank you, it is very beautiful
At 3:51 Tom Holland says a word, "vartic"? What does this mean? A Google search doesn't bring up anything
He said vatic but it sounded like it had an r because of his accent. Definition: describing or predicting what will happen in the future.
"vatic utterances"
@@MoreChrist Great, thanks for explaining 👍
At one point Paul mentions that 'Diablo' (or Devil) has it's roots in the idea of division, but having looked briefly into the etymology of the word I can't find this link. All I get is 'slanderer.'
It's not so accidentley, I guess. For eastern unexperimented people it's so funny in ,,Blackadder's" episode, when Elisabeth looks for pretenders to her hand,..., the greek one speaks sooo funny, Elisabeth is amused too, and greeks escape with the head on.
20:00. Bookmark
Tom looks like a monk in a scriptorium, leaning over his manuscript…
Is Mr. Kingsnorth now a believer in the absolute DIVINITY of Jesus, and that Jesus is one with the supernatural God-The-Father?
He is.
51:00 baby out with the bath water. 😂😂😢
Great conversation.
My only reservation being Paul's somewhat blind adherence to environmentalism, or more specifically the perception that colonising space will be contrary to all environmental and spiritual considerations.
For Humanity to Survive and avoid a cataclysmic meteorite strike, super volcano or the eventual supernova, at some point, it will have to leave the once safe moorings of this Idyllic planet, like christianity left the Holy land.
The challenge will be whilst doing this, not turning the endeavour into a future Tower of Babel, a sense of wonder and the transcendent God will be more important than ever.
I suspect, the limitlessness of space will strike awe, to the faithful Astronaut.
I wonder why there is a bunch of English cradle Protestants (Martin shaw is another) turning to the Eastern Orthodox Church. Why not the Catholic Church?
Paul touched on that: ...to follow the heart, not the head/mind.
English cradle Roman Catholics like myself are also turning to it
Karma dear Paul, karma. A past life connected to early irish monks maybe? You have to be open to the possibility...