Discussing Dominion with Tom Holland
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 พ.ค. 2024
- Tom Holland is a best selling author who's recent book "Dominion" has been making waves in the post-secular crowd because it examines the Christian frame by which even atheists and anti-theists motivate their actions.
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I was clicked baited by Spider-Man, but got this gem instead.
#metoo
Same haha
Did the thumbnail change? I am confused
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That's hilarious! I kept getting compared to this guy for my mild atheistic views on Christianity... Then discovered there's a spiderman actor of the same name.
I choose to believe that my miniscule Twitter activism helped make this interview happen, and not that Jonathan has sufficient reach to get Holland without me.
I choose to believe that too, so thank you sir :)
@@milesmungo it's an honor to serve this community
Looks like I'll be buying his children's book too! So excited for this conversation!
Would love to see hear your commentaries on the conversation in a live video!
Holland: "You're Eastern Orthodox, aren't you?"
Pageau: *giggles* "yuh"
Pageau ‘s laughter is a symbol of his holy joy. I love it.
I truly hope the church listens to the yearning within the culture for a return to everything that Christianity once meant to ordinary people. It has spent too long bowing to its own embarrassment and fear of offending people that through the attempt to not be 'weird' or off-putting, it has forgotten the sublime truth and perfect beauty that Christ alone offers.
So what you’re saying is you want to beat gay people again without worrying about the consequences
@@SirArthurTheGreat protect the weak, recognize the borders, that’s the lesson of modernity
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Holland in the dark and Pageau in bright light? What's the symbolism of that?
The cave and the light
For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Yin and Yang. And the uniting energy is Christian faith, in this case.
Since you ask.
So glad this is public. I have wanted this conversation for years. I have internalized a lot of both of your work. This is a dream. 17 year old me could have used this...
PVK is compiling his analysis video as we speak :-)
He can't let that jab at sola scriptura go. By the way did you know he's a calvinist?
@@RSanchez111 I do know that. He's a Dutch Reformed (i.e. Calvinist) pastor. That's OK, I'm a Scot: we're all Calvinists ;-)
A Christian psychologist from The States, Dr Richard Beck has written a marvellous book about the devil, demons, etc for the 'disenchanted'. Next year, he'll be releasing a new book on the re-enchantment of the world after secularism. Some here may find that worthwhile based on this conversation.
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what started out slow turned into an excellent discussion. christianity is ultimately a revealed religion but any time someone attempts to make an historical or academic analysis of the religion proper or the new testament they cannot help, it seems, but to apply a kind of inductive perspective to it; thus, paul is no longer receiving revelation from christ so much as he's making some kind of intellectual discovery, beginning with a kind of holy insight within from which he has to explore the depths of his own reason and psychology to unravel the final form of the thought process. while these kinds of perspectives can be interesting, so much holy, transformative content is lost by assuming a position where christianity is just another thought system inductively pursued by the mind of man.
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Tom Holland and Jordan Peterson should chat.
"Protect the weak!" That's the heart of christianity. The christian knight is the key.
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I thought it was serve the lord
@@owenduck you are right
Lets not kid ourselves. For the best part of two thousand years the Jews (“The Christ Killers”) of Europe were pretty much in the position of the ‘weak’ living a tenuous existence amongst the ‘strong’ - a great shame Christianity didn’t do very much of that “protecting the weak” thing. As for the “Christian knight”: time to dig out a copy of Amos Oz’s “Unto Death: Crusade”.
@@scottharrison812 That's a very shallow criticism. Jews were usurers, and usury is a practice of war unfit for any kind of peace. In fact Jews are commanded by God not to use it with other Jews for that reason, so no, Jews dug their own hole when they thought they could toy with the local political class and make money off of them, violating the very rules of hospitality that then blew up on them. They were lousy squatters, never simply just innocent victims. Why should a land tolerate a foreign people who does not intermarry because they think themselves superior, does not want to integrate or obey your local laws, and practices dishonest trades to enrich themselves. Just because you're too profoundly ignorant to see that the modern world capitulated to that jewish degeneracy does not mean that you know any history, you're simply a parrot for the modern historiographical bias.
Fascinating and beautifully articulate guy, coming from such a different place but converging in so much. Brilliant conversation.
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So good! Could have listened for hours more!
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Wow. Amazing interview. Gold content. What a time to be alive.
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I'm so glad this exists, as a longtime fan of Holland's books and a new fan of Pageau's. Thanks to both of you!
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Ooo now this is a cool collaboration. Timely conversation. Thank you both.
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Dominion is a great book! I learned a lot, and it gave me many new insights. I just started In the Shadow of the Sword, after which I‘ll have read all of Holland’s books so far. Great writer!
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Wow! Two of my favourite thinkers together. How did these worlds align. I pray for Tom to have his eyes opened and his souls longing satisfied. Thank you for this interview Jonathan!
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Would love to hear you guys do this again sometime. I think theres a lot you guys could talk about and this felt more like an extended introduction to each others ideas.
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Great discussion, wonderful book and now looking forward to the PVK commentary! When JBP is able I would love to hear a discussion with all three of you!
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I suggest Tom should read, David Bradshaw - Aristotle East and West.
What Tom says at 35 min in was foreseen by Saint Palamas in his debates with Barlaam.
Fantastic conversation, thank you. Good to know there are more and more people remebering this 'Grand Pattern'. Now we need someone to succesfully articulate it / live it. But that is gonna be tough.
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So good. Loved Holland’s remarks on Bunyan and Chaucer. I recommend Tom Holland’s book on the Persian Wars, “Persian Fire”.
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looking forward to this discussion!
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Absolutely riveting. I read Dominion a while ago, its importance cannot be overstated. Tom and Johnathan, thank you.
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Wow I can't believe you got him to come on, great! Please have him on again and ask him about early Islamic history. He's helps changed a lot of people's minds about the traditional Islamic narrative.
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Beautiful discussion, thank you.
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I've been looking forward to this. YAY!
Poor tom, I think he was a bit out of his depth with what Jonathan was wanting to pull him into lol. Still just a little early in his religious journey, as he sort of admitted in the middle. Lovely conversation though!
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I like the twinkle in Tom's eye as he talks about the Marquis de Sade
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Thanks Tom and Jonathan .
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Loved this. Man I wish Tom had written about the orthodox church! Him not mentioning it in Dominion was kind of the only (minor) letdown i got from an otherwise beautiful book.
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I think the lack of appeal of secular humanism is also demonstrated by the life story of Leo Tolstoy. He rejected the divine aspects of Christ, but embraced the moral teachings of Christ and aimed to frame those moral teachings in a secular humanist context. He also turned it into a movement and developed a following dedicated to his teachings on non-violence. However, his following quickly dissipated and I do think it's because his teachings lacked a central myth holding his movement together.
What's even more interesting is that among the people who were inspired by Tolstoy are Gandhi and Martin Luther King, Jr. They found his teachings on non-violence very appealing, but reframed them in a religious context, for Gandhi a Hindu context and for MLK a Christian context. And it's exactly as Tom said, this led to near universal acceptance of MLK's civil rights movement and is still admired today, while almost nobody remembers that Tolstoy did more than just write novels.
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@@Coheirs2Heaven no, I don't think I would be.
@@RSanchez111 Your choice.
Dear Tom.... Get a camera and a mic!!
And I can't get enough of listening to him, Jonathan and conversations like this! Although I never heard Jonathan talk so little (relatively) in a video ;)
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@@Coheirs2Heaven Thank you for bringing this to my attention, but the way I see it today, it would seem his are not the only views that appear flawed. Catholicism is, to the best of my knowledge, not equal to Christianity, but a branch of it. A major one, yes, but still only one of the many.
Not every bastard in the street is the illegitimate son of the King, despite what his Mother tells him.
Not every Revolutionary who sees his pillage as inspired by Christ is walking a Christian ethos.
Not every would be Cicero is even worth listening to (hint)
GREAT VIDEO !!!
I've read most (not all) of Holland's book to date, and loved them all. This was a fabulous discussion. Jonathan Pageau and Tom Holland? Wow. Seriously, where else can you get content like this?
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Lovely, thank you most gentle men.
Wonderful stuff
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5⭐️ Reading Tom’s Excellent book now. Re lack of spiritual power in the church today and H Potter filling the void 😞check out the other Tom book - NT Wrights book The Day the Revolution Began - Reconsidering the Meaning of Jesus Crucifixion even the first 100 pages. Both Toms have been in conversation together on Unbelievable’s podcast. Thank you SO much for this!
Thanks
Tom Holland is a true Heavyweight Champ. Thanks for this exhibition!
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Christ never told the poor to rise up in bloody revolution. The French and Russian revolutions have nothing to do with the Christian Faith but rather a distortion of, perversion of, and misunderstanding of the Christian Faith, which is Holy Orthodoxy.
That being said, I love Tom Holland's book Persian Fire and The Rubicon. Amazing reads. My favorite history books ever.
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23:07 Or maybe it's us who are not certain what St Paul is about
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The affable Tom is seemingly,through truly fabulous erudition ,leading himself and many others back ...
Loved you in Spider Man
I'll let myself out...
Love listening to Tom
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34:30 Interestingly enough, St. Gregory Palamas prophesied this exact thing that Tom mentions from Dostoevsky. Latin Christianity did collapse into atheism.
@TFEA To the extent that what you say is true, it's largely because those things have been imported from the West (whether via communism or general socio-political trends, etc). They are not homegrown in the way they are in non-Orthodox, Western nations.
@TFEA I mean geographically. Geographically and historically Communism emerges from the Western half of Europe.
@TFEA It's not just Jews, though. Communism and the various other influences which have been infecting our world, and the circumstances that made their spread possible wouldn't have been in place if Western Christendom's erosion and negative influence hadn't left space for them to, and the point is that Latin Christendom eroded from within because of fundamental errors.
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Thanks for this!
I have a question on your theory that we are seeing the opposites pull apart...
I get the Social Justice movement == de-incarnation. That makes sense.
But where do we find its opposite today? Which group hosts the opposing pole, the "will-to-power rising up"?
Love it!
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What is the name of the Norman church in London Tom refers to at 48:34
Found it!
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Bartholomew-the-Great
Wow, Spidey really let himself go...
But you have got to give it to him, his American accent in the Avengers movies is on point.
@@dirtpoorrobins The best part is both Tom Hollands are British with English Accents
It’s a fantastic book. He’s a great writer.
I’ve been waiting with baited breath for this one
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I'm coming to this conversation late, but i wonder if Pageau has read Heiser's Unseen Realm.
They certainly seem to be plowing the same field, whether they know it or not.
Time to re-read dominion!
Don Quichote and Dulcinea is the best example how the knight fights for the weak, funny knights of the present world.
The pattern of fascism is very interesting. If Merkel drew from the parable of the good Samaritan, then Hitler and other post-revolutionary dictators often drew from the parable of Christ separating the sheep and the goats. They supplant this to race, nation, sexuality, ideology instead of faith and works. Christ the judge is also not 'of the world', but He came into it. Likewise Napoleon, Hitler, and Stalin were all born outside, or on the border of, the nations they judged and ruled. I think Jonathan discussed this already in a Q&A.
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Not sure if you would read this Tom or Jonathan, but I wanted to comment on Tom's point at 23:10 of Paul's dramatic monologues. I attend a Messianic Jewish Yeshiva and your response reminded me of my professors (Dr. John Fischer; who's also the President of the UMJC) analysis though with a somewhat different twist. He said they are akin to Rabbinic Responsa. Remember fellas, Paul was a Pharisee and was reaching out to synagogues and Gentiles in the Diaspora. While that isn't quite a dramatic monologue, it does have similarity, and I think is more contextually correct.
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We all need a permanent seminar adding N. N. Taleb.
Here from a Chris Williamson interview with Louise Perry, who recommended Holland's book.
I was hoping for Spidey
I hope pageau knows there are real angels and devils not just abstractions of places. They are individual beings, pure spirit of a higher order than us
@TFEA since I’ve watched this videos I’ve seen more of his where he makes it clear that he does. I think he just emphasizes this point to make connections with people who don’t believe in anything that’s not purely material. I guess he’s more interested in the first step towards belief than in the full faith in most of his videos. Which is needed today, but not quite how I think/communicate.
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Nice.
26:16 he's been reading NT Wright - pretty sure that depth charge idea about Paul is his.
Listen to his conversation on unbelievable with Tom Wright and Justin Brierley. Holland makes the depth charge comment and Wright mutters “very interesting” under his breath 😂
@@vroomvroomcarnong oh, yes, that's right! Thanks!
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Bon appetit!
"i finished the *BOOK A WEEK AGO* ..." Appreciate this, Jonathan!
Am thinking of buying it but his last was very very overwordy and flowery, is this the same?? Thanks
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41:32-41:50 interesting that Tom Holland sees this so clearly. I would wager that this is why orthodox Christianity is making a comeback.
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The story of Jesus is so simple, people find it too difficult to just do what Jesus said to do. He said FOLLOW ME . Too simple for educated people. It’s hard to love unlovable people, it is much easier to live your Christian life within a church society where everyone appreciates the same values as yourself. Jesus asks us to share our faith with people who don’t want Him. I feel Jesus will confront others in their need through their life. I cannot be responsible for others, because Christ will do the transformation as we live our lives following Him. I have enjoyed listening to this conversation. I am a Christian of over forty years and still cry when I take the body and blood of Christ. Thank you. .
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🙏🏼
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Jonathan, when will you write your own book?
He doesn't write. He sculpts. Doesn't do glass work either.
I love listening to Tom... I always feel like the smoldering kindling pile of nihilism within me might bust into flames if I listen to him too long tho lol
Interesting Synchronicity... Trump is having issues with Dominion Voting Systems causing glitches in the 2020 presidential election, at the very same time this video was published. Gotta love this symbolic universe
Best video on youtube.
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My only complaint here was that it was too short...I wish Jonathan & Tom brought up Judaism as it relates to stories and iconography and despite the fact it has a aversion to overt imagery it certainly has stood the test of time and hasn't been (de)sacred'ized ...esp among the orthodox & ultra orthodox. Maybe for another program. Love the channel.
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Awesome glad your two meet. Good choice to invite and to accept guys
You should get Tim O'Neill on as well
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Ha, just saw the fb post! haha
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first" (2 Thessalonians 2:3). He then proceeds to explain this "falling away" in greater detail. Those interested in the signs of the end times often take note of a warning given by Paul to the Thessalonians, speaking about the return of Jesus Christ to earth.
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In anglo tales knights convert people by recognising the eggs and cabbish, not stones..., heat by the food, as recognising the food of his mother...
Great! Thank you 😇
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What's with the IDW's fascination with Hellenism? How come supposed Christians are so entralled with guys like this that are so fascinated by the pantheon?
You should listen more to tom's journey, look at his conversation on Reset for example. His story is exactly the kind of conversion we want to see away from modernism, you shouldn't be so quick to lump him in with the goats just because he's in the middle of his migration.
Edit: speak life I mean th-cam.com/video/favILmUsVdg/w-d-xo.html
It's not the pantheon they are excited about. It's understanding symbols and patterns of reality.
I think its because the ancient Greeks are so critical in western canon. They're like the original founding fathers lol
Lol I thought this was about the voting software
MUCH Better than that, Patriots
Isn't the point of christianity that human hierarchies will inherently fail and lead to the suffering of the weak, but God's order sees the tyrant as weak and downtrodden as strong? And if we want to live like Jesus we should live to serve those who cannot serve us? Love thy enemy and what not. I'm mostly asking because I'm surprised this is up for debate?
You would be amazed at the level of ignorance that's common among even life-long practicing Christians. For example, my 85-year-old mother-in-law told me that it had never before occurred to her to consider what God would want her to do rather than what she herself wanted. That, after a lifetime of church attendance. Another elderly lady told me that she had just heard about the concept of original sin! These people don't know the first thing about their own supposed faith, even after sitting in a pew every Sunday for 80 years. It boggles my mind.
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@@edennis3202 Wow yeah that's all too common. That's what happens when Christianity is treated like a family tradition and not a divine revelation.
Tom, please go visit Alwyn at Calvary Chapel London! B & C Col 3:1-4
Came for Spiderman, stayed for Tom Holland
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Truly, a deeper reading of the crucifixion would show that the focus is not around Christ's perceived economy; as opposed to the status of the Sanhedron, but God's mercy.
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👍
Thought it concerned the election
im so fkn jealous of jonathans hair
Spider-sense was tingling...
Can’t wait for Tom to write something on Orthodoxy!
Sorry to put a negative reply up, but Tom Holland rather reminds me why I left Anglicanism. It seems all a bit liberal, a bit like secularized Christianity.
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35:00 to 38:20
18:47
So are angels their own being as we are orrr
Are Tom and Jonathan claiming that Atheism comes from Christianity? But weren't the Epicureans Atheist? Maybe not pure Atheists, but enough so to credit them with the origin of Atheism rather than Christianity?
From wikipedia page on Atheism:
The most important Greek thinker in the development of atheism was Epicurus (c. 300 BCE). Drawing on the ideas of Democritus and the Atomists, he espoused a materialistic philosophy according to which the universe was governed by the laws of chance without the need for divine intervention (see scientific determinism). Although Epicurus still maintained that the gods existed, he believed that they were uninterested in human affairs.
No, that's not the claim. The claim is that the atheists in the Western world are Christian atheists in some way. All their presuppositions about morality have deep Christian roots which they take for granted. More like that humanism in the Western world is basically Christianity with all of the supernatural elements removed.
I saw another discussion in which he goes deeper into this.
Also Peterson touched upon this in his discussion with Harris.
@@Alnivol666 no, I think the claim is deeper than you are saying. That humanism comes from Christianity is obvious. But they claim and I suspect they are right,that Atheism itself is a point along a trajectory that started with the Jewish belief in a single God rather than many. Next, the Reformation abolished a lot of spiritual meaning attached to things, also the Enlightenment and the Deist idea of a clockwork God arose. From there it is only a small step to Atheism. But I still wonder where the ancient Greeks such as the Epicureans fit into that picture.
@@haraldwolte3745 I think disbelief in the supernatural predates Christianity to be honest. There are even atheistic religions out there. It is important to separate strands of atheism based on the culture where they arose.
The atheism of somebody living in the 16th century for example came via different routes than an atheist living today. Take the 17th century born Jean Meslier for example.
Today's atheism has delved into scientism quite a bit. A lot of atheists use the authority of science as a substitute for a divine authority without giving too much thought about it.
@@Alnivol666 I think the second half of your comment is probably true, but not the first. The very concept of a supernatural/natural divide is probably the result of The Enlightenment. The premodern world saw all things infused with inherent meaning, but the scientific worldview sundered them which is the crack that allows Atheism in thesymbolicworld.com/articles/how-the-scientific-revolution-changed-our-worldview/
@@haraldwolte3745 Sure. It is very hard for a modern person to even imagine how the pre-modern societies saw reality. So even if you are talking about atheism in pre-modern societies it is much different than any instance of atheism in modern societies. But I do think that atheism has been around since forever to be honest. How it manifested itself can be debated.
And yes...we in the West do like to put things in very precise boxes. Like even the way we define religion is euro-centric. Non-Westerb cultures do not see these clear demarcations that we in the West have built to describe things.
He spoke with Spodermon???
NOT SPODERMON!!!
Excellent conversation, very much enjoyed it.
If I'm reading the tea-leaves correctly, then psychedelic culture could be the very thing that brings about the 'resurrection' of Christianity. What the west has lost is immediate contact with 'spirit', and psychedelics have the capacity to bring that back. They can help us remember that the 'spark of divinity' is in all of us, even our enemies. I'm hoping that the Church starts to pay serious attention as psychedelic therapy becomes more mainstream, because there will be many many people who have had life-altering experiences but no context to set them in. It will also be a test for the Church, which has often demonized instead of loved that which it does not understand.
It is likely that the divinity students who become the pastors and priests of the Church in the future will have psychedelics use as an initiation into holy rites. Who better to lead the church than those who have experienced beatific vision?
To that end, I would highly recommend "The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name" by Brian C. Muraresku as a worthy follow up to Dominion. Listening to these 2 books back to back has made for a most enlightening summer / fall season.
Thank you again Jonathan and Tom for a great conversation. It is a joy to see the spirit move in the west again.
Be careful with unearned wisdom
-some lobster
@@papercut7141 Absolutely! Every technology has the possibility of tremendously helping and tremendously hurting.
Be careful with fire, be careful with nuclear power, be careful with computers and cell phones, be careful with guns.
But don't be afraid of these things either - don't let fear stop you from slaying your particular dragon.
--all the lobsters waiting for the hero to rescue their fathers.
You should check out Jonathon's interview with Owen Cyclops. He used to involve himself with psychedelics but has converted to Christianity and is vehemently against them.
@@emmagrace6396 It happens - not everyone has the same path through life.
For many, psychedelics become escapism, but it is impossible to separate reality into 'good' and 'bad'. It is all in our use / perception of reality.
I think for many, psychedelics are a very good thing - overwhelmingly positive and spiritual. That comes in part from our approach to them. Do we consider it a party enhancer, or a sacrament? It is not wise to profane the sacred.
We should not make the mistake of generalizing one person's experience to everyone's. If you approach it as a healing tool (say for mental illnesses like depression and anxiety), they can be hugely beneficial. If you approach it like wanting to understand divinity (like the Marsh Chapel Experiment) then it is likely you will have a mystical experience and contact with the divine.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment
We do have some huge remnants of puritanism in America which have caused us to forget 'spirit' and treat the unknown as presumed evil. That is the mentality that needs to change, this endless fear of 'the other'.
It is especially strange since psychedelics affect consciousness - that which 'you are'. It makes no sense to be afraid to explore yourself, your 'being', to turn the eyes inwards and re-discover what we are made of beyond flesh and bone. My encouragement is to stop living in ignorance about that and do something to find out - whether prayer / fasting / meditation, or psychedelics, or holotropic breathwork - some sort of practice. What better use of time than to learn about what we are? Is there any discovery out there in 'reality' that could be more important? I'd rather be ignorant of something 'out there' than ignorant of the no-thing 'in here'. People's priorities are backwards...
@@brentonbrenton9964 just check the guy out. He's extremely insightful