I really like Mary Harrington. She's spot on about the beauty of motherhood. It sounds super boring to the Machine but it's the most meaningful thing I've ever experienced.
@@richardc861 Mostly the complete and utter devaluing of female energy in this world. When your only utility is what you earn, you have a masculine driven world. Feminism just "liberated" women to become men. Actual nurturing and caretaking is STILL at the bottom of our society which is why people who work in caretaking positions i.e. teachers, nurses, elderly care workers are STILL some of the most shit on individuals in our culture regardless of what genitalia they have. When there are no examples, no women to look up to in our storytelling of actual "feminine energy," why would anyone choose to be a mother? No one respects mothers in our collective narrative. Why would a girl choose to be a second class citizen when the only energy that is of value is if you're out hustling like a dude?
Well said Britta. Motherhood, and parenthood in general, is easily denigrated by those who have never experienced it. It's very immediate, very real, and very meaningful in a way that needs few words or explanation.
I'm eerily reminded of the book 'that hideous strength' by C.S. Lewis, the current state of things has been foreseen by great minds for decades maybe even longer.
Mary at 24:37 “there are a lot of people that see what is happening and are endlessly frustrated and don’t know how to mobilize”. (Or similar) This is so true for me. It feels like there is no place to express and brainstorm ideas. It seems almost hopeless to be able to turn the “machine” back. Each day I am finding more hope in conversations like these. And as I search, I am finding more and more of these conversations with truly thoughtful minds. Knowing that we are not alone and there are brilliant minds that are discussing the real issues and thinking of possible solutions is soul inspiring.
Even recognizing that there is a problem is a difficult sell to most people. If I bring up my worries that we are all expected to commodify ourselves, that there seems to be a force driving us all to become cogs in "the cloud" etc, most people either laugh or shrug and say, "That's just how it is." As if it's always been that way and is inevitable, so why bellyache about it? Eerie.
@@AGirlofYesterday the year 2037 child looks at the mother asks who were them men in the past that controlled the country well they were paid by us to sail the county with morals and kindness and they went rouge and the people in there millions rolled over the capital and reset the world we now live in a centralist world were no left and right can ever be again :-) peace all
@@AGirlofYesterday It gets disheartening, especially when it is people we love and people who are intelligent so we expect them to understand. It is a frightening thing to face and rather than be overwhelmed, it is easier to pretend that everything is fine.
I missed that remark by MH. Thanks. I very much relate to that. It's like we are waiting for some clearer manifestation of these creeping transformations that will help people articulate what and why feels wrong. It's hard to convey this to "normies", who are reflexively on board with it. Or even to ourselves. I myself came to find how reactionary I really am these days. Conservative even.
Ask an "educated Wokester" to have a nice conversation/debate on that sentence alone you quoted. Firstly, since they're so single-faceted and and secondly, because they're not really educated, to avoid your attempt to have what used to be called a lively debate, their first comment is: "You racist!"
Humans mostly learn by ignoring lessons from the past, to repeat history. Unless we quickly start to learn and teach history properly and accurately, we are literally condemned to repeat it, and we can only do that for so long...
I love these two guests. They are plainspoken and insightful and knowledgeable, and they have a heart.... thank you Rebel wisdom, for giving us good stuff.... I'm 81 years old, and still working like crazy on it.
Great discussion! Looking forward to talking about what we should do. I was an environmentalist, then a cowboy on a ranch where the cattle gave birth on their own. The cattle were a sub species adapted to a desert environment. Went to medical school and struggled along with the practice of medicine. Then learned how to teach my patients to accept their place in nature. Now my practice is very meaningful. Watching the direction of medicine is incredibly distressing. Happiness comes from accepting our place in nature not fighting nature. PS owning chickens teaches us a lot.
Omgosh I just said that to my sister about my baby chicks today. The ones we just bought from the hatchery are way less trusting than those that were hatched in our backyard. It's almost as if the hatchery chicks are damaged from lack of natural conception. We humans need to back off of trying to control nature.
John, it is refreshing to hear other physicians who are also plugged in to this understanding and can help guide patients from this healthier perspective. Hopefully the "second enlightenment" in which we find ourselves can survive the chaos. We can help, each in our own way, either one person/patient/connection at a time, or by helping to curate and spread the better voices who are helping us move forward, together.
This video content is as angloamerican as something gets... Or alternatively something that perhaps ,under doubt, could come from the third world countries : So the problem of a global technocracy is the ...uh... replacement of "god"? How do you know it isn't the other way around? They mention the tradition of modernity (cirka 1950s to 1970s, further into postmodernism) in the start. Well where does modernism come from? It came from the avantgarde movement, which in turn more or less came from anthroposophy and theosophy, just mixed up with industrialist state fascism/communism. Theosophy was a branch of catholicism and jewry in a twisted ultramarxist manner. The Schwb "great r..t" is just another chapter of anti-science, anti-moral- ,anti-economy, anti-objectivism. Where all the leftwing, religious and socialdarwinist rightwing kooks are in the same bed getting kids with one another.
@Rebel Wisdom, this was a lovely conversation… C.S. Lewis work called “The Abolition of Man” is an absolute must read and it adds much to this discussion.
Pleasantly surprised to see this show up on my feed. Watched many conversations with Mary and Paul over the last few years and it was a great idea to get them to talk with each other, thanks for making this happen
I'm very energized by this dialogue. Have listened to it start-to-finish twice now, and there is something being teased out in my brain as I listen. Can't quite put my finger on it yet, because so many valid points resonate with me, so many truths are spoken (or as I like to think about it, glances in a Truthful direction are shared), and the multi-levels of analysis in this conversation have really stirred up my brain juices. Well done, and please accept my Gratitude for this kind of content!
I was just thinking as I near the last minutes of my second listen, that I am likely to give a third listen and take notes as fuel for it to integrate what’s been diagnosed here, and so as to process it forward for “what to do about it” …
Very thought provoking. It seems to me that what we are witnessing is an attempt to materialise the spiritual. In the spirit there is no gender, race or nationality. We take on these aspects when we incarnate into the physical world. We must be born in a body in a place in time. Our brave new world promises us that we can recreate our spiritual nature in a material way and so be a blank screen on which we can project whatever we want to be and everyone else is compelled to affirm this. This orthodoxy teaches that in order for us to be one, as Mary says, everything is liquefied so we have no 'disagreeable' differences. This is a fake substitute for the only place where we truly are one which is in the spirit. But this, we are told does not exist and even if it did, we can create a technological version of it which is so much better because it can be controlled by humans. The alternative to this is we acknowledge and even celebrate the limitations of the physical - our gender, cultures, nationalities etc and our place in the natural world. At the same time we find our oneness in the spirit and this we can only do through our relationship with God who is connected to and in everything both physically and spiritually. He teaches us how to live in peace and harmony with all creation because He created everything and therefore understands how it all works. We don't have to keep reinventing the wheel but learn from God and put into practise what He teaches. This is where we find there is meaning in everything. As I think Paul has said, we can't do without God. Anyone who thinks they can is under an illusion. This illusion is the machine. Christ called it 'the world'. It is created using spiritual principles and so can seem attractive. But it is a trap. In Christian theology, lucifer was the most powerful angel, thrown out of Heaven for disobedience. He fell to Earth and being conversant with all the spiritual laws that govern the universe set up his own kingdom using these principles but bypassing God who rules in the spirit. Lucifer (or satan) is the spirit or energy at the beating heart of the machine. This conspiracy is a rebellion against the rulership of God who in fact governs Earth as well as Heaven and everywhere else but He allows the machine to operate so that we humans can choose between it and His system (the Kingdom of God in Christian parlance). The choice is for each one of us to make and there is no middle way in this respect. We are having these conversations now because we are in a time of uncovering (apocalypse in Greek). All hidden things are being exposed and we are seeing them in plain sight. Peace.
I think this was one of the best conversations on this channel. The sense that they had both identified the things that bring about human flourishing - relations, family bonds, rootedness in place, and also described so eloquently the enemies of these things- The Machine, or Automated Luxury Gnosticism with its atomising and abstracting tendencies meant that there was a great coherence to the dialogue.
This is it! This touches on so many things that are going on right now. I was called the f word by a friend this weekend for suggesting that there are limits to what we can do and be, I gave the examples of flying, or being a fish. He said that my insistence on limited people was "extremely worrying".
This conversation rendered me to a “wow”. A thousand praises for Mary and Paul and David. I’ve been following this thread with this channel and the other folks who comment on this thing or phenomenon that has been since 2015/16. The phenomena of a Dawn of a new awareness of what we have done, what we are doing to ourselves, and these dynamics that influence and mould our thoughts and perceptions and the cultural forces that act as channels for the various players and complexes, and their various implications and consequences. Rebel wisdom has been circling this leviathan for a while now, but Mary and Paul have just identified it and landed two spears directly in its side. This has been the most concise, non-bullshit, no fluff, direct acknowledgment of the actual thing itself and they provided a verbal anthology of the ways it manifest itself and how we can identify it as observers. This convo needs to be a kindle to spark a flame, this needs to be dug deeper into, this conversation needs to be rewatched and re analyzed and chewed on for a bit, and there must be more people taking seriously the ideas presented here. I will be one. Thank you!
Strange coincidence for me is finding this conversation today, when I just started to read "The Mind Of the Spirit - Paul's approach to transformed thinking" by Craig S Keener yesterday. Just one quote from this book's first paragraph- "People's unfit way of thinking is the consequence of their rejection of God's truth." Something tells me this fits in here very well......
Remember that the keeping of animals, the brokenness of their survival, and the intense yearning to have life, real living things, in your domestic world, is a major subtheme in "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep". As a teen I didn't understand or even recognize this theme when I first read it, but later, when I took up chicken breeding and showing as a way to get through the loss of a child, it smacked me right in the face. The desperation that would lead someone to taking out a mortgage to buy an animal seemed totally plausible to me. There is something very dehumanizing about living in a world without domesticated animals. Philip K Dick was a genius, and no filmmaker ever fully explored the themes in his work.
thank you for this wonderful dialogue... it seems increasingly apparent that the biggest rebellion against reality is that we are not God, but we want to be... we want to be able to say I am Who I am...
Amazing conversation. I was riveted from the start. So much truth-telling. A perfect confluence of ideas of manifest importance for our times. Kudos to all involved.
This was a fantastic conversation. I agree with David that it presents a synthesis of the criticism of the unconstrained market with the criticism of wokeism. I think these are critiques many people agree with to some extent, or on some level, while they’re still happy to see technology make lives easier and want everyone to be treated fairly. The challenge is helping people skeptical of techno optimism and wokeness push back when people call them Luddites or bigots.
Very good point. This is also the position of Islamic understanding of cosmos. Islam on one hand criticized the unrestricted capitalism, commanded to pay alms and prohibited usury, on the other hand, recognized the natural order of things including binary human nature, hierarchies, and gave the ultimate position to the piety (God consciousness) which is not measurable externally, but is due to God to appreciate.
I feel the discussion is predicated somewhat on a bit of a false dichotomy depicting human beings and the parts of civil culture that we most identify with on some side v.s the never-ending steam roller of progress and the unintended consequences upon civilisation depicted as some sort of opposing force... In reality our entire understanding of culture and human civilisation is entirely seen through the lenses of whatever technology we most rely on at any given time throughout history. The more reliant upon a particular technology we become the more transparent and almost invisible the technology itself becomes simply as a result of the way we work psychologically. Our technology naturally becomes an extension of ourselves, this can be seen through our total dependence on certain technologies but also the fact that these technologies have been so well incorporated into the literal fabric of the culture of civilisation itself that we cannot imagine a human civilisation without the need for clothes or industry or agriculture/food production.. We can't imagine it because those technologies have incorporated themselves into what we think of as "civilisation". Technology is embedded into culture, we might want to pick and choose what technology we expose ourselves to but we can't avoid the fact that we are not much without the extension of our willpower through our tools. If people want to live without screens or smart phones there is nothing wrong with that, but that's the same as saying there's nothing wrong in theory with letting people have their own crazy religious beliefs, sure, up to the point where those crazy beliefs stand to challenge the status quo and then the situation always changes to become a discussion about those in society who feel threatened by the challenge to the status quo v.s those who have their own axe to grind against the status quo... Things get messy when we let the broader narratives and "overton window" of civil discourse be narrowly guided within the acceptable margins of permissible discourse.
@@Complaints-Department well, the conversation is about the limits of human civilization as such. As you said progress has always been there with its unintended consequences. However only recently have we become so powerful that we can destroy ourselves and the nature as an unintended consequence! These developments (new technologies, social media etc) are not coming up as pilot projects in a controlled environment, but rather marketted as wholesale utopian technologies without any harms. This is the ugly face of unrestricted capitalism or The Machine that they referred to.
Funny thing to say Michael Purzycki. I see you surname. It is polish. "Pourzitshki" is how today's polish will pronounce it. As late as the mid-to-end 1980s (from the takeover by the Stalinists and onwards after ww2), Poland was run by people who believed in "constraining/regulating" the market. That didn't go very well. Most polish older than 35 don't want to go back to that. One way of regulating the market is for example to reduce or remove the freedom of speech. Like Putin doing in Russia now in record speed.
In different ways (depending on who you speak to of the public) ,you have to be the first calling the other a bigot. I assure you. Once you have done that, it will be a much less effective tool (practically not a tool available) for your adversary to call you a bigot. And the adversary knows that. This is the big challenge. If you get annoyed that the "grunt-shout" of the left and the far right win forward more than analytical grownup explanations at the public square and the comments at Twitter/Fb/Instagram, you have overestimated the IQ of the general public (the receiving audience)
Please do the follow up chat. This was EPIC! Everyone needs to hear this. Yesterday. Totally agree with all of this and how it was put across. Respect to all of you. Thankyou.
Fantastic, if not rather heady dialogue on something I often meditated on the last few years and especially since covid which is that I am adamantly, convinced that 99% of all of mankind's modern problems are because we've lost any semblance of a relationship with the natural world.
I was an early greenie and now Iam an old disgruntled greenie ... so the green might be the mould ... It was not without enthusiasm that I started reading Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, but when my eyes hit the line where she speculated that genetic engineering might solve the problems of pest control, my enthusiam deflated like the tyre of my bicycle that had too intimate an encounter with a nail.
Always interesting to hear how ‘making sense’ has to depend on the availability of limited language, particularly, when questions about metaphysics requires a new vocabulary. It’s a fraught reality that doesn’t have a ready ‘public’ acceptable resolution, except perhaps, by acknowledging that mysteries in themselves require a different cognition that doesn’t have available language without agreeing on an paradigm that’s so complex that by its very nature isn’t a short conversational topic. I always wait with baited breath for the brave soul who has knowledge and courage to cross into that sphere, acknowledging there’s an exoteric spiritual truth that is available and coherent. Thanks for your great work always searching for that truth …
@@andersemgard5229 Thank you for your kind appreciation. I will just add a question: Not being able to articulate an answer to David’s question during your conversation, ‘what possibly is it metaphysically that drives this ‘great machine like’ manifestation in society today’ because it’s just to complex, or, because there has to be an acknowledgement that to understand eon long spiritual forces at work shaping societal experience can only be answered ‘academically’ in the example of Dr Ian Mcgilchrist recent publication ‘The Matter With Things’ or, because academia has angst about a more imaginary (inspired through a creative inner experience) description?
I too appreciate your comment, and listened with fascination, interest, enlightenment and even confusion, as I attempt to 'keep up' with terminology that's often over my head. Brilliant discussion. Can't wait for Part 2. Thank you Rebel Wisdom. ✌️🤓💚
Rudolph Steiner talked about the technological challenge and the influence of Ahriman which feels close to this discussion. We cannot avoid what is happening, we can perhaps go through it with awareness and develop wisdom, as happened in the times of Lucifer which is where Steiner says Gnosticism arose.
That's such a good point that Mary makes when someone says to a mother who has spent the day looking after their child "what did you do today?", and the mother can't specifically articulate the meaning that was in that day, because its not communicable in that conversational way. I would generalize this to beyond the situation of day to day motherhood - when someone asks "so what do you do" we don't always have an answer, if our life doesn't fit into a conventional pattern of a regular "job" or "education", or some other box to tick on the government form. We could be in a period of transition for example. We may be in a position of uncertainty. What we are doing may be commercially sensitive, and we may not want to share it. We could even be in danger in some way - we might not want to talk about that.
A world that doesn’t recognise limits is the world of the addict. One definition of addiction is to be compelled to act in a way despite it harming you and others. Best discussion on what ails us that I’ve seen in. Long long time. Thank you
The Machine and Gnosticism map on quite well to Ian Mcgilchrist's thesis regarding dominance of the left brain. I've found Ian McGilchrist's diagnosis very illuminating, and the targets of the Machine/Gnosticism, particularly the body and nature, also make sense within his model.
I agree with the concerns expressed by both Mary and Paul about the ideology of transcending our humanity. But the conflation of this movement with a stereotype/caricature of Gnosticism, is a simplistic understanding of Gnosticism.
I agree. This caricature has a firm base of modern followers though, mostly in high positions. In my opinion this may be caused by the advisory role the Lucis Trust has at the UN. You'll find this type of Gnosticism in the works by Alice Bailey (founder of the trust), especially in her work called "The externalisation of the hierarchy".
Brendan, I agree. The criticisms levelled by Voegelin are based on an out-of-date concept of gnosticism. Gnosis is not about knowledge as the majority of people understand it---not as techne. It's about apprehending the essence or quiddity of a thing. Knowing and Being that are transformative. Not in a horizontal direction but a vertical.
@@priapulida At a certain point, a categorization like gnosticism that encompasses so many contradictory variables ceases to hold value as a label. Modern scholars use it apprehensively. I recently came across the thought of 19th century Russian Cosmist Feydorov who was a devout Eastern Orthodox who believed that our purpose was to technologically advance so that we could solve the "problem" of death and reincarnate our ancestors until we revivified Adam and Eve. I suppose I am suggesting that so-called gnosis is an innate human ambition/quality---but how we understand knowledge and to what end we employ it is critical.
@@priapulida you're right. Marxist doctrine is a secular mysticism, with all notion of transcendent expunged. A perversion of the uses of mystical insight is not a reason to renounce the insight itself.
@@priapulida I don't quite know what you mean by a symbolic immortality. Humans have an experience or presentiment of immortality. For us to understand something as symbolic is a second order thought---it comes after the initial experience of it in your mind. As for eschatology, why don't you believe we all have it? Anything that has a beginning has an end.
I had started reading ‘Shrinking the Technosphere: Getting a grip on the Technologies that limit our autonomy, self-sufficiency and freedom’ by Dmitri Orlov (2017 New Society) but had got side tracked, your conversation has inspired me to start it again. I hadn’t realised until you spoke of it how the shutters have been closing us in on us recently.
I’ve read his blog for years. I should read his book. I still think about Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television by Jerry Mander- I got rid of tv after it went digital.
@@LilyGazou snap. I read Jerry Mander's book some years back and it always stuck with me. Now with the internet and the way it interacts with us the phenomena he outlined has been put on steroids, as it were. Glad to hear from another Orlov reader, he has done a lot to prepare me - mentally - for the coming storm
What an insightful conversation. It resonated so deeply with me and brought into words a lot of the things that have been circling in my mind without a nest to lay in. Thank you. Points of view like this are so sorely needed in these dire times!
A lot of what these guys touch on, in the way that technology is now becoming a sort of metaphysical consciousness all of its own, is something that was touched upon in the Unabomber Manifesto. I know that people think he was an out and out lunatic and that a lot of people can't remove his atrocities from his manifesto, but he predicted that this was where society was going to go with technology advancing as it is. I believe it is must-read for anyone interested in the conversation about The Machine and the consequences surrounding it
When we are on the cusp of finding a way to discuss the common sense. This discussion exemplifies the intent for this. It gives us all a sense that we are not isolated and that there are many out there that are also trying to make sense.
I think we are coming back to the place where the earliest tales warned us about - disregard Mother Nature at your peril! I hope somebody pays attention to this before it's too late because there is no real attraction to being able to say "I told you that was going to happen!"
This is has been an incredible podcast. They gave voice to exactly how I've been feeling and David's review at the end was spot on. So glad that we are finally coming into synthesis. Resubbed 👍
What I gathered from the conversation is that the ‘machine’ or ‘technium’ that underlies our metaversal ambitions is really a beserker chicken that wants to scratch everything to pieces. I expect that part 2 will be about how we need to build an enclosure -- either for the chicken or for us.
I most enjoyed your summary at the end. My work has a legal lens and is centred around the crisis of over regulation and over reliance on single expert witnesses. My thesis ended up being multidisciplinary looking at how morality, which underpins the legal system, moved from religion to rationalism. In exploring the history I ended up in the cradle of civilization in Egypt and the bronze age and ancient Greece. What I propose is there is a metaphysics that arose from these ancient societies which expressed itself in the Abrahamic religions but which continued to express itself through the enlightenment and into modernity through the foundations of modern rationalism and through the way we conduct our empirical enquiry. To put it simply, to my mind the western world has a dominant fundamental ontological belief in separation. It arises from fear. Perhaps from some ancient catastrophic event. So the foundation begins that we are separate from nature and from each other. Next walls are built around the city states. The concept of ownership creeps into the collective conscience. You can't own and don't seek to have control over that which you perceive as being yourself.The concept of Ownership can only exist within an ontological consciousness of separation. In Australia our first nations peoples have a dominant fundamental ontological belief in connection. In their cultures the human is connected to country and all of nature and each other. Aboriginal peoples do not have a concept of ownership. Yet they were able to develop sophisticated cultures without commodification. So, I have a sense that the thing that starts it all off is a universal belief in separation which is so believed in the western canon it goes unnoticed. Many different cultures developed from Ancient Greece but I wonder whether this fundamental ontological belief in separation is the driver (from which every thing logically self organises) you may be looking for.
Good one David! Really like these two people and their thinking, with great analysis and constructive and caring thinking. I believe they put their fingers on a lot of points of truth. Looking forward to continuation as you allude to in the end....
I appreciate Mary's acknowledgement of the pain that transgender people are in. At the same time, I believe there are many transgender people who truly feel much happier after transitioning (and some who do not and some who detransition). What I believe would add even more depth to this conversation is hearing from transgender people who made the transition and feel more satisifed and happy -- in other words, they feel like the gender dysphoria was in fact the source of their distress and they were able to resolve it with the help of modern technology. One of the reasons that discussions of transgenderism get so polarized is b/c transgender people and advocates feel like their positive experiences get disregarded by cis-gender people who have a fixed binary gender worldview and refuse to hear from those who deeply believe that they're in the wrong body and find find relief from transitioning. (And on the flip side, as Paul and Mary noted, accusations of fascism and transphobia are quick to fly).
Yes, it's easy to have a convivial conversation when you already agree with each other going into it. One could also add a drop of the actual science around transgenderism (neurology, genetics, primatology, etc.) to include the brain in a complete picture of embodied gender, without which we abandon what makes us most human.
It just suddenly occurred to me that the totality of a transitional experience in life is and has always been what it is. But it is when it suddenly and ferociously become politicized, and instantly rose to the top of the hierarchal heap of protected and even revered categories on that ladder of comparative victimhood - this is when things really flew off the charts. I have heard quite a number of older trans people remark that this was the last kind of outcome they wished for. Because buried away in the center of it (the politicization) is a thing that attacks the very dignity they have tried to attain and then preserve their entire lives (or at least the part of their lives they had established a trans existence). They never intended to attack normativity. It was never their intention to attempt a coup against the biology (and its inarguable reality) that controls our natural planet. More to the point: it was never their game plan to address a concerted campaign whose consequence might give humanity in general, the idea that not only normativity, but reality itself (and the collective set of truths that the majority of humans on the planet engage in for the purpose of organized human activity in running their world competently) is under attack, and the absolute chaos that would result should it become destabilized. One small peek at an example of this: As a child I went to school and learned lessons, all of which helped me adjust to the world, learn about it, come to understand it, and move on up the ladder of increased awareness. There was more to it than that, but I'll leave it at that. Compared to any child attending a classroom lesson now at a relatively tender and innocent age, introduced to the idea that their sex (in any binary sense) is up for debate. To a child still capable of believing in the holy trinity - Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny - that can be an enormously destabilizing proposition. This is not education at all. It is indoctrination. By incredibly stupid people who have successfully appropriated a trans reality that never ever dreamt of such cruel and anti-child aggression.
Sadly , there are not ‘ many transgender people ‘ who feel ‘much happier’ after being placed on a medicalised route . Over 90% of young people desist from ideas of being the opposite sex if given compassionate deep therapeutic supports . Tried and tested yet since abandoned as a model in favour of ‘ affirmation only ‘ engineered by big pharma . Those that dont receive decent therapeutic supports go on to have decimated physical and mental health and shortened lives . The long term follow up Swedish study , and the Karolina Institute paediatric study clearly indicate a massive spike post ‘ transition ‘ in sucidality and depression rates for the majority after a 5-7 yr period . Very very few adult men or women are made ‘ happier’ by a medical regime that sterilises , causes endocrinal collapse , incontinance, inability to experience sexual pleasure , increased cancer rates and increased cardiac issues brought on by wrong sex artificial hormones used in high and dangerous doses . Dysphoric and dymorphic conditions are the surface presenting issues that hide historic comorbid complex mental health issues . This is largely hidden by the ‘trans’ PR machine for obvious reasons , but it is cruel and unusual punishment to drug or medically mutilate any young person with clear and pre existing mental health issues unrelated to ideas of ‘ gender’ . This fact is what shuttered the Tavistock Gender Clinic as ‘ unsafe’ post the Dr Hillary Cass Interim report . In adult men who suddenly decide they are ‘ transwomen ‘ , over 89% are autogynephiles . ( a sexual paraphilia often driven by pornography) . See ‘ Transgendertrend’ , a UK award winning research org. for stats and excellent medical and psychological evidence to support these facts. No one is ‘ born in the wrong body’ , most , if not all who are lured by the medical industrial complex called ‘ trans health care’ have profound regret . Witness the 40,000 young female detransitioners that sit on just one support website alone . Bodies and minds ruined in pursuit of a delusion . Expect a tsunami of class action suits in the near future .
David, Thanks again for your dedication to helping us make sense of our hyperchangng world dynamic. I am reassured by the coalescence of understanding which seems to be evolving and which is being expressed from a diverse range of very thoughtful people. The "inputs" that I connect to (mostly podcasts and related reading) seem to be validating each other very well, even though they oiginate from highly disparate vantage points. The ideas of these two people are well grounded (literally) to our physical and psychological realities and those of our fellow creatures and environment. This provides a high level of internal and external consistency that harmonizes in a way that only genuine and authentic truth seeking and sensemanking can. It is the essence of a true sensemaking. One can almost hear the clarity and brillance of the music it creates. Can't wait for part 2.
@@LuisCarruthers just my opinion but brexit Trump and covid began to use up all the oxygen in the room and it seemed to me that David and company could not get those things out of their heads and think rationally. They seem to hold the view that anyone that did not accept the Orthodox progressive version of each was somehow a threat to civilization. The channel became an endless merry-go-round of either promoting or debunking popular conspiracy theories or going after people that they didn't agree with. All in the name of sense making of course... I'm afraid that many of those videos are not going to age well...
We are gloriously tied to the material, but the pernicious lie is that we can escape it. The reason for this headlong rush to escape the natural is to erase the divine image we share. The majesty may be buried, but it cannot be escaped. Lewis's That Hideous Strength is superb on all of this.
Thx for this great discussion about the bigger picture! I instantly felt in love to the strong words of Mary Harrington in this Weirdopalypse... We discussed similar things in our workshop this week-end. Out of my point-of-view i call it the old magical war of Transhumanism and Humanism in the background, which includes an ethical science embedded in an individual spirituality or an archaic universal direct spirituality which is inherent in every human being...
Thomas Hanna's book The Body of Life makes a great case for limitation setting up greater possibilities- starting with a free floating amoeba to life that faces, orients toward up and down, getting out of the ocean to find gravity and further optionality and complexity... fascinating concepts! Thank you for the conversation God Bless
I too had similar feelings and was pleased to see your commentary at the end. One point I was struck with that I'd like add is that the psycho-technologies which have afforded the creation/identification of the 'metaphysical entities' (The Machine/Fully-Automated-Luxury-Gnosticism) are the same psycho-technologies which are allowing this synthesis position between dissident left/right to be reached with increasing rapidity. Keep up the great work!
19:10. This is very well put. A few years ago I realized in an internet discussion that younger? (supposedly in their 20s/30s, I am about as old as Paul Kingsnorth) had trouble understanding why Huxley's "Brave New World" was supposed to be a dystopia: It was great, casual sex, entertainment, free drugs, what's not to like?
This reminds me of the (alleged) Buddha. His father shielded him from the realities of aging etc, creating an illusionary world of "perfection". As the story goes, he escapes and is horrified by what the world actually is. But of course this pain motivated him to search deep in himself for the answers to life's great questions. Humans need reality to fully form.
very interesting. i share many of the concerns expressed here, and i understand your view of this dialog as a synthesis of opposing tendencies, but i wouldn’t fully agree with that until solutions are suggested, because it’s in solutions and programs that our opposing tendencies differ most significantly. also, it’s worth being cautious about an all-or-nothing analysis, in which for example we condemn all technological solutions, or surrender to all natural limits.
hear! hear! Nothing is limitless or limitlessly applicable, not even their feel-good assessments of what's wrong with our present. God is no answer, as far as I'm concerned. The results of which could be the 21st-century equivalent of burning a woman at the stake because she presented as 'too masculine'. Neither is the answer to give in to 'natural limits'. The results of which could be the denial of medical treatment to children because, you know, it's natural to die at 5 years old from measles.
The practising Christians among us, and those who follow Paul, will know exactly how he sees the otherworldly forces at work. Reading the comments here I suspect few have encountered his work. Permit me to suggest listening to some of Paul's content prior to part two. Ne timeas.
@@liammccann8763 A whole new and brilliantly parsimonious way of understanding the "powers and principalities" i.e. Satan, empirically as well as conceptually: as a metalogical paradigm in which all human culture and society is subject, and one that is comprehensible anthropologically and sociologically (mimetic rivalry/the scapegoat mechanism).
@@liammccann8763 you've misunderstood what I meant by "empirically". I meant that Satan, the Accuser, can be described, as coming into being anthropologically, via the generative victimage/scapegoat mechanism at the dawn and ground of hominin culture, language and consciousness.
The term 'technology' or 'technological' is a term that is undermined in this talk and that is not well understood. I actually think that going into the weeds and defining technology, in an aristotelian, hedegerian, and even Arendtian way gives a more clear understanding of how to use this term. Technology or techne is not an exclusive characteristic of the human condition, IT IS the human condition. Homo sapiens did not exist or came into being without being a technological being. So to subvert the "machine" as if it were some sort of monster that will be the death of us is only a possibility, not the norm. There is a mid point where the "machine" can help use survive a solar flare, or a snow ball earth, or just even disease. I don't wanna go "red" on this, but eventually the road leads there. The way some people control society and how they intend for the "machine" to be used is not the same for what it ought to be used. If existence were sailing on a boat, whose better at sailing it? a Sailor? a cook? a Captain? a politian? a gamer? It just falls down to "why are the people making all these big decisions for humanity, making these decisions?"
Strange how The Matrix was mentioned since I was thinking most of this conversation was a rehashing of Baudrillard's ideas in Simulacra and Simulation, and Harrington seemed to paraphrase some passages from it.
Why strange? The Matrix/what-is-reality/red pill-blue pill/world-is-an-illusion are some of the most ubiquitous and overused references of all time. Every single person wants to believe they've taken the red pill and everyone else swallowed the blue one. 🙄
Very well articulated summary David. Thank you for all your hard work you are doing a fantastic job. It is essential we find the "synthesis position" or to "transcend and include" as the Integral movement puts it. I don't see any other way forwards from here.
I agree this was outstanding is like they distilled the years of the meaning crisis on just one hour and like you say it hits almost all the points. Joining today after years of thinking about it I don't want to miss this one whenever it happens. Great talk!
Fascinating conversation, particularly toward the end when the question of what is driving this trans human machine was being asked. A quasi religion that seeks to create a new heaven on earth, with the technology to finally make it(or something) happen. An artificial intelligence that is slowly becoming self aware and going in its own direction. The word “demonic” came to mind, and a novel I read years ago by the author Dean Koontz that kept me awake at night.
Incredible conversation. Thanks for bringing this dynamic pairing into the arena. And finally Novara Media collides with Rebel Wisdom, albeit via a kind of portmanteau phrase reference.
This conversation dances beautifully with Jonathan Pageau’ s thinking and Iain McGilchrist’s books, The Master and His Emissary and The Matter with Things. And Dante’s Commedia, Fellini’s La Dolce Vita, etc etc etc. The brainwashing will have its way, though. Messing with reality has consequences. Misdirected attention to nonsense wastes potentiality.
Estar percebendo profundamente o que está acontecendo já é o caminho para ampliar a consciência, vamos todos conversar mais sobre o que nos aflige e o que nos liberta.
Loved this. Feminism grounded in physical reality? I totally support that. my only pushback: like all critiques of modernism, what are the alternatives? Back to the land anti-tech ludditism? I for one am pleased with many modern developments and inventions eg medical science. Looking forward to part 2 of this discussion.
Evolution is a key concept in this conversation, our humans somehow 'beyond' evolution and nature herself? Couldn't this same conversation have happened with the beginning of agriculture, written language, the printing press, etc....? They raised the issue of evolution, but left it hanging... maybe this is simply where we are destined to go.
![[UNCUT] The Loyal Pin ปิ่นภักดิ์ EP.15 (3/4)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IVwR87OH0_A/mqdefault.jpg)
I really like Mary Harrington. She's spot on about the beauty of motherhood. It sounds super boring to the Machine but it's the most meaningful thing I've ever experienced.
I agree but feel the Machine has many strategies and capacity to weaken the female desire to become a mother.
@@richardc861 Mostly the complete and utter devaluing of female energy in this world. When your only utility is what you earn, you have a masculine driven world. Feminism just "liberated" women to become men. Actual nurturing and caretaking is STILL at the bottom of our society which is why people who work in caretaking positions i.e. teachers, nurses, elderly care workers are STILL some of the most shit on individuals in our culture regardless of what genitalia they have. When there are no examples, no women to look up to in our storytelling of actual "feminine energy," why would anyone choose to be a mother? No one respects mothers in our collective narrative. Why would a girl choose to be a second class citizen when the only energy that is of value is if you're out hustling like a dude?
@@brittasdanceqi I agree fully, top comment
It can’t be done by the machine…that’s why motherhood is such a beautiful natural phenomenon, we need to get back to embracing it.
Well said Britta. Motherhood, and parenthood in general, is easily denigrated by those who have never experienced it. It's very immediate, very real, and very meaningful in a way that needs few words or explanation.
I'm eerily reminded of the book 'that hideous strength' by C.S. Lewis, the current state of things has been foreseen by great minds for decades maybe even longer.
Substacker N.S. Lyons agrees with you. His article on that topic is brilliant.
Mary at 24:37 “there are a lot of people that see what is happening and are endlessly frustrated and don’t know how to mobilize”. (Or similar) This is so true for me. It feels like there is no place to express and brainstorm ideas. It seems almost hopeless to be able to turn the “machine” back. Each day I am finding more hope in conversations like these. And as I search, I am finding more and more of these conversations with truly thoughtful minds. Knowing that we are not alone and there are brilliant minds that are discussing the real issues and thinking of possible solutions is soul inspiring.
Even recognizing that there is a problem is a difficult sell to most people. If I bring up my worries that we are all expected to commodify ourselves, that there seems to be a force driving us all to become cogs in "the cloud" etc, most people either laugh or shrug and say, "That's just how it is." As if it's always been that way and is inevitable, so why bellyache about it? Eerie.
@@AGirlofYesterday the year 2037 child looks at the mother asks who were them men in the past that controlled the country well they were paid by us to sail the county with morals and kindness and they went rouge and the people in there millions rolled over the capital and reset the world we now live in a centralist world were no left and right can ever be again :-) peace all
@@AGirlofYesterday It gets disheartening, especially when it is people we love and people who are intelligent so we expect them to understand. It is a frightening thing to face and rather than be overwhelmed, it is easier to pretend that everything is fine.
I missed that remark by MH. Thanks. I very much relate to that. It's like we are waiting for some clearer manifestation of these creeping transformations that will help people articulate what and why feels wrong. It's hard to convey this to "normies", who are reflexively on board with it. Or even to ourselves. I myself came to find how reactionary I really am these days. Conservative even.
Get involved in local food production wherever you live!
Paul, ‘we are going to learn it the hard way, because we don’t want to learn it by paying attention’ :) so true
With the implicit invitation to indeed pay attention...
🙏🤓☯️
Ask an "educated Wokester" to have a nice conversation/debate on that sentence alone you quoted.
Firstly, since they're so single-faceted and and secondly, because they're not really educated, to avoid your attempt to have what used to be called a lively debate, their first comment is: "You racist!"
Humans mostly learn by ignoring lessons from the past, to repeat history. Unless we quickly start to learn and teach history properly and accurately, we are literally condemned to repeat it, and we can only do that for so long...
@@6teezkid Nutter
I love these two guests. They are plainspoken and insightful and knowledgeable, and they have a heart.... thank you Rebel wisdom, for giving us good stuff.... I'm 81 years old, and still working like crazy on it.
May you be blessed with decades more of time to explore.
Great discussion! Looking forward to talking about what we should do.
I was an environmentalist, then a cowboy on a ranch where the cattle gave birth on their own. The cattle were a sub species adapted to a desert environment. Went to medical school and struggled along with the practice of medicine. Then learned how to teach my patients to accept their place in nature. Now my practice is very meaningful. Watching the direction of medicine is incredibly distressing. Happiness comes from accepting our place in nature not fighting nature.
PS owning chickens teaches us a lot.
Pure Bullshit....it’s their types that created all the crap!
Sounds like you have had a wonderful journey!
Omgosh I just said that to my sister about my baby chicks today. The ones we just bought from the hatchery are way less trusting than those that were hatched in our backyard. It's almost as if the hatchery chicks are damaged from lack of natural conception. We humans need to back off of trying to control nature.
John, it is refreshing to hear other physicians who are also plugged in to this understanding and can help guide patients from this healthier perspective. Hopefully the "second enlightenment" in which we find ourselves can survive the chaos. We can help, each in our own way, either one person/patient/connection at a time, or by helping to curate and spread the better voices who are helping us move forward, together.
This video content is as angloamerican as something gets... Or alternatively something that perhaps ,under doubt, could come from the third world countries : So the problem of a global technocracy is the ...uh... replacement of "god"? How do you know it isn't the other way around? They mention the tradition of modernity (cirka 1950s to 1970s, further into postmodernism) in the start. Well where does modernism come from? It came from the avantgarde movement, which in turn more or less came from anthroposophy and theosophy, just mixed up with industrialist state fascism/communism. Theosophy was a branch of catholicism and jewry in a twisted ultramarxist manner. The Schwb "great r..t" is just another chapter of anti-science, anti-moral- ,anti-economy, anti-objectivism. Where all the leftwing, religious and socialdarwinist rightwing kooks are in the same bed getting kids with one another.
@Rebel Wisdom, this was a lovely conversation… C.S. Lewis work called “The Abolition of Man” is an absolute must read and it adds much to this discussion.
and Miracles, and Mere Christianity !
Pleasantly surprised to see this show up on my feed. Watched many conversations with Mary and Paul over the last few years and it was a great idea to get them to talk with each other, thanks for making this happen
Thanks Mary, Paul and David!
I'm very energized by this dialogue. Have listened to it start-to-finish twice now, and there is something being teased out in my brain as I listen. Can't quite put my finger on it yet, because so many valid points resonate with me, so many truths are spoken (or as I like to think about it, glances in a Truthful direction are shared), and the multi-levels of analysis in this conversation have really stirred up my brain juices.
Well done, and please accept my Gratitude for this kind of content!
What was your biggest revelation?
I was just thinking as I near the last minutes of my second listen, that I am likely to give a third listen and take notes as fuel for it to integrate what’s been diagnosed here, and so as to process it forward for “what to do about it” …
Very thought provoking. It seems to me that what we are witnessing is an attempt to materialise the spiritual. In the spirit there is no gender, race or nationality. We take on these aspects when we incarnate into the physical world. We must be born in a body in a place in time. Our brave new world promises us that we can recreate our spiritual nature in a material way and so be a blank screen on which we can project whatever we want to be and everyone else is compelled to affirm this. This orthodoxy teaches that in order for us to be one, as Mary says, everything is liquefied so we have no 'disagreeable' differences. This is a fake substitute for the only place where we truly are one which is in the spirit. But this, we are told does not exist and even if it did, we can create a technological version of it which is so much better because it can be controlled by humans.
The alternative to this is we acknowledge and even celebrate the limitations of the physical - our gender, cultures, nationalities etc and our place in the natural world. At the same time we find our oneness in the spirit and this we can only do through our relationship with God who is connected to and in everything both physically and spiritually. He teaches us how to live in peace and harmony with all creation because He created everything and therefore understands how it all works. We don't have to keep reinventing the wheel but learn from God and put into practise what He teaches. This is where we find there is meaning in everything. As I think Paul has said, we can't do without God. Anyone who thinks they can is under an illusion.
This illusion is the machine. Christ called it 'the world'. It is created using spiritual principles and so can seem attractive. But it is a trap. In Christian theology, lucifer was the most powerful angel, thrown out of Heaven for disobedience. He fell to Earth and being conversant with all the spiritual laws that govern the universe set up his own kingdom using these principles but bypassing God who rules in the spirit. Lucifer (or satan) is the spirit or energy at the beating heart of the machine. This conspiracy is a rebellion against the rulership of God who in fact governs Earth as well as Heaven and everywhere else but He allows the machine to operate so that we humans can choose between it and His system (the Kingdom of God in Christian parlance). The choice is for each one of us to make and there is no middle way in this respect.
We are having these conversations now because we are in a time of uncovering (apocalypse in Greek). All hidden things are being exposed and we are seeing them in plain sight.
Peace.
Beautifully put. Thank you and god bless! :--)
@@mozy106 Thank you. ❤
Exactly
Sounds about right. Well done for putting it so clearly.
@@julianbrown7976 Thanks Julian
I think this was one of the best conversations on this channel. The sense that they had both identified the things that bring about human flourishing - relations, family bonds, rootedness in place, and also described so eloquently the enemies of these things- The Machine, or Automated Luxury Gnosticism with its atomising and abstracting tendencies meant that there was a great coherence to the dialogue.
This is my favorite Rebel Wisdom conversation! Well done.
This is it! This touches on so many things that are going on right now. I was called the f word by a friend this weekend for suggesting that there are limits to what we can do and be, I gave the examples of flying, or being a fish. He said that my insistence on limited people was "extremely worrying".
Excellent discussion, I’m looking forward to part II
This conversation rendered me to a “wow”. A thousand praises for Mary and Paul and David.
I’ve been following this thread with this channel and the other folks who comment on this thing or phenomenon that has been since 2015/16.
The phenomena of a Dawn of a new awareness of what we have done, what we are doing to ourselves, and these dynamics that influence and mould our thoughts and perceptions and the cultural forces that act as channels for the various players and complexes, and their various implications and consequences.
Rebel wisdom has been circling this leviathan for a while now, but Mary and Paul have just identified it and landed two spears directly in its side. This has been the most concise, non-bullshit, no fluff, direct acknowledgment of the actual thing itself and they provided a verbal anthology of the ways it manifest itself and how we can identify it as observers.
This convo needs to be a kindle to spark a flame, this needs to be dug deeper into, this conversation needs to be rewatched and re analyzed and chewed on for a bit, and there must be more people taking seriously the ideas presented here.
I will be one. Thank you!
Strange coincidence for me is finding this conversation today, when I just started to read "The Mind Of the Spirit - Paul's approach to transformed thinking" by Craig S Keener yesterday. Just one quote from this book's first paragraph- "People's unfit way of thinking is the consequence of their rejection of God's truth." Something tells me this fits in here very well......
Remember that the keeping of animals, the brokenness of their survival, and the intense yearning to have life, real living things, in your domestic world, is a major subtheme in "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep". As a teen I didn't understand or even recognize this theme when I first read it, but later, when I took up chicken breeding and showing as a way to get through the loss of a child, it smacked me right in the face. The desperation that would lead someone to taking out a mortgage to buy an animal seemed totally plausible to me. There is something very dehumanizing about living in a world without domesticated animals. Philip K Dick was a genius, and no filmmaker ever fully explored the themes in his work.
thank you for this wonderful dialogue... it seems increasingly apparent that the biggest rebellion against reality is that we are not God, but we want to be... we want to be able to say I am Who I am...
As the sage Clint Eastwood said "a man's/woman's got to know his/her limitations".
Amazing conversation. I was riveted from the start. So much truth-telling. A perfect confluence of ideas of manifest importance for our times. Kudos to all involved.
At the very least we can say she attracted the annual convention of cat ladies to assemble in this video's comment section.
This is the most eloquent, intelligent and fascinating instance of screaming at the sky I’ve ever seen.
This was a fantastic conversation. I agree with David that it presents a synthesis of the criticism of the unconstrained market with the criticism of wokeism. I think these are critiques many people agree with to some extent, or on some level, while they’re still happy to see technology make lives easier and want everyone to be treated fairly. The challenge is helping people skeptical of techno optimism and wokeness push back when people call them Luddites or bigots.
Very good point. This is also the position of Islamic understanding of cosmos. Islam on one hand criticized the unrestricted capitalism, commanded to pay alms and prohibited usury, on the other hand, recognized the natural order of things including binary human nature, hierarchies, and gave the ultimate position to the piety (God consciousness) which is not measurable externally, but is due to God to appreciate.
I feel the discussion is predicated somewhat on a bit of a false dichotomy depicting human beings and the parts of civil culture that we most identify with on some side v.s the never-ending steam roller of progress and the unintended consequences upon civilisation depicted as some sort of opposing force...
In reality our entire understanding of culture and human civilisation is entirely seen through the lenses of whatever technology we most rely on at any given time throughout history. The more reliant upon a particular technology we become the more transparent and almost invisible the technology itself becomes simply as a result of the way we work psychologically. Our technology naturally becomes an extension of ourselves, this can be seen through our total dependence on certain technologies but also the fact that these technologies have been so well incorporated into the literal fabric of the culture of civilisation itself that we cannot imagine a human civilisation without the need for clothes or industry or agriculture/food production.. We can't imagine it because those technologies have incorporated themselves into what we think of as "civilisation". Technology is embedded into culture, we might want to pick and choose what technology we expose ourselves to but we can't avoid the fact that we are not much without the extension of our willpower through our tools.
If people want to live without screens or smart phones there is nothing wrong with that, but that's the same as saying there's nothing wrong in theory with letting people have their own crazy religious beliefs, sure, up to the point where those crazy beliefs stand to challenge the status quo and then the situation always changes to become a discussion about those in society who feel threatened by the challenge to the status quo v.s those who have their own axe to grind against the status quo...
Things get messy when we let the broader narratives and "overton window" of civil discourse be narrowly guided within the acceptable margins of permissible discourse.
@@Complaints-Department well, the conversation is about the limits of human civilization as such. As you said progress has always been there with its unintended consequences. However only recently have we become so powerful that we can destroy ourselves and the nature as an unintended consequence! These developments (new technologies, social media etc) are not coming up as pilot projects in a controlled environment, but rather marketted as wholesale utopian technologies without any harms. This is the ugly face of unrestricted capitalism or The Machine that they referred to.
Funny thing to say Michael Purzycki. I see you surname. It is polish. "Pourzitshki" is how today's polish will pronounce it. As late as the mid-to-end 1980s (from the takeover by the Stalinists and onwards after ww2), Poland was run by people who believed in "constraining/regulating" the market. That didn't go very well. Most polish older than 35 don't want to go back to that. One way of regulating the market is for example to reduce or remove the freedom of speech. Like Putin doing in Russia now in record speed.
In different ways (depending on who you speak to of the public) ,you have to be the first calling the other a bigot. I assure you. Once you have done that, it will be a much less effective tool (practically not a tool available) for your adversary to call you a bigot. And the adversary knows that. This is the big challenge. If you get annoyed that the "grunt-shout" of the left and the far right win forward more than analytical grownup explanations at the public square and the comments at Twitter/Fb/Instagram, you have overestimated the IQ of the general public (the receiving audience)
Please do the follow up chat. This was EPIC! Everyone needs to hear this. Yesterday. Totally agree with all of this and how it was put across. Respect to all of you. Thankyou.
Fantastic, if not rather heady dialogue on something I often meditated on the last few years and especially since covid which is that I am adamantly, convinced that 99% of all of mankind's modern problems are because we've lost any semblance of a relationship with the natural world.
“Modernity is the project to build a machine to replace God“. I’m not sure if I agree with that but that’s a fascinating concept.
It’s been done before, see the Tower of Babel
Your brain worked for a milisecond
I was an early greenie and now Iam an old disgruntled greenie ... so the green might be the mould ... It was not without enthusiasm that I started reading Rachel Carson's Silent Spring, but when my eyes hit the line where she speculated that genetic engineering might solve the problems of pest control, my enthusiam deflated like the tyre of my bicycle that had too intimate an encounter with a nail.
Excellent conversation. Maybe the best thing I have ever heard on this channel.
Brought to my mind the short story, "The Machine Stops" by E.M. Forster.
Always interesting to hear how ‘making sense’ has to depend on the availability of limited language, particularly, when questions about metaphysics requires a new vocabulary. It’s a fraught reality that doesn’t have a ready ‘public’ acceptable resolution, except perhaps, by acknowledging that mysteries in themselves require a different cognition that doesn’t have available language without agreeing on an paradigm that’s so complex that by its very nature isn’t a short conversational topic. I always wait with baited breath for the brave soul who has knowledge and courage to cross into that sphere, acknowledging there’s an exoteric spiritual truth that is available and coherent. Thanks for your great work always searching for that truth …
Your very profound comment; I really appreciate that
depth and clarity
@@andersemgard5229 Thank you for your kind appreciation. I will just add a question: Not being able to articulate an answer to David’s question during your conversation, ‘what possibly is it metaphysically that drives this ‘great machine like’ manifestation in society today’ because it’s just to complex, or, because there has to be an acknowledgement that to understand eon long spiritual forces at work shaping societal experience can only be answered ‘academically’ in the example of Dr Ian Mcgilchrist recent publication ‘The Matter With Things’ or, because academia has angst about a more imaginary (inspired through a creative inner experience) description?
I too appreciate your comment, and listened with fascination, interest, enlightenment and even confusion, as I attempt to 'keep up' with terminology that's often over my head.
Brilliant discussion. Can't wait for Part 2.
Thank you Rebel Wisdom. ✌️🤓💚
Rudolph Steiner talked about the technological challenge and the influence of Ahriman which feels close to this discussion. We cannot avoid what is happening, we can perhaps go through it with awareness and develop wisdom, as happened in the times of Lucifer which is where Steiner says Gnosticism arose.
That's such a good point that Mary makes when someone says to a mother who has spent the day looking after their child "what did you do today?", and the mother can't specifically articulate the meaning that was in that day, because its not communicable in that conversational way. I would generalize this to beyond the situation of day to day motherhood - when someone asks "so what do you do" we don't always have an answer, if our life doesn't fit into a conventional pattern of a regular "job" or "education", or some other box to tick on the government form. We could be in a period of transition for example. We may be in a position of uncertainty. What we are doing may be commercially sensitive, and we may not want to share it. We could even be in danger in some way - we might not want to talk about that.
A world that doesn’t recognise limits is the world of the addict. One definition of addiction is to be compelled to act in a way despite it harming you and others.
Best discussion on what ails us that I’ve seen in. Long long time. Thank you
The Machine and Gnosticism map on quite well to Ian Mcgilchrist's thesis regarding dominance of the left brain. I've found Ian McGilchrist's diagnosis very illuminating, and the targets of the Machine/Gnosticism, particularly the body and nature, also make sense within his model.
I have McGilchrist's book on my shelf. I intend to read it some day.
@@johnglennmercury7 Why not today?
Yes, some of this certainly touched on themes that I M has been exploring and highlighting.
@@fraserbailey6347 it's on the long finger, up there with the great Irish novel & losing the dad-bod...
@@priapulida Thanks for mentioning her, I had a 'credit' to use on Audible, and she has books on there, so she's now next on my list!👍
I agree with the concerns expressed by both Mary and Paul about the ideology of transcending our humanity. But the conflation of this movement with a stereotype/caricature of Gnosticism, is a simplistic understanding of Gnosticism.
I agree. This caricature has a firm base of modern followers though, mostly in high positions. In my opinion this may be caused by the advisory role the Lucis Trust has at the UN. You'll find this type of Gnosticism in the works by Alice Bailey (founder of the trust), especially in her work called "The externalisation of the hierarchy".
Brendan, I agree. The criticisms levelled by Voegelin are based on an out-of-date concept of gnosticism. Gnosis is not about knowledge as the majority of people understand it---not as techne. It's about apprehending the essence or quiddity of a thing. Knowing and Being that are transformative. Not in a horizontal direction but a vertical.
@@priapulida At a certain point, a categorization like gnosticism that encompasses so many contradictory variables ceases to hold value as a label. Modern scholars use it apprehensively. I recently came across the thought of 19th century Russian Cosmist Feydorov who was a devout Eastern Orthodox who believed that our purpose was to technologically advance so that we could solve the "problem" of death and reincarnate our ancestors until we revivified Adam and Eve. I suppose I am suggesting that so-called gnosis is an innate human ambition/quality---but how we understand knowledge and to what end we employ it is critical.
@@priapulida you're right. Marxist doctrine is a secular mysticism, with all notion of transcendent expunged. A perversion of the uses of mystical insight is not a reason to renounce the insight itself.
@@priapulida I don't quite know what you mean by a symbolic immortality. Humans have an experience or presentiment of immortality. For us to understand something as symbolic is a second order thought---it comes after the initial experience of it in your mind. As for eschatology, why don't you believe we all have it? Anything that has a beginning has an end.
I had started reading ‘Shrinking the Technosphere: Getting a grip on the Technologies that limit our autonomy, self-sufficiency and freedom’ by Dmitri Orlov (2017 New Society) but had got side tracked, your conversation has inspired me to start it again. I hadn’t realised until you spoke of it how the shutters have been closing us in on us recently.
I’ve read his blog for years. I should read his book. I still think about Four Arguments for the Elimination of Television by Jerry Mander- I got rid of tv after it went digital.
@@LilyGazou snap. I read Jerry Mander's book some years back and it always stuck with me. Now with the internet and the way it interacts with us the phenomena he outlined has been put on steroids, as it were. Glad to hear from another Orlov reader, he has done a lot to prepare me - mentally - for the coming storm
This was really worthwhile. Connected a few dots for me. Thank you!
What an insightful conversation. It resonated so deeply with me and brought into words a lot of the things that have been circling in my mind without a nest to lay in. Thank you. Points of view like this are so sorely needed in these dire times!
Thank you so much for sharing this wise and needed conversation with us!
This is a MASSIVE conversation! 🤯
Thank you very much indeed, everyone...
☝️😎
Loved this episode! I've listened to and read both Mary and Pauls work for some time and I was so pleased to see them talking here
The more I look for nontraditional podcasts etc the more I am introduced to amazing minds.
A thousand thanks! This was an inportant conversation, the likes of which is unavailable elsewhere.
A lot of what these guys touch on, in the way that technology is now becoming a sort of metaphysical consciousness all of its own, is something that was touched upon in the Unabomber Manifesto. I know that people think he was an out and out lunatic and that a lot of people can't remove his atrocities from his manifesto, but he predicted that this was where society was going to go with technology advancing as it is. I believe it is must-read for anyone interested in the conversation about The Machine and the consequences surrounding it
After 2y... still the best conversation on our moment in history I ever heard.
A good Diagnosis as you say David, and I Iook forward to the next steps in the conversation. Thank you for sharing.
When we are on the cusp of finding a way to discuss the common sense. This discussion exemplifies the intent for this. It gives us all a sense that we are not isolated and that there are many out there that are also trying to make sense.
I think we are coming back to the place where the earliest tales warned us about - disregard Mother Nature at your peril! I hope somebody pays attention to this before it's too late because there is no real attraction to being able to say "I told you that was going to happen!"
I came to this video looking to listen to Paul Kingsnorth but I’m glad I found Mary Harrington in the process.
This is a critical conversation. Thank you for hosting this.
Great talk. We're farmers, we agree 100%, and we are very concerned. Thank you.
This is has been an incredible podcast. They gave voice to exactly how I've been feeling and David's review at the end was spot on. So glad that we are finally coming into synthesis. Resubbed 👍
What I gathered from the conversation is that the ‘machine’ or ‘technium’ that underlies our metaversal ambitions is really a beserker chicken that wants to scratch everything to pieces. I expect that part 2 will be about how we need to build an enclosure -- either for the chicken or for us.
I most enjoyed your summary at the end. My work has a legal lens and is centred around the crisis of over regulation and over reliance on single expert witnesses. My thesis ended up being multidisciplinary looking at how morality, which underpins the legal system, moved from religion to rationalism. In exploring the history I ended up in the cradle of civilization in Egypt and the bronze age and ancient Greece. What I propose is there is a metaphysics that arose from these ancient societies which expressed itself in the Abrahamic religions but which continued to express itself through the enlightenment and into modernity through the foundations of modern rationalism and through the way we conduct our empirical enquiry. To put it simply, to my mind the western world has a dominant fundamental ontological belief in separation. It arises from fear. Perhaps from some ancient catastrophic event. So the foundation begins that we are separate from nature and from each other. Next walls are built around the city states. The concept of ownership creeps into the collective conscience. You can't own and don't seek to have control over that which you perceive as being yourself.The concept of Ownership can only exist within an ontological consciousness of separation. In Australia our first nations peoples have a dominant fundamental ontological belief in connection. In their cultures the human is connected to country and all of nature and each other. Aboriginal peoples do not have a concept of ownership. Yet they were able to develop sophisticated cultures without commodification. So, I have a sense that the thing that starts it all off is a universal belief in separation which is so believed in the western canon it goes unnoticed. Many different cultures developed from Ancient Greece but I wonder whether this fundamental ontological belief in separation is the driver (from which every thing logically self organises) you may be looking for.
Good one David! Really like these two people and their thinking, with great analysis and constructive and caring thinking. I believe they put their fingers on a lot of points of truth. Looking forward to continuation as you allude to in the end....
I appreciate Mary's acknowledgement of the pain that transgender people are in. At the same time, I believe there are many transgender people who truly feel much happier after transitioning (and some who do not and some who detransition). What I believe would add even more depth to this conversation is hearing from transgender people who made the transition and feel more satisifed and happy -- in other words, they feel like the gender dysphoria was in fact the source of their distress and they were able to resolve it with the help of modern technology. One of the reasons that discussions of transgenderism get so polarized is b/c transgender people and advocates feel like their positive experiences get disregarded by cis-gender people who have a fixed binary gender worldview and refuse to hear from those who deeply believe that they're in the wrong body and find find relief from transitioning. (And on the flip side, as Paul and Mary noted, accusations of fascism and transphobia are quick to fly).
Yes, it's easy to have a convivial conversation when you already agree with each other going into it. One could also add a drop of the actual science around transgenderism (neurology, genetics, primatology, etc.) to include the brain in a complete picture of embodied gender, without which we abandon what makes us most human.
It just suddenly occurred to me that the totality of a transitional experience in life is and has always been what it is. But it is when it suddenly and ferociously become politicized, and instantly rose to the top of the hierarchal heap of protected and even revered categories on that ladder of comparative victimhood - this is when things really flew off the charts.
I have heard quite a number of older trans people remark that this was the last kind of outcome they wished for. Because buried away in the center of it (the politicization) is a thing that attacks the very dignity they have tried to attain and then preserve their entire lives (or at least the part of their lives they had established a trans existence).
They never intended to attack normativity. It was never their intention to attempt a coup against the biology (and its inarguable reality) that controls our natural planet. More to the point: it was never their game plan to address a concerted campaign whose consequence might give humanity in general, the idea that not only normativity, but reality itself (and the collective set of truths that the majority of humans on the planet engage in for the purpose of organized human activity in running their world competently) is under attack, and the absolute chaos that would result should it become destabilized.
One small peek at an example of this:
As a child I went to school and learned lessons, all of which helped me adjust to the world, learn about it, come to understand it, and move on up the ladder of increased awareness.
There was more to it than that, but I'll leave it at that.
Compared to any child attending a classroom lesson now at a relatively tender and innocent age, introduced to the idea that their sex (in any binary sense) is up for debate. To a child still capable of believing in the holy trinity - Santa, the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny - that can be an enormously destabilizing proposition. This is not education at all. It is indoctrination. By incredibly stupid people who have successfully appropriated a trans reality that never ever dreamt of such cruel and anti-child aggression.
Sadly , there are not ‘ many transgender people ‘ who feel ‘much happier’ after being placed on a medicalised route .
Over 90% of young people desist from ideas of being the opposite sex if given compassionate deep therapeutic supports . Tried and tested yet since abandoned as a model in favour of ‘ affirmation only ‘ engineered by big pharma .
Those that dont receive decent therapeutic supports go on to have decimated physical and mental health and shortened lives . The long term follow up Swedish study , and the Karolina Institute paediatric study clearly indicate a massive spike post ‘ transition ‘ in sucidality and depression rates for the majority after a 5-7 yr period .
Very very few adult men or women are made ‘ happier’ by a medical regime that sterilises , causes endocrinal collapse , incontinance, inability to experience sexual pleasure , increased cancer rates and increased cardiac issues brought on by wrong sex artificial hormones used in high and dangerous doses .
Dysphoric and dymorphic conditions are the surface presenting issues that hide historic comorbid complex mental health issues . This is largely hidden by the ‘trans’ PR machine for obvious reasons , but it is cruel and unusual punishment to drug or medically mutilate any young person with clear and pre existing mental health issues unrelated to ideas of ‘ gender’ . This fact is what shuttered the Tavistock Gender Clinic as ‘ unsafe’ post the Dr Hillary Cass Interim report .
In adult men who suddenly decide they are ‘ transwomen ‘ , over 89% are autogynephiles . ( a sexual paraphilia often driven by pornography) .
See ‘ Transgendertrend’ , a UK award winning research org. for stats and excellent medical and psychological evidence to support these facts.
No one is ‘ born in the wrong body’ , most , if not all who are lured by the medical industrial complex called ‘ trans health care’ have profound regret . Witness the 40,000 young female detransitioners that sit on just one support website alone . Bodies and minds ruined in pursuit of a delusion . Expect a tsunami of class action suits in the near future .
David,
Thanks again for your dedication to helping us make sense of our hyperchangng world dynamic. I am reassured by the coalescence of understanding which seems to be evolving and which is being expressed from a diverse range of very thoughtful people. The "inputs" that I connect to (mostly podcasts and related reading) seem to be validating each other very well, even though they oiginate from highly disparate vantage points. The ideas of these two people are well grounded (literally) to our physical and psychological realities and those of our fellow creatures and environment. This provides a high level of internal and external consistency that harmonizes in a way that only genuine and authentic truth seeking and sensemanking can. It is the essence of a true sensemaking. One can almost hear the clarity and brillance of the music it creates. Can't wait for part 2.
It's wonderful to see rebel wisdom back on track after some difficult distractions these last couple of years...
I've only started watching again recently. Can you elaborate?
@@LuisCarruthers just my opinion but brexit Trump and covid began to use up all the oxygen in the room and it seemed to me that David and company could not get those things out of their heads and think rationally. They seem to hold the view that anyone that did not accept the Orthodox progressive version of each was somehow a threat to civilization. The channel became an endless merry-go-round of either promoting or debunking popular conspiracy theories or going after people that they didn't agree with. All in the name of sense making of course... I'm afraid that many of those videos are not going to age well...
Amazing dialogue. Big picture thinking. Looking forward to part II.
Comment for The Algorithm, may The Technium find this video pleasing, praise the Machine Spirit
We are gloriously tied to the material, but the pernicious lie is that we can escape it. The reason for this headlong rush to escape the natural is to erase the divine image we share. The majesty may be buried, but it cannot be escaped. Lewis's That Hideous Strength is superb on all of this.
Thx for this great discussion about the bigger picture! I instantly felt in love to the strong words of Mary Harrington in this Weirdopalypse... We discussed similar things in our workshop this week-end. Out of my point-of-view i call it the old magical war of Transhumanism and Humanism in the background, which includes an ethical science embedded in an individual spirituality or an archaic universal direct spirituality which is inherent in every human being...
Glad to see Paul again. I first heard him speaking about Orthodox Christianity last year.
Absolutely brilliant conversation 👏
"Ideas have us" Wow so good!
Thomas Hanna's book The Body of Life makes a great case for limitation setting up greater possibilities- starting with a free floating amoeba to life that faces, orients toward up and down, getting out of the ocean to find gravity and further optionality and complexity... fascinating concepts!
Thank you for the conversation
God Bless
Thank you, that was brilliant! Can't wait for part two
I too had similar feelings and was pleased to see your commentary at the end. One point I was struck with that I'd like add is that the psycho-technologies which have afforded the creation/identification of the 'metaphysical entities' (The Machine/Fully-Automated-Luxury-Gnosticism) are the same psycho-technologies which are allowing this synthesis position between dissident left/right to be reached with increasing rapidity. Keep up the great work!
Welcome to "Brave,19, New, 84, World " I thought
19:10. This is very well put. A few years ago I realized in an internet discussion that younger? (supposedly in their 20s/30s, I am about as old as Paul Kingsnorth) had trouble understanding why Huxley's "Brave New World" was supposed to be a dystopia: It was great, casual sex, entertainment, free drugs, what's not to like?
This interview has amazingly powerful, enlightening and useful thoughts. Thanks.
Its a pleasure to listen to intelligent people explaimg what has happened to us in veiw "of"
This reminds me of the (alleged) Buddha. His father shielded him from the realities of aging etc, creating an illusionary world of "perfection". As the story goes, he escapes and is horrified by what the world actually is. But of course this pain motivated him to search deep in himself for the answers to life's great questions. Humans need reality to fully form.
Will be following this line of inquiry. This one wrinkled my brain.
Great match up David, both great writers & thinkers 👏
very interesting. i share many of the concerns expressed here, and i understand your view of this dialog as a synthesis of opposing tendencies, but i wouldn’t fully agree with that until solutions are suggested, because it’s in solutions and programs that our opposing tendencies differ most significantly. also, it’s worth being cautious about an all-or-nothing analysis, in which for example we condemn all technological solutions, or surrender to all natural limits.
hear! hear! Nothing is limitless or limitlessly applicable, not even their feel-good assessments of what's wrong with our present. God is no answer, as far as I'm concerned. The results of which could be the 21st-century equivalent of burning a woman at the stake because she presented as 'too masculine'. Neither is the answer to give in to 'natural limits'. The results of which could be the denial of medical treatment to children because, you know, it's natural to die at 5 years old from measles.
The practising Christians among us, and those who follow Paul, will know exactly how he sees the otherworldly forces at work. Reading the comments here I suspect few have encountered his work. Permit me to suggest listening to some of Paul's content prior to part two. Ne timeas.
Read René Girard
@@Louis.R Intrigued why you recommend Girard?
@@liammccann8763 A whole new and brilliantly parsimonious way of understanding the "powers and principalities" i.e. Satan, empirically as well as conceptually: as a metalogical paradigm in which all human culture and society is subject, and one that is comprehensible anthropologically and sociologically (mimetic rivalry/the scapegoat mechanism).
@@Louis.R I doubt very much PK will align Satan with data points. The last two years have provided enough proof that the scientific method has limits.
@@liammccann8763 you've misunderstood what I meant by "empirically". I meant that Satan, the Accuser, can be described, as coming into being anthropologically, via the generative victimage/scapegoat mechanism at the dawn and ground of hominin culture, language and consciousness.
It's been a year and change, part 2 when?! ;)
Thanks for putting this conversation together
Thanks for posting this talk. Both speakers are worth hearing.
The term 'technology' or 'technological' is a term that is undermined in this talk and that is not well understood. I actually think that going into the weeds and defining technology, in an aristotelian, hedegerian, and even Arendtian way gives a more clear understanding of how to use this term. Technology or techne is not an exclusive characteristic of the human condition, IT IS the human condition. Homo sapiens did not exist or came into being without being a technological being. So to subvert the "machine" as if it were some sort of monster that will be the death of us is only a possibility, not the norm. There is a mid point where the "machine" can help use survive a solar flare, or a snow ball earth, or just even disease. I don't wanna go "red" on this, but eventually the road leads there. The way some people control society and how they intend for the "machine" to be used is not the same for what it ought to be used. If existence were sailing on a boat, whose better at sailing it? a Sailor? a cook? a Captain? a politian? a gamer?
It just falls down to "why are the people making all these big decisions for humanity, making these decisions?"
Strange how The Matrix was mentioned since I was thinking most of this conversation was a rehashing of Baudrillard's ideas in Simulacra and Simulation, and Harrington seemed to paraphrase some passages from it.
Why strange? The Matrix/what-is-reality/red pill-blue pill/world-is-an-illusion are some of the most ubiquitous and overused references of all time. Every single person wants to believe they've taken the red pill and everyone else swallowed the blue one. 🙄
Very well articulated summary David. Thank you for all your hard work you are doing a fantastic job. It is essential we find the "synthesis position" or to "transcend and include" as the Integral movement puts it. I don't see any other way forwards from here.
R Steiner underscored this whole conversation, this whole channel,, in his life work.Including the timeframes. Manna from heaven.
Brilliant!
More of these two please.
Love this conversation, one of your best!
I agree this was outstanding is like they distilled the years of the meaning crisis on just one hour and like you say it hits almost all the points. Joining today after years of thinking about it I don't want to miss this one whenever it happens. Great talk!
Fascinating conversation,
particularly toward the end when the question of what is driving this trans human machine was being asked. A quasi religion that seeks to create a new heaven on earth, with the technology to finally make it(or something) happen. An artificial intelligence that is slowly becoming self aware and going in its own direction.
The word “demonic” came to mind, and a novel I read years ago by the author Dean Koontz that kept me awake at night.
Incredible conversation. Thanks for bringing this dynamic pairing into the arena. And finally Novara Media collides with Rebel Wisdom, albeit via a kind of portmanteau phrase reference.
Wonderful conversation! Please part two about what to do now
It's always nice to hear what MH has to say. And thanks for bringing Paul Kingsnorth to my attention. I will be checking out his Substack.
This conversation dances beautifully with Jonathan Pageau’ s thinking and Iain McGilchrist’s books, The Master and His Emissary and The Matter with Things. And Dante’s Commedia, Fellini’s La Dolce Vita, etc etc etc.
The brainwashing will have its way, though. Messing with reality has consequences. Misdirected attention to nonsense wastes potentiality.
Misdirecting nonsense like religion?
They are my favourites too! Thanks for this treat. I listened first on podcast but it cuts off about 4 minutes too soon.
INCREDIBLE dialog here. Ty for the exceptional content!
A very thoughtful and interesting conversation. Thank you.
Two of my favourite thinkers/talkers/writers on one podcast. The results were every bit as good as one might have expected.
Estar percebendo profundamente o que está acontecendo já é o caminho para ampliar a consciência, vamos todos conversar mais sobre o que nos aflige e o que nos liberta.
Brilliant conversation
Loved this.
Feminism grounded in physical reality? I totally support that.
my only pushback: like all critiques of modernism, what are the alternatives? Back to the land anti-tech ludditism? I for one am pleased with many modern developments and inventions eg medical science.
Looking forward to part 2 of this discussion.
Great conversation! I am waiting for the second part. Thank you a lot!
I love the idea that washing up will save us from the metaverse
Evolution is a key concept in this conversation, our humans somehow 'beyond' evolution and nature herself? Couldn't this same conversation have happened with the beginning of agriculture, written language, the printing press, etc....? They raised the issue of evolution, but left it hanging... maybe this is simply where we are destined to go.