Fanatec CSL DD & the reason we can’t have nice things
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ค. 2024
- Welcome to The Sim Channel for some thoughts on the pricing model of the Fanatec CSL DD!
Don’t forget to hit like and subscribe!
----------------------------
SUPPORT AND FOLLOW THE SIM CHANNEL
----------------------------
~~~ Sim-Lab Affiliate Link ~~~
simlab.prf.hn/l/rdObW0q
~~~ Fanatec Affiliate Link ~~~
www.fanatec.com?FAP+Banner&General+Links&a_aid=617f327f825e0
~~~ Trak Racer Affiliate Link ~~~
Enter coupon code "TheSimChannel" for a 5% discount at checkout!
www.trakracer.eu/?ref=55
~~~ GT Omega: Get a 5% Discount! ~~~
Use code "THESIMCHANNEL" on checkout.
~~~ ButtKicker (US & Canada only) ~~~
thebuttkicker.com?aff=48
~~~ Instagram ~~~
/ the_sim_channel - เกม
![[TH] 2024 PMWC x EWC Main Tournament Day 3 | PUBG MOBILE WORLD CUP x ESPORTS WORLD CUP](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/3EM6gpHgLk4/mqdefault.jpg)
People just like to complain I think that fanatec is brilliant for doing this.
What for ripping off customers with a PSU that costs around HALF that price *retail*!
@@davidpovey01 Are you serious you must not understand how business works. If they were to design 2 completely different budget dd units the price would be substantially more for the consumer. This way everyone can get in to a dd base and if you don't want to buy the bigger power supply you don't have to. let me explain this from a different angle to help this sink in. If Fanatec is not profitable they would go out of business and that means less competition in a space where there is not many options to begin with so we should be happy to support a company that is willing to bring us great product at reasonable prices. After all they are setting the standard here by increasing the quality of hardware available to the consumer without increasing the cost. Or would you rather have a belt drive at the same price point as you can get a dd
@@davidpovey01 You are not paying for the psu itself, you are paying for what it does. You are not paying for 90 watts extra power, you are paying for making a 5nm DD wheel get to 8nm at a groundbreaking price. What you get for 479$ is an 8nm DD1 if the previews are anything to go by, and most of DD1 and DD2 users tune their power down to around that strength anyways. There is absolutely no reason for anybody to complain about this, its still 70$ cheaper than its inferior predecessor and there is currently no competition. stop crying, pay up or shut up.
@@davidpovey01 Did you actually watch and listen to this vid and the good points made?
exactly. this time last year if we got told you can get a DD wheel for ~£400 including the 8nm power then we'd all be happy about it.
Excellent analysis. The economics of the situation make this the best path for both Fanatec and the end customer, as you point out.
Why? It costs Fanatec extra to produce 2 lots of advertising, packaging, hold in stock 2 different PSU's ect. All those costs will be passed on to the consumer. Just build/supply/sell the the 8nm version - simples.
@@davidpovey01 for what price? There’s not 2 separate ad/marketing campaigns. It’s some extra copy and graphics in their existing material. The cost of that is insignificant compared to the inventory and product development costs. The $349 price point drives more volume than a higher price would, while the boost kit price ensures they have a business case that actually keeps the lights on. As someone in a product development role, their approach is good for both the company and the consumer.
@@Rac3r20 " There’s not 2 separate ad/marketing campaigns"
Yes there is, there is a marketing campaign et-al for the "Boosted Kit". Unnecessary cost, although I agree it maybe insignificant compared to...
They still need to hold in stock *2 different PSU's* and the additional complications of ordering A or B.
It could have just been shipped with the correctly rated PSU for the motor (180W) and then there would be no need for the above. It's good for the company for sure, especially the over inflated price of a simple 180W PSU but it's certainly not good for the customer.
Finally a educated and intelligent response to alot of crap videos and point of views that have little thought behind. Thank you
Exactly we now live in a society of whining spoiled brats
A video coming to the point in way less than 10 minutes, is it still 2021 or did I time tracel? So used to videos getting stretched to 30min for the sake of watchtime :D
Well, this video did get stretched, technically... only I didn't feel ripped off in the process this time.
people are mad because they wanted a high powered dd wheel for less than 500 coins
I think they'll be getting an 8Nm direct drive for 500, that's not bad at all. :)
It's stupid. Fanatec makes and affordable DD wheel and people just bitch about the upgrade option. 🙄
@@scottmeredith3359 Spoiled kids complain about the gold being presented at them the wrong way in.
(I had a nasty follow up involving my girlfriend but will leave it at that)
I really hope Fanatec won't listen to those spoiled brats. Any DD wheel base for less than 800 is a great buy. We should celebrate the CSL DD cause Fanatec is the only wheel manufacturer that's willing to innovate not only on technical front but also on price. Which if you think about it is AMAZING! I mean we've had 1000+ DD wheel bases for a decade now and no one was doing anything about making it more affordable for the average Joe (not even the Chinese)
@@scottmeredith3359 It's NOT an 'upgrade'. The motor is a 180W device and requires a 180W PSU, supplying the system with a 90W PSU is actually a *downgrade*. Then they shaft you with the price of a 180W PSU that it should have shipped with in the 1st place and leave you with a redundant 90W PSU, not customer friendly, not even environmentally friendly. Good for profits though.
I just want my new direct drive wheel. If I wanna get more torque in the future I'd just upgrade when I'm ready. I can't really complain with the huge price improvement
They could have supplied the system with the 180W PSU *it was designed for* in the 1st place that would have only added around $20 to the total price (difference between a 90W PSU & a 180W PSU)
Instead they over inflate the price of the 180W AND it leaves you with a redundant 90W PSU if you later upgrade.
@@davidpovey01 yeah, its defintely dumb to charge that much, but Its enough of a drop in price that I can get behind it. my issue is availability because I've been seeing people scalping fanatec like they did with GPUs
Great perspective.
I think you explain it very well. My opinion on this case is that it’s great that Fanatec makes a entry level DD base and other entry level brands have to step up there game or lower the price. Maybe the target of Fanatec project when they started it was to attract T300 en G29 users with a DD wheel base. So they set there target price on €350,- . So the production cost has to be price X. They made a base that could do 8nm peak but with a power supply that was just €10,- over the target cost price. And like you said, it’s cheaper to make one and the same wheelbase hardware to lower the production cost. And Fanatec has a base with 2 options on power supply, so they can lose both belt driven models they were selling.
Exactly right. I'm in the market for my first feedback wheel, and while I was considering the g923 and tx, seeing a direct drive wheel in the same price range made me reconsider.
I could get the g923 for $400, or the thrustmaster for $500ish. But for $600, I can get a dd base, wheel, and upgradable pedals from fanatec. With the extreme jump in performance I don't see any reason to get a G or TM wheel.
The fact that I also have access to the Fanatec ecosystem and can upgrade with the boost kit later make this a no brainer.
Thank you very much for the video on some balance, common sense and thought. Something thing that is sorely lacking in the world today.
For you sir, I take my hat off! Fair explanation with perfect examples.
This is the best deal for any wheel made right now. Some people still complain when things are free so I would pay attention to these free loaders
Plus I imagine most people complaining aren't even in the market for the wheelbase
I see AMS 2 and I subscribe :)
I have also already ordered my CSL DD with the boost 180 adapter, 1 extra year of warranty and the McLaren GT3 V2 (without the quick release) , all for $850 USD, I am very excited even though I'm full on well expecting it to get here after Christmas.
Sorry, where you talking about the wheel or something like that? I was mesmerized by the race in the background. I really wanted you to catch that mercedez...
But for real, great analysis!
yeah I wanted to catch it too, but I kept screwing up the brake points for the hairpin and the chicane before that unfortunately ;-)
I dont think that Fanatec are ripping people off. I believe that they made this choice to cut down on having to invest in two different products and pass the savings onto the customer. I would like to see some sort of discount if you decide to buy the option power pack as you wont be needing the stock one and that would be a nice incentive for someone to just buy the upgraded power pack at a discounted price as they would not ship the stock power pack.
The only issue is the $150 gouge for a $50-$70 power supply (being generous). The community will hack this over time and we'll likely not see Fanatec use this process again.
I did "hack" this with a few DIY options, uploaded a video just now: th-cam.com/video/wVgVxpWgBOM/w-d-xo.html
The CSL DD is meant to drop at 350 euro correct? At 8nms of peak torque its pretty close to a high-end belt driven wheel, why not just get that? I'm relatively new to sim racing I still use a g29 and I'm looking into either a thrustmaster TS-PC or a direct drive wheel.
Will be buying three base model and keeping an eye out for tested 3rd party alternatives.
feel free to use my affiliate link :-D
I wonder if it will be possible to find a larger power supply with matching specs of the boost power supply and solder the end off of the base power supply to it. May be a cheaper alternative. I doubt they’ll have any kind of detection circuitry involved other than looking at the input voltage.
I'm sure they will have detection circuitry on board.
No complaints out of me with the pricing structure. Since this video has posted, Fanatec finally announced the prices and you were right on the money with your guess. I'm not going to list the prices, they can be found at every site where there is an interest in the CSL DD.
Wading through Fanatec's wave strategy for releasing pre-orders, I went with the 8Nm kit. Hopefully the wheel does well enough at both price points where Fanatec would do the same thing with their next wheel base. They just need to better explain the duration of their pre-order waves. Other than that. Looking forward to the new wheel base.
As I said, it was an "educated" guess ;-)
Very good point. I will buy the 5Nm version and wait for a cheap 3rd party power brick option.
I don't think such a thing will exist. They sure will have a proprietary chip in the power brick. As I said in the video, this whole thing is not ~really~ about the power brick, it's essentially just a lock that you pay to unlock.
I saw a video where the ceo of fanatec was talking about the wheel and didn't want people to do the upgrade, he advice us too choose wisely beetwen one and another, he talked about environmental reasons
Another point is that when using higher quality components at the lower 5nm torque spec there would have to be less warranty claims vs the higher power output version. This also needs to be factord into the sales price.
I am probably getting (depending on the reviews) the base CSL DD with the base version of the new CSL pedals. Should be a decent upgrade to my t300rs gt and I generally like the idea that there is an upgrade path for later. I don’t feel tricked as long as the value for money is right. Seems to be the case with the new CSL gear. I am curious to see if they will also add a new wheel to the lineup. If not, I am getting the McLaren GT3 v2.
The mclaren is pretty great, perfect combo with the CSL DD I'd say.
Get the loadcell brake at least. You’ll never look back, promise
I can't escape the feeling people are like mindless zombies nowadays. If you wanna complain you should complain to Logitech or Thrustmaster for lagging waaay behind Fanatec, putting no fight whatsoever. There's just no competition on this market at this point. Fanatec is crushing it and the haters would complain about something even if Fanatec would be giving wheels away for free. I mean c'mon - a DD wheel for 350 and we're still gonna complain?! WTF is wrong with people?!
Warning!
Within 4 months of light use my FANATEC McLaren wheel cracked at the shifter pivot point and where it mounted to the QR. I was accused of over tightening although I used a torque wrench set at 3nm.
FANATEC then replaced the wheel chassis admitting in writing it was a weakness in the wheel.
Very soon after my CSL load cell pedal failed. I sent a video before sending the pedal set back as requested.
I was required to make a follow up email after not hearing back.
FANATEC said they can not fault the pedals asking if I want then sent back which I found a strange thing to ask?
Eventually they were returned however within minutes I experienced the same issue which was consistent with magnetic interference from the CSL DD wheel base before the load cell pedal would completely shut down.
I was beyond my limits at this point and driven to warn as many potential customers as I could while demanding a replacement.
Following the usual delayed response, FANATEC then offered a replacement only if a show proof that they faulty load cell was again on its way back to them.
FANATEC’s poor response time drove me to desperation.
Keep in mind I have owned this new product for around 6 months when 2 major failures occurred.
An electric technician overheard my experience and offered assistance.
I was able to demonstrate the issue and within minutes the technician diagnosed a defective voltage regulator attached to the load cell circuit board.
The voltage regulator is designed to reduce 5 volts coming from the wheel base or USB down to the required 3.3volts. There was no signal out of the regulator which he replaced.
No thanks to FANATEC I am now enjoying my sim racing again while I hold my breath for the next FANATEC failure.
Please take my advise and look at the FANATEC’s own forum in regards to all the issues they have and their terrible customer service.
This is very common practice for computer memory as well. Most ram support the max standard speed (not capacity just speed) and are detuned to lower mhz. 2666mhz ram and 3200mhz ram use the same hardware, the only difference is the programming on the spd chip.
Excellent analysis.
Regarding click bait titles: you're being completely disingenuous. Apologizing after for something you've deliberately decided to do is ridiculous and insulting to the viewer.
In today's social media viewing market few things are more annoying than vid. titles used to simply draw viewers in - the result has a negative - not positive impact regardless of the content.
Hehe, good analysis, BUT: I chose to put the clickbait title in simply cause I' using it in the video to make a point (note how the part about successful strategies and having nice things is mirrored in the conclusion of the video at the end). That's also why I apologize for it in the beginning -- I usually don't like using clickbaity titles, but here it served a point, so I did. Don't worry though, my next videos won't have overly clickbaity titles :-)
@@TheSimChannel Understood.
@@TheSimChannel Yup at first I was like damn I just got treated. Then at 6:30 he brought it back around and made it full circle on why he did what he did and I can't even be mad.
Get it together camera man!
Speedster 3 (1€+5,99€ parcel service) is quality, but sucks. I plan to watch the market and buy a CSL DD, but I don´t know, if the Collective Minds Drivehub can adapt the non-PLAYSTATION support one to become supported.
Thanks for the video. To be honest I think that the PSU's are built by a Shenzhen PSU company (not Fanatec) with exactly the same PCB layout with max. 3 parts different and considering the numbers they will buy from mentioned chinese PSU company / companies the BOM cost might be 1 to 2 Euros higher then the original PSU. Since the Plug has 4 pins, my guess is they have a sense line (could be as simple as different resistor values to ground) to differentiate between the PSU's in the firmware, so nobody is trying to just buy a stronger PSU from a third party. If they take more then ~100 Euro for a PSU that is basically just a strong laptop charger I wouldn't be to happy about the move.
You are missing the point....to give you a famous quote: "[...] there is no spoon." Meaning it's not about the price/PSU. It's about the fact that Fanatec is spreading the cost of development of this DD wheel to what would still be considered two products that share the same platform to make it feasible to sell a DD at the lower ~350 mark but for those who want a stronger base, including those who upgrade, they can still get it in the form of a ~100 extra cost. That is in contrast to having developed two individual models for the lower and mid range bases which would necessarily make them both more expensive than the one base with two "options" variant. That's a win no matter how you look at it....except if you're willing to lie to yourself otherwise... Simply put they've replaced the CSL and CSW with the same product at different Nm values and different cost, but did it so that they can replace it with a better technology and still be in the same ball-park with the pricing. I don't know how else to put it...
We dont know the cost of making a unit, but lets be honest, these are very cheap compared to any DD base.
My guess is that the base model is sold almost at a loss. So instead of selling you one product for quite a lot more to meet their profit margins, they sell you an upgradable unit and bet that you will upgrade it down the line and THEN make their profit. The 5NM ''version'' is still really good enough for a great variation of the CSL elite and is perfectly usable, but most might go for an upgrade down the line, once again, without the hassle of selling it and buying another one.
If it is what I think it is, I think its actually a genius business model, added to everything that was said in the video.
Really dislike the general overtones of Fanatec somehow ripping customers off. There is a huge demand for what they offer and they make good products, they should get as much value out of what they sell as possible. The consumer isn't owed anything... there are plenty of other (and cheaper) wheel brands to choose from. If you don't like the price model or upgrade tactics, choose a different brand. Easy.
What about the overprice? Maybe everything together would have cost about 450 currency. Still a good price, cheaper than it is now, and a pretty good offer for a dd wheel.
I understand the commercial strategy, and I know this is a business, but I think Fanatec thinks customers are idiots. I see this similar to the DLC politics in videogames. I sell a product not completly developed at the price of a full one, and if you want all the features you must pay some more.
I don't agree with your point of view, though I think it is well constructed.
Regards.
So just wondering.. What is actually the limiting aspect in this case? Is it the power supply? Cause I can figure out a way to supply way more amps/Volts or whatever necessary to ANY box.. I build most of my motion stuff myself and even though I just 'bought' a CSL elite back in Dec, I am open to the DD offering here.. Anyone can sling some advice my way.. Thanks DMAX motion Sim
I'm assuming there will be a chip on board the beefier power supply that unlocks the higher torque setting much like the torque key. More power alone won't do it, which is why I said it's an artificial feature lock.
@@TheSimChannel Well, I'm still planning on getting one.. Taking a next step which is not very expensive compared to the other DD's. Thanks for replying.. A lot of channels don't even check their messaging.. I'm going to sub to your channel cause you tell it like it is.. Thanks my friend! DMAX motion Sim
@@DMAX_DIY Thanks, nice to hear. The telling it like it is thing is something I'm definitely going for, good to see it recognized!
You make a fair point i am very much interested in this wheel and was just looking at the booster pack price. €150 for a power supply really ? Thats crazy honestly.
Base 5Nm torque’ll crank me up by 100% from my g29, so... I don’t mind. Mind you, it’s PEAK torque they state, not average torque. I wonder if higher torque might also mean higher wear&tear. It usually does in mechanics, but I’m not sure if that applies to dd motors
I brought this up in another conversation. It's a fanless design as well, so I imagine it will also run hotter.
My take on it is that this is a volume product. They are going to sell thousands of these things and thousands of the boosters. My gripe is with the amount of e-waste this tactic is going to make. Think of all of those powersupplies with no wheelbases that are just going to go to landfills because they have no purpose. I used to not care about this stuff, but nowadays it is starting to bother me more and more. For reference, I don't throw things out that still work, and I'm still using my fanatec Porsche turbo s wheel base from ten years ago or more.
I'm with you on that. Got some ideas, you might like them... will just need a few weeks hopefully ;-)
Ayyyy another fanatec porsche pwts user 👍 still using mine till now.. Cant see myself upgrading till my pwts dies
Depends. If they sell the 8nm option as new and then you don't have the 5nm PSU it makes no difference. They will soon see the pattern in sales and manufacture PSUs in numbers according to demand
@@ravey1981 that is the logical thing yes. But look how they ship their wheel bundles, you get three separate packages. I think it is possible that they sell a dd + booster bundle, but you get the base csl dd box with a second booster kit box. That is the most simple and streamlined way of doing it, and Fanatec tends to choose the most simple and streamlined way of doing things.
I guess you miss the point of how much more will it cost. And will it be even possible to directly buy the product with the more powerful PSU. If not it’s stupid to provide useless PSUs. And of course last point will it be unlocked with a third party PSU or will it be charged a different price. Do you think it ‘d be ethical for a medical monitoring device?
Fanatec already answered in a German forum that they will be shipping upgrade bundles with only one PSU.
@@eXo173 nice to know thank you. We’ll see then how much more it will cost.
My question is that if they are selling the base model at such a low margin, surely they need to charge over the normal margin for the upgrade to offset that? Which means it really feels like the people who buy the upgraded PSU are subsidizing the people who don't.
@@goodlookinouthomie1757 in a way it can seen as an extra dedicated to “enthusiasts” to be ready to mindfully overpay for a beefier PSU. The CSLDD seems to be about feedback detail, not strength.
It would be easy to buy an inexpensive power supply and modify the connector to use it with the DD and get the 8nm. Problem solved.
To be honest, I'll still buy it in replacement of my G920. It will still do a better job than the Logitech. But, nice video!
Oh man, you’ll definitely see a difference. Definitely buy it.
@@ErickBRSAO Yeah, I think it too.
Don't worry some smart kid will figure out a way to bypass the softlock and run it with a bigger psu 😏
I wouldn't even hesitate to unluck mine (when i get one)😑
It's not really a softlock from what I can tell, just the way the 90W vs. the 180W PSU is wired: th-cam.com/video/wVgVxpWgBOM/w-d-xo.html
@@Polymer Even better 🙌
@@FullFledged2010 Indeed. Basically just slap any correctly wired 24V/200W power supply on a 5 N·m CSL DD and you get 8 N·m! 👍👍👍
That's an interesting point of view. However, I cannot see how aftermarket PSUs wouldn't happen, unless they did invest in a very fancy proprietary copy-proofing device. "Wasting" money in the development process. Which would bring us back to the milking theory. (maybe not that expensive; it could be but an encoded chip in the PSU unlocking the full powa).
Furthermore, I can already foresee most reviews going like "if you can afford the upgrade, then go for it, it makes it SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCH MOWWWWWWWWWW BETTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW". It's like they're already up in the universe, just waiting to happen down here. So the 350 tag would be but a catch, and the real price would be the 8NM upgrade.
Gotta bring those 3rd party PSU on.
Sorry, I'm dragging on. Very nice point of view, I reiterate.
I don’t think an aftermarket PSU will do the trick. Maybe with some modding and potential loss of warranty.
@@eXo173 Why? Power is power, no matter its origin. As long as voltage, phasing and current are right, it could come from a potato for what the device cares.
@@EddieOtool I am sure Fanatec will implement some sort of protection to prevent the use of a third party PSU.
@@eXo173 Yeah, that is what I expect as well, as per my original post.
Try putting a 3rd party battery into an iPhone. It's possible, but only with specialist tools and knowledge so as to not make it worthwhile.
Nice video and really good points. Apologies for my English is my second language. This price and marketing strategies have pro and cons. As customer is really good because as you said in the video, give consumers the opportunity to upgrade in the future without doing to much. I have degree in Economics and my problem with marketing strategy is the people will have issue with a power supply the cost $150, 1/3 of the cost of DD base and they know the cost for producing this power supply is no more $50. If you buy Csl DD with 8nm power supply they don't send you the 5nm power supply. Where is you value here? Everyday people are more educated and I think Fanatec with this price strategy is playing with people and thinking people are dumb. My opinion is Fanatec will sell much more 5nm than 8nm Csl DD. Again I am not against this marketing strategies I think have pro and cons. As economist I love it because I want to see if works.
Regards,
Alfonso
Why people feel scammed is because they’re clearly selling fully capable hardware to the customer for $350. But a $10-$20 difference in power supply units merits a $150 up charge just to unlock the full power of the unit you already bought for $350.
Do you think they’re taking a loss on the base dd unit? I doubt it. They’re just raking in money on the booster pack and doubling profit margins.
Why didn't sell the 5nm as a "csl dd 5nm" and the 8nm as a club sport dd 8nm. That would end the confusion and the complaints.
hmm if you think about it for a while you can come up with several reasons why they didn't do that :)
I disagree with the car engine example, because if there are more then one engine with the same displacement and different power levels, mostly the internal parts are not the same. For example the BMW 116, 118 and 120 engine use different metal alloys for pistons and cylinders for each configuration.
...and the CSL DD uses different power supplies ;-) plus still, the engines are *mostly* the same even if not completely. as a buyer of a 116i nobody complains that the price jump to the 120i is much higher than the use of a different metal alloy in some parts alone would justify.
@@TheSimChannel btw one option would also be, that the csl dd would be only available at 8nm and raise the price a bit for the more expensive psu and call it a deal. The 8nm user will pay for the 5nm user right now. But i have a different opinion on fanatecs prices anyway.
@@C42ST3N well, of course they COULD do that, but it wouldn't make economical sense to do that. The 8Nm "version" is certainly superior to any belt or gear driven wheel base on the market, and with that kind of value in the product they'd just be giving away money. And no company wants to give away money like that, especially not when they're publicly traded. I promise you, had they opted to sell it as 8Nm only, it would have to be priced at 500 EUR/USD just as well (from an economical standpoint). Because it would be replacing the 8nm belt-driven CSW2.5 which sold pretty well at 550 EUR/USD. So at 500, the 8nm CSL DD is already better and cheaper than the CSW2.5 (which sold well and didn't even have many serious competitors). BUT having the cheapest wheel base in your line-up be a 500 EUR/USD model will stop a lot of buyers from getting into the Fanatec eco system at all, so they kinda need a cheaper entry into the system. And now Fanatec has two choices: Spend an enourmous amount of money and man-power on developing an even lower-end wheel base OR selling the CSL DD in a cut down version for 350 EUR/USD. For Fanatec the latter option is cheaper, and for customers... well they now have a direct drive wheel base at 350 EUR/USD _AND_ on top of that they can upgrade to 8nm later without much effort. For many students or people in poorer countries that's really good news, cause these people often struggle to dish out 500 EUR/USD in one piece.
mhh yes, this was a bit long.
@@TheSimChannel As long as we have not tested the CSL DD, we don´t know how good it actually is. My guess is, it will be good for the money, but as i said before we actually don´t know how sensetive it is, which is really important as you know. I guess they used the 350 Dollar version as a marketing strategy to get people on board and actually earn most of the money with the 8nm kit , as a high amount of people will upgrade to the 8nm sooner or later. And you are right, the strategy is to get people as soon as possible into their system, so the chances are even lower that they will get out of it at some point. From a company point of view this makes sense, but for the customer its not ideal. Its true that they have options to get third party wheels on their bases but look at those prices. The podium hub was set at a price higher then the formula v1 was, which was a QR WITH a complete wheel attached. Because of this, you pay fanatec the money they would earn with a wheel anyway even if you leave their system. Those things bother me actually.
@@C42ST3N Then your point would be that having an eco-system isn't exactly user-friendly, and that their prices are really high / high margins. These are two separate points of discussion though, and as a matter of fact I also find many of their prices to be quite high. One could expand this into a discussion about the whole company, their pricing strategy and so on, but that is a really complex topic in comparison. For example, while the margins may be high, they do give them the opportunity to develop purpose-built direct drive motors for sim racing that can then be produced at low enough cost to be sold at 350€/$. So how high of a margin is ok? What other costs do they need to cover with that? How much do they need to be able to grow (in terms of number of employees etc.) in order to give us even more nice products in the future? And last but not least, let's not forget they're a publicly traded company that afaik _has_ to do what they can to maximize profits (with some obvious exceptions).
Maybe I should add that despite having worked there (as I think you know), I'm not in the business of defending them. My point in this vid was just that from a customer's perspective I don't see the CSL DD pricing as unfair in any way (but I'm open to changing my opinion if I hear a good argument!).
Now there are certainly things to criticize about Fanatec, and I am collecting my thoughts on that for an idea that I have... but more on that in a few weeks I guess ;-)
I mean people look at it with a glass half empty I'm looking at it as a glass half full I thijk they are onto great things I guess people don't understand how profit is made or how some comapnies make over 200% on there items yeah thats right I mean you aren't just buying 1 thing in it there is much mroe I to this including software like nobody thinks about the man hours or the brain of this machine the wheel is solid its made of good materials to top it off and imo if thrustmaster can charge 550 for a belt wheel and even 700 at launch for a belt them you need to go attack them because this is a much higher end wheel and you can grt the entire setup for 800 with a rim and pedals and the boost kit I think that's an amazing buy I mean 350 for just the base and 480 if you want the boost kit I get people could be upset about it but it's still priced fantastic and it's a nice little machine I think its priced right can't just bring up one thing inside that cost less for them to do and forget about the rest lol it isn't 1 piece that makes this thing run haha
🤔well played…
Great video! As someone with a hazy understanding of economics it really shows their brilliance, I was actually happy to make this my first wheel, and eventually upgrade it to a beefier unit.
It's the rim, pedals and rig that make me question which direction to go in. I like minimalism, the ability to stow away a rig I ain't using all the time would be great, but don't know any solid setups that would handle the torque while deployed and fold up neatly away.
Check out the following: GT Omega Apex, Next Level Racing DD wheel stand or the new Sim Lab wheel stand. (If you choose GT Omega, feel free to buy via my affiliate link :)).
I'm very salty when it comes to Fanatec. I bought a V2 base 6 years ago and it was dead on arrival, went in for repair twice under warranty and still has problem's to this day. The only reason I'm conciering this base is to recoup my investment on the shifter, pedals, wheel and the $2000 on the rig and seat.......(100hours use only, over six years)
Imagine a world where Fanatec does not make artificial product segmentation and sells only the CSL 8 Nm for approx 420.
Imagine a world where Porsche sells the 911 Turbo for 60k and Apple sells the iPhone for 300. That's just wishful thinking. But with the pricing announced today, those 480 for the 8nm version aren't too far off of your wish, are they?
Still the fact remains that virtually all mass-produced products on sale today are (a) priced with a substantial margin, and (b) priced according to their position in the market. Fanatec has a good reason to beat their competiton in value-for-money, but once they're doing that there is little incentive to go ridiculusly low. If this wheel base is anywhere near as good as I think it is, Fanatecs 480 EUR offering will right out wipe the floor with any product by Logitech or Thrustmaster (even those priced higher). Going lower would most likely not make economical sense. And if that's the issue at stake, the conversation is no longer about this product or Fanatec, then it's about the principles of capitalism. That sure is a conversation worth having, but it's not what this video was about ;-)
@@TheSimChannel thanks for the reply. I guess I just viewed Fanatec as being more consumer oriented than those companies. Apple is endlessly criticized for their pricing and Porsche is a luxury brand that very few people can ever dream of purchasing. Not exactly the same categories of product.
Furthermore, I don’t have a problem with the actual price of the wheel base or the margin practiced by Fanatec. The issue is that Fanatec is subsiding the 5 Nm version by overcharging the 8 Nm just to have a 350€ entry price. With this artificial price structure, existing customers (who are more likely to go for the 8 Nm) feel like they are paying more in order for Fanatec to acquire new customers at the low price point. I don’t know if this is a good strategy in the long term.
Its a cash grab if i ever did see one 150€ +VAT for a PSU that's worth 35€ and i doubt that they are selling the 350 "low power" version a ta loss. It is however their choice to do so, the extra power seems to make a big difference but the "deal" leaves a pretty sour taste in my mouth. so much so, that im prepared to go for the low power version and wait for someone to sell 180W psu that works
That is the way to make money. And still 500 euros for a direct drive wheel with 8nm isn’t that bad
I don't think it is a problem when they charge what it costs. If we have another World where the charge 350 for the 5NM version, and lets sys the 5NM PSU goes for 50 and the 8NM PSU for 80, I think ths is somewhat realistic, and they sell the 8NM Wheel version for 380, then all where happy. But the don't do that, they the pack another 100 bucks on top just becaus. Don't get me wrong, the 480 price is still awesome for todays competition and Fanatec has to make profit after all, not really important from where that come, but If it's obviously for the customers that the production cost vs. selling prices is so poorly balanced then it has a bitter taste. If they distribute the profit better, lets say 389 vs. 429 (i know the average is lower but I bet they sell more 5NM version), then "no one" gets angy becaus everybody understand that the beefier PSU has to be somewhat more expensive.
I keep seeing people saying this psu is going to be like 50 bucks. Theres no way it's gonna be that cheap. I'm thinking 150 or more. But look at it this way. Its a dd with a payment plan. For 350 down you get the base and it works then you get the rest of it when you pay it off
it's gonna be fairly close to 150, yes. some seem to think that when you buy a product you pay what it costs to produce it + 10% and if it's anything more than that they feel betrayed. but that just not how things work...
The most consumer-friendly option would have been to only sell one model which is capable of 8Nm for $379.99. There's no need for the 5Nm model at all -- you can always dial it down in the software if you prefer less torque. Just ship it with the better power supply and be done with it. This formula would not have raised any eyebrows at all within their customer base (i.e., no bad press), and they would still be making plenty of profit -- potentially even more profit depending on how many people actually decide to pony up $150 for a power supply. I understand why they did what they did -- I'm just saying there were other options.
It should be clear that no company will just sell a product at the lowest price possible and give up on those profits just for the sake of it. The realistic "one product scenario" would be an 8Nm CSL DD at 480 Euros, anything else is just wishful thinking. Starting from there, I think it's good that they added a 5Nm option at 350 for those who can't easily afford a 480 Euro wheel base.
@@TheSimChannel
There'd obviously be profit to be had at the price point I mentioned... and they'd also sell many more units. Unless you're suggesting that they're selling the 5 Nm option at a loss, and I'd say there's a zero percent chance that's the case. It's a PR issue and an issue of economics. They obviously made their decision and it's no skin off my back either way. I was just suggesting that there were other options to explore... and they probably did.
pay now or pay later . later always cost more .
In all other cases mentioned Fanatec would win more and suffer from less complaining...
Nice to see you around here :)
I ordered the 5nm version, I'll probably buy the boost-kit (or perhaps a non-official 180w psu, who knows what shows up) later on. If I like the 8nm much better, well it's just €20 euro difference and I have a spare psu ... if I don't see much value in it, I can just sell it on.
I just want to go fast, I'm not after the most realistic immersion where I need to fight the wheel. I don't even have my current T300 crancked to the max (and that one is just below 5nm i think)
By default, what Fanatec are saying/promoting is, 'we want you to buy the base model and amazon a bog standard power supply for cheap.' Most power supplies come with a standard connector and work across many products. The only caveat to is that they could be b******s like Sony were some years ago where they had a weird integrated software lock to stop you buying aftermarket li-on batteries on their devices. They could also build in more obsolescence by making an odd non-industry standard power connector so you have to buy an adaptor (cough Apple). All in all, us consumers should not stand for peasantry like this and companies trying this in the future will be sure to guarantee they go bust sooner rather than later.
I think many just want Fanatec to be more upfront about the strategy behind their pricing, rather than milk a whole lotta hype for cheap pricing that won't apply to the majority of customers who will want to 8nm upgrade. Fanatec gets all the praise for the cheapest DD product but at the same time sells most of the wheel bases and rims for not much less than a Simagic DD package. It's a bit disingenuous.
I think people just need to wrap their head around the fact that in today's world product pricing is much more about "overall value" in comparison to competitor products, and a reflection of supply and demand, than it is about production cost of a product.
You missed the one important alternative: Just don't segment it and just offer the 8nm model. It is in the end still the same product category: a csl base. Now we have a "csl -" and a "csl +" model. So your defending artificially segmenting a product line by giving examples that only support segmenting it to begin with. As most argue that the psu "upgrade" is only worth 10-20$ it makes no sense to offer a 5nm version, which will cost 100-150$ to upgrade to 8nm. In the sense of micro chips segmenting absolutely makes sense, because you have yields and failure rates, it is about maximizing the usage of your production, this does not apply to this product. Economy of scale also does not apply to the csl dd base, the base is always the same just an accessory changes, which is a low tech commodity product anyway, which already follows the economy of scale. Nobody would have complained, if the 8nm was 400-450€ it would still be an awesome price. Now we have a: electronic waste, b: fanatec producing or ordering two kinds of psu, c: more packaging, postage, d: people probably paying more for the 8nm version than they would, if fanatec only released the 8nm version. People don't hate the product, the marketing and pricing strategy is just anti consumer. All the examples you gave are criticized as well for good reasons, environmentally and monetary. Also: these arguments are not raging, i don't see the point in trying to diminish arguments with this false assumption, if you want to have a discussion.
His argument makes sense in view of modern marketing techniques, where 350 is a very impressive sticker for a DD, very much more so than 400.
By saying so, I don't mean to defend nor legitimate, but rather just explain and understand. Furthermore, that the resulting product is useable or not remains to be seen.
In my opinion, the price for the 8nm version would have been the same if only this version existed since it will be in the CSW range performance wise. Fanatec is just saving the effort to design an independent CSL wheelbase while offering an upgrade path (= potential additional revenue at a later point in time for them) and lowering the financial entry barrier for the DD technology.
Agreeing with all of your views and also, the upgrade path could have been to a ps4/5 compatible model. The 8nm model for 350 and say 400 for the ps4/5 model. Now at least I would assume that the ps4/5 model is going to be even more if you also want 8nm.
I have figured it out.
The people who pay to unlock will essentially be subsidizing the people who do not.
If all these freeloaders really want the full 8 Nm this bad just buy the power supply from a third party making sure it has the same specs lmao it’s just a psu
its scamming way
to prevert the competition....how about me annoucing a $25 direct drive,
and
just keep delaying the product, one way or another...
Not sure you understand economics. Or product development. Easy solution for you: don't buy it.
Fanatec makes some other shit about their products. Generally, Fanatec bases owners don't know their bases don't work without Fanatec wheels or... Fanatec Hubs. All people I asked say they didn't read that specific info anywhere. And .. yes, they are kidnapping part of the DD torque. You must pay to free it. That's a nasty move.
Oh does Fantec owe you that wheel performance? Product developers should fully exploit the best of the product then turn around and give away the value built into their effort? If you can't afford it, go buy a Logitech 🙄
@@scottmeredith3359 Well consider this. The people who don't pay to unlock will get the same product for less money - and the people who do will be funding them to do it.
5nm for 350 with the benefits that a DD brings is great value. 8nm for 500 is also great value. Pay your money and make your choice. I actually think the way fanatec are doing this is brilliant. Allows DD wheels for pretty much anyone while still leaving an upgrade path.
DD for under 500 euro.... I don't care if the pricing model is stupid. 500 euro is still cheaper than any other DD.
Dont forget to add approx £100 in the UK ,,,,as this is the import tax charge since brexit......I just payed £80 extra on v3 pedals...GOODBYE FANATEC
Well, hard to blame Fanatec for that one though. But I'm feeling sorry for everyone who voted against Brexit, it's tough to watch a country shoot itself in the foot like that. Thoughts and prayers.
Are you going to tell us to get a colonoscopy too? Or to stop smoking and drinking? 🤣🤣🤣
The CSL DD will be a loss leader. They'll make profit off the booster/wheels and getting people into the Fanatec ecosystem.
I believe economists call it "sidecar profits". Sell a printer at a small loss but earn a large profit margin on the replacement ink cartridges.
I understand their logic, but they could also sell PSU + base 5Nm to 350 or PSU + base 8Nm to 400 and they do the same job as now, they don't duplicate production or anything at all ... they might want to get more money or is it that some Germans see the very square planet?
Lol
Fanatec is the greatest thing for sim racing ever.
I can't shake the feeling that we are sleepwalking into a world of Free 2 Play micro-transactioned hardware...
I love the transition between your clickbait title and the topic lol. But i totally agree, i've seen this before in form of adapters e.g. But now Fanatec blew it. Why pay 130 extra for 3nm that the wheel base can handle already, it's not even something they have you to send your base in for example in order to change it. But in the end there is probably still no other wheel base with such a good price for what you get still beating the CSW 2.5.
I dont care what fanatec does but im frustrated that Fanatec wants to make millions it seems like before they will release the Playstation/PC version. Its a proven FACT that there are more Playstation owners then there are xbox but yet fanatec always releases the damn xbox version first. How long u guys think it will be before there is a Playstation csl/dd?? 1 year 2 years?
thats because for playstation you need an extra chip in the wheel base, while for xbox you don't. for xbox the chip needs to be in the wheel rims, and those already exist.
You are making too many valid arguments supported by easy to understand analogies. Stop it!
Yeah, right? Where's demagogy all of a sudden?
5nm for 350 with the benefits that a DD brings is great value. 8nm for 500 is also great value. Pay your money and make your choice. I actually think the way fanatec are doing this is brilliant. Allows DD wheels for pretty much anyone while still leaving an upgrade path.
yes, that was my point, might have gone under a little :-)
Just build/supply it as an 8nm device - simples.
The fact that Fanatec are producing 2 different models (the difference being the PSU) is in fact costing us the buyers. Fanatec have had to purchase & hold in stock 2 different power supplies, produce 2 lots of advertising, produce 2 lots of packaging etc has costs...those costs are passed on to the purchaser (and it won't be a 'cost' but with an extra profit thrown in at that.
Just build/supply it as an 8nm device - simples.
I just found out the boosted kit, which is just an 180W PSU is Euro 149.95! Anyone can buy a PSU of the same rating for around 50 Euro (80+ on RS online), now you know how you are being taken for a ride by Fanatec, oh and you are left with a 'spare' 90W psu if you 'upgrade' at a later date because Fanatec don't give you a trade in eh ;)
Shopped for a new car lately? Whiners can just stick to what they have for free, or move to North Korea. I'm sure they have a nice selection of sim rigs in the PC shops.
Sorry, logic is so 1950s..
You mean using logic in general? It's not very common in todays world for sure.
maybe maybe you are full of it! nobody is against pricing model that make sense! have a powersupply from 90 to 180 that cost 1/3 as much as the base itself is simply not smart marketing! If I were the marketing manager, the DD will be price at $399 for the 90w ps and $449 for the 180 ps! problem solved and the pricing model actually make sense and not create a aftermarket PS business!
This video is a joke. Did you try it, or is just bullshit talk? Shame
It’s just a gimmick that will cost you $50-$100 for a $12 PSU.
Probably $150
Liberals must steer away from sim racing!
T300 / tx vs ts xw/ tspc/t gt comes to mind for me....a DD wheel 8nm at 400.00 ( considering the Logitech g923 is the same price ) is a fantastic deal!!! End of story!!! Can't wait!!!!
I think the price for the booster kit will be ~150 EUR/USD, so the 8Nm version would go for 500. But still, at that price it should kick some serious butt. However, that's just for the wheel base. The Logitech wheel comes with a rim, pedals and shifter, so it's not exactly comparable.
@@TheSimChannel true, but at the same time, youre forced to buy the whole kit and I don't think it comes with the shifter....so if your upgrading from g29, tx, t300 ...imo, DD is a no brainer.... best buy just dropped the price of g923 plus pedals to 349.00 usd from 400....
@@lilpup316 not really an upgrade from a g29 unless you already have usb pedals. You can't use Logitech pedals standalone. And I think only a couple of the thrustmaster pedals can be used via USB. So for those folks, you still looking at ~$1000usd to get into the setup.
@@7MBoosted good point. Guess cause I'm already in Fanatec ecosystem, it's a no brainer for me. Didn't think about a wheel, pedals or shifter buying straight off the rip. Looking at the cheapest way possible, csl dd plus a wheel, and pedals ( non load cell ) 650 to 700 USD. So almost double the price for triple the product. Still worth it imo!!