Good for building fitness for 1 event, but it’s not great for building long term or “deep” fitness. Also there’s a big focus on always needing to increase FTP.
Thanks for the video Dylan. I've been a TR user for more than 5 years and had great success with their plans. Not saying it's the best way, buts it's worked well enough that I've continued. Have been including more endurance work in my training for the last 12 months though so not following the plans strictly at the moment.
Also, I think that TR’s main target audience is the beginner cyclist who’s getting into structured training and has 1 or maybe 2 events a year. That used to be me. Once I wanted to focus on having fitness to perform for a season of races, and wanted to see actual improvement year over year, I switched to working with a coach. TR is good, but there’s better ways to train if you’re not looking to “get fast quick”.
I have tried them, can’t get through them. Living in Michigan I need trainer time in the winter and I still prefer TR over Zwift… but I make my own workouts or pick and chose there workouts as needed. Great video. I had always wondered about other people and there experience with their plans. Thank you!
I'm an old(er) cyclist who used to amateur road race in the 80's, training "traditionally", with lots of and lots of miles of easy seat time before race season and incorporating two interval (formerly called fartlek or speedplay) sessions a week . I LOVED cycling and had some success back in the day. Fast forward 35 years and wanting to get back into cycling seriously, if not competitively, well masters maybe, I signed up for Zwift , Trainer Road, Sufferfest and used the tools of the internet to catch right up and it seems Dylan is spot on. I thought decades of time and science would have improved training by now, but every program I tried, I burned out and burned out within weeks and I dreaded getting on the bike for the next session. Yes age is a big factor, but I also saw the low intensity, long miles that was specifically "not recommended" in Trainer Road (considered the most serious of the training programs) and against my better judgement thought oh they must know better because, well, it's been 35 years. Well sometimes, when something works, it works, even if it's old school. Just get out and ride for the love of riding. The rest will follow. I do love power meters though!
I don’t think it is fair to say Trainer Road consider “long easy base mile” not recommended. Though it is the thing that you would forgo if you don’t have time. On their latest podcasts, Chad was recommending people on their low volume plan do low intensity base ride during off days (half an hour, 45 minutes, however long you have time to put in), as long as these rides doesn’t compromise proper training sessions. It’s my first season with them. I am trying their low volume Sweet Spot Base at the moment. Mostly because with the lock down, home education of 3 kids and everything, I can hardly put a session longer than an hour in to ride. Given my modest fitness, I don’t feel the SSB plan is tiring me out (admittedly, I am not doing GYM at the moment. Those does change the balance). I am trying to supplement with these low intensity ride during off days. That said, looking at Trainerroad’s high volume SSB, some of the stuff I see there definitely doesn’t make sense and are receipt for burn out. It almost felt like they start off with low intensity SSB and just expanded it out with the extra hours. I kind of felt low volume SSB is sort of “cheat code”, and there will be consequences. For me, it’s not important to find out the optimal training method (well,I know it by following this channel), because I can’t put the hours in to do that. What’s important is find what’s best giving the time I can put in, and to understand the trade off with the cheat code.
I've been racing mtb xc and some road through my 40's and 50's and retired last year at 60. Having the extra time and energy I've gone back to the basics to what I too learned 35 years ago. Lately I've spent 3-4 months in zone one doing long rides and getting the weekly time above 12 hours a week. It still works!
Not to mention that cycling in Z1 / Z2 is actually ENJOYABLE! So having 2 to 3 really fun and enjoyable rides every week builds your love of the bike and breaks the ‘I’ve got to crush my cranks every time’ mental habit.
I think they're even proud of having really hard training plans. As a matter of fact it's just stupid. But I don't fully agree with your conclusion: just go out and ride and the rest will follow. When you are a competitive athlete this approach is not sufficient enough. You need a well(!) structured training. You need to overcharge yourself to gain maximum fitness. But you have to do it gradually and carefully. Doing 3 or 4 or even 6 interval trainings per week surely is the wrong way.
Thank you!!! The science has always backed up a more polarized training schedule for endurance athletes. As a mom of two very fast high school girls it has taken time to convince my kids that in order to go fast you must learn to go slow. It is in large part your videos and Joe Friel’s books that finally convinced them. As a result, my 17 year old won the state championships here in Utah for Varsity girls by 3 minutes and she was one of the few on the line that had not hired a professional coach. Now we have a coach helping her to get ready for nationals who tried to convince her that sweetspot was the way to go. Your video today was just what she needed. The training schedule will remain polarized! Thank you for having the courage to put this video out today, it needs to be said.
Great achievements! Congrats. By the way, coaches do need an idea, a product and a hype... sweet spot is a hype: fact. It does work, but not everyone and it goes get people burnout.
TrainerRoad seems to have taken your criticisms to heart - the app is now very aggressive with their adaptations to avoid too much training stress, and has created what they call “Masters Plans” that prioritize more recovery. Would love to see you do an updated analysis with the new changes!
I think they were always headed in this direction it was just really complicated to mesh that with a neural net trained on 1000s of athletes training and having it both suggest and adapt plans and also react to overloading stress with off days and z2 and 1 'endurance' or off days. Now that they have it, it'd be cool if Dylan re-reviewed it, but I don't think he will; he's a coach, and well.. trainer road is their profession's stable diffusion. It's basically already to the point of being better in a lot of ways than a 200-dollar-a-month personal coach, for 20 bucks, it's far more reactive, and it now gets the basics correct its pretty existential to these guys way of life post racing.
**Shots fired** Edit now that I've watched the video: Dylan, excellent video. It's a challenging topic and is directly critical of a major training platform for competitive cyclists. But you speak to something that comes up in their podcast, and comes up with frequency within various threads in the TR forum (e.g., threads on the benefits of their traditional base plans or threads on Maffetone-style training): that their plans are super sweet spot heavy, and that that's often (always?) suboptimal. And you do so in a way that's careful and pretty respectful. Nate, Amber, Coach Chad, Jonathan, and the others are doing amazing things for training with power. I like their platform, and love many of their workouts. I'll keep subscribing because of that and because I see it as a worthwhile proxy for supporting the excellent podcast. But I don't do their SSB plans, and you provide deeply factual and well-researched reasons on why those plans are problematic. Now it just remains to be seen if and how TR responds to this video. (I hope they do so humbly and with research and focus on what's best for athletes.) Thank you for the research (!) and for posting!
I love TR and their podcast. It’s taken me from a decent age grouper to back of the pack professional and I am self coached. But I agree with you 100%. I have tried their plans 2x and on both occasions, I was fried after 1 month. Instead, I pick and choose my workouts from their library and do my own thing based on the science and how my body is absorbing training.
Have you noticed that lately, they're talking about minimum dose required to achieve adaptation? I think they're adjusting constantly and will get better and better. I'm very sure they're committed to doing the best they can.
Its Z2 of the 3 zone model this study in this video references. TR use 88-95% of FTP for SS, I know other places that use 83-93%. 20min at 95% must be hard
@@redcliffsrider Hahaha ahahahaha haha. No1 Dylan can't have gone through every paper possible in a 12 min vid so there will be conflicting evidence No2 I assume trainer road have based their training plans on some sort of evidence No3 I also don't rate trainer road and thing it's not a good product but it's interesting to hear other people's opinions otherwise you never progress in life if you only hear things that confirm your opinion
I've switched to polarized training based on your earlier videos. That helped me understand that the TR sweet spot plans were too much for me. I still use TR for the library of workouts, but my training plan is based on polarized training. Thanks for the video DJ.
I have no experience with trainer road and no connection to them. You have some good points but I'm wondering what your definition of "high intensity" is? It seems like you assume all interval training is high intensity? Imo intervals can be done in tempo and sweet spot and those are not perse HIGH intensity. (I think high intensity is around ftp or above) So doing 4 or 5 days of intervals in a week is not the same as 4-5 days HIT, right? My experience with mid intensity (tempo and sweet spot) many times a week (intervals but not high intensity in my definition) is actually very good. I think the science is not always a good reference to a general rider. Is there (i didn't check but your all in it so I'm asking) any science/studies on multiple months of training in tempo/sweet spot vs polarized? (Most studies are 6-8 weeks, but that's more effective for HIT and than the results flattens out. Sweet spot or tempo training could be slower response but higher final result after many months?) Would be cool to share thoughts about this sometime!🤙
I can give you my opinion on The Sufferfest. Their workouts are incomprehensible. They have no meaning name, they use their own zone model without any explanations, they are stochastic so you don't know if you do a long or a short intervals, and some of them focus on really strange thing (do I really need to train to pedal with only one leg ???). Their plans don't give enough time to Z1 (from the 3 zone model), but they are closer to a polarized approach. You can't move their workout on their calendar and they are not designed to be done outdoor (you should do 100% indoor if you want to follow them), so I don't thing anybody can follow them.
Xert does carry a number of Sweet Spot workouts. One of their podcasts suggests that Sweet Spot can be effective if your LTP and TP are relatively close. If not, stay away. See 28:35 and 37:15 from this podcast. soundcloud.com/baronbiosys/episode-6-how-to-reach-your-goals-without-a-training-plan
+1 I noticed the Xert screenshot and was about to ask about this. I really like thr platform and wonder if you'd recommend the adaptive training advisor rather than a very rigid/ prescriptive plan.
@@bikeMalach That's a key aspect that's lacking in this discussion. The answer isn't one size fits all. I can do low SST at LTP HR. Others can't. Makes a difference what you can recover from.
I have been using TR for 4 years, had great success given I was new to structured training but I agree it feels like too much after a couple of months (base+build, mid and high volume). I always crashed and burn toward the end of build and sometimes decide to stop training until I get my motivation back. In terms of gain, those plans were great but after I used Dylan's 12+ hours plan recommendation (at most 2 high intensity, then the rest in Z2) I made even bigger gain and burnout went out of the door. My strategy is always to start with their plans and swap some of their workouts. Still, I credit them for most of my gains and getting me to be disciplined on the bike. Thanks for making this video, I had been meaning to ask about clarification on whether sweetspot qualifies as high intensity.
@DylanJohnsonCycling congrats on your Unbound Gravel performance! I enjoyed this TR review, very informative. Any chance you could do another updated review 3 years on from this one? Thanks
I agree 100%. As a trainerroad user since 2011 or so, I have always modified or made up my own plan by substituting in zone 1/2 workouts and only doing 2 hard workouts per week. This is especially critical when you factor in that most people are doing TR in the off season (winter) and so weight training also has to added in. Trying to do the MV or HV and lift heavy within the same week, week after week, is a recipe for self destruction. Knowing your limits and recovery ability is critical. Any vanilla plan which is made to fit 1000's of riders is not individualized, and therefore not specific to you. Also, TR really struggles to fit in older riders (60+ or so), which is an indication of the weaknesses in its structure which you alude to. Can't wait for the TR response next week! 😭
@@Northwindbreeze this year's all messed up. I'm not in the gym this year and don't race anymore. But in the past I always lifted heavy/low reps in Jan/Feb, after mid Oct/Nov/Dec working on form and getting ready for heavy work. Then in March I would stop legs and focus on the first races in early March. Rest of the year was just gym 2xwk doing maint, low weight/higher reps, but much legs. After not lifting in 2020 (just some KB's) , I know getting back in the gym will be painful and kill my riding for a few weeks.
I reluctantly went into the traditional base plan despite the recommendation and it was way better than the SSB plans I did before. Definitely valid criticisms and I’m excited to see what TR does to improve it’s definitely helped me but the burnout aspect is real
You kind of hit on a point I wanted to make. If Sweet Spot Base is too much TR does off traditional base plans. You can always choose those and negate this entire argument for the base phase. I know TR recommends SS but you don't have to...
Super useful vid. As a new rider and a TR user I can tell you that the burnout is real. Im definitely faster and fitter than when I started but I've had to cut my volume a lot so that I can be recovered for all the interval days. I also get days where I'm totally wiped out and feel like I'm coming down with a cold. I've been really dedicated to following the nutrition advice and the training plan but it still knocks me sideways.
@Dusty DeHare sorry way to many variables to answer that question for you. Age, weight, lifestyle, training history, genetics etc etc. Could range anywhere from easy to impossible.
Thank you so much for making this video. I subscribed to TrainerRoad for 6 years and appreciate many things about them. I give them credit for making indoor training much more fun (used them before Zwift). I found riding their graphs addicting! I had good success racing while using TR too. But I would regularly hit my highest numbers of the season in late February and would carry significant fatigue thereafter. Racing successes came in spite of this and I never felt great. I always assumed this was due to shortcomings in my physiology. I am thankful to have run into the work of Stephen Seiler and am grateful for people like you who asserting thoughtful material and issuing critiques that I think are essential if we are all going to continue to grow as a cycling community. I think and hope TR will respect your intentions will grow because of conversations like this. Everyone I know who uses them uses their plans as loose guides and just picks a couple of the harder workouts to use every week, anyway. It seems like some people at least, are already adapting their programs in ways that fit approaches like what you suggest, which one can certainly do o their platform. I would like to hear your opinion on their individual workouts too, however. I suspect that many of their individual workouts are either a bit too intense, have too many intervals, or maybe recommend rest between intervals at wattage that is a bit too high to make them efficient. Keep up the GREAT work!
I've personally have had amazing success with Trainerroad high volume sweet spot plans. I know everyone is different and has different life stresses but for me, I've never felt that the sweet spot high volume plan was too much for me. For other people, low or mid volume may work better. Everyone has to do what works for them. For me, it's Trainerroad high volume hands down!
@@hebrews11vs5 I think it just boils down to life stress off the bike. I have a desk job that's not very demanding, I eat a ton of carbs and go to sleep at 8:30 every night.
Dude, HAT BACKWARDS DYLAN!!!!!! SO GOOD!!!! As long as hat backwards Dylan appears in your videos, I will NEVER unsubscribe. You make me laugh every video, ha ha, thanks for making my morning again.
3:14 Was a bit of an eye opener 'I recognised wasn't going to be able to make 5 [weeks] without completely breaking down'. Cue big smiles all round. WTF guys, this is the program you sell!
Exactly, if the so-called “coach” who made the program can’t complete it then it’s worthless. They shouldn’t be selling that garbage and dressing it up as a training program.
@@sharonmoller7414 He was treating it like a short-term training camp, which is perfectly acceptable and doesn't make it "worthless". Get a grip and stop being so dramatic.
@@JTMarlin8 Hmmm, if it’s a short term training camp then why not sell it as that? LOL “get a grip”? Look who’s the drama Queen now... I’m laughing so hard at you!
You did a great job supporting your position. Well thought out, backed up with sound studies, and well communicated. It is telling when one of the TR coaches can only do three weeks of their plan.
Excellent video. Been training for decades as a cyclist, tried multiple approaches, plans including both Zwift & TR. Only since following a polarised 3 zone approach this last 6 months have I seen consistent, progressive improvements. Fully sold. Backed up here nicely by Dylan.
Thanks for doing this. I also love the TR podcast. They're a great group of people doing a lot of good for cycling and bringing a high dose of enthusiasm. So this was a tough task. Thanks for taking a shot at an objective analysis. These sorts of discussions are needed!
I tried TrainerRoad's training plan for a trial month. I started with the base level programs and found the level of intensity day after day daunting! I'm an older athlete and was not getting enough recovery time. As you noted, I started cringing when you mentioned the word Sweet Spot training. A cycling friend suggest I following your training programs and am in week 7. Fitness has been increasing and I look forward to the next days plan. Thanks Dylan!
TrainerRoad have announced they will be offering polarised plans. See their latest podcasts. With the amount of users they have it will be interesting if they ever release figures on planned polarised workouts vs completed. That will increase the ‘N’ number, allowing TR to determine the statistical value of its effectiveness for the Joe Public who sign up for it.
Something that isn't taken into account is the cap of what 6 hours of polarized training can provide. Is it always the best training protocol? Is there a benefit of mixing in weeks of lots of sweet spot? I follow a polarized regime for a large portion of the year, but I find my body slow to show progress if I start the season out with it. 2-4 weeks of base with lots of sweetspot mixed in seems to get my body back where I started and ready to build a lot faster than a bunch of zone 2 rides with 2 interval sessions. It isn't until the volume packs up to 9+ hours a week that polarized training becomes mandatory for recovery.
I've had the same experience. Works for a month or two at mid volume but any additional stressors, like work or covid, and I fall off the rails. Its a very fine line/narrow margin for error managing the stress.
A very fair and well reasoned video. I absolutely love the Trainerroad app, website, forum and their podcasts. I will continue to pay my subscription in appreciation of all these things. I really like Nate, Chad, Amber, John & Pete. But I have modified my training plan to reduce the number of high intensity days, mainly after watching a lot of Dylan's videos plus the fact I was struggling mentally with the incessant SS sessions. I now do 2 hard (threshold or VO2Max) workouts a week with 3 or 4 days of endurance riding in between to add volume. I'm feeling better for it and am making progress.
Chad has said many times, even recently that folks generally can only sustain intensity for two or maybe three rides a week. He, however does not consider anything under threshold "intensity" and there you have the disagreement. High Volume - Three intensity, one endurance ride, and one sweet spot ride.
You should take a look at their newer polarized plans, I'd be curious to know what you think, maybe an updated video is necessary? Their polarized plans still have a LOT of tempo. For example the mid-vol polarized build plan has 2 interval days and 2 tempo days in a week. The only true Z2 workouts are during recovery weeks. High vol build is 6 days, 2 interval days and 4 tempo days. I'm not sure that's appropriate? Seems like overkill and no Z2????
This is actually healthy feedback to TrainerRoad. Even TR has internal debates on their episodes. You can customize workouts in TR for a plan to match polarized training schedule that Dylan uses, I've done it and dig it. You can also do a workout on TR and run Zwift together for Zwift fans. Plus, there's lots of info on TR podcasts that the app doesn't cover, so its good to listen to those while doing a workout...and episodes are free. Best case scenario is to have a personal coach that incorporates TR workouts. If budget can't do both, a TR subscription, experimenting with it, and some self-dedication will result gains. I like TR, it targets all levels of athletes. I like this channel too, I've used a personal coach before (Larry DeWitt, an ultra endurance athlete in Colorado Springs) using polarized training. Good stuff Dylan!
Just 4 minutes in, but that was exactly my thinking. I train between 10-18 hours a week and had a look at their high volumes base plan and was just like: "Yeah, right I will be burned out by February". I directly searched for a few minutes to find people who burned out doing it. I personally still do a lot of SweetSpot in the winter with around 3 sessions per week with quite long durations like 2x30min, but I have two rest days per week and use the weekends to do long endurance rides (if the weather allows it). This brings me up to a good level until I can start training outside. I just can't handle doing more VO2Max work for example on the traininer and that early in the year.
I'm looking over my aggregated power data over TrainerRoad SSBLV1 & SSBLV2 (I'm in week IV of that plan) and I'm seeing the following: Z1,2: 61% of total time, Z3: 9% of total time, and Z4+: 30%. My understanding is the big no-no is Z3 the tempo zone, correct? That we should be 80/20 in Z1-2 & Z4+, correct? My actuals are a bit off from that, but not crazy so. I am going to make a point of adding more endurance time for the rest of the plan. A few notes in TR's defense --1) They constantly remind us to listen to the body and bailing on a workout is not a problem. 2) They suggest starting with low volume plans and only after completing the lower volume plans consider moving up. This video has me confident in my choice of plan. I finished TBMV and am now working on SSBLV with supplemental recovery and endurance workouts. I'm handling the stress very well (which I attribute to fully fueling my training) so I am comfortable adding workouts. I tried SSBMV last year but with less than full fueling and it ravaged my body -- I would nail a week and wake up Monday feeling like I was coming down with the flu, take a few workouts off and resume only to repeat until I really did come down with the cold & then a flu. Start low and adding workouts makes you feel heroic, starting high and skipping workouts makes you feel zeroic.
What I'm hearing is "the medium and high volume plans don't give you enough time to rest and recover." I'm going to keep chugging along on my low volume plan until the northeast thaws!
I like TR very much, using it 5 times a week for 5 years now. Great video and good to have an open discussion about this subject. I agree that the Sweet Spot High Volume is to much intensity and it’s questionable whether sweet spot trainingsplans are the way to go. BUT TR is much more than that: more then 1000 workouts, other trainingsplans and you can make your own trainingsplan. So thumbs up for Dylan and TR!
I don’t use trainerroad, but indeed all these platforms are trying to setup plans for quick gains, based on the fact that the majority of folks don’t have massive free time to train and recover. I just created a custom plan on zwift for endurance ride, which is my go to plan and try to either race or join a group ride once or twice a week. This works fine for me.
Could you research and do a video on testing protocols? Ramp Test vs. 20-min TT vs. 4DP vs. Others? I am asking in part because TrainerRoad relies on their Ramp Test for their plans and I wonder if this is why so many users end up overtrained/burnt out.
TrainerRoad does have the 20 minute and if you wanted 60 minute test available. By default the ramp test is dropped into the plan but you can choose any method that will accurately measure your FTP and use those results.
Your videos are always a breath of fresh air in a space that many others over complicate. And my experience with Trainer Road? I tried it over one winter, followed a plan closely and entered the spring burnt out with dead legs. I wasn’t able to recover until the very end of the season.
Hey Dylan, thanks for another excellent video - would you be able to do one discussing how best to structure training that incorporates 1 or 2 group rides per week? I presume many people have a similar dilemma of not knowing how best to incorporate high-intensity interval sessions into a training week, given that most group rides have some intensity, yet often not of the optimal duration/intensity to constitute a 'proper' interval session. However at the same time, these rides are also not easy enough overall to be considered optimal zone 2 endurance rides with no surges and corresponding HR spikes. Thanks!
Yea so just my experience I love trainerroad but when I started using it 3 years ago (first time bike training ever) I quickly realized the crux of this video just by intuition and some knowledge of training as a swimmer back in the day- so what I did was I used the workouts to drop into a model that allowed for adequate recovery and less intensity/volume (also was doing swim/run training), and I mean, I made what I thought was pretty good progress, I learned a ton about training on the bike, and I really enjoyed the workouts. I think the workouts, the workout filter, and the workout variations (for adjusting duration but still hitting the same physiological stimulus), and the podcast are the real value of the trainerroad platform.
It's interesting to compare swimming, cycling, and running training. I was a competitive swimmer and runner, and then a draft-legal triathlete (and then back into running and some MTB/CX and road racing/training). In running training you can only go so many hard sessions a week (3, maybe 4 max), but in swimming you can get away with a lot more difficult sessions as you don't have the weight-bearing stress like you do running. Cycling seems to be somewhere in the middle. You can go incredibly deep on the bike (deeper than running for sure), and you can get away with a lot of smaller efforts on the bike day in/day out (like to just chase a few shorter strava segments everyday is relatively doable on the bike, if you're not hammering the rest of the ride). But yeah, the plan to be doing harder intervals 5 times a week just sounds like a bad idea.
Thanks for the scientific approach, Dylan. I've used TR one winter and after a couple of weeks couldn't finish the workouts anymore, which I blamed on myself. Whilst training I also listened to the TR podcast and to me their ideas were sound. This made it even harder to question the program.
TR User: (31 years old, 65 kg) I Started with a 2.5 w/kg FTP and currently at 4 w/kg FTP in 2.5 years. For me, it has been great! I've obviously started with a Low Volume plan because I didn't know anything about "Structured Training". Since that, I have completed many times their Three Stages on Mid-Volume: Base, Building and Speciality, and everytime my FTP has increased. I am consistent but there is always a day that work comes up and I just simply take it as a Rest day. I had only used the High Volume plan once, 3 months before a Training camp on winter and did not felt BURNED at any time. I am a "Recreational" type of cyclist, who loves to ride and simply enjoy the freedom that a bike gaves you! I don't know your price as a Coach, but I am a happy customer with TR who also learns from your content. TR ain't bad at all, I even improved more than other friends who hired a Personal Coach but aren't that consistent or don't take care of their food, sleep and recovery weeks. Any plans on a review to "The Sufferfest"?
I also enjoy the TR podcast a lot! I just wish they weren't so entrenched in the sweet spot methodology and offered more variety to their training protocols. I think they could benefit as a company.
Looking forward to TR response to this. I believe their plans are designed more with "what training regiment people are more likely to stick to", which is also a valid reasoning. It would be interesting to see your take on Xert approach.
Interesting! I just started using TR this year and I'm loving it. However, I choose the low volume plan to get 3 interval sessions. Then I've been doing two ~1-hr interval sessions during the week plus an additional endurance ride and on the weekend I include the interval sessions as part of my long Saturday endurance ride and then do 1 more endurance ride on Sunday. Sounds like I've been polarized training without realizing it.
Ha, I've been a trainerroad subscriber for 3 yrs and never once finished a build plan. However, even failing to finish it multiple times has made me a tonne fitter and I simply wouldn't have done any training without it, so take the positives where you can!
I'm only just seeing this video a year after it was published but I've noticed, in TrainerRoad, you can now opt in for Early Access Polarization training. Time for a round 2 review?
Great video. Big Kudos to your courage. Simply as objective as you can be. TR's podcast is indeed great, and this will certainly push them to review and improve their plans.
Loved this! A few proper digs at a recent podcast. 👌 To be fair to TR, they do actually promote a polarised/pyramidal approach, they just don't say it's that; either they don't realise or don't want to admit it. 🤔 What am I getting at? Well, in most podcast episodes they advise people to do the low volume plans and then add zone 2 rides in on top of these (6 zone model). If you add a 1 hour zone 2 ride midweek, a short 45 min z1 ride on Friday plus a longer 3+ hour endurance ride on the weekend, then, when you look a TiZ, it's either pyramidal or polarised depending on which low volume plan you are doing. As for the 5 weeks on, 1 week off during base, anecdotally, this always puts me in a hole! Thanks again Dylan. Seemed a pretty balanced assessment if you ask me. 👍
Thanks for sharing about the training model. Myself also found the sweet spot training just help me stacked up some TSS but didn’t see any improvement on my peak power…
The hardest thing for me to do is to stay in Zone 1, but the payoff is immeasurable because I’m able to have good quality “hard” days. It’s also true that I’ve been able to avoid burnout because I’m not always hammering. As I get older, it’s all about being strategic and getting the most out of a workout. Great stuff, Dylan!
when listening to the TR podcast i get the impression that most of their customers just train 4 hrs a week at all..... so it might be the right way to train if you really only have 4 hrs
why on earth would you spend money to get a training plan if you have only 4 hours per week at your disposal, I don't really get those people, just ride your bike as you please because there is no way you're gonna get competitive with so few hours
@@samuele8361 I am sure a lot of those people riding only 4 hours spend at least one of those hours analyzing and questioning their training plan. You really just need to ride more.
Training 100% of the time at sweet spot is idiotic regardless if you only have 4 hours...how can the body adapt to doing the exact same thing every single time.
Some people are only trying to get better with the time they have. I have 8 hours a week to train for triathlon. I know I will never be "good" at it, but I am just trying to be the best I can with the time I have. I tried TR for triathlon and I thought I was doing great. I got a coach and am doing so much better.
@@samuele8361 Depends what you mean by 'competitive.' Am I winning the Tour de France? No. Am I climbing the local crit ranks? Yes. Could I do this, with a one year old kid and a busy job, while riding outside? Really doubt it.
I’ve been following and watching your videos for a number of years. I’ve been a coached athlete for a couple of years (though only a mid pack finisher). Looking at taking on a 100 mile mtb race so started looking at training plans offered by a couple of different companies like trainerroad and wondered if you were going to do a video on the topic. Kudos to you for following the science. Glad to know I made a good choice to follow a polarised approach instead 👍
I've switched from TR to riding mostly endurance ,outdoors, and have seen improvements across the power range. I did respond to TR from 2.98 w/kg to 3.88 w/kg over 6 months, so appreciated the plan. However, I feel much more relaxed and less fatigued following a more traditional base now - i'll be sticking with a polarised approach.
Some of the plans doesnt allow for recovery, which means thr subsequent workouts you fail to get through or have to lower the intensity. My ftp initially increased but then started dropping as the workouts started training more at threshold leaving hardly any time to recover inbetween workouts.
Spot on Dylan. Nailed it. I enjoy the TR podcasts but will not subscribe to their services for the very reasons you outline. I really enjoy your videos- you are providing content and value. Keep up the format and solid work.
Looking forward to this 💯 I started on trainerroad but have a coach now... I found I just got really good at 20 minute efforts and had no base/endurance but some of the workouts are great fun... it’s just bloody brutal 😂
Thanks Dylan. I have been using TR for 3 years with little improvements in FTP but better performance via endurance, probably due to better consistency. I came to the conclusion that 2-3 intervals sessions are the max I can reasonable handle per week and mix it with lower intensity and group rides. It would be interesting to see what proportion of TR subscribers use the low volume. I like the TR guys but they are selling indoor and interval training. After using this platform for a year you could easily make you own programmes as they follow a pretty basic model. Why do I subscribe.... I love the group workouts for motivation.
Training isn’t rocket science, when I realised that I began to just use zwift. Base phase - weight lifting Z1/2. Build a foundation. Adding intensity - 1/2 per week. Normally Vo2 max and or a zwift race. Come spring/summer get outside and enjoy yourself in some group rides with mates or events.
THIS RIGHT HERE, is why I watch this channel religiously. You cannot out guess, out preform or out rationalize science. This young man is very disciplined and rational. The scientific approach will not fail when you have this preponderance of evidence. Thanks for taking on this sticky topic and remaining true to the science and to yourself. Nice 👍🏽 job! 👊🏽
So what's a better alternative for an automated training calendar? After just completing my second week of Trainer Road base training, I think the problem with this video is that it's a bit demotivating I worked with a coach for the first half of last year until giving up on the fact there weren't going to be races. Being uncertain about this years event schedule, I decided to try an automated training plan to keep base fitness. I actually don't mind paying a coach, it's not actually following through on my commitment with the coach if there wind up being 2-3 events this year instead of 10. So as someone who is limited to 8-10 hours a week, has a good idea of what a good training routine looks like, is motivated by a calendar, but doesn't have time to build custom plans. What do I do now?
Try low volume that way you have days to add other more reasonable workouts. I saw their Mid and HV and knew I would not survive them. I stick with LV and add in low intensity and group rides. Disclaimer: I am not in it for racing though, but to be a stronger rider.
To be fair, Trainerroad does often say that the HV plan is too much for most athletes. They even say that MV is too much for most. They always advise starting with the LV plan first.
So, I do more volume than TR HV plans. I managed the HV plan from TR and it was horrid. When I instead switched to only doing 3 sweetspot rides a week, but really extending the TTE on the sweetspot workouts and doing z2 the rest of the time, I've made fantastic gains. TR programs HV wrong
Yes. I learned quickly that even MV was too much. The problem Dylan notes is amplified by the "bigger is better" attitude of most athletic types. Way too many people pick MV or HV. The argument is largely moot if you do a LV plan, and go for endurance rides as an add on. Trainer road is their own worst enemy here with 50 billion workouts and plans with MV and HV "versions" to make it look extensive. Driving the plans with the new automated tool is making it worse because you start with the HV, MV, or LV choice at the start of the decision tree. Make a mistake there by picking MV or HV and it is all down hill from there.
@@stevenpriefer5039 exactly. During the winter, I normally do the mid volume plan, but as racing and outdoor rides pick up, I switch to a low volume plan. Often times, I will cherry pick workouts based on how I feel.
@@stevenpriefer5039 I do essentially exactly that... except on the intensity days I do the intensity in the evening and 2 hours of z2 in the morning. Been seeing great gains
@ Dylan Johnson 15:08 shows your XERT profile. What do you think of XERT's approach and training plans / workout recommendations based on the XATA? Thx!
Shots Fired! I love that you make videos pointing out the issues with other training plans, regardless of backlash. Especially after the Emily Betty video. Keep fighting the good fight and making great honest content.
As a person without a ton of time, the low volume plan has worked really well for me. I can see how more than that would become problematic but for what it is; an efficient way for a guy with 5 or 6 hours a week to get faster, TR is great!
Have you tried TrainerRoad's training plans? What was your experience?
Good for building fitness for 1 event, but it’s not great for building long term or “deep” fitness. Also there’s a big focus on always needing to increase FTP.
Thanks for the video Dylan. I've been a TR user for more than 5 years and had great success with their plans. Not saying it's the best way, buts it's worked well enough that I've continued. Have been including more endurance work in my training for the last 12 months though so not following the plans strictly at the moment.
Also, I think that TR’s main target audience is the beginner cyclist who’s getting into structured training and has 1 or maybe 2 events a year. That used to be me. Once I wanted to focus on having fitness to perform for a season of races, and wanted to see actual improvement year over year, I switched to working with a coach. TR is good, but there’s better ways to train if you’re not looking to “get fast quick”.
Burn out
I have tried them, can’t get through them. Living in Michigan I need trainer time in the winter and I still prefer TR over Zwift… but I make my own workouts or pick and chose there workouts as needed. Great video. I had always wondered about other people and there experience with their plans. Thank you!
I'm an old(er) cyclist who used to amateur road race in the 80's, training "traditionally", with lots of and lots of miles of easy seat time before race season and incorporating two interval (formerly called fartlek or speedplay) sessions a week . I LOVED cycling and had some success back in the day. Fast forward 35 years and wanting to get back into cycling seriously, if not competitively, well masters maybe, I signed up for Zwift , Trainer Road, Sufferfest and used the tools of the internet to catch right up and it seems Dylan is spot on. I thought decades of time and science would have improved training by now, but every program I tried, I burned out and burned out within weeks and I dreaded getting on the bike for the next session. Yes age is a big factor, but I also saw the low intensity, long miles that was specifically "not recommended" in Trainer Road (considered the most serious of the training programs) and against my better judgement thought oh they must know better because, well, it's been 35 years. Well sometimes, when something works, it works, even if it's old school. Just get out and ride for the love of riding. The rest will follow. I do love power meters though!
I don’t think it is fair to say Trainer Road consider “long easy base mile” not recommended. Though it is the thing that you would forgo if you don’t have time. On their latest podcasts, Chad was recommending people on their low volume plan do low intensity base ride during off days (half an hour, 45 minutes, however long you have time to put in), as long as these rides doesn’t compromise proper training sessions.
It’s my first season with them. I am trying their low volume Sweet Spot Base at the moment. Mostly because with the lock down, home education of 3 kids and everything, I can hardly put a session longer than an hour in to ride. Given my modest fitness, I don’t feel the SSB plan is tiring me out (admittedly, I am not doing GYM at the moment. Those does change the balance). I am trying to supplement with these low intensity ride during off days. That said, looking at Trainerroad’s high volume SSB, some of the stuff I see there definitely doesn’t make sense and are receipt for burn out. It almost felt like they start off with low intensity SSB and just expanded it out with the extra hours.
I kind of felt low volume SSB is sort of “cheat code”, and there will be consequences. For me, it’s not important to find out the optimal training method (well,I know it by following this channel), because I can’t put the hours in to do that. What’s important is find what’s best giving the time I can put in, and to understand the trade off with the cheat code.
I've been racing mtb xc and some road through my 40's and 50's and retired last year at 60. Having the extra time and energy I've gone back to the basics to what I too learned 35 years ago. Lately I've spent 3-4 months in zone one doing long rides and getting the weekly time above 12 hours a week. It still works!
Fartlek, that brings back some memories. You might have a look at Xert .
Not to mention that cycling in Z1 / Z2 is actually ENJOYABLE! So having 2 to 3 really fun and enjoyable rides every week builds your love of the bike and breaks the ‘I’ve got to crush my cranks every time’ mental habit.
I think they're even proud of having really hard training plans. As a matter of fact it's just stupid. But I don't fully agree with your conclusion: just go out and ride and the rest will follow. When you are a competitive athlete this approach is not sufficient enough. You need a well(!) structured training. You need to overcharge yourself to gain maximum fitness. But you have to do it gradually and carefully. Doing 3 or 4 or even 6 interval trainings per week surely is the wrong way.
Dylan I'd be really surprised if anyone would unsub to you for giving us the raw science. That's kinda what we're here for!
Sadly there is a yuge part of the American public not into science 😮
@@addingonbird1 unfortunately, I live in one of those parts. So I know all about it!
@@andrew66769 keep up the good fight 👨🔬
Cutting the fat. If people can't question the status quo with science then they are in the wrong place anyways...
It's 2021 and if you haven't looked around people have their minds made up and don't want to be confused with the facts
I don’t always follow a training plan, but when I do, I usually sabotage it with my own BHD mentality
BHD?
@@macster1000 backwards hat Dylan
Haha. Everyone had an inner BHD, especially when trying to do a zone 2 ride on Zwift.
@@macster1000 backwards hat Dylan. :)
@@stormrider1119 zone 2 ride in a tour de zwift ride, I tried and I failed
Thank you!!! The science has always backed up a more polarized training schedule for endurance athletes. As a mom of two very fast high school girls it has taken time to convince my kids that in order to go fast you must learn to go slow. It is in large part your videos and Joe Friel’s books that finally convinced them. As a result, my 17 year old won the state championships here in Utah for Varsity girls by 3 minutes and she was one of the few on the line that had not hired a professional coach. Now we have a coach helping her to get ready for nationals who tried to convince her that sweetspot was the way to go. Your video today was just what she needed. The training schedule will remain polarized! Thank you for having the courage to put this video out today, it needs to be said.
Great achievements! Congrats. By the way, coaches do need an idea, a product and a hype... sweet spot is a hype: fact. It does work, but not everyone and it goes get people burnout.
That's remarkable. To be a coach and live under a rock, oblivious of really not that all recent research. That's sad, really, I'd feel like a clown.
I hope they invite you to their “Successful Athlete” podcast, where you can discuss this in person in depth...
I would be very shocked if they don't tbh.
@@andrew66769 Yeah they'll probably invite him and I'll be sure to listen!
@@andrew66769 Nate can’t handle criticism
I would love to see that but I feel Nate would be a very funny shade of red most the interview.
I would love to see that but I feel Nate would be a very funny shade of red most the interview.
TrainerRoad seems to have taken your criticisms to heart - the app is now very aggressive with their adaptations to avoid too much training stress, and has created what they call “Masters Plans” that prioritize more recovery. Would love to see you do an updated analysis with the new changes!
I think they were always headed in this direction it was just really complicated to mesh that with a neural net trained on 1000s of athletes training and having it both suggest and adapt plans and also react to overloading stress with off days and z2 and 1 'endurance' or off days. Now that they have it, it'd be cool if Dylan re-reviewed it, but I don't think he will; he's a coach, and well.. trainer road is their profession's stable diffusion. It's basically already to the point of being better in a lot of ways than a 200-dollar-a-month personal coach, for 20 bucks, it's far more reactive, and it now gets the basics correct its pretty existential to these guys way of life post racing.
**Shots fired**
Edit now that I've watched the video:
Dylan, excellent video. It's a challenging topic and is directly critical of a major training platform for competitive cyclists. But you speak to something that comes up in their podcast, and comes up with frequency within various threads in the TR forum (e.g., threads on the benefits of their traditional base plans or threads on Maffetone-style training): that their plans are super sweet spot heavy, and that that's often (always?) suboptimal. And you do so in a way that's careful and pretty respectful.
Nate, Amber, Coach Chad, Jonathan, and the others are doing amazing things for training with power. I like their platform, and love many of their workouts. I'll keep subscribing because of that and because I see it as a worthwhile proxy for supporting the excellent podcast. But I don't do their SSB plans, and you provide deeply factual and well-researched reasons on why those plans are problematic.
Now it just remains to be seen if and how TR responds to this video. (I hope they do so humbly and with research and focus on what's best for athletes.) Thank you for the research (!) and for posting!
I’m looking forward the TR response :)
@@pjgalligan I came here just to comment "shots fired" lol
I always tweak the plans to make them work.
I swear by TR and also found this to be super useful. :-)
They won't respond.
I love TR and their podcast. It’s taken me from a decent age grouper to back of the pack professional and I am self coached. But I agree with you 100%. I have tried their plans 2x and on both occasions, I was fried after 1 month. Instead, I pick and choose my workouts from their library and do my own thing based on the science and how my body is absorbing training.
I like TrainerRoad, but you make a good point. I hope they listen or respond respectfully. 👍 Good work Dylan.
Have you noticed that lately, they're talking about minimum dose required to achieve adaptation? I think they're adjusting constantly and will get better and better. I'm very sure they're committed to doing the best they can.
They won't respond.
I do too, especially when I can't get outside because of bad weather. I do adjust their plans to suit though.
Me: watching a video agreeing with what Dylan is saying while on the trainer doing my 4th TR intensity workout of the week...
Just do 3 workouts and add a bit of volume and you should be set
Was it really your 4th high intensity or was it sweetspot, i.e. Z3?
@@johnpeachell1644 I would qualify sweet spot as intensity, especially when they approach 95%.
Its Z2 of the 3 zone model this study in this video references. TR use 88-95% of FTP for SS, I know other places that use 83-93%. 20min at 95% must be hard
no TR plan has 4 HIT sessions a week
the video we have all been waiting for. Hopefully they do a rebuttal on their podcast - would be good to see how they come back on your points
The forum thread has already 111 comments...
Do a video Charlie
@@irl-cyclist01 yes. I would like to see Charlie's do a video on it.
You want TR to rebut peer reviewed science? Sounds like trump-think to me. :(
@@redcliffsrider Hahaha ahahahaha haha. No1 Dylan can't have gone through every paper possible in a 12 min vid so there will be conflicting evidence
No2 I assume trainer road have based their training plans on some sort of evidence
No3 I also don't rate trainer road and thing it's not a good product but it's interesting to hear other people's opinions otherwise you never progress in life if you only hear things that confirm your opinion
I've switched to polarized training based on your earlier videos. That helped me understand that the TR sweet spot plans were too much for me. I still use TR for the library of workouts, but my training plan is based on polarized training. Thanks for the video DJ.
I have no experience with trainer road and no connection to them.
You have some good points but I'm wondering what your definition of "high intensity" is?
It seems like you assume all interval training is high intensity? Imo intervals can be done in tempo and sweet spot and those are not perse HIGH intensity. (I think high intensity is around ftp or above)
So doing 4 or 5 days of intervals in a week is not the same as 4-5 days HIT, right?
My experience with mid intensity (tempo and sweet spot) many times a week (intervals but not high intensity in my definition) is actually very good.
I think the science is not always a good reference to a general rider.
Is there (i didn't check but your all in it so I'm asking) any science/studies on multiple months of training in tempo/sweet spot vs polarized? (Most studies are 6-8 weeks, but that's more effective for HIT and than the results flattens out. Sweet spot or tempo training could be slower response but higher final result after many months?)
Would be cool to share thoughts about this sometime!🤙
I agree with you Jasper, I had always believed that hard Sweetspot workouts were considered high intensity, but my coach didn’t think so.
This is an excellent point. If I do 3 x 10 min. Tempo do i consider that an interval or intense day?
You are correct!
@@jackiegerwitz-dunn4046 well it is an Interval training that's a fact, but I would not consider it a (high) intensity day.
Finally, someone understands the stupidity of this video.
Nate will take offense, Chad will say the science shows he is right, Jonathan will awkwardly giggle and say "Right Amber?)
This
Oh man you've got it!
Best reply ever !
Lol
Haha spot on. Love TR though
So now we analyzed Zwift, Trainerroad training plans. How about The Sufferfest plans. What do you think about them?
and Xert plans.
@@AncoraImparoPiper Right now recovering form Xert overtraining. Pushed on purpose to see if Xert will stop overtraining. Did not. Body gave up first.
@@jozefmatejicka8529 Did you have enough rest when it said you are 'tired' and should reduce your training intensity?
@@mikewood9284 True! So it's time for Dylan to evaluate xert.
I can give you my opinion on The Sufferfest. Their workouts are incomprehensible. They have no meaning name, they use their own zone model without any explanations, they are stochastic so you don't know if you do a long or a short intervals, and some of them focus on really strange thing (do I really need to train to pedal with only one leg ???). Their plans don't give enough time to Z1 (from the 3 zone model), but they are closer to a polarized approach. You can't move their workout on their calendar and they are not designed to be done outdoor (you should do 100% indoor if you want to follow them), so I don't thing anybody can follow them.
@dylan I see you use Xert. Do you like their training plans? Can you do a video of Xert?
Second!
Third
Xert does carry a number of Sweet Spot workouts. One of their podcasts suggests that Sweet Spot can be effective if your LTP and TP are relatively close. If not, stay away. See 28:35 and 37:15 from this podcast. soundcloud.com/baronbiosys/episode-6-how-to-reach-your-goals-without-a-training-plan
+1
I noticed the Xert screenshot and was about to ask about this. I really like thr platform and wonder if you'd recommend the adaptive training advisor rather than a very rigid/ prescriptive plan.
@@bikeMalach That's a key aspect that's lacking in this discussion. The answer isn't one size fits all. I can do low SST at LTP HR. Others can't. Makes a difference what you can recover from.
I have been using TR for 4 years, had great success given I was new to structured training but I agree it feels like too much after a couple of months (base+build, mid and high volume). I always crashed and burn toward the end of build and sometimes decide to stop training until I get my motivation back. In terms of gain, those plans were great but after I used Dylan's 12+ hours plan recommendation (at most 2 high intensity, then the rest in Z2) I made even bigger gain and burnout went out of the door. My strategy is always to start with their plans and swap some of their workouts. Still, I credit them for most of my gains and getting me to be disciplined on the bike. Thanks for making this video, I had been meaning to ask about clarification on whether sweetspot qualifies as high intensity.
@DylanJohnsonCycling congrats on your Unbound Gravel performance! I enjoyed this TR review, very informative. Any chance you could do another updated review 3 years on from this one? Thanks
Isn't it time to make this kind of review for Garmin connects training plans?
I agree 100%. As a trainerroad user since 2011 or so, I have always modified or made up my own plan by substituting in zone 1/2 workouts and only doing 2 hard workouts per week. This is especially critical when you factor in that most people are doing TR in the off season (winter) and so weight training also has to added in. Trying to do the MV or HV and lift heavy within the same week, week after week, is a recipe for self destruction. Knowing your limits and recovery ability is critical. Any vanilla plan which is made to fit 1000's of riders is not individualized, and therefore not specific to you. Also, TR really struggles to fit in older riders (60+ or so), which is an indication of the weaknesses in its structure which you alude to. Can't wait for the TR response next week! 😭
During your base do you lift heavy and low reps or the opposite ?
@@Northwindbreeze this year's all messed up. I'm not in the gym this year and don't race anymore. But in the past I always lifted heavy/low reps in Jan/Feb, after mid Oct/Nov/Dec working on form and getting ready for heavy work. Then in March I would stop legs and focus on the first races in early March. Rest of the year was just gym 2xwk doing maint, low weight/higher reps, but much legs. After not lifting in 2020 (just some KB's) , I know getting back in the gym will be painful and kill my riding for a few weeks.
*quickly uses this as an excuse to not hop on the trainer today and do prescribed session
Found backwards hat Dylan.
I reluctantly went into the traditional base plan despite the recommendation and it was way better than the SSB plans I did before. Definitely valid criticisms and I’m excited to see what TR does to improve it’s definitely helped me but the burnout aspect is real
Same here. I made time in my day for traditional and I’m really liking it
You kind of hit on a point I wanted to make. If Sweet Spot Base is too much TR does off traditional base plans. You can always choose those and negate this entire argument for the base phase. I know TR recommends SS but you don't have to...
Brilliant and timely for me. The best cycling information on TH-cam. 🙌
Super useful vid. As a new rider and a TR user I can tell you that the burnout is real. Im definitely faster and fitter than when I started but I've had to cut my volume a lot so that I can be recovered for all the interval days. I also get days where I'm totally wiped out and feel like I'm coming down with a cold. I've been really dedicated to following the nutrition advice and the training plan but it still knocks me sideways.
I'm on my second year of Trainer road, currently 16 weeks into Sweet spot Base Mid volume. Gone from 315w FTP to 340w FTP. Feeling fine at the moment.
@Dusty DeHare sorry way to many variables to answer that question for you. Age, weight, lifestyle, training history, genetics etc etc. Could range anywhere from easy to impossible.
@Dusty DeHare If you already are a reasonably fit cyclist and want to gain almost 50% in 5months? Where can i sign :)
lol… took almost the whole video to figure out you were saying "pyramidal" instead of "pure middle" :D
Hahaha me too
Ha yep, should be pronounced “pyr-AM-idal”
Great content. I look forward to the TrainerRoad response. They are usually very thoughtful and sound in their advice.
Thank you so much for making this video. I subscribed to TrainerRoad for 6 years and appreciate many things about them. I give them credit for making indoor training much more fun (used them before Zwift). I found riding their graphs addicting! I had good success racing while using TR too. But I would regularly hit my highest numbers of the season in late February and would carry significant fatigue thereafter. Racing successes came in spite of this and I never felt great. I always assumed this was due to shortcomings in my physiology.
I am thankful to have run into the work of Stephen Seiler and am grateful for people like you who asserting thoughtful material and issuing critiques that I think are essential if we are all going to continue to grow as a cycling community. I think and hope TR will respect your intentions will grow because of conversations like this. Everyone I know who uses them uses their plans as loose guides and just picks a couple of the harder workouts to use every week, anyway. It seems like some people at least, are already adapting their programs in ways that fit approaches like what you suggest, which one can certainly do o their platform. I would like to hear your opinion on their individual workouts too, however. I suspect that many of their individual workouts are either a bit too intense, have too many intervals, or maybe recommend rest between intervals at wattage that is a bit too high to make them efficient. Keep up the GREAT work!
I've personally have had amazing success with Trainerroad high volume sweet spot plans. I know everyone is different and has different life stresses but for me, I've never felt that the sweet spot high volume plan was too much for me. For other people, low or mid volume may work better. Everyone has to do what works for them. For me, it's Trainerroad high volume hands down!
You must be a beast if you can handle that high volume plan.
@@hebrews11vs5 I think it just boils down to life stress off the bike. I have a desk job that's not very demanding, I eat a ton of carbs and go to sleep at 8:30 every night.
@@raymondhollans perfect!
Dude, HAT BACKWARDS DYLAN!!!!!! SO GOOD!!!! As long as hat backwards Dylan appears in your videos, I will NEVER unsubscribe. You make me laugh every video, ha ha, thanks for making my morning again.
Spot on. It’s about time someone covered this topic. Good on you for having the balls to cover it.
That’s what I was going to say. Some of us work in heavy manual Labour jobs & needs a few days rest and more zone 2.
Well done Dylan. I'd subscribe to your channel twice if I could!
Same!
Just create a second Google account 🤪
I would be living in ignorance without Dylan's great videos.
3:14 Was a bit of an eye opener
'I recognised wasn't going to be able to make 5 [weeks] without completely breaking down'. Cue big smiles all round. WTF guys, this is the program you sell!
well they do state many many times low volume is for most and high volume only for very few
Exactly, if the so-called “coach” who made the program can’t complete it then it’s worthless. They shouldn’t be selling that garbage and dressing it up as a training program.
Context is king, treat accordingly.
@@sharonmoller7414 He was treating it like a short-term training camp, which is perfectly acceptable and doesn't make it "worthless". Get a grip and stop being so dramatic.
@@JTMarlin8 Hmmm, if it’s a short term training camp then why not sell it as that? LOL “get a grip”? Look who’s the drama Queen now... I’m laughing so hard at you!
You did a great job supporting your position. Well thought out, backed up with sound studies, and well communicated. It is telling when one of the TR coaches can only do three weeks of their plan.
Exactly what I thought.
Thank you, very informative!
Next review: Sufferfest training plans?
Could you please make a video on their adaptive training system?
Excellent video. Been training for decades as a cyclist, tried multiple approaches, plans including both Zwift & TR. Only since following a polarised 3 zone approach this last 6 months have I seen consistent, progressive improvements. Fully sold. Backed up here nicely by Dylan.
Could that be because the other training gave you some base to build off and then the new platform put the icing on the cake?
New request: review Sufferfest!!!
This confirms what I have experienced. Burned out while trying to stick strictly to TR plan.
Thanks for doing this. I also love the TR podcast. They're a great group of people doing a lot of good for cycling and bringing a high dose of enthusiasm. So this was a tough task. Thanks for taking a shot at an objective analysis. These sorts of discussions are needed!
I tried TrainerRoad's training plan for a trial month. I started with the base level programs and found the level of intensity day after day daunting! I'm an older athlete and was not getting enough recovery time. As you noted, I started cringing when you mentioned the word Sweet Spot training. A cycling friend suggest I following your training programs and am in week 7. Fitness has been increasing and I look forward to the next days plan. Thanks Dylan!
TrainerRoad have announced they will be offering polarised plans. See their latest podcasts. With the amount of users they have it will be interesting if they ever release figures on planned polarised workouts vs completed. That will increase the ‘N’ number, allowing TR to determine the statistical value of its effectiveness for the Joe Public who sign up for it.
Something that isn't taken into account is the cap of what 6 hours of polarized training can provide. Is it always the best training protocol? Is there a benefit of mixing in weeks of lots of sweet spot? I follow a polarized regime for a large portion of the year, but I find my body slow to show progress if I start the season out with it. 2-4 weeks of base with lots of sweetspot mixed in seems to get my body back where I started and ready to build a lot faster than a bunch of zone 2 rides with 2 interval sessions. It isn't until the volume packs up to 9+ hours a week that polarized training becomes mandatory for recovery.
I've had the same experience. Works for a month or two at mid volume but any additional stressors, like work or covid, and I fall off the rails. Its a very fine line/narrow margin for error managing the stress.
A very fair and well reasoned video.
I absolutely love the Trainerroad app, website, forum and their podcasts. I will continue to pay my subscription in appreciation of all these things. I really like Nate, Chad, Amber, John & Pete.
But I have modified my training plan to reduce the number of high intensity days, mainly after watching a lot of Dylan's videos plus the fact I was struggling mentally with the incessant SS sessions. I now do 2 hard (threshold or VO2Max) workouts a week with 3 or 4 days of endurance riding in between to add volume. I'm feeling better for it and am making progress.
Chad has said many times, even recently that folks generally can only sustain intensity for two or maybe three rides a week. He, however does not consider anything under threshold "intensity" and there you have the disagreement. High Volume - Three intensity, one endurance ride, and one sweet spot ride.
You should take a look at their newer polarized plans, I'd be curious to know what you think, maybe an updated video is necessary? Their polarized plans still have a LOT of tempo. For example the mid-vol polarized build plan has 2 interval days and 2 tempo days in a week. The only true Z2 workouts are during recovery weeks. High vol build is 6 days, 2 interval days and 4 tempo days. I'm not sure that's appropriate? Seems like overkill and no Z2????
I have found out what works for me is using low volume plan and adding endurance rides to my plan
Yep, me too. We are all different and respond differently. That is why I like the platform; I can adjust it to to suit me and still make gains.
This is actually healthy feedback to TrainerRoad. Even TR has internal debates on their episodes. You can customize workouts in TR for a plan to match polarized training schedule that Dylan uses, I've done it and dig it. You can also do a workout on TR and run Zwift together for Zwift fans.
Plus, there's lots of info on TR podcasts that the app doesn't cover, so its good to listen to those while doing a workout...and episodes are free.
Best case scenario is to have a personal coach that incorporates TR workouts. If budget can't do both, a TR subscription, experimenting with it, and some self-dedication will result gains. I like TR, it targets all levels of athletes. I like this channel too, I've used a personal coach before (Larry DeWitt, an ultra endurance athlete in Colorado Springs) using polarized training. Good stuff Dylan!
Just 4 minutes in, but that was exactly my thinking. I train between 10-18 hours a week and had a look at their high volumes base plan and was just like: "Yeah, right I will be burned out by February". I directly searched for a few minutes to find people who burned out doing it. I personally still do a lot of SweetSpot in the winter with around 3 sessions per week with quite long durations like 2x30min, but I have two rest days per week and use the weekends to do long endurance rides (if the weather allows it). This brings me up to a good level until I can start training outside. I just can't handle doing more VO2Max work for example on the traininer and that early in the year.
I'm looking over my aggregated power data over TrainerRoad SSBLV1 & SSBLV2 (I'm in week IV of that plan) and I'm seeing the following: Z1,2: 61% of total time, Z3: 9% of total time, and Z4+: 30%. My understanding is the big no-no is Z3 the tempo zone, correct? That we should be 80/20 in Z1-2 & Z4+, correct? My actuals are a bit off from that, but not crazy so. I am going to make a point of adding more endurance time for the rest of the plan. A few notes in TR's defense --1) They constantly remind us to listen to the body and bailing on a workout is not a problem. 2) They suggest starting with low volume plans and only after completing the lower volume plans consider moving up. This video has me confident in my choice of plan. I finished TBMV and am now working on SSBLV with supplemental recovery and endurance workouts. I'm handling the stress very well (which I attribute to fully fueling my training) so I am comfortable adding workouts. I tried SSBMV last year but with less than full fueling and it ravaged my body -- I would nail a week and wake up Monday feeling like I was coming down with the flu, take a few workouts off and resume only to repeat until I really did come down with the cold & then a flu. Start low and adding workouts makes you feel heroic, starting high and skipping workouts makes you feel zeroic.
What I'm hearing is "the medium and high volume plans don't give you enough time to rest and recover." I'm going to keep chugging along on my low volume plan until the northeast thaws!
Yep, at least you can add low volume rides to the LV plan and not feel burned out.
I like TR very much, using it 5 times a week for 5 years now. Great video and good to have an open discussion about this subject. I agree that the Sweet Spot High Volume is to much intensity and it’s questionable whether sweet spot trainingsplans are the way to go. BUT TR is much more than that: more then 1000 workouts, other trainingsplans and you can make your own trainingsplan. So thumbs up for Dylan and TR!
I don’t use trainerroad, but indeed all these platforms are trying to setup plans for quick gains, based on the fact that the majority of folks don’t have massive free time to train and recover. I just created a custom plan on zwift for endurance ride, which is my go to plan and try to either race or join a group ride once or twice a week. This works fine for me.
Sharing Is caring... Me wants the plan 😋
Could you research and do a video on testing protocols? Ramp Test vs. 20-min TT vs. 4DP vs. Others?
I am asking in part because TrainerRoad relies on their Ramp Test for their plans and I wonder if this is why so many users end up overtrained/burnt out.
TrainerRoad does have the 20 minute and if you wanted 60 minute test available. By default the ramp test is dropped into the plan but you can choose any method that will accurately measure your FTP and use those results.
Your videos are always a breath of fresh air in a space that many others over complicate. And my experience with Trainer Road? I tried it over one winter, followed a plan closely and entered the spring burnt out with dead legs. I wasn’t able to recover until the very end of the season.
You should quit cycling because you clearly didn't have the manhood to make it through. Have you considered playing croquet instead?
I like that you specified what percentages the polarized training model used.
What are your thoughts on the new adaptive mode they just released?
The best cycling coach information comes from You. Totally unbiased and fact based info
there's always bias. How do you think he chooses the journals to cite?
Hey Dylan, thanks for another excellent video - would you be able to do one discussing how best to structure training that incorporates 1 or 2 group rides per week? I presume many people have a similar dilemma of not knowing how best to incorporate high-intensity interval sessions into a training week, given that most group rides have some intensity, yet often not of the optimal duration/intensity to constitute a 'proper' interval session. However at the same time, these rides are also not easy enough overall to be considered optimal zone 2 endurance rides with no surges and corresponding HR spikes. Thanks!
Yea so just my experience I love trainerroad but when I started using it 3 years ago (first time bike training ever) I quickly realized the crux of this video just by intuition and some knowledge of training as a swimmer back in the day- so what I did was I used the workouts to drop into a model that allowed for adequate recovery and less intensity/volume (also was doing swim/run training), and I mean, I made what I thought was pretty good progress, I learned a ton about training on the bike, and I really enjoyed the workouts. I think the workouts, the workout filter, and the workout variations (for adjusting duration but still hitting the same physiological stimulus), and the podcast are the real value of the trainerroad platform.
It's interesting to compare swimming, cycling, and running training. I was a competitive swimmer and runner, and then a draft-legal triathlete (and then back into running and some MTB/CX and road racing/training). In running training you can only go so many hard sessions a week (3, maybe 4 max), but in swimming you can get away with a lot more difficult sessions as you don't have the weight-bearing stress like you do running. Cycling seems to be somewhere in the middle. You can go incredibly deep on the bike (deeper than running for sure), and you can get away with a lot of smaller efforts on the bike day in/day out (like to just chase a few shorter strava segments everyday is relatively doable on the bike, if you're not hammering the rest of the ride). But yeah, the plan to be doing harder intervals 5 times a week just sounds like a bad idea.
Id be curious to know your thoughts on the recent TR announcement
Thanks for the scientific approach, Dylan. I've used TR one winter and after a couple of weeks couldn't finish the workouts anymore, which I blamed on myself. Whilst training I also listened to the TR podcast and to me their ideas were sound. This made it even harder to question the program.
TR User: (31 years old, 65 kg) I Started with a 2.5 w/kg FTP and currently at 4 w/kg FTP in 2.5 years. For me, it has been great! I've obviously started with a Low Volume plan because I didn't know anything about "Structured Training". Since that, I have completed many times their Three Stages on Mid-Volume: Base, Building and Speciality, and everytime my FTP has increased. I am consistent but there is always a day that work comes up and I just simply take it as a Rest day. I had only used the High Volume plan once, 3 months before a Training camp on winter and did not felt BURNED at any time. I am a "Recreational" type of cyclist, who loves to ride and simply enjoy the freedom that a bike gaves you! I don't know your price as a Coach, but I am a happy customer with TR who also learns from your content. TR ain't bad at all, I even improved more than other friends who hired a Personal Coach but aren't that consistent or don't take care of their food, sleep and recovery weeks. Any plans on a review to "The Sufferfest"?
I went from 2.4 to 4.1 in 2.4 years using polarized.
I also enjoy the TR podcast a lot! I just wish they weren't so entrenched in the sweet spot methodology and offered more variety to their training protocols. I think they could benefit as a company.
Looking forward to TR response to this. I believe their plans are designed more with "what training regiment people are more likely to stick to", which is also a valid reasoning.
It would be interesting to see your take on Xert approach.
Interesting! I just started using TR this year and I'm loving it. However, I choose the low volume plan to get 3 interval sessions. Then I've been doing two ~1-hr interval sessions during the week plus an additional endurance ride and on the weekend I include the interval sessions as part of my long Saturday endurance ride and then do 1 more endurance ride on Sunday. Sounds like I've been polarized training without realizing it.
this is not polarized training.
Does this mean that I can stop feeling bad about being absolutely wiped out by my TR training plan?
Ha, I've been a trainerroad subscriber for 3 yrs and never once finished a build plan. However, even failing to finish it multiple times has made me a tonne fitter and I simply wouldn't have done any training without it, so take the positives where you can!
I'm only just seeing this video a year after it was published but I've noticed, in TrainerRoad, you can now opt in for Early Access Polarization training. Time for a round 2 review?
How about a review on The Sufferfest?
That was very fair criticism. I hope no one gives you a hard time about it.
@Dylan Johnson. - will you build us a plan using the TEAM feature in Trainierroad? I would pay.
Great video. Big Kudos to your courage. Simply as objective as you can be. TR's podcast is indeed great, and this will certainly push them to review and improve their plans.
Loved this! A few proper digs at a recent podcast. 👌
To be fair to TR, they do actually promote a polarised/pyramidal approach, they just don't say it's that; either they don't realise or don't want to admit it. 🤔 What am I getting at? Well, in most podcast episodes they advise people to do the low volume plans and then add zone 2 rides in on top of these (6 zone model). If you add a 1 hour zone 2 ride midweek, a short 45 min z1 ride on Friday plus a longer 3+ hour endurance ride on the weekend, then, when you look a TiZ, it's either pyramidal or polarised depending on which low volume plan you are doing.
As for the 5 weeks on, 1 week off during base, anecdotally, this always puts me in a hole!
Thanks again Dylan. Seemed a pretty balanced assessment if you ask me. 👍
Yep, you’re right and it’s the exact approach I follow
Thanks for sharing about the training model. Myself also found the sweet spot training just help me stacked up some TSS but didn’t see any improvement on my peak power…
Both Chris Froome and Dylan Johnson are not afraid to share their opinions! I think it's good, and I appreciate it.
yet people h8 durianrider for telling the truth for a decade +
@@Bayo106 think it’s his delivery of the truth that gets on peoples pisser 😂
The hardest thing for me to do is to stay in Zone 1, but the payoff is immeasurable because I’m able to have good quality “hard” days. It’s also true that I’ve been able to avoid burnout because I’m not always hammering. As I get older, it’s all about being strategic and getting the most out of a workout. Great stuff, Dylan!
when listening to the TR podcast i get the impression that most of their customers just train 4 hrs a week at all..... so it might be the right way to train if you really only have 4 hrs
why on earth would you spend money to get a training plan if you have only 4 hours per week at your disposal, I don't really get those people, just ride your bike as you please because there is no way you're gonna get competitive with so few hours
@@samuele8361 I am sure a lot of those people riding only 4 hours spend at least one of those hours analyzing and questioning their training plan. You really just need to ride more.
Training 100% of the time at sweet spot is idiotic regardless if you only have 4 hours...how can the body adapt to doing the exact same thing every single time.
Some people are only trying to get better with the time they have. I have 8 hours a week to train for triathlon. I know I will never be "good" at it, but I am just trying to be the best I can with the time I have. I tried TR for triathlon and I thought I was doing great. I got a coach and am doing so much better.
@@samuele8361 Depends what you mean by 'competitive.' Am I winning the Tour de France? No. Am I climbing the local crit ranks? Yes. Could I do this, with a one year old kid and a busy job, while riding outside? Really doubt it.
I’ve been following and watching your videos for a number of years. I’ve been a coached athlete for a couple of years (though only a mid pack finisher). Looking at taking on a 100 mile mtb race so started looking at training plans offered by a couple of different companies like trainerroad and wondered if you were going to do a video on the topic. Kudos to you for following the science. Glad to know I made a good choice to follow a polarised approach instead 👍
Nice job. I too listen to the TR podcast and have questioned their approach.
I've switched from TR to riding mostly endurance ,outdoors, and have seen improvements across the power range. I did respond to TR from 2.98 w/kg to 3.88 w/kg over 6 months, so appreciated the plan. However, I feel much more relaxed and less fatigued following a more traditional base now - i'll be sticking with a polarised approach.
Some of the plans doesnt allow for recovery, which means thr subsequent workouts you fail to get through or have to lower the intensity. My ftp initially increased but then started dropping as the workouts started training more at threshold leaving hardly any time to recover inbetween workouts.
Sounds like an excuse for being slow. How many CAT5 races have you lost? All of them? Yea...
Spot on Dylan. Nailed it. I enjoy the TR podcasts but will not subscribe to their services for the very reasons you outline. I really enjoy your videos- you are providing content and value. Keep up the format and solid work.
Looking forward to this 💯 I started on trainerroad but have a coach now... I found I just got really good at 20 minute efforts and had no base/endurance but some of the workouts are great fun... it’s just bloody brutal 😂
Haha perfect combination of science and humor, as always cranking me up and educating at the same time
That took guts. Thank you.
Thanks Dylan. I have been using TR for 3 years with little improvements in FTP but better performance via endurance, probably due to better consistency. I came to the conclusion that 2-3 intervals sessions are the max I can reasonable handle per week and mix it with lower intensity and group rides. It would be interesting to see what proportion of TR subscribers use the low volume. I like the TR guys but they are selling indoor and interval training. After using this platform for a year you could easily make you own programmes as they follow a pretty basic model. Why do I subscribe.... I love the group workouts for motivation.
Training isn’t rocket science, when I realised that I began to just use zwift.
Base phase - weight lifting Z1/2. Build a foundation.
Adding intensity - 1/2 per week. Normally Vo2 max and or a zwift race.
Come spring/summer get outside and enjoy yourself in some group rides with mates or events.
Absolutely. Having a plan that you can stick to is the first thing, however (un-)structured it is.
THIS RIGHT HERE, is why I watch this channel religiously. You cannot out guess, out preform or out rationalize science. This young man is very disciplined and rational. The scientific approach will not fail when you have this preponderance of evidence. Thanks for taking on this sticky topic and remaining true to the science and to yourself. Nice 👍🏽 job! 👊🏽
So what's a better alternative for an automated training calendar? After just completing my second week of Trainer Road base training, I think the problem with this video is that it's a bit demotivating
I worked with a coach for the first half of last year until giving up on the fact there weren't going to be races. Being uncertain about this years event schedule, I decided to try an automated training plan to keep base fitness. I actually don't mind paying a coach, it's not actually following through on my commitment with the coach if there wind up being 2-3 events this year instead of 10.
So as someone who is limited to 8-10 hours a week, has a good idea of what a good training routine looks like, is motivated by a calendar, but doesn't have time to build custom plans. What do I do now?
Coincidentally threw in the towel today after 2 months of TR Midd volume. It is too hard to keep enjoying it.
Try low volume that way you have days to add other more reasonable workouts. I saw their Mid and HV and knew I would not survive them. I stick with LV and add in low intensity and group rides. Disclaimer: I am not in it for racing though, but to be a stronger rider.
Agree with this 100%. It got me fast from not structure but burnt me out quick. I’m now picking my own workouts from them for my own plan.
To be fair, Trainerroad does often say that the HV plan is too much for most athletes. They even say that MV is too much for most. They always advise starting with the LV plan first.
So, I do more volume than TR HV plans. I managed the HV plan from TR and it was horrid. When I instead switched to only doing 3 sweetspot rides a week, but really extending the TTE on the sweetspot workouts and doing z2 the rest of the time, I've made fantastic gains. TR programs HV wrong
Yes. I learned quickly that even MV was too much. The problem Dylan notes is amplified by the "bigger is better" attitude of most athletic types. Way too many people pick MV or HV. The argument is largely moot if you do a LV plan, and go for endurance rides as an add on. Trainer road is their own worst enemy here with 50 billion workouts and plans with MV and HV "versions" to make it look extensive. Driving the plans with the new automated tool is making it worse because you start with the HV, MV, or LV choice at the start of the decision tree. Make a mistake there by picking MV or HV and it is all down hill from there.
Sounds like we should all do the low volume plan and add our own zone 1 on the off days.
@@stevenpriefer5039 exactly. During the winter, I normally do the mid volume plan, but as racing and outdoor rides pick up, I switch to a low volume plan.
Often times, I will cherry pick workouts based on how I feel.
@@stevenpriefer5039 I do essentially exactly that... except on the intensity days I do the intensity in the evening and 2 hours of z2 in the morning. Been seeing great gains
@ Dylan Johnson 15:08 shows your XERT profile. What do you think of XERT's approach and training plans / workout recommendations based on the XATA? Thx!
Hey Dylan, could you do a video about donating blood and it's effect on endurance performance? I think it is a very interesting topic!
Shots Fired! I love that you make videos pointing out the issues with other training plans, regardless of backlash. Especially after the Emily Betty video. Keep fighting the good fight and making great honest content.
As a person without a ton of time, the low volume plan has worked really well for me. I can see how more than that would become problematic but for what it is; an efficient way for a guy with 5 or 6 hours a week to get faster, TR is great!
I’m a TR subscriber and fan. So glad you’ve approached this topic. You addressed my biggest questions about TR: high volume plans!!