My favourite feature of indieVelo is the virtual shifting, which works on ALL smart trainers because it's just done in the software by adjusting the resistance/speed relationship - unlike the Zwift/Wahoo buddies who pretend it needs to be done in firmware so those with perfectly functional older trainers have to upgrade and create landfill to get the feature.
Thanks Ray. I agree they should have a lower tier subscription for IndieVelo only, I for one have no interest in Training Peaks and won't be paying for something I don't want.
I'm excited about this.There's a group of people (like myself) that pay for both Zwift and TP. I dont use zwift as much (maybe on rainy days or winter time). I would happily cancel zwift if i could just use something included in TP, even if not as good as Zwift.
I'm that user who has followed that path (zwift>RGT>Wahoo>indievelo) but for the mechanics, not cost. I gave up on zwift because the physics was so poorly done I'd rather stare at a wall. Really hope indievelo doesn't go down the same route as RGT, but glad George is finally getting rewarded for all his hard work.
indievelo got popular mostly because it was free. Let's be honest. when it comes to graphics, zwift and indievelo arent THAT much different. They both suck. but people tolerated indievelo because it was free. George is getting his fat paycheck for his work, but a lot people will leave because of the money. The only thing that made difference (cost) is now gone. There's no reason to stay.
@@SoftTofu123 I don't care about graphics, I will not go back to zwift until they fix the physics. I gladly paid for RGT (rip) because it actually worked under the hood. I know there is a cohort that just want free, but I'm not one of them. If it comes down to staring at a wall like we did back in the 90s, I'll go back to doing that before I go back to zwift.
@@SoftTofu123 I know quite a few people who use(d) iV not because it was free but because the racing experience was superior (and offers more options). Additionally, I know fewer people (but still some) who switched when Zwift did away with account for minors. TP still distinguishes between over 16/under 16 accounts, and I know junior racing/riding isn't a massive standalone market but there are a lot of families/households where that does matter quite a bit. I also think there is going to be a massive increase in net users because there are more people on TP than were using iV for free, so it is only a net negative for people who aren't willing to pay for services or products.
I know his mouth is moving closer to his collar at 2:57 but it super weirds out my brain that his voice gets louder when he turns AWAY from the camera 😂😂😂
One idea is group “interval” training. You do the same structured workouts with your mates online together with live audio feeds. Your workouts are specific to your own training zones and completeness of an interval determines whether you get dropped.
I agree. Zwift kinda has this but only for their own workouts. I’d like to setup a session and, if my club mates want to join me in the pain cave, then they’re welcome!
@@KuriReevel How do I do it in InVelo? Is it through organising Group Workout? Can we do customised workout in “Group Workout” or just the existing workout?
@@suisinghoraceho2403 In TrainingPeaks Virtual (formerly indieVelo) you can make events and choose event type “group workout”. If you set there the Rubber Band feature to Doubble, then basically all riders doing the workout will stay together no matter of their power output. So every rider can do the workout in their own specific power zones. TPV has also settings for video feed set up.
@@suisinghoraceho2403For group workouts go and organize new event and choose event type “group workout” and set the Rubber Band setting to Doubble. Then all riders participating workout in their respective power levels and still all riders stay together.
IndieVelo is very good for racing. Very realistic bike physics. And very addictive. I race in The Danish IndieVelo leage twice Per week. If peoples power or heart rates become suspicious, their results are pulled automatically from the standing.
If they're able to do structured training in a virtual world well, I could see them attracting a ton of people who aren't intereseted in Zwift's gamification stuff
@Dcrainmaker I do the same very frequently. Fun fact, it makes a great place for a first date. It's sort of like an escape room but with a food court and you can buy stuff for your living room
I love this idea and will be trying it out for the first time this weekend. I've been waiting for a good alternative to zwift for some time. Rouvy was tempting, but this is a no brainer... especially since it'll come with my premium TP subscription.
If you listen to the owners of training peaks, they are not stupid. They are VERY methodical about what they add in that "it isn't a waste of time". If they bought IndieVelo there is a very much a strong business use cases that their coaches want met.
The virtual cycling industry is years behind the gaming industry… Since the social aspect of those games is such a huge factor, they should just do what many video games do: game’s free-to-play with some kind of season pass that gives you aesthetic items that are only available that way. Play on people’s FOMO and get much richer then via the current method. My whoosh seems to be going down this route, and will inevitably extinguish it’s competition
I am sceptical. Free-to-play games rely on whales - a small group of people willing to pay lots of money, most gamers don't spend anything. But this only works if you have millions of players, I don't think millions of people will be willing to exercise with a cycling game, even if it's free. I used Zwift for over a year, and my avatar was largely the same one I created on day 1. Personally I was only interested in it as a training tool, and didn't really care about how my character looked. So I don't think that athletes are comparable to gamers. But that's just my opinion.
So, turn something that is good for you into another tool to suck money out your picket and add not real value to your life. Yeah....humanity is doomed.
I don't expect stuff to be free, but reasonably priced. Switched from Zwift because I just couldn't get myself to spend 20€ / month for a piece of software that's average at best.
I guess you just don't understand how free apps make money. There's ton of "free" business models across all sorts of industries that make unbelievable profits each year.
IndieVelo is great, and it's always exciting to see that he listens to users (unlike Zwift). The main things which have kept me on Zwift is social (indie will catch up), slightly better cartoon graphics and movement, and importantly, a good number of flat and rolling route options (which I don't believe indieVelo has much of yet). Hopefully with the support of TrainingPeaks, those things will improve. This could be the thing to get me to switch from Zwift, as I would be looking at it as getting the additional training functionality for only a few dollars more per month.
They HAVE TO make it cheaper than $20/month especially since 80% of their users will most likely not be interested in Training Peaks (never heard of it until now). This could kill Indie Velo unless they come up with something more reasonable. 100,000 users at $5/month is more profitable than like 6 users at $20/month. As far as the advertising goes... just place it in appropriate places at appropriate times: The billboard is one of the worst placements. Why not advertise something pre/post race while you're waiting at the start gate. After a long session food, recovery, whatever else a rider might be craving... Lots of these companies are out of touch. Zwift especially - increasing their price drastically right before summer starts and right as competitors are appearing.
Unfortunately, a tech acquisition by a big established player of a new fast moving startup very rarely results in the established player speeding up their own pace of delivery & innovation. It does, however, usually mean a giant increase in red tape and a corresponding slow down in the rate of development / delivery for the startup though 😢
TrainingPeaks is a platform for professional and serious amateur athletes. The new developments of TrainingPeaks Virtual will take this path and will give coaches and athletes more professional tools to improve their training. Zwift will be used in the future mostly by general fitness crowd and those wannabe poser-racer-cheaters.
Yes, albeit technically only for the original Founders Club folks at the moment in beta. But it is available for those people. It's unclear when TrainingPeaks will expand access further.
Kinda wild that we are in 2024 and STILL need to explain why things cost money. Wonder how many people would be fine doing their day job for free. Crazy world.
@dcrainmaker I wonder if you could dive into how in the world it could be that 1 guy, George, could do so much more than Zwift all by himself? It is mind blowing that he can add features and roads at an amazing pace while Zwift languishes with road construction slower than real life and seemingly complete indifference to things that people would like, such as organizing the garage, or native dual recording. Or in other words, WTF Zwift.
To be fair to Zwift, George honestly hasn't added much in the way of roads/routes. And the routes/roads he does have are incredibly basic in terms of scenario. Zwift on the other hand spends a ton of time on the sceneic elements and creating specific memorable things. Do people care about that? Obviously, depends on the person's preferences. Likewise, George is mostly able to sidestep the heavier support burder than comes with Zwift's user base and reach. Likewise, the support and management of all the Zwift Club related things takes overhead. Which as I clearly noted, isn't to downplay what George is doing. He did an incredible amount of work each week - and I've long said that Zwift's staffing and speed of execution don't seem to match. But there is a factual difference between laying a generic road across a slate of green grass (IndieVelo) and buildings tons of custom graphic assets/worlds/etc (Zwift). Doesn't explain all the other features of course, but in terms of road construction, I don't think anyone would say IndieVelo did more there.
I see the new Jetblack Victory in your video. Would you recommend waiting for it to be released or take advantage of a Neo 2T or Kickr Core Zwift One deals?
I struggle with all these platforms that use this RGT/BKool is the look / feel of the rider turning and pedaling, it's too happy valley, a slight shift to the right and the rider falls to the right and the pedalling out of the saddle looks like a robot. Zwift knows it's a video game but the movement looks more realistic even if the dynamics aren't (wind, braking etc.) the graphics and engine are more game than sim and that's where they struggle, if they want more people moving to their platform they have to close the gap with real feel and graphics
Good overview and explanation. I’d be interested in $10/mo starter tier and would like to eventually dabble with maybe basic features of trainer road, get me hooked and I’ll go to the $20/mo.
If I recall, and I may be wrong, Indievelo was going to be more of a racing platform? TrainingPeaks could push that, as their customers are committed athletes. If George can make it tough to cheat people would trust it more then Zwift possibly
The cycling workout games need to understand that they need professional game developers and designers already. From graphics, UI and UX to performance. It’s like the bar is the TdF games (that look and perform like dog shit).
The challenge continues to be that big game studios with excellent graphics largely target gamers with high-end systems (either console, PC, or otherwise). Whereas most cyclists are using older hardware they have lying around. Obviously, some, have high-end computers, but most don't. Add to that, dealing with all of the wonky sensor accessories/inputs that typical game developers don't have to deal with. I'd love to see it be better, but for better or worse, the market has spoken: Every game with swanky graphics that's tried to come in and take market share has failed, largely because most cyclists see graphics as secondary to other in-game cycling aspects (social, connectivity, platform availability, etc...).
I think Training Peaks is about to learn the same lesson Wahoo learned, as Bing learned, and a whole host of others. Zwift is far, Far, FAR from perfect, but inertia is a hell of a thing to overcome.
Not at this point. The deal was close and offered, but ultimately one side decided against it. At this point, I don’t see that deal/offer ever happening again.
I’ve no idea how busy the IndieVelo platform is at peak times but it will empty overnight once a fee lands because most of the people there, are only there because it’s a free lunch. At that point TrainingPeaks should see they have to do something to attract Zwift users (people who actually pay for stuff) because almost no one wants to ride in an empty virtual world (like RGT was) especially if they’re paying for it! This could be great for consumers as the Wahoo acquisition of RGT initially appeared it might be, or it could go the same way that RGT did
Disagree - I have a Training Peaks account and had never heard of indieVelo. I stopped paying for Zwift and started using MyWhoosh, mainly as it integrates with Training Peaks. I couldn’t care less if there’s people to race as all I’m interested in doing is workouts my coach has set me.
If you are going to charge, you have to give me a reason to pay for this as opposed to Zwift. The only thing I see so far is a Zwift copy that is slightly worse than Zwift. You need the killer feature that will make me switch. Zwift has the social bit sewn up. What is TP/IV going to have that is going to bring the masses over?
Perhaps I'm in the minority, I pay for TrainingPeaks and I pay for Zwift. But I have yet to give IndieVelo a try, so I see this through a neutral to positive lens. If anything, I have questions about how this might impact TrainingPeaks’ neutrality status with all other training platforms. Up until now everyone played nicely with TP, because it was essentially additive. Will the dynamic change?
Been on IV for the last year or so. I always knew it wouldn't be free forever. However, I'm too old for pretending that I'm training. That is, that I'm aiming for a real improvement. I don't subscribe to this whole hype of everyone staying young forever. Paying for TP premium is not for me. So come March, or more likely when the summer is over next year, I'll probably go to Rouvy or even Zwift. Having real people behind those avatars just helps me with motivation. You know, like in the real world when you're racing that unaware granny on an ebike. I thought I would stay with IV assuming they will start charging something close to what Rouvy does. Guess, one should never assume. But then, life goes on and this is just a minor nuisance. Now, if they would include water worlds for indoor rowing (kayaking in my case), that would make them stand out among all those online platforms and I might reconsider.
Wish there was an option of a one time, offline payment, like other video games. You pay, you play the game offline. Charge for new maps or big features.
This. Zwift at 20 a month is a rip off considering the glacial pace of new features being launched. One pays for overhead and waste. I'd gladly pay $20 a month for something that looks like its actively developed. Zwift lost me when I noticed its $15 a month. Separately, i need only structured workouts and scenery, dont need any company.
The problem I have with these cycling games is that a triple A pc game costs 60 to 70 bucks to outright own the game. In no way a monthly payment of 10 to 15 bucks a month represents the worth of these games. The pricing of swift is absolutely absurd and that is why I do not use it. The cycling game industry needs an out right owning alternative. If similar to indie velo or rgt I’d be more than happy to pay 60 bucks.
AAA game studios will typically spend upwards of $100M to design the game, then, they sell *tens of millions* of copies for that $60-$70. Thus, their revenue is vastly higher. And that sets aside all the incremental in-game purchase revenue too (which Zwift doesn't have). People often like to compare to the big game studios, but the fact is, that's like comparing the production costs and economies of scale of cars to buses. Similiar in theory, but not in reality.
@@Dcrainmaker Yeah fair point but indie velo is not even close to a triple a game development wise. As you mentioned in your video indie velo is developed by a single person in 1,5 to 2 years. So let's make a calculation. let's say he worked 80 hours a week on this for two years at an hourly cost including overhead of 250 dollars. That would be an investment of just more than 2.000.000. Currently indie velo has 40.000 users without any marketing. If all those 40.000 would buy the game at 60 bucks that would mean a revenue of 2.400.000. Off course tax would still need to be paid over that money but this game in it's current state deserves more than 40.000 users. I use indie velo, and if i had the option to buy it at 70 or 80 bucks, i'd consider it.
yes its not Zwift, its worse and as a paid sub for TP, total waste of $, IndieVelo (terrible brand name) isnt gonna help that. Zwift still my favorite monthly sub since 2016!
Linux? It seems to be a free thing that is supported by millions. So is heaps of other open source software. The thesis of things having to cost money is completely flawed. You could build a OSS cycling game and have it be peer to peer networked with no central server needed that could cost a central service anything to run.
I understand that free doesn't pay the bills, but I am predominantly a runner who indoor cycles once a month or so. 12.99 for one workout is too expensive for me. I wish platforms could provide a usable free tier rather than just being totally behind a paywall.
It s not about paying, its about paying that much. Yeah, 20-what-ever is cheap if you use a service 4h/day but not if you use it once a week. In my case i payed the 12(?)$ for iv, had a live data api. Now i m forced (after a year) to pay 20$ for a service like trainingpeaks that gives me no benefit - even worse - until now i don't know why i should use it.
Your not totally correct about "free". There's software free as "freedom" not as "free beer". It's software developed by community for the community. If you have an expertise and like cycling, have indoor trainer. You don't have to get paid to develop something cool. It's just for fun.
No one has a lock on making a tree in a virtual environment. All these visual elements are low res and easy to do. So easy one guy could do it while spending most of the time developing the platform. Nothing to see here.
@@ponderingfoxit’s the dialog boxes with fonts etc. For someone who knows Zwift and Indievelo only from TH-cam videos I wouldn’t be able to say which is which without a logo or trademark.
As a premium Training Peaks subscriber for many years, i'm stoked to get more value for my money.
And to be able to drop Zwift from the overload of cycling related subs I have
My favourite feature of indieVelo is the virtual shifting, which works on ALL smart trainers because it's just done in the software by adjusting the resistance/speed relationship - unlike the Zwift/Wahoo buddies who pretend it needs to be done in firmware so those with perfectly functional older trainers have to upgrade and create landfill to get the feature.
So true. I never understood why this would need to be in hardware. It's simple math--and IndieVelo did it.
OMG the George graphic popping up all the time had me rolling!
You're weclome. :)
Thanks Ray. I agree they should have a lower tier subscription for IndieVelo only, I for one have no interest in Training Peaks and won't be paying for something I don't want.
To be fair, TP is cheaper than Zwift as it is.
You could think of it is paying for Indievelo and getting TP as a bonus.
yes
TrainingPeaks annual subscription is cheaper than Zwift
I'm excited about this.There's a group of people (like myself) that pay for both Zwift and TP. I dont use zwift as much (maybe on rainy days or winter time). I would happily cancel zwift if i could just use something included in TP, even if not as good as Zwift.
exactly the same here
I've been an IndieVelo user for a couple of years now. George has done a brilliant job. It has been fun watching it grow with each passing month.
George is awesome, he also hooked up the founders club with training peaks free for a year. $125 value. amazing
He did a pretty good job for just 1 guy
That's an understatement if he truly did everything himself
Totally agree with the lower tier sub, I've zero interest in a TP account and I currently do pay for iV.
I'm that user who has followed that path (zwift>RGT>Wahoo>indievelo) but for the mechanics, not cost. I gave up on zwift because the physics was so poorly done I'd rather stare at a wall.
Really hope indievelo doesn't go down the same route as RGT, but glad George is finally getting rewarded for all his hard work.
indievelo got popular mostly because it was free. Let's be honest. when it comes to graphics, zwift and indievelo arent THAT much different. They both suck. but people tolerated indievelo because it was free. George is getting his fat paycheck for his work, but a lot people will leave because of the money. The only thing that made difference (cost) is now gone. There's no reason to stay.
@@SoftTofu123 I don't care about graphics, I will not go back to zwift until they fix the physics. I gladly paid for RGT (rip) because it actually worked under the hood.
I know there is a cohort that just want free, but I'm not one of them. If it comes down to staring at a wall like we did back in the 90s, I'll go back to doing that before I go back to zwift.
@@galenkehler Wahhh the physics in my indoor training software isn't what I want 😭😭😭
@@SoftTofu123 I know quite a few people who use(d) iV not because it was free but because the racing experience was superior (and offers more options). Additionally, I know fewer people (but still some) who switched when Zwift did away with account for minors. TP still distinguishes between over 16/under 16 accounts, and I know junior racing/riding isn't a massive standalone market but there are a lot of families/households where that does matter quite a bit. I also think there is going to be a massive increase in net users because there are more people on TP than were using iV for free, so it is only a net negative for people who aren't willing to pay for services or products.
@Justnothankyou132 ok... but that's what you're paying for, a simulation, and if that's off, why are you doing it.
Outstandingly well executed slide into the sponsor message. One of the best I've seen 😂
that was smoooooooooooth transition to the ad 👏👏👏
🤣
Interesting. Thanks, Ray!
I know his mouth is moving closer to his collar at 2:57 but it super weirds out my brain that his voice gets louder when he turns AWAY from the camera 😂😂😂
Interesting background with bike with the shoes clipped on the pedals, IKEA boxes ... :) Anyway, great video as always...
One idea is group “interval” training. You do the same structured workouts with your mates online together with live audio feeds. Your workouts are specific to your own training zones and completeness of an interval determines whether you get dropped.
I agree. Zwift kinda has this but only for their own workouts. I’d like to setup a session and, if my club mates want to join me in the pain cave, then they’re welcome!
This is already implemented in indieVelo/TPV
@@KuriReevel How do I do it in InVelo? Is it through organising Group Workout? Can we do customised workout in “Group Workout” or just the existing workout?
@@suisinghoraceho2403 In TrainingPeaks Virtual (formerly indieVelo) you can make events and choose event type “group workout”. If you set there the Rubber Band feature to Doubble, then basically all riders doing the workout will stay together no matter of their power output. So every rider can do the workout in their own specific power zones. TPV has also settings for video feed set up.
@@suisinghoraceho2403For group workouts go and organize new event and choose event type “group workout” and set the Rubber Band setting to Doubble. Then all riders participating workout in their respective power levels and still all riders stay together.
IndieVelo is very good for racing. Very realistic bike physics. And very addictive. I race in The Danish IndieVelo leage twice Per week. If peoples power or heart rates become suspicious, their results are pulled automatically from the standing.
Best ad sequence ever
If they're able to do structured training in a virtual world well, I could see them attracting a ton of people who aren't intereseted in Zwift's gamification stuff
Switched to Rouvy this season and couldnt be happier.
stealth sponsor of ikea as well
🤣🤣🤣 Went into Ikea last night intending to spend 36€. Came out spending 268€. Plus ice cream. 🍦
@Dcrainmaker I do the same very frequently. Fun fact, it makes a great place for a first date. It's sort of like an escape room but with a food court and you can buy stuff for your living room
@@anklexpress🤣 comment of the month right there. 👍
Also, meatballs.
Thanks Ray. It is more like the Tacx trainer software before Garmin bought them out
I love this idea and will be trying it out for the first time this weekend. I've been waiting for a good alternative to zwift for some time. Rouvy was tempting, but this is a no brainer... especially since it'll come with my premium TP subscription.
If you listen to the owners of training peaks, they are not stupid. They are VERY methodical about what they add in that "it isn't a waste of time". If they bought IndieVelo there is a very much a strong business use cases that their coaches want met.
The virtual cycling industry is years behind the gaming industry… Since the social aspect of those games is such a huge factor, they should just do what many video games do: game’s free-to-play with some kind of season pass that gives you aesthetic items that are only available that way. Play on people’s FOMO and get much richer then via the current method. My whoosh seems to be going down this route, and will inevitably extinguish it’s competition
I am sceptical. Free-to-play games rely on whales - a small group of people willing to pay lots of money, most gamers don't spend anything. But this only works if you have millions of players, I don't think millions of people will be willing to exercise with a cycling game, even if it's free. I used Zwift for over a year, and my avatar was largely the same one I created on day 1. Personally I was only interested in it as a training tool, and didn't really care about how my character looked. So I don't think that athletes are comparable to gamers. But that's just my opinion.
What better consumer group to look for whales than cyclists though? @@feezee82
So, turn something that is good for you into another tool to suck money out your picket and add not real value to your life. Yeah....humanity is doomed.
I’m so confused to see Ray not wearing a single watch or whoop device 🤪
👀
wait, that was Ray? I assumed it was a guest commentator, what with those unadorned, TSA-friendly arms.
@@Dcrainmaker But he is wearing a ring ;) What's he testing ??
@@DcrainmakerSporting some impressive tan lines on each wrist.
@@PaulioNZtesting marriage 😂
Thanks Ray. I like this format video. Best regards Martin
I can't believe people expect anything in life to be free. What virtual world are they living in?
Yeah just like health care lmao
I don't expect stuff to be free, but reasonably priced. Switched from Zwift because I just couldn't get myself to spend 20€ / month for a piece of software that's average at best.
I guess you just don't understand how free apps make money.
There's ton of "free" business models across all sorts of industries that make unbelievable profits each year.
@@molochz yes but that's not the model IndieVelo or the biking industry knows how to do successfully
@WowRixter Doesn't mean anything. Wasn't the platform in beta?
IndieVelo is great, and it's always exciting to see that he listens to users (unlike Zwift). The main things which have kept me on Zwift is social (indie will catch up), slightly better cartoon graphics and movement, and importantly, a good number of flat and rolling route options (which I don't believe indieVelo has much of yet). Hopefully with the support of TrainingPeaks, those things will improve.
This could be the thing to get me to switch from Zwift, as I would be looking at it as getting the additional training functionality for only a few dollars more per month.
Thanks for the video Ray!
Does anyone know of the app will be available on Apple TV in New Zealand?
I cannot find it so far (indievelo or TP)
They HAVE TO make it cheaper than $20/month especially since 80% of their users will most likely not be interested in Training Peaks (never heard of it until now). This could kill Indie Velo unless they come up with something more reasonable. 100,000 users at $5/month is more profitable than like 6 users at $20/month.
As far as the advertising goes... just place it in appropriate places at appropriate times: The billboard is one of the worst placements. Why not advertise something pre/post race while you're waiting at the start gate. After a long session food, recovery, whatever else a rider might be craving... Lots of these companies are out of touch. Zwift especially - increasing their price drastically right before summer starts and right as competitors are appearing.
Tried today for the first time. Seems to be really good!
Unfortunately, a tech acquisition by a big established player of a new fast moving startup very rarely results in the established player speeding up their own pace of delivery & innovation. It does, however, usually mean a giant increase in red tape and a corresponding slow down in the rate of development / delivery for the startup though 😢
TrainingPeaks is a platform for professional and serious amateur athletes. The new developments of TrainingPeaks Virtual will take this path and will give coaches and athletes more professional tools to improve their training. Zwift will be used in the future mostly by general fitness crowd and those wannabe poser-racer-cheaters.
Towards your jet and yacht. 😁
Woot! Only a few million more to go! Thanks!!!
9:00 joke’s on you, I’m watching this video while 7 intervals deep and I can’t even see the screen or make out what you’re saying 😂
😂😂😂
Thanks Ray for another great review and thoughts on things.
What happened to the rim of your front wheel?
I wonder if this will reignite the Zwift / Trainer Road partnership talks.
MyWoosh is closer to taking on Zwift than IndieVelo is.
If TP Virtual wants to challenge Zwift they definitely need to make it more price competitive, in order for people to jump the fence
Does it work with Apple TV?
Yes, albeit technically only for the original Founders Club folks at the moment in beta. But it is available for those people. It's unclear when TrainingPeaks will expand access further.
@Dcrainmaker thanks be great if made available for apple tv . I know most my crew use that . I wonder if they let new members join lol ?
Made the switch to Mywhoosh and dont think ill be going back to Zwift
Kinda wild that we are in 2024 and STILL need to explain why things cost money. Wonder how many people would be fine doing their day job for free. Crazy world.
@dcrainmaker I wonder if you could dive into how in the world it could be that 1 guy, George, could do so much more than Zwift all by himself? It is mind blowing that he can add features and roads at an amazing pace while Zwift languishes with road construction slower than real life and seemingly complete indifference to things that people would like, such as organizing the garage, or native dual recording. Or in other words, WTF Zwift.
To be fair to Zwift, George honestly hasn't added much in the way of roads/routes. And the routes/roads he does have are incredibly basic in terms of scenario. Zwift on the other hand spends a ton of time on the sceneic elements and creating specific memorable things. Do people care about that? Obviously, depends on the person's preferences.
Likewise, George is mostly able to sidestep the heavier support burder than comes with Zwift's user base and reach. Likewise, the support and management of all the Zwift Club related things takes overhead.
Which as I clearly noted, isn't to downplay what George is doing. He did an incredible amount of work each week - and I've long said that Zwift's staffing and speed of execution don't seem to match. But there is a factual difference between laying a generic road across a slate of green grass (IndieVelo) and buildings tons of custom graphic assets/worlds/etc (Zwift). Doesn't explain all the other features of course, but in terms of road construction, I don't think anyone would say IndieVelo did more there.
When Jet Black full review?
I see the new Jetblack Victory in your video. Would you recommend waiting for it to be released or take advantage of a Neo 2T or Kickr Core Zwift One deals?
Is it possible to somohow try this on stationary bike?
I struggle with all these platforms that use this RGT/BKool is the look / feel of the rider turning and pedaling, it's too happy valley, a slight shift to the right and the rider falls to the right and the pedalling out of the saddle looks like a robot. Zwift knows it's a video game but the movement looks more realistic even if the dynamics aren't (wind, braking etc.) the graphics and engine are more game than sim and that's where they struggle, if they want more people moving to their platform they have to close the gap with real feel and graphics
Good overview and explanation. I’d be interested in $10/mo starter tier and would like to eventually dabble with maybe basic features of trainer road, get me hooked and I’ll go to the $20/mo.
If I recall, and I may be wrong, Indievelo was going to be more of a racing platform? TrainingPeaks could push that, as their customers are committed athletes. If George can make it tough to cheat people would trust it more then Zwift possibly
very good info
The cycling workout games need to understand that they need professional game developers and designers already.
From graphics, UI and UX to performance. It’s like the bar is the TdF games (that look and perform like dog shit).
The challenge continues to be that big game studios with excellent graphics largely target gamers with high-end systems (either console, PC, or otherwise). Whereas most cyclists are using older hardware they have lying around. Obviously, some, have high-end computers, but most don't. Add to that, dealing with all of the wonky sensor accessories/inputs that typical game developers don't have to deal with. I'd love to see it be better, but for better or worse, the market has spoken: Every game with swanky graphics that's tried to come in and take market share has failed, largely because most cyclists see graphics as secondary to other in-game cycling aspects (social, connectivity, platform availability, etc...).
NOTHING BEATS ZWIFT
Look at that fancy Mediterranean "cave" :D
I think Training Peaks is about to learn the same lesson Wahoo learned, as Bing learned, and a whole host of others.
Zwift is far, Far, FAR from perfect, but inertia is a hell of a thing to overcome.
What about meetups to ride with your buddies?
Is it included in a coach's account?
They claim not yet
why did i not know about this! 🙏
Going to be using it while free. I may reactivate my TP account a bit later.
Remember, if something is free, you are the product.
I can sign-up for a $10 indivelo only but not the whole package, otherwise, I'll go back to ZWIFT.
Do you think Trainer Road and Zwift will merge. Last year you did a video on the rumours…
Not at this point. The deal was close and offered, but ultimately one side decided against it. At this point, I don’t see that deal/offer ever happening again.
I’ve no idea how busy the IndieVelo platform is at peak times but it will empty overnight once a fee lands because most of the people there, are only there because it’s a free lunch. At that point TrainingPeaks should see they have to do something to attract Zwift users (people who actually pay for stuff) because almost no one wants to ride in an empty virtual world (like RGT was) especially if they’re paying for it! This could be great for consumers as the Wahoo acquisition of RGT initially appeared it might be, or it could go the same way that RGT did
As a legacy Sufferflandrian, I feel this right to my soul.
Disagree - I have a Training Peaks account and had never heard of indieVelo. I stopped paying for Zwift and started using MyWhoosh, mainly as it integrates with Training Peaks. I couldn’t care less if there’s people to race as all I’m interested in doing is workouts my coach has set me.
TrainingPeaks has the users already. They're huge. They're not buying the userbase of non-paying users, they're buying the tech.
@@Chris-pt6hh 100% true. It's still a lot of inertia to overcome. Doesn't make it insurmountable by any stretch. Just a big hill to climb.
If you are going to charge, you have to give me a reason to pay for this as opposed to Zwift. The only thing I see so far is a Zwift copy that is slightly worse than Zwift. You need the killer feature that will make me switch. Zwift has the social bit sewn up. What is TP/IV going to have that is going to bring the masses over?
If training peaks think that charging 20€ per month is the way, they will face problems... No one will leave zwift to join them 😉
I would try it for a month. Bit of variation
Perhaps I'm in the minority, I pay for TrainingPeaks and I pay for Zwift. But I have yet to give IndieVelo a try, so I see this through a neutral to positive lens. If anything, I have questions about how this might impact TrainingPeaks’ neutrality status with all other training platforms. Up until now everyone played nicely with TP, because it was essentially additive. Will the dynamic change?
I might join IV annually for $125 rather than $180, though
Been on IV for the last year or so. I always knew it wouldn't be free forever. However, I'm too old for pretending that I'm training. That is, that I'm aiming for a real improvement. I don't subscribe to this whole hype of everyone staying young forever. Paying for TP premium is not for me. So come March, or more likely when the summer is over next year, I'll probably go to Rouvy or even Zwift. Having real people behind those avatars just helps me with motivation. You know, like in the real world when you're racing that unaware granny on an ebike. I thought I would stay with IV assuming they will start charging something close to what Rouvy does. Guess, one should never assume. But then, life goes on and this is just a minor nuisance. Now, if they would include water worlds for indoor rowing (kayaking in my case), that would make them stand out among all those online platforms and I might reconsider.
Zwift is perfect for the sneak attack on people ahead of you that don't know you are racing them. I have crushed so many of them. Feels good.
Are you not supposed to build the Ikea desk?
I mean, a pile of them boxes still worked out as a desk with much less work!
Wish there was an option of a one time, offline payment, like other video games. You pay, you play the game offline. Charge for new maps or big features.
But what is the idea when you're offline? Just an exploration of a virtual world on a bicycle? Racing against NPCs?
@jobicek same as when you're riding alone. Do big climbs, cover miles, structured workouts. Maybe there are achievements
This. Zwift at 20 a month is a rip off considering the glacial pace of new features being launched. One pays for overhead and waste. I'd gladly pay $20 a month for something that looks like its actively developed. Zwift lost me when I noticed its $15 a month. Separately, i need only structured workouts and scenery, dont need any company.
Would ZWIFT buy TrainerRoad?
They tried...
I will die of old age before this rivals Zwift.
The problem I have with these cycling games is that a triple A pc game costs 60 to 70 bucks to outright own the game. In no way a monthly payment of 10 to 15 bucks a month represents the worth of these games. The pricing of swift is absolutely absurd and that is why I do not use it.
The cycling game industry needs an out right owning alternative. If similar to indie velo or rgt I’d be more than happy to pay 60 bucks.
AAA game studios will typically spend upwards of $100M to design the game, then, they sell *tens of millions* of copies for that $60-$70. Thus, their revenue is vastly higher. And that sets aside all the incremental in-game purchase revenue too (which Zwift doesn't have). People often like to compare to the big game studios, but the fact is, that's like comparing the production costs and economies of scale of cars to buses. Similiar in theory, but not in reality.
@@Dcrainmaker Yeah fair point but indie velo is not even close to a triple a game development wise. As you mentioned in your video indie velo is developed by a single person in 1,5 to 2 years. So let's make a calculation. let's say he worked 80 hours a week on this for two years at an hourly cost including overhead of 250 dollars. That would be an investment of just more than 2.000.000. Currently indie velo has 40.000 users without any marketing. If all those 40.000 would buy the game at 60 bucks that would mean a revenue of 2.400.000. Off course tax would still need to be paid over that money but this game in it's current state deserves more than 40.000 users.
I use indie velo, and if i had the option to buy it at 70 or 80 bucks, i'd consider it.
Zwift canceled immediately today!
Green washing and sports washing are definitely not in the same category as whitewashing Ray...
Is it me, or does it REALLY look like Zwift?
No
yes its not Zwift, its worse and as a paid sub for TP, total waste of $, IndieVelo (terrible brand name) isnt gonna help that. Zwift still my favorite monthly sub since 2016!
this sounds really interesting but i have to say that indievelo looks like a complete copy of zwift ??
Linux? It seems to be a free thing that is supported by millions. So is heaps of other open source software. The thesis of things having to cost money is completely flawed.
You could build a OSS cycling game and have it be peer to peer networked with no central server needed that could cost a central service anything to run.
Maybe you could build it? Seeing as time is free
I understand that free doesn't pay the bills, but I am predominantly a runner who indoor cycles once a month or so. 12.99 for one workout is too expensive for me. I wish platforms could provide a usable free tier rather than just being totally behind a paywall.
Zwift has free rides
Try, My Whoosh
Rouvy gives you I think 12mi free per month, so as long as your 1-ride-a-month is short, or you set it to a climbing stage, you're good there.
Zwift has 25km free monthly
Just record your ride as an indoor ride on your head unit then. Zwift is free right now for treadmill users.
No way is it pronounced "in-de-velo" lol. Please tell me I'm not crazy. 😂
It s not about paying, its about paying that much. Yeah, 20-what-ever is cheap if you use a service 4h/day but not if you use it once a week. In my case i payed the 12(?)$ for iv, had a live data api. Now i m forced (after a year) to pay 20$ for a service like trainingpeaks that gives me no benefit - even worse - until now i don't know why i should use it.
Your not totally correct about "free". There's software free as "freedom" not as "free beer".
It's software developed by community for the community.
If you have an expertise and like cycling, have indoor trainer. You don't have to get paid to develop something cool. It's just for fun.
Huh? It was developed by a single person. Not a community. Just. One. Person: George Gilbert.
Are we just not gonna talk about how many assets look similar to Zwift, especially for a former employee?
No one has a lock on making a tree in a virtual environment. All these visual elements are low res and easy to do. So easy one guy could do it while spending most of the time developing the platform. Nothing to see here.
Pretty sure I talked exactly about that.
@@ponderingfoxIt's the UI elements that stand out as similar to Zwift.
@ Video games look like video games.
@@ponderingfoxit’s the dialog boxes with fonts etc. For someone who knows Zwift and Indievelo only from TH-cam videos I wouldn’t be able to say which is which without a logo or trademark.
wish I could run this better on iPhone 12, getting tons of crashes
I´m just trying to run the thing on my Lenovo Core i5, but always freezes on Initialization Complete 100%... any help here, pls?
Happened to me too 😢
I had the same issue, got it running the first time via right click and run as administrator. Worked normally after that.
@@brucemorrison2374 ended up uninstalling and reinstalling and it works.
New studio?
He moved to Mallorca
Definitely not new yet! Just my backyard at the moment, surrounded by ikea boxes. 🤣 The “desk” is an unopened Ikea boxes too.
@@valiantabello Good move!
Yes George has done a fantastic job but IndieVelo really needs more scenic routes and, well, more routes overall
RIP indiVelo ... back to zwift
When I started racing in the late 70's , you only needed a bike, shorts, socks and shoes. We didn't even have helmets.
Dangerous misinformation