I was brought up by parents who were strict atheist Communists. I found Jesus at the age of 55 when my world fell apart and I had nowhere to go but to God. I asked Jesus into my heart and He came in! Even through trials His grace has been on me and I have been full of joy and gratitude ever since!
As an atheist I don't care for too many apologists. Cliff is the only one I like. I have been watching him for years. He's no less then brilliant. I may not agree with everything he says regarding the existence of supernatural beings but I have never seen anyone deconstruct philosophical arguments better then he does. I also really appreciate the fact that he doesn't damn people to hell when they disagree with him. I've learned so much from this guy. And I have a confession. I like seeing him demolish snotty, 19 year old college students who think they know everything.
I can handle some WLC. Very, very smart guy. Gets a little bogged down sometimes with his Kalam argument. I like the fact though that he usually sticks to philosophy for most of his lectures. said that all the preachers claiming a less then 10,000 year old earth are an embarrassment. Thank you Dr. Craig. I have heard of Ravi Zacharias but I have not listened to any of his stuff. Thank you I'll check it out.
Ravi is a good story teller(truth), and charismatic speaker. I have read his book, "Walking From East To West: God In the Shadows", it is a good read. I have heard him speak in person. Would love to see him again. Peace
Its funny how for someome who is an atheist and said that her life is meaningless that in the end she said she has to get to class! So her life does mean something when she is determined to get to her class to learn!
The more I watch these videos the more I get the gospel message in which Jesus says only a wicked generation needs signs...I guess that's our generation :-( There's so much evidence in the human experience and life its scary for the existence of a God that its scary. Love, sacrifice, unnecessary beauty in nature.... its incredible to me that intelligent people still question this. May God continue to bless Cliffe in his work and ministry for the bringing the truth to the forefront.
I wish I could give this video more than one thumb up. If more Christian can have this type of dialogue and are able to teach and win an argument without insulting others, and do it so intelligently, and respectfully. Well done, brother.
@Zymbo , life doesn't have a meaning is absurd , life has many meanings ,but get your point , besides theist and atheists and all in between are reaching out for it ,such is the meaning of life .
"I've read the gospels, thank you" "Ok, what sin did Jesus attack most harshly?" "I don't know I read it when I was 12" Well that fell apart quick, haha
Cliffe, I praise Jesus Christ for your ministry, you are one of the most courageous, knowledgeable, and wisest men I have ever come across, I am a young earth creationist who believes evolution is the greatest lie ever told to humanity, what are your thoughts on evolution, the Bible clearly states we are created in the image of God, why would God use millions of years to create man when the universe can fit in the palm of His hand? Thank you brother Cliffe! Praise Jesus, God Bless!
that young lady saying "all religious people have been indoctrinated" unbelievable. Couldn't possibly be that free thinking people have reached the conclusion that Christ is the way and chosen to live for him rather than......what exactly?
I can't figure out why the little lesbian girl was so mad at Cliffe. Dude's out there trying to have meaningful discussions and treating everyone with utmost respect, and almost every response she gave was laced in anger and "how dare you!"
🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ?? If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept 👍 The claim that theistic morality is somehow "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
CLIFF HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD REGARDING THE YOUNG GIRL BEING OFFENDED BY CHRISTIANS... BUT SHES A SMART GIRL... SHE WILL BE BACK. GOOD ON HER FOR SPEAKING HER MIND
@Zain844 " the bible never said slavery is good." The bible doesn't explicitely say very much is good. How the bible works is it gives you stories and examples of how god wants his people to live. I think you should take the time to read it because the rules of slavery are in there with plenty of other examples of where Christians STILL take rules. It is just that society has outlawed slavery (despite the bible) and christians have realised they need to move with the times and ignore certain sections of the bible. Jesus explicitely told slaves to obey their masters for example. "It talks about slavery and gives guidelines, but it never endorsed slavery or said it was moral." laying down rule son how to own other people as property IS endorsing it. The entire bible is used as a moral reference, why are you ignoring this one section? hwere does you decision to ignore it come from? Why heed ANY of it?
@@170221dn Im convinced you have taken the entire slavery in the bible deal out of context. You do realize that the slavery you're referring to is still alive and well in the world today? Not because the Bible gives it a pass but because people are sinful and evil.
@@jelly7310 So in your own words the slavery from the bible was sinful and evil. We agree. Now just stop and think why you haven’t disowned the bible as a moral source.
@@170221dn the slavery in the bible is not the same as the slavery of today. Tell me what you know about the slavery in the Bible. Who were slaves? Why were they slaves? Did they have choice? Did they volenteer? I challenge you to study about the slavery in ancient times before you answer my questions. One more, what do you recommend as a moral guide that is better than the Bible?
That first woman reminds me of a passenger of a sinking ship that complains that the life rafts are fundamentally flawed because it is still possible to die while in them.
I find it rather amusing how clearly the girl contradicts himself. She says morality is relative and then implies that rational people would find stoning gays immoral, hence others are irrational. Not to mention that she clealy commited "is-ought'" fallacy, didn't it also show that morality is objective because if people, who are rational (in line with Truth) would find x immoral, the we can say that x is immoral, truly. Much of the "morality is relative" show is just a scam. Many people who adhere to are themselves most adherent pushers of their morality in society. They would call every other names. They say that just to prevent any accountability. So they would ferverently accuse others of immorality over things they dislike and when others do the same to them, they hide behind the statement.
The young lady tried to be convincing, but truth of Cliffe`s answers were piercing her conscience. The tragic truth for the moral relativist is when you hold God’s funeral and bury His moral law along with Him, something will take His place. That something will be an individual or group of individuals who take power and, in authoritarian fashion, impose their own moral framework on everyone else. The world has already seen such things in the regimes of Stalin and Pol Pot. The far better course of action is to thankfully acknowledge God as the true source of good and His objective moral law, which God established only for the well being of His creation.
The world was made through Jesus Christ. Sin has deformed us but Jesus came to transform the body, soul, and the spirit. Since Jesus Christ came to give you eternal life and you decide to ignore him then hell is waiting for you. see www.gotquestions.org
does cliff tell us when and where or what university he will speak at next? i'd like to take my daughter for a sit in if possible, i really look up to him he is a very intelligent speaker :)
it might indeed not be the best word for it (english is not my first language, so i don't think i have a much better alternative) i think she tries to refer to the fact that 'god's nature' is what it is, apperently for no reason... perhaps it might have been other, perhaps not... unless anyone knows why god's nature is what it is?
Because God is existence period. Anything that departs from his nature is evil or wrong. Its not like good and evil are opposites. Evil is the absence of good the same way darkness is the absence of light.Evil is not a thing the same way darkness is not a thing.
j2mfp78 there are many problems in that short text :) But i understand that you reflect the christian view. You've elsewhere accepted that moral views are relatively depending on the framework onr holds.. So i don't see why you assert this view here as a sort of 'absolute'. You are defings words and linking them to a concept. Nothing in your cliam is connected to anything 'real and observable'... Nor do you get to 'define what words mean', especially not in such a weird, deeply biased sense. And if it is true what you stated, it seems these moral laws are indeed arbitrary and don't truly adress 'how we ought to live'.
No I already said I believe somethings are objectivly evil regardless what anyone thinks or there frame work. Also you are right I am describing the God of the Christian bible. Cause thats what i feel is the most in touch with reality everyone is free to choose what they believe about the world we are alll smart enough to decide what seems most reasonable to each there own.
j2mfp78 again, my reference was to 'relativism', not 'subjectivity'. And yes to each his own.... And at the end of the conversation you have said zero about the topic, which was the arbitrary nature of christian morality.
Morality in essence is a set of rules or princibles that we live by. We created these rules over a long period of human history, they are not set in stone. We improve them and fine tune them as we learn how to live. It's much more complicated than that obviously.
You can't say morality is entirely made up and also say you can improve it, because that would assume there was some external standard by which you could tell it was improved or not.
@@davidplummer2619 I don't believe that to be the case david. Mankind is always looking for ways to improve things in all aspects of life. Look at things we invent, the phone, the car, the tv, virtually everything we've invented, we've improved on it, there was no 'external standard' by which we could measure it. Compare the 1st mobile phone, to the latest model, even the best phone around today will be seen as old in 5 years time. If you take morality, what was the moral standard for cyber crime? .. clearly, it didn't exist years ago, or a better example maybe, what is God's moral standard for blasphemy or heresy, what does the Bible say we should do with those people?
God did not “create” morality. What we see as the moral law comes from Gods very own character and nature. It is a reflection of who God is. Lying is not wrong because got created it to be so. Lying is wrong because God, eternally, is not a liar! Lying goes against his nature. Gods eternal, unchanging nature is what gives these laws the quality of being objective. Never changing, rooted into reality itself.
Amazing how Cliffe turns the bigot arument completely around back at her. And it makes perfect sense. I guess Cliffe is just another bigoted Christian on her list that has wounded her pride.
Pastor Knechtle, Larry Wessels-CAnswersTV, here, and others, are working to get the Gospel out on these mostly pagan campuses. Some used to be very Christian and turned out many Pastors and Theologians.
If you build a machine you write a manual that describes how it works best. God does the same via When he came to earth and taught what works best with the machine He's made. In the back of our manuals today lists warnings against misuse the machine. This is what we call sin, the misuse of the machines God made.
Her: "Morality is based on the preservation of the human species". I don't think she anticipates the question: "Why should the human species be preserved?"
Hi Clifford, i tend to agree with you on this, it could well be that there is no ultimate meaning to life, it's up to us a species to get on as best as we can with each other and to make life as good as we can for ourselves and for one another.
Firstly, I don't think clifford was making a statement. He was questioning the questioner's logic which is why clifford used a question mark. Secondly, the claim that there is no answer to the question "what is the meaning of life" is a cop-out that atheists use because they have no answer.
bonnie43uk Good question, but it isn't "according to me". It's according to our creator. The reason we exist is to love God and be loved by God; that is the sole purpose why God created us. Now that being said, remember that love cannot be forced. If a man forces a woman to love him, it isn't love, it's rape. Likewise, God wants us to love Him and therefore cannot force us to love Him because that wouldn't be real love. Our life on earth is our time to decide to love Him and therefore be with Him forever or hate Him and therefore be apart from Him forever.
Nathan Ebersole So what if I don't see any credible evidence of God? How can i love a God I can find no evidence for? I also can't hate a God that I can't see any evidence for. I fully understand that you find the evidence credible, but I've not been convinced by it. Hence why i lack belief in your God, or any other God.
Cliff my brother, I know you must know the scriptures that say there is no excuse for not knowing God because He has made Himself known to all men. I'm paraphrasing of course. And right now I don't have the exact scripture. I am coming from NT.
Ahhh ... not nothing. The QM had to be there first. Also there is a physics paper on a universe from nothing* but that nothing has an '*' * nothing means a quantum vacuum ... which is something
I don’t understand how a being that’s all knowing, that is outside of time, that can see every possible outcome can do anything arbitrary. How can God the all knowing 8:49 do anything arbitrary?
So God the "all knowing" didn't just create Satan "arbitrarily" but created him specifically with the attributes that would lead him to rebel knowing in advance all that would result 🤔 God also didn't just "arbitrarily" create cancer, that causes untold suffering to innocent children but did so intentionally. The same applies with regards to diseases, Viruses, Tsunamis, famine, Earthquakes ect ... *BUT HE LOVES US* 🤔🙄😅🤣
Cliff. You are so good, so this is not a cut on you, but I feel you had a missed opportunity with the first girl when you said she must of been hurt. That could of been so good to go down that road, she could of opened up.
The second student sounds like he is asking those questions for extra credit or for a class project. Lol He has almost no interest in the actual answers.
You can tell the kids questions are always intended to defame God along with the bible. If there was only one witness, they ask, "why did the all powerful, all knowing God only one witness and not multiple witnesses, wouldn't he have shown everyone so that there would be no doubt?" Then, when there are multiple witnesses, they ask, "why did an all powerful, all knowing God give multiple witnesses, couldn't he get it right with one?" 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Aye aye aye, cliff has some real patience because they always say the same thing and can't seem to actually listen. God bless him 🙏
Sadly, this is a poor handling of the euthyphro dilemma. Cliffs tried to turn it around to her moral subjectivity, which is valid, but escapes having to answer the euthyphro dilemma, which really isn't a dilemma.
love Cliff and what he does but I think hes wrong when he says that the OT Prophets did not know about Christ or His coming. They most certainly did know ...
God went from eating pork being sin to go ahead and eat pork. It's cleansed by prayer. Pork went from being an abomination to clean but wait there's more! When he returns to judge the world he's going to judge those who sanctify themselves eating pork! Don't you just love the objective standards of God?
God doesn't look to a standard of morality otherwise that would be God and not Him. So by logic God must be the standard of morality by which things are judged since He made things good, as said in Creation, and He told them whatever is outside His righteous character is therefore evil. You can't explain morality outside an absolute moral standard. It's not arbitrary, it's absolute because since God is the standard it is unchanging, hence keeping in line with His character. People challenge morality by acting outside the character of God, and we see in humans how that gives detrimental effects such as natural guilt, stress, sadness, and frustration after such acts outside the standard of good. If morality is relative toward the help and usefulness of society then we can conclude that slavery is helpful for free labor and quicker consumer products. If I need a kidney, then I could reason that capturing someone and stealing their kidney benefits me or even someone else, even if it brought harm to others. You could reason the extermination of the Jews in Nazi Germany was justified by the fact that Hitler wished for a master race for his people. Thus he reasoned that getting rid of Jews and other people. That would, in theory, help the society become better. Other countries could reason then to have a government run gang that kidnaps and sells girls as sex slaves to bring more money into the country. It would help the overall society, right? With moral relativity, our society would collapse in violence and injustice. Those who would even dare standing up to it will be asked, "Well that's your opinion on morality, but morality to me is relative so my opinion is just as good as yours. So then, how can you tell me what I do is wrong?" Therefore, since it is built in every human being, this is also said in the Bible, to understand the standard of good in their hearts and naturally think that things such as stealing, rape, and murder are wrong and should justly be punished, then the standard must be an absolute standard that could not have been conjured by natural processes that they claim are random and by chance. The only explanation is then God.
1." ... So by logic God must be the standard of morality..." you mean 'by definition', because you defined god to be like this. which makes it a concept you hold, not a necessary existing thing. 2. "It's not arbitrary, it's absolute because since God is the standard it is unchanging, hence keeping in line with His character." There is no logical 'beacuse' in that sentence... the two attributes of the (proposed) devine morality (cfr: arbitrary and absolute) are not logically contradictory... saying something about the absolute nature (you think it has) implies nothing about whether it is arbitrary. Logic doesn't work that way. 3. What you do write seems to actually implie it is arbritrary, at least in the sense that god did not 'chose his moral nature for a reason', and it is therefor purposeless and undirected as a principle 4. godwin law
"you mean 'by definition', because you defined god to be like this. which makes it a concept you hold, not a necessary existing thing." No because if God were to look to anything else other than Him than that would be God. I don't define God to be like this. His nature is seen everywhere and His qualities are shown clearly, people just deny the evidence. "There is no logical 'beacuse' in that sentence... the two attributes of the (proposed) devine morality (cfr: arbitrary and absolute) are not logically contradictory... saying something about the absolute nature (you think it has) implies nothing about whether it is arbitrary. Logic doesn't work that way." You said yourself that my statement was "not logically contradictory" I am not defining any nature of God that does not already exist and is clearly explained through His Word. I then reason upon that how morality cannot come from any other process or law of nature other than a God. That is logic. " What you do write seems to actually implie it is arbritrary, at least in the sense that god did not 'chose his moral nature for a reason', and it is therefor purposeless and undirected as a principle" It does not imply at all that moral law is arbitrary. I am explaining how relativism reasoning will lead down to those other things that naturally are wrong to people. "godwin law" I see no logical point or rebuttal in you bringing up this statement about how more people will use Nazi analogies. Mine makes sense doesn't it? It applies to this moral relativism that they used and that could be used again. The only reason people think that what they did was at all wrong is because there is an absolute moral standard put into man that is not naturally prevalent in nature and cannot evolve by some process of "evolution", therfore it must have come there by supernatural means since nature cannot give us things such as: self consciousness, language, thought, reasoning, and morality. Hence God.
God doesn't' "decide" what is Good. God does not "decree" something and then poof it becomes good, God decrees something because HE is good. Something is good because it conforms to God's nature. A human cannot become not a human. God cannot become not Good, that is a contradiction. Morals flow from his goodness, not from his arbitrary decisions.
The basis of morality is at its roots the concern for the well being of oneself and others. The same can be said of health and safety. Nobody claims that there must be a God for one to have a concern for the health and safety of oneself and others. Such a concern could simply come from conscious beings coming to the realization that it is in their collective best interests to be concerned with such matters for the sake of their own survival and well being. Same could be said of morality. Nothing to see here.
Saying God's moral decrees are necessarily arbitrary is a nonsequitur. The Euthyphro Dilemma applied to God is nonsense. It's interesting how people will venerate a standard or source of goodness that is inanimate, like Plato's form of the good or "the universe sending you a message" but the moment that source becomes a living entity, they dismiss it as "arbitrary". (I suspect that it's because they want a source that can't talk so they can feel free to ignore it when they want to do something shady.) I submit that it is impossible for the source of transcendent morality to be anything BUT a living entity because goodness requires intent and inanimate things can't form intent. Therefore anything we think of as good that has only some inanimate source is not actually good but just dumb luck.
🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ?? If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept 👍 The claim that theistic morality is somehow "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@@trumpbellend6717 Don't try to make it about me, Mr. Divide And Conquer. I didn't "determine" anything or set myself up as THE aribiter of such things. These ideas about God were around long before me and will be long after me. The question is whether are they accurate or not, which has to be decided on grounds independent of what I or you or anyone else arbitrarily "determines". I say they are accurate, you say no. Do you want to get into all that (I am willing) or are you just here for another drive-by? So my means of determining the "right" God are necessarily arbitrary because all supernatural beliefs run together like so much fingerpaint to you because you can't be bothered to put in the work of sorting them out? By this logic, there can be no real $20 bill because there are so many counterfeits out there. If there is no God to ground morality in, then WHAT DO YOU ground it in? Feelings? Popular vote? Sociocultural relativism and drift? Molecules?
@@davidplummer2473 Lol let's assume there is a god, and let's even assume he grounds morality. That still doesn't change the fact that your opinion as to the "correct" one is no less subjective or no more valid than any of the opinions of followers of the thousands of other different conflicting and subjective gods dear. 🤫🤭
@@davidplummer2473 For me and like minded people he moral grounding for morality is based upon our desired goal of wellbeing, and the values it incorporates like empathy, respect, equality altruism, reciprocity. We try to actualize a healthy flourishing coperative society based upon said values that is why one "ought" to treat another's as you would like to be treated, this is our "reference point" or standard. For example..... One "ought not steal if you wish to live in a society were property is not stolen. One "ought" not murder if you wish to live in a society were people are not murdered. One "should" or "ought" do something if Its conducive with the actualisation of a situation that conforms with one's values. These "values" themselves are subjective by definition however it is entirely possible to make Objective declarations or decisions 'Within a framework of subjective values. Now these values may not matter to YOU but they certainly do to those that share said "values" and that's all that's required to influence how they live their lives and this has "real" consequences in the "real" world irespective of your personal perception of how your specific subjective invisible friend feels about it. *Tell me dear why OUGHT one do what your God wants* ???
@@davidplummer2473 If YOU want to claim your particular god as the objective reference point for morality. You first have to demonstrate *objectively* that YOUR particular god EXISTS and is infact THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and *not merely the only true god in your subjective opinion* That he is "MORAL" ( what standard did you use to judge this ? ) Are all the other gods and denominations other than yours false and yours true If so prove it . otherwise you offer nothing but a *subjective opinion on morality* *CAN YOU DO THIS YES OR NO* ?? Please note if you are unwilling or unable to answer this basic question, then at least have the honesty to recognise the hypocrisy of your position.
Problem with the girl's argument is that she lacks the proper understanding of the Character of an OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESNET, and OMIPOTENT GOD. God's laws and commands aren't "arbitrary" because He isn't a mere mortal with a meager understanding of justice and goodness to begin with. People like these act as if God is some random dude in the sky with the average human's reasoning and logic. You can't put God in a box of your own limited understanding of what it is to be GOD. He is GOD.
Let's structure this in the form of a logical syllogism with premises and a conclusion, then you can indicate which specific premises you disagree with that would invalidate the derived conclusion ........ *Premise one* The Christian God is said to be morally perfect, loving, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. *Premise two* Belief in this specific god is required to prevent an eternal torment and attain salvation. *Premises three* The Christian God wants all to know of his existence and thus be saved. *Premise four* The Christian God would have both the ability and desire to demonstrate his existence to all. *Premise five* Almost three quarters of the world population do not think the Christian God exists. *Conclusion* The Christian God as described does *NOT* exist
Does Cliffe understand what an assertion is? That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. How do you know God's character and whether he can go against it or change it. All you know about the person you worship is contained in some 2000-year-old copies of copies of copies and translations. With all there is to life why waste your life living for a book about people you don't know? Im black and I was indoctrinated from childhood with the same Christian doctrine that Cliffe espouses.
If it is the word of god, then read exodus 21 on slavery. This is just a small example of the morbid morality teachings of the bible. The great flood is also a great example of god his all forgiveness. If Jesus is god than the dying on the cross and resurrection story becomes a meaningless bedtime story. He just took a nap for three days. Never could make any sense of dying for our sins because he simply did NOT die!! But the greatest fallacies he proclaims are denoting the gospels "eye witness accounts" . This means that he knows really nothing about the history of the bible. Main stream historian scholars have debunked this claim and I urge all theist to investigate this for themselves. Get down and dig for the facts and stay away from biased influencers. Be free and live prosperous 😃
Sorry the young man has no clue what he speaks of concerning morality because without a God it’s all relative sea cliffs arguments for that dismantling
"Good" and "Bad" are words used to describe movement or points on a reference standard or scale conceptualised by man that is based upon our shared goal with regards wellbeing and the values it incorporates like empathy altruism reciprocity equality, respect ect Whether an action is "Good" is entirely *"relative"* to the desired objective / goal one is trying to achieve, the specific situation our levels of information and understanding and the range of posible alternative actions and outcomes available. Whilst "God" is also a man made concept, the percieved whims of your "God" do not reflect these shared values and thus are irrelevant in any discussion of morality. Would you disagree ? What outcome do YOU think we are striving for when we use the the terms "good" or "bad" if not human wellbeing ?
@@trumpbellend6717 It’s real simply……it takes a mind & a conscious to understand Morality No mind or conscious other than Man’s, Man is the authority when it comes to Morality, meaning it’s relative Sorry, but that doesn’t square with reality….. rape sexism racism child abuse murder These actions are never relatively evil, they are always ABSOLUTELY evil…. Only way that can be true, a mind & conscious before Man’s mind & conscious ….a moral giver, who gives us a plumb line to measure morality by BTW-take my list & see if you can honestly say, these actions can be good….i don’t believe you can honestly say that
@@bigtxsdude // "It takes a mind and a conciousness to understand morality" // Agreed and mankind possess both. Morality is the cognitive process of differentiating between human intentions, decisions, and actions that are appropriate from those inappropriate. The recognition and evaluation of the consequences our choices have with regards to ourselves and others. My NOT believing in a mythological god in no way impedes the ability of forming such moral assessments. We are self aware conscious pain and emotion feeling individuals capable of love or hate, incredible acts of altruism or depravity. It's how we navigate through life and these potential extremes that define us, not our belief ( or lack of ) in anyone's specific subjective invisible "God" A "mind" is a word used to describe the emergent property facilitated by the electro chemical interactions of billions of neurons in a physical brain. We have zero examples of a mind that was not ultimately the result of a physical brain dear.
@@bigtxsdude // "a moral giver" // 🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" moral law giver subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ?? If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept 👍 The claim that theistic morality is somehow "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
I was brought up by parents who were strict atheist Communists. I found Jesus at the age of 55 when my world fell apart and I had nowhere to go but to God. I asked Jesus into my heart and He came in! Even through trials His grace has been on me and I have been full of joy and gratitude ever since!
Amen Barbara.
May God continue to bless you Barbara.
You opened your heart and GOD came in. Just as GOD said it is really about the human condition of our hearts (Genesis 8:21).
❤
communism the system that fails
I have a class I have to go. Best answer she gave. Poor girl...hope she thinks her arguments through again.
love your work Mr cliff. -see ya in heaven.
Where is heaven?
Thats right!
As an atheist I don't care for too many apologists. Cliff is the only one I like. I have been watching him for years. He's no less then brilliant. I may not agree with everything he says regarding the existence of supernatural beings but I have never seen anyone deconstruct philosophical arguments better then he does. I also really appreciate the fact that he doesn't damn people to hell when they disagree with him. I've learned so much from this guy.
And I have a confession. I like seeing him demolish snotty, 19 year old college students who think they know everything.
Cliff is very down to earth
I can handle some WLC. Very, very smart guy. Gets a little bogged down sometimes with his Kalam argument. I like the fact though that he usually sticks to philosophy for most of his lectures.
said that all the preachers claiming a less then 10,000 year old earth are an embarrassment. Thank you Dr. Craig.
I have heard of Ravi Zacharias but I have not listened to any of his stuff. Thank you I'll check it out.
+TheBay12345 +1 for WLC and especially Ravi Zacharias: he talks to the heart as well!
Thank you Jo I will certainly take a look. I am always looking for thoughtful conversation, lectures, debates etc.
Ravi is a good story teller(truth), and charismatic speaker. I have read his book, "Walking From East To West: God In the Shadows", it is a good read. I have heard him speak in person. Would love to see him again.
Peace
First girl is just a reflection of the pain she has experienced.... Cliffe seen through it all.. After awhile I was thinking "who hurt you" hahaha
Its funny how for someome who is an atheist and said that her life is meaningless that in the end she said she has to get to class! So her life does mean something when she is determined to get to her class to learn!
@@christopherlovesjesussomuc3749 She said ultimately, just like cliffe you misquote.
@@dperkins01 cliffe done a grear job as always.
The more I watch these videos the more I get the gospel message in which Jesus says only a wicked generation needs signs...I guess that's our generation :-( There's so much evidence in the human experience and life its scary for the existence of a God that its scary. Love, sacrifice, unnecessary beauty in nature.... its incredible to me that intelligent people still question this. May God continue to bless Cliffe in his work and ministry for the bringing the truth to the forefront.
There blind deaf and dumb
I wish I could give this video more than one thumb up. If more Christian can have this type of dialogue and are able to teach and win an argument without insulting others, and do it so intelligently, and respectfully. Well done, brother.
Are you achristian?
"Life doesn't have to have a meaning."
Haha! Try living that out consistently.
Yeah, and try telling your suicidal friend, who’s wife just cheated on him, that
@Zymbo , life doesn't have a meaning is absurd , life has many meanings ,but get your point , besides theist and atheists and all in between are reaching out for it ,such is the meaning of life .
But she turns around and says we have value.
Lmao life is meaningless but we have value.
What?!??
@@DidNotSeeYouThere yes, it is a bit back to front and upside down
@@ericscaillet2232 but if life is ultimate meaningless your life has no meaning. Therefore I could just kill you
Sometimes I think Cliffe has the patience of Mother Teresa on steroids...
"I've read the gospels, thank you"
"Ok, what sin did Jesus attack most harshly?"
"I don't know I read it when I was 12"
Well that fell apart quick, haha
I've learnt so much from watching your videos Cliff keep up the good work God Bless
Cliffe, I praise Jesus Christ for your ministry, you are one of the most courageous, knowledgeable, and wisest men I have ever come across, I am a young earth creationist who believes evolution is the greatest lie ever told to humanity, what are your thoughts on evolution, the Bible clearly states we are created in the image of God, why would God use millions of years to create man when the universe can fit in the palm of His hand?
Thank you brother Cliffe! Praise Jesus, God Bless!
that young lady saying "all religious people have been indoctrinated" unbelievable. Couldn't possibly be that free thinking people have reached the conclusion that Christ is the way and chosen to live for him rather than......what exactly?
This is one of the most common phrases by atheists.
By definition of indoctrination religious people are indoctrinated
I can't figure out why the little lesbian girl was so mad at Cliffe. Dude's out there trying to have meaningful discussions and treating everyone with utmost respect, and almost every response she gave was laced in anger and "how dare you!"
the first girl....wow just wow
Sadly lost. I pray God changes her heart, before it's too late.
Amen.
For someone who admitted that her life was meaningless she sure had to get to her class quick to learn.
This guy's ideology is sound I wish more Christians would learn to answer these kind of questions.
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There's a lot of false "Christians" out there, we know them by their fruit so when someone says to you "i am a Christian" investigate them further.
She huffs and puffs then walks off to class! 😂😂😂
wow .... that girl destroyed herself and then left ..!!!!!
Im surprised she said she had to get to class coming from a person who says life is meaninless.
Arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any REASON or system.
She use that word incorrectly multiple times.
🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ??
If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept 👍
The claim that theistic morality is somehow "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
CLIFF HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD REGARDING THE YOUNG GIRL BEING OFFENDED BY CHRISTIANS... BUT SHES A SMART GIRL... SHE WILL BE BACK. GOOD ON HER FOR SPEAKING HER MIND
powerful back and forth with the first young lady. I just find it incredibly hard to live out moral relativism.
Do you think slavery is moral?
If not then you don't have a source of subjective morality at least not in the bible.
@Zain844
" the bible never said slavery is good."
The bible doesn't explicitely say very much is good. How the bible works is it gives you stories and examples of how god wants his people to live. I think you should take the time to read it because the rules of slavery are in there with plenty of other examples of where Christians STILL take rules. It is just that society has outlawed slavery (despite the bible) and christians have realised they need to move with the times and ignore certain sections of the bible. Jesus explicitely told slaves to obey their masters for example.
"It talks about slavery and gives guidelines, but it never endorsed slavery or said it was moral."
laying down rule son how to own other people as property IS endorsing it. The entire bible is used as a moral reference, why are you ignoring this one section? hwere does you decision to ignore it come from? Why heed ANY of it?
@@170221dn Im convinced you have taken the entire slavery in the bible deal out of context. You do realize that the slavery you're referring to is still alive and well in the world today? Not because the Bible gives it a pass but because people are sinful and evil.
@@jelly7310
So in your own words the slavery from the bible was sinful and evil. We agree. Now just stop and think why you haven’t disowned the bible as a moral source.
@@170221dn the slavery in the bible is not the same as the slavery of today. Tell me what you know about the slavery in the Bible. Who were slaves? Why were they slaves? Did they have choice? Did they volenteer? I challenge you to study about the slavery in ancient times before you answer my questions. One more, what do you recommend as a moral guide that is better than the Bible?
Cliff= Michael Jordan 1996/97. Unstoppable.
He ripped that first smart alec girl apart.
The first girl… “what’s the meaning of life doesn’t deserve an answer”. Wow it’s the only real question to ask
Cliffe turned the first girl from a college student into a little baby
Wheres your comment? i don't see it?
+blaby4ever idk
blaby4ever I have no memory of this
@@spartanmucho5950 do you remember now?
"Reasons are irrelevant." *facepalm*
Lol then why stand there and ask that question, that's what I said in my head
Isn't that a reason why reasons are irrelevant lol to blind to see she said a self destructing statement. That's like saying I dont know English
That first woman reminds me of a passenger of a sinking ship that complains that the life rafts are fundamentally flawed because it is still possible to die while in them.
I find it rather amusing how clearly the girl contradicts himself. She says morality is relative and then implies that rational people would find stoning gays immoral, hence others are irrational. Not to mention that she clealy commited "is-ought'" fallacy, didn't it also show that morality is objective because if people, who are rational (in line with Truth) would find x immoral, the we can say that x is immoral, truly.
Much of the "morality is relative" show is just a scam. Many people who adhere to are themselves most adherent pushers of their morality in society. They would call every other names. They say that just to prevent any accountability. So they would ferverently accuse others of immorality over things they dislike and when others do the same to them, they hide behind the statement.
Romans 1:18-23. Be loved
The young lady tried to be convincing, but truth of Cliffe`s answers were piercing her conscience. The tragic truth for the moral relativist is when you hold God’s funeral and bury His moral law along with Him, something will take His place. That something will be an individual or group of individuals who take power and, in authoritarian fashion, impose their own moral framework on everyone else. The world has already seen such things in the regimes of Stalin and Pol Pot. The far better course of action is to thankfully acknowledge God as the true source of good and His objective moral law, which God established only for the well being of His creation.
Too many do not see, with depth, and historically, their beliefs mirror those of evil despots, like the two you listed.
Very nice:)
The world was made through Jesus Christ. Sin has deformed us but Jesus came to transform the body, soul, and the spirit. Since Jesus Christ came to give you eternal life and you decide to ignore him then hell is waiting for you. see www.gotquestions.org
does cliff tell us when and where or what university he will speak at next? i'd like to take my daughter for a sit in if possible, i really look up to him he is a very intelligent speaker :)
Contact the church. I think he normally comes to UT around the Holidays.
Peace
I'm puzzled because of the first girl's arguments. Especially her idea of "arbitrary".
it might indeed not be the best word for it (english is not my first language, so i don't think i have a much better alternative)
i think she tries to refer to the fact that 'god's nature' is what it is, apperently for no reason... perhaps it might have been other, perhaps not...
unless anyone knows why god's nature is what it is?
Because God is existence period. Anything that departs from his nature is evil or wrong. Its not like good and evil are opposites. Evil is the absence of good the same way darkness is the absence of light.Evil is not a thing the same way darkness is not a thing.
j2mfp78 there are many problems in that short text :)
But i understand that you reflect the christian view. You've elsewhere accepted that moral views are relatively depending on the framework onr holds.. So i don't see why you assert this view here as a sort of 'absolute'.
You are defings words and linking them to a concept. Nothing in your cliam is connected to anything 'real and observable'... Nor do you get to 'define what words mean', especially not in such a weird, deeply biased sense.
And if it is true what you stated, it seems these moral laws are indeed arbitrary and don't truly adress 'how we ought to live'.
No I already said I believe somethings are objectivly evil regardless what anyone thinks or there frame work. Also you are right I am describing the God of the Christian bible. Cause thats what i feel is the most in touch with reality everyone is free to choose what they believe about the world we are alll smart enough to decide what seems most reasonable to each there own.
j2mfp78 again, my reference was to 'relativism', not 'subjectivity'.
And yes to each his own....
And at the end of the conversation you have said zero about the topic, which was the arbitrary nature of christian morality.
Why are there no recent videos?
Morality in essence is a set of rules or princibles that we live by. We created these rules over a long period of human history, they are not set in stone. We improve them and fine tune them as we learn how to live. It's much more complicated than that obviously.
You can't say morality is entirely made up and also say you can improve it, because that would assume there was some external standard by which you could tell it was improved or not.
@@davidplummer2619 I don't believe that to be the case david. Mankind is always looking for ways to improve things in all aspects of life. Look at things we invent, the phone, the car, the tv, virtually everything we've invented, we've improved on it, there was no 'external standard' by which we could measure it. Compare the 1st mobile phone, to the latest model, even the best phone around today will be seen as old in 5 years time. If you take morality, what was the moral standard for cyber crime? .. clearly, it didn't exist years ago, or a better example maybe, what is God's moral standard for blasphemy or heresy, what does the Bible say we should do with those people?
God did not “create” morality. What we see as the moral law comes from Gods very own character and nature. It is a reflection of who God is. Lying is not wrong because got created it to be so. Lying is wrong because God, eternally, is not a liar! Lying goes against his nature. Gods eternal, unchanging nature is what gives these laws the quality of being objective. Never changing, rooted into reality itself.
of all the people Cliffe talked to, I have to say she was the most condescending, disrespectful and frustrating one of all.
Amazing how Cliffe turns the bigot arument completely around back at her. And it makes perfect sense.
I guess Cliffe is just another bigoted Christian on her list that has wounded her pride.
the 1st lady acts like she is so enlightened, but she actually doesn't know much of what she was talking about
When there are no arguments then the slander starts. The girl in the beginning of the vid was disrespectful at least. Emotions got the better of her.
these kids love talking about the GENETIC FALACY
They are the products of what the faculty of the campuses they attend whom the majority are either atheists or agnostics teach them.
Pastor Knechtle, Larry Wessels-CAnswersTV, here, and others, are working to get the Gospel out on these mostly pagan campuses. Some used to be very Christian and turned out many Pastors and Theologians.
7:00 who cares in the first place if there is no objective morals it dont matter if you die out
dang It frustrates the way she walks away
it's so typical of someone who lost the debate and doesn't want to learn truth, they just want to blindly follow their own rubbish.
Nathan Ebersole exactly...
what was the last thing the girl said before she walked off? I can't tell what she said.
I have class, I hope someone else challenges you too.
+Citizen Thanks.
It just blows my mind how people have the mindset that, between God and man, man has the authority to play God, not God.
If you build a machine you write a manual that describes how it works best. God does the same via When he came to earth and taught what works best with the machine He's made. In the back of our manuals today lists warnings against misuse the machine. This is what we call sin, the misuse of the machines God made.
Her: "Morality is based on the preservation of the human species".
I don't think she anticipates the question: "Why should the human species be preserved?"
Morality equates to what God "IS", not what He decrees, nor what is outside of Him. That which is good is that which God is
Saying gods character IS one of goodness and good is defined by gods character, is a circular tautology
She is mixing up morality with legislation. I still find it baffling that people still argue that morality is relative. It's indefensible.
Velma has really went down hill
Some questions dont need answers like what's the meaning of life?
Hi Clifford, i tend to agree with you on this, it could well be that there is no ultimate meaning to life, it's up to us a species to get on as best as we can with each other and to make life as good as we can for ourselves and for one another.
Firstly, I don't think clifford was making a statement. He was questioning the questioner's logic which is why clifford used a question mark.
Secondly, the claim that there is no answer to the question "what is the meaning of life" is a cop-out that atheists use because they have no answer.
Nathan Ebersole Hi Nath, so, according to you what is the meaning of life?
bonnie43uk
Good question, but it isn't "according to me". It's according to our creator. The reason we exist is to love God and be loved by God; that is the sole purpose why God created us.
Now that being said, remember that love cannot be forced. If a man forces a woman to love him, it isn't love, it's rape. Likewise, God wants us to love Him and therefore cannot force us to love Him because that wouldn't be real love.
Our life on earth is our time to decide to love Him and therefore be with Him forever or hate Him and therefore be apart from Him forever.
Nathan Ebersole So what if I don't see any credible evidence of God? How can i love a God I can find no evidence for? I also can't hate a God that I can't see any evidence for. I fully understand that you find the evidence credible, but I've not been convinced by it. Hence why i lack belief in your God, or any other God.
Cliff my brother, I know you must know the scriptures that say there is no excuse for not knowing God because He has made Himself known to all men. I'm paraphrasing of course. And right now I don't have the exact scripture. I am coming from NT.
Quantum mechanics allows a lot of leeway for miracles
It sure does...and according QM proponents like Lawrence Krauss you can even get a universe from nothing.
Ahhh ... not nothing. The QM had to be there first. Also there is a physics paper on a universe from nothing* but that nothing has an '*'
* nothing means a quantum vacuum ... which is something
I don’t understand how a being that’s all knowing, that is outside of time, that can see every possible outcome can do anything arbitrary. How can God the all knowing 8:49 do anything arbitrary?
So God the "all knowing" didn't just create Satan "arbitrarily" but created him specifically with the attributes that would lead him to rebel knowing in advance all that would result 🤔 God also didn't just "arbitrarily" create cancer, that causes untold suffering to innocent children but did so intentionally. The same applies with regards to diseases, Viruses, Tsunamis, famine, Earthquakes ect
... *BUT HE LOVES US* 🤔🙄😅🤣
I read the gospel she says. But when I was little. So I don't know what they say? Please ma'am. You are arguing from ignorance.
Cliff. You are so good, so this is not a cut on you, but I feel you had a missed opportunity with the first girl when you said she must of been hurt. That could of been so good to go down that road, she could of opened up.
The second student sounds like he is asking those questions for extra credit or for a class project. Lol
He has almost no interest in the actual answers.
Who is jesus and what does 1 Timothy 3:16 said
The girl basically didn't get her way. Sadly, her attire and hairstyle gave away how she was going to act before she spoke...
Should not judge by that.
I really don't think we should be taking advice, from a Christian, on the topic of morality.
You can tell the kids questions are always intended to defame God along with the bible. If there was only one witness, they ask, "why did the all powerful, all knowing God only one witness and not multiple witnesses, wouldn't he have shown everyone so that there would be no doubt?"
Then, when there are multiple witnesses, they ask, "why did an all powerful, all knowing God give multiple witnesses, couldn't he get it right with one?" 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Aye aye aye, cliff has some real patience because they always say the same thing and can't seem to actually listen. God bless him 🙏
14:00 evolutionism has never been documented in modern times either
Sadly, this is a poor handling of the euthyphro dilemma. Cliffs tried to turn it around to her moral subjectivity, which is valid, but escapes having to answer the euthyphro dilemma, which really isn't a dilemma.
Euthyphro is dead.
love Cliff and what he does but I think hes wrong when he says that the OT Prophets did not know about Christ or His coming. They most certainly did know ...
Yes Jim, they did on a level we do not, but the cross, the TEN Commandments COMMANDMENTS, and many other places in OT shows or shadiws Christ.
God went from eating pork being sin to go ahead and eat pork. It's cleansed by prayer. Pork went from being an abomination to clean but wait there's more! When he returns to judge the world he's going to judge those who sanctify themselves eating pork! Don't you just love the objective standards of God?
You have to go back and read
@renebenton77 really empty comment. You must be a scholar....
I'd suggest doing research on moral, civil, and ceremonious laws. I think those might challenge your thinking a bit.
God doesn't look to a standard of morality otherwise that would be God and not Him. So by logic God must be the standard of morality by which things are judged since He made things good, as said in Creation, and He told them whatever is outside His righteous character is therefore evil. You can't explain morality outside an absolute moral standard. It's not arbitrary, it's absolute because since God is the standard it is unchanging, hence keeping in line with His character. People challenge morality by acting outside the character of God, and we see in humans how that gives detrimental effects such as natural guilt, stress, sadness, and frustration after such acts outside the standard of good. If morality is relative toward the help and usefulness of society then we can conclude that slavery is helpful for free labor and quicker consumer products. If I need a kidney, then I could reason that capturing someone and stealing their kidney benefits me or even someone else, even if it brought harm to others. You could reason the extermination of the Jews in Nazi Germany was justified by the fact that Hitler wished for a master race for his people. Thus he reasoned that getting rid of Jews and other people. That would, in theory, help the society become better. Other countries could reason then to have a government run gang that kidnaps and sells girls as sex slaves to bring more money into the country. It would help the overall society, right? With moral relativity, our society would collapse in violence and injustice. Those who would even dare standing up to it will be asked, "Well that's your opinion on morality, but morality to me is relative so my opinion is just as good as yours. So then, how can you tell me what I do is wrong?" Therefore, since it is built in every human being, this is also said in the Bible, to understand the standard of good in their hearts and naturally think that things such as stealing, rape, and murder are wrong and should justly be punished, then the standard must be an absolute standard that could not have been conjured by natural processes that they claim are random and by chance. The only explanation is then God.
1." ... So by logic God must be the standard of morality..."
you mean 'by definition', because you defined god to be like this. which makes it a concept you hold, not a necessary existing thing.
2. "It's not arbitrary, it's absolute because since God is the standard it is unchanging, hence keeping in line with His character."
There is no logical 'beacuse' in that sentence... the two attributes of the (proposed) devine morality (cfr: arbitrary and absolute) are not logically contradictory... saying something about the absolute nature (you think it has) implies nothing about whether it is arbitrary. Logic doesn't work that way.
3. What you do write seems to actually implie it is arbritrary, at least in the sense that god did not 'chose his moral nature for a reason', and it is therefor purposeless and undirected as a principle
4. godwin law
"you mean 'by definition', because you defined god to be like this. which makes it a concept you hold, not a necessary existing thing." No because if God were to look to anything else other than Him than that would be God. I don't define God to be like this. His nature is seen everywhere and His qualities are shown clearly, people just deny the evidence.
"There is no logical 'beacuse' in that sentence... the two attributes of the (proposed) devine morality (cfr: arbitrary and absolute) are not logically contradictory... saying something about the absolute nature (you think it has) implies nothing about whether it is arbitrary. Logic doesn't work that way." You said yourself that my statement was "not logically contradictory" I am not defining any nature of God that does not already exist and is clearly explained through His Word. I then reason upon that how morality cannot come from any other process or law of nature other than a God. That is logic.
" What you do write seems to actually implie it is arbritrary, at least in the sense that god did not 'chose his moral nature for a reason', and it is therefor purposeless and undirected as a principle" It does not imply at all that moral law is arbitrary. I am explaining how relativism reasoning will lead down to those other things that naturally are wrong to people.
"godwin law" I see no logical point or rebuttal in you bringing up this statement about how more people will use Nazi analogies. Mine makes sense doesn't it? It applies to this moral relativism that they used and that could be used again. The only reason people think that what they did was at all wrong is because there is an absolute moral standard put into man that is not naturally prevalent in nature and cannot evolve by some process of "evolution", therfore it must have come there by supernatural means since nature cannot give us things such as: self consciousness, language, thought, reasoning, and morality. Hence God.
She says all religious people are indoctrinated but she doesnt realize shes indoctrinated
God doesn't' "decide" what is Good. God does not "decree" something and then poof it becomes good, God decrees something because HE is good. Something is good because it conforms to God's nature. A human cannot become not a human. God cannot become not Good, that is a contradiction. Morals flow from his goodness, not from his arbitrary decisions.
The basis of morality is at its roots the concern for the well being of oneself and others. The same can be said of health and safety. Nobody claims that there must be a God for one to have a concern for the health and safety of oneself and others. Such a concern could simply come from conscious beings coming to the realization that it is in their collective best interests to be concerned with such matters for the sake of their own survival and well being. Same could be said of morality. Nothing to see here.
Agreed.
But God "does" hold us responsible for what we do not hear about or what we do not know. That is the whole idea of original sin.
Saying God's moral decrees are necessarily arbitrary is a nonsequitur. The Euthyphro Dilemma applied to God is nonsense.
It's interesting how people will venerate a standard or source of goodness that is inanimate, like Plato's form of the good or "the universe sending you a message" but the moment that source becomes a living entity, they dismiss it as "arbitrary".
(I suspect that it's because they want a source that can't talk so they can feel free to ignore it when they want to do something shady.)
I submit that it is impossible for the source of transcendent morality to be anything BUT a living entity because goodness requires intent and inanimate things can't form intent. Therefore anything we think of as good that has only some inanimate source is not actually good but just dumb luck.
🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" God subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ??
If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept 👍
The claim that theistic morality is somehow "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@@trumpbellend6717
Don't try to make it about me, Mr. Divide And Conquer. I didn't "determine" anything or set myself up as THE aribiter of such things. These ideas about God were around long before me and will be long after me. The question is whether are they accurate or not, which has to be decided on grounds independent of what I or you or anyone else arbitrarily "determines".
I say they are accurate, you say no. Do you want to get into all that (I am willing) or are you just here for another drive-by?
So my means of determining the "right" God are necessarily arbitrary because all supernatural beliefs run together like so much fingerpaint to you because you can't be bothered to put in the work of sorting them out? By this logic, there can be no real $20 bill because there are so many counterfeits out there.
If there is no God to ground morality in, then WHAT DO YOU ground it in? Feelings? Popular vote? Sociocultural relativism and drift? Molecules?
@@davidplummer2473
Lol let's assume there is a god, and let's even assume he grounds morality. That still doesn't change the fact that your opinion as to the "correct" one is no less subjective or no more valid than any of the opinions of followers of the thousands of other different conflicting and subjective gods dear. 🤫🤭
@@davidplummer2473
For me and like minded people he moral grounding for morality is based upon our desired goal of wellbeing, and the values it incorporates like empathy, respect, equality altruism, reciprocity. We try to actualize a healthy flourishing coperative society based upon said values that is why one "ought" to treat another's as you would like to be treated, this is our "reference point" or standard. For example..... One "ought not steal if you wish to live in a society were property is not stolen. One "ought" not murder if you wish to live in a society were people are not murdered.
One "should" or "ought" do something if Its conducive with the actualisation of a situation that conforms with one's values. These "values" themselves are subjective by definition however it is entirely possible to make Objective declarations or decisions 'Within a framework of subjective values.
Now these values may not matter to YOU but they certainly do to those that share said "values" and that's all that's required to influence how they live their lives and this has "real" consequences in the "real" world irespective of your personal perception of how your specific subjective invisible friend feels about it.
*Tell me dear why OUGHT one do what your God wants* ???
@@davidplummer2473
If YOU want to claim your particular god as the objective reference point for morality. You first have to demonstrate *objectively* that YOUR particular god EXISTS and is infact THE ONLY TRUE GOD, and *not merely the only true god in your subjective opinion*
That he is "MORAL" ( what standard did you use to judge this ? )
Are all the other gods and denominations other than yours false and yours true If so prove it . otherwise you offer nothing but a *subjective opinion on morality*
*CAN YOU DO THIS YES OR NO* ??
Please note if you are unwilling or unable to answer this basic question, then at least have the honesty to recognise the hypocrisy of your position.
Why go after the lady the way you did? Is this evangelism, debate, or a showdown?
Problem with the girl's argument is that she lacks the proper understanding of the Character of an OMNISCIENT, OMNIPRESNET, and OMIPOTENT GOD.
God's laws and commands aren't "arbitrary" because He isn't a mere mortal with a meager understanding of justice and goodness to begin with. People like these act as if God is some random dude in the sky with the average human's reasoning and logic. You can't put God in a box of your own limited understanding of what it is to be GOD. He is GOD.
Let's structure this in the form of a logical syllogism with premises and a conclusion, then you can indicate which specific premises you disagree with that would invalidate the derived conclusion ........
*Premise one*
The Christian God is said to be morally perfect, loving, omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent.
*Premise two*
Belief in this specific god is required to prevent an eternal torment and attain salvation.
*Premises three*
The Christian God wants all to know of his existence and thus be saved.
*Premise four*
The Christian God would have both the ability and desire to demonstrate his existence to all.
*Premise five*
Almost three quarters of the world population do not think the Christian God exists.
*Conclusion*
The Christian God as described does *NOT* exist
Does Cliffe understand what an assertion is? That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. How do you know God's character and whether he can go against it or change it. All you know about the person you worship is contained in some 2000-year-old copies of copies of copies and translations. With all there is to life why waste your life living for a book about people you don't know? Im black and I was indoctrinated from childhood with the same Christian doctrine that Cliffe espouses.
This lady doesn't know what arbitrary means.
That is postmodernism worldview. Everything is relative.
Nope...GOD IS MORALITY..GOD IS LOVE..GODS CHARACTER IS MORALITY..
If it is the word of god, then read exodus 21 on slavery. This is just a small example of the morbid morality teachings of the bible. The great flood is also a great example of god his all forgiveness. If Jesus is god than the dying on the cross and resurrection story becomes a meaningless bedtime story. He just took a nap for three days. Never could make any sense of dying for our sins because he simply did NOT die!!
But the greatest fallacies he proclaims are denoting the gospels "eye witness accounts" . This means that he knows really nothing about the history of the bible. Main stream historian scholars have debunked this claim and I urge all theist to investigate this for themselves. Get down and dig for the facts and stay away from biased influencers. Be free and live prosperous 😃
re miracles documented go to Emanuel TV TH-cam
Such a liberal I know it all
She spews dogma much more vehemently than a supposed "bible beater". Very intolerant is she.
Is slavery moral?
170221dn No.
@@ryanmiller6266
Glad we agree. So we both reject that morality in the bible.
feminism at its finest
blah blah blah atheist blah blah blah
Sorry the young man has no clue what he speaks of concerning morality because without a God it’s all relative sea cliffs arguments for that dismantling
"Good" and "Bad" are words used to describe movement or points on a reference standard or scale conceptualised by man that is based upon our shared goal with regards wellbeing and the values it incorporates like empathy altruism reciprocity equality, respect ect
Whether an action is "Good" is entirely *"relative"* to the desired objective / goal one is trying to achieve, the specific situation our levels of information and understanding and the range of posible alternative actions and outcomes available. Whilst "God" is also a man made concept, the percieved whims of your "God" do not reflect these shared values and thus are irrelevant in any discussion of morality.
Would you disagree ? What outcome do YOU think we are striving for when we use the the terms "good" or "bad" if not human wellbeing ?
@@trumpbellend6717 It’s real simply……it takes a mind & a conscious to understand Morality
No mind or conscious other than Man’s, Man is the authority when it comes to Morality, meaning it’s relative
Sorry, but that doesn’t square with reality…..
rape
sexism
racism
child abuse
murder
These actions are never relatively evil, they are always ABSOLUTELY evil….
Only way that can be true, a mind & conscious before Man’s mind & conscious ….a moral giver, who gives us a plumb line to measure morality by
BTW-take my list & see if you can honestly say, these actions can be good….i don’t believe you can honestly say that
@@bigtxsdude
// "It takes a mind and a conciousness to understand morality" //
Agreed and mankind possess both. Morality is the cognitive process of differentiating between human intentions, decisions, and actions that are appropriate from those inappropriate. The recognition and evaluation of the consequences our choices have with regards to ourselves and others. My NOT believing in a mythological god in no way impedes the ability of forming such moral assessments.
We are self aware conscious pain and emotion feeling individuals capable of love or hate, incredible acts of altruism or depravity. It's how we navigate through life and these potential extremes that define us, not our belief ( or lack of ) in anyone's specific subjective invisible "God"
A "mind" is a word used to describe the emergent property facilitated by the electro chemical interactions of billions of neurons in a physical brain. We have zero examples of a mind that was not ultimately the result of a physical brain dear.
@@bigtxsdude
// "a moral giver" //
🤔 Hmm is your "opinion" with regards the "right" moral law giver subjective or objective?? Can we ground morality in "any" God or just the particular one YOU determined is the "right" one out of the many thousands man has invented ??
If your answer is the latter then in actuality its *YOU* and YOUR SUBJECTIVE OPINION that is determining morality dear. if your answer is the former, then asserting objectivity to any moral claim based upon a "God" becomes a completely vacuous useless concept 👍
The claim that theistic morality is somehow "objective" is ridiculous. Theists are merely substituting their own subjective moral standards with the morals standards of the god they subjectively determine represents the "correct objective" morality. 🙄🤔
@@trumpbellend6717 i’ll just address this 1
“capable of love” you say
1-what is your definition of love ??
It was hilarious watching that first chic. The hypocrite try and wriggle around his questions.