Getting Started - Shaking vs Stirring
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 9 ก.ค. 2024
- Why do you shake some cocktails, but stir others? In this video, I discuss the science of ice and dilution, and how that determines whether to shake or stir.
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I don't drink but these videos are relaxing
A well made drink is very relaxing as well!
What I thought was to be my least favorite of your videos turned out to be one of my favorites! I am a teacher, and so I want to compliment how great a job you did executing this video. That was master-level instruction on this master-level bartending skill. I have to assume you have taught before. If not, you should be teaching! Many thanks, really enjoyed that little gem! :-)
I've got to say this is my favorite way to learn about cocktails and mixing drinks.
Amazing video.
Also diluting without chilling might be achived by using stones. Stones won't melt but they're less effective than ice.
Thanks for you videos! Very nice and patient approach!
Gotta say: this is probably your best video yet. Keep up the good work!
Cheers
Bro tell me how you just changed my whole world in a few minutes
Great tips and tricks on this channel, along with awesome recipes. Keep up the great content!
"there is no dilution without chilling" pour some boiling water I to your cocktail. BOOM dilution without chilling
kek n1
Well, technically the ice in the cocktail would cool the boiling water a bit ;)
Well technically you would then be cooling (chilling) the boiling water to something more tolerable.
Theres no cooling without dilution
Put the cocktail in the fridge.
Bam
When did this turn into an episode of Mythbusters?
Always fantastic videos, thanks for sharing your bartending prowess with us
I loved this playlist and i took notes Awesome Channel!Love it
Did he just tell me how to hold a spoon
Kokujins I know. Bossy, non-physics-knowing, fucking bartender.
yes.
@@TheOsfania lol
Finally a recipe i can afford.
This is awesome. Thank you!
Yo Nick! Finally you have heard me, the tablecloth is finally ironed. Satisfaction level over 9000. Also, congratulations on moving to your new place.
Thanks :)
Nice!!! I just got inspired to make a cocktail right now...CHEERS!!!!!
thank you, the video is in fact really helpful, appreciate it
What about using pre-chilled glasses? I'm not trying to be a smartass, just curious if you think it's worth the effort, since it's not effective enough to entirely substitute for ice.
I typically pre-chill glasses for spirit-forward cocktails, as it will help maintain the cold temperature of the cocktail
I like keeping a couple of cocktail(martini) glasses in the freezer. The drinks served up are nice to keep cold a little longer, I feel.
Joshua Pearce or in the case of some alcohols that you keep in the bottom of your deep freeze. personally I keep a bottle of limoncello in mine, and a friend of mine likes to torture people with a bottle of fireball. chilled yet not diluted. that's like the whole reason not to add ice to a glass of beer.
Cocktail Chemistry you're a pedantic bitch without a fucking clue.
Khazon93 is that how you feel?
Great video!
Btw, does soapstone or any other chilling material that does not melt have a place in your/the "cocktail philosophy" (in lack of a better word)? Or is it just ice or nothing?
Whenever I shake it always gets stuck, I learn something new. Thank you for sharing.
That was informative, thank you sir
The mystery is finally solved!
Thank you!
All clear ingredients - stir
Any cloudy or opaque ingredients (citrus or creams) - shake
Nicely presented! I'd say the only thing missing is that shaking will also emulsify a cocktail, whether that means incorporating egg white, cream, sugar or other ingredients whereas stirring will not. Rule of thumb: If you expect the resulting drink to be clear, stir it; if you expect it to be opaque, shake it.
2:09 does that mean Bond drinks his martini's like that because he's a lightweight or something?
Nah, it’s because he’s got a mission to finish
It might be spy code.
What about using whiskey stones? not for mixing drinks but for keeping whiskey cold
Thanks!
Have you ever used the whiskey stones for chilling?
what about those cooling stone or frozen grape would those be a good alternative
Quick question: I think for Whiskeys, there are those Metal / Stone cubes that can be used to cool a drink without dilutung it (except for condensing water, that is). And on the other hand, you could throw in some water at the drink's temperature to dilute it without cooling it. Is that just "not how it's done"?
They do it with club soda in highballs all the time.
Could somebody help me, I was trying to make a cosmopolitan the other day but it just tasted awful like it didn’t feel balanced what am I doing wrong is it the shaking?
I use Whisky Stones when drinking, whisky. Would I be better off not using them when stirring a cocktail?
ever helpful
A bit late wrt the posting of the video, are there any rules about how much a cocktail is normally diluted by shaking/stirring? Is it a fixed amount per time, or dependent on the cocktail parameters (like how much liquid is in the cocktail for instance)?
Nice and informative, thanks. But I think you're calling out James Bond on that martini prep. :)-
- Eddy
Your show is a Martini, no matter shaken or stirred!
question: why firstly pour the liquid and then put the ice in when stirring? if you put the ice first nothing splashes or anything
Hi I wounder why drinks with baileys sometimes break? Especially mixed with cointreau or coffee, any tips why it does break and how to prevent them from breaking?
Science link please. Honestly loved your video
there is no dilution without chilling? What if you added water that was the same temperature as the drink you were making? You have the same temperature but be more diluted wouldn't it
Also both the ice and the water can be catalists, changing or enhancing some flavours
There thermodynamics involved. With the ingredients as well as the stir. someone asked about chilling the glass.
So is shaking v stirring like spitting or swallowing.
What are your thoughts on bartending school, pros and cons?
You can probably make a video on that topic
Heyo. I have a question regarding stirring/shaking juices or acid from lemons/limes.
As far as I know, the reason you're shaking drinks with acidity is to create the air bubbles from shaking, and the air bubbles take some sharpness of the acidity away which creates a more balanced drink. Is this the reason you're shaking juices as well? Or is it a tradeoff between temperature/dilution in the regard that lemon, lime and juices taste better at lower temperatures (can't be, right)?
Also, why can't you stir these? I know some recipes call for it, and I myself created a stirred drink with lemon juice, stirring because I wanted the lemon to keep its sharpness. Shaking it would, if what I believe to be correct is correct, make the drink more mellow and actually ruin it rather than make it better.
So basically, am I on the right track? If not, when would you stir acidity/juices and break the rule of "always shake"?
Can dry-ice (frozen CO2) be used to cool drinks?
I imagine it will also carbonate it?
Was the "law of dilution/two sides of the same coin" quote from cookingissues.com? ;P
James Bond: Vodka Martini, shaken, not stirred.
Bartender: No no no, mr. Bond, shaking would over-dilute and over-cool the drink, and also ruin it's texture.
Bond: 😐
"there is no chilling without dilution"
Unless you use chilled stones...
(yes that's where the expression "on the rocks" got its name!)
What about the vodka martini?!?
You can use dry ice or stones
Now I know what Bond meant
Using super cold ice would mean less dilution and more chilling, also chilled glasses or stones should work too no?
Chilled glasses or stones will help maintain temp without diluting yes, the "fundamental law" I mentioned was specific to ice. Regarding super cold ice, that actually doesn't have an effect (see my other response on this in the comments)
Really nice video, but I feel like one parameter was left out of the calculation: What about the temperature of the ice?
This is one of those areas that might seem counter-intuitive, but ice temp actually doesn't have a meaningful effect on the process at all. Largely this is due to the fact that once you pull it from the freezer, ice will reach 0° very quickly, likely before you begin the mixing process. This is because ice is a great conductor of heat, so it doesn't take a lot of energy to heat it.
I notice you say you stir your drinks for 45 seconds. That seems like so long. Is that the proper amount of time?
Generally you stir until you feel the chill on the outside of the mixing glass. Because it's not metal it CAN take up to those kind of times as it doesn't conduct heat as well as the metal shaker tin. Ultimately it depends on the ice cubes you use.
You can cut this time down by using smaller bits of ice, which will cool and dilute faster. There's a nuance here though, small ice that's already been crushed will actually hold a non-trivial amount of water on the surface, so introducing that into the mixing glass will add some dilution without cooling. This is why you often see bartenders take a large cube of ice and crack it with the back of the bar spoon into the glass, yielding smaller ice with no surface water, and thus shorter stirring time.
While that technique works for a bar, it can get a bit messy in a home bar, so I prefer to just stir the 45 seconds with medium sized ice.
Why do you prefer the Boston shaker over the Cobbler shaker?
I like to see my cocktail as I measure it into the glass, they're easier to clean and re-use, you get a quicker strain, and they're just more fun IMO
I asked becasue I have been watching a few Japanese bartenders on youtube, like Hidetsugu Ueno, Kazuo Ueda and Hiroyasu Kayama. They all seem to prefere the Cobbler style over the Boston style, and I'm not entirely sure why?
I've done some light amateur bartending and have always found the Boston shaker to be easier to both shake and take apart. But I'm wondering if there is more to it than that`?
My guess as to why they use the Cobbler shaker lies both in Japanese culture and in the fact that shaking with a Cobbler shaker produces a different texture.
In Japanese bartending they have a variety of different shaking styles for different drinks and different liquors/liqueurs (two-hit, three-hit and a whole lot of others I haven't really memorized) that all produce different textures. They're able to hold the shaker in the way that works better for these techniques as well as the fact that these techniques, as far as I know, are designed specifically for moving the liquid through the Cobbler shaker in specific ways.
(And don't even get me started on the Japanese ice-nerdiness)
Well, what about non water ice cubes? like whisky rocks
Whiskey rocks will certainly cool without diluting, but they aren't ice :)
don't use whiskey rocks. your cocktails need water
Leonar, you can always add water. It's much harder to remove.
Is there a good reason to not use whiskey rocks or similar cooling methods?
If you think of the dilution of ice to water as part of the drink then using whiskey rocks is making a different drink than the recipe. As with everything though it is personal preference. Not really a right vs wrong when you are a home bartender. Do you like diluted drinks? Do you prefer no water in your drink? Choice is yours
it'd be better if you could measure the ice dilution amount when the whole drinks just reaches the temp. equilibrium for both method.
I have a question about "there is no chilling without dilution"
How about using some inox "ice"
Like those cubes that you can reuse
How can they work in a cocktail?
Btw I just found out your channel and I'm bing watching your videos and I absolutely love them
That phrase was meant to refer to chilling with ice ;)
@@CocktailChemistry so potentially i can chill with inox cubes instead of ice?
So...James Bond has been doing it wrong this whole time?
I understand you want to dillute while cooling because it's required indrinks..but there's many ways to dillute or cool without doing the other..
I think he was specifically talking about ice. Obviously if your vodka is in the freezer it'll be cool without dillution, and adding room temp water will dillute without cooling.
Maybe this makes me a heathen, but I like the little ice shards in my gin martini
I guess ice isnt only for cooling the cocktail, sometimes warming up?
Did I miss something or when does he discuss the actual "chemistry"?
I watch this channel's videos. and I don't even drink alcohol.
🙇♀️
The statement that big chunks of ice does not cool as much is not necessarily true. Ice melts at 0C, so if you have ice at a lower temp it will transfer absorb energy/temperature from the drink to maintain equilibrium without melting until it reaches 0C. Crushed ice got more surface of contact so it chills a drink faster. Regardless of sort of ice, your drink will be at 0C as coolest
Sorry for replying to a 3 year old comment, but this is such a "high school chemistry" level response I just can't. There are so many factors at play in cooling a liquid. You're right that surface area matters and that's the key here. One giant ice cube has a much lower surface area, this means the q is much smaller than with crushed ice. So there is a maximum rate of heat transfer there. If we assume one giant ice cube, let's say 2 inches on every side, and only about half of that cube is submerged in the liquid, we get a surface area of 0.00774 square meters. Using a convective heat transfer equation of q=hA(dT), h for free convection of liquid is around 100 and we'll use the surface area of cube touching the liquid I said above. Now just for demonstration purposes, I'm gonna put the temp of the drink at this particular moment in time to be around 10C. So dT is 10C with an ice temp of 0C. So all that means the heat transfer from the drink to the ice cube is about 7.44W. But we still need to consider the walls of the glass, so assuming maybe like 1/8 of an inch thick glass you use the equation q = (k/s)A(dT), where k is thermal conductivity, s is material thickness and A is surface area. Let's say the drink covers like 2 inches of the bottom of the glass. That makes the surface area roughly 0.0131 sq meters for the glass. Plugging in a k of 0.8w/mK we get about 36.3W of energy from the air through the glass, to the drink. Meaning the air is heating the drink faster than the cube can cool it at this point in time. And when you add in somebody holding that drink with their hand, which is hotter than the air, you get even more heat transfer.
@@andrewtominack3730 Thank you for your detailed answer! I obviously made a mistake in assuming that the liquid temperature would be 0C regardless of how big the ice is. I figured out that I was wrong sometime between now and when I made the original comment, but I never figured it out. Thank you for taking your time to answer :)
nice cantaloupe island intro
I prefer the texture of a shaken martini more but I like them both james bond has No pull with me
My name is James Bond and I approve this message.
So... James Bond likes his Martinis watery?
Bond sent me here
You did not discuss the importance of ice temperature. And this is critical.
Ice at -1C will chill a lot less and melt/dilute a lot more than ice at -30C.
The colder the ice, the more chill and less dilution you get.
And the effect is very significant.
Can you share an experiment that indicates ice temp is critical and significant? Dave Arnold has done the most thorough testing on this topic I've seen, and states "Even if your ice is below 0°C, it won’t chill a drink that much better than ice at 0°C" due to a variety of factors. www.cookingissues.com/2010/09/02/cocktail-science-in-general-part-1-of-2/
Thanks for the reply. I think it goes down to specific heat. 1 for water, 1/2 for ice.
Let's say I have 100g of liquid at 25C and 200g of ice at -25C, and we want to cool the drink to 10C. That will require 100*(25-10) = 1500J heat transfer. Taking the same amount of heat from the ice will bring it up from -25C to -10C (same difference in temperature, twice the mass to compensate for half the heat capacity). So we would cool the drink without diluting it at all.
Sure, you can achieve the same by melting 1500/80 = 19g of ice at 0C (and it is probably easier) - but you can certainly cool without dilution. You just need enough ice that is cold enough.
Alternatively, certain spirits, such as gin, and most juices can be kept cold at all times (in an ice-bath) - so the need for cooling the liquids is much reduced. Down side: a martini cocktail which has not been diluted during preparation is too strong for most people.
Side note: For informal home use, I find frozen grapes act great as edible, fun, non-melting ice-cubes substitutes.
Yep, I will certainly concede that you can cool a drink without dilution using a variety of methods. For this "fundamental law of cocktails", I'm referring to the use of ice at approximately freezing temperature. Most cocktail recipes account for a certain level of dilution and cooling, and so dilution should certainly not be seen as an undesirable outcome for cocktail prep.
I completely agree. Even in a classic Martini, dilution is critical.
@@shaimach I know this is a 3 year old comment, but you have a pretty large misunderstanding of the mechanisms behind heat transfer, and you even screwed up the calculations for energy requirements. First off, the specific heat of water is around 4.13 j/g , not 1, so the energy loss required to lower 100g by 15C is actually closer to 6000J, not 1500. Second, you're assuming that the whole entire mass of ice changes temperature at the exact same rate, which is false. All of the heat transfer is occurring directly on the surface of the ice, meaning there is a very small mass of ice receiving direct heat transfer and the temperature rises VERY fast the instant it is introduced to liquid. With convective heat transfer, you have the equation q = hA(T1-T2). So with a VERY CONSERVATIVE (should probably be much higher to account for shaking) convective heat transfer coefficient of around 500 W/m^2 K, and a 1 inch cube of ice and the dT of 50K, that comes to 96.75 W (J/s). And again, that is occurring DIRECTLY on the surface of the ice, meaning a very thin layer of ice, meaning the mass is incredibly small. Even if we're generous and say it affects the first .1 cm (that's probably more than the liquid actually affects directly), you're still only getting about 3.5g of ice/cube. Meaning that within ONE SECOND, you have already raised the temperature of that outer layer of ice by 14C. And again, that's being incredibly generous and modeling the outer layer of ice as 1mm thick, but in reality the thickness of that outer layer is infinitesimal, meaning you're melting at least SOME of the ice almost instantaneously upon introducing it to liquid. So yeah, you're gonna get dilution almost instantly with any ice that a normal person has access to.
dry ice
Bond...James Bond
shaken not stirred
I'll take a rum and coke, shaken please
Shake but not in a suggestive manner
Put some cold rocks in it
Freddy Freeloader?
"Do I look like I give a damn?"
You absolutely CAN chill without diluting, (1. pre-chilling alcohols in the fridge or freezer, 2. CO2, 3. Liquid Nitrogen. 4. actual frozen food safe rocks like granite), and you can easily dilute without chilling by using room temperature or blood warm water to dilute without chilling.
I DO agree that understanding the importance or temperature and dilution is critical to elevating your bartending game!
Yes, the statement regarding no chilling without dilution refers to the use of ice at a freezing temperature for shaking or stirring a cocktail. You can, of course, chill liquid without diluting.
"I have no life and I'm super early" squad where you at?
His videos have style, character and are not for little 12-year-olds. These people here don't act like your typical youtube crowd and I like that :)
Ryan Hayes yes I like his videos they are unique they are not simple recipes for drinks he is amazing
Actually, dilution only happens when the ice is at 0°C (Celsius). If the ice is frozen at -14°C (typical freezer temperature), it will chill the drink before melting.
So, you can technically chill a drink with no dilution just by using more ice, and shorten the time it is into contact with the drink.
The ice from the freezer will actually approach 0 degrees very quickly, such that the effect you describe is negligible. The ice actually won't chill the cocktail much until it starts melting either (which may seem counter intuitive). If you'd like to read more: www.cookingissues.com/2010/09/02/cocktail-science-in-general-part-1-of-2/
How's your liver ?
scott xmas He's a drink artist, not an alcoholic.
just put it on dry ice
3:21 *Fundamental law of coctails (wrong)*:
Chilling (minus dilution): You can freeze solid (non reactive) objects and use them for cooling.
Dilution (minus chilling): just pour in some warm tap water or whatever you want ;P
Sion
Ok have fun freezing solid objects for cooling your cocktail and diluting it with tap water afterwards since cocktail recipes account for dilution. Or just add ice as it does both in one step, your choice ;)
So wait a minute, you said that martinis need to be stirred. Does that mean James Bond ordered it wrong the whole time? By far the most iconic cocktail in cinema is idiotic?
Ian Fleming's Bond is meant to be a satirical caricature of spywork. It is meant to be a bit of subtle humor. Here is this badass, completely over the top, uber manly man of a man who can't take his liquor.
Problem is, it is a bit too sutble.
That’s interesting how bartenders can make this sound like it’s something that is really important and requires some skills
Wait..... can’t you just surround the cup with ice on the outside 🤔 then the cup would get cold and then the coldness would be transferred from the cup to the drink without any water from melted ice getting in the drink
This might be the 3 weed brownies I ate about an hour ago speaking, but I think I might have just solved terrorism.....
Refrigerators, good sir. Refrigerators.
Your mouth is making sounds . Take a sip of water
"When it comes to shaking, the type of ice doesn't matter that much" ...... Are you joking? I encourage anybody who believes this to shake two cocktails, one with small well ice and one with a single big rock and compare.
Assuming your small ice isn't wet, it won't matter as much as you think. The challenge is keeping it cold and dry. 1 large cube isn't enough ice.
@@CocktailChemistry sasha petraske would argue differently, were he still alive. As would dave arnold... Not trying to bust your balls but you're wrong on this one
@@harrisonsnow6840 a lot of the data and research for this video was from Dave ;) He's since started combining a large ice cube with cracked ice to get better texture with the dilution. A quote from Dave's controlled experiments: "If you shake for around 12-15 seconds (though shaking longer won’t hurt), and if you aren’t too lethargic, neither the type of ice you use nor your shaking style will appreciably affect the temperature or dilution of your drink"
@@CocktailChemistry so there are several issues here... You're misinterpreting dave first of all. The use of a second cracked cube is not due to a "need" for more ice. The cracked cube is providing enough dilution in 10-15 seconds of shaking a cocktail that you would otherwise need to shake for 30+seconds with dense, big ice. And second of all, there's no doubt whatsoever that you can achieve proper dilution and temperature by shaking with small ice chips, but what you'll be missing is a fully emulsified, aerated cocktail, which is why dave uses a big cube in the first place, and not two cracked cubes. You cannot achieve proper texture in 10-15 seconds of shaking with inferior ice which is why nearly every cocktail bar worth its salt uses large kold draft ice cubes to shake their cocktails. with dry, small ice chips you can achieve a decent result, sure, but you'll have to choose between perfect dilution or perfect aeration and you'll never quite get both.
@@harrisonsnow6840 Yes understood. In the video I should have specified that when it comes to achieving the proper dilution, the type of ice doesn't matter as much
This guy says always shake a cocktail whenever citrus is involved. Probably don’t want to shake a gin & tonic or any drink with club soda or you’ll be wearing it. Two thumbs down.
This commenter is saying what we are all thinking! Next time I drink a Blue Moon with an orange…I’ll give it a vigorous shake. No thanks! This video started saucy enough…but it quickly evolved into a parrot’s ass - colorful but full of poo!
Thanks for the post. Very well explained. Delusion or Dissolve 🫠