Shaking vs stirring a cocktail
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 11 ส.ค. 2022
- Dave Arnold, the author of Liquid Intelligence (amzn.to/3QhTxOQ), has a Fundamental Law of Traditional Cocktails which states: "There is no chilling without dilution, and there is no dilution without chilling."
Chilling and dilution are directly related. In fact, if you make two Manhattans with different sized ice, that are stirred for different lengths of time and stirred at different speeds, they will be identical once served if stirring was stopped once they hit the same temperature (meaning that they also have the same amount of dilution).
Ice melts at its surface area. Therefore, increasing the surface area will increase the rate at which ice can melt. Increasing the rate at which it melts also increases the rate at which it chills.
Stirring or shaking a cocktail increases contact with both the liquid and ice, therefore chilling (and diluting) faster. The faster the drink moves, the faster the drink can chill.
A shaken cocktail will reach equilibrium once shaken for 15 seconds - meaning that it will have minimal further effect on both chilling and the dilution of a drink.
In regards to chilling and dilution, stirring is inefficient and it will take around two minutes to reach the same or a similar temperature (and dilution) as shaking.
No one stirs a cocktail for two minutes. So, by shaking a cocktail for 10-15 seconds it will over dilute your drink.
My point is. Don't shake a Manhattan ;)
Dave Arnold's Liquid Intelligence is a must have on your book shelf: amzn.to/3QhTxOQ - แนวปฏิบัติและการใช้ชีวิต
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Check out Dave Arnold's Liquid Intelligence: amzn.to/3QhTxOQ ....speaking of books, I wrote one! bit.ly/STB-cocktail-guide
So good to have you back my man. The undisputed GOAT of mixology youtubers.
Thanks mate 🙏
This was great! I now want to try a stirred and shaken Daiquiri side by side to see what happens to citrus when stirred.
it tastes tarter
Make a caipirinha
I'm loving these experiments you've been doing, great video!
Thank you! Glad you like them!
This is just great. It almost cant be pretentious, when there´s such a big difference between the two. Anyway - Thanks a bunch Mr. The Bartender!
The dilution rate between shaken vs stirred is actually the least of the problems. As Chef Jean Pierre loves to say, "Texture is the conductor of Flavor". As you point out, When you shake a cocktail you aerate it. This changes the texture and thus the flavor, or at least how we perceive it.Double straining won't make this any better. A Manhattan is not meant to be aerated. That being said, Its your drink mix it how you like it. Good video. Glad I found your channel.
Welcome back, dude! Good to see new videos
STEVE!!!! Great class!!! Being that this is one of my fav cocktails, I was interested to see the outcome of this!!! (I def stir mine) CHEERS!!!!!!
This was a great comparison, there is generally a reason why you stir or specific cocktail.
The Manhattan was my brother's introduction to whiskey. He asked about this very thing so I made them both ways for him. The shaken cocktail tasted like it was stretched with water to save money. For me, it made a difference in such a simple drink. Maybe if it was a drink with more ingredients like a Vieux Carré it wouldn't have the same effect but I prefer to stir a stirred drink. I too, am pretentious 😂
it doesn't matter how many ingredients it has, it would just kill the finer tasting notes and make it more flat.
You are 100% right Steve! Nice one .
Been a while since I’ve seen a video of yours. After viewing this one I’m glad you showed up in my feed again. Loved it, definitely sticking around for more!
Thanks Bas! 🙏
Thank you for sharing
Steve, awesome video. Thank you. It's really cool to see this kind of experiment. A Manhattan is not really my drink, but the fundamentals about you should stir over shake and vice-versa are great to know.
Great watch and advice as always 👊🏿
Shaking a Manhattan is my #1 indicator of a clumsy bar program
Do you know bars that do this!?
@@StevetheBartender_ let put it this way. I’m a marketing manager for a liquor distributor. I have to go to a lot of restaurant openings and less than average places to “support.” I wouldn’t say I know them but yes it has happened. As soon as they grab the shaker I say “oh good I’m gonna get carpano water.”
I loved this! And no, Steve, you are not even CLOSE to being pretentious. Some people just like arguing with the professionals because it makes them feel better.
Loved this video!
Why thank you Luke! 🙏
Thank you 👍 for this nices videos always.
Added your book to my wishlist. Keen on reading it. Congrats :)
🙏
I have had people tell me at the bar I work at Manhattan are always shaken. I polite tell them they are wrong.
Lol, you clearly don't know what you're doing. Manhattans are always shaken ;)
@@StevetheBartender_ maybe I can learn how to make proper drinks from your cocktail book 😊😁🙃
Like the experiment. very interesting different look. thanks for trying and sharing results. so Don't shake a Manhattan. Agree. cheers
First of all, love hearing your son in the background, I bet he stares at you with wonder while you're using the shaker! Secondly, cool test. I would think the volume is also different because of the aeration, not just dilution. And the ice shards would be prevented by double straining. BUT, all that is moot if the flavour is different.
I've seen that book so many times on amazon, maybe I need to pick up a copy.
Yeah, could have double strained but it would still be over diluted, aerated and blah! 😂
"Thumbs" up to him - absolutely!
So I recently started working as a bartender….I can proudly say Steve the bartender taught me everything I need to know….thanks to you man I learned a skill
Not to take anything away from Steve and his colleagues, but one important thing you can’t learn from mixologists on TH-cam is how to be a bartender. I haven’t seen one single video that explains how to deal with a full bar, three people deep. I haven’t seen one video that tells you how to get your barback to stop looking at his phone and get to washing glasses. There’s not a single video that tells you how to explain to the servers that ringing in all their drinks at once will result in them getting their drinks slower.
My point is, if you’re just starting behind the bar, learn how to manage it. Making drinks is 30% of what being a bartender is. Nobody cares about your stirred or shaken drinks if they’re waiting 20 minutes to get it.
Good luck my friend.
Thanks Daniel! Glad to hear you've found the vids useful :)
@@StevetheBartender_ cheers mate
Thanks for the video, usually there are sound reasons why +99% of people use a particular technique and the video points that out nicely. The old adage " you don't need to reinvent the wheel" seems to apply here.
I received Liquid Intelligence for Christmas several years ago, and it's the reason I went from occasionally making a margarita to considering bartending one of my biggest hobbies
I smile every time you shake the shaker...it just tickles me
💯 Correct on that drink being sent back.
I hate it so much. 🤣
I love the FOR SCIENCE experiments!!
That's why James Bond have his Martini shaken, to sip on the dilution and ice shards on top while on a mission! What a great spy!
I was thinking of doing this last night but didnt. Thanks
Yes! Anyone that's tasted both options can notice the dilution difference between shaking and stirring (and swizzling, as well), but ON TOP of that, I'd also add the texture difference (which, funnily, impacts the way our mouth tastes, also): shaking aerates the cocktail, as well as getting ice shards in it, while stirred drinks should have nearly none of those two.
how about rolling it insteed?
its a like the middlepoint of stirring and shaking
Steve, I think the appearance of the shaken got you on the 'horrible'ness of that cocktail even before trying 😂
Why wouldn’t you double strain the shaken version?
Love the video Steve. Shut that guy the hell up.
Hi sir
Make video of mocktails
Do you have small glassware or just giant hands?
I shake my martini a lot because it’s super hot out, but I double strain. Haven’t tried it with a Manhattan but will now.
What about trying a Campari Shakerato? Just campari shaken on ice which changes the drink tottaly
There is a way to chill without diluting. It's those 'soap-stone' cube that you keep in the freezer until it's time to use.
The law states the relationship between ice and the liquid.
Seriously… I can’t believe people would even consider shaking this! Lol definitely stirred bro!! 🤘🏼
I've had my Manhattan, stirred with & without ice, shaken, on the rocks & on a block of ice. So everyway you can think of. If I make them at home I don't shake them. I used to though.
I did similar experiment with several cocktails but only put 3 1/2 oz ice cubes to control the dillution and shake it until ice is "gone"... not always but in general the shaken version taste better, specially on the nose. Aromas are more "present" in the cocktails.
You diluted all the ice? Which cocktails did you do this with?
I think that shaking a brown spirit makes for a cloudy drink vs stirring which results in a clear drink. I think if you had shaken the Manhattan a little less vigorously and for a little less time, it would not have been as frothy and diluted, but it would have been cloudy.
I always stir manhattans. 1 to avoid it looking like coffee and 2 to avoid getting foam on top both of which spoil the aesthetics of the cocktail. Agree with you 100% Steve.
It's embarrassing when someone is aggressively wrong
You can 100% taste the bruising in a shaken Manhattan!
Haha, yeah!
one additional note to the ice is to let it temper for a few seconds before putting into liquid so ice doesn't explode when warmer liquid comes in contact with it.
atleast that's how i was trained.
gotta love science.
it cracks and tempering is when the ice melts a little bit and then refreezes rearranging the fine crystals around the outside making it stronger.
I personally would never shake a Boulevardier or a Manhattan but if I were asked to by a customer I would double strain to ensure the ice shards do not make it into the drink and I would also only put the booze in contact with the ice when I'm just about to shake/stir it really helps in controlling the dilution so that you can get it to exactly where you want it as drinks like this are very easy to over dilute
Yeah, I would double strain if I was serving t for someone but it wasn’t so much the ice shards that made the drink bad, it was the over-dilution and aeration.
You should have a read of Dave Arnold’s book… or his article below.. surprisingly, adding ice to a drink a little earlier has very minimal affect: www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=4585.html
you could avoid dilution while chilling if you stuck the drink into a ziplock bag then an icebath or a freezer but dilution is part of the balancing of the cocktail.
The law is regard ice and cocktails.
I had a shaken martini at a bar the other day. I did not like the shards of ice but did not complain bc I did not want to be told I am pretentious. Thanks for proving me right.
Should do a shaken old fashioned
Anyone who says they prefer a shaken Manhattan is either lying or never had a proper Manhattan. Call us Manhattan drinkers willfully pretentious all you want, but if the taste of a watered down version is your preferred taste, then maybe Manhattan is just not your drink. It's like claiming you love pineapple pizza but you prefer yours with no pineapple. It just makes no sense
I recently had the misfortune to be served a shaken Manhattan. It was a truly awful cocktail.
@@yaucalabi You know ;) People who love a Manhattan love it exactly because its strong, bold and dramatic in flavor. "Colder" by itself is not better than any or all of those things.
Was it over diluted because the ice was in contact the mixture for longer while you stirred the first one
No, it was because it was shaken. Here is an interesting read that explains that adding ice a little earlier will have minimal affect: www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=4585.html (proof 2)
Shouldn't you strain the shaken also? To get those small pieces of ice
Technically yes, but he was testing the 1:1 concept. With the shaken you would normally double strain to remove the ice shards. It still wouldn't help with the aeration though.
What about shaking for less time to get less dilution?
Could do but I don’t think it will even come close to a stirred Manhattan..
I wonder if a Dry Martini will have similar result for this experiment...The shaken Manhattan looks a lot more foamy and dense on the texture, but will it have similar presentation for a clear cocktail?? Maybe I should try it :)
Please report back! ;)
Soooo many more cocktails fit this profile. But you should do it blindfolded with someone else doing the stirring and shaking.
Was definitely served a shaken Manhattan once at a steak house. I sent it back
Maybe double straining would have been a better direct comparison since you'd avoid the ice chips in the shaken one. No need to do that though, the shaken looks bad in all regards.
How about if you double strain the manhattan? You would not get the ice shards, might still not get the result you want but might not be as bad as this?
It will still be a horrible drink IMO... it was never really meant to be a serious experiment...
4:15
Dilution nearly ceases to occur once the drink has chilled to the temperature of the ice. Of course when you're holding a stainless shaker, it conducts heat from your hand which will increase dilution a little bit. At 4:28, you display a difference of 45 mL between the two drinks (you're surprised it's not more, but I think it's a huge difference). But the difference isn't so much dilution by water as it is dilution by air. The shaken version is full of micro-bubbles that make up the extra volume. I would be curious to know what the difference in volume would be if the shaken version was allowed time to clarify before the volume was measured.
I think he was surprised the shaken didn't look like it had dramatically more volume. The measurement I think came after recording. Not sure if he just repeated the process to get the full volumes for comparison after.
It seems like a more accurate way to measure the dilution would be to weigh the drinks after mixing and pouring. Assuming you're using identical measures of liquor, the difference in weight would equal the difference in water content between the two methods (plus you could see how much dilution, by water weight, is happening in your stirred cocktail as well).
Love your videos. I recommend investing in a microphone or a better one.
Thanks, I have a rode lapel mic.. but echoey? That’s the timber floors.. I need a rug!
I once shook a Negroni. It was horrible. It developed grassy notes that just overwhelmed the entire drink. I'll never make that mistake again.
My first thought was why would anyone push back on saying you should stir it over shaking? The only reason I can think of is if you didn't have a half decent way to make a stirred cocktail, but even then, get some stuff together to be able to make stirred cocktails, problem solved.
The difference in levels of the cocktail in the class. Is quite a lot. It's at least 1 1/2 oz
55ml / 1.83 oz to be exact :)
As I am happiest with strong drinks, I usually like my drinks stirred if not over ice or just neat. But bartenders almost always shake because it's faster, showier, and what people expect.
Cocktails with citrus and sugar should be shaken. Other cocktails should be stirred. Shaking also gives cocktails a lighter texture, while stirring gives a richer mouthfeel.
How could you be with that goofy smile 🤣😂
You think I'm goofy? :'(
Steve have you heard of “tossing,” a drink? It’s supposed to be like shaking your drink but with less dilution and aeration. Apparently you just long pour strain the drink back and forth between 2 shakers. I don’t even know if it does anything different, it might just be people wanting to be different, I haven’t tried it yet. Great video, cheers from The Blue Ridge Mtns!
Throwing the drink typically creates smaller, tighter air bubbles in the drink compared to shaking. It's not bad for a Negroni (nethrowni, heh) but generally spirit forward drinks are better stirred.
Yeah, probably best for something like a Bloody Mary… you want to combine the ingredients but you don’t want it aerated..
@@StevetheBartender_ i hear that the tomato juice separates if you shake it too much.
Where did you get your apron maid
I had many of them made for my mobile company years and years ago from a company in Australia. Can't even remember what they are called as it was so long ago.
I'm now pretty sure you got trolled with that comment, but this was great!
In slight defense of the shaken cocktail, that probably should have been double strained. ;) Though clearly that wasn't the deal breaker!
I love liquid intelligence, but if you're not using ice, you can totally separate dilution and chilling using a freezer or just water. Sometimes it's really useful to dilute cocktails this way for batching and to see how things taste with different temperatures, but similar ABV levels.
I think a fun experiment would be to measure the volume of the shaken cocktail then dilute the stirred cocktail with additional water. Then you'd see how aeration affects taste. Otherwise, many of us definitely don't want a "low ABV manhattan" but I do know folks who probably would much prefer that. :)
Someone that shakes a Manhattan is probably more likely to single strain.. so I was just replicating (but many have pointed this out already).
The fundamental law is regarding ice in drinks… yes, you can definitely chill or dilute without one or the other… but the point was that there is a relationship between chilling and dilution when it comes to ice in drinks.
No he wasn't trolled. You would be surprised on how many people shake them & defend it.
But what am I ? I build my Manhattan, stir with my finger and call it done! One thing you forgot though. More smiles when shaking 😃😄
Anyone have thoughts on using the frozen metal or rock cubes to chill the drink with stirring? I've never tried it.
You’d be better off batching and adding dilution to your cocktail then place it in the freezer.. and pour it straight from the bottle. A cocktail does need dilution which you won’t get from the stones.
@@StevetheBartender_ Thank you!
@@StevetheBartender_ not if you're a neat whisky drinker.
I’ve often wondered how a shaken Manhattan would taste; but think I’ll pass!
That shaken Manhattan just doesn't look right
It looks so bad hey!!
Wow, wasn't expecting the difference to be SO stark ... more than an ounce of extra water??
It just goes to show how efficient shaking is compared to stirring (in regards to chilling and dilution).
We keep our vodka, gin and vermouth in the fridge to mitigate the delusion of ice...
countsistency?
…?
@@StevetheBartender_ you were counting your ice cubed for consistency so that blends together into countsistency.
You could have done strained the shaken version to get rid of the ice shards 👍
Yes, I could have. It was the aeration that made it a no go for me.
@@StevetheBartender_ haha yeah absolutely, still couldn't save the drink. Great video 👊
Thank you sir! 🙏
I advocate against shaking a Martini or related drinks just with the phrase "whipped vermouth". It's usually enough.
To be fair you could double strain the shaked one.
Yes, I could have double strained but it would still be a watery mess..
@@StevetheBartender_ Its blasphemy to shake a manhattan but maybe that mess would be at least something to get drunk without fun…
@@StevetheBartender_ Best wishes and cheers from my Gorilla Bar in Munich. Come by if you are around. Keep on shaking or stirring 😁
Steve I would love to see an experiment that measures the added dilution in a stirred Manhattan. Reason being is sometimes I’m out of ice and I’ll mix the ingredients with a measure of water and then stick the cocktail in the freezer to chill.
He used:
60ml rye whiskey
30ml sweet vermouth
2 dashes of aromatic bitters ~ 2ml
that adds to 92ml while he measured the stirred drink as 110ml
so he added roughly 18ml dilution to the drink
I like the experiments, but the shaken drink was in ice far longer. Both sat while talking, then the shaken sat while stirring 20 s, then the shaken 15s after stirring, then sitting while the first was poured. Seems like same spec, stir, then weigh the result, ditto for shaken, then we know the actual dilution difference.
This is a good read: www.cookingissues.com/index.html%3Fp=4585.html
I know a way how to chill a drink without dilution!
Of course, everybody does.
Count me on the stirred side. The worst Manhattan I was ever served had been shaken and was full of ice shards. Guess I’m pretentious too.
I go by the rule of thumb to stir cocktails that are 100% spirits and shake cocktails that contain other stuff, like simple syrup or citrus juice. Might be some exceptions, but none I can think of off the cuff.
Shaking with citrus is what I've always gone by. No citrus = no shake.
Don't shake an Old Fashioned!
@@klguzik Why would I? There’s no syrup or citrus juice in an Old Fashioned.
Most Old Fashioneds (and their myriad variations) are made with base spirit, syrup, and bitters.
@@klguzik I know what’s in an Old Fashioned, but never had one made with syrup. I always make mine with a crushed sugar cube.
Just call me "pretentious" then. I'll often trade up shaken/stirred dirty vodka martinis. But Manhattans suck when shaken.
Shouts out to who? 🧐
For what it’s worth, I feel like you got a better crema on the shaken Manhattan than you did on the espresso martini made with the crappy ice.
Hi early I think floating is the best way
I will continue to stir my manhattans.
Me too.
Dave Arnold is technically wrong because you can absolutely chill a cocktail without diluting it, it’s just not necessarily the most time effective thing. You can refrigerate them or add whiskey stones, neither adds dilution. Technically… I’m a lot of fun at parties…
The rule is about the relationship between ice, dilution and chilling within a stirred drink. Obviously a drink can be chilled without dilution by placing it in the fridge…. 😂
Only a lunatic would shake a Manhattan.
So I’m a pretentious lunatic then 😂
@@StevetheBartender_ lol no, talking about the idea of it normally. You were doing it for science.
Your claim on dilution and speed is incorrect - you're assuming it's in a vacuum. Stirring slower will yield greater dilution for the same amount of chilling, because both the ice and the drink are chilling the air (and being warmed by it in response). You can also chill in other ways than just with ice melting inside the drink - such as ice melting in an ice bucket that you stick a bottle of something into, storing glassware in a freezer, using ice pockets (ice in silicone or plastic so the water stays inside when it melts). So many ways to skin a cat.
🤦♂️
I can spot a shaken Manhattan from across the room. This is an especially troubling ability when that Manhattan is destined to be mine. That froth interferes with the taste in a bid way.
NOTHING pretension about it.
I mean... you can dilute whiskey with room temperature water. But realistically, nobody would do that with a cocktail so I suppose that is fine.
Still weird to call that a "law".
Obviously you can just add water or chill the spirit in a fridge but this rule is about the relationship of ice in a cocktail regarding chilling and dilution.
Honestly the difference in appearance is shocking! Manhattan's are really not my drink of choice, but the shaken one just doesn't look right.
I had to double take.. I wasn’t expecting it to look so bad!