Oh and for D2 knives, just wipe them with olive oil every 2-3 weeks depending on how you use it. I say olive oil because I sometimes use my knife to process food.
Great video! I watched the entire thing. I have been carrying a pocket knife every day for over 25 years. IMHO the 20CV is the best knife steel for my situations because as you use your knife the more corrosion resistance comes into play. I use my knives every day and live in a humid climate. My CM154 knives eventually start to rust and even carried a Swiss Army knife made of martensitic steel and is started to rust. I stopped carrying all of these knives because of it. I have even had specs of rust show up on S30v knives. Once I switched over to 20CV I never had an issue again. It does not matter what I throw at it my 20cv Benchmade 580 Barrage (with incredible G10 black grips) and S90V 9400 Benchmade Osborne are absolutely flawless. The S90V is an absolute bear to sharpen, and I actually just take it every 3-4 months to a local knife shop and let them sharpen it for me for $10 because it is too damn hard to do it. My 20CV is just incredible. I run it over my 20 degree Benchmade hand sharpener and it is as good as knew. Neither steel has shown zero rust so far, and I have had the Barrage for 6 years and the S90V Osborne for two years. I switch them out every couple of days and one of them is always with me. So, for those that use their knives know that Corrosion resistance is very important so 20CV is a great choice. Now, give me six months and I will let you know how my brand new Christmas present to myself of a Benchmade Osborne 9400 in Burnt Copper Magnacut blade turns out. Cheers!
Last year around May, I purchased a brand new Microtech Ultratech. The blade was made out of M390. I used it on and off for about a year without issue. I only ever used it for breaking down boxes and none of the boxes ever had stables or any metal components. However, around the 1 year mark, I noticed there was some slight chipping on the edge. I have a folder also made from M390 and I don’t have that issue with it. I don’t know if the heat treat was done wrong or what. All I know is I traded it in for a gen 3 combat troodon and I haven’t had any issues with it so far.
6:12 Something that wasn't stated. Concerning that "low toughness" of 3.5, that's not bad for a stainless steel. It's comparable to 154CM or 440C and is entirely serviceable for folding knives. Most stainless steels with as good or better toughness have less edge retention. S90v being the main exception and that is harder to work with. I don't think that m390 will ever be D2-esque. D2 already has the budget category on lock and m390 has a good mixture of properties.
The way to look at it in my POV is best balance of toughness and edge holding above the corrosion resistance of D2, which has always been good enough for me. Which makes my standouts CruWear, 3V, 110V, and S90V. Hell, even K390 is corrosion resistant enough for me, mostly, and that stuff is amazing in terms of edge durability. This vid was an eye opening perspective, and I appreciate ya for it!
Far too many people focus solely on the steel type and pay no attention to heat treat or more importantly their own sharpening habits, both off which can change things like edge retention so drastically that it may as well be the next grade of steel. Most of the people swearing by one steel probably couldn't tell them apart from 5 others in a blind test, they just look at all the graphs out there and cling to whatever sounds best. I recently did some testing with Microtech's M390MK and it's mediocre at best.
I’ve got a Rockstead Higo 2 in ZDP189 DLC coat Ti handle. It’s buttery smooth sharp but needs a special strop made with denim and electron microscope lens polish to keep its edge.
I remember when Zack on BladeHQ was always hyping M390 as his steel of choice. But I can't recall him ever explaining why he loved it so much. With all these steels, budget or high end steel, it all comes down to heat treat doesn't it? As always it depends on how much the manufacturer is willing to put into a knife.
@Rollshambo Buck Knives BOS heat treat system is the best, most advanced heat treat on the knife market. Its exactly why they can take a regular run of the mill stainless steel like 420hc and make it serve the purpose of a standard knife steel better than any company can. You will notice the same with 12c27m, ATS34, S30V, and S35VN from Buck being much better than the same steels from other outfits like Benchmade, Esse, ect
@@HPAcustomriflesandcerakoteYep. It's their cryo treatment, at the least. Custom knives as well with certain nerdy knife makers. 12c27 done plain can have a fair bit of retained austenite and be 58hrc at best, with cryo you can get up to 61 or so with a reasonably low temper. A very poorly done m390 will have awful RA and be soft, so it won't hold an edge well due to deformation, have bad burrs you can't get rid of, and so on.
Very well done, sir I am impressed by your ability to stick to facts. It’s nice to see videos that don’t put anybody down. That’s hard to do nice work.
great video! being from and living in tropical Costa Rica, corrosion resistance is very important to me, i don't abuse my knives so edge retention is important but not as corr.res, I've liked m390 a lot because of this but I'm definitely eyeing that s110v... thanks!
For me, as long as I always own a knife sharpener, I don't consider edge retention at all. However, I am blessed to own a lot of knives...that helps keep them sharp too 😂
Hahaha ain't that the truth! My ever growing collection is the greatest tool to always having a sharp knife😂🙌 I do enjoy sharpening though, it's why 14c is one of my favorite(most underrated) steels
But why not save yourself the hassle of less sharpening jobs and less steel lost over time as a result? Your knives have a limited amount of steel on them, and while you're unlikely to ever kill off a knive's entire blade stock, you are eating away more steel with every sharpening making that cutting performance worse over time because the geometry simply gets thicker, quicker. Less sharpening = thinner for longer.
@zombeach9589 sure but most of the time 14c is on knives that aren't terribly expensive to replace, and if you completely use up a blade because you've had to sharpen it a bunch you're probably years down the road on it and it was worth what it cost. I'm not worried about that though because if I get my use out of my tools it was money well spent
@@Rollshambo Can't stand 14C and the cost is marginally less than solid deals you can find on 154CM or even M390 even if it's heat treated decently which plenty still claim is "poor" at 59-60 HRC. My m390 twosun cost me $80 and have yet to need a legitimate sharpening job done yet for the past 8 months of bi-daily use going through probably 200 feet of cardboard on those work days. All I've needed was a few passes on a ceramic rod every month and it's good. 30 seconds of time versus what was bi-weekly sharpening for my Civivi Cogent in 14c28n. Can't stand the steel now that I've had experience with it versus reportedly poorly heat treated m390 from TwoSun.
@zombeach9589 to each their own! You may not have had some good 14c examples so far, for example 14c that's been cryo treated to 62 hrc is going to perform closer to s35vn but at the end of the day we are blessed with many options, if you like your twosun that's the only thing that matters😁
BINGO: THE RIGHT HARDNESS & RIGHT HT PROTOCOL GIVES YOU ITS BEST OPTION FOR EDGE APEX STABILITY. CHASING TOUGHNESS THROUGH SOFTNESS IS A FOOLS ERRAND, & SOFTER STEEL ALSO MISS THEIR TARGET OF TOUTED CORROSION RESISTANCE.
Awesome video! Would you say m390 is obsolete as a steel in premium knives, especially when you have steels like magnacut now? Think Koenig arius (m390) vs Oz Roosevelt (magnacut 63-64hrc)
@@m.k.k.4931 ok ok. Now, would you take M390 over magnacut in any situation? Is M390’s slightly better edge retention more valuable than magnacut’s more balanced properties?
@@everythingsharpMe? Nah. S90v if you really want high edge retention in a slicer, but even then, you'd probably be fine with VG10.. or MagnaCut if fancy.
I love me a good custom patina tool steel on a folder though, m4 or K390 can take a keener angle than more britle vanadium stainless Steels, maybe better for thicker geometries. I wouldn't buy those thin bugout or deka in 20cv or S90V for fear of chipping in use. Magnacut is another deal.
@dayannahkali I for one am glad that American companies like hogue and protech have listened to the community and are now producing magnacut at a higher hrc, it's encouraging to feel heard, sometimes I think folks forget about the high edge retention tradeoff that is poor toughness(maxamet/rex121) it's a constant reminder that sometimes you get your cake and don't get to eat it😂
RIP CTS-204P being the forgotten third brother (like if there was a third Wright brother). Thanks for laying this out. It helps a lot. When I think of companies that lead with M390/20CV as a premium feature, my mind jumps to Urban EDC. They do have some nice designs from excellent designers but the M390 and overall "cool" tax has slowly turned me away from some of their offerings. I feel like TRM justifies it (along with their pricing/availability model but that's a different story). That being said, my seigaiha UEDC x Knafs Lander was in my pocket today and goes in there often. Oh. I looked up the Wright brothers. They were two of SEVEN. I guess that checks out for the time period. RIP to the rest of the Wright siblings that aren't the famous ones.
For me it all comes down to how easy it is to sharpen your knife. If you can’t maintain your knife, then what’s the point in carrying it? I hear M390 can be annoying to sharpen; my carbon steels are easy in comparison, but I’m not a pro. I own many types of stones and I always hesitate to use diamond stones if they’re aggressive. Strop and compounds have been my go to lately, but I rarely chip anything or dull my knives completely.
Are these stats on the three knife steel qualities based on a knife steel heat treat or the heat treat that is recommended for the plastics industry? Or do they have comparible heat treats yielding the same Rockwell specifications?
thanks for watching! the ratings come directly from the website www.knifesteelnerds.com , created by notable knife steel metallurgist Dr Larrin Thomas. the tests he performed were on identically shaped "knives" that he made of each steel, the rockwell hardness varies between steels but based on info he has provided most steels on his rating list were hardened to somewhere between 60-62 with some outliers that really do need to be hardened to a higher extent if heat treated to proper protocols (cruwear at 65) - if youre interested in how he got to those numbers he has a wealth of information available on his website and id definitely recommend checking it out :)
I have a Cali legal microtech in 204p, tiny yet mighty. It has served me well. I don't baby it or sharpen it, and it has held up. It's worth every penny, lifetime guarantee to boot.
You hit on a major problem in the industry. I can't tell you how many times I've bought knives and the steel is absolutely sub-par. Could you imagine paying the money for a BMW M5, and finding out they didn't tune it for performance?
It is a good steel, it's a great steel. Just don't buy it from a manufacturer that doesn't heat treat it properly. You can find that same issue with all steels. At the end of the day, my M390 is holding up much better than then any other non super steel. As for the outdated issue. That happens, one day Magnacut will be outdated.
It's sickening that so many companies are running M390, 204p and 20cv way to soft. If you pay extra for a good steel like m390 it should be heat treated to at minimum 60 to 62 not 58 to 60, that's just rediculously IMO.
M390 at 63-65 done by Cultrotech is like a different steel. It tests it has about the same edge retention as s90v done by them at the same hardness. I already loved Elmax but after getting a Cultrotech Slim in it at 65hrc it became one of my favorite steels (s125v being another). Same with m398, comparing a Fox Knives at 60-61hrc vs an Assassin knives custom at 64hrc. Though that's usually the case for most steels. Custom 440b (61-61.5hrc), 14c28n (63hrc) 19c27 (62-62.5hrc) Nitro-V (63hrc), Aeb-l (63.5hrc), 1095 (65-66hrc), M4 (65-66hrc) M390(64hrc), S30v(63hrc), Vanadis 10 (65-65.5hrc, though i never experienced a production vanadis 10, but its similar to 10V/A11 class) all feel and perform much better than production from my experience. The smallest difference I've experienced is in k390 and Cruwear because Spyderco does a great job with them, getting a lot out of the steel. Magnacut (done at 63-64) and Vanax (most production are at 60hrc) are also closer to customs at 1-2hrc harder (65hrc MC and 62hrc Vanax). Heat treatment has gotten better as if late, but with certain steels like m390 we still see the industry standard being 59-61 or 60-62. Some makers push it beyond 62hrc, but its rare to see. Which is a shame because it performs a lot better then.
Yep, I'd sooner buy a lesser steel with a great heat treatment from Spiderco than a more fancy steel with a poor heat treatment for a bit cheaper. Cru-wear from Spiderco sounds like the best combo, and MagnaCut very close behind it.
@mikafoxx2717 Spyderco do a really good job with most steels. For widely available options, it's about as good as it gets. But when you experience custom HT, it's a different story. I love my Elmax para 2 with a Krein regrind to 0.005", but it's not close to Cultrotech Slim in Elmax at 65hrc. Like you, I'd rather take a "lesser" steel with a good HT than a premium steel that's done poorly. If you like cruwear, you should check out CPR. It's a German steel that's like a stainless non PM cruwear (elements are pretty close). I have a custom in it at 65hrc and it's really nice. It's tough, easy to sharpen, takes a great edge like cruwear but it's more stainless. Wish it was more available.
I think most buy m390 just for the sake of it being m390. I don’t ever use my blade steels hard enough to tell the difference between 20cv, 14c, or s35.
Great video, very informative! I like m390 it's ok, I have several knives in this steel (and many others) I have knives in d2 that holds a wicked edge and doesn't rust too 😂 (with some general tlc:;)
After buying a few knives from diverse companies and price point, I can see now how hardness is prior and how anything past 62 is so much better than all those 58-60 stuf, wether s35vn or m390, that loose their edge more by deformation, as opposed to abrasion. S90V is optimal at 59-60, so maybe it is the steel to buy from Chinese companies ,since they seem to do 58-60 regardless of the steel... But that is saying it's a steel for softer and more abrasive materials (cardboard, foam etc), if you want to cut some tougher harder stuff, have yourself something over 63 and higher toughness (M4, k390, Magnacut) it'll be a game changer. Low angles reign over vanadium carbide imo. (and 20cv has not that much of it anyways, not the best catra results either)
Definitely agree. Edge retention from wear doesn't mean much if in regular use the apex mushes itself dull first. Same problem 440c had and got a bad rap from, when in custom knives it's totally fine at higher hardness. Same for 12c27 and 14c28n. If you only used it at 56-57 HRC from a mora or something, it won't look good to the masses but brought to 63 with faster quench to cryo, and double temper, it'll be killer.
@@mikafoxx2717 Oh yeah, and so many companies prefer toughness over hardness for warranty reasons it is a shame. I made a few xc75 knives, heat treated with a gaz forge, and they turned out way better than any of my fancy VG10 damascus cooking knives from china and that was kind of frustrating.
@@dayannahkali It's silly, because it's such a tough steel to begin with. People go make blades in brittle D2 and people think it's tough, because the blade is thick enough. Well, it would be thick enough to run it harder too. Most places don't do cryo for the high alloy stuff, and don't dare temper below 400f, I think. Plus single temper vs double. I'm not sure why 1095 is also run at 58, probably because it is much more brittle than 420hc, etc. 1084 done well is actually fantastic, and fancier steels could only be better if done well.
@@mikafoxx2717 Absolutely. And I'd say that I've grown tired of buying fancy titanium knives with crazy powder steel blades only to hate them because they can't hold an edge and are a pain to sharpen up. Particularly m390 and S35vn, but since they are the most present on the market, I would guess it makes sense
Thank u so much for the accurate information and reliable recources, so many people trust the web and there is so much wrong info out there, i respect ur p.o.v.
When you do polls you need to do 3 of same poll in order to get as accurate as possible cuz a lot of people may not have seen the poll and you need and actual average 🤙. However I agree
I'll run the poll again because now I'm curious if the results will be si.ilar or if I get a different spread than I did originally, thanks for the idea🙌
I just bought an otf on Aliepress and I had the choice to go m390 or Damascus for the same price, It was a really hard decision because the Damascus looked bad ass but I wanted a quality blade so I chose the m390. I would link a pic cuz opinions would be nice.
@@KyleMaynard-sk2je Of course it's fake and what's hilarious is I just open the package an hour ago. I can't tell if it's actual m390 but it's definitely the sharpest knife I ever bought. Various things scream that it's obviously not real, not sure how I feel about it but I'm gonna make a lil review short on my alt channel tonight I think. "Random Land"
Wow! GREAT stuff, very informative. So maybe they are making knives with it cuz we THINK we want it? And we think we want it cuz we saw it on a few premium folders, and assumed if they are using it, it must be good? Kind of a fictitious bandwagon? Thanks again
I’ve been done with m390 for a while. I’m not just sick of it. It’s not all that with edge retention & sharpening. Hopefully Magnacut replaces it & ends up being the default premium stainless
I don't hate m390 I'm just tired of companies touting it as a super steel(even though it is) while refusing to heat treat it to the proper hrc(this is the same issue everyone ended up having with D2) the difference in wear resistance between properly hard m390 and what we typically see is kinda sad
The machining of the shape and bevels is made before hardening, only final finish and sharpening is made after heat treatment, why would one harden the steel prior to machining, it would no sense and would only make work more difficult with no benefit. If heat treatment should be done prior to machining then the steel would be heat treated by the manufacturer.
I think 3v is a great user steel especially for thicker edge geometry type blades or blades that require more toughness for their assumed tasks, it's extremely tough and has very decent edge retention..its weak point is corrosion resistance but of the user is willing to maintain, oil and provide care after cutting tasks most people would enjoy using it...damn..now I need to make a steel snobs video about it😂 ..thanks for watching🍻
I'm making this comment 1 minute in because I have a good idea where you are going with edge retention. To me, edge retention is one of the last things I care about on a folding knife. Toughness and ease of sharpening is king to me. I will follow up after I watch the rest of the video but I figure if you are a knife guy your keen on sharpening.
Thanks for the information. It was informative, but I wish you would’ve made more relevant comparisons. Like steels that commonly used in modern knives, i.e. S30V, S35VN, S45VN, S90V, Magnacut, etc. Thanks! ;-}. MM
Not sure about m390, but if I had to be a snob. My favorite premium blade steels are Magnacut, Vanax, S90V, and Cruwear. As far as budget goes, RWL-34, AEB-L, and CPM 154 These are my favorite simply from me having the best luck sharpening them. If I had to pick one, Magnacut or Vanax. Commented before the video.
You can't talk about how important stain resistance is and then compare it to a bunch of non stainless steels. M390 has excellent edge retention compared to most stainless steels it also has great toughness compared to other stainless steels, as well as superior stain resistance relative to most other stainless steels. M390 has a well-deserved reputation because of these well-balanced characteristics. S110 is great too, but I think its reputation for being difficult to sharpen makes it less desirable for many people. It also has a reputation for not being a very tough steel. This chart does make it seem as if it might be tougher than people seem to believe, though. Overall, I like both but prefer the m390 because it has excellent edge retention while also being easy to sharpen. If s110v proves to be easier to sharpen that i have been led to believe, i will let you know a few years from now when I need to resharpen my s110v knives.
M390 doesn't have great toughness. Go look at the knifesteelnerd tests. It's at the bottom end almost all other common power steels are better. It has too much carbide to be tough.
I own a lot of knives made of different carbon steels and stainless steels. My Bradford Guardian 3 and Guardian 4 made of m390 have better edge retention than most of my others. You are comparing it to ridiculous super steels like s90 and maxamet. Compare m390 to s30v, s35vn and s45vn which are consider super steels. M390 is a great steel
The thing about all these super steels that the manufactures produce as you stated in your video is they are heat treated mainly at a sub par hardness in order to save cost with as you stated once again going through belts less to grind the blades & more of such costs, that said we as in the knife consuoirs need to stop buying the latest & greatest in the super steels in these knifes because we are being charged "on par" heat treatment prices on the "sub par" or less heat treats, these companies bank on the public falling for the whole entire process of steel in order to get a super steel in our knives, but never mention anywhere where the hrc is with each blade that is produced because that would cost more for employees to have to work, but ain't it funny they can lazer etch a limited serial number on a blade & type of steel the blade is made of but not the hrc on the blade, ain't that a bitch, IF WE ARE GOING TO PAY HIGH ASS SUPER STEEL PRICES THEY NEED TO BE HEAT TREATED AT OPTIMAL LEVELS THAT THE STEEL CALLS FOR OTHER WISE THE STEEL FOR ONE IS NOT AS GOOD AS THE REP GETS @ THE PROPER HEAT TREAT AND 2 IT MAKES IT A WORSE STEEL THAT THE MORE SIMPLER PRACTICAL STEELS SUCH AS INGOT D2 STEEL, CR8MOV13, AUS 8, AUS10, & SO ON... IN MOST CASES.
0:02 I dont worry about m390 now that magnacut is now going to take over. Which boring and is just an all around good steel, not what I personally need. I need it not to chip so maxamet is my slice only edc, I prefer 10v but M4 is available more and it's pretty great for my needs.
IMO, the end user would also have to look at the steel from an economic viewpoint. M390 on a $400 knife? Not such a great deal. M390 on a $40 knife? Maybe a great find. It's all relative. I have a Civivi Elementum Fixed in D2 for $68. It's razor sharp and maintains its edge better than my 420HC and S30V blades. And because I take a little bit of care with it (I dry it if wet, wipe off debris after use) rust, corrosion, and stains are not a worry. I have a TwoSun TS247 in M390 for $40. Is it a "great" heat treat? Probably not. But I bet it's better than most $40 knives. I realize these are junk knives compared to the high end blades on your channel. But FOR ME, the low $$ plus the decent usability equals a great find. And they are tools after all. What's the point of worrying about the blade steel if you keep your $1200 knife UNUSED in a drawer??? I enjoyed your video. THANK YOU!
Kizer begleiter m390 is a total garbage . I own one. It's soft, gets dull just after a few uses. My Buck in 420HC holds edge much more reliably. So, I agree with the author of this video -- a lot of companies just try to ride the hype and put out cheap products, which is worthless.
M390 has always been my favorite just w/ usage, however Microtech does Elmax right! My ultratech took a razor edge on the W/E and it stays sharp forever it seems
Beware of spyderco lc200n, it's very soft, disapointing... Civivi's 14C is better for a third of the price and no plastic handles... Go harder steel, it'll change everything.
Damn, I wasn’t paying attention just now and I was pretty sure I was watching a video narrated by Taylor Martin. Their cadence and voice is almost identical. 😂
Let’s face it: M390 sounds cool.
Yeah I fall into this trap with steels like magnacut and cru wear
Yeah but k390 sounds and works better
Oh and for D2 knives, just wipe them with olive oil every 2-3 weeks depending on how you use it. I say olive oil because I sometimes use my knife to process food.
M390 sounds like a granade launcher.
This series is awesome. S90V is king for edc. Great job man.
Totally agree on s90v! So glad to see It getting used more here in 2024 than what we've seen in prior years! Thanks for watching brotha 🍻
Great video! I watched the entire thing.
I have been carrying a pocket knife every day for over 25 years. IMHO the 20CV is the best knife steel for my situations because as you use your knife the more corrosion resistance comes into play. I use my knives every day and live in a humid climate. My CM154 knives eventually start to rust and even carried a Swiss Army knife made of martensitic steel and is started to rust. I stopped carrying all of these knives because of it. I have even had specs of rust show up on S30v knives.
Once I switched over to 20CV I never had an issue again. It does not matter what I throw at it my 20cv Benchmade 580 Barrage (with incredible G10 black grips) and S90V 9400 Benchmade Osborne are absolutely flawless. The S90V is an absolute bear to sharpen, and I actually just take it every 3-4 months to a local knife shop and let them sharpen it for me for $10 because it is too damn hard to do it. My 20CV is just incredible. I run it over my 20 degree Benchmade hand sharpener and it is as good as knew. Neither steel has shown zero rust so far, and I have had the Barrage for 6 years and the S90V Osborne for two years. I switch them out every couple of days and one of them is always with me.
So, for those that use their knives know that Corrosion resistance is very important so 20CV is a great choice.
Now, give me six months and I will let you know how my brand new Christmas present to myself of a Benchmade Osborne 9400 in Burnt Copper Magnacut blade turns out. Cheers!
Last year around May, I purchased a brand new Microtech Ultratech. The blade was made out of M390. I used it on and off for about a year without issue. I only ever used it for breaking down boxes and none of the boxes ever had stables or any metal components. However, around the 1 year mark, I noticed there was some slight chipping on the edge. I have a folder also made from M390 and I don’t have that issue with it. I don’t know if the heat treat was done wrong or what. All I know is I traded it in for a gen 3 combat troodon and I haven’t had any issues with it so far.
6:12 Something that wasn't stated. Concerning that "low toughness" of 3.5, that's not bad for a stainless steel. It's comparable to 154CM or 440C and is entirely serviceable for folding knives. Most stainless steels with as good or better toughness have less edge retention. S90v being the main exception and that is harder to work with. I don't think that m390 will ever be D2-esque. D2 already has the budget category on lock and m390 has a good mixture of properties.
The way to look at it in my POV is best balance of toughness and edge holding above the corrosion resistance of D2, which has always been good enough for me. Which makes my standouts CruWear, 3V, 110V, and S90V. Hell, even K390 is corrosion resistant enough for me, mostly, and that stuff is amazing in terms of edge durability. This vid was an eye opening perspective, and I appreciate ya for it!
Medford are making D2 knives over 400.00$
Give MagnaCut a go if you haven't. Best rounded of all things.
Far too many people focus solely on the steel type and pay no attention to heat treat or more importantly their own sharpening habits, both off which can change things like edge retention so drastically that it may as well be the next grade of steel. Most of the people swearing by one steel probably couldn't tell them apart from 5 others in a blind test, they just look at all the graphs out there and cling to whatever sounds best. I recently did some testing with Microtech's M390MK and it's mediocre at best.
I’ve got a Rockstead Higo 2 in ZDP189 DLC coat Ti handle. It’s buttery smooth sharp but needs a special strop made with denim and electron microscope lens polish to keep its edge.
I remember when Zack on BladeHQ was always hyping M390 as his steel of choice. But I can't recall him ever explaining why he loved it so much. With all these steels, budget or high end steel, it all comes down to heat treat doesn't it? As always it depends on how much the manufacturer is willing to put into a knife.
I agree 100%, its why I'm such a spyderco fan they don't mess around with the heat treat
@Rollshambo Buck Knives BOS heat treat system is the best, most advanced heat treat on the knife market. Its exactly why they can take a regular run of the mill stainless steel like 420hc and make it serve the purpose of a standard knife steel better than any company can. You will notice the same with 12c27m, ATS34, S30V, and S35VN from Buck being much better than the same steels from other outfits like Benchmade, Esse, ect
@@HPAcustomriflesandcerakoteYep. It's their cryo treatment, at the least. Custom knives as well with certain nerdy knife makers. 12c27 done plain can have a fair bit of retained austenite and be 58hrc at best, with cryo you can get up to 61 or so with a reasonably low temper. A very poorly done m390 will have awful RA and be soft, so it won't hold an edge well due to deformation, have bad burrs you can't get rid of, and so on.
Very well done, sir I am impressed by your ability to stick to facts. It’s nice to see videos that don’t put anybody down. That’s hard to do nice work.
Love the knowledge
Don't mind me..just swimming in this chasm known as the knife community rabbit hole😂
great video! being from and living in tropical Costa Rica, corrosion resistance is very important to me, i don't abuse my knives so edge retention is important but not as corr.res, I've liked m390 a lot because of this but I'm definitely eyeing that s110v... thanks!
For me, as long as I always own a knife sharpener, I don't consider edge retention at all. However, I am blessed to own a lot of knives...that helps keep them sharp too 😂
Hahaha ain't that the truth! My ever growing collection is the greatest tool to always having a sharp knife😂🙌 I do enjoy sharpening though, it's why 14c is one of my favorite(most underrated) steels
But why not save yourself the hassle of less sharpening jobs and less steel lost over time as a result? Your knives have a limited amount of steel on them, and while you're unlikely to ever kill off a knive's entire blade stock, you are eating away more steel with every sharpening making that cutting performance worse over time because the geometry simply gets thicker, quicker. Less sharpening = thinner for longer.
@zombeach9589 sure but most of the time 14c is on knives that aren't terribly expensive to replace, and if you completely use up a blade because you've had to sharpen it a bunch you're probably years down the road on it and it was worth what it cost. I'm not worried about that though because if I get my use out of my tools it was money well spent
@@Rollshambo Can't stand 14C and the cost is marginally less than solid deals you can find on 154CM or even M390 even if it's heat treated decently which plenty still claim is "poor" at 59-60 HRC. My m390 twosun cost me $80 and have yet to need a legitimate sharpening job done yet for the past 8 months of bi-daily use going through probably 200 feet of cardboard on those work days. All I've needed was a few passes on a ceramic rod every month and it's good. 30 seconds of time versus what was bi-weekly sharpening for my Civivi Cogent in 14c28n. Can't stand the steel now that I've had experience with it versus reportedly poorly heat treated m390 from TwoSun.
@zombeach9589 to each their own! You may not have had some good 14c examples so far, for example 14c that's been cryo treated to 62 hrc is going to perform closer to s35vn but at the end of the day we are blessed with many options, if you like your twosun that's the only thing that matters😁
BINGO: THE RIGHT HARDNESS & RIGHT HT PROTOCOL GIVES YOU ITS BEST OPTION FOR EDGE APEX STABILITY. CHASING TOUGHNESS THROUGH SOFTNESS IS A FOOLS ERRAND, & SOFTER STEEL ALSO MISS THEIR TARGET OF TOUTED CORROSION RESISTANCE.
🔥🔥🙌
Awesome video! Would you say m390 is obsolete as a steel in premium knives, especially when you have steels like magnacut now?
Think Koenig arius (m390) vs Oz Roosevelt (magnacut 63-64hrc)
It's a balance between strength and sharpness. M390 was second to maximent from spyderco. M390 is German so thats y. German products is always quality
@@m.k.k.4931 ok ok. Now, would you take M390 over magnacut in any situation? Is M390’s slightly better edge retention more valuable than magnacut’s more balanced properties?
@@everythingsharpMe? Nah. S90v if you really want high edge retention in a slicer, but even then, you'd probably be fine with VG10.. or MagnaCut if fancy.
Dear God!! Finally someone that talks common sense
Awesome video Rollshambo ! Lost of great information. Thanks,
Bluetooth Blades.
Great vid, across the board Magnacut is very good, but after usage M4, and sv90, seem to be the choice of knife users. 😊 M4 Fixed, and s90v folding.
I've found that s90v is the steel that marketing campaigns make m390 out to be..I want more knives in s90v
I love me a good custom patina tool steel on a folder though, m4 or K390 can take a keener angle than more britle vanadium stainless Steels, maybe better for thicker geometries. I wouldn't buy those thin bugout or deka in 20cv or S90V for fear of chipping in use. Magnacut is another deal.
@dayannahkali I for one am glad that American companies like hogue and protech have listened to the community and are now producing magnacut at a higher hrc, it's encouraging to feel heard, sometimes I think folks forget about the high edge retention tradeoff that is poor toughness(maxamet/rex121) it's a constant reminder that sometimes you get your cake and don't get to eat it😂
@@Rollshambo those are not cheap, but they surely can chip !
Wow you have a lot of great points on those steels and you have opened my eyes to the way I perceive knives. Awesome video 👍
RIP CTS-204P being the forgotten third brother (like if there was a third Wright brother).
Thanks for laying this out. It helps a lot. When I think of companies that lead with M390/20CV as a premium feature, my mind jumps to Urban EDC. They do have some nice designs from excellent designers but the M390 and overall "cool" tax has slowly turned me away from some of their offerings. I feel like TRM justifies it (along with their pricing/availability model but that's a different story). That being said, my seigaiha UEDC x Knafs Lander was in my pocket today and goes in there often.
Oh. I looked up the Wright brothers. They were two of SEVEN. I guess that checks out for the time period. RIP to the rest of the Wright siblings that aren't the famous ones.
For me it all comes down to how easy it is to sharpen your knife. If you can’t maintain your knife, then what’s the point in carrying it? I hear M390 can be annoying to sharpen; my carbon steels are easy in comparison, but I’m not a pro. I own many types of stones and I always hesitate to use diamond stones if they’re aggressive. Strop and compounds have been my go to lately, but I rarely chip anything or dull my knives completely.
I'm loving S90V on my folding pocket knife.
Are these stats on the three knife steel qualities based on a knife steel heat treat or the heat treat that is recommended for the plastics industry? Or do they have comparible heat treats yielding the same Rockwell specifications?
thanks for watching! the ratings come directly from the website www.knifesteelnerds.com , created by notable knife steel metallurgist Dr Larrin Thomas. the tests he performed were on identically shaped "knives" that he made of each steel, the rockwell hardness varies between steels but based on info he has provided most steels on his rating list were hardened to somewhere between 60-62 with some outliers that really do need to be hardened to a higher extent if heat treated to proper protocols (cruwear at 65) - if youre interested in how he got to those numbers he has a wealth of information available on his website and id definitely recommend checking it out :)
I am wondering what would be the perfect combination steel for a machete (golok) that would break iron and keeps sharpness and touchness..
I have a Cali legal microtech in 204p, tiny yet mighty. It has served me well. I don't baby it or sharpen it, and it has held up. It's worth every penny, lifetime guarantee to boot.
Awesome video, brother 👍
The softer heat treats are also because of the uneducated consumer. How many people actually know about HRC that aren’t knife nerds.
I just bought a m390 knife that promises/guarantees 60-62 , is that a decent range for m390?
Good data Roll.
Great vid, ROLLY. S90V & Magnacut for this guy.
Not overhyped,High quality steel!!!!!!!
Great video! 👊
You hit on a major problem in the industry. I can't tell you how many times I've bought knives and the steel is absolutely sub-par. Could you imagine paying the money for a BMW M5, and finding out they didn't tune it for performance?
It is a good steel, it's a great steel. Just don't buy it from a manufacturer that doesn't heat treat it properly. You can find that same issue with all steels. At the end of the day, my M390 is holding up much better than then any other non super steel. As for the outdated issue. That happens, one day Magnacut will be outdated.
That was informative, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!🙌
I love my little Davalin it's a small fixed blade and it's D2.
It's sickening that so many companies are running M390, 204p and 20cv way to soft. If you pay extra for a good steel like m390 it should be heat treated to at minimum 60 to 62 not 58 to 60, that's just rediculously IMO.
Great information, great video! Thank you for sharing.🔪🖤🗡
M390 at 63-65 done by Cultrotech is like a different steel. It tests it has about the same edge retention as s90v done by them at the same hardness. I already loved Elmax but after getting a Cultrotech Slim in it at 65hrc it became one of my favorite steels (s125v being another). Same with m398, comparing a Fox Knives at 60-61hrc vs an Assassin knives custom at 64hrc.
Though that's usually the case for most steels. Custom 440b (61-61.5hrc), 14c28n (63hrc) 19c27 (62-62.5hrc) Nitro-V (63hrc), Aeb-l (63.5hrc), 1095 (65-66hrc), M4 (65-66hrc) M390(64hrc), S30v(63hrc), Vanadis 10 (65-65.5hrc, though i never experienced a production vanadis 10, but its similar to 10V/A11 class) all feel and perform much better than production from my experience. The smallest difference I've experienced is in k390 and Cruwear because Spyderco does a great job with them, getting a lot out of the steel. Magnacut (done at 63-64) and Vanax (most production are at 60hrc) are also closer to customs at 1-2hrc harder (65hrc MC and 62hrc Vanax).
Heat treatment has gotten better as if late, but with certain steels like m390 we still see the industry standard being 59-61 or 60-62. Some makers push it beyond 62hrc, but its rare to see. Which is a shame because it performs a lot better then.
Yep, I'd sooner buy a lesser steel with a great heat treatment from Spiderco than a more fancy steel with a poor heat treatment for a bit cheaper. Cru-wear from Spiderco sounds like the best combo, and MagnaCut very close behind it.
@mikafoxx2717 Spyderco do a really good job with most steels. For widely available options, it's about as good as it gets. But when you experience custom HT, it's a different story. I love my Elmax para 2 with a Krein regrind to 0.005", but it's not close to Cultrotech Slim in Elmax at 65hrc.
Like you, I'd rather take a "lesser" steel with a good HT than a premium steel that's done poorly. If you like cruwear, you should check out CPR. It's a German steel that's like a stainless non PM cruwear (elements are pretty close). I have a custom in it at 65hrc and it's really nice. It's tough, easy to sharpen, takes a great edge like cruwear but it's more stainless. Wish it was more available.
I think most buy m390 just for the sake of it being m390. I don’t ever use my blade steels hard enough to tell the difference between 20cv, 14c, or s35.
Great video.
Fantastic Video. Please, what knife is showed at 7:44
That's the Three Rivers Manufacturing(TRM) Shadow 🍻
Love the video! Do you have any sense on how to CHRB heat treats their m390?
Great stuff
Spot on. I have a Bestech toggatta in m390 and it's possibly the worst edge in my collection.
Great video, very informative! I like m390 it's ok, I have several knives in this steel (and many others) I have knives in d2 that holds a wicked edge and doesn't rust too 😂 (with some general tlc:;)
I'm alittke late on finding this vid but it was very informative for me , thx you
I like CTS-XHP from what I’ve read it’s like a stainless D2 steel
After buying a few knives from diverse companies and price point, I can see now how hardness is prior and how anything past 62 is so much better than all those 58-60 stuf, wether s35vn or m390, that loose their edge more by deformation, as opposed to abrasion.
S90V is optimal at 59-60, so maybe it is the steel to buy from Chinese companies ,since they seem to do 58-60 regardless of the steel... But that is saying it's a steel for softer and more abrasive materials (cardboard, foam etc), if you want to cut some tougher harder stuff, have yourself something over 63 and higher toughness (M4, k390, Magnacut) it'll be a game changer. Low angles reign over vanadium carbide imo. (and 20cv has not that much of it anyways, not the best catra results either)
Definitely agree. Edge retention from wear doesn't mean much if in regular use the apex mushes itself dull first. Same problem 440c had and got a bad rap from, when in custom knives it's totally fine at higher hardness. Same for 12c27 and 14c28n. If you only used it at 56-57 HRC from a mora or something, it won't look good to the masses but brought to 63 with faster quench to cryo, and double temper, it'll be killer.
@@mikafoxx2717 Oh yeah, and so many companies prefer toughness over hardness for warranty reasons it is a shame. I made a few xc75 knives, heat treated with a gaz forge, and they turned out way better than any of my fancy VG10 damascus cooking knives from china and that was kind of frustrating.
@@dayannahkali It's silly, because it's such a tough steel to begin with. People go make blades in brittle D2 and people think it's tough, because the blade is thick enough. Well, it would be thick enough to run it harder too. Most places don't do cryo for the high alloy stuff, and don't dare temper below 400f, I think. Plus single temper vs double. I'm not sure why 1095 is also run at 58, probably because it is much more brittle than 420hc, etc. 1084 done well is actually fantastic, and fancier steels could only be better if done well.
@@mikafoxx2717 Absolutely. And I'd say that I've grown tired of buying fancy titanium knives with crazy powder steel blades only to hate them because they can't hold an edge and are a pain to sharpen up. Particularly m390 and S35vn, but since they are the most present on the market, I would guess it makes sense
Thank u so much for the accurate information and reliable recources, so many people trust the web and there is so much wrong info out there, i respect ur p.o.v.
When you do polls you need to do 3 of same poll in order to get as accurate as possible cuz a lot of people may not have seen the poll and you need and actual average 🤙. However I agree
I'll run the poll again because now I'm curious if the results will be si.ilar or if I get a different spread than I did originally, thanks for the idea🙌
@@Rollshambo For Sures The law of averages, I would like to see that as well lol...🤙💯.
I just bought an otf on Aliepress and I had the choice to go m390 or Damascus for the same price, It was a really hard decision because the Damascus looked bad ass but I wanted a quality blade so I chose the m390. I would link a pic cuz opinions would be nice.
If its aliexpress it's most like fake. sorry.
@@KyleMaynard-sk2je Of course it's fake and what's hilarious is I just open the package an hour ago. I can't tell if it's actual m390 but it's definitely the sharpest knife I ever bought. Various things scream that it's obviously not real, not sure how I feel about it but I'm gonna make a lil review short on my alt channel tonight I think. "Random Land"
Wow! GREAT stuff, very informative. So maybe they are making knives with it cuz we THINK we want it? And we think we want it cuz we saw it on a few premium folders, and assumed if they are using it, it must be good? Kind of a fictitious bandwagon?
Thanks again
I’ve been done with m390 for a while. I’m not just sick of it. It’s not all that with edge retention & sharpening. Hopefully Magnacut replaces it & ends up being the default premium stainless
I don't hate m390 I'm just tired of companies touting it as a super steel(even though it is) while refusing to heat treat it to the proper hrc(this is the same issue everyone ended up having with D2) the difference in wear resistance between properly hard m390 and what we typically see is kinda sad
Did you not watch the video?
@@GYMJAX I did. Still have my own thoughts about it tho. Maybe it’s because I have way too much of the poorly treated kind
The machining of the shape and bevels is made before hardening, only final finish and sharpening is made after heat treatment, why would one harden the steel prior to machining, it would no sense and would only make work more difficult with no benefit.
If heat treatment should be done prior to machining then the steel would be heat treated by the manufacturer.
3V thoughts?
I think 3v is a great user steel especially for thicker edge geometry type blades or blades that require more toughness for their assumed tasks, it's extremely tough and has very decent edge retention..its weak point is corrosion resistance but of the user is willing to maintain, oil and provide care after cutting tasks most people would enjoy using it...damn..now I need to make a steel snobs video about it😂 ..thanks for watching🍻
怎样才能买到
What do you think about 14c28n and AUS-8 steel blades for knives under $30?
14c has better corrosion resistance and toughness than most super steels so id always choose 14c over aus 8 if the option was there
I'm making this comment 1 minute in because I have a good idea where you are going with edge retention. To me, edge retention is one of the last things I care about on a folding knife. Toughness and ease of sharpening is king to me. I will follow up after I watch the rest of the video but I figure if you are a knife guy your keen on sharpening.
Still like my microtech anax because of its titanium one piece body.
Thanks for the information. It was informative, but I wish you would’ve made more relevant comparisons. Like steels that commonly used in modern knives, i.e. S30V, S35VN, S45VN, S90V, Magnacut, etc. Thanks! ;-}. MM
Not sure about m390, but if I had to be a snob.
My favorite premium blade steels are Magnacut, Vanax, S90V, and Cruwear.
As far as budget goes, RWL-34, AEB-L, and CPM 154
These are my favorite simply from me having the best luck sharpening them.
If I had to pick one, Magnacut or Vanax.
Commented before the video.
You can't talk about how important stain resistance is and then compare it to a bunch of non stainless steels. M390 has excellent edge retention compared to most stainless steels it also has great toughness compared to other stainless steels, as well as superior stain resistance relative to most other stainless steels. M390 has a well-deserved reputation because of these well-balanced characteristics. S110 is great too, but I think its reputation for being difficult to sharpen makes it less desirable for many people. It also has a reputation for not being a very tough steel. This chart does make it seem as if it might be tougher than people seem to believe, though. Overall, I like both but prefer the m390 because it has excellent edge retention while also being easy to sharpen. If s110v proves to be easier to sharpen that i have been led to believe, i will let you know a few years from now when I need to resharpen my s110v knives.
M390 doesn't have great toughness. Go look at the knifesteelnerd tests. It's at the bottom end almost all other common power steels are better. It has too much carbide to be tough.
It’s the only steel Tom Hanks uses
I own a lot of knives made of different carbon steels and stainless steels. My Bradford Guardian 3 and Guardian 4 made of m390 have better edge retention than most of my others. You are comparing it to ridiculous super steels like s90 and maxamet. Compare m390 to s30v, s35vn and s45vn which are consider super steels. M390 is a great steel
so youre telling me ive been overpaying for my m390 edc knives!?
Double thumbs up
Kubey drake in m390
The thing about all these super steels that the manufactures produce as you stated in your video is they are heat treated mainly at a sub par hardness in order to save cost with as you stated once again going through belts less to grind the blades & more of such costs, that said we as in the knife consuoirs need to stop buying the latest & greatest in the super steels in these knifes because we are being charged "on par" heat treatment prices on the "sub par" or less heat treats, these companies bank on the public falling for the whole entire process of steel in order to get a super steel in our knives, but never mention anywhere where the hrc is with each blade that is produced because that would cost more for employees to have to work, but ain't it funny they can lazer etch a limited serial number on a blade & type of steel the blade is made of but not the hrc on the blade, ain't that a bitch, IF WE ARE GOING TO PAY HIGH ASS SUPER STEEL PRICES THEY NEED TO BE HEAT TREATED AT OPTIMAL LEVELS THAT THE STEEL CALLS FOR OTHER WISE THE STEEL FOR ONE IS NOT AS GOOD AS THE REP GETS @ THE PROPER HEAT TREAT AND 2 IT MAKES IT A WORSE STEEL THAT THE MORE SIMPLER PRACTICAL STEELS SUCH AS INGOT D2 STEEL, CR8MOV13, AUS 8, AUS10, & SO ON... IN MOST CASES.
If it's cool, it's cool...if it's not, it's not....kinda like middle school haha...
Hahaha ..m390 can't sit with us anymore😂
0:02 I dont worry about m390 now that magnacut is now going to take over. Which boring and is just an all around good steel, not what I personally need. I need it not to chip so maxamet is my slice only edc, I prefer 10v but M4 is available more and it's pretty great for my needs.
I'll take s90v over magnacut all day
IMO, the end user would also have to look at the steel from an economic viewpoint. M390 on a $400 knife? Not such a great deal. M390 on a $40 knife? Maybe a great find. It's all relative. I have a Civivi Elementum Fixed in D2 for $68. It's razor sharp and maintains its edge better than my 420HC and S30V blades. And because I take a little bit of care with it (I dry it if wet, wipe off debris after use) rust, corrosion, and stains are not a worry. I have a TwoSun TS247 in M390 for $40. Is it a "great" heat treat? Probably not. But I bet it's better than most $40 knives. I realize these are junk knives compared to the high end blades on your channel. But FOR ME, the low $$ plus the decent usability equals a great find. And they are tools after all. What's the point of worrying about the blade steel if you keep your $1200 knife UNUSED in a drawer??? I enjoyed your video. THANK YOU!
Kizer begleiter m390 is a total garbage . I own one. It's soft, gets dull just after a few uses. My Buck in 420HC holds edge much more reliably. So, I agree with the author of this video -- a lot of companies just try to ride the hype and put out cheap products, which is worthless.
M390 has always been my favorite just w/ usage, however Microtech does Elmax right! My ultratech took a razor edge on the W/E and it stays sharp forever it seems
I personally don't give a poo about corrosion resistance.
Paper
Scissors
Sick of m390 and i know that i need tougher steel.
If you don't mind a bit of sharpening 3v and 14c/lc200n is great for that toughness- the ladder also have amazing rust resistance
Beware of spyderco lc200n, it's very soft, disapointing... Civivi's 14C is better for a third of the price and no plastic handles...
Go harder steel, it'll change everything.
I gave up waiting for you to get to the point.
Damn, I wasn’t paying attention just now and I was pretty sure I was watching a video narrated by Taylor Martin. Their cadence and voice is almost identical. 😂
Awesome video 🤙