What is the Best Hardness for MagnaCut Knives?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 20 ก.พ. 2022
- Are the knives coming out in MagnaCut heat treated correctly? Are they taking it to the right hardness? How should you (yes you, knifemakers) heat treat it for optimal performance?
Learn more about steel and heat treating in the book Knife Engineering: www.amazon.com/Knife-Engineer...
Articles to read for free on www.KnifeSteelNerds.com
References used in the video: knifesteelnerds.com/2022/02/2...
Wow this video is good. Well done.
Wow, the Nick himself.
Holy crap it is amazing to listen to people who know in depth what they're talking about.
Great video, both in content and in tone. I think your modesty might be preventing you from emphasizing how much of a game changer this steel is (basically the first hypereutectoid stainless to eliminate chromium carbides). Makers need to be explicitly told that this stuff escapes the toughness/hardness tradeoff parameters of the high-alloy stainless steels that they are familiar with.
"The benefit to magnacut is that it matches the toughness and wear-resistance of non-stainless steels like 4V and therefore puts us in a new category for stainless steels. It can be heat treated to higher hardness for enhanced edge stability for more acute edges, better cutting ability, and better edge retention without sacrificing toughness when compared with previous stainless steels, or kept at a more conservative hardness when raw toughness is desired." - 11:33
This is an important quote to me in this video because there is this prevailing myth going around that MagnaCut is tougher at it's maximum hardness, as if there is any steel where you get something for nothing.
I feel fortunate to be making knives when there is so much quantifiable information regarding HT for each steel. Compare our knowledge level today to what was known when "Practical Blacksmithing" was published over 100 years ago, and you will thank every Knife Steel Nerd who advanced our community knowledge base. Thank you, sir!
Amazing that some steels made centuries ago still measure up, but the proprietary information stayed with families, not corporations, and some formulas stayed the same for several decades and reasonably near the original for centuries.
Kind of feel like mass production essentially killed that, but glad to see small batch production runs making a comeback.
There is some serious knowledge in this video, not just for MagnaCut. Thanks for putting all this information out Larrin!
What Cedric & Ada demonstrated in with the Spyderco Magnacut Mule was unbelievable. I think that's what a lot of people are going to want their EDC knives to achieve. I'm super happy with my outdoor knives in Cruwear.
I need a cruwear flipper.
@@anthonycapo1998protec malibu
You could, rather trivially I might add, make a knife in a low edge retention high toughness steel like AEBL that could score in a similar range to 10v on his "edge retention test" if you gave it suitable heat treat and geometry for the very specifically odd task of being able to slice a lot of abrasive rope and still being able to cleanly slice copy paper. BUT. if you had to select the best steels to use for a such a test, Magnacut is right up there. Anything that can get hard enough to take a nice thin geometry and still be tough enough to resist clipping.
very good, the Magnacut I've made are at around 62.5 RC and I (and the customers) have been happy with this
Customers actually use them and have something to compare too? I just don't like to hear that the customer is happy when more than half don't use them or use them in such a weak capacity that they would have been fine with 14c28n or whatever.
I just don't like this argument that you used. Cause it doesn't have any data and is used to shill for someone.
th-cam.com/video/nwRW-7itYJc/w-d-xo.html
I'm a chemist...and I still struggled...will watch at least 2 more times...sooooo much information
Love the video!! What you did with the edge impact test is what I was attempting to do on the forum a while back. Thanks for the knowledge.
Thank you for the video! You’re doing your best to keep all the miss information at bay,
and you are the best man for the job!
This video is packed with tons of info, I’ll definitely be watching this video more than once.
Thanks for the awesome video on this subject, especially the relationship between edge geometry and hardness
Larrin, you're the man! You make this stuff easy to understand, & you give a lot of info in a short time. Thanks so much for everything you do!
I love how entertaining this is as well as being very informative. Thanks for all the data collecting and excellent articulation during the narration.
Great video Larrin. I especially appreciated the video of austenite forming martensite. Excellent visual!
Thank you for breaking this all down in an easy to understand way.
I had been waiting for a response like this after seeing several posts and videos on the matter. Thanks for dropping the education and dispelling the myths.
Epic video Larrin. Appreciate all your contributions to the knife-maker community.
Such a valuable source ok knowledge for everyone! Thanks a lot for your work!
Thanks for taking the time to put this video up great amount of information I kind of had it figured that most production company's were going to be in that 60 to 62hrc for the toughness aspect and only in customs were you going to have that 63 to 65hrc and at a thinner geometry that I personally tend to like but that is preference as you mentioned. Thank you again for the video tremendous amount of helpful information.
Love this video and love this channel! So much easier to understand the science of all things blade steel when its video form and the metalurgist is laying it all out for us
Man, my nerdy brain was massaged with so much technical information. I love this and getting a little more understanding, even if I’m don’t make or work with a knives.
I have your book and it changed a lot of misconceptions I had about HRC, tuffness and edge retention. Reading it is like drinking from a fire hose so I have reread it here and there it get it to stick in my head. It’s the kind of book I love with high information density and not a lot of fluff
I would highly recommend this book to knife makers or anyone who wants to get a good grip on the steel industry and specifics on the steels available.
should be required reading for anyone who wants to talk shop about knives or "steels" online. The mythology in knife land gets tedious asf.
For real, this book is so informational, I cant believe the value:price ratio it offers. I'm learning so so much from it in terms of practical knowledge. Amazing.
Awesome! Thank you for providing quality free knowledge 🙏
Thank you very much Larrin. Excellent video that goes well past 'Best hardness for MagnaCut'.
Looks like S45VN is a great steel. Seems as though S30V is also a really good steel. Glad I didn’t shit can my old knives!
This video was awesome you always do such a great job explaining everything that in such detail. I will definitely be sharing this video 👌
As an amateur/hobbyist knife-maker, I love your videos man. Thank you!
thank you Larrin. Great video
Thank you Larrin. This video is amazing
always very very interesting to see the results of your research larrin
Not just great info, but well put in a way I can absorb. Thanks so much
Congrats Larrin! Absolutely amazing summary on the topic! It boils down the essentials of entire books on what's important for knife makers 🙌
Greatly informative video on the complexities of blade steels and the many (MANY) variables that affect performance. Thank you for sharing your wisdom. 🙏
Agreed! PS both my Magnacut knives came from you! I really like your service!
Thank you for the hard work put into this video. New subscriber!
Excellent overview not just of Magnacut but it's general considerations for most steels.
Watching this video several times and taking lots of notes
One of the best informative knife vids out there. Well done Mr. Thomas. This is a great summary of parts of your book. I gave sharpening and knife info lessons yesterday and this would came in handy to explain a lot of the topics I talked about. I work for J.A. Henckels and would love to bring this info into the laboratory in Solingen.
Uhh that's awesome! I'm a zwilling man. Have a kanren chef knife on order right now. I have a question if you don't mind: do you research blade geometry, such as flat vs full flat, convex, s Grind etc? This seems to be a highly neglected area for kitchen knives.
This video is amazing. It explains a lot of complex ideas (to me the noob at least) in an easy to understand way. Great usage of visuals to support the data as well. Thanks!
Would love to hear your take on 1. the factors going into a knife with the longest lasting fine edge, and 2. an explanation of what underlies the bitey, sticky, crisp, or whatever term you choose edge that is spoken of often..
Very informative and interesting. Also a good explanation on why most companies prefer lower hc #'s even if they are doing a quality ht.
I know you like to stay objective, but it’d be the Cherry on top for you to layout at the end applications for different HRC’s. Example: For a moderate use folding knife X heat treatment + geometry I think would be ideal because ____. I realize you’re a metallurgist not a blade smith, but as someone who is neither, that’s something I’d enjoy. Great video, can’t wait to get some Magnacut in my hands
I'm excited to say I recently picked up a white River fc3.5 in Magnacut. It's at a 61-62 RC, and I'm eager to put it to work. So far, I'm impressed with it. I've profiled it to 18.5 degrees per side.
Great video! The only thing it lacks is a bit of historical perspective that shows just how extraordinary these new steels are. It was only a decade or two ago if you wanted toughness, you had to deal with rust, and 62 hardness for production knife blades was only possible with high-speed steels. Now, we have a slew of incredibly balanced performance steels that offer what used to be the ultimate in every performance parameter. Now we have a steel that provides 63-64 edge wear in its "SWEET SPOT" for toughness, AND its stainless! You have to have loved a knife made of 52100 or 440C, to really appreciate these new steels. They are incredible.
Thanks for the great video and information about MagnaCut.
Great video can’t wait to get my hands on a magnacut knife!
Another great video mate ,thank you
I have a bark river knife in MagnaCut, i have no complaints, good steel, easy to sharpen and the carbides hold well.
Excellent video! I learned a lot thanks!
This video was very informative. Thank you. 😊
First, great video
-Shawn
Thanks for the awesome info! Well said! 👊🏼
Saved video for future reference. Very well done
U are a TRUE genius in this field of metallurgy... thank you for all u do... but most of all thank you for making it available to the public
Thank you once again for a very informative video 🤟
I was on the fence about getting the launch 15 because almost everyone that talked about it ultimately criticized the 60-62 hrc as a deal breaker and I was partly dissuaded because of this but hearing this info from the man himself puts me at ease
That was extremely informative, thank you !
Very nice of you to take time to talk about the subject. I find the So called supersteels in certain tasks useful, they are good to have if skinning game for example or cutting meat large amounts.
Still far north the climate is unfortunately during harsh Winter - 22 to - 58 Fahrenheit. - 30 to-50'Celsius cold. The toughness and strenght of the blade is more relevant in extreme cold conditions because the blade become brittle and snaps easily if the steel is not able to bend and withstand blows while chopping wood with a Leuku. The construction of a puukko differs also from a full Skeleton fulltang knife which is something to keep in mind. You dont want to Touch metal when the Temperature drops to minus 30' - 50 Celsius. The skin sticks to the metal and rips youre skin off youre Fingers and the palm of youre hand. The wooden Cover also insulates the long Tang inside the handle. If the puukko is made with old traditional methods, the whole Tang goes through the handle All the way. Its pretty useless to try to explain how its done and I havent talked to anyone who knows that there are others besides me who does it the long and very time consuming way to it by hand. When its done properly I keep them all myself usually, sometimes I give one for Christmas as a present for my family and dear close friends. The whole process takes 3-5 months. Selling any of my fulltang puukkos has not crosses my mind.
Its just too much work for to be Sold.
So I choose very carefully the knife steel because the all materials are the best there is and I dont spare any expences ever. What I do worry is that if I would use some New supersteel it would be a skinning knife or puukko. If I make a puukko for General use it has to actually work in all weather conditions hot or cold or moist. The usual steels are tougher steels like Aeb-L, 80crv2, 14% chromium steels, now I have been considering making a puukko from 15n20 steel.
If the conditions are extreme cold its not an option to choose supersteels that have not been tested in real life situations for atleast 6 months preferably a year.
Just the time used in making a proper puukko takes so long that local puukko Masters dont choose to use new steels because the older basic steels have a long succesful rate for surviving in dead cold conditions without breaking, decades.
I kinda am interested if the So called supersteels have any Chance of performing better?
The thought that Magnacut or Elmax would be better is naturally been laughed at by national knife makers.
I understand the sceptism, but I if Magnacut puukkos are never tested during Winter time, no one really knows, does the blade survive or not?
It would need to survive winter
Batoning firewood and skinning large game, opening cans, making fire, food prepping, wood work.
I have been thinking that this would be a real life science project, I have been trying to find a Magnacut blade with a fishtail Tang without succes.
I wonder if there would be a possibility even in theory that Magnacut would survive a winter test if heattreated 59-60 hrc and made a blade suitable for a leuku, fishtang as long as 13-15cm with a 180mm cutting edge if the thickness would be 3,5 to 4,2 mm? And 40 - 47mm tall blade?
It would be quite fun to prove wrong the traditional puukko artesans.
I wonder if there would be suitable Magnacut blade for this project?
amazing content, lots to digets here, there are so many confounding factors
Another great, informative video. Thank you. Now I just need to come up with a couple designs for this bar of Magnacut in my drawer. Hmmm. 🤔
What a great time to be a pocket knife enthusiast! You’ve tipped the scales with Magnacut. Nothing else will ever do until Magnacut 2! My Sebenza Small 31 and my Pro Tech Runt 5 are both Magnacut! Thanks for your work!
Not sure about Magnacut 2, but for sure variants which offer a different balance are likely in the future. The EDC world would likely be more interested in a higher edge retention variant whereas the OG has the kind of good toughness at high hardness that comes as a premium in high performaing kitchen cutlery (at 64 rc it's as tough as AEBL, with much more edge retention) and a toughness necessity in hunting type knives with the added luxury of being highly resistant to corrosion. Small little pocket knives do fine with lower toughness steels stuff like m390 which is what I'd suspect the next variant of magnacut will likely be about.. That's what the end users want, they're all overly obsessed with "edge retention." RIP to m390.
I agree, a second version of magnacut should go higher abrasion resistance for edcs. The current one seems perfect for fixed blades.
For some reason TH-cam likes to auto play this video for me and every time I end up watching or listening to it all the way through. That said, each time I pick up something new that I missed before. I know the videos are a lot of work for you but man Larrin they are valuable either as a stand alone or more so when paired with all your other work on the site! Furthermore, I’m really enjoying the new book!
I love your explanation. Magnacut has been a great steel so far - tested on a lionsteel M4 with regrind. Also dig your taste in music - grim fandango ost ftw!
AEB-L looks great on the HRC + toughness graph at 60-61 hrc. Makes sense my local forge uses it so much for kitchen knives
Fascinating stuff, thank you
Thank you for such a helpful video even for a non knife maker.
Fascinating. Thank you!
It always amazes me how some people who just don't know; well , you just can't tell 'em.... Even if you developed the steel and have tested it extensively... and have the best of interest in the success of it. Truly remarkable.
Really excellent video!
This is likely the single most dense, thorough, informative, fact based and useful/helpful, well thought out video on the whole general topic of knives, steels, edges, cutting geometry and all that jazz. Speaking of jazz I'd guess the soundtrack was deliberate and that was fantastic as well. This video is a metaphorical mic drop on an ecosystem that was struggling with rational and empirical deficiencies for a long time coming. If I ran a knife forum, which I don't because I'm not only lazy but also not a masochist, I'd mandate every single user to review the contents of this video as many times as they needed to in order to pass an examination before they could comment on certain topics. I'd bet that cut down on mod time quite a bit.
Excellent video! I came for the cutting edge (pun intended) knife knowledge but stayed for the jazz😁
Great video with some outstanding information! I learned a ton!⚡️🎩🇺🇸
A lot of great information!!!
As with everything,,, it's always a balance!
What you said at the end of the video is key.
I first thought to myself when I saw that White River had a special run of the M1 knife in Magnacut at 59-60 Rockwell, that that's way too low! They aren't anywhere near the wear resistance/toughness sweet points for this steel.
Then I watched this video and it is what you say, as long as they have taken the proper steps during heat treat, it should end up being a tough and (truly) stainless steel.
That's way too low for Magnacut I would rather have a good Cruwear at 63_64 I just don't understand why all makers can't get the Magnacut right across the board
@@sterlingstoots3215 You know more than the maker of the steel? Who just said, in this video that you're commenting on, that 58-60 HRC on magnacut is still good? How it got there is more important than what HRC it lands on
I think the issue is that we can never really know if a heat treatment was good or not. Hrc is just a tiny indicator. But if something is outside of the expected range, the chance is at least higher that the heat treatment is not optimal.
Thanks for the video, Larrin. What excited me about Magnacut in the first place was that it seemingly could function as a stainless replacement for 4V/Cru-Wear-type steels. I'm sure Magnacut at lower hardnesses isn't bad, but I'm not very interested in it at 60/61 HRC and wouldn't want 4V/Cru-Wear at that hardness either.
Thank you for providing sources 🗡
Such great information. I love learning this stuff. My dad was a metallurgist, so I feel my like for this field is in my blood not to mention I worked in engineering most of my life. The only thing I'd alter in producing at least this video is, your voice sound level is competing with your background music sound level and the music sound level is distracting attention to what you're saying. Speaking as a school teacher with a BS in education, I'd either lower the music sound level or get rid of it.
This video would have saved me so much misconception when I was younger. I knew most of this stuff (except for the waiting factor/austenite stabilization before cryo), but that's because I lurked Bladeforums for a decade, did cut tests, and got an mse degree. This will help so many aspiring knifemakers.
I have a magnacut outdoor blade at 62.5-63 hrc and a chef knife at 63-64 both perform very very good. Couldnt be more happy with magnacut especially when seeing how thin i can take the edge. My chef knife is 5-8 per side to 10-16 inclusive and has not had any problems at all. My outdoor is around 15 per side and has not has any problems either
May I ask what chef knife you bought? I would love a goof magnacut 8" chef, but I haven't found much.
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 booth are customs 🙂
@@knifesharpeningnorway from what maker? Or did you make them yourself?
@@thorwaldjohanson2526 no from my american friend aaron johnson. He only makes knives for friends.
Perfect. Thank you
Great video !
Great video 🤘
the retained austenite part might be why I find my 20cv knife relatively normal to sharpen rather than difficult, maybe it was just a good heat treatment
Old habits die hard in every industry. When I worked in the automotive industry I talked to so many guys who thought that newer oils like 0w-20 or 0w-16 oil were too thin for any car and couldn't be trusted even when it was the specified oil for a given car.
Thank you
Great info man
While experience is valuable, it doesn't take long before you realise that just because someone sounds convincing, they might not actually understand why what they are saying is wrong.
Meaning, I very much appreciate your evidence based approach to these subjects. I find the data itself as interesting as its application to actually making knives.
Cheers mate
Great Vid , Thanks Brother ! Juhvon sent me over !
Very good. Thanks
Great video Dr. T. Keep them coming. I have both of your books and have read 'The Story Of Knife Steel' four times now. I learn more every time I read it.
Really useful, informative video. Thank you.
One suggestion: the serious, edgy jazz in the background makes it significantly more difficult to concentrate on your words, especially when things get technical.
Thank You.
Crucible Industries cuts blanks for knife makers and they do the heat treat too. So much of the semi custom market has perfect heat treating in these boutique steels. Bark river comes to mind.
I do wish Bark River would treat their Cruwear knives to over 60 HRC (maybe 62?). It seems like at 60 HRC you'd be better off sticking with 3V, but maybe I'm still missing something. I probably need to find better graphs comparing the two with overlapping hardness - I just hope they're not being too conservative with that one.
Fantastic information! So much better than the bro science I'm used to 😆
For people who have no time to watch the whole video, skip to 29:38 for the summary 😀
Thank you 💯
Great video 👍
YAHOOOO WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR THIS!!!
with the megapixel Wars it was/is worse than just optics. smart phone camera sensors they often just blow up the outputted scan; like upscaling a smaller photo in photoshop, [or hardening steels to the detriment of toughness]. So your comparison between cameras and HRC is brilliant. lol
I've reached saturation. I bought Knife Engineering way before The first research smelt of CPM Magnacut. S35VN was my favorite. I hated S30V and D2 and thought my preferences were dialed in. This last Summer I got Mule Team in SPY27 and Magnacut. I am by no means a steel snob or even a complete nerd geeking on alloys because there's so much more to think about, availability to say the least. My Condor Wayfinder is great user, but I put it in a log stump point first one time and broke one or two mm of the tip without a fast sinking or hard push and zero flex while doing it.
So I can cut most of what I want and my knives hold up, but wanting to see remarkable or measurable improvement I study. But now I have two much information to decide and process. First I give up on one knife doing it all. No one steel, thermal cycle protocol or blade geometry would do over 70% of a days tasks and then there's the days of carrying the knife but not using it that day. I guess I'm thinking of the other people whose knife can do more than any of mine and I don't want to miss out on anything!
My fantasy is having a fixed blade knife and sheath system where I can cut tomato, cut a tin can to make it flat to patch a structure or cover a hole, open a six foot chain link fence, create an entry in a steel building wall and chop Barb wire line. I guess just wanting the balance that Magnacut has the most of WITH corrosion resistance is not going to answer that fantasy. Knives, nay I, myself cannot do everything I want till laser swords are affordable.
Guess I might list out what I want and prioritize them and look to make that happen.
Watching the second time helped! Lower hardness of matrix but with more Vanadium Carbides means more lasting state of sharpness.
Love this vid... and confirms that my loved AEB-L is awesome... I mean, sure, it has lower edge retention that the hi tech steels, but the hardness and thoughness are up there, and it cost 1/5 of the fancy steels
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