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I feel like a good portion of us, myself included, go through a sort of character arc when it comes to knives. We first start learning about knife steels, and we're okay with the "budget" stuff. Then our taste gets more and more expensive and soon we become steel snobs. Then we start realizing that knife steels are no where near as important as we thought it was, that there are so many other things that make a knife great and that it's not always about edge retention. Finally we make it to the end and have the same ideology MC explained in this video where you just buy what you like and let other people buy what they like. lol
Late comment, but I just went through it myself. Passed up a nice Hogue off of someone because I thought 154CM wasn't good enough and spent the money on an M390 knife online. Love the thing, but I'm still not good at sharpening. Ended up continuing to carry my old budget knife, which uses 440C. Funny how that works.
Yeah, sort of. I kinda realized early on that s30v or s45vn works perfectly for me, and I have no trouble sharpening it, so I never went full steel snob. If you use and sharpen your knives, you quickly realize ergonomics, blade profile, and sharpenability are more important
You have no idea how happy i am to hear someone like you, who has influence, say that about Blade steel. There are people slamming Chris Reeve for not using M390 or S90V and completely overlooking the detail and craftsmanship. And, Oh yea....The ability to sharpen your own knife!
I’m a long time CRK fanboy and I would never buy another CRK if they switched to something like M390. Thankfully, they know who their base is, and that we’re looking for stable blades we can use hard when we need to.
I'm using my knife on job site cutting all sorts of stuff. If i can't afford to loose it, or sharpen it with my small fallkniven stone it's of no value to me.
I’ve been looking for confirmation like this about the Joker Nomad with N695. Thanks for making such an awesome video with a few sheets of paper. Well done
We have gone from utilizing how valuable something is to ourselves, to worrying about what value it has to someone else. This is YOUR collection or hobby, being bought with YOUR money. Who cares what someone else thinks, do it for whatever reason brings you joy, I have a buddy that is trying to buy 1 of every animal named knife (1 knife per animal), want to talk about a crapshoot of knives from a materialistic standpoint, but each one brings him the same joy so who cares what someone else thinks. Much Love MC , this video was 100% needed, we need to learn our self values again!!
I've tried opening a few Amazon boxes without a blade of any kind and... If that's what it's designed for, it's designed poorly lol. Those thing are *at least* going to need some teeth.
I love m390, I love my knives in m390, would I still love those same knives in a different steel? Absolutely, it’s the total package that generally makes a great knife. Having said that, I have fantastic luck with m390, I feel like it holds that “just sharpened” edge a bit longer, plus I don’t wait till it gets really dull before I touch it up and generally I get away with just a good strop with green compound.
I just bought a Sebenza in S35VN with black micarta inlays, and it's one of the greatest knives I've ever handled. Not because of the steel, but because of the way the knife's put together. I'm so impressed with it, I've ordered a Macassar Ebony inlay Sebenza (in S45VN now) from Chris Reeve directly.
for a my Hinderer ek 3.5,its just the same😂"425 dollars for a s45vn".just don't give a fuck about others' words,i can use my money to buy the knives i like instead of buying the knives others think highly of😊
I remember when s30v was all the rage and now a lot of people 💩 all over it like its "stainless steel" from a gas station knife. I prefer budget and mid range steels on my users like a lot of others here have said. Excellent video!
I like S30V and VG-10. I have a couple knives with 20CV and S90V. Honestly, I haven't done much of anything with them as far as being able to report on their edge holding capability. Great video. 👍
I’m so glad someone is making a video covering this topic. One of my favorite knives uses 14c28n. It’s a pretty cool steel, and the knife is really well made and under $60
My personal favorite steels (that I actually own and use) are D2, 14C28N, CTSBD1, 154CM, s30v, and s35vn. I also haven't spent more than about $150 on a single knife.
My EDC is an S45VN Sebenza and I love the steel. It's really easy to strop it when it gets a bit dull instead of doing a full sharpening every time. However, I use M390 and 20CV at work. Three reasons for that: 1. I need the best edge retention possible because I can be at work for more than a month at a time, and my KME system stays at home. 2. I sweat like crazy, so corrosion is a concern with less stainless steels. 3. Toughness isn't much of a concern because we carry other tools for prying and cutting hard materials if needed. I don't particularly like sharpening M390 and 20CV though because it takes a lot longer than S45VN.
I agree. As a daily user I prefer well balanced steels like Cruwear or S35VN. At work I like to carry S110V for the reasons you mentioned, it's stainless, holds an edge for a long time and pretty easy to strop back.
@@Stahlwerk88 my standard shift is 48hrs, but the longest I've been at work continuously is 58 days. That still doesn't hold a candle to our military though, I couldn't do a year or more at a time.
The more I use M390 the more I dislike it. I work landscape construction and beat on my knives a lot and ease of sharpening is very important to me. For me steels like S35VN and even 1095 have been awesome and way more preferable for the majority of tasks than M390 because they're way easier for me to sharpen.
@@richardsimmons6526 it depends on what you're using it for. I've cut sod (around some curbing) with m30 and the wear on the blade is far greater than what 40 seconds of stropping with fix. In situations like that the difference in edge retention between m390 and aus8 is almost meaningless because everything will dull just as fast when you run it though rocks and dirt. I'd take ease of sharpening in that scenario. I realize not everybody does this on a daily basis, but that's also the point of the video.
@@hinklehymer6893 sod does do a number on blades in a hurry. Cut paper against a steel bar when I forget were my utility knife went and the rex45 strops back to hair popping pretty fast.
After the cost of making the steel the cost of wear from machining and finishing the steel can add a lot to the end cost too. Stuff like Maxamet has you going through way more end mills, bits, and grit material than 440C. I can't remember if you mentioned heat treat (I'm sure you did) but a proper heat treat and whether or not you have to outsource to get it can make a noticeable difference in the cost of a blade. I've seen it mentioned that Sal Glesser said that maxamet is really rough on the machines and it's why Spyderco is one of the few companies working with it.
I come from a kitchen knife collection background and I am just getting into folding knives. The thing that shocked me the most was people with this mentality (seems to be more prevalent in this community).
This is actually a great problem to have. I still remember the days when there was essentially no choice when it came to blade steel. Personally, I'm so sick of M390/20CV/204P. Ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance have become my preferred features in a steel. I'm a big fan of Vanax. Sadly it's one of the hardest to come by and could probably be considered Supremium™.
I think the golden age was about 5 years ago. There were tons of steels being used giving variety. ZT came out with maxamet and vamax35 and had production knives in elmax, s30v, s35vn, and m390. Kershaw was throwing SG2, cpm154, s30v, bdz1, cpm d2, and m4 knives out. Spyderco was using the cool laminated super blue and their many sprint para2 runs. Now, other than limited editions, which seem to be less prevalent it's all standardized. Manufacturers just use like 2-3 steels for their whole lineup.
@@brenp403 🤷🏼♂️ maybe you are right. I was kinda going off of what the community in general thinks. I hear 154 called budget . I don't agree with that. I fell into the m390 20cv s90 is better no matter what. I have learned for my use I like 154 and s35 because I use my knives so much ,no matter what steel it is I have 2 sharpen fairly often. I just love how easy the more" mid grade" steels are 2 maintain and or sharpen. I still love the other steels. I only have one knife with xhp and I am super happy with it. I think it's a problem when people think if a knife doesn't have m390 or magnacut it's not good. Would love 2 hear what steels you like and why.
FINALLY. Someone daring to stand against the Super Steel Mafia. I salute you for your message, and your bravery for talking about this. I am of the mindset that a knife can't always be determined by certain factors. Different knives serve different uses. A C70 carbon steel traditional knife may be 1000 times more valuable to someone then some "Timascus framelock". Some people want corrosion ressistance as their main benifit in a steel. Some may want edge retention. Some may want a surgical steel that gets REALLY sharp, REALLY fast. Some may even want old school carbon. Like a knife itself, value is determined on what we choose to view as valuable. Nothing can ever change that. A SAK may be perfect to some folks, a Buck 119 to another. There is no super steel that will make a Case collector stop buying Case. A knife is only as valuable as we view it to be. Steel is just one of many factors to determine what we see as an ideal knife. Great video. I agree completely.
I'm going to add onto this, a knife with proper geometry for the task at hand in any left column steel is better than a knife with poor blade geometry for the task in the right column steels.
so the demands of the U.S. postal service are on par with those of the military? Ill be sure to thank my mailman for their service. Ive taken them for granted for far too long :(
@@teddyperkins3406 As a former marine, I can tell you the post office does a whole lot more to make your day to day life better. Maybe you should consider thanking them...
If you're no longer a marine than you're no longer a marine. Make sure you use past tense. I don't care what anyone says, when you're done that title doesn't stay with you forever. And I can't stand any of you military guys cause you constantly have this dire need to announce that you were in the military cause you're all so desperate for attention.
@@WheresWaldo05 Once a Marine, always a Marine. The mission is certainly different. I don't have to carry AK bar fighting knife but I carry a Spyderco PM2 instead.
I met a young woman who realized through seeing my Spyderco on my pocket I was a knife collector . She had started her own collection and wanted me to come by and see her knives . Her eyes lit up showing me her collection . I smiled and complimented her new found hobby. Her knives were all flashy Chinese knives. What brings you JOY is what's important ! What worked for me as a truck Driver cutting rope , cardboard , Plastic and whatever ? VG10 Spyderco was my favorite work knife .A Damn good knife .Great working steel .
I've always thought two kinds of ways about this. First, I remember when bark river "accidentally" had a knife or two that was labeled 20CV, but in reality, was almost certainly A2 - honest mistake or not, it makes you wonder. I know there's been other instances of things like that but that's what comes to mind. Far and away the easiest way to spot something like that is corrosion resistance, and that's what tipped that off, but for most stainless folding knives, that wouldn't be an option. Say s30V vs M390 - most of us aren't in a corrosive enough environment that we'd really notice that. Long and short, I think steel is so incredibly overhyped in knives it's ridiculous, but I also wonder how much anyone would even know the difference between s30v and m390 if it wasn't labeled. Yes I know half the people reading this are sharpening experts and know how different steels feel under their stones, etc... but I wonder if you were given 5 unmarked blades and 5 steels and not told which was which how accurate your assessment would be. And people reading this are in the 1% of the knife world that know about this stuff. It is amazing how much we trust the maker to give us the advertised steel, especially when that information is almost impossible for us to verify in many instances on the end-user level. The other thing that's probably even more important - the material makeup/chemical composition of the steel is one thing - that's what most people look at when they see steels and try to differentiate performance differences. In truth, probably even more important is the heat treat of those steels. All S30v is not created equal. All m390 is not created equal. All D2 is not created equal. I would rather a company work exclusively with a given steel and extensively push the boundaries of what's possible with heat treat and cryo than have them jump into some new wonder steel and not do that work. Heat treat is so incredibly important, and not nearly enough questions are asked about it. Most people see m390 and think that's that - they don't even stop to ask where it came from and who heat treated it, and how extensive the manufacturer's experience with that steel is. There's no real point to all of this. Good vid - got me reminiscing about this stuff.
I in the past I bought into the steel hype. Don’t get me wrong there are steels that are better than others. As I learned more about knives , sharpening , grinds and use I now buy a knife on geometry first then ergos and design. In the last year I have bought a few knives in 8cr because it was well built and I liked the design. Quess what ? They work great at cutting stuff. Maybe they dull a little quicker than more premium Steel but it’s not like you use it once and it won’t cut through hot butter like some act. Buy what you like !
I know I’m a little late to the game on this one but I got some reasonable advice from my uncle several years back before he passed away, god rest his sole!! He worked for GE Aviation as an engineer for about 30 years and in doing so he worked with a lot of high end alloys. So I had a conversation with him about some of those alloys and he told me that 95% of people carrying pocket knives with higher end “super alloy” blade steel were never going to see enough of a difference to make a difference. Well I have to say after years of carrying knives I think he might be right!! After about the 14C28N line I can’t really work a knife hard enough to tell a real measurable difference. Now I’m talking mostly about poket sized folders and some of your every day carry sized fixed blades, cause I actually carried a fixed blade for a long time as well. Now you might be able to tell a difference if you really aim to go out and sort of destructively test knives until they fail or at least the usable part of the cutting edge fails!! But let’s be real 95% of us who edc a knife don’t have that kind of time or for that matter the desire to go to that kind of extreme!! I mean in terms of knife steel I absolutely love a good heat treated cpm154 and I can say without hesitation it has done everything I needed it to do. Don’t get me wrong I own some knives in 20CV, S30V, M390, and honestly my 14C28N and CPM154 knives have held right there with them for most standard edc tasks.
Sorta new here, read a lot about metals already, etc and this video helped me be more decisive and happy with the choices I make as far as the overall knife and the intended uses. I was getting too stuck on steel only so to speak. Thanks!
I bought a knife made of M390 because I didn’t want it to rust on the boat, and I wanted a nice knife. I had no idea it was a premium steel, and that there was such controversy over these things... lol.
This is my favourite one of your "commentary on the knife community" videos ever. I love the pieces of paper and how they were used, as well as the points you were making As a guy who genuinely prefers s45VN to 20CV in almost all use cases, I'm definitely going to like this video regardless, but I still think it was *especially* well done :)
I think there’s a misunderstanding about where the value is, a buyer’s expectations, and what is required of the owner to reap the rewards of a premium. Premium steels aren’t just harder to machine, they’re vastly more expensive to machine… they wear and chip bits/cutters much more rapidly, the feed speed is slower (so then is daily production), they shag finishing belts much quicker, the heat treat processes are often more complicated and time consuming to extract the very best attributes (otherwise, why bother, right) and finally they’re more labor intensive to sharpen. The value built into the blade is manifested as noticeably better edge retention and/or toughness and its wholly appreciated by those of us who can (properly) razor-edge our dulled elmax or m390 blades in just a minute or two on a Ken Onion without buggering up the edge or chewing on the handle or scratching the side of the blade. “Premium” steels aren’t really for those who have not yet paid their dues practicing sharpening, or those who like to cut staples in cardboard boxes or who like digging in the rocks. My personal favorites… zdp189 folders, elmax hiking/camping/hunting fixed blades when I need it to hold a keen edge for a few days, 3v hard use fixed blades with sharpening options available, A2 and 1095 long term survival blades as they can be kept razor sharp with only a strop and Tormek paste (3v too if you’re determined and take your time).
M390 is overhyped, and pushed to market by non knife users demands; S90V is tougher and has way better edge retention. Folding cutlery, being primarily for … cutting, I think edge retention and edge stability should be the focus. S90V > M390 and really should be the celebrated “super steel”. If you can put corrosion resistance aside, then tool steels offer a much better combination of edge stability, toughness, and edge retention. We as a community always have to be chasing the newest trends, especially in steels. We have had access to some of the greatest performing steels on folders, but we still need something new. Also…Geometry cuts.
I definitely like corrosion resistance over mostly everything else, I can deal with sharpening but having to clean up rust is a pain. so most of my favorite steels are n690, s35vn, m390, cpm3v(coated), and vg-10.
154CM baby!!! The N690CO (*NOT N690) on my Steel will Gekko Mini is amazing, it takes a laser edge relatively easily and has good edge retention. I’ve got D2 on a freakin $550 Medford Infraction! Who cares! Haha.
This a a great point MC most people need to use their knives and determine which steels work best for them. They need to look at their daily use and determine which attributes are best for them. For a hard working tradesman who is hard on his knives M390 is an awful choice as it will most likely chip but Cruwear or 3v may be perfect for them. Another factor is who makes it, how are their heat treats, geometry and ergonomics. An 8cr at 8 thousandths behind the edge will cut M390 at 40 thousandths all day.
This was made VERY apparent for me here recently. I work at a smoke shop here in the Nashville area, and had this older gentleman come in. We shot the shit for about 15-20 minutes and noticed a Microtech Untratech on his belt, he also pulls out a TwoSun, and my god I have to have one... Titanium frame lock with 14c28n. Freaking perfect
Thanks. I agree with your logic. I'm amused by "perceived" value of different knife steels. For example, folks who live in the desert and value corrosion resistance, or those who value toughness, but would never use the timascus draped collector for those days of fence repair. EDC and daily user work knives definitely require a different mindset (and steel) than used on a $1200 Shirogorov.
When I bought my first Microtech (Ultratech) earlier this month, I went out of my way to get one in Elmax (rather than M390), because I wanted the extra toughness.
You are so correct! I felt myself getting sucked down the steel-lined rabbit hole. Then one day, I was making some feather sticks. And what steel was I using? A fixed blade with its cheap, outdated, and antiquated 1095. The other thing that occurred to me was that most of my folding knives are budget to mid-quality steel. But I have one S30V, one BD1N, one K390, and one El Max. And what did I realize? Other than the K390 (which is tiny and lives in my 5th pocket), the other knives with above-average steel sit in a drawer, shiny and unmarred. Why? So I started carrying the premium steel knives in rotation. So far, no conclusions compared to budget steel knives in daily use. But I’m out of the rabbit hole and feeling much better.
When I see the debates on steel I am reminded of the great Stereo "Spec" wars of the 1970s. IT was all about the "specs" and not much about the overall design aspects. Many people would be hard pressed to hear the difference between various components, but the purists would test some big brand name and declare it better. And this is they way I see steel. For most people the steel should take a back seat to the overall design, ergonomics, operation, and esthetics. I have a $20 Ganzo Firebird G-lock that I enjoy using more than some knives that cost 10 times as much. The steel is 440C and I would declare that I could go 99 days out of 100 and never feel like the knife should have better steel. Now my EDC is a Bugout aluminum but I would rather have had a "lesser" steel at a lower price, but that is the way the knife comes. I prefer it over the Ganzo because it is so light and thin that it disappears in my pocket, while the Ganzo feels heavy and bulky by comparison. I could have been happy with VG 10 if they would have offered the Bugout with aluminum scales at a price maybe like $160.
I was on the steel hype train until about a year ago when i started actually tracking my real world results and 154cm quickly became my favorite steel. It is too humid where i live for things like m4, 20cv/m390 chip too easily for what i do, and maxamet is just too damn hard to sharpen. Sure there are things that i can change to make them work, but to what extent is it practical for me in the real world. Give me a well balanced steel any day of the week over a specialty steel for daily use.
@@michaelwilson3418 In that case you should give magnacut a shot when it comes out on your favorite knife. it's like an upgraded S35VN, sort of an all-rounder steel. it's very exciting
154cm would be my highest I would go on edge retention. I love steels that give good edge life but are easy to sharpen. And good corrosion resistance. 👍
@@daveyboy6985 I understand that completely. I see people all the time that talk about edge retention as though it's the only thing that matters. To me it is important its just not the only thing i look for. I own knives in 20cv, m390, 204p, Elmax, Maxamet, Rex 121, and K390 but they are just not my favorite steels.
I have no problem with D2 especially on my budget knives that are $20-60 it’s great. But when I see a knife $150 using D2 it’s hard for my brain to get over the fact that I feel it should be less since all my D2 knives are cheaper.
I owned a ZT with S30V and posted it once and got a lot of negative comments about how there are better steels. When I bought that knife it was top of the line and I have abused that knife and it still cuts well and is in good condition.
I get a power strop, hard leather wheel, mounted to a bench grinder with white buffing compound and man its impossible to have a dull anything, it mirror polishes all steel and i love my 20cv kershaw. Keeps it hair splitting sharp in 10 seconds per side
As a metallurgist I can confirm you can turn any steel to cow poo! Also a good heat treatment can develop exceptional properties. So the steel really is not everything. The art matters.
Great vid on the psychology of knife collecting, and how we think and compare, particularly since most collectors don't use or sharpen a blade enough to realize advantages of one steel over another. Again, it's a mind game that's likely at the heart of collecting most anything. Careful that we don't fall prey to our own over thinking, comparing, and virtual "slicing and dicing." 👍😁🗡️
Blade shape and geometry have more to do with function than anything else. Steel choice is about longevity, environment, and ease of use/preferences. Just my 2 cents. Like the vid. Long time user and collector
My most carried knife (I carry it every day) is a GEC slip joint with 440c. I use it a ton and love the 440c because it’s easy to maintain and stainless. You don’t need to have a “super steel” to have a super steel, if you get my meaning. Great video MC. Very much needed.
I started collecting knives less than a year ago and in the beginning I thought blade steel was everything. I quickly realized that it's like buying art pieces. You might want to pay more for materials that are rarer or more expensive to craft but that is not a synonym of a better tool just by itself. Not trying to knock on anyone who's into super steels, they're amazing! They're just not obligatory for a knife to be great in my opinion.
Ive been "collecting" and "using" knives for awhile now . I think ive been through it all and went throu personal phases where i thought things where better than others ...my benchmade McHenry Williams in ats34 has held up like nobodys business and the old boy is still rockin cant believe it !
s30v is underrated from my understanding there’s many benefits over S35 vn and heat treat is most important. like benchmade s30 v is rock solid steel while i’ve heard mkm m390 on a specific model heat treat wasnt up to par and there having problems with edges rolling easier than it should preform but every steel has its pros cons based on specific needs
Agree with you here, even if you just consider edge retention steel does not matter as much as people would think. I think Outpost 76’e edge testing on cardboard has shown that even in terms of edge retention having a “good” steel doesn’t necessarily mean good edge retention. I think that he has found some knives with m390 are outperformed by knives in steels like Aus-8 and 9cr18mov depending on who made the knife. Quality of workmanship and consistency of manufacture matters. There is a reason that civivi dominates the budget end of the spectrum, and it isn’t the blade steels that they use.
I'm in the Great NW and use my knives hard daily. Delica 4 k390 is the best I've used and mostly carry. In the winter and rain I use a 940 or 470-1 with s30v. I almost have no blade left to sharpen on the 940 I've used it so much for years and years. S30v works great and lasts forever after a couple good sharpenings.
If the knife is used hard, the edge on a 20cv knife will last for weeks, a D2 will dull in hours. In a hard-use environment, like a fishing boat or hunting camp, steel type matters more.
The reason blade steel is important currently is that it is the only thing separating knives in a given category. When you remove personal preferences related to the appearance all you are left with is minor differences in the chosen steel and materials used. I want people to focus more on how the object was made, and what techniques go into the manufacturing process. Whether you actually use your blade or just flip it open knowing what you have when compared to another is very important. You are on to something but knife manufacturers read forums and realize the trends that consumers follow and certainly know that steel popularity plays a huge part in the final build of their knives. Whether the steels have inflated lore that isn't grounded in reality is something that happens every day and not just with knives but damn near everything. When Certain companies are known for using particular steels and have gotten to a point from years of working with that material the manufacturing process becomes simplified and future products should reflect that simplified manufacturing process. My grip is that companies who have years of experience building a similar knife with similar materials have not adjusted their pricing. Knives have continued to get more expensive and are manufactured with the same materials. I also feel that when a certain steel is widely used it should also bring about a certain price point. There is a lot to be said about a knife that most are buying as a "collectible" and the rare material used to make the knife. So yes I still feel S35VN is a common "premium" steel that is widely used and is now on par with S30V in that regard. You have to acknowledge the collectible aspect of certain materials and the companies that use them and take that into consideration. The true help comes when you break down their characteristics and benefits that go into the knifes manufacturing and then add to that Colectabiliy or better yet perceived collectability. Please expand on what constitutes an expensive knife as opposed to an inflated blade made with now common materials thru an industry-wide simplification of the process. Nice video.
I am having a Production Knife Made right now and I thought The cost would go down considerably if I went from M390 to say 154cm! It went down literally less than two dollars a knife! I don’t know how companies can sell two knives exactly the same but then charge over $100 for the more premium steel when I know it cost them maybe two bucks! Crazy
I agree with this totally! There is an over emphasis on blade steel in the knife collecting community. I have folders with all types of blade steel. I do take note of the steel used for the blade, but If I like the knife I’ll buy it regardless of what blade steel it has.
People who value a knife solely on the name of the steel are essentially just outing themselves as having very little user experience actually using their knives as tools. 1: just like you said, the cost difference in many steels is actually nowhere near what people think or what some companies charge between 2 variations of the same model in different steels. Go price out some steel stock, M390 and S30V or even VG-10 are not a $100+ difference in the cost for the same amount! 2: Many of the features/properties of "premium" steels are things you're never even going to utilize in a damn pocket knife and may not have even been achieved in the heat treat. 3: People worry WAY too much about corrosion resistance, you have to SERIOUSLY neglect even a high carbon steel blade to ever cause any permanent damage to it. Hell I've taken carbon Moras on FLOAT TRIPS submerged in water for days on end with no problem other than wiping off some surface rust. I even once forgot a 1095 knife out in my backyard for a week in the snow and rain and there was no permanent damage of any kind. 4: Very hard to sharpen super steels are SHIT in many working environments because they still dull throughout the work but are a nightmare to sharpen on the go. I've actually often opted for the "budget" steel versions of knives instead of their "premium" counterparts because the "budget" steel was better suited to the tasks I would be applying it to. 5: Every steel has its place and best use and almost none of the judgement of which steel a knife "should" have has anything to do with the price. Yeah, a $250 knife with Aus8 is ... well, they could do better... but even then, the steel choice is not what was making that knife cost $250 to begin with.
If you look at knife stores online they categorize everything based off steel. My guess is for someone just starting out in the knife world (like me) they see “premium” and are more likely to buy it since it offers a better sounding package.
The fixation w/ blade steel is inversely proportional to how much you use your knife. So both things can be true at the same time: *Yes, I want my safe queen jewelry knife to have a premium m390, 62 hrc steel. But this is not the knife I want when SHTF. *For work? I love victorinox unlabeled steel (seem like 440c). Need a better edge? Flip the coffee cup and put 10 passes on it. I will use that knife until I loose it or my blade becomes wharncliffe shaped. In the 200x I bought a spyderco on Vg10 because it was the last steel you will ever need. Since I don't need espectacular corrosion resistance, I think they are still right.
Thank you for this. My favorite non 20cv/M390/204P knives have steel in K390, XHP, LC200N, and S110V. The knives I have in 20CV, I would have bought them if they came in many other steels. And all of the above perform about the same in practical use.
I buy knives to use so steel is an important factor in my decision making process. I like balance. Good toughness, edge retention, and sharpen-ability. Everything is a compromise though. My EDC is 14C28N, bushcraft knives 1095 and CPM3V, kitchen knives Victorinox stainless, hunting knife 154CM.
I have been collecting high dollar knives for well over 20yrs. Still catch myself doing it today. Went to pull the trigger in a knife the other day and didn’t because it was S45VN and not CPM20CV. I remember when S30v was only available on the highest knives. When VG10 was an outstanding steel. Even regular D2 was great. What we need to understand is that they still are. Unless it’s Magnacut that’s what lightsabers are made of!!!
I have various steels and i am quite happy with m390 as daily user. doesn't rust, holds and edge reasonably well and when it comes to sharpening... well, i use diamond stones and they sharpen everything at the same speed.
It always kinda annoys me when people rank steels based on edge retention.. and they're the same people with expensive sharpening systems which completely defeats the point
I’ve said my favorite premium steel was K390, and it is great. But it turns out, my steel snobbery affliction was fixed before it got too out of hand. I have blades with steels ranging from 8Cr to VG10 to Elmax. But it isn’t the steels that make them useful, it’s the design and quality of the knife AND proper steel selection and heat treatment. I wouldn’t want an H2 bushcraft knife any more than I’d want a 1095 diving knife.
D2 is a great example of the complexity of blade material choices. It has great properties, but in my sweaty hands where I live by the sea it quickly corrodes even with frequent oiling.
Honestly, after using 20+ different steels, CTS XHP is my absolute favorite. It takes a keen fine edge, which makes superbly clean laser like cuts on cardboard (99% of my usage). I rarely experience any fuzzy cuts. It sharpens easily, a few passes through a 600 grit stone to remove deformations, and 10 passes on a leather strop each side will get it scarily sharp. Those "higher tier" steels such as maxamet and K390 don't create quality cuts like CTS XHP. Sad that it's being slowly phased away.
On which knife? Because, not to knock down xhp, but if you are talking about the chaparral, then that is pretty much the perfect geometry for an urban edc
In my real world experience from breaking tips off a 940 s30v digging steel cases out of an ar15 chamber to skinning a dear with s35vn and everything in-between.. my 3 favorite steels are 20cv in a sawtooth working edge, and s35/45cv for a mirror finish. As of right now, my WE ELEMENTUM 20CV and CIVIVI QUIBIT 14c28n are holding up the best, even over my sebenza.
Good rant, I feel the same mostly. You should note that PM steels are infinitely better, for example CPM D2 is > D2 esp. in carbide distribution and is only about 25% more in cost. D2 for a 2x24x.250 is $66 and CPM D2 for 2x24x.225 is $82 for the same size in CPM S35VN is $105 (8 x 4" folders maybe?). Even the most expensive steel is only a few bucks more each, but like you said there is more to knife than the steel. Thanks.
It’s kind of crazy how marketing works and what actually compares to 440B like AUS-8, 14c28n, and AEB-L while 440C is commonly shunned by many in the community today. The unlabeled “440” knives really did 440C a huge disservice, along with all the hype of new steels regardless of performance. Realistically, all I need for my daily use is AUS-8 or occasionally a little more wear resistance but over the years, the design and execution of the knife have really become the deciding factors of what I purchase.
So.. as a guy that started collecting knives with different Kershaw, CRKTs, AUS8 Cold Steel and a ATS34 Spyderco. I didn't care about steel until TH-cam. I still don't really care. Fact is my favourite knife ever is/was my Kershaw one ton in 8cr. Why? Every month we break down a 40' container of shipment. When the knife feels dull, I "strop" it back right there on the side of the container. It's frikkin comfortable and I can keep going longer and faster than someone with premium steel. Highest I go now is 14c28n for a working knife. Cutting cardboard, box straps and popping staples, even scraping grouting. I've cut more cardboard in 1 month than most knife guys in their lifetime 😉 I have premium steels but like the majority, tends to be pocket jewelry
Fully agree to a point. Buy the knife and design, not the steel. But still don't agree with Gerber and Kershaw still selling 7cr or lower for $40. Or even Boker selling D2 for $150 and more.
I just want a steel that can resist sweat. if I keep a knife in my pocket on a hot day in humid climate the inside of my pockets tend to get soaked and it affects my knife. Stuff like d2 end up getting corriosion way too easily and I don't always want to carry some 300 dollar knife on me. What would you guys suggest is the best affordable steel in this type of situation?
I don't mind supersteels, and if one is buying a few knives for specific roles, rather that accumulating dozens of safe queens, buying higher in the knife hierarchy, from makers with good reputations for heat treatment, isn't a bad expenditure. I do think our valuations have focused too much on edge retention, and not enough on toughness, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Chip a "glassy" knife that is difficult to sharpen, and you're in for 2 hours of reprofiling if you don't have some pricey motorized sharpening wheels/belts. And a tougher steel can hold a more acute angle for easier cuts than a less tough, higher edge retaining steel. I'd much rather have tougher, easier to resharpen steels like MagnaCut, XHP, LC200N, S35VN, and yes, 14C28N or Nitro-V in a knife, rather than brittle, hyper edge retention steels like S110V, S90V, M390, 20CV, or 204P. In less corrosion resistant steels, I'd rather have 4V, Cru-Wear, or 3V than any of Maxamet, ZDP-189, 15V, or 10V.
When trying to get the best bang for your buck, you're not going to care about the differences in manufacturing costs. You care about how much it costs and and how good is the product.
Got a pretty good Black Friday deal on my first Kalashnikov. I was waiting to "pull the trigger" until the sales started. It's D2 which is good enough for me. I told my wife between watching your videos and cruising the web for deals I should have a good Christmas... everyone else gets whatever's left.
There are “only” 3 or more other aspects of a knife more important than the type of steel it utilizes. Most of M390/20CV in production knives is just a steal IMO, cause they sell you the bigger edge retention than basically any other steel when they heat treat these steels to 59HRC or less. I mean at that HRC it has basically the same properties as S30V, S35VN, etc. Edge geometry is much more important as well as thickness behind the edge, also the angle of the bevel changed A LOT the final value of cut material…I have Cold Steel Voyager XL, AUS10, TBE 0,021”, 17 degrees per side, cuts longer and more easily than my Benchmade 940-1 with S90V steel that has 0,027” TBE, 25 degrees per side and blade geometry of an axe. I mean when you are so obsessed with steel, first you get info how the company heat treats their knives and what TBE they achieve.
AT LAST ! By the way, there's another elephant in the room : G10 costs about NOTHING, adding 30 % on the price tag because you switch from frn to G10 is a scam... About the same for micarta...
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I feel like a good portion of us, myself included, go through a sort of character arc when it comes to knives. We first start learning about knife steels, and we're okay with the "budget" stuff. Then our taste gets more and more expensive and soon we become steel snobs. Then we start realizing that knife steels are no where near as important as we thought it was, that there are so many other things that make a knife great and that it's not always about edge retention. Finally we make it to the end and have the same ideology MC explained in this video where you just buy what you like and let other people buy what they like. lol
Late comment, but I just went through it myself. Passed up a nice Hogue off of someone because I thought 154CM wasn't good enough and spent the money on an M390 knife online. Love the thing, but I'm still not good at sharpening. Ended up continuing to carry my old budget knife, which uses 440C. Funny how that works.
Well said. I agree 1 hundo.
I dig 154CM.
You just explained my life bro
Yeah, sort of. I kinda realized early on that s30v or s45vn works perfectly for me, and I have no trouble sharpening it, so I never went full steel snob. If you use and sharpen your knives, you quickly realize ergonomics, blade profile, and sharpenability are more important
You have no idea how happy i am to hear someone like you, who has influence, say that about Blade steel. There are people slamming Chris Reeve for not using M390 or S90V and completely overlooking the detail and craftsmanship. And, Oh yea....The ability to sharpen your own knife!
I’m a long time CRK fanboy and I would never buy another CRK if they switched to something like M390. Thankfully, they know who their base is, and that we’re looking for stable blades we can use hard when we need to.
I'm using my knife on job site cutting all sorts of stuff. If i can't afford to loose it, or sharpen it with my small fallkniven stone it's of no value to me.
I’ve been looking for confirmation like this about the Joker Nomad with N695. Thanks for making such an awesome video with a few sheets of paper. Well done
@@chrisnotyourbusines7739 your doing alright if you can afford to lose a sebenza
@@eyesintheskiesfor real I can’t even afford to buy a sebenza much less lose one lol
We have gone from utilizing how valuable something is to ourselves, to worrying about what value it has to someone else. This is YOUR collection or hobby, being bought with YOUR money. Who cares what someone else thinks, do it for whatever reason brings you joy, I have a buddy that is trying to buy 1 of every animal named knife (1 knife per animal), want to talk about a crapshoot of knives from a materialistic standpoint, but each one brings him the same joy so who cares what someone else thinks. Much Love MC , this video was 100% needed, we need to learn our self values again!!
Grail animal folder would be Aardvark Inkosi Insingo.
Perfect response!!
Turn him onto a spyderco meerkat. It's a fun little knife with a lock mechanism that just makes me smile.
This video has been much needed for many people, well said
People worrying about steel when they are opening Amazon boxes that has tape designed to be ripped open with our freaking hands. 🤣
Wait what? Really?
Lol all these knife youtubers just use expensive knives to open packages of more expensive knives
I've tried opening a few Amazon boxes without a blade of any kind and... If that's what it's designed for, it's designed poorly lol.
Those thing are *at least* going to need some teeth.
So true! 😂
Agreed, everything should be 8cr13mov so I can afford it.
I love m390, I love my knives in m390, would I still love those same knives in a different steel? Absolutely, it’s the total package that generally makes a great knife. Having said that, I have fantastic luck with m390, I feel like it holds that “just sharpened” edge a bit longer, plus I don’t wait till it gets really dull before I touch it up and generally I get away with just a good strop with green compound.
That slam on the table was absolutely necessary and very well timed 😂 thank you for the refreshing take on the community, great content as always.
I agree, just bought a sebenza and it kinda sucks hearing people say “eww gross, $450 for s45vn”
Shut up, maybe overpriced but it’s worth it to me
I just bought a Sebenza in S35VN with black micarta inlays, and it's one of the greatest knives I've ever handled. Not because of the steel, but because of the way the knife's put together. I'm so impressed with it, I've ordered a Macassar Ebony inlay Sebenza (in S45VN now) from Chris Reeve directly.
Congrats on the sabenza !
for a my Hinderer ek 3.5,its just the same😂"425 dollars for a s45vn".just don't give a fuck about others' words,i can use my money to buy the knives i like instead of buying the knives others think highly of😊
I remember when s30v was all the rage and now a lot of people 💩 all over it like its "stainless steel" from a gas station knife. I prefer budget and mid range steels on my users like a lot of others here have said. Excellent video!
I'm still a huge fan of s30v as well as LC200N (mostly for its stain/corrosion resistance), but damn there's something about m390!
Yeah you can actually put a good edge back on S30V and other mid-range and especially budget steels without breaking the bank on sharpening equipment.
The days when only a CRK or strider came in S30. When VG10 and 154Cm were too quality steels. (Still are IMO)
I like S30V and VG-10. I have a couple knives with 20CV and S90V. Honestly, I haven't done much of anything with them as far as being able to report on their edge holding capability. Great video. 👍
I remember when 440C was the high end premium steel for knives.
I’m so glad someone is making a video covering this topic. One of my favorite knives uses 14c28n. It’s a pretty cool steel, and the knife is really well made and under $60
Would this be the QSP Hawk by any chance?
I recently bought a fixed blade for outdoor use in 14C28N by Ruike.
For value for money it’s fantastic
I love my Kubey Hydra 14c✊🏻
My personal favorite steels (that I actually own and use) are D2, 14C28N, CTSBD1, 154CM, s30v, and s35vn.
I also haven't spent more than about $150 on a single knife.
I know. I look at some knives and really like them but can’t justify paying over $200
Though I have spent more, it won't stop me from liking D2, S35VN, etc. So much easier to sharp them.
For me the ablity to sharpen easerly is imported to me. Tlhats why I love Curware, or Cpm 45. Thanks for putting blade steel in perspective.
My EDC is an S45VN Sebenza and I love the steel. It's really easy to strop it when it gets a bit dull instead of doing a full sharpening every time.
However, I use M390 and 20CV at work. Three reasons for that:
1. I need the best edge retention possible because I can be at work for more than a month at a time, and my KME system stays at home.
2. I sweat like crazy, so corrosion is a concern with less stainless steels.
3. Toughness isn't much of a concern because we carry other tools for prying and cutting hard materials if needed.
I don't particularly like sharpening M390 and 20CV though because it takes a lot longer than S45VN.
I agree.
As a daily user I prefer well balanced steels like Cruwear or S35VN.
At work I like to carry S110V for the reasons you mentioned, it's stainless, holds an edge for a long time and pretty easy to strop back.
I thought working a double was rough, but this guy’s work day lasts all month?!
@@Stahlwerk88 my standard shift is 48hrs, but the longest I've been at work continuously is 58 days. That still doesn't hold a candle to our military though, I couldn't do a year or more at a time.
I'm 58 been collecting since about 10 years old. Back when 440c was the steel , another good old one was ats34 for sure , keep up the good work .
I still wouldn't mind 440c, a good treat on it makes for a wonderful knife.
440c, alot of us know. Gerber ez out was my first knife and I still use it.
@@kennycraig I have my dad's old Gerber Mark I, here's to hoping I never have to use it.
Ohh ATS34 that was the top dog when I first started collecting,and 440c with a good treat was as good as anything you could get
The more I use M390 the more I dislike it. I work landscape construction and beat on my knives a lot and ease of sharpening is very important to me. For me steels like S35VN and even 1095 have been awesome and way more preferable for the majority of tasks than M390 because they're way easier for me to sharpen.
THIS comment👆
👍👍👍
I strop my my cruwear and rex45 daily and never have a issue it takes 40 seconds and I'm done.
@@richardsimmons6526 it depends on what you're using it for. I've cut sod (around some curbing) with m30 and the wear on the blade is far greater than what 40 seconds of stropping with fix. In situations like that the difference in edge retention between m390 and aus8 is almost meaningless because everything will dull just as fast when you run it though rocks and dirt. I'd take ease of sharpening in that scenario. I realize not everybody does this on a daily basis, but that's also the point of the video.
@@hinklehymer6893 sod does do a number on blades in a hurry. Cut paper against a steel bar when I forget were my utility knife went and the rex45 strops back to hair popping pretty fast.
@@hinklehymer6893 pp
After the cost of making the steel the cost of wear from machining and finishing the steel can add a lot to the end cost too. Stuff like Maxamet has you going through way more end mills, bits, and grit material than 440C. I can't remember if you mentioned heat treat (I'm sure you did) but a proper heat treat and whether or not you have to outsource to get it can make a noticeable difference in the cost of a blade. I've seen it mentioned that Sal Glesser said that maxamet is really rough on the machines and it's why Spyderco is one of the few companies working with it.
I come from a kitchen knife collection background and I am just getting into folding knives. The thing that shocked me the most was people with this mentality (seems to be more prevalent in this community).
This is actually a great problem to have. I still remember the days when there was essentially no choice when it came to blade steel. Personally, I'm so sick of M390/20CV/204P. Ease of sharpening and corrosion resistance have become my preferred features in a steel. I'm a big fan of Vanax. Sadly it's one of the hardest to come by and could probably be considered Supremium™.
If those two things are what you value most high hardness AEB-L is right up your alley.
I think the golden age was about 5 years ago. There were tons of steels being used giving variety. ZT came out with maxamet and vamax35 and had production knives in elmax, s30v, s35vn, and m390. Kershaw was throwing SG2, cpm154, s30v, bdz1, cpm d2, and m4 knives out. Spyderco was using the cool laminated super blue and their many sprint para2 runs.
Now, other than limited editions, which seem to be less prevalent it's all standardized. Manufacturers just use like 2-3 steels for their whole lineup.
Many of the factors in steel choice is availability. Cold Steel switched from CTSXHP because S35vn was readily available.
Proper heat treat matters more to me.
Bingo ,plus for me how the edge grind is and the bevel finish
My favorite steels are the more "midrange" steels. 154,s35,s45. Thanks for the video.
I know I'm falling into the trap that was discussed in this video, but I don't think s45vn is midrange, heh.
@@brenp403 🤷🏼♂️ maybe you are right. I was kinda going off of what the community in general thinks. I hear 154 called budget . I don't agree with that. I fell into the m390 20cv s90 is better no matter what. I have learned for my use I like 154 and s35 because I use my knives so much ,no matter what steel it is I have 2 sharpen fairly often. I just love how easy the more" mid grade" steels are 2 maintain and or sharpen. I still love the other steels. I only have one knife with xhp and I am super happy with it. I think it's a problem when people think if a knife doesn't have m390 or magnacut it's not good. Would love 2 hear what steels you like and why.
Same here. I love 14C28N and Nitro V. It makes sharpening so enjoyable.
FINALLY. Someone daring to stand against the Super Steel Mafia. I salute you for your message, and your bravery for talking about this. I am of the mindset that a knife can't always be determined by certain factors. Different knives serve different uses. A C70 carbon steel traditional knife may be 1000 times more valuable to someone then some "Timascus framelock". Some people want corrosion ressistance as their main benifit in a steel. Some may want edge retention. Some may want a surgical steel that gets REALLY sharp, REALLY fast. Some may even want old school carbon. Like a knife itself, value is determined on what we choose to view as valuable. Nothing can ever change that. A SAK may be perfect to some folks, a Buck 119 to another. There is no super steel that will make a Case collector stop buying Case. A knife is only as valuable as we view it to be. Steel is just one of many factors to determine what we see as an ideal knife.
Great video. I agree completely.
My value equation: Rants + Table Slams = High Quality Content.
I'm going to add onto this, a knife with proper geometry for the task at hand in any left column steel is better than a knife with poor blade geometry for the task in the right column steels.
As a US Marine, the steel only needs to get me through the mission. Today, working for the Postal Service, it really hasn't changed.
so the demands of the U.S. postal service are on par with those of the military? Ill be sure to thank my mailman for their service. Ive taken them for granted for far too long :(
@@teddyperkins3406 You're welcome. I work at a processing facility and find myself in need of a blade more often than I would like.
@@teddyperkins3406
As a former marine, I can tell you the post office does a whole lot more to make your day to day life better. Maybe you should consider thanking them...
If you're no longer a marine than you're no longer a marine. Make sure you use past tense. I don't care what anyone says, when you're done that title doesn't stay with you forever. And I can't stand any of you military guys cause you constantly have this dire need to announce that you were in the military cause you're all so desperate for attention.
@@WheresWaldo05 Once a Marine, always a Marine. The mission is certainly different. I don't have to carry AK bar fighting knife but I carry a Spyderco PM2 instead.
My favorite steel is Elmax it is fairly easy to sharpen and retains a good edge thanks bro😁👍
I met a young woman who realized through seeing my Spyderco on my pocket I was a knife collector . She had started her own collection and wanted me to come by and see her knives . Her eyes lit up showing me her collection . I smiled and complimented her new found hobby. Her knives were all flashy Chinese knives. What brings you JOY is what's important ! What worked for me as a truck Driver cutting rope , cardboard , Plastic and whatever ? VG10 Spyderco was my favorite work knife .A Damn good knife .Great working steel .
I've always thought two kinds of ways about this. First, I remember when bark river "accidentally" had a knife or two that was labeled 20CV, but in reality, was almost certainly A2 - honest mistake or not, it makes you wonder. I know there's been other instances of things like that but that's what comes to mind. Far and away the easiest way to spot something like that is corrosion resistance, and that's what tipped that off, but for most stainless folding knives, that wouldn't be an option. Say s30V vs M390 - most of us aren't in a corrosive enough environment that we'd really notice that. Long and short, I think steel is so incredibly overhyped in knives it's ridiculous, but I also wonder how much anyone would even know the difference between s30v and m390 if it wasn't labeled. Yes I know half the people reading this are sharpening experts and know how different steels feel under their stones, etc... but I wonder if you were given 5 unmarked blades and 5 steels and not told which was which how accurate your assessment would be. And people reading this are in the 1% of the knife world that know about this stuff. It is amazing how much we trust the maker to give us the advertised steel, especially when that information is almost impossible for us to verify in many instances on the end-user level.
The other thing that's probably even more important - the material makeup/chemical composition of the steel is one thing - that's what most people look at when they see steels and try to differentiate performance differences. In truth, probably even more important is the heat treat of those steels. All S30v is not created equal. All m390 is not created equal. All D2 is not created equal. I would rather a company work exclusively with a given steel and extensively push the boundaries of what's possible with heat treat and cryo than have them jump into some new wonder steel and not do that work. Heat treat is so incredibly important, and not nearly enough questions are asked about it. Most people see m390 and think that's that - they don't even stop to ask where it came from and who heat treated it, and how extensive the manufacturer's experience with that steel is.
There's no real point to all of this. Good vid - got me reminiscing about this stuff.
I in the past I bought into the steel hype. Don’t get me wrong there are steels that are better than others. As I learned more about knives , sharpening , grinds and use I now buy a knife on geometry first then ergos and design. In the last year I have bought a few knives in 8cr because it was well built and I liked the design. Quess what ? They work great at cutting stuff. Maybe they dull a little quicker than more premium Steel but it’s not like you use it once and it won’t cut through hot butter like some act. Buy what you like !
I know I’m a little late to the game on this one but I got some reasonable advice from my uncle several years back before he passed away, god rest his sole!! He worked for GE Aviation as an engineer for about 30 years and in doing so he worked with a lot of high end alloys. So I had a conversation with him about some of those alloys and he told me that 95% of people carrying pocket knives with higher end “super alloy” blade steel were never going to see enough of a difference to make a difference. Well I have to say after years of carrying knives I think he might be right!! After about the 14C28N line I can’t really work a knife hard enough to tell a real measurable difference. Now I’m talking mostly about poket sized folders and some of your every day carry sized fixed blades, cause I actually carried a fixed blade for a long time as well. Now you might be able to tell a difference if you really aim to go out and sort of destructively test knives until they fail or at least the usable part of the cutting edge fails!! But let’s be real 95% of us who edc a knife don’t have that kind of time or for that matter the desire to go to that kind of extreme!! I mean in terms of knife steel I absolutely love a good heat treated cpm154 and I can say without hesitation it has done everything I needed it to do. Don’t get me wrong I own some knives in 20CV, S30V, M390, and honestly my 14C28N and CPM154 knives have held right there with them for most standard edc tasks.
Sorta new here, read a lot about metals already, etc and this video helped me be more decisive and happy with the choices I make as far as the overall knife and the intended uses. I was getting too stuck on steel only so to speak. Thanks!
I bought a knife made of M390 because I didn’t want it to rust on the boat, and I wanted a nice knife. I had no idea it was a premium steel, and that there was such controversy over these things... lol.
The most overrated knife spec: blade steel. The most underrated knife spec: lock bar access.
This is my favourite one of your "commentary on the knife community" videos ever. I love the pieces of paper and how they were used, as well as the points you were making
As a guy who genuinely prefers s45VN to 20CV in almost all use cases, I'm definitely going to like this video regardless, but I still think it was *especially* well done :)
I think there’s a misunderstanding about where the value is, a buyer’s expectations, and what is required of the owner to reap the rewards of a premium.
Premium steels aren’t just harder to machine, they’re vastly more expensive to machine… they wear and chip bits/cutters much more rapidly, the feed speed is slower (so then is daily production), they shag finishing belts much quicker, the heat treat processes are often more complicated and time consuming to extract the very best attributes (otherwise, why bother, right) and finally they’re more labor intensive to sharpen.
The value built into the blade is manifested as noticeably better edge retention and/or toughness and its wholly appreciated by those of us who can (properly) razor-edge our dulled elmax or m390 blades in just a minute or two on a Ken Onion without buggering up the edge or chewing on the handle or scratching the side of the blade.
“Premium” steels aren’t really for those who have not yet paid their dues practicing sharpening, or those who like to cut staples in cardboard boxes or who like digging in the rocks.
My personal favorites… zdp189 folders, elmax hiking/camping/hunting fixed blades when I need it to hold a keen edge for a few days, 3v hard use fixed blades with sharpening options available, A2 and 1095 long term survival blades as they can be kept razor sharp with only a strop and Tormek paste (3v too if you’re determined and take your time).
M390 is overhyped, and pushed to market by non knife users demands; S90V is tougher and has way better edge retention. Folding cutlery, being primarily for … cutting, I think edge retention and edge stability should be the focus. S90V > M390 and really should be the celebrated “super steel”. If you can put corrosion resistance aside, then tool steels offer a much better combination of edge stability, toughness, and edge retention. We as a community always have to be chasing the newest trends, especially in steels. We have had access to some of the greatest performing steels on folders, but we still need something new. Also…Geometry cuts.
I definitely like corrosion resistance over mostly everything else, I can deal with sharpening but having to clean up rust is a pain. so most of my favorite steels are n690, s35vn, m390, cpm3v(coated), and vg-10.
154CM baby!!! The N690CO (*NOT N690) on my Steel will Gekko Mini is amazing, it takes a laser edge relatively easily and has good edge retention.
I’ve got D2 on a freakin $550 Medford Infraction! Who cares! Haha.
N690 IS N690Co. The version without Co is called N695 which is basically 440c (but tighter composition because Bohler's QC is good )
This a a great point MC most people need to use their knives and determine which steels work best for them. They need to look at their daily use and determine which attributes are best for them. For a hard working tradesman who is hard on his knives M390 is an awful choice as it will most likely chip but Cruwear or 3v may be perfect for them. Another factor is who makes it, how are their heat treats, geometry and ergonomics. An 8cr at 8 thousandths behind the edge will cut M390 at 40 thousandths all day.
I usually think, "is it full tang? Can it baton?".
All knives < Full Tang < Böker Mermaid
This was made VERY apparent for me here recently. I work at a smoke shop here in the Nashville area, and had this older gentleman come in. We shot the shit for about 15-20 minutes and noticed a Microtech Untratech on his belt, he also pulls out a TwoSun, and my god I have to have one... Titanium frame lock with 14c28n. Freaking perfect
Thanks. I agree with your logic. I'm amused by "perceived" value of different knife steels. For example, folks who live in the desert and value corrosion resistance, or those who value toughness, but would never use the timascus draped collector for those days of fence repair. EDC and daily user work knives definitely require a different mindset (and steel) than used on a $1200 Shirogorov.
When I bought my first Microtech (Ultratech) earlier this month, I went out of my way to get one in Elmax (rather than M390), because I wanted the extra toughness.
You are so correct! I felt myself getting sucked down the steel-lined rabbit hole. Then one day, I was making some feather sticks. And what steel was I using? A fixed blade with its cheap, outdated, and antiquated 1095.
The other thing that occurred to me was that most of my folding knives are budget to mid-quality steel. But I have one S30V, one BD1N, one K390, and one El Max. And what did I realize? Other than the K390 (which is tiny and lives in my 5th pocket), the other knives with above-average steel sit in a drawer, shiny and unmarred. Why?
So I started carrying the premium steel knives in rotation. So far, no conclusions compared to budget steel knives in daily use. But I’m out of the rabbit hole and feeling much better.
When I see the debates on steel I am reminded of the great Stereo "Spec" wars of the 1970s. IT was all about the "specs" and not much about the overall design aspects. Many people would be hard pressed to hear the difference between various components, but the purists would test some big brand name and declare it better. And this is they way I see steel. For most people the steel should take a back seat to the overall design, ergonomics, operation, and esthetics. I have a $20 Ganzo Firebird G-lock that I enjoy using more than some knives that cost 10 times as much. The steel is 440C and I would declare that I could go 99 days out of 100 and never feel like the knife should have better steel. Now my EDC is a Bugout aluminum but I would rather have had a "lesser" steel at a lower price, but that is the way the knife comes. I prefer it over the Ganzo because it is so light and thin that it disappears in my pocket, while the Ganzo feels heavy and bulky by comparison. I could have been happy with VG 10 if they would have offered the Bugout with aluminum scales at a price maybe like $160.
VG 10 is my favorite steel because its so easy to sharpen that the edge retention does not matter to me. Plus its very corrosion resistant.
@Jesse Robinson thats weird. I took mine in the ocean and it didn't rust. I did clean and oil it after though.
I was on the steel hype train until about a year ago when i started actually tracking my real world results and 154cm quickly became my favorite steel. It is too humid where i live for things like m4, 20cv/m390 chip too easily for what i do, and maxamet is just too damn hard to sharpen. Sure there are things that i can change to make them work, but to what extent is it practical for me in the real world. Give me a well balanced steel any day of the week over a specialty steel for daily use.
You’d probably really like S35VN
@@justjoeking9818 I really like s35vn too!
@@michaelwilson3418 In that case you should give magnacut a shot when it comes out on your favorite knife. it's like an upgraded S35VN, sort of an all-rounder steel. it's very exciting
154cm would be my highest I would go on edge retention.
I love steels that give good edge life but are easy to sharpen. And good corrosion resistance. 👍
@@daveyboy6985 I understand that completely. I see people all the time that talk about edge retention as though it's the only thing that matters. To me it is important its just not the only thing i look for. I own knives in 20cv, m390, 204p, Elmax, Maxamet, Rex 121, and K390 but they are just not my favorite steels.
I have no problem with D2 especially on my budget knives that are $20-60 it’s great. But when I see a knife $150 using D2 it’s hard for my brain to get over the fact that I feel it should be less since all my D2 knives are cheaper.
I owned a ZT with S30V and posted it once and got a lot of negative comments about how there are better steels. When I bought that knife it was top of the line and I have abused that knife and it still cuts well and is in good condition.
I think that knife design and blade geometry are more important than blade steel.
I get a power strop, hard leather wheel, mounted to a bench grinder with white buffing compound and man its impossible to have a dull anything, it mirror polishes all steel and i love my 20cv kershaw. Keeps it hair splitting sharp in 10 seconds per side
As a metallurgist I can confirm you can turn any steel to cow poo! Also a good heat treatment can develop exceptional properties. So the steel really is not everything. The art matters.
Great vid on the psychology of knife collecting, and how we think and compare, particularly since most collectors don't use or sharpen a blade enough to realize advantages of one steel over another. Again, it's a mind game that's likely at the heart of collecting most anything. Careful that we don't fall prey to our own over thinking, comparing, and virtual "slicing and dicing." 👍😁🗡️
Blade shape and geometry have more to do with function than anything else. Steel choice is about longevity, environment, and ease of use/preferences. Just my 2 cents. Like the vid. Long time user and collector
Ya I read the Larrin Thomas article too 😉
My most carried knife (I carry it every day) is a GEC slip joint with 440c. I use it a ton and love the 440c because it’s easy to maintain and stainless. You don’t need to have a “super steel” to have a super steel, if you get my meaning. Great video MC. Very much needed.
I started collecting knives less than a year ago and in the beginning I thought blade steel was everything.
I quickly realized that it's like buying art pieces.
You might want to pay more for materials that are rarer or more expensive to craft but that is not a synonym of a better tool just by itself.
Not trying to knock on anyone who's into super steels, they're amazing!
They're just not obligatory for a knife to be great in my opinion.
Ive been "collecting" and "using" knives for awhile now . I think ive been through it all and went throu personal phases where i thought things where better than others ...my benchmade McHenry Williams in ats34 has held up like nobodys business and the old boy is still rockin cant believe it !
You're right steel isn't everything.
The heat treat matters too.
Thank you. It's not more valuable if it takes much longer to sharpen and maintain but holds the edge just as long.
s30v is underrated from my understanding there’s many benefits over S35 vn and heat treat is most important.
like benchmade s30 v is rock solid steel
while i’ve heard mkm m390 on a specific model heat treat wasnt up to par and there having problems with edges rolling easier than it should preform
but every steel has its pros cons based on specific needs
Agree with you here, even if you just consider edge retention steel does not matter as much as people would think. I think Outpost 76’e edge testing on cardboard has shown that even in terms of edge retention having a “good” steel doesn’t necessarily mean good edge retention. I think that he has found some knives with m390 are outperformed by knives in steels like Aus-8 and 9cr18mov depending on who made the knife. Quality of workmanship and consistency of manufacture matters. There is a reason that civivi dominates the budget end of the spectrum, and it isn’t the blade steels that they use.
I'm in the Great NW and use my knives hard daily. Delica 4 k390 is the best I've used and mostly carry. In the winter and rain I use a 940 or 470-1 with s30v. I almost have no blade left to sharpen on the 940 I've used it so much for years and years. S30v works great and lasts forever after a couple good sharpenings.
If the knife is used hard, the edge on a 20cv knife will last for weeks, a D2 will dull in hours. In a hard-use environment, like a fishing boat or hunting camp, steel type matters more.
The reason blade steel is important currently is that it is the only thing separating knives in a given category. When you remove personal preferences related to the appearance all you are left with is minor differences in the chosen steel and materials used. I want people to focus more on how the object was made, and what techniques go into the manufacturing process. Whether you actually use your blade or just flip it open knowing what you have when compared to another is very important. You are on to something but knife manufacturers read forums and realize the trends that consumers follow and certainly know that steel popularity plays a huge part in the final build of their knives. Whether the steels have inflated lore that isn't grounded in reality is something that happens every day and not just with knives but damn near everything. When Certain companies are known for using particular steels and have gotten to a point from years of working with that material the manufacturing process becomes simplified and future products should reflect that simplified manufacturing process. My grip is that companies who have years of experience building a similar knife with similar materials have not adjusted their pricing. Knives have continued to get more expensive and are manufactured with the same materials. I also feel that when a certain steel is widely used it should also bring about a certain price point. There is a lot to be said about a knife that most are buying as a "collectible" and the rare material used to make the knife. So yes I still feel S35VN is a common "premium" steel that is widely used and is now on par with S30V in that regard. You have to acknowledge the collectible aspect of certain materials and the companies that use them and take that into consideration. The true help comes when you break down their characteristics and benefits that go into the knifes manufacturing and then add to that Colectabiliy or better yet perceived collectability. Please expand on what constitutes an expensive knife as opposed to an inflated blade made with now common materials thru an industry-wide simplification of the process. Nice video.
The longest justification of the exact problem MC was talking about...
I am having a Production Knife Made right now and I thought The cost would go down considerably if I went from M390 to say 154cm! It went down literally less than two dollars a knife! I don’t know how companies can sell two knives exactly the same but then charge over $100 for the more premium steel when I know it cost them maybe two bucks! Crazy
I agree with this totally! There is an over emphasis on blade steel in the knife collecting community. I have folders with all types of blade steel. I do take note of the steel used for the blade, but If I like the knife I’ll buy it regardless of what blade steel it has.
People who value a knife solely on the name of the steel are essentially just outing themselves as having very little user experience actually using their knives as tools.
1: just like you said, the cost difference in many steels is actually nowhere near what people think or what some companies charge between 2 variations of the same model in different steels. Go price out some steel stock, M390 and S30V or even VG-10 are not a $100+ difference in the cost for the same amount!
2: Many of the features/properties of "premium" steels are things you're never even going to utilize in a damn pocket knife and may not have even been achieved in the heat treat.
3: People worry WAY too much about corrosion resistance, you have to SERIOUSLY neglect even a high carbon steel blade to ever cause any permanent damage to it. Hell I've taken carbon Moras on FLOAT TRIPS submerged in water for days on end with no problem other than wiping off some surface rust. I even once forgot a 1095 knife out in my backyard for a week in the snow and rain and there was no permanent damage of any kind.
4: Very hard to sharpen super steels are SHIT in many working environments because they still dull throughout the work but are a nightmare to sharpen on the go. I've actually often opted for the "budget" steel versions of knives instead of their "premium" counterparts because the "budget" steel was better suited to the tasks I would be applying it to.
5: Every steel has its place and best use and almost none of the judgement of which steel a knife "should" have has anything to do with the price. Yeah, a $250 knife with Aus8 is ... well, they could do better... but even then, the steel choice is not what was making that knife cost $250 to begin with.
Finally something I can send to my “non-knife” buddies that have knife questions about what to buy. Lol
If you look at knife stores online they categorize everything based off steel. My guess is for someone just starting out in the knife world (like me) they see “premium” and are more likely to buy it since it offers a better sounding package.
The fixation w/ blade steel is inversely proportional to how much you use your knife. So both things can be true at the same time:
*Yes, I want my safe queen jewelry knife to have a premium m390, 62 hrc steel. But this is not the knife I want when SHTF.
*For work? I love victorinox unlabeled steel (seem like 440c). Need a better edge? Flip the coffee cup and put 10 passes on it. I will use that knife until I loose it or my blade becomes wharncliffe shaped.
In the 200x I bought a spyderco on Vg10 because it was the last steel you will ever need. Since I don't need espectacular corrosion resistance, I think they are still right.
Thank you for this. My favorite non 20cv/M390/204P knives have steel in K390, XHP, LC200N, and S110V. The knives I have in 20CV, I would have bought them if they came in many other steels. And all of the above perform about the same in practical use.
I buy knives to use so steel is an important factor in my decision making process.
I like balance. Good toughness, edge retention, and sharpen-ability. Everything is a compromise though.
My EDC is 14C28N, bushcraft knives 1095 and CPM3V, kitchen knives Victorinox stainless, hunting knife 154CM.
I have been collecting high dollar knives for well over 20yrs. Still catch myself doing it today. Went to pull the trigger in a knife the other day and didn’t because it was S45VN and not CPM20CV.
I remember when S30v was only available on the highest knives. When VG10 was an outstanding steel. Even regular D2 was great. What we need to understand is that they still are.
Unless it’s Magnacut that’s what lightsabers are made of!!!
I dunno. I have S30v, S35vn, and m390 blades. They're all pretty sweet. :)
I have various steels and i am quite happy with m390 as daily user. doesn't rust, holds and edge reasonably well and when it comes to sharpening... well, i use diamond stones and they sharpen everything at the same speed.
It always kinda annoys me when people rank steels based on edge retention.. and they're the same people with expensive sharpening systems which completely defeats the point
I’ve said my favorite premium steel was K390, and it is great. But it turns out, my steel snobbery affliction was fixed before it got too out of hand.
I have blades with steels ranging from 8Cr to VG10 to Elmax. But it isn’t the steels that make them useful, it’s the design and quality of the knife AND proper steel selection and heat treatment. I wouldn’t want an H2 bushcraft knife any more than I’d want a 1095 diving knife.
D2 is a very good steel, I prefer it over all of the "mid range" steels
i get hate for it but i really like d2
D2 is a great example of the complexity of blade material choices. It has great properties, but in my sweaty hands where I live by the sea it quickly corrodes even with frequent oiling.
The only significant downfall to d2 is the fact its not stainless. With a coating many companies can do it very well
I love VG-10 , D2 ,CPM-S90V, CPM-S45V
Its dumb but I get excited for D2 thats made well . Easy to sharpen and doesnt chip.
Honestly, after using 20+ different steels, CTS XHP is my absolute favorite. It takes a keen fine edge, which makes superbly clean laser like cuts on cardboard (99% of my usage). I rarely experience any fuzzy cuts. It sharpens easily, a few passes through a 600 grit stone to remove deformations, and 10 passes on a leather strop each side will get it scarily sharp. Those "higher tier" steels such as maxamet and K390 don't create quality cuts like CTS XHP. Sad that it's being slowly phased away.
On which knife? Because, not to knock down xhp, but if you are talking about the chaparral, then that is pretty much the perfect geometry for an urban edc
Incidentally, my favorite in that whole lineup at the beginning is that wonderful, very inexpensive QSP Penguin in denim micarta.
In my real world experience from breaking tips off a 940 s30v digging steel cases out of an ar15 chamber to skinning a dear with s35vn and everything in-between.. my 3 favorite steels are 20cv in a sawtooth working edge, and s35/45cv for a mirror finish. As of right now, my WE ELEMENTUM 20CV and CIVIVI QUIBIT 14c28n are holding up the best, even over my sebenza.
Good rant, I feel the same mostly. You should note that PM steels are infinitely better, for example CPM D2 is > D2 esp. in carbide distribution and is only about 25% more in cost. D2 for a 2x24x.250 is $66 and CPM D2 for 2x24x.225 is $82 for the same size in CPM S35VN is $105 (8 x 4" folders maybe?). Even the most expensive steel is only a few bucks more each, but like you said there is more to knife than the steel. Thanks.
Thanks for the informative videos. I appreciate it, especially as a newbie to the knife world.
It’s kind of crazy how marketing works and what actually compares to 440B like AUS-8, 14c28n, and AEB-L while 440C is commonly shunned by many in the community today. The unlabeled “440” knives really did 440C a huge disservice, along with all the hype of new steels regardless of performance. Realistically, all I need for my daily use is AUS-8 or occasionally a little more wear resistance but over the years, the design and execution of the knife have really become the deciding factors of what I purchase.
love my 154cman s30v knives, but not just because of the steel, the knives feel great, carry well and iget tons of use and enjoyment out of them
You where right that I was looking at the knives in the red dress 👗 (I know it's blue) my hardest steel rn is cpm 3v
So.. as a guy that started collecting knives with different Kershaw, CRKTs, AUS8 Cold Steel and a ATS34 Spyderco. I didn't care about steel until TH-cam. I still don't really care.
Fact is my favourite knife ever is/was my Kershaw one ton in 8cr. Why?
Every month we break down a 40' container of shipment. When the knife feels dull, I "strop" it back right there on the side of the container. It's frikkin comfortable and I can keep going longer and faster than someone with premium steel.
Highest I go now is 14c28n for a working knife. Cutting cardboard, box straps and popping staples, even scraping grouting.
I've cut more cardboard in 1 month than most knife guys in their lifetime 😉
I have premium steels but like the majority, tends to be pocket jewelry
Fully agree to a point. Buy the knife and design, not the steel. But still don't agree with Gerber and Kershaw still selling 7cr or lower for $40. Or even Boker selling D2 for $150 and more.
I just want a steel that can resist sweat. if I keep a knife in my pocket on a hot day in humid climate the inside of my pockets tend to get soaked and it affects my knife. Stuff like d2 end up getting corriosion way too easily and I don't always want to carry some 300 dollar knife on me. What would you guys suggest is the best affordable steel in this type of situation?
I don't mind supersteels, and if one is buying a few knives for specific roles, rather that accumulating dozens of safe queens, buying higher in the knife hierarchy, from makers with good reputations for heat treatment, isn't a bad expenditure.
I do think our valuations have focused too much on edge retention, and not enough on toughness, corrosion resistance, and ease of sharpening. Chip a "glassy" knife that is difficult to sharpen, and you're in for 2 hours of reprofiling if you don't have some pricey motorized sharpening wheels/belts. And a tougher steel can hold a more acute angle for easier cuts than a less tough, higher edge retaining steel. I'd much rather have tougher, easier to resharpen steels like MagnaCut, XHP, LC200N, S35VN, and yes, 14C28N or Nitro-V in a knife, rather than brittle, hyper edge retention steels like S110V, S90V, M390, 20CV, or 204P. In less corrosion resistant steels, I'd rather have 4V, Cru-Wear, or 3V than any of Maxamet, ZDP-189, 15V, or 10V.
My "surgical steel" case Sodbuster brings me as much joy as any of my folders with a "supersteel".
I’m looking to purchase a knife that comes in 154cm and m390 but m390 is about $60 more. Is the $60 worth it or is 154cm a good quality steel.
When trying to get the best bang for your buck, you're not going to care about the differences in manufacturing costs.
You care about how much it costs and and how good is the product.
Favorite budget- D2. Favorite mid range- nitro v, Favorite premium- M4 and cru wear. Properly heat treated D2 is amazing.
Got a pretty good Black Friday deal on my first Kalashnikov. I was waiting to "pull the trigger" until the sales started. It's D2 which is good enough for me. I told my wife between watching your videos and cruising the web for deals I should have a good Christmas... everyone else gets whatever's left.
There are “only” 3 or more other aspects of a knife more important than the type of steel it utilizes. Most of M390/20CV in production knives is just a steal IMO, cause they sell you the bigger edge retention than basically any other steel when they heat treat these steels to 59HRC or less. I mean at that HRC it has basically the same properties as S30V, S35VN, etc. Edge geometry is much more important as well as thickness behind the edge, also the angle of the bevel changed A LOT the final value of cut material…I have Cold Steel Voyager XL, AUS10, TBE 0,021”, 17 degrees per side, cuts longer and more easily than my Benchmade 940-1 with S90V steel that has 0,027” TBE, 25 degrees per side and blade geometry of an axe. I mean when you are so obsessed with steel, first you get info how the company heat treats their knives and what TBE they achieve.
How about the aesthetics? Or the ergonomics? Both of those trump steel in my opinion as well.
AT LAST !
By the way, there's another elephant in the room : G10 costs about NOTHING, adding 30 % on the price tag because you switch from frn to G10 is a scam... About the same for micarta...