I recently got my DF64V, largely based on this review, and I am very very happy with it. They seem to have fixed the motor issue as I haven't had a single stall or stutter even doing a cold start at 600 RPM with a light roast Ethiopian bean. Also I don't have much static on mine and the grinding is relatively clean.
@@asselinpower moderate. At lower speeds it's very quiet and at high speeds it's louder. It's quiet enough that I don't wake my wife and kids up in the morning.
64mm grinders have a huge advantage in that the burr options are much cheaper than 83mm. I would love to see you compare df64 gen2 w/ SSP MP, df64v with DLC and df83v2 with standard Itamill steel burrs as they all start to be in comparable price ranges with those burrs. If df64 + SSP MP tastes as good as df83 + standard burrs, that would be a HUGE advantage in favor of df64 gen2.
Now the Timemore 078s is about to ship. There could be an interesting 4 way comparison. Niche Duo VS Timemore 078s VS DF64V (or DF83) . They are all on very similar price range.
With stock burrs the difference is going to be mute, it’s more about build, use and aesthetics. These all seem to have their quirks, the DF needs modding on DF83 for other then espresso usage and it’s designed to slow the speed of the grind down and mitigate static, the effect of that will always be a bit more regrinding and exchange. The 078 range is designed as dual purpose the effect of that is lack of granularity on a single turn dial and it’s hopper is ode v1 flawed and it’s burr access is a nightmare but seem to be the lowest retention of the bunch. Then there is the duo with easier burr swap but it has no ioniser and knocker meaning more retention then the Sculpture and switching back and forth in grind is not as straightforward so it’s more suitable for single purpose as either brew or espresso. Point is the different grinders are going to fit different audiences. The DF being the most catered for espresso and Sculpture catered mostly for brewed and dual purpose and Niche somewhere in between in an either or.
@@tagheuer02 He is the only one reporting that issues… In other words he jumps conclusion on a one sample. There is a chance his burrs simply are defective this happens for all burr makers and you can’t always see it with the naked eye, small micron differences on the burr can lead to a burr being good and not so fantastic. While most seem to agree the cup performance is somewhere in between a conical and a flat. Don’t make it flawed. His entire methodology is absolutely worthless… my eyes hurt when I watched it… him trying to back his flawed idea by sifting with a kruve was head shaking to say the least. A kruve can tell you nothing about the PSD.
@@mikni4069kyle rosell also mentioned it was channeling before burr seasoning. When he got the actual 078s before be was testing with a 078 with the 078s burrs and didn't notice that. Weird.
Thanks for the review! I have watched through many times and I have put in an order for one of these! I just want to note that when you measure dB levels, it's always good to also state the distance that it was measured at. Typically when measuring sound with a meter, you want to be 3ft or 1m from the source of the noise. Thanks again, I enjoy the videos you make!
Apparently with the earlier DF64V they had the control board set a bit too conservative to protect against actually stalling or jamming up. Espresso outlet sells the updated board or you can get it from them if you bought the grinder from them i believe. My p64 has stalled for light roast espresso at the lowest rpm settings but its more like a hesitation where it resumes after a fraction of a second. Mine may be even older when the min rpm was actually even lower at 200rpm! I think it's the stock burrs in the df64v that are the reason why it's so loud and shrieky the MP SSP burrs are also a bit like that but probably not quite as annoying ha. Mizen burrs in the p64 are actually pretty nice sounding in comparison.
4:40 wow that's a BIG visual difference for just changing the RPM I didn't think it was that apparent. It kinda looks like you're getting more larger particles at lower RPM. It sounds like with this grinder you did end up noticing similar taste difference with RPM like you did with the P64 test in your other video where you tend to get more flavour clarity at lower RPM and more body at higher RPM, I found this is generally the case with the (three different) variable RPM grinders I've tried.
The dosing cup on the DF83 rattles around from the motor vibration (when using the portafilter holder) a wood stand eliminates this vibration issue. Personally I like the wood block as I always dose into a dosing cup.
I heard from Joe Kolb at Espresso Outlet that the grinder was noisier with portafilter forks, so they opted to remove them to be quieter, so that meant they had to find someting to raise the cup up to the grinder. So I think it is purely a functional choice with the result being poor aesthetics. Would have been slightly better in walnut, but still an odd choice. I can only imagine the noise being the PF rattling in the mounts causing a noise.🤷
I pre-ordered a df64v. I had it not even three weeks when it died. (not sure if mine had a bad control unit). So, going budget definitely means you're gambling with these kinds of things . The team from espresso outlet was very helpful with returning it though.
The crazy thing is that $600 is considered budget friendly. Thats still a lot of money for a coffee grinder and it should serve for many years with zero issues.
@@brindlebeard it's budget friendly for the features it offers, directly targeting the P64. In the grander scheme of home coffee grinders, it's midrange.
@@brindlebeard I agree. My 10 year old Rancilio Rocky was less than the Df64V and back then considered a mid level grinder without pressures like stalling at hard beans.
Recently change over to the Lucca DF64 as my daily driver. I have been trying to use a Ceado E5P as my single dose grinder, for the past 2 years. It was a pandemic buy. The Lucca DF64, for my daily espresso, for me has done an outstanding job so far. Grinder options over the past few years, has greatly increased in the sub $700 range. The Ceado has been relegated to grinding pour overs. My long term concerns are that the DF64, will not last in the long term, either motor or switch will give out. Yes, I would like to have a P64, but can't justify the cost, but you just never know. Thanks
Thanks for the review. What's interesting is reviews in the past have mentioned the plastic cup feels cheap, and it seems they listened with the metal dosing cup. However many users love the plastic as they can see if the grounds are level in the portafilter. The variable rpm is probably frustrating for companies as reviews of other grinders in the past will complain if the speed is too fast (too many fines) or too slow (takes longer to grind). I'm sure there is a speed that optimizes a certain burr set, but the manufacturer is stuck with getting review dings for a speed if they don't make it variable. (like the 330 rpm Niche Zero complaints are how long it takes to grind 30 grams - does that really matter? The conical burrs do matter, but the speed in relation to how long it takes? If the uniformity of ground size distribution is the goal does the speed at which it gets there matter? ) For me it seems increasing the RPM on the flat burrs is trying to reproduce the fuller body (muddiness) you get with conical burrs, then again it is a range that affects texture and taste.
Lagoom P-64 for me. A wonderful review, fun and informative. The stalling of DF64S is the main reason I wouldn’t even think of buying it. I spy with my little eye a new review in the near future. Looking forward to it.
Both can work equally as well. I marginally prefer using a dosing funnel and grinding straight into the portafilter. I think wdt works slightly better in the portafilter vs the dosing cup but there's not a lot in it.
This is certainly a reason for me to consider purchasing the unit now that the only major downside is fixed. I certainly don’t mind if a porta filter or dosing cup doesn’t fit on the machine, I like the wood trim esthetics with black. Based on the reviews of the stock burrs I’ll choose it over the DF83 too.
One thing about your grinder videos i truly appreciate is your “tight shot” of the burr when spinning. There seems to be a correlation between build quality and grind consistency with drive shaft wobble. 7:32 you can see how the DF64 wobbles a lot more than the Lagom. The wobble will be seen better in half video speed. Can you really align a burr set properly with that much wobble? This wobble reminds me of your Weber Key video, where you can clearly see that the drive shaft wobbles.
@@tobiasbouma4071 Thank you for pointing that out. You are not wrong. I realize that now that you mentioned it, the burr alignment may be independent of that wobble. Be that as it may, it shows lack of attention to detail. For the price point, I guess that some may look past that.
UGH. It seemed to have it all: small single dose, anti-popcorning, variable RPM, 300W motor, a good de-clumper at last, magnetically removable chute for cleaning, easily accessible burrs, SSP-level set, LOW RETENTION. Then just when the going gets good, something unsavoury hits the unsuspecting like a cool seagull on a clear blue day. Again I have to worry about the motor stalling because it might blow out. And I was so ready. This grinder was planned as a proper initiation for me in diving into light roast flavours without compromise, as the specs had so conveniently suggested. My foray into the world of flat burrs and away from the land of Breville. But... Smeagol wantses to spend money on the precious... good grinder still isn't it? GGGHH. Anyway. Some other reviewer actually mentioned that one of the magnets fell off and he had to superglue it back on the chute, which begs the question just how shoddy craftsmanship the rest of the grinder might have that we don't know of yet. I'm gonna try holding out, let it soak some more on the market so more experience can be had -and watch the price go up even more.- Thanks for covering the DF64V.
Nice video Spro! Where are you usually setting RPM for espresso on your p64? Also, have you checked out the Mizen burrs? Looks like you might have the SSP MP in there now? Would be great to hear your POV on the Mizen burrs.
Just to try and clarify the jamming for myself… I would use RPM the same as you - lower for pour over and higher for espresso to achieve clarity and complexity respectively. Are you still experiencing frequent jamming with coarser grinds at the low RPM? Or is the jam more often occurring when you drop the RPM for espresso grind? Eg how often were you jamming a 600rpm light roast for pour over? Great video as always so thanks!
Thank you for your review! Def was waiting to hear from you before thinking of getting one. I’m curious if they’ll come out with a “V2” soon, something I’ve noticed in the DF lime
Funny with the Lagom P64, also with a 300w DC motor, I only ever got MINI Stalls that quickly recover and resume grinding after a fraction of a second, at like 200-400RPM maybe (RPM setting of 1-2 out of 9, just for really light roasts at espresso setting) which is much lower than even the DF64v CAN GO. I think the SSP cast burrs seemed to be worse for stalling/hiccups on mine (had a stall happen on RPM setting of 3 which never happened with other burrs), with the Mizen burrs strangely it seems less prone to stalling even though they're a similar design, but maybe I just haven't been doing espresso at so low RPM with those. I believe the older P64s min RPM was 200RPM, so on your model it might actually be 200RPM not 300 RPM you're grinding at! They seemed to change it in their manual and website at some point to 300RPM. That's one downside of not having the actual RPM numbers displayed on the grinder. I noticed there's a lot of similar things on the DF64v (the anti-popcorn thing), dial and power button placement, adjustment knob, it is missing the ball bearing a lot of the fancier grinders have though. I kinda like the digital RPM display, and jumps / settings are small enough, but the analogue 'stepless' RPM dial on the P64 is nice to use and probably more reliable long term, although you might not know the exact RPM without the quickguide as a reference :p
Very clear review. Thank you! I have one question. How do you address a stall (jam?) and does this require starting over with a new load of beans? Have never had this problem with my 12-year old grinder, but am curious about the process of clearing jammed beans and continuing (or starting over).
Thank you, and good question. There’s two ways to go about it, the easy way that works about 70% of the time is just coarsening up the grind and hitting the power again (after unplugging and replugging it back in). This often will grind it out and you can start over. In some cases I had to open it all the way up and manually clean out the grinds and bean shards that jammed in the space between the burrs and the chamber wall. Then the process is the same, plug it back in, and grind out any remaining bits, hit it with a bellows and you’re back in business.
@@Sprometheus Many thanks for the reply. Those solutions make perfect sense, and will keep that info in mind with regard to a future grinder purchase. For me, a sufficiently powerful motor might actually be worth the extra $$. Thank you. Also always appreciate your Decibel meter 'sides'; loudness (and frequency) as a function of grinding time for a 'double' a big one for me - and all made clear this way. Very useful.
By issues do you mean it not de-clumping? I didn’t notice an issue with the grinds texture, was pretty happy with that. It is nice to have close access to it with the removable chute, which may be one of the reasons they made that choice.
REASON FOR STALLING: The DF64V has a small and low torque motor. The Lagom P64 is also 300W but at almost twice the size, with no stalling issues. You cannot beat physics and create a smaller sized motor with the same torque at the same RPM. The sacrifice here on the DF64V is in torque. Wattage = Torque x RPM The DF64V can only handle light roasts at high RPM, which defeats the purpose of Variable RPM (to reduce fines by decreasing RPM)
The torque should be the same at least if you compare the specs. Same RPM, same Watts equals same Torque. Unless there is a different gear ratio, which we don't know.
@@tcl7563 One is likely quoting 300W at max RPM (that’s why it stalls at low RPM) while the other is quoting 300W at min RPM. You make the guess which is which. P64 can go down to 300 RPM, while DF64V can only go down to 600 RPM. If both are taking min RPM to calculate 300W, P64 obviously has much higher torque. P64 goes up to 1400 RPM, while DF64V goes up to 1800 RPM. If both are taking max RPM to calculate 300W, P64 also obviously has higher torque. Conclusion: DF64V has low torque, and stalling CANNOT be fixed without overdriving the motor and sacrificing its lifespan.
You can fit 60-70g in with the bellows on, but the dosing cup only fits about 40-50 so you’ll need to stop, empty it and start again. Or you can remove the base and cup and depending on the pour over you can grind directly into it.
While it does seem like a great option for a lower budget I feel like that stalling was so painful to watch, but I can totally see plenty of people willing to deal with it.
I’ll keep my P64. If the DF64V jams that often then it is not long for this world - either because the motor will burn out, brushless or not, in short order or because I would throw it in the trash out of frustration.
@@coffeem8011 You are not wrong, but this type of decision-making usually will cost you in other ways. I would prefer to get a good reliable option within the budget instead of something that has marketing or design language of 'Just/almost as good and cost you much less'. Already had this type of talk with a friend who can't help but buy a DF64v4. Even tho he argued with me when I asked why he bought it, he later sold it at a loss after a few bags of beans and all the mods he could buy and install. He got more headaches than he did enjoy coffee in that very few months.
@@coffeem8011 That being said, I almost cried when I bought the P64, but have been happily enjoying my coffee since. I just paid for 078S to complete my milk drink and iced coffee end of the spectrum. Not that many cheaper options can grind superb filtered and great modern SOE at the same time(with ease of use, consistency, and longer-term stability).
Wow... Getting a stall is a total deal breaker imo! What's the point of adjustable RPM if it makes the grinder jam?! Seems like they need a recall or a V2 before going mass production! QUESTION: What would you favor, upgraded 64mm SSP burrs or stock DF83 burrs? I noticed it would pretty much be the same price so what would be best? Another thing is 83mm SSP is somehow so much more expensive than 64mm 😔
Would love to see a mechanical engineer take these grinders apart and figure out why the DF is jamming. Does it produce less torque at a given RPM? Does it weigh less overall leading to reduced angular momentum of the rotating parts? Or is it an issue of wobble as some other comments pointed out? Hmmm!
Yeah that is definitely outside my window of expertise. But one thing I have learned over time is wattage isn’t the end-all-be-all of a motors power, it’s the gearing. So lower ratios produce more low range torque and higher ratios less (if I’m remembering correctly). Consider the Niche Duo can grind green coffee at 540rpm from a cold start with a 130W motor, but this jams on 600rpm on light roasts with a 300W motor.
One is likely quoting 300W at max RPM (that’s why it stalls at low RPM) while the other is quoting 300W at min RPM. You make the guess which is which. P64 can go down to 300 RPM, while DF64V can only go down to 600 RPM. If both are taking min RPM to calculate 300W, P64 obviously has much higher torque. P64 goes up to 1400 RPM, while DF64V goes up to 1800 RPM. If both are taking max RPM to calculate 300W, P64 also obviously has higher torque. Conclusion: DF64V has low torque, and stalling CANNOT be fixed without overdriving the motor and sacrificing its lifespan.
Is there any discernible difference in taste at all when you compared the the same burrs and RPM in the Lagom P64 and DF64V? It would be interesting to know just how much the tight tolerances, better alignment, etc. of the P64 make in cup quality even if might be subtle.
I found it to be very very subtle in terms of differences in taste. Not something that everyone would likely notice. Both were aligned as well, and don’t think in the end the taste difference is significant, and what you’re paying for with the P64 is those tighter tolerances, more capable motor, and more material. All of which just makes it feel like a more premium piece of kit.
@@Sprometheus that’s interesting. I suppose you’re paying the premium for the fact that the P64 is just a pleasure to use and ultimately, that “it just works”.
@@RidwanP My speculation is that the lesser quality on parts and motor will increase the performance gap over time. Until the DF brakes or becomes unusable. The gradual decrease in taste might make it unnoticeable to many. The motor stalling is evidence that the specific RPM setting is mostly an aesthetic BS. OpitonO knew displaying specific RPM without RPM sensor is BS, and I don't mind that P64 sounds and feels like the RPM is very stable across range and roast levels. I feed it very light to medium roast.
@@JohnZ556 good point. I feel that there is a certain level of precision and cost in manufacturing, testing, and developing something to a high standard and it explains why most flat burr grinders with variable RPM motors are in the 4 figure range. The DF line of grinders have always been about in-the-cup quality first but with compromises to build and user experience. With Option-O, you also have an actual company with a proven track record and actual post-sales support from the people who made the grinder.
Also just wanted to add that I got this grinder about 2 mo ago. I only use light roasted coffee and I have not had a stall. But I only got start it and I never dump the entire 18gs at once. I like the grinder and the coffee that comes off it but I don't like the stand. It often shifts and I won't catch it until the grinds have overshot the dosing cup. Also I have noticed some random chirping of the burr set which concerns me some.
What is the scale range for espresso compared to P64? Which grinder can be used to set the grinding for espresso more precisely in order to dial in perfect espresso (sweet spot)?
I used df64v it never jamed even in low rpm and fine grinds It shut off because of safty the motor is capable of any thing really It is the manufacture idea to keep extra safty I think to ensure minimum maintenance if any things would cause any overload
It's mainly the DLC burrs that create the noise. It's not quiet, but totally bearable. Grinding is fairly fast, depending on RPM of course - 1400RPM takes about 9 seconds for 18g, so it's over quite quickly. Swapping burrs to SSP will help the noise.
Stalling is bad but it might just be a 120v issue, this is seen on other grinders. But this bad is something I don’t really wanna see. That said it dos seem like DF are getting closer and closer to where you don’t get to many annoyances but it’s probably still a couple of models away. Today I actually think the new king of 64mm will be zerno z1, with blind burrs, swappable prebreaker with different feedrate etc. I personally seen no convincing data that really proves RPM on many flat burrs do much of anything. The PSD show you basically just move it on the scale just like you do grinding coarser or finer..
according to Gagne, he's found that it's not universal as it depends on the burrs in use. I think it's going to have to be something burr makers provide as a data point as to whether varying RPM will create more or less fines (in either directtion) or whether it shifts the average grind size With conical burrs, it's slightly more predictable but also can vary with burr geometry.
I'm pretty skeptical that the differences are as huge as some people make it seem. Or at least I'm extremely skeptical that I could really tell a difference. Especially since I'm home roasting different, yet super high quality beans all the time.
Is there a noticeable taste difference… meaning more clarity, fruitiness,.. compared to Niche Zero? I’m asking since I’m thinking of getting a flat burr sidekick to my Niche… and what I wouldn’t want is to get a flat burr grinder that produces Niche like cups… which are comments that I keep reading for the likes of the Timemore Sculpture.
Maybe the difference in the DF jamming and the Langom not is simply the quality of internal parts. If it’s built with cheap internals you would need the grinder to shut off so it wouldn’t tear itself up. If the grinder has quality internals you can let it power through without worry.
Mine has only jammed when set to the lowest rpm and using a light roast. A little frustrating, but I prefer the higher rpm range anyway so it's not too big a deal
hm, lots of interesting benefits - but the the loudness and the potential for stalling are actually deal breakers, I guess. I acutally finally wanted to move to grinder with less or at least acceptable noise - not more!
@@MikeEdwards-j9g Yep. Can confirm now ;-) My former comment shows with a strange date...I bought mine almost two months ago. And the noise is negligible...helped by the fact that its quite efficient and fast. Almost double the speed than my Demoka 203! If I put the quaint wood lid on the bellow, I don't even bother my wife during online meetings!
hello Sprometheus, the shot of the talking head is very choppy, and the motion blur is wrong, since all the other shots look fine then i would assume that you know how to set correct shutter angle, I suspect you are shooting on a green screen and you had to up the shutter speed to make the keying easier and better, Now to solve this chopiness i would suggest that you add motion blur in post, it's extremely easy and would make the shot very smooth and natural, other than that the videos are cool. keep on doing what you are doing
Thanks for the review. All of the other videos I have seen on this had me wondering about the motor as that high pitch sound when it grinds makes me thing the gearing isn't up to snuff and is probably causing the stalls/sound.
@@mlpjunior I doubt that, sure the motor is quiet while it isn't doing any work. Putting beans in there requires a lot more torque. I've never once heard a burr set make that sound. Spro can probably switch in a different set of burrs to test
@@ThisIsFro I have this grinder sitting on my counter right now and I believe the sound originates at the burrs. I don't believe the sound is caused by the burrs, per se, but by the resonance of the aluminium body of the grinder and its other parts.
I’ve only had fleeting experiences with them thus far. But based on the shots I’ve had, it left me feeling underwhelmed based on the price to shot quality ratio. Personally I feel like beyond $2k theres a steep cliff of diminishing returns.
@@Sprometheus Was the shot better in an absolute sense compared to what you have now? Not meant to be inquisitive but would love to know if there's more in that part of the grinder space and reviews are few and far between...
If the DF64V checks already many boxes I am curious what the follow up of the grinder is. I think it will only get better seen the steps they made throughout the years.
I was very interested in this grinder but the stalling and easy of which it stalls makes this a no go for me. Too much competition at this price point. The variable RPM isn't worth the hassle
Generally I'd say both. Of course it's more likely on finer applications with lower RPMs, but as someone who likes to grind at low for filter I did have some instances of stalling when not hot starting and slowly dosing beans.
Does some one know which ecxact burr that is? my df64 Stock burr has the same geometry but without the coating and i could Not find out which exakt burr i have.
I haven’t had a chance to speak with Zerno yet, but they’re on my list. To be honest, there’s just so many grinders on the market right now and many of them offer the similar options, and it’s beginning to feel a bit repetitive so I’m not actively looking for more grinders to review right now.
They already did. The V2 of the DF83 has a ionizer to reduce static, similar to the ode, and it also has a fully metal catch cup instead of plastic. I love mine. It's a great grinder. The update seem to have kind of flown under the radar with all of the hype over the Timemore grinders and others hitting the market. It's a good time to be into coffee.
I was reading from Joe from espresso outlet that the jamming is a problem with pre production units. This batch coming now has a different controller board and shouldn’t be jamming like this
@@Sprometheus Apparently my comment didn't make it in..I looked at what Joe said again, and he said some units came with preproduction controllers. This new batch coming out will all have the new controller and should not jam
@classicrockonly They should be exchanging those for the new ones then, and selling these at a lower price. Prometheus you think you could ask them if they would exchange? Not many df64V reviews out there.
@@sebaba001 I’ll run this by MiiCoffee and see what they say. There are quite a few retailers for these DF grinders so they all may approach this differently.
I'm glad you mentioned some of the odd design characteristics regarding the dosing cup stand and lack of portafilter forks. That and the ugly light colored wood (should have been walnut), fixed power cord, easy jamming, and screechy sound, I opted for the Sculptor 078s. I really wanted to love the DF64V, but it just felt so "alpha" release to me. The Sculptor is also the initial release, but in my opinion much more polished and well thought out. BUT with all these faults, the v2 of the DF64V (coming soon I'm sure) could be spectacular! Great review TRS!
Would love to have an electric motor engineer weigh in on why motors stall on some, but not other variable speed grinders. I wonder if it’s a bite-sized thing which could be made known to consumers?
It's a matter of torque rather than wattage. Unless the manufacturer provides the torque of the motor, you can't tell how it will fare without testing.
The way the controller manages the motor has a lot to do with it. In the case of the DF64v I am aware that the first version in the DF64v was overly protective and they have released an updated version that allows the motor to ramp up and push through when it meets some resistance.
One is likely quoting 300W at max RPM (that’s why it stalls at low RPM) while the other is quoting 300W at min RPM. You make the guess which is which. P64 can go down to 300 RPM, while DF64V can only go down to 600 RPM. If both are taking min RPM to calculate 300W, P64 obviously has much higher torque. P64 goes up to 1400 RPM, while DF64V goes up to 1800 RPM. If both are taking max RPM to calculate 300W, P64 also obviously has higher torque. Conclusion: DF64V has low torque, and stalling CANNOT be fixed without overdriving the motor and sacrificing its lifespan.
@@IBCo. I doubt a manufacturer would undersell the peak specs of their motor's wattage. It's a known logic board issue which has been revised already. See my comment above.
@@sAmiZZle82 If you underatand the formula for calculating wattage, they are not “underselling” as you put it, because both will show the same wattage. The important factor here is torque, and again if you read my explanation, whichever method you use to calculate their Torque using RPM and Wattage, DF64V has much lower torque than the P64, which is why they have been stalling. The so called “Fix” is to overdrive the motor, which immensely decrease the lifespan of the motor. Many users in forums still encounter stalling at lower RPM with the new board if you are not aware. Why so? Because it is a small motor with low torque. There’s a limit to how far you can push it.
@@Sprometheus "the magic smoke came out" is slang for electronics dying more or less spectacularly. #29 is the serial number I know it happened to, but there's a few other people on EAF who had the same issue. Happened after stalling at low RPM usually.
DF64 is getting closer and closer to becoming a real P64 killer but still not good enough. I guess this is typical 'You get what you pay for'. I own P64 and it's kinda overpriced but also overengineered for a 64mm coffee grinder. The build quality, overall aesthetics, workflow, etc. is just too good for a 64mm flat burr coffee grinder lol. It should have been 83mm burr in that price range.
Seems DF64 are hit or miss when it comes to build quality. Some love theirs, others had issues maintaining alignment or grind adjustment. Looks like mfg is making slow improvements every iteration yet still pretty new to really know how these will hold up over years? With P64 can you just swap different burrs and no need to shim? If you've had your P64 for few years is it still like new in regard to tolerances? Thank you
I mean I think the Niche was the first widely popular single doser, but they didn’t invent that process. But it’s my opinion that the OG DF64 was brought to market because the Niche’s popularity but low stock. They saw a gap in the market and filled it.
@@Sprometheus I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to your comments about the strangeness of the little wooden platform that holds up the dosing cup (and the lack of forks). My first thought was, "wait, that's the same as the Niche and I don't think he's thought it was strange with the Niche."
@@ericanderson1753 oh, yeah on the Niche that platform sits on top of the base of the grinder and can be moved all at once. This one is completely unattached and just feels like an afterthought.
@@roloroko9523 it’s only confusing if you weren’t really paying attention that at 7:57 I was comparing it to the Lagom P64 which never stalls, and the issue with the DF64V stalls easily.
I bought the DF64v when it was announced and was extremely disappointed at the quality when it arrived last week. It worked for one dose, and then died, and now its a paper weight - and it sounds like they had a problem with the production run and I'm not alone. This is a low quality piece of kit. It's cheap, but it also feels cheap. Not recommended at all.
Yeah. I don’t love that, and worry a lot of jams may have a detrimental effect on the lifespan of the motor, but it does seem to release tension pretty quick after a jam. But the Lagom has really nailed the low rpm grinding.
@@navidqowsi5618 Having read many pages of the truly massive P64 thread on the Home-Barista forum, I can't say I share your "second to none" perception of Option o's customer service... which isn't intended to criticize them, more to compliment Vel (the designer/engineer of the Zerno Z1) for making himself so accessible to his customers (and implementing their feedback when feasible). I'm biased though- my Zerno Z1 (the new version with Blind Burrs, Ionizer, etc.) should arrive by the end of next month. Personally, I never found the P64 to be all that compelling a prospect at roughly 1800 USD (in the USA) given its 64mm burrs and variable rpm as it's only standout feature. (Mine would probably be permanently parked at 500ish rpm if I owned one anyways) I find the P100 a much more compelling prospect personally- it's just outside my budget.
@Zirassi zerno is definitely a good grinder , however it is not priced that much cheaper then the p64 and being without rpm, this will be a deal breaker for some who want to play with rpm settings. Can't go wrong with either
Stalling sucks and I love playing with the RPM on my real p64 (lagom). Which brings me to the main point, I never support these cheap-copy companies that do nothing but come up with a worse cheap option of a really good product.
I understand that point of view, and in a lot ways you get what you pay for. But I also know not everyone has the disposable income to throw at a coffee grinder. Overall I like the idea of options like this bringing features to a broader market, and likely in the process making it less expensive for everyone and likely pushing more premium brands to consider the benefits of pricing accessibility.
@@Sprometheus sure I get that. When I started into the coffee rabbit hole I didn’t have that kind of money and just bought what I could second hand. But there’s also a lot of cheaper grinders that don’t just try to copy 1:1 and are really good too. I’d prefer one of those just because I don’t like that business model. What I like though is coming up with a better version of the original…that’s all cool. But invent/improve something.
What good is the p64 when they can't or won't even produce enough for the number of people that want to buy them. I would have happily paid 1800 for one a year ago but I'm not sitting around waiting for them or for someone to sell on Facebook. Now I paid 600 to a company that is gracious enough to accept my order. I don't even care if it's going to have a shorter lifespan.
I’m getting tired of hearing about all these DF grinders. Didn’t know it sounded that bad or that it stalled so thanks for this. I’m just gonna buy the P64 and call it a day
There’s a lot of grinders out there that’s for sure. But when companies look to create something similar (in this case the P64) it’s likely a race to reduce the retail cost to stand out, and in that process issues can definitely arise. In the end it’s not a bad grinder, but the stalling is a flaw that some people won’t want to deal with.
@@Sprometheus thanks for the reply and video. I get it I just think they could have done better although I dont know if Turin is even a real company. I think this is just another classic example of you pay for what you get.
I wouldn't buy this grinder for any reason other than that silly pedestal (or whatever that chunk of wood is called) propping up the dosing cup. That's such a bad design.
Interesting! I saw a number of people switch from their Timemore pledges to get a DF64V with the argument that it was a more reliable and "known" product. Seems like the DF64V motor (for now at least...could be revised in future models) isn't really delivering. I have also seen a few people online with issues of motors burning out in the first few days.
Oh wow, I don’t follow forums and groups as they tend to be pretty toxic so this is news to me. I’d argue Timemore is pretty reliable brand, even if it’s their first motorized grinder. I also find the unique design of the Sculptor a bit more appealing as it’s something a little different. But to each their own. In the end I think they both produce solid coffee, and hoping those who have outlier issues are made whole.
@@Sprometheus Thanks for all your reviews and content, I like your presentation. The more chill vibe where you're not always stuffing SSP this and that into everything and doing 15 blind taste tests is nice (not that that is bad either!). :)
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I recently got my DF64V, largely based on this review, and I am very very happy with it. They seem to have fixed the motor issue as I haven't had a single stall or stutter even doing a cold start at 600 RPM with a light roast Ethiopian bean. Also I don't have much static on mine and the grinding is relatively clean.
You should definitely try some ssp burrs now Dimitri!
I will in time. To be honest the stock burrs are very capable. I like thm.@@7Miralas
Same. Absolutely no stalls.
@@SnapshotTube2how s noise level ?
@@asselinpower moderate. At lower speeds it's very quiet and at high speeds it's louder. It's quiet enough that I don't wake my wife and kids up in the morning.
00:00 Intro
1:06 Notable Features
2:34 Basic Grinding Performance
4:03 RPM Setting Benefits
5:13 RPM Quirks and Downsides
6:04 Dosing Cup Quirks
6:27 Lagom P64 Comparison
8:27 Final Thoughts
9:39 Sponsored Squarespace Promotion
64mm grinders have a huge advantage in that the burr options are much cheaper than 83mm. I would love to see you compare df64 gen2 w/ SSP MP, df64v with DLC and df83v2 with standard Itamill steel burrs as they all start to be in comparable price ranges with those burrs. If df64 + SSP MP tastes as good as df83 + standard burrs, that would be a HUGE advantage in favor of df64 gen2.
Now the Timemore 078s is about to ship. There could be an interesting 4 way comparison. Niche Duo VS Timemore 078s VS DF64V (or DF83) . They are all on very similar price range.
That will be popcorn time! Pun intended.
With stock burrs the difference is going to be mute, it’s more about build, use and aesthetics.
These all seem to have their quirks, the DF needs modding on DF83 for other then espresso usage and it’s designed to slow the speed of the grind down and mitigate static, the effect of that will always be a bit more regrinding and exchange. The 078 range is designed as dual purpose the effect of that is lack of granularity on a single turn dial and it’s hopper is ode v1 flawed and it’s burr access is a nightmare but seem to be the lowest retention of the bunch. Then there is the duo with easier burr swap but it has no ioniser and knocker meaning more retention then the Sculpture and switching back and forth in grind is not as straightforward so it’s more suitable for single purpose as either brew or espresso.
Point is the different grinders are going to fit different audiences. The DF being the most catered for espresso and Sculpture catered mostly for brewed and dual purpose and Niche somewhere in between in an either or.
Charlie Moritz youtube review of 078s says it produces channeling and spurting shots nearly EVERY time. He thinks there is a design defect
@@tagheuer02 He is the only one reporting that issues… In other words he jumps conclusion on a one sample. There is a chance his burrs simply are defective this happens for all burr makers and you can’t always see it with the naked eye, small micron differences on the burr can lead to a burr being good and not so fantastic.
While most seem to agree the cup performance is somewhere in between a conical and a flat. Don’t make it flawed.
His entire methodology is absolutely worthless… my eyes hurt when I watched it… him trying to back his flawed idea by sifting with a kruve was head shaking to say the least. A kruve can tell you nothing about the PSD.
@@mikni4069kyle rosell also mentioned it was channeling before burr seasoning. When he got the actual 078s before be was testing with a 078 with the 078s burrs and didn't notice that. Weird.
Thanks for the review! I have watched through many times and I have put in an order for one of these!
I just want to note that when you measure dB levels, it's always good to also state the distance that it was measured at. Typically when measuring sound with a meter, you want to be 3ft or 1m from the source of the noise.
Thanks again, I enjoy the videos you make!
Apparently with the earlier DF64V they had the control board set a bit too conservative to protect against actually stalling or jamming up. Espresso outlet sells the updated board or you can get it from them if you bought the grinder from them i believe.
My p64 has stalled for light roast espresso at the lowest rpm settings but its more like a hesitation where it resumes after a fraction of a second. Mine may be even older when the min rpm was actually even lower at 200rpm!
I think it's the stock burrs in the df64v that are the reason why it's so loud and shrieky the MP SSP burrs are also a bit like that but probably not quite as annoying ha. Mizen burrs in the p64 are actually pretty nice sounding in comparison.
4:40 wow that's a BIG visual difference for just changing the RPM I didn't think it was that apparent. It kinda looks like you're getting more larger particles at lower RPM. It sounds like with this grinder you did end up noticing similar taste difference with RPM like you did with the P64 test in your other video where you tend to get more flavour clarity at lower RPM and more body at higher RPM, I found this is generally the case with the (three different) variable RPM grinders I've tried.
I believe the wood platform is for function and pure aesthetics. It looks nice with the lid on top.
I definitely can see it being an aesthetic choice to tie it all together, but from a usability standpoint it’s just odd.
I thought it looks super cheap and makes the grinder look cheaper overall. I am sure it's only there to avoid any potential patent right issues.
@@Sprometheus I mean you now have a stand for your legos to watch you make espressos. 😂
The dosing cup on the DF83 rattles around from the motor vibration (when using the portafilter holder) a wood stand eliminates this vibration issue. Personally I like the wood block as I always dose into a dosing cup.
I heard from Joe Kolb at Espresso Outlet that the grinder was noisier with portafilter forks, so they opted to remove them to be quieter, so that meant they had to find someting to raise the cup up to the grinder. So I think it is purely a functional choice with the result being poor aesthetics. Would have been slightly better in walnut, but still an odd choice. I can only imagine the noise being the PF rattling in the mounts causing a noise.🤷
I pre-ordered a df64v. I had it not even three weeks when it died. (not sure if mine had a bad control unit).
So, going budget definitely means you're gambling with these kinds of things . The team from espresso outlet was very helpful with returning it though.
That's a bummer!
The crazy thing is that $600 is considered budget friendly. Thats still a lot of money for a coffee grinder and it should serve for many years with zero issues.
@@brindlebeard it's budget friendly for the features it offers, directly targeting the P64. In the grander scheme of home coffee grinders, it's midrange.
@@brindlebeard So true!
@@brindlebeard I agree. My 10 year old Rancilio Rocky was less than the Df64V and back then considered a mid level grinder without pressures like stalling at hard beans.
Recently change over to the Lucca DF64 as my daily driver. I have been trying to use a Ceado E5P as my single dose grinder, for the past 2 years. It was a pandemic buy. The Lucca DF64, for my daily espresso, for me has done an outstanding job so far. Grinder options over the past few years, has greatly increased in the sub $700 range. The Ceado has been relegated to grinding pour overs. My long term concerns are that the DF64, will not last in the long term, either motor or switch will give out. Yes, I would like to have a P64, but can't justify the cost, but you just never know. Thanks
Thanks for the review. What's interesting is reviews in the past have mentioned the plastic cup feels cheap, and it seems they listened with the metal dosing cup. However many users love the plastic as they can see if the grounds are level in the portafilter. The variable rpm is probably frustrating for companies as reviews of other grinders in the past will complain if the speed is too fast (too many fines) or too slow (takes longer to grind). I'm sure there is a speed that optimizes a certain burr set, but the manufacturer is stuck with getting review dings for a speed if they don't make it variable. (like the 330 rpm Niche Zero complaints are how long it takes to grind 30 grams - does that really matter? The conical burrs do matter, but the speed in relation to how long it takes? If the uniformity of ground size distribution is the goal does the speed at which it gets there matter? ) For me it seems increasing the RPM on the flat burrs is trying to reproduce the fuller body (muddiness) you get with conical burrs, then again it is a range that affects texture and taste.
Lagoom P-64 for me. A wonderful review, fun and informative. The stalling of DF64S is the main reason I wouldn’t even think of buying it.
I spy with my little eye a new review in the near future. Looking forward to it.
I recall hearing somewhere that the stalling is a safety feature, to avoid grinder damage. But it's clearly too sensitive our of the box.
Yeah I mean I'm glad to notices the jam, and quickly shuts the motor off. But it seem sit needs a bit more torque.
Jamming or stalling is not a safety feature. It shortens the motor life.
The grinder needed more R&D prior to going into production.
Dosing cup to portafilter has helped me a ton with consistency. Will never grind into the portafilter again.
Both can work equally as well. I marginally prefer using a dosing funnel and grinding straight into the portafilter. I think wdt works slightly better in the portafilter vs the dosing cup but there's not a lot in it.
@@ryanburr8419 100% Agree with you. Grinding directly into portefilter is better if you have a dosing funnel only.
Nice shirt, odd crossover I wasn't expecting on a Friday afternoon 😉
Looks like the stalling was due to a control board issue. Do you have any plans to re-test with a replacement?
This is certainly a reason for me to consider purchasing the unit now that the only major downside is fixed. I certainly don’t mind if a porta filter or dosing cup doesn’t fit on the machine, I like the wood trim esthetics with black. Based on the reviews of the stock burrs I’ll choose it over the DF83 too.
One thing about your grinder videos i truly appreciate is your “tight shot” of the burr when spinning. There seems to be a correlation between build quality and grind consistency with drive shaft wobble. 7:32 you can see how the DF64 wobbles a lot more than the Lagom. The wobble will be seen better in half video speed. Can you really align a burr set properly with that much wobble?
This wobble reminds me of your Weber Key video, where you can clearly see that the drive shaft wobbles.
THe *nuts may not be concentric -- this can be so independent of the alignment ceiling
@@tobiasbouma4071 Thank you for pointing that out. You are not wrong. I realize that now that you mentioned it, the burr alignment may be independent of that wobble. Be that as it may, it shows lack of attention to detail. For the price point, I guess that some may look past that.
UGH.
It seemed to have it all: small single dose, anti-popcorning, variable RPM, 300W motor, a good de-clumper at last, magnetically removable chute for cleaning, easily accessible burrs, SSP-level set, LOW RETENTION. Then just when the going gets good, something unsavoury hits the unsuspecting like a cool seagull on a clear blue day. Again I have to worry about the motor stalling because it might blow out. And I was so ready. This grinder was planned as a proper initiation for me in diving into light roast flavours without compromise, as the specs had so conveniently suggested. My foray into the world of flat burrs and away from the land of Breville. But... Smeagol wantses to spend money on the precious... good grinder still isn't it? GGGHH.
Anyway.
Some other reviewer actually mentioned that one of the magnets fell off and he had to superglue it back on the chute, which begs the question just how shoddy craftsmanship the rest of the grinder might have that we don't know of yet. I'm gonna try holding out, let it soak some more on the market so more experience can be had -and watch the price go up even more.- Thanks for covering the DF64V.
How do you like it compared for the timemore 64s?
Nice video Spro! Where are you usually setting RPM for espresso on your p64? Also, have you checked out the Mizen burrs? Looks like you might have the SSP MP in there now? Would be great to hear your POV on the Mizen burrs.
Just to try and clarify the jamming for myself… I would use RPM the same as you - lower for pour over and higher for espresso to achieve clarity and complexity respectively.
Are you still experiencing frequent jamming with coarser grinds at the low RPM?
Or is the jam more often occurring when you drop the RPM for espresso grind?
Eg how often were you jamming a 600rpm light roast for pour over?
Great video as always so thanks!
My grinder is stalling with light roasts even on filter settings if I try low RPMs (which is the primary use case for low RPMs)
Thank you for your review! Def was waiting to hear from you before thinking of getting one. I’m curious if they’ll come out with a “V2” soon, something I’ve noticed in the DF lime
Funny with the Lagom P64, also with a 300w DC motor, I only ever got MINI Stalls that quickly recover and resume grinding after a fraction of a second, at like 200-400RPM maybe (RPM setting of 1-2 out of 9, just for really light roasts at espresso setting) which is much lower than even the DF64v CAN GO.
I think the SSP cast burrs seemed to be worse for stalling/hiccups on mine (had a stall happen on RPM setting of 3 which never happened with other burrs), with the Mizen burrs strangely it seems less prone to stalling even though they're a similar design, but maybe I just haven't been doing espresso at so low RPM with those.
I believe the older P64s min RPM was 200RPM, so on your model it might actually be 200RPM not 300 RPM you're grinding at! They seemed to change it in their manual and website at some point to 300RPM. That's one downside of not having the actual RPM numbers displayed on the grinder.
I noticed there's a lot of similar things on the DF64v (the anti-popcorn thing), dial and power button placement, adjustment knob, it is missing the ball bearing a lot of the fancier grinders have though. I kinda like the digital RPM display, and jumps / settings are small enough, but the analogue 'stepless' RPM dial on the P64 is nice to use and probably more reliable long term, although you might not know the exact RPM without the quickguide as a reference :p
Very clear review. Thank you! I have one question. How do you address a stall (jam?) and does this require starting over with a new load of beans? Have never had this problem with my 12-year old grinder, but am curious about the process of clearing jammed beans and continuing (or starting over).
Thank you, and good question.
There’s two ways to go about it, the easy way that works about 70% of the time is just coarsening up the grind and hitting the power again (after unplugging and replugging it back in). This often will grind it out and you can start over.
In some cases I had to open it all the way up and manually clean out the grinds and bean shards that jammed in the space between the burrs and the chamber wall. Then the process is the same, plug it back in, and grind out any remaining bits, hit it with a bellows and you’re back in business.
@@Sprometheus Many thanks for the reply. Those solutions make perfect sense, and will keep that info in mind with regard to a future grinder purchase. For me, a sufficiently powerful motor might actually be worth the extra $$. Thank you. Also always appreciate your Decibel meter 'sides'; loudness (and frequency) as a function of grinding time for a 'double' a big one for me - and all made clear this way. Very useful.
Torn between this and DF83, similar price.. my first grinder.. and now i dont know what to go for :P
Did you have any problems with the declumper? I've heard that on previous models, that was an issue.
By issues do you mean it not de-clumping? I didn’t notice an issue with the grinds texture, was pretty happy with that. It is nice to have close access to it with the removable chute, which may be one of the reasons they made that choice.
REASON FOR STALLING:
The DF64V has a small and low torque motor.
The Lagom P64 is also 300W but at almost twice the size, with no stalling issues. You cannot beat physics and create a smaller sized motor with the same torque at the same RPM. The sacrifice here on the DF64V is in torque. Wattage = Torque x RPM
The DF64V can only handle light roasts at high RPM, which defeats the purpose of Variable RPM (to reduce fines by decreasing RPM)
The torque should be the same at least if you compare the specs. Same RPM, same Watts equals same Torque. Unless there is a different gear ratio, which we don't know.
As the equation you have listed if both have the same power (300W) and same RPM. They in theory should have the same torque?
@@tcl7563 One is likely quoting 300W at max RPM (that’s why it stalls at low RPM) while the other is quoting 300W at min RPM. You make the guess which is which.
P64 can go down to 300 RPM, while DF64V can only go down to 600 RPM. If both are taking min RPM to calculate 300W, P64 obviously has much higher torque.
P64 goes up to 1400 RPM, while DF64V goes up to 1800 RPM. If both are taking max RPM to calculate 300W, P64 also obviously has higher torque.
Conclusion: DF64V has low torque, and stalling CANNOT be fixed without overdriving the motor and sacrificing its lifespan.
Can you share the capacity of the grinder and dosing cup? Would I be able to get 60-70g of beans in(with bellows in place) for a pour over?
You can fit 60-70g in with the bellows on, but the dosing cup only fits about 40-50 so you’ll need to stop, empty it and start again. Or you can remove the base and cup and depending on the pour over you can grind directly into it.
While it does seem like a great option for a lower budget I feel like that stalling was so painful to watch, but I can totally see plenty of people willing to deal with it.
They have updated the control board so no more stalling
@@sickhcivc Do you happen to have a source for this? Very interested in this grinder and this might just convince me to buy one.
How does it compare with the Niche duo, the price in the UK is quite similar if you buy the duo with one set of burrs
DF dose cup always rattle madly in previous model, that is the reason for separate base. I think.
I’ll keep my P64. If the DF64V jams that often then it is not long for this world - either because the motor will burn out, brushless or not, in short order or because I would throw it in the trash out of frustration.
P64 is just much better built and has better quality components.
I'd rather have the lower quality grinder that almost does the same thing and with a shorter lifespan if I can actually get my hands on it
@@coffeem8011 You are not wrong, but this type of decision-making usually will cost you in other ways.
I would prefer to get a good reliable option within the budget instead of something that has marketing or design language of 'Just/almost as good and cost you much less'.
Already had this type of talk with a friend who can't help but buy a DF64v4. Even tho he argued with me when I asked why he bought it, he later sold it at a loss after a few bags of beans and all the mods he could buy and install. He got more headaches than he did enjoy coffee in that very few months.
@@coffeem8011 That being said, I almost cried when I bought the P64, but have been happily enjoying my coffee since. I just paid for 078S to complete my milk drink and iced coffee end of the spectrum.
Not that many cheaper options can grind superb filtered and great modern SOE at the same time(with ease of use, consistency, and longer-term stability).
great video, do you have any thoughts comparing df64v with niche zero?
Wow... Getting a stall is a total deal breaker imo! What's the point of adjustable RPM if it makes the grinder jam?! Seems like they need a recall or a V2 before going mass production!
QUESTION: What would you favor, upgraded 64mm SSP burrs or stock DF83 burrs? I noticed it would pretty much be the same price so what would be best? Another thing is 83mm SSP is somehow so much more expensive than 64mm 😔
I thought about this. I went with the df64v. They recently updated the control board so it does not stall any more
Would love to see a mechanical engineer take these grinders apart and figure out why the DF is jamming. Does it produce less torque at a given RPM? Does it weigh less overall leading to reduced angular momentum of the rotating parts? Or is it an issue of wobble as some other comments pointed out? Hmmm!
Yeah that is definitely outside my window of expertise. But one thing I have learned over time is wattage isn’t the end-all-be-all of a motors power, it’s the gearing. So lower ratios produce more low range torque and higher ratios less (if I’m remembering correctly). Consider the Niche Duo can grind green coffee at 540rpm from a cold start with a 130W motor, but this jams on 600rpm on light roasts with a 300W motor.
Speed controlled motors always loose torque at low rpm, especially dc motors. Good controllers have boost features to counteract that.
One is likely quoting 300W at max RPM (that’s why it stalls at low RPM) while the other is quoting 300W at min RPM. You make the guess which is which.
P64 can go down to 300 RPM, while DF64V can only go down to 600 RPM. If both are taking min RPM to calculate 300W, P64 obviously has much higher torque.
P64 goes up to 1400 RPM, while DF64V goes up to 1800 RPM. If both are taking max RPM to calculate 300W, P64 also obviously has higher torque.
Conclusion: DF64V has low torque, and stalling CANNOT be fixed without overdriving the motor and sacrificing its lifespan.
I'm still looking forward to your Varia scale review! 🤞
i was wondering if you will try the Mizen burrs for the P64 , thanks !
Is there any discernible difference in taste at all when you compared the the same burrs and RPM in the Lagom P64 and DF64V? It would be interesting to know just how much the tight tolerances, better alignment, etc. of the P64 make in cup quality even if might be subtle.
I found it to be very very subtle in terms of differences in taste. Not something that everyone would likely notice. Both were aligned as well, and don’t think in the end the taste difference is significant, and what you’re paying for with the P64 is those tighter tolerances, more capable motor, and more material. All of which just makes it feel like a more premium piece of kit.
@@Sprometheus that’s interesting. I suppose you’re paying the premium for the fact that the P64 is just a pleasure to use and ultimately, that “it just works”.
@@RidwanP My speculation is that the lesser quality on parts and motor will increase the performance gap over time. Until the DF brakes or becomes unusable. The gradual decrease in taste might make it unnoticeable to many.
The motor stalling is evidence that the specific RPM setting is mostly an aesthetic BS. OpitonO knew displaying specific RPM without RPM sensor is BS, and I don't mind that P64 sounds and feels like the RPM is very stable across range and roast levels. I feed it very light to medium roast.
@@JohnZ556 good point. I feel that there is a certain level of precision and cost in manufacturing, testing, and developing something to a high standard and it explains why most flat burr grinders with variable RPM motors are in the 4 figure range.
The DF line of grinders have always been about in-the-cup quality first but with compromises to build and user experience.
With Option-O, you also have an actual company with a proven track record and actual post-sales support from the people who made the grinder.
Also just wanted to add that I got this grinder about 2 mo ago. I only use light roasted coffee and I have not had a stall. But I only got start it and I never dump the entire 18gs at once.
I like the grinder and the coffee that comes off it but I don't like the stand. It often shifts and I won't catch it until the grinds have overshot the dosing cup.
Also I have noticed some random chirping of the burr set which concerns me some.
What RPM do you run? That seems to be the most important variable.
would you prefer this over the timemore 064s?
No, personally prefer the 064S. It’s espresso is very nice, and I prefer the overall design and workflow.
What is the scale range for espresso compared to P64? Which grinder can be used to set the grinding for espresso more precisely in order to dial in perfect espresso (sweet spot)?
I have this grinder. It is very precise and easy to create repeatable shots
I used df64v it never jamed even in low rpm and fine grinds
It shut off because of safty the motor is capable of any thing really
It is the manufacture idea to keep extra safty I think to ensure minimum maintenance if any things would cause any overload
Mine stalls in low RPMs on medium (filter) grinds. I use light roasts.
Looking forward to that a53 review :)
Coming in the next couple weeks. Have had it for a bit, so far been enjoying it.
Hey everyone, when grinding finer you mentioned “loud screeching sounds”. How fine is it at what rpm? How's its noise compared to Niche Zero?
It's mainly the DLC burrs that create the noise. It's not quiet, but totally bearable. Grinding is fairly fast, depending on RPM of course - 1400RPM takes about 9 seconds for 18g, so it's over quite quickly. Swapping burrs to SSP will help the noise.
Stalling is bad but it might just be a 120v issue, this is seen on other grinders. But this bad is something I don’t really wanna see.
That said it dos seem like DF are getting closer and closer to where you don’t get to many annoyances but it’s probably still a couple of models away.
Today I actually think the new king of 64mm will be zerno z1, with blind burrs, swappable prebreaker with different feedrate etc. I personally seen no convincing data that really proves RPM on many flat burrs do much of anything. The PSD show you basically just move it on the scale just like you do grinding coarser or finer..
according to Gagne, he's found that it's not universal as it depends on the burrs in use. I think it's going to have to be something burr makers provide as a data point as to whether varying RPM will create more or less fines (in either directtion) or whether it shifts the average grind size
With conical burrs, it's slightly more predictable but also can vary with burr geometry.
I'm pretty skeptical that the differences are as huge as some people make it seem. Or at least I'm extremely skeptical that I could really tell a difference. Especially since I'm home roasting different, yet super high quality beans all the time.
Would you be able to let me know where you bought your espresso cups from and the name of your decibel app?
Yeah the espresso cups are from www.odakahome.com and the decibel app is called Decibel X.
Is there a noticeable taste difference… meaning more clarity, fruitiness,.. compared to Niche Zero?
I’m asking since I’m thinking of getting a flat burr sidekick to my Niche… and what I wouldn’t want is to get a flat burr grinder that produces Niche like cups… which are comments that I keep reading for the likes of the Timemore Sculpture.
This should be different to the NZ, and you always have the option of swapping out burrs.
Would love to know if the Zerno Z1 is worth the extra $ for the better build quality and alignment. But unfortunately lose RPM control.
How does the DF64v compare to a Timemore Sculptor 078(s)?
How would you compare the dlc burrs to the Omni burrs of the p64? Do you prefer one over the other?
How is the tolerances and alignment ?
Thank you for the review. Enjoyed it.
Maybe the difference in the DF jamming and the Langom not is simply the quality of internal parts. If it’s built with cheap internals you would need the grinder to shut off so it wouldn’t tear itself up. If the grinder has quality internals you can let it power through without worry.
Many thanks for this.
Of course, thanks for watching.
Thank you my friend.
Of course! Thanks for watching and have a great weekend.
@@Sprometheus - Have yourself a great Memorial weekend.
Mine has only jammed when set to the lowest rpm and using a light roast. A little frustrating, but I prefer the higher rpm range anyway so it's not too big a deal
Yeah I think it’s one of those things that may not effect everyone the same way.
Stalling at lowest rpm for filter or espresso setting?
@@davidlogan2682 espresso
Do you think that there will be a P83? I'm guessing not as it'd cannibalise the P100 market.
hm, lots of interesting benefits - but the the loudness and the potential for stalling are actually deal breakers, I guess. I acutally finally wanted to move to grinder with less or at least acceptable noise - not more!
The stalling was a result of a faulty controller board that over protected the motor. They fixed that issue and the stalling went away
@@MikeEdwards-j9g Yep. Can confirm now ;-) My former comment shows with a strange date...I bought mine almost two months ago. And the noise is negligible...helped by the fact that its quite efficient and fast. Almost double the speed than my Demoka 203! If I put the quaint wood lid on the bellow, I don't even bother my wife during online meetings!
The moment of truth.. thank you
The moment has arrived!
I'm loving this grinder so far
Does it stall the same with ssp and dlc burrs?
I see a la spaz back there that looks an awful lot like mine :)
It’s been a fun machine to work with so far. I plan on sharing my thoughts on it in the next couple weeks.
@@Sprometheus heard it uses similar tech as kees van der westen idro matic?
I've had a plumbed in one for 10 years. Works like a tank!
Looks like a good budget option.
I'd say so. Every grinder has its flaws, and this one can be worked around if need be.
Would like to see you identify the RPM it ground at in a blind taste test.
hello Sprometheus, the shot of the talking head is very choppy, and the motion blur is wrong, since all the other shots look fine then i would assume that you know how to set correct shutter angle, I suspect you are shooting on a green screen and you had to up the shutter speed to make the keying easier and better, Now to solve this chopiness i would suggest that you add motion blur in post, it's extremely easy and would make the shot very smooth and natural, other than that the videos are cool. keep on doing what you are doing
Thanks for the review. All of the other videos I have seen on this had me wondering about the motor as that high pitch sound when it grinds makes me thing the gearing isn't up to snuff and is probably causing the stalls/sound.
The sound is coming from the burrs as they grind, not the motor. The motor is almost inaudible
@@mlpjunior I doubt that, sure the motor is quiet while it isn't doing any work. Putting beans in there requires a lot more torque. I've never once heard a burr set make that sound. Spro can probably switch in a different set of burrs to test
@@ThisIsFro I have this grinder sitting on my counter right now and I believe the sound originates at the burrs. I don't believe the sound is caused by the burrs, per se, but by the resonance of the aluminium body of the grinder and its other parts.
Hey random, but I love the shirt! I got the same one!!
Can you please review the La Spaziale in the background… pretty please 🙏🏾
That one is in progress right now.
@@Sprometheus awesome!
I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Kafatek grinders.
I’ve only had fleeting experiences with them thus far. But based on the shots I’ve had, it left me feeling underwhelmed based on the price to shot quality ratio. Personally I feel like beyond $2k theres a steep cliff of diminishing returns.
@@Sprometheus Was the shot better in an absolute sense compared to what you have now? Not meant to be inquisitive but would love to know if there's more in that part of the grinder space and reviews are few and far between...
If the DF64V checks already many boxes I am curious what the follow up of the grinder is. I think it will only get better seen the steps they made throughout the years.
Thank you, very helpful 👍
I was very interested in this grinder but the stalling and easy of which it stalls makes this a no go for me. Too much competition at this price point. The variable RPM isn't worth the hassle
Did it stall when brewing on low rpm for filter or just espresso? (Assuming light roast)
Generally I'd say both. Of course it's more likely on finer applications with lower RPMs, but as someone who likes to grind at low for filter I did have some instances of stalling when not hot starting and slowly dosing beans.
Does some one know which ecxact burr that is? my df64 Stock burr has the same geometry but without the coating and i could Not find out which exakt burr i have.
It is not the same geometry. This has burrs that are similar in design and performance to SSP High Uniformity
Where do you get your beautiful cups from?
I get them from a friend in Israel www.odakahome.com
@@Sprometheus That’s crazy because I live in Israel and saw these for sale, and thought to myself your cups look a lot like these! Cheers
What's the story with the La Spaz back there?
Interesting to note that even a $600 grinder can stall!
4k grinder can stall too
which is eg1
@@jayha8031 🤦
Have you had the chance to compare it to the Zerno?
I haven’t had a chance to speak with Zerno yet, but they’re on my list. To be honest, there’s just so many grinders on the market right now and many of them offer the similar options, and it’s beginning to feel a bit repetitive so I’m not actively looking for more grinders to review right now.
@@Sprometheus well said, looks and style seems to be the only +
Will they improve the 83 version?
No clue on that one, but it seems many of their early grinders are on a V2 so I wouldn’t be surprised if it did.
They already did. The V2 of the DF83 has a ionizer to reduce static, similar to the ode, and it also has a fully metal catch cup instead of plastic. I love mine. It's a great grinder. The update seem to have kind of flown under the radar with all of the hype over the Timemore grinders and others hitting the market. It's a good time to be into coffee.
I was reading from Joe from espresso outlet that the jamming is a problem with pre production units. This batch coming now has a different controller board and shouldn’t be jamming like this
Not sure about that. Mine is not pre-production as far as I know and has a serial number.
@@Sprometheus Apparently my comment didn't make it in..I looked at what Joe said again, and he said some units came with preproduction controllers. This new batch coming out will all have the new controller and should not jam
@classicrockonly They should be exchanging those for the new ones then, and selling these at a lower price. Prometheus you think you could ask them if they would exchange? Not many df64V reviews out there.
@@sebaba001 I’ll run this by MiiCoffee and see what they say. There are quite a few retailers for these DF grinders so they all may approach this differently.
@@Sprometheus cool!
I’m excited to see your lucca a53 review! I’ve had one for 3 years and wanted to hear some influencer folk’s opinions
I'm glad you mentioned some of the odd design characteristics regarding the dosing cup stand and lack of portafilter forks. That and the ugly light colored wood (should have been walnut), fixed power cord, easy jamming, and screechy sound, I opted for the Sculptor 078s. I really wanted to love the DF64V, but it just felt so "alpha" release to me. The Sculptor is also the initial release, but in my opinion much more polished and well thought out. BUT with all these faults, the v2 of the DF64V (coming soon I'm sure) could be spectacular! Great review TRS!
Would love to have an electric motor engineer weigh in on why motors stall on some, but not other variable speed grinders. I wonder if it’s a bite-sized thing which could be made known to consumers?
It's a matter of torque rather than wattage. Unless the manufacturer provides the torque of the motor, you can't tell how it will fare without testing.
The way the controller manages the motor has a lot to do with it. In the case of the DF64v I am aware that the first version in the DF64v was overly protective and they have released an updated version that allows the motor to ramp up and push through when it meets some resistance.
One is likely quoting 300W at max RPM (that’s why it stalls at low RPM) while the other is quoting 300W at min RPM. You make the guess which is which.
P64 can go down to 300 RPM, while DF64V can only go down to 600 RPM. If both are taking min RPM to calculate 300W, P64 obviously has much higher torque.
P64 goes up to 1400 RPM, while DF64V goes up to 1800 RPM. If both are taking max RPM to calculate 300W, P64 also obviously has higher torque.
Conclusion: DF64V has low torque, and stalling CANNOT be fixed without overdriving the motor and sacrificing its lifespan.
@@IBCo. I doubt a manufacturer would undersell the peak specs of their motor's wattage. It's a known logic board issue which has been revised already. See my comment above.
@@sAmiZZle82 If you underatand the formula for calculating wattage, they are not “underselling” as you put it, because both will show the same wattage. The important factor here is torque, and again if you read my explanation, whichever method you use to calculate their Torque using RPM and Wattage, DF64V has much lower torque than the P64, which is why they have been stalling.
The so called “Fix” is to overdrive the motor, which immensely decrease the lifespan of the motor. Many users in forums still encounter stalling at lower RPM with the new board if you are not aware. Why so? Because it is a small motor with low torque. There’s a limit to how far you can push it.
screech, jamb and pedestal are worth spending much more to avoid… seem these can be avoided, other that “stealing” sales from is big brother, which if
Sounds like they should have wound the motor to be max torque at 600 rpm or so. No need for adjustment.
the reports of magic smoke coming out on early models are a bit worrying
Smoke I’d be worried about, thus far no smoke and my serial number is 0007
@@Sprometheus "the magic smoke came out" is slang for electronics dying more or less spectacularly. #29 is the serial number I know it happened to, but there's a few other people on EAF who had the same issue. Happened after stalling at low RPM usually.
DF64 is getting closer and closer to becoming a real P64 killer but still not good enough. I guess this is typical 'You get what you pay for'. I own P64 and it's kinda overpriced but also overengineered for a 64mm coffee grinder. The build quality, overall aesthetics, workflow, etc. is just too good for a 64mm flat burr coffee grinder lol. It should have been 83mm burr in that price range.
Seems DF64 are hit or miss when it comes to build quality. Some love theirs, others had issues maintaining alignment or grind adjustment. Looks like mfg is making slow improvements every iteration yet still pretty new to really know how these will hold up over years? With P64 can you just swap different burrs and no need to shim? If you've had your P64 for few years is it still like new in regard to tolerances? Thank you
Damn… now I wanna get this.
Isn't the platform the same conceptual setup as the Niche grinders?
I mean I think the Niche was the first widely popular single doser, but they didn’t invent that process. But it’s my opinion that the OG DF64 was brought to market because the Niche’s popularity but low stock. They saw a gap in the market and filled it.
@@Sprometheus I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I was referring to your comments about the strangeness of the little wooden platform that holds up the dosing cup (and the lack of forks). My first thought was, "wait, that's the same as the Niche and I don't think he's thought it was strange with the Niche."
@@ericanderson1753 oh, yeah on the Niche that platform sits on top of the base of the grinder and can be moved all at once. This one is completely unattached and just feels like an afterthought.
7:57 never stalled
8:57 ease at which it stalls
Kinda confusing
@@roloroko9523 it’s only confusing if you weren’t really paying attention that at 7:57 I was comparing it to the Lagom P64 which never stalls, and the issue with the DF64V stalls easily.
☕☕☕
Love Is Important ❤️
hmm... mine never stalls at 1000rpm and all I use is light roasts for espresso
Stalling at 1000 was rare for me, but still occurred sporadically.
I bought the DF64v when it was announced and was extremely disappointed at the quality when it arrived last week. It worked for one dose, and then died, and now its a paper weight - and it sounds like they had a problem with the production run and I'm not alone. This is a low quality piece of kit. It's cheap, but it also feels cheap. Not recommended at all.
I had some misgivings about the DF64V quality and so I ordered a Duo.
The stalling is a big problem, which is why the lagom is still king
Yeah. I don’t love that, and worry a lot of jams may have a detrimental effect on the lifespan of the motor, but it does seem to release tension pretty quick after a jam. But the Lagom has really nailed the low rpm grinding.
Now there is the zerno z1 tho.
@Hugo I don't find zerno as attractive as the lagom, and their reputation and customer service is second to none.
@@navidqowsi5618 Having read many pages of the truly massive P64 thread on the Home-Barista forum, I can't say I share your "second to none" perception of Option o's customer service... which isn't intended to criticize them, more to compliment Vel (the designer/engineer of the Zerno Z1) for making himself so accessible to his customers (and implementing their feedback when feasible).
I'm biased though- my Zerno Z1 (the new version with Blind Burrs, Ionizer, etc.) should arrive by the end of next month.
Personally, I never found the P64 to be all that compelling a prospect at roughly 1800 USD (in the USA) given its 64mm burrs and variable rpm as it's only standout feature. (Mine would probably be permanently parked at 500ish rpm if I owned one anyways) I find the P100 a much more compelling prospect personally- it's just outside my budget.
@Zirassi zerno is definitely a good grinder , however it is not priced that much cheaper then the p64 and being without rpm, this will be a deal breaker for some who want to play with rpm settings. Can't go wrong with either
Stalling sucks and I love playing with the RPM on my real p64 (lagom). Which brings me to the main point, I never support these cheap-copy companies that do nothing but come up with a worse cheap option of a really good product.
I understand that point of view, and in a lot ways you get what you pay for. But I also know not everyone has the disposable income to throw at a coffee grinder.
Overall I like the idea of options like this bringing features to a broader market, and likely in the process making it less expensive for everyone and likely pushing more premium brands to consider the benefits of pricing accessibility.
@@Sprometheus sure I get that. When I started into the coffee rabbit hole I didn’t have that kind of money and just bought what I could second hand.
But there’s also a lot of cheaper grinders that don’t just try to copy 1:1 and are really good too. I’d prefer one of those just because I don’t like that business model. What I like though is coming up with a better version of the original…that’s all cool. But invent/improve something.
What good is the p64 when they can't or won't even produce enough for the number of people that want to buy them. I would have happily paid 1800 for one a year ago but I'm not sitting around waiting for them or for someone to sell on Facebook. Now I paid 600 to a company that is gracious enough to accept my order. I don't even care if it's going to have a shorter lifespan.
I’m getting tired of hearing about all these DF grinders. Didn’t know it sounded that bad or that it stalled so thanks for this. I’m just gonna buy the P64 and call it a day
Df grinders are total garbage 😂😂
There’s a lot of grinders out there that’s for sure. But when companies look to create something similar (in this case the P64) it’s likely a race to reduce the retail cost to stand out, and in that process issues can definitely arise.
In the end it’s not a bad grinder, but the stalling is a flaw that some people won’t want to deal with.
You are getting tired of hearing about all these DF grinders? WOW! The HORROR. 🙄
@@jeffmattel7867 yea there’s like 20 but it’s not as annoying as you
@@Sprometheus thanks for the reply and video. I get it I just think they could have done better although I dont know if Turin is even a real company. I think this is just another classic example of you pay for what you get.
I’d pay an extra hundred if they just upgraded the motor on the next version. The value still handily beats out the Lagom
Considering how on top of the issues their previous models had it’s possible you’ll see an upgrade on upcoming models.
you didn't talk about stall at all.
You didn’t watch the video at all
I wouldn't buy this grinder for any reason other than that silly pedestal (or whatever that chunk of wood is called) propping up the dosing cup. That's such a bad design.
Interesting! I saw a number of people switch from their Timemore pledges to get a DF64V with the argument that it was a more reliable and "known" product. Seems like the DF64V motor (for now at least...could be revised in future models) isn't really delivering. I have also seen a few people online with issues of motors burning out in the first few days.
Oh wow, I don’t follow forums and groups as they tend to be pretty toxic so this is news to me. I’d argue Timemore is pretty reliable brand, even if it’s their first motorized grinder. I also find the unique design of the Sculptor a bit more appealing as it’s something a little different. But to each their own. In the end I think they both produce solid coffee, and hoping those who have outlier issues are made whole.
@@Sprometheus - can you compare the DF64V and Timemore 064s?
@@Sprometheus Thanks for all your reviews and content, I like your presentation. The more chill vibe where you're not always stuffing SSP this and that into everything and doing 15 blind taste tests is nice (not that that is bad either!). :)
@@arnold.pangilinan lol for the price it should be 078s not 064s.
@Foolsauce are you working at Timemore marketing department?!)))