The github extraction process was referring to the fact that github manages code history, so not only could they see the code they have today, they could see the code they had on day 1 of the github repo. The argument was "if their code base started as our code base, there is no dispute about the copyright"
Not like it matters, Nexon had the police raid IM's offices and homes and had access to DaD's source code. Would be an open and shut case if the code was the same as P3.
Yeah, this seems pretty cut and dry to me tbh. If a company tells you to stop storing company property remotely and you not only keep doing it but use it as a basis for one of your own projects... That's not legal. Regardless of who's doing it and who they're taking it from.
I appreciate your unbiased take on this. I don't care about Nexon, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't still have basic rights as a company to protect themselves.
Exactly it sucks but hey if they fucked up they fucked up and they have to be held accountable I hate billion dollar corporations but you said it perfectly they have to have basic rights to protect themselves as well
he is far from unbiased. he repeatedly mocks at one side. he has taken the viewpoint of Nexon and not considered the opposing viewpoint. he is big biased. don't take my word for it, go through this video and take note of all the mocking, that laughter, and derision and look were it is pointed.
Stealing is stealing so if Iron Mace is guilty of copying game structure from the company they have been previously working for it doesn’t seem fair to burn Nexon for protecting their rights. It would’ve been different if Iron Mace decided to build it from scratch instead of simply stealing half baked product to simply continue the process.
A couple thoughts: 1. Ironmace did share the list of game assets when the lawsuit first started. Nexon asserted that because IM had a handful of assets with the same name like "torch", it was clearly stolen. This became a running joke pretty quickly. The vast majority of the assets were deemed to be original or from the Unreal Marketplace. Furthermore the IM offices were raided by the police (twice) and IM hardware was confiscated. To my knowledge, there is not any evidence that anything was ever taken to date. If there was any evidence, it's likely that the injunction would have been granted a long time ago. 2. Your reaction at 22:38 might just be why some people get the idea that you're clearly biased towards Nexon here. I don't think it's at stretch to say that any and all of the devs had prior experience in game dev and/or experience with or a passion for games in the fantasy genre. It would be nearly impossible to conclusively say that "Unless you worked at Nexon" you never could have come up with this. Your argument that it doesn't matter where they came up with it is much more grounded and relevant. So this brings us full circle back to the crux, which is whether or not the assembly/composition of Dark and Darker is similar enough to warrant Copyright infringement. Although legally irrelevant, it's worth noting that Nexon didn't even file for copyright on anything P3 related until well after Dark and Darker had it's first playtest. 3. All that being said, appreciate your coverage of the topic.
> Nexon asserted that because IM had a handful of assets with the same name like "torch", it was clearly stolen. No, Nexon asserted that because IM conveniently chose to buy the exact same 100s of Unreal Assets and modify them in the exact same way as they had done for P3 it had to be stolen. It's crazy how you can watch the video and do exactly what Kira had been ridiculing people for lmao
@@Dome98Otaku So what assets would you buy for a dungeon crawler? Can't use torch or door because that's just the same as P3! Also Nexon has IM's code from multiple police raids, not to mention where do you think Greed is Good came from? This youtuber is completely biased, easy to see.
@@hunterbralish7973 he is interested in sounding unbiased, clinging to the chance that nexon will come out on top for a chance to say I told you so to DAD fans. Not interested in the chance of being on the losing end of a debate. The coverage of this case, along with this voice, are getting increasingly exhausting. Let's see the verdict next month
Where can i see gameplay of p3 so that I can see "it's the same game" because all I've ever seen in press is low res screenshots which shows a similar environment. *found some and tbh it looks like dark and darker.
From the sound of it their best defence was when they tried to claim the game was cancelled and so they left to make it. But it sounds like nexon has done a good job showing that it was only cancelled when the whole team left.
41:14 in the case of project KV, it was not just about using the knowledge you've gained. they allegedly started taking extensive paid time off just before they left. if the rumors are true then they were working on their next game while still employed and it lines up with an increase of re-runs and reduced story content in BA. if the rumors are true then it's not just about reusing art but actively sabotaging your ex-game before you leave. (apparently Isakusan had no chemistry with the coding team cause all the people who left were mostly from the art and writing departments)
You'd have to have a tiny pea brain to not understand this is mega shady, basically undermines worker employee relationships. Putting source code to a public git hub, should basically result in a blacklist from the industry, and jail time. because it is mega malicious. Its omega grand theft of potentially 100s of thousands of dollars, and can sink small companies. so screw the guy, if he has done what he is being accused of he deserves jail time, and also to basically be sued into oblivion.
@@everythingpony Probably not. Fun fact, if it was, that would be piracy! If I just buy assets and put them on a PUBLIC github page I am effectively rehosting them for free. That one is actually illegal and you can get actual jail time (in reality you'll get a takedown notice, maybe banned from github and it would only escalate if you really managed to piss off a large corp)
Corporations are mega shady and have leverage over you if you give them any. Giving the server over to Nexon means that they can make up whatever shit they want later down the road.
Another point about the similarities between assets is that any asset that isn't just a static, purely visual, asset will need to interact with the background code of the game. If you have written that background code yourself you can of course write it in a way to interact with whichever assets you want to use. If, on the other hand, you have copied the background code you'll be stuck having to use the same assets that the code was built for, or you'll have to rewrite any parts of the code that interacts with those assets
As usual, if you stole or did something shaddy, you deserve to get caught and lose it all. It don't matter who you are and it does not matter how rich the person you steal from is. This used to be a hot take back when the case started. People threw tomatoes at me, on discord, on X on TH-cam... glad to see Kira stand strong with actual good values and not play pretend Robin hood like some other TH-camrs i won't name.
They're so cooked, it would be amazing if they're not held accountable in some way. I guess the question is will their fines outweigh their profits and effect the company? I know people want to say fuck nexon but sometimes the person you hate can be right and the person you love can be wrong, it's a hard truth some people need to learn.
Nexon haters right now are like the screaming ladies on bodycam going "Noooo my baaaaby! He dun nothin wrong!" While literally witnessing a shootout with police seconds earlier.
@@Sniperbear13 They really exist for the good of corporations. Stuff like creations not being public domain like 70 years after the creator passed doesn't benefit the creator nor the consumer, only corporations that get to hoard IPs. EDIT: Not saying that they shouldn't exist. But the way in which they exist now has been literally lobbied into existence by corporate interests. Ironmace should probably still get shafted even with more reasonable copyright/patent laws in place.
I dont think it's fines. I think in egregious cases, you lose it all. If nexon wins they could have the game shut down and ironmace could have to give all revenue from it. Think about it like this, i could theoretically quickly churn out copies of other companies' ip. If the situation was that I could still make money after the fines, everyone would be doing this. There can be agreements reached where the guilty party has to give x percentage of all past and present and future sales but it all just depends.
What aboutism is fair in copyright, copyright has a major pillar that is the idea must be novel. If you can show they are just pinching ideas from elsewhere then the novelty requirement will not be met.
I love how nexon has one reasonable argument and then there is Ironmace being like "Those details are different... But mate here on twitter says we are in the right... But the code we stole was not compiled, and even if all those arguments were not valid, it's not like nexon would finish the game after I made everyone leave. And we are totally in the right even if we lose!" Absolutely ridiculous.
I do want a form of a resolution for this matter, and nexon gets the win if they are in the right. However, now that we know they have to have a goodwill company means that that company will be getting hate too just from being linked. Then again, I am just a US person with a lot of hate for this company that won't go away if they are proven right so take it as you would.
Im not sure about "instead of picking a side", this video does seem to be purposefully counter the majority. Just because you do not deem him unfair his persuit does not deduct bias or side. There is an objective lack of different perspectives on the same topics.
its all whataboutism, you cant copyright an idea, you cant tell him to not make dark and darker because they spend money in r&d and he has first person knowledge of it etc. the only thing to pin him on is using the base code.
Thanks for the info. Just a heads up, Ironmace fanboy here. Mainly because DAD is the only game I play atm and I want this game to keep growing. This is all new to me I've been trying to find some facts about what's going on, you did a great job here brother. I do agree with you about it not being ok to take idea/code/ect/employees and info from a company your working for and make your own game with it. That's wrong, if that's true that sucks for IM black eye there for sure. This may sound selfish but whatever happens I just hope DAD don't die IM might idk.
I wonder if the game will end up taken off steam again if the ruling goes against them. Further, I wonder if people will be able to make community servers for it if it is. The fans of the game seem dedicated enough to try to maintain the project even if it has the plug pulled completely
And I do think they could use that as a leverage in the court case, as an example of the damages done. If dark and darker didn't come out, their own project would be the first one like that on the market. But now they lose that advantage.
to be honest i don't care about the verdict or who is right, what i do care about is the money i put in dark and darker (buying the game and a couple of skins) and as a consumer who isn't involved with any schemes or drama i just want to still have what i paid for.
Great work on this video Kira and presenting the facts as they are. Proper journalism in my mind. I don't have a care in this as I'm not interested in the game or the companies, though of cause I lean more towards smaller independent studios than the money-grabbing large corpo ones, I am interested that we get to see the outcome and the case is able to run the full course so we can know how it affects the industry in the future. So yeah, I appreciate the time and effort you're putting in to provide these videos.
20:00 could say the same thing about Dungeonborne. If you ignore common sense and don't know what Dungeons and dragons is then yea, Nexon might have a point. Like who are we kidding here, Nexon raided IM 5 different times and have thier source code, thid would of been a open and shut case if IM actually did copy thier code. Not.to mention P2 was publicly shown so the concept of P3 was already out in public.
No you can't. Because the devs at dungeonborne didn't work at nexon on a game exactly like dungeonborne. Also the idea that is was already out in the public having any relevance to the case they're arguing is odd. Are you familiar with the argument they're making? Because it doesn't appear you are if that is what you believe is a good counter. Can you provide a source that indicates "nexon" raided anything and that they're in possession of the source code? Because I assume you have one for making that claim. What you likely mean is that the police raided Ironmace and the police are in possession of that data, which you seem to believe they would turn over during a criminal investigation to nexon to then use in a civil litigation, which is a very silly notion. If you mean nexon raided them, I'd love a source for that one.
I think that American Twitter user was talking about escape from tarkov witch is very similar to dark and darker. Its the same game genre but with as a first person shooter
Still a terrible defence though, you could say the same for all genres. Also before games like Dark and Darker came out excact shooters where Tarkov clones 100%
I've been following the Dark & Darker saga for a while now, and from what I've seen and heard Nexon definitely have a good case. Personally I don't want the game to vanish, I'd like to see both parties come to an agreement to keep the game up and running, whatever that agreement may be.
Considering Nexon doesn't have a releasable game, it would make more sense for them to want Dark and Darker to stay up but like Kira suggested with some kind of licensing agreement in place so Nexon profits heavily.
12:38 well you would normally think that the big company with infinite resources would, but that has been proven false time and time again in the last decade or so, so... idk
That's because big companies have known for awhile that they don't need to make a better game than their competition for it to sell. They hit the marketing hype correctly, ship a product and the money comes rolling in. Even if it's a buggy mess on release they get a lot of people buying it if they got the hype train running.
I will be the first person to want to shit on Nexon, they're the REASON we have shitty MTX in games and have ruined most games they're making. But I do not think Ironmace walks away unscathed from this. It's pretty incriminating. I am curious of the outcome no matter the case.
Nexon didn't get that trend started in earnest, you can trace it back all the way to Bethesda with their add-ons for Oblivion. Maybe even more mainstream was the loot box system that Valve pioneered.
@@xxkillbotxx7553nah Nexon was the first to introduce MTX in games. Bethesda was just the western gamers first introduction to MTX but definitely not the first company.
True. But also; what's the relevance? Not that it makes much sense, but even with the best-case interpretation that comment just sounds like a weird whataboutism. 'literally still' :sip :
This is like those extremely rare cases of valid youtube copyright strikes on big creators. Sure, the system sucks most of the time and is stacked against one side, but they can still be clearly in the wrong if they screwed up bad enough.
To be completely fair, the TH-cam meta is copyright infringement. Reaction content is absolutely not fair use, but that's a big meta on YT & streaming. The difference is, most of these videos get claimed to send revenue to the copyright holder, or they're reacting to small creators that aren't willing to risk filing a claim or just don't care about others using their content. Almost every strike you hear about is fake, though... usually because those are the ones that people are willing to fight.
@@deusdamnit Oh, yeah, the system super sucks, but it does so in favour of copyright owners with the funds to finance a lawsuit. The legal system isn't so much better. Tom Scott has a great video on the underlying problems
I swear people like to be blinded by their own biases. Just because a game development studio is indie, or the people within are the "worker bees" and not management, doesn't necessarily make them the good guys. They can be a bigger pile of garbage than a CEO of a major publisher. Only difference is the impact they have for shitty behavior.
@@SyperDT Cause even with heavy DNA proof some rape/murder cases can takes years before they settle, so imagine how long a case about intellectual proprety that is spreadd accross many countries can take. People who belive that the legal systme move fast clearly are confusing it with a speed ticket or small things.
Personally I wouldn't like for dark and darker to be deleted, but I also don't want Nexon to take over the game as the monetization in DaD is really almost borderline bad. And things might get really bad if they do. I worry that if they gain control of the game and don't shut it down the quality of the game will plummet
@@dantedeloden If ironmace is forced to shut down dark and darker. They will be paying liability to Nexon in court, nobody else. And it's likely this will bankrupt them.
Regarding the "small business good, big corpo bad" discourse going on in some circles, at which point does a "good" small business become a "bad" big corpo? If all big companies are bad, doesn't it follow that consumers should avoid buying products of small businesses in order to avoid making their profits go up so they will eventually become big and bad? Every "bad" company has once been a "good" indie. There are plenty of pretty bad indie companies and solo devs out there, too. That guy who made the colosseum game (don't remember what it's called), he who wrote some homophobic and misogynist crap in the patch notes comes to mind. So, being the "little guy" doesn't necessarily make you the "good guy".
litteral nintendo situation lel ... went from good to shit stain in 40 years ... which is why i dont give a shit who is doing the good or the bad ... my problem is when the legal system stifles progress because of severely outdated laws that were never meant for current generation ... my problem is whats happening NOW ... not 5 years down the line when this company goes bad and the next up and comer takes its place
This one's easy to answer - it's the point at which the rewards from success stop going to the people who actually do the work and start going to shareholders and executives. Glad I could help.
Well given that something like back for blood existed and used Left 4 Dead as its selling point, I would say that creating a game that's similar to another game after already working on that old game is something that just happens sometimes
I was familiar with the project KV and blue archive one, and there I thought "yeah nexon got fucked", but they poach almost no one, just had one programmer, it was mostly artists. But I thought the dark and darker case nexon was in the wrong, great video, I was wrong there.
I'd love to see Nexon take a big L on this, but I just don't see it happening. Unless there's something being left out of public view, the evidence has always seemed pretty damning.
If the questions is, was it illegal copyright? Yes.. But if the quesiton is, do I have any sympathy for Nexon? No. If you go back and read the articles that you covered in your videos last year, they talked about the several months leading up to Choi's termination. That article described pretty hostile work conditions with Nexon management disagreeing openly in meetings with Choi about the direction of the game. If your team lead dev says 'lets make this game better by doing this" and the bosses say ' no , no , no and screw you" then what did you expect would happen? I can imagine hating my boss, and hating my job enough to want and quit.. but Imagine you are working on a project you are most passionate about, and your paid insight and recommendations is not being acknowledged by management. If your gonna run a shitty company, greedy company, with horrible management practices and treat your lead engineers like shit? then yes, Nexon got what they deserved. Dark and Darker may have started development at Nexon, but Nexon was unable to complete it because they drove their own staff away. Context people! Also as someone else pointed out, they only filed lawsuit AFTER Ironmace's early playtest was being very successful. Nexon did not act like they cared until they were worried about loosing money. Everyone is quick to side with big company, but if it were Nestle you'd be at the store being your Yoohoo with no quesiton.
total DaD fanboy here but I've known they're screwed in court. only thing I can hope for is that the game remains active and developed. but i don't see any way out for IM in, some way, giving 99% of all profits to nexon
If Nexon wins, likely the same thing that happened to TERA will happen. They pay a big fine. Game will briefly shut down as they clean the code but return a bit later. IM already knee jerked part of this when the initial lawsuit happened (removed the tavern for a forest scene) which has since been restored I think?
This is why Disney makes all employees of any art they do, as long as they work for Disney, then anything they make. Even while their on their own time at home, belong to Disney. This is a grey zone lawsuit. Nexon should of had better contracts.
If you work at the company and create something, then yea that company owns the files and documents you have created there. But if you quit the company and you create similair stuff while not using the documents and files from that company, but you build it up from scratch, then you own those. The question here is, if he created the game from scratch, or if he used assets that he stole from the company.
*Random new startup company of ex-Coca Cola employees start making Coca Cola and selling it on their own* / *Coca Cola company sues* / *Random Coca Cola haters online:"They can't copyright letters! You can't copyright letters C-o-c-a C-o-l-a"!!! Reeeeee!!!"* It's the totality, not the individual parts.
I think you're absolutely correct. As far as evidence goes they definitely stole it. I played the game recently and it's pretty fun. Hopefully it settles as a money matter and the game may continue to survive
What was the palworld point you were trying to make? Are you saying palworld is using the same assets and substantially similiar and pocketpair stole files pr what? Because afaik, nintendo did not even file a copyright claim. I am not following what you were trying to say to imply about the palworld suit.
no, that isn't what I was saying. I said what I said in the video though. Beyond that, I'll likely post an in depth video on palworld later. If you're familiar with this case and the palworld one, what I said should make sense.
@@kirareacts I think I am familiar with both to extend that I have read the notices from pocketpair and nintendo, and I have watched a couple of your videos on dark and darker situation now plus some other reactions. Maybe I am just oneguy being stupid/brainfarting but I could not follow your comment in the video. I guess I will just wait for your nintendo video. Thanks for the reply
Perhaps my view is tainted, but there is some holes within parts of the logic throughout this video personally. I don't think Nexon is entirely wrong in all capacities, but I do think Nexon is being petty, unfair and even using bullying tactics. I dont think all their claims are entirely fair especially with my experience- perspective from with in the industry. I dont necessarily think you're a "shill", but I do think this video is flawed.
How is it petty, unfair and bullying to use the legal process to settle a dispute? And that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion but I'd suggest you familiarize yourself with the case before claiming the video is flawed.
That's certainly a sentence. Zero relevance to the topic and not engaging with any facts, but definitely words you can say, devoid of any critical analysis.
big companies do steal from little companies (and independent artists) at will tho, since the legal system costs too much for smaller companies to sue? not that I disagree with the argument that legal precendent would be bad, but like, big companies do in fact steal with little consequence.
@@GrahamFoxDelta independent photographer who I helped translate some things had part of her portfolio taken and used by Topshop. What consequences do you imagine an independent/small company can inflict on large company with a fully funded legal department?
@@emdeo the anecdotal “one individual I know” argument doesn’t really hold any weight. Talking about known cases of an established small business vs a larger business
@@GrahamFoxDelta funny how you didn't mention what consequences you think are possible. you asked for an example, I provided, this is known to happen, google it if you have to. or keep slurping corporate boot if you love it so much!
@@emdeo as soon as someone uses any variant of the phrase boot licker (eg corporate boot, etc) you know they’re not mentally capable of having an unbiased and objective discussion. Adults can understand that the world is more complex than “ooo big corporations bad”
I mean dungeonborne is still a thing too. Nexon just needs to release their iteration. Does Nexon just want to be the only one with a game like that. I mean you can't fight laws but Nexon isn't thinking about the player base.
I TOLD you ages ago they did not steal the game. lol lol. sure ok SDF might be in some level of trouble, but we knew that from the beginning as he admitted it. but there is NO copyright issue. pssssshhhhh
I love that a bunch a Western game players think they know Korean & International corporations (& copyright) law better than the lawyers do. (As in the people saying Nexon are making bogus claims). I dont like the way Nexon monerise the crap out of theor IP either, but i also dont claim to know the law of what they do bettwr than the people advising and governing their actions. But i suppose thats part and parcel, thwres always gonna be someone that 'knows' better
I think it's crazy how everyone here, Kira included, thinks that Korea follows the same system of using precedents that the USA does. SK treats each new case as only comparable to the law itself.
@@kevinmadsen2083 I never said that. Why do you make assumptions on what people think just because you think that you know what's going on in people's heads. No one here said anything about precedents. If you just wanted to say something to try to sound smart, you should have just said what you wanted to say. Adding the part about us all thinking a certain way because you said we do, just made you sound stupid AF
Everybody forgets how fucking evil Nexon is they are literally anti gamer throughout their entire existence as a company yeah ironmace isn’t a sweet little innocent angel but it’s a lesser evil and most definitely way more pro gamer/ pro community than nexon
To speak of R&D and stuff. I am not working in the field or have developed a game before, bust just common sense when looking at indie games etc... They don't do a lot of R&D either. They just make the game and cut things that are out of scope or are too difficult to make. If you've got a team of veterans to make your game - I don't see why it would take them long if they know what the idea is.
When Nexon makes consumer friendly decisions it should be at least appreciated. I don't like Nexon at all, but they're making solid efforts, claiming it's good for the industry that they're being wronged to this extent can set a precedent for companies with a bad rep of feeling it's unsalvageable and therefore never worth even trying. Companies can change, look at Boeing. And I encourage all to try for the better
Ah, classic. A person who doesn't understand that sometimes things change and you can simultaneously be correct at the time(you'll notice it didn't come to steam until after the things I explicitly stated were blocking the release were removed) and then update your stance as things change. I said it wasn't coming to steam based on the US lawsuit pending and the Korean motion filed to prevent further damages. When they were dismissed, I made an update video stating the game would now be able to come to steam. It's a shame you're not very clever, because clearly you are trying to put effort in to whatever it is this comment was trying to do. But instead, you just look silly. It is ironic that it's me who has no idea what I'm talking about when you're just talking objective nonsense.
Nexon is just kind of boned anyway, though because if they get dark and darker shut down ,this great game, who is ever going to purchase a nexon game again? Not me
DaD isn't as big as people think it is. It's in a small bubble of a much larger bubble. Consumers who already payed/played Nexon's titles won't boycott or stop, they are oblivious to this situation. It's insignificant in the bigger picture
Only thing that was sorted was them being able to publish their game on Steam, it never was mentioned their actual case with Nexon was over. They could still lose and they'll have to pull the game off from Steam, which is why I haven't bought the game.
@@Relhio dark and darker is free actually. But if you want more than 1 chaeacter slot you do gotta shill 30 bht thats like the only money you gotta soend
are u saying that it is ok to steal prototypes for things that companies stopped working for? morally i might agree that after some time patents and such should go in public domain or open source but with current laws that is still stealing and thus illegal
At 22:50 he laughs but I mean cmon do they own the ideas in your head if you come up with them at the fucking company. This is like saying, I make a chocolate cake for a certain restaurant and then I go make my own restaurant and I make the same chocolate cake because they don’t use the right ingredients
It isn't at all like saying that. If you think it is, you fundamentally misunderstand the discussion. It isn't about owning the idea "in your head". It's about owning the idea they pay you to make while under their employ.
@@kirareacts so if I were a company developing MMO’s all the skills that I learn when I’m working there in order to create my own product in the future.if I still desire. when I leave those skills are theirs, not mine?
who gives a fuck bro. they had a vision for a game that did not align with the suits. they left and made a great game without predatory bullshit. even if they stole some shit fuck Nexon with their p2w practices. Hope IM wins,
Every video I see from Kira on this goes out of its way to side with Nexon. So both Dark and P3 have the same public assets, not created by any of the devs involved. So that means Dark is a rip off then????
@@greentext2345 The difference is that if you go and make something derived from D&D, that's cool. No one's going to come after you for that. If you worked at Wizards while they were developing a new edition of D&D, made your own copy of their development playbook, quit when it was almost done and took a bunch of their workers with you, then released that playbook as your own with minor tweaks, you would be in trouble. Because you're stealing from them. *That* is the issue here, not how similar the ideas are.
@@Mon937ah yes, P3 is clearly the same game as DaD (sarcasm). The screenshots are meaningless. the IM defense of comparing nexons games to valves/Nintendos shows this point very clearly. The only thing that proves they copied the game, is if the source code was stolen and that hasn't been proven thus far
They had their own, as far as I'm aware, but it was easier for the guy to host his own or something. I mean he was a lead, which holds a certain level of trust.
You need to separate the individual from the entire group. Saying "they" is massive generalization when usually in corporate environment, everybody only cares about their own responsibility, things are lax until one individual mess up,causes a massive stink, then the rule book gets updated
they didn't have one prepared for work from home. i.e. plenty companies were adamantly against home to office VPN solutions before the WFH boom. Properly implementing the solution is not always simple depending on the companies security policies, equipment, internet, etc..
Could they claim that they learned techniques but this is their work here? Happens all over in many professions. You learn your trade and sometimes quit and do the same thing but better than before where you quit elsewhere. I see no distinction.
Yeah, but the people leaving software companies to go do the same thing better aren't stealing assets or using trade secrets of their former employer to do so, or if they are, not in such an obvious way. There aren't any cases that I know of where an ex-Facebook (or similar) employee had a home server full of Facebook source code and then magically came up with a new, "better" Facebook in a couple of months after leaving the company. To ignore the obvious suspicious actions of the Dark and Darker lead is just being willfully ignorant.
Of course they learn tools of the trade, every professional does, but the difference here is that it's the assets and the game mechanics themselves that are too similar, not the programming techniques e.g. manipulating computer memory in a certain way or being efficient in a game engine. Even the naming schemes for files and code is similar, and I don't think they just refer to naming a database class "Database".
That's the big difference, it's not an accusation that they stole the trade, they're being accused that they stole actual game files and code. In his past videos and this one Kira did mention that they were told to not connect to the servers for the game and they were caught still doing it after and downloading files.
Try googling "clean room development". Let's use the analogy of a architecture company. You work there, you learn how to design buildings, you leave and design your own similar buildings, that's fine! What isn't fine is leaving with blueprints that belonged to your old company and tracing them to "design" your own identical buildings.
The github extraction process was referring to the fact that github manages code history, so not only could they see the code they have today, they could see the code they had on day 1 of the github repo.
The argument was "if their code base started as our code base, there is no dispute about the copyright"
Not like it matters, Nexon had the police raid IM's offices and homes and had access to DaD's source code.
Would be an open and shut case if the code was the same as P3.
That is horrible wtf @@SyperDT
@@SyperDT This, just seems like they want a peak at Ironmace's current code.
Yeah, this seems pretty cut and dry to me tbh. If a company tells you to stop storing company property remotely and you not only keep doing it but use it as a basis for one of your own projects... That's not legal. Regardless of who's doing it and who they're taking it from.
I appreciate your unbiased take on this. I don't care about Nexon, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't still have basic rights as a company to protect themselves.
Exactly it sucks but hey if they fucked up they fucked up and they have to be held accountable I hate billion dollar corporations but you said it perfectly they have to have basic rights to protect themselves as well
he is far from unbiased. he repeatedly mocks at one side. he has taken the viewpoint of Nexon and not considered the opposing viewpoint. he is big biased. don't take my word for it, go through this video and take note of all the mocking, that laughter, and derision and look were it is pointed.
@@tufrpggaming8972 don’t know how him laughing about shit that’s funny means he’s biased about something that is pretty clear cut if true.
@@rosslindsey2638 nice echo chamber you got here
Why not they steal from there customers they didn’t care about there rights
Stealing is stealing so if Iron Mace is guilty of copying game structure from the company they have been previously working for it doesn’t seem fair to burn Nexon for protecting their rights. It would’ve been different if Iron Mace decided to build it from scratch instead of simply stealing half baked product to simply continue the process.
I hate Nexon as much as the next guy but this dude is clearly guilty of doing what they said lol
This video is clearly biased though.
@@SyperDTit is but he kinda has a point you know
@@SyperDT The facts aren't biased though.
A couple thoughts:
1. Ironmace did share the list of game assets when the lawsuit first started. Nexon asserted that because IM had a handful of assets with the same name like "torch", it was clearly stolen. This became a running joke pretty quickly. The vast majority of the assets were deemed to be original or from the Unreal Marketplace. Furthermore the IM offices were raided by the police (twice) and IM hardware was confiscated. To my knowledge, there is not any evidence that anything was ever taken to date. If there was any evidence, it's likely that the injunction would have been granted a long time ago.
2. Your reaction at 22:38 might just be why some people get the idea that you're clearly biased towards Nexon here. I don't think it's at stretch to say that any and all of the devs had prior experience in game dev and/or experience with or a passion for games in the fantasy genre. It would be nearly impossible to conclusively say that "Unless you worked at Nexon" you never could have come up with this. Your argument that it doesn't matter where they came up with it is much more grounded and relevant. So this brings us full circle back to the crux, which is whether or not the assembly/composition of Dark and Darker is similar enough to warrant Copyright infringement. Although legally irrelevant, it's worth noting that Nexon didn't even file for copyright on anything P3 related until well after Dark and Darker had it's first playtest.
3. All that being said, appreciate your coverage of the topic.
> Nexon asserted that because IM had a handful of assets with the same name like "torch", it was clearly stolen.
No, Nexon asserted that because IM conveniently chose to buy the exact same 100s of Unreal Assets and modify them in the exact same way as they had done for P3 it had to be stolen.
It's crazy how you can watch the video and do exactly what Kira had been ridiculing people for lmao
@@Dome98Otakuthat’s dumb an stipid of you LMAO
@@Dome98Otaku So what assets would you buy for a dungeon crawler? Can't use torch or door because that's just the same as P3!
Also Nexon has IM's code from multiple police raids, not to mention where do you think Greed is Good came from?
This youtuber is completely biased, easy to see.
Great points wish Kira would do a video talking to somone who is on the other side of the fence
@@hunterbralish7973 he is interested in sounding unbiased, clinging to the chance that nexon will come out on top for a chance to say I told you so to DAD fans. Not interested in the chance of being on the losing end of a debate. The coverage of this case, along with this voice, are getting increasingly exhausting. Let's see the verdict next month
Where can i see gameplay of p3 so that I can see "it's the same game" because all I've ever seen in press is low res screenshots which shows a similar environment.
*found some and tbh it looks like dark and darker.
From the sound of it their best defence was when they tried to claim the game was cancelled and so they left to make it. But it sounds like nexon has done a good job showing that it was only cancelled when the whole team left.
41:14 in the case of project KV, it was not just about using the knowledge you've gained. they allegedly started taking extensive paid time off just before they left. if the rumors are true then they were working on their next game while still employed and it lines up with an increase of re-runs and reduced story content in BA.
if the rumors are true then it's not just about reusing art but actively sabotaging your ex-game before you leave. (apparently Isakusan had no chemistry with the coding team cause all the people who left were mostly from the art and writing departments)
clearly youve never used up your pto before you quit you job
You'd have to have a tiny pea brain to not understand this is mega shady, basically undermines worker employee relationships.
Putting source code to a public git hub, should basically result in a blacklist from the industry, and jail time.
because it is mega malicious.
Its omega grand theft of potentially 100s of thousands of dollars, and can sink small companies.
so screw the guy, if he has done what he is being accused of he deserves jail time, and also to basically be sued into oblivion.
What code was used? That wasn't from the asset library?
@@everythingpony Probably not. Fun fact, if it was, that would be piracy! If I just buy assets and put them on a PUBLIC github page I am effectively rehosting them for free. That one is actually illegal and you can get actual jail time (in reality you'll get a takedown notice, maybe banned from github and it would only escalate if you really managed to piss off a large corp)
Corporations are mega shady and have leverage over you if you give them any. Giving the server over to Nexon means that they can make up whatever shit they want later down the road.
Misread it as "ironmouse".
Imagine if Nexon was responsible for her channels disappearing 😭
I just hope DaD survives this as it's a fantastic game, even if they get some penalties (which I agree they probably should).
Welcome back friendos
Really like the content but I don't think I'll ever get used to this introduction
Another point about the similarities between assets is that any asset that isn't just a static, purely visual, asset will need to interact with the background code of the game.
If you have written that background code yourself you can of course write it in a way to interact with whichever assets you want to use.
If, on the other hand, you have copied the background code you'll be stuck having to use the same assets that the code was built for, or you'll have to rewrite any parts of the code that interacts with those assets
As usual, if you stole or did something shaddy, you deserve to get caught and lose it all. It don't matter who you are and it does not matter how rich the person you steal from is. This used to be a hot take back when the case started. People threw tomatoes at me, on discord, on X on TH-cam... glad to see Kira stand strong with actual good values and not play pretend Robin hood like some other TH-camrs i won't name.
What up friendos.
They're so cooked, it would be amazing if they're not held accountable in some way. I guess the question is will their fines outweigh their profits and effect the company? I know people want to say fuck nexon but sometimes the person you hate can be right and the person you love can be wrong, it's a hard truth some people need to learn.
its sadly true. many people would rather see Nexon get shafted but Copyright and patent laws exists for the good of many.
Nexon was heading in a good direction too. Then this happened.
Nexon haters right now are like the screaming ladies on bodycam going "Noooo my baaaaby! He dun nothin wrong!" While literally witnessing a shootout with police seconds earlier.
@@Sniperbear13 They really exist for the good of corporations. Stuff like creations not being public domain like 70 years after the creator passed doesn't benefit the creator nor the consumer, only corporations that get to hoard IPs.
EDIT: Not saying that they shouldn't exist. But the way in which they exist now has been literally lobbied into existence by corporate interests. Ironmace should probably still get shafted even with more reasonable copyright/patent laws in place.
I dont think it's fines. I think in egregious cases, you lose it all. If nexon wins they could have the game shut down and ironmace could have to give all revenue from it. Think about it like this, i could theoretically quickly churn out copies of other companies' ip. If the situation was that I could still make money after the fines, everyone would be doing this. There can be agreements reached where the guilty party has to give x percentage of all past and present and future sales but it all just depends.
What aboutism is fair in copyright, copyright has a major pillar that is the idea must be novel. If you can show they are just pinching ideas from elsewhere then the novelty requirement will not be met.
I love how nexon has one reasonable argument and then there is Ironmace being like "Those details are different... But mate here on twitter says we are in the right... But the code we stole was not compiled, and even if all those arguments were not valid, it's not like nexon would finish the game after I made everyone leave. And we are totally in the right even if we lose!"
Absolutely ridiculous.
I do want a form of a resolution for this matter, and nexon gets the win if they are in the right. However, now that we know they have to have a goodwill company means that that company will be getting hate too just from being linked. Then again, I am just a US person with a lot of hate for this company that won't go away if they are proven right so take it as you would.
I remember the NCSoft issue
I still wish Aion wasn't destroyed as it was ;C
Always good to get a Kira update, which tries to look at the situation instead of picking a side and trying to make the facts fit.
Im not sure about "instead of picking a side", this video does seem to be purposefully counter the majority. Just because you do not deem him unfair his persuit does not deduct bias or side. There is an objective lack of different perspectives on the same topics.
But the guy is biased lol.
its all whataboutism, you cant copyright an idea, you cant tell him to not make dark and darker because they spend money in r&d and he has first person knowledge of it etc.
the only thing to pin him on is using the base code.
Still watching as of writing this, but thanks for the update!
Thanks for the info. Just a heads up, Ironmace fanboy here. Mainly because DAD is the only game I play atm and I want this game to keep growing. This is all new to me I've been trying to find some facts about what's going on, you did a great job here brother. I do agree with you about it not being ok to take idea/code/ect/employees and info from a company your working for and make your own game with it. That's wrong, if that's true that sucks for IM black eye there for sure. This may sound selfish but whatever happens I just hope DAD don't die IM might idk.
I wonder if the game will end up taken off steam again if the ruling goes against them. Further, I wonder if people will be able to make community servers for it if it is.
The fans of the game seem dedicated enough to try to maintain the project even if it has the plug pulled completely
Live service poison, if you've payed for this game and they lose the court battle you will probably have to pirate it to play it
Its funny to me that we have several D&Der clones out or on their way already.
And I do think they could use that as a leverage in the court case, as an example of the damages done. If dark and darker didn't come out, their own project would be the first one like that on the market. But now they lose that advantage.
There's a D&Der mobile coming from Krafton and Bluehole.
It is believed that nexon case is bs, and dungeonborne is copy of alleged copy
to be honest i don't care about the verdict or who is right, what i do care about is the money i put in dark and darker (buying the game and a couple of skins) and as a consumer who isn't involved with any schemes or drama i just want to still have what i paid for.
Great work on this video Kira and presenting the facts as they are. Proper journalism in my mind. I don't have a care in this as I'm not interested in the game or the companies, though of cause I lean more towards smaller independent studios than the money-grabbing large corpo ones, I am interested that we get to see the outcome and the case is able to run the full course so we can know how it affects the industry in the future. So yeah, I appreciate the time and effort you're putting in to provide these videos.
I genuinely don't understand why it took forever but finally gonna get something at least.
Hope it doesnt get some BS extension
20:00 could say the same thing about Dungeonborne. If you ignore common sense and don't know what Dungeons and dragons is then yea, Nexon might have a point.
Like who are we kidding here, Nexon raided IM 5 different times and have thier source code, thid would of been a open and shut case if IM actually did copy thier code. Not.to mention P2 was publicly shown so the concept of P3 was already out in public.
No you can't. Because the devs at dungeonborne didn't work at nexon on a game exactly like dungeonborne. Also the idea that is was already out in the public having any relevance to the case they're arguing is odd. Are you familiar with the argument they're making? Because it doesn't appear you are if that is what you believe is a good counter. Can you provide a source that indicates "nexon" raided anything and that they're in possession of the source code? Because I assume you have one for making that claim. What you likely mean is that the police raided Ironmace and the police are in possession of that data, which you seem to believe they would turn over during a criminal investigation to nexon to then use in a civil litigation, which is a very silly notion. If you mean nexon raided them, I'd love a source for that one.
I think that American Twitter user was talking about escape from tarkov witch is very similar to dark and darker. Its the same game genre but with as a first person shooter
Still a terrible defence though, you could say the same for all genres.
Also before games like Dark and Darker came out excact shooters where Tarkov clones 100%
@@George_Rakkas I dont think he was making a point himself, he was adding clarity to a clouded area. Chill
I was wondering what happened with this given that I saw their mobile version of the game was up on Google Play already
God forbid anyone compare DnD or Pathfinder to these games.
Lol
Dnd did try to sue pathfinder lol
I've been following the Dark & Darker saga for a while now, and from what I've seen and heard Nexon definitely have a good case. Personally I don't want the game to vanish, I'd like to see both parties come to an agreement to keep the game up and running, whatever that agreement may be.
Considering Nexon doesn't have a releasable game, it would make more sense for them to want Dark and Darker to stay up but like Kira suggested with some kind of licensing agreement in place so Nexon profits heavily.
12:38 well you would normally think that the big company with infinite resources would, but that has been proven false time and time again in the last decade or so, so... idk
That's because big companies have known for awhile that they don't need to make a better game than their competition for it to sell. They hit the marketing hype correctly, ship a product and the money comes rolling in. Even if it's a buggy mess on release they get a lot of people buying it if they got the hype train running.
I will be the first person to want to shit on Nexon, they're the REASON we have shitty MTX in games and have ruined most games they're making. But I do not think Ironmace walks away unscathed from this. It's pretty incriminating. I am curious of the outcome no matter the case.
Nexon didn't get that trend started in earnest, you can trace it back all the way to Bethesda with their add-ons for Oblivion. Maybe even more mainstream was the loot box system that Valve pioneered.
@@xxkillbotxx7553 it did, oblivion came after loot boxes were introduced in maple story in 2003.
@@xxkillbotxx7553nah Nexon was the first to introduce MTX in games.
Bethesda was just the western gamers first introduction to MTX but definitely not the first company.
@@buburbasi3983 There were extremely scummy MTX practices in browser games before that horse DLC released.
Do you remember when Meta stole the name meta? Big companies literally still from small companies everyday.
True. But also; what's the relevance?
Not that it makes much sense, but even with the best-case interpretation that comment just sounds like a weird whataboutism.
'literally still' :sip :
Good video on this topic as most people who cover this are not willing to be unbiased when covering this because they like Ironmace and hate Nexon.
This is like those extremely rare cases of valid youtube copyright strikes on big creators. Sure, the system sucks most of the time and is stacked against one side, but they can still be clearly in the wrong if they screwed up bad enough.
To be completely fair, the TH-cam meta is copyright infringement.
Reaction content is absolutely not fair use, but that's a big meta on YT & streaming.
The difference is, most of these videos get claimed to send revenue to the copyright holder, or they're reacting to small creators that aren't willing to risk filing a claim or just don't care about others using their content.
Almost every strike you hear about is fake, though... usually because those are the ones that people are willing to fight.
@@deusdamnit Oh, yeah, the system super sucks, but it does so in favour of copyright owners with the funds to finance a lawsuit. The legal system isn't so much better. Tom Scott has a great video on the underlying problems
chivalry... chivalry existed before dark and darker... chivalry used unreal engine assets ... there's an extraction looter mod for chivalry...
I swear people like to be blinded by their own biases. Just because a game development studio is indie, or the people within are the "worker bees" and not management, doesn't necessarily make them the good guys. They can be a bigger pile of garbage than a CEO of a major publisher. Only difference is the impact they have for shitty behavior.
It is pretty clear what they did
Yet people be defending them since the start.
If it's so clear why had the case stretched for multiple years?
This guy is biased as fuck.
@@SyperDT Cause even with heavy DNA proof some rape/murder cases can takes years before they settle, so imagine how long a case about intellectual proprety that is spreadd accross many countries can take. People who belive that the legal systme move fast clearly are confusing it with a speed ticket or small things.
They had an open beta for a phone version and im pretty sure i remember they had a 3rd person mode. It was also incredibly mid.
Mobile Version is not made or related to them, the ip was sold to another company so they could afford the lawsuit.
Personally I wouldn't like for dark and darker to be deleted, but I also don't want Nexon to take over the game as the monetization in DaD is really almost borderline bad. And things might get really bad if they do. I worry that if they gain control of the game and don't shut it down the quality of the game will plummet
Ironmace owes me the price + my hours wasted if they get shut down. Lets all start a class action against the thief if he loses this
@@dantedeloden If ironmace is forced to shut down dark and darker. They will be paying liability to Nexon in court, nobody else. And it's likely this will bankrupt them.
@PermaSlepe and those employees used to work at nexon dont forget that
Update soon?
Regarding the "small business good, big corpo bad" discourse going on in some circles, at which point does a "good" small business become a "bad" big corpo? If all big companies are bad, doesn't it follow that consumers should avoid buying products of small businesses in order to avoid making their profits go up so they will eventually become big and bad? Every "bad" company has once been a "good" indie. There are plenty of pretty bad indie companies and solo devs out there, too. That guy who made the colosseum game (don't remember what it's called), he who wrote some homophobic and misogynist crap in the patch notes comes to mind. So, being the "little guy" doesn't necessarily make you the "good guy".
litteral nintendo situation lel ... went from good to shit stain in 40 years ... which is why i dont give a shit who is doing the good or the bad ... my problem is when the legal system stifles progress because of severely outdated laws that were never meant for current generation ... my problem is whats happening NOW ... not 5 years down the line when this company goes bad and the next up and comer takes its place
This one's easy to answer - it's the point at which the rewards from success stop going to the people who actually do the work and start going to shareholders and executives. Glad I could help.
@@toukoenriaze9870 A bit more than 40 years, Nintendo was founded in 1889.
@@Sadiregu1619 f
Well given that something like back for blood existed and used Left 4 Dead as its selling point, I would say that creating a game that's similar to another game after already working on that old game is something that just happens sometimes
I was familiar with the project KV and blue archive one, and there I thought "yeah nexon got fucked", but they poach almost no one, just had one programmer, it was mostly artists. But I thought the dark and darker case nexon was in the wrong, great video, I was wrong there.
I'd love to see Nexon take a big L on this, but I just don't see it happening. Unless there's something being left out of public view, the evidence has always seemed pretty damning.
If the questions is, was it illegal copyright? Yes.. But if the quesiton is, do I have any sympathy for Nexon? No. If you go back and read the articles that you covered in your videos last year, they talked about the several months leading up to Choi's termination. That article described pretty hostile work conditions with Nexon management disagreeing openly in meetings with Choi about the direction of the game. If your team lead dev says 'lets make this game better by doing this" and the bosses say ' no , no , no and screw you" then what did you expect would happen? I can imagine hating my boss, and hating my job enough to want and quit.. but Imagine you are working on a project you are most passionate about, and your paid insight and recommendations is not being acknowledged by management. If your gonna run a shitty company, greedy company, with horrible management practices and treat your lead engineers like shit? then yes, Nexon got what they deserved. Dark and Darker may have started development at Nexon, but Nexon was unable to complete it because they drove their own staff away.
Context people! Also as someone else pointed out, they only filed lawsuit AFTER Ironmace's early playtest was being very successful. Nexon did not act like they cared until they were worried about loosing money.
Everyone is quick to side with big company, but if it were Nestle you'd be at the store being your Yoohoo with no quesiton.
total DaD fanboy here but I've known they're screwed in court. only thing I can hope for is that the game remains active and developed. but i don't see any way out for IM in, some way, giving 99% of all profits to nexon
If Nexon wins, likely the same thing that happened to TERA will happen. They pay a big fine. Game will briefly shut down as they clean the code but return a bit later. IM already knee jerked part of this when the initial lawsuit happened (removed the tavern for a forest scene) which has since been restored I think?
I don’t really care about copyright or whatever else. I like playing the video game when I get off work and I hope nexon goes under
wild to see kira somewhat cover project KV
This is why Disney makes all employees of any art they do, as long as they work for Disney, then anything they make. Even while their on their own time at home, belong to Disney. This is a grey zone lawsuit. Nexon should of had better contracts.
If you work at the company and create something, then yea that company owns the files and documents you have created there. But if you quit the company and you create similair stuff while not using the documents and files from that company, but you build it up from scratch, then you own those. The question here is, if he created the game from scratch, or if he used assets that he stole from the company.
*Random new startup company of ex-Coca Cola employees start making Coca Cola and selling it on their own* / *Coca Cola company sues* / *Random Coca Cola haters online:"They can't copyright letters! You can't copyright letters C-o-c-a C-o-l-a"!!! Reeeeee!!!"* It's the totality, not the individual parts.
it sounds like nexon is stealing the game from the person who created and spearheaded the development of the game
I think you're absolutely correct. As far as evidence goes they definitely stole it. I played the game recently and it's pretty fun. Hopefully it settles as a money matter and the game may continue to survive
i hate nexon as much as the next guy but you gotta be real stupid to steal from a company like this
Even with everything happening. Nexon probably would've did worse with it. I'm glad ironmace made it.
What was the palworld point you were trying to make? Are you saying palworld is using the same assets and substantially similiar and pocketpair stole files pr what? Because afaik, nintendo did not even file a copyright claim. I am not following what you were trying to say to imply about the palworld suit.
no, that isn't what I was saying. I said what I said in the video though. Beyond that, I'll likely post an in depth video on palworld later. If you're familiar with this case and the palworld one, what I said should make sense.
@@kirareacts I think I am familiar with both to extend that I have read the notices from pocketpair and nintendo, and I have watched a couple of your videos on dark and darker situation now plus some other reactions. Maybe I am just oneguy being stupid/brainfarting but I could not follow your comment in the video. I guess I will just wait for your nintendo video. Thanks for the reply
Perhaps my view is tainted, but there is some holes within parts of the logic throughout this video personally.
I don't think Nexon is entirely wrong in all capacities, but I do think Nexon is being petty, unfair and even using bullying tactics.
I dont think all their claims are entirely fair especially with my experience- perspective from with in the industry.
I dont necessarily think you're a "shill", but I do think this video is flawed.
How is it petty, unfair and bullying to use the legal process to settle a dispute?
And that's okay, you're entitled to your opinion but I'd suggest you familiarize yourself with the case before claiming the video is flawed.
There’s so many copy cat games of it now. They’re just butthurt they scrapped p3
That's certainly a sentence. Zero relevance to the topic and not engaging with any facts, but definitely words you can say, devoid of any critical analysis.
big companies do steal from little companies (and independent artists) at will tho, since the legal system costs too much for smaller companies to sue? not that I disagree with the argument that legal precendent would be bad, but like, big companies do in fact steal with little consequence.
Not without consequences if it’s true theft. Any Examples?
@@GrahamFoxDelta independent photographer who I helped translate some things had part of her portfolio taken and used by Topshop.
What consequences do you imagine an independent/small company can inflict on large company with a fully funded legal department?
@@emdeo the anecdotal “one individual I know” argument doesn’t really hold any weight. Talking about known cases of an established small business vs a larger business
@@GrahamFoxDelta funny how you didn't mention what consequences you think are possible. you asked for an example, I provided, this is known to happen, google it if you have to.
or keep slurping corporate boot if you love it so much!
@@emdeo as soon as someone uses any variant of the phrase boot licker (eg corporate boot, etc) you know they’re not mentally capable of having an unbiased and objective discussion. Adults can understand that the world is more complex than “ooo big corporations bad”
I mean dungeonborne is still a thing too. Nexon just needs to release their iteration. Does Nexon just want to be the only one with a game like that. I mean you can't fight laws but Nexon isn't thinking about the player base.
That isn't their argument, or even at all relevant.
Kira getting that Nexon money 💰
I TOLD you ages ago they did not steal the game. lol
lol. sure ok SDF might be in some level of trouble, but we knew that from the beginning as he admitted it. but there is NO copyright issue. pssssshhhhh
You jump to so many conclusions, its actually ridiculous.
Eco mode on monitor as standard. Save the planet 😂
"We copied the homework, but we changed a lot of things"
I just have to like when people call me friendo right at the beginning. 👌🏻
I love that a bunch a Western game players think they know Korean & International corporations (& copyright) law better than the lawyers do. (As in the people saying Nexon are making bogus claims). I dont like the way Nexon monerise the crap out of theor IP either, but i also dont claim to know the law of what they do bettwr than the people advising and governing their actions. But i suppose thats part and parcel, thwres always gonna be someone that 'knows' better
I think it's crazy how everyone here, Kira included, thinks that Korea follows the same system of using precedents that the USA does. SK treats each new case as only comparable to the law itself.
@@kevinmadsen2083 I never said that. Why do you make assumptions on what people think just because you think that you know what's going on in people's heads. No one here said anything about precedents. If you just wanted to say something to try to sound smart, you should have just said what you wanted to say. Adding the part about us all thinking a certain way because you said we do, just made you sound stupid AF
Everybody forgets how fucking evil Nexon is they are literally anti gamer throughout their entire existence as a company yeah ironmace isn’t a sweet little innocent angel but it’s a lesser evil and most definitely way more pro gamer/ pro community than nexon
So what is the chance of the game getting canceled?
To speak of R&D and stuff. I am not working in the field or have developed a game before, bust just common sense when looking at indie games etc... They don't do a lot of R&D either. They just make the game and cut things that are out of scope or are too difficult to make.
If you've got a team of veterans to make your game - I don't see why it would take them long if they know what the idea is.
Cause Nexon didnt steal from Warframe at all for the first descendant /s
Prepare for the downvotes.
When Nexon makes consumer friendly decisions it should be at least appreciated. I don't like Nexon at all, but they're making solid efforts, claiming it's good for the industry that they're being wronged to this extent can set a precedent for companies with a bad rep of feeling it's unsalvageable and therefore never worth even trying. Companies can change, look at Boeing. And I encourage all to try for the better
You can defend the letter of the law, without shilling for millionaires...
Ah classic kira talking about something he has no idea about, "guys this game is not coming to steam" classic kira L
Ah, classic. A person who doesn't understand that sometimes things change and you can simultaneously be correct at the time(you'll notice it didn't come to steam until after the things I explicitly stated were blocking the release were removed) and then update your stance as things change. I said it wasn't coming to steam based on the US lawsuit pending and the Korean motion filed to prevent further damages. When they were dismissed, I made an update video stating the game would now be able to come to steam. It's a shame you're not very clever, because clearly you are trying to put effort in to whatever it is this comment was trying to do. But instead, you just look silly. It is ironic that it's me who has no idea what I'm talking about when you're just talking objective nonsense.
I just want nexon to win due to the delusional dark and darker discord cult
Nice bro. So brave for that honestly.
Honestly, kinda true
the what? that may be a great video lol
@@lucasLSD Oh man the "hold the line" people you see on discord/reddit are absolutely insane. Would be better in a cringe compilation than a video
which is just as petty and primitive as what they are engaging in, basically.
Congrats, you are what you hate!
anyone have link to "p3" or whatever the game name is, would be fun to see how they compare, or the 2 side by side
Nexon is just kind of boned anyway, though because if they get dark and darker shut down ,this great game, who is ever going to purchase a nexon game again? Not me
DaD isn't as big as people think it is. It's in a small bubble of a much larger bubble. Consumers who already payed/played Nexon's titles won't boycott or stop, they are oblivious to this situation.
It's insignificant in the bigger picture
@@tsuzukiyomi8911 Gamers are a smaller community than you think
where have you seen p3 gameplay? ive only seen screenshots.
This is still going? I thought this was over a while ago, lol.
Legal stuff usually moves at glacial speeds.
Only thing that was sorted was them being able to publish their game on Steam, it never was mentioned their actual case with Nexon was over. They could still lose and they'll have to pull the game off from Steam, which is why I haven't bought the game.
they won the case in the US, but the one in Korea is still ongoing
@@Prushbinger They didn't "win" anything. It was just (rightly) determined that the matter needs to be settled in Korea.
@@Relhio dark and darker is free actually. But if you want more than 1 chaeacter slot you do gotta shill 30 bht thats like the only money you gotta soend
Beans
why would I care if the idea for P3 was stolen when Nexon wasn't planning on releasing it any time soon themselves if at all?
They were planning on releasing it. Where are you getting that idea?
are u saying that it is ok to steal prototypes for things that companies stopped working for? morally i might agree that after some time patents and such should go in public domain or open source but with current laws that is still stealing and thus illegal
@@kirareactsthey literally suspended the project
I mean… the entire game is based on dungeons and dragons. These aren’t unique concepts in the slightest,
Me waiting for Ninty v Paycunts vid >0
At 22:50 he laughs but I mean cmon do they own the ideas in your head if you come up with them at the fucking company. This is like saying, I make a chocolate cake for a certain restaurant and then I go make my own restaurant and I make the same chocolate cake because they don’t use the right ingredients
It isn't at all like saying that. If you think it is, you fundamentally misunderstand the discussion. It isn't about owning the idea "in your head". It's about owning the idea they pay you to make while under their employ.
@@kirareacts so if I were a company developing MMO’s all the skills that I learn when I’m working there in order to create my own product in the future.if I still desire. when I leave those skills are theirs, not mine?
When did I say that?
Hope DaD stays around ive played both dungeonborn and dark and darker and dungeonborn is ass lmao
Screw nexon.
who gives a fuck bro. they had a vision for a game that did not align with the suits. they left and made a great game without predatory bullshit. even if they stole some shit fuck Nexon with their p2w practices. Hope IM wins,
Every video I see from Kira on this goes out of its way to side with Nexon.
So both Dark and P3 have the same public assets, not created by any of the devs involved. So that means Dark is a rip off then????
C'mon I hate Nexon but it's pretty obvious you can't just work on something leave and then just copy it lol
@@kimberly4275 These ideas though are derived from D&D.
@@greentext2345 The difference is that if you go and make something derived from D&D, that's cool. No one's going to come after you for that. If you worked at Wizards while they were developing a new edition of D&D, made your own copy of their development playbook, quit when it was almost done and took a bunch of their workers with you, then released that playbook as your own with minor tweaks, you would be in trouble. Because you're stealing from them. *That* is the issue here, not how similar the ideas are.
@@kimberly4275 Ah yes, they copied P3, a 3rd person objective based battle royale, by making a first person extraction looter. Got it.
@@Mon937ah yes, P3 is clearly the same game as DaD (sarcasm). The screenshots are meaningless. the IM defense of comparing nexons games to valves/Nintendos shows this point very clearly. The only thing that proves they copied the game, is if the source code was stolen and that hasn't been proven thus far
Bro went full cyberden dealer lol. I love it.
You have the wildest takes...
The fact that the company didn't bother to have thier own server is one of the dumbest and most wild things I've ever heard.
They had their own, as far as I'm aware, but it was easier for the guy to host his own or something. I mean he was a lead, which holds a certain level of trust.
bet they won't do that anymore
@@xxkillbotxx7553 nope they didnt ... they didnt have any server until after he had his own ... then they made one and told him to use it
You need to separate the individual from the entire group. Saying "they" is massive generalization when usually in corporate environment, everybody only cares about their own responsibility, things are lax until one individual mess up,causes a massive stink, then the rule book gets updated
they didn't have one prepared for work from home. i.e. plenty companies were adamantly against home to office VPN solutions before the WFH boom. Properly implementing the solution is not always simple depending on the companies security policies, equipment, internet, etc..
Silly Nexon haha lol
Could they claim that they learned techniques but this is their work here? Happens all over in many professions. You learn your trade and sometimes quit and do the same thing but better than before where you quit elsewhere. I see no distinction.
it depends.
Yeah, but the people leaving software companies to go do the same thing better aren't stealing assets or using trade secrets of their former employer to do so, or if they are, not in such an obvious way. There aren't any cases that I know of where an ex-Facebook (or similar) employee had a home server full of Facebook source code and then magically came up with a new, "better" Facebook in a couple of months after leaving the company. To ignore the obvious suspicious actions of the Dark and Darker lead is just being willfully ignorant.
Of course they learn tools of the trade, every professional does, but the difference here is that it's the assets and the game mechanics themselves that are too similar, not the programming techniques e.g. manipulating computer memory in a certain way or being efficient in a game engine. Even the naming schemes for files and code is similar, and I don't think they just refer to naming a database class "Database".
That's the big difference, it's not an accusation that they stole the trade, they're being accused that they stole actual game files and code. In his past videos and this one Kira did mention that they were told to not connect to the servers for the game and they were caught still doing it after and downloading files.
Try googling "clean room development". Let's use the analogy of a architecture company. You work there, you learn how to design buildings, you leave and design your own similar buildings, that's fine! What isn't fine is leaving with blueprints that belonged to your old company and tracing them to "design" your own identical buildings.