I'm certainly on the radical end of this - get rid of the reserved list altogether and do a big reprint set for all the cards. Does it drop the card value? Absolutely - and it's good for it. WotC has been catering to resellers and the secondary market for years, and it's not actually good for the game. Get rid of the Reserved List, give us reprints to play with.
Nah, just reprint black lotus as a love your LGS promo. Put 50,000 in circulation. It's already banned everywhere, it would cause a massive shock to the market, and would scare a lot of speculators off of holding old cards.
I don't think there's any evidence that would happen. Compare the prices of Shivan dragon. Older copies would retain their value as collectibles obviously and if they depreciate oh well cardboard is not an investment vehicle.
@@Thoughtmage100 This, billions and billions of dollars is what it costs them to break the reserved list, and I don't think they make up for that in the profit of reprinting reserved list cards.
I think functional reprints are the easiest solution... I also think something like the Judge promos but backwards (meaning that they reprint the cards with different art and/or frame and they actually print tons of them instead of a limited amount), would be the best thing to do. It will provide cheap(er) copies of those cards to people who actually want to play them. This would also help retain the value of the originally printed copies that collectors, investors and old school players have been holding on to for decades. The newly printed cards would be ubiquitous and immediately distinguishable, so the old copies' value will still lie in their scarcity.
I think the issue is with the nature of the typical Magic player. Most players aren't willing to drop loads of money for a card they're not interested in playing with. It's the reason why you don't see cards getting graded at nearly the same rate as Pokemon cards. You do see cards like Llanowar Elves with 50c versions and $150 versions, but I don't think we would see dual lands still sitting at $500-700. I am all for it though. I just want more people to be able to play the game.
@@TheFirstJake Yeah, of course, I just think that presenting players with a cheap(er) (I'm putting the '-er' in brackets because 'cheaper' doesn't necessarily mean 'cheap') alternative, and them buying that wouldn't necessarily devalue the original expensive cards because there's always going to be demand for those from collectors and investors. Especially given that in a scenario such as the one I have in mind, the cheap(er) options would look very different to the originals and would be printed in very high quantities so that the originals will still be very hard to come by in comparison. I'm not an economist though, so I'm just speculating from an average player's point of view of course. It's just that with the way things are tight now, players are basically forced to fork out huge amounts of money for reserve list cards if they need to play them (or just proxy them, which frankly, I think is the best option). Things might play out very differently in reality. Also, I realise that for the game to thrive the focus should be on the players, but for the business to thrive, the focus needs to be on the whales...
An interesting point: Another aspect of the RL is they can't print something more powerful than what's on the RL, so no Tri-Lands or a 5 color land that taps for more than two colors with no downside. With that in mind they can't print a "snow" land that enters untapped with land types, but they CAN print a Legendary land with land types that enter untapped because Legendary is a downside. And yes, I know we'll just tap one before Playing the other like they do with Nykthos or Gaea's Cradle but it's still weaker than a true dual and stronger than a shock land.
The underlying legal argument revolves around promissory estoppel which numerous people have commented on in the past. If Wizards were to be challenged in court, they have a very good shot at winning the argument. However, they have no incentive to take that reputational or legal risk, and would much rather pretend the problem isn’t real and the reserved list is some kind of unalterable biblical tablet. It’s frustrating…
slowly removing the lower priced cards that are basically safe from people suing can weaken the basis of promisory estoppel (and tbh, i disagree it was ever a valid argument at the start. Unfortunately the RL has made it so now) It'd make more cards accessible, for the few that have reason to be played, and slowly bring the list down to just the cards that are actually causing the problems, making it harder to pretend the RL is a reasonable concession to collectors, and is actually just a bad idea perpetuating itself
I agree that the incentive just isn't there. Right now the people that desperately want the reserved list abolished and the people that want to keep it are in the same boat: they are a vocal minority. The vast majority of magic players don't know and/or don't care.
The issue is that people have invested into these cards precisely because WOTC made a hard promise not to reprint them and devalue them. Personally, I don't think they should have ever have done that in the first place but now that they have, it does kind of screw over those investors. It's only an unalterable biblical tablet because they made it so.
I'm a certified reserve list hater. I don't like catering to collectors. I see why that is, but I personally believe the GAME is more important than collecting the CARDBOARD that is used to play the game.
100% agree that the game is more important. It's one of the reasons that magic has survived so long where other games have failed. The reality is the existence of the reserve list is almost entirely unfelt with the exception of the dual lands and even that becomes less and less as more styles of multiple-basic land type lands are printed.
I understand the concerns for collectors/investors for the RL cards. Mtg has enough of a monetary barrier already and the RL is already not legal in Modern / Standard; could the rules committee just ban the RL for commander? That was WOTC doesn’t have to deal with it, and (most) everyone is happy.
I think the biggest obstacle with this is that commander has always been "the format that lets you use all your weird stuff" and banning out cards like Breathstealers Crypt and Circle of Despair has been too high a price to pay. As someone that has been playing for a very long time, a lot of my play-ables box would be banned outright.
@@TheFirstJake True... that would affect all the players with existing reserve list cards, regardless not good. It's a complicated problem, MTG is both a collectors and a players game. Reprinting the reserved list would hurt collectors and help players, upholding it hurts players and help players. As a player, of course I want it to be reprinted, I like playing with real cards; proxies will always exist for cEDH, but they don't quite feel the same to me on a spiritual level (lol), even the nice ones. And to be fair, high cost of cards is not only a reserved list problem... I'd love to have a set of Sheoldreds for my standard Orzhov deck... Although much cheaper than duals, it's still not cheap.
@@brian_simmons_ Surely though, it's a game first and a collectors thing second. The collector's value is built off the product's value as a game first. So decisions should ultimately be made with the game in mind primarily.
Current Magic is for the wealthy, by the wealthy. Wizards needs to start being more accepting of either printing and selling for their average - the MAJORITY - playerbase, or they need to stop printing new cards fully until they find a perfect middleground. As for the Reserved List, I'm all for a 'Legacy/Vintage Horizons' style set that would reprint EVERYTHING on the Reserved List, along with cards that are heavily played in both formats. This could be the best way of doing it so that, legally, they can only be played in the formats they set is named after, BUT would also get more official copies into rotation for Commander.
I mean I’m pretty sure you could make copies of dryad arbor and similar for over a decade, but this is the first card that puts specifically a token land into play.
@@TheFirstJake I knew what you meant I just thought it was funny because my orvar deck is most people’s first exposure to tokens lands. I carry Pokémon water energy cards to stand in as token islands! Great vid 💛
@@TheFirstJake orvar is my all time favorite commander (it doesn’t help I’m a blue mage incarnate). If you told me here’s ~50$ build an EDH deck, I’d build orvar sea creature tribal. Since a bunch of 90’s draft chaf becomes 1-2 mana ramp spells that can out ramp a mono green deck (his tokens enter untapped no matter your target), and because orvar is a changeling whelming wave misses him. But also orvar is off meta cEDH (we have urza at home). That’s how I have him built now. Def my pet commander I’ve carried around for 3 years collecting pieces for. I guess you could say it’s “the deck that made” me 😂 anyway cheers, if you want a decklist let me know, I’d have to update it then I could get you a moxfield link.
This might be a bit long, but I do have a couple of points and a suggestion. First off, ANY replacement or supply is going to dig into the price of those big ticket RL cards if it becomes acceptable use. Second, all of the options you've brought up are just different kinds of proxies... the issue this creates is the same we saw with Magic 30: people will look at it and ask, "If WotC is going to try to sell me a proxy, why not just order a counterfeit offline?" We need legal reprints. My idea for *FIXING* the reserved list is to make both sides unhappy. Two major changes to the RL: first off, start by adding new cards. WotC would probably want to 'hand pick' cards, but the main focus would be on cards which have reached high secondary market prices for an extended time period. This serves the collectors' purpose of making Magic collectible again, and gives this new generation of players a chance to enjoy this part of the game themselves. The other part is to get rid of the 'no reprints ever' clause of the Reserved List and replace it with a reprint schedule - break the RL down into four groups and reprint on group every year, but here's the catch: they can ONLY print a set number and the MUST be serialized and printed in standard legal sets throughout the year. Let's say 2000 copies. This doesn't entirely fix the issue but if WotC doesn't move on the issue, and move soon, the game is going to be lost entirely to the 'proxy everything' kids on Reddit.
I like your ideas for fixing, but I disagree with your first point about them being proxies. People are 100% ok with Wizards printing proxies for use. The frustration with Magic 30 was 99% to do with the price. If Wizards made full proxy packs for $5 each that had reserved list cards included they would sell out instantly for as long as Wizards was willing to print them. My personal solution for reprinting the reserve list is to just make them incredibly unappealing for collectors: Orange border with florescent green comic-sans text and emoji art. Give them the full Secret Lair experience.
@@TheFirstJake I think the frustration *SHOULD* have been the price, but you clearly haven't spent any time on the EDH subreddit. The message there is 'proxy everything, do not spend money' - to the point that they actually downvote new players who mention buying into the hobby. They consistently point to that one document WotC put out about Playtest cards and point to Magic 30 as WotC themselves endorsing proxy use, and WotC printing anything other than official cards will be twisted into the same message. WotC charging anything more than the cost MPC Fill charges will be met with the same result, and it is frankly naïve to think it won't. I doubt these people represent a large portion of the actual MTG community and I've only met a few in person (nearly always kids), but they have a loud voice in the internet spaces and it's starting to bleed into reality via groupthink psychology. I also think you underestimate what collectors find appealing. I am largely a collector myself, though my collection is based on playability in EDH. And I love Secret Lair stuff. I go out of my way to trade out for alternate art copies all the time. The INVESTORS are the larger problem; a lot of the cost of, say, Gaea's Cradle and Timetwister is based on playability, not collectability - investors hold these cards hostage from players with massive price tags that other investors wouldn't dare pay. SO ANY downward pressure on demand based on playability effects their bottom line - you would likely bankrupt Rudy if anything lowered demand pressure on RL cards. But WotC *HAS* to do something because the proxy army is gaining ground fast.
@@MadMage86 When people want hundreds or thousands of dollars for a piece of cardstock is it any wonder people turn to proxies? At least proxies are actually affordable and let us play with cards that we'd never get to play otherwise.
@@MadMage86 I have noticed that with the EDH subreddit, which is, overall, terrible. It's not *quite* as bad as you say, but there's a certain vocal contingent that does, as you say, believe every card should be proxied and there should be consideration of cards past that. They're like wanna-be cEDHers, I guess, since they're proxying every card to put in every deck and don't believe any deck should have a budget. These people are not the majority. The thing about them is that they don't have any sticking power. With no money in the game, when they get bored, and they will fairly quickly because there's nothing to chase, collect, or think about, they will simply toss their printouts into the trash and move on. I wouldn't worry about them too much. There's too many players that enjoy the experience of opening packs and buying cards--you know, half the reason to play the game, a collectible card game, over a video game or all-in-the-box board game in the first place.
What if those cards were ever so slightly power crept to justify giving the card a different name, like tacking gaining a life to it, then banning the reserved list cards in the formats that mattered so that those cards remain collectible-only and we get mass-produced and ever so slightly better version to use in average decks?
I knew about the reserve list as a price control tool creating scarcity for collectors, but hadn’t thought about it as a tool to better support variety in game design. Are there cards on the list for lore reasons/to support story telling?
I'd argue that this is the case for the majority of legendary creatures on the reserved list, but I don't know that anything has explicitly been added for lore reasons. Personally I think it would be cool if Legendary creatures were retired to the reserved list after lore moments. It just seems a little weird that we've gotten Queen Marchesa printed 10 times...
Agreed. Mostly I wish they were still doing book releases that connected with set releases. I think the lore is so cool and it makes me sad that they seem to be stepping back from that a bit. Not that the lore is gone, it just doesn’t feel quite as supported. I want me a good bedtime story darn it!
Honestly, I am happy to not have the reserved list gone. Now, I say this as someone who started playing this year, I have no reserve list cards so I don’t take a stake in anything. I don’t want it back purely because some of those cards are sooooo powerful that if they were put to my playgroups, the power levels would go way higher. There are some crazy crazy cards on there that I’d rather only see once in a blue moon, rather than most of the time. Ofcourse if I wanted to play them, I’d just proxy them. Anyone who is against respectful and healthy proxying is just a douche at this point.
Would it be a crazy idea for WotC to make a set of cards that have different names and stuff but the same mechanics? A simple 'Nooo this isn't Black Lotus, it's Dark Rose! Very different.' would work, with players no longer needing to buy expensive cardboard, but cheap cardboard that functions the same.
Unfortunately this causes two issues: The reserved list specifies mechanically identical cards so even with the name change this is a no go and secondly, because the number of copies of cards in a deck is based on card name this would essentially allow you to run twice as many copies.
@@TheFirstJake Then I feel like if they ever were going to do something regarding the RL, it'd probably be a change to the rules of it. Abolishing the RL is drastic. One rule change isn't as crazy as that. As for the copies of cards thing-I'd honestly be able to live with it as a casual player, but I see how tournaments can get weird about it. Maybe they take the route of banning the cards but encouraging their use in casual play? I think they've done something similar before, plus, it would decrease the dent in value the old cards would take since technically, the new cards are banned.
A slight addendum to this. If they did just make functional reprints as nicknames cards with different names it should work fine but I’d imagine they’d get the same pushback. As you can see from the comments here people are very passionate one way or another.
@@TheFirstJake Using a loophole sadly doesn't work when you're trying to please a community, people will see it as a breaking of a promise anyway. But either way we go about it, people are mad; I'd rather go the way that improves the future of the game rather than focusing on the past.
It’s okay to have a reserved list. The problem is keeping EDH a single format, and not splitting it into 2 different formats. Which is why I feel like EDH is a Ponzi scheme. EDH should have a modern and a legacy format. Watch how quickly those card prices drop. Almost no one would play legacy EDH, just like barely anyone plays regular Legacy format. The only reason card prices on reserved list go up (outside of power 9) is due to them being highly wanted for EDH- mainly dual lands, or special lands like Gaias cradle. Just split the format and run tournaments. No one is going to play legacy EDH outside of collectors. Which is why people leave MTG, they get sucked in by EDH, and then they realize they’ll never be able to compete with people who bought Mox diamonds at $50, or dual lands at $100.
EDH has always been the “play all of your old weird stuff” format. It is impossible to remove the expensive old stuff without removing the cheap old stuff without getting really granular. Splitting formats have never been a good decision to maintain a casual player base.
I hate the idea of the reserve list in general. The cards are game pieces made to be played. If you want to buy something for it to hold or gain in value you can buy stocks or gold or something instead of making certain game pieces exclusive to people with lots of money
WotC doesn't have to jump through hoops, they've reprinted even the power 9. They did it as treasures not too long ago. The reserved list is just a cop out for why they're not doing it en masse.
This isn't true. They could unilaterally decide to reprint anything from the reserved list, but they haven't printed any reserved list cards since From the Vault Relics in 2010.
@@TheFirstJake Tell me, were the vault relics before or after the establishment of the reserved list? If it was after, what kind of back lash did they suffer that would keep them from doing it again, law suits, boycotts?
I love this perspective. For better or for worse, WOTC is not going to get rid of the reserved list. I am personally against its abolishment, but I understand the argument for abolition. Not tournament playable cards on Magic Card stock with a non magic back is definitely the solution for both parties.
Right now I'm just enjoying them trying different things. It's entirely possible that we never see full reprints of the reserved list, but it's pretty cool that they're exploring the design space.
As much as I would like these cards I would rather not see treasures of this game devaluing so you can have a few cards. How about we just get good sets with new cards and let the reserve list remain something special
In any game, if they no longer make a game piece, it should be retired from the rules. Full stop. If you want it to remain a treasure, it should be sunset as a playable piece.
Mtg players that want to get rid of the reserve list are a bunch of communist losers. In baseball their is better gloves and bats to be bought. In basketball there are Jordan’s that cost much more than your regular pair of Nikes. Some people drive lambos and some drive prius’. We can’t all have the same cards. It would be devastating for the market if everything got printed to hell. I want to have different cards in my collection. Just work hard and save up if you want an expensive card. I did. It’s the American dream.
@@TheFirstJake do you see my point now? Mtg would be the only place on earth where people have equal access to the goods which would just turn people off from the game. I was just playing borderlands and thought if the game started with you owning every weapon what would be the point?
@@TheFirstJake what about all the other experiences I listed? You’re intentionally being coy because you have no argument against it. You would kill the card game you love with reprints.
You're not making an argument, you are pointing at things and saying they cost money. Then you compared a casual PvE game to a collectible PvP game. Hasbro has made no money from any cards on the reserved list in decades. Shivan Dragon has copies for $10,000 and $0.10. Reprints will not crash the market. You are wrong on every level.
Fuck the reserve list and anyone that defends it.
I'm certainly on the radical end of this - get rid of the reserved list altogether and do a big reprint set for all the cards. Does it drop the card value? Absolutely - and it's good for it. WotC has been catering to resellers and the secondary market for years, and it's not actually good for the game. Get rid of the Reserved List, give us reprints to play with.
Nah, just reprint black lotus as a love your LGS promo. Put 50,000 in circulation. It's already banned everywhere, it would cause a massive shock to the market, and would scare a lot of speculators off of holding old cards.
I don't think there's any evidence that would happen. Compare the prices of Shivan dragon. Older copies would retain their value as collectibles obviously and if they depreciate oh well cardboard is not an investment vehicle.
The main problem is WotC could and would get sued for breaking the reserved list, unfortunately.
@@Thoughtmage100 This, billions and billions of dollars is what it costs them to break the reserved list, and I don't think they make up for that in the profit of reprinting reserved list cards.
I think functional reprints are the easiest solution...
I also think something like the Judge promos but backwards (meaning that they reprint the cards with different art and/or frame and they actually print tons of them instead of a limited amount), would be the best thing to do. It will provide cheap(er) copies of those cards to people who actually want to play them. This would also help retain the value of the originally printed copies that collectors, investors and old school players have been holding on to for decades. The newly printed cards would be ubiquitous and immediately distinguishable, so the old copies' value will still lie in their scarcity.
I think the issue is with the nature of the typical Magic player. Most players aren't willing to drop loads of money for a card they're not interested in playing with. It's the reason why you don't see cards getting graded at nearly the same rate as Pokemon cards. You do see cards like Llanowar Elves with 50c versions and $150 versions, but I don't think we would see dual lands still sitting at $500-700. I am all for it though. I just want more people to be able to play the game.
@@TheFirstJake Yeah, of course, I just think that presenting players with a cheap(er) (I'm putting the '-er' in brackets because 'cheaper' doesn't necessarily mean 'cheap') alternative, and them buying that wouldn't necessarily devalue the original expensive cards because there's always going to be demand for those from collectors and investors. Especially given that in a scenario such as the one I have in mind, the cheap(er) options would look very different to the originals and would be printed in very high quantities so that the originals will still be very hard to come by in comparison.
I'm not an economist though, so I'm just speculating from an average player's point of view of course. It's just that with the way things are tight now, players are basically forced to fork out huge amounts of money for reserve list cards if they need to play them (or just proxy them, which frankly, I think is the best option).
Things might play out very differently in reality. Also, I realise that for the game to thrive the focus should be on the players, but for the business to thrive, the focus needs to be on the whales...
An interesting point: Another aspect of the RL is they can't print something more powerful than what's on the RL, so no Tri-Lands or a 5 color land that taps for more than two colors with no downside. With that in mind they can't print a "snow" land that enters untapped with land types, but they CAN print a Legendary land with land types that enter untapped because Legendary is a downside. And yes, I know we'll just tap one before Playing the other like they do with Nykthos or Gaea's Cradle but it's still weaker than a true dual and stronger than a shock land.
The underlying legal argument revolves around promissory estoppel which numerous people have commented on in the past. If Wizards were to be challenged in court, they have a very good shot at winning the argument. However, they have no incentive to take that reputational or legal risk, and would much rather pretend the problem isn’t real and the reserved list is some kind of unalterable biblical tablet. It’s frustrating…
slowly removing the lower priced cards that are basically safe from people suing can weaken the basis of promisory estoppel (and tbh, i disagree it was ever a valid argument at the start. Unfortunately the RL has made it so now)
It'd make more cards accessible, for the few that have reason to be played, and slowly bring the list down to just the cards that are actually causing the problems, making it harder to pretend the RL is a reasonable concession to collectors, and is actually just a bad idea perpetuating itself
I agree that the incentive just isn't there. Right now the people that desperately want the reserved list abolished and the people that want to keep it are in the same boat: they are a vocal minority. The vast majority of magic players don't know and/or don't care.
The issue is that people have invested into these cards precisely because WOTC made a hard promise not to reprint them and devalue them. Personally, I don't think they should have ever have done that in the first place but now that they have, it does kind of screw over those investors.
It's only an unalterable biblical tablet because they made it so.
I'm a certified reserve list hater. I don't like catering to collectors. I see why that is, but I personally believe the GAME is more important than collecting the CARDBOARD that is used to play the game.
100% agree that the game is more important. It's one of the reasons that magic has survived so long where other games have failed. The reality is the existence of the reserve list is almost entirely unfelt with the exception of the dual lands and even that becomes less and less as more styles of multiple-basic land type lands are printed.
I understand the concerns for collectors/investors for the RL cards.
Mtg has enough of a monetary barrier already and the RL is already not legal in Modern / Standard; could the rules committee just ban the RL for commander?
That was WOTC doesn’t have to deal with it, and (most) everyone is happy.
lots of rl cards are unique fun and not expensive.
I think the biggest obstacle with this is that commander has always been "the format that lets you use all your weird stuff" and banning out cards like Breathstealers Crypt and Circle of Despair has been too high a price to pay. As someone that has been playing for a very long time, a lot of my play-ables box would be banned outright.
@@alexanderficken9354 You're right. I guess I'm just used to Duals / Gaia's / Wheel so that's where my brain immediately went.
@@TheFirstJake True... that would affect all the players with existing reserve list cards, regardless not good.
It's a complicated problem, MTG is both a collectors and a players game.
Reprinting the reserved list would hurt collectors and help players, upholding it hurts players and help players.
As a player, of course I want it to be reprinted, I like playing with real cards; proxies will always exist for cEDH, but they don't quite feel the same to me on a spiritual level (lol), even the nice ones.
And to be fair, high cost of cards is not only a reserved list problem... I'd love to have a set of Sheoldreds for my standard Orzhov deck... Although much cheaper than duals, it's still not cheap.
@@brian_simmons_ Surely though, it's a game first and a collectors thing second. The collector's value is built off the product's value as a game first. So decisions should ultimately be made with the game in mind primarily.
Current Magic is for the wealthy, by the wealthy. Wizards needs to start being more accepting of either printing and selling for their average - the MAJORITY - playerbase, or they need to stop printing new cards fully until they find a perfect middleground.
As for the Reserved List, I'm all for a 'Legacy/Vintage Horizons' style set that would reprint EVERYTHING on the Reserved List, along with cards that are heavily played in both formats. This could be the best way of doing it so that, legally, they can only be played in the formats they set is named after, BUT would also get more official copies into rotation for Commander.
“First time magics experimented with token lands”
Orvar creating island tokens since 2021 😮
I mean I’m pretty sure you could make copies of dryad arbor and similar for over a decade, but this is the first card that puts specifically a token land into play.
@@TheFirstJake I knew what you meant I just thought it was funny because my orvar deck is most people’s first exposure to tokens lands. I carry Pokémon water energy cards to stand in as token islands!
Great vid 💛
Yeah your comment actually made me do some digging. Orvar is bonkers. Kinda want to build him now.
@@TheFirstJake orvar is my all time favorite commander (it doesn’t help I’m a blue mage incarnate). If you told me here’s ~50$ build an EDH deck, I’d build orvar sea creature tribal. Since a bunch of 90’s draft chaf becomes 1-2 mana ramp spells that can out ramp a mono green deck (his tokens enter untapped no matter your target), and because orvar is a changeling whelming wave misses him.
But also orvar is off meta cEDH (we have urza at home). That’s how I have him built now. Def my pet commander I’ve carried around for 3 years collecting pieces for. I guess you could say it’s “the deck that made” me 😂 anyway cheers, if you want a decklist let me know, I’d have to update it then I could get you a moxfield link.
@@SumTingWong886Interested in a decklist please!
This might be a bit long, but I do have a couple of points and a suggestion.
First off, ANY replacement or supply is going to dig into the price of those big ticket RL cards if it becomes acceptable use. Second, all of the options you've brought up are just different kinds of proxies... the issue this creates is the same we saw with Magic 30: people will look at it and ask, "If WotC is going to try to sell me a proxy, why not just order a counterfeit offline?"
We need legal reprints.
My idea for *FIXING* the reserved list is to make both sides unhappy. Two major changes to the RL: first off, start by adding new cards. WotC would probably want to 'hand pick' cards, but the main focus would be on cards which have reached high secondary market prices for an extended time period. This serves the collectors' purpose of making Magic collectible again, and gives this new generation of players a chance to enjoy this part of the game themselves. The other part is to get rid of the 'no reprints ever' clause of the Reserved List and replace it with a reprint schedule - break the RL down into four groups and reprint on group every year, but here's the catch: they can ONLY print a set number and the MUST be serialized and printed in standard legal sets throughout the year. Let's say 2000 copies.
This doesn't entirely fix the issue but if WotC doesn't move on the issue, and move soon, the game is going to be lost entirely to the 'proxy everything' kids on Reddit.
I like your ideas for fixing, but I disagree with your first point about them being proxies. People are 100% ok with Wizards printing proxies for use. The frustration with Magic 30 was 99% to do with the price. If Wizards made full proxy packs for $5 each that had reserved list cards included they would sell out instantly for as long as Wizards was willing to print them.
My personal solution for reprinting the reserve list is to just make them incredibly unappealing for collectors: Orange border with florescent green comic-sans text and emoji art. Give them the full Secret Lair experience.
@@TheFirstJake I think the frustration *SHOULD* have been the price, but you clearly haven't spent any time on the EDH subreddit. The message there is 'proxy everything, do not spend money' - to the point that they actually downvote new players who mention buying into the hobby. They consistently point to that one document WotC put out about Playtest cards and point to Magic 30 as WotC themselves endorsing proxy use, and WotC printing anything other than official cards will be twisted into the same message. WotC charging anything more than the cost MPC Fill charges will be met with the same result, and it is frankly naïve to think it won't. I doubt these people represent a large portion of the actual MTG community and I've only met a few in person (nearly always kids), but they have a loud voice in the internet spaces and it's starting to bleed into reality via groupthink psychology.
I also think you underestimate what collectors find appealing. I am largely a collector myself, though my collection is based on playability in EDH. And I love Secret Lair stuff. I go out of my way to trade out for alternate art copies all the time. The INVESTORS are the larger problem; a lot of the cost of, say, Gaea's Cradle and Timetwister is based on playability, not collectability - investors hold these cards hostage from players with massive price tags that other investors wouldn't dare pay. SO ANY downward pressure on demand based on playability effects their bottom line - you would likely bankrupt Rudy if anything lowered demand pressure on RL cards. But WotC *HAS* to do something because the proxy army is gaining ground fast.
@@MadMage86 When people want hundreds or thousands of dollars for a piece of cardstock is it any wonder people turn to proxies? At least proxies are actually affordable and let us play with cards that we'd never get to play otherwise.
@@MadMage86 I have noticed that with the EDH subreddit, which is, overall, terrible. It's not *quite* as bad as you say, but there's a certain vocal contingent that does, as you say, believe every card should be proxied and there should be consideration of cards past that. They're like wanna-be cEDHers, I guess, since they're proxying every card to put in every deck and don't believe any deck should have a budget.
These people are not the majority. The thing about them is that they don't have any sticking power. With no money in the game, when they get bored, and they will fairly quickly because there's nothing to chase, collect, or think about, they will simply toss their printouts into the trash and move on. I wouldn't worry about them too much. There's too many players that enjoy the experience of opening packs and buying cards--you know, half the reason to play the game, a collectible card game, over a video game or all-in-the-box board game in the first place.
What if those cards were ever so slightly power crept to justify giving the card a different name, like tacking gaining a life to it, then banning the reserved list cards in the formats that mattered so that those cards remain collectible-only and we get mass-produced and ever so slightly better version to use in average decks?
I knew about the reserve list as a price control tool creating scarcity for collectors, but hadn’t thought about it as a tool to better support variety in game design. Are there cards on the list for lore reasons/to support story telling?
I'd argue that this is the case for the majority of legendary creatures on the reserved list, but I don't know that anything has explicitly been added for lore reasons. Personally I think it would be cool if Legendary creatures were retired to the reserved list after lore moments. It just seems a little weird that we've gotten Queen Marchesa printed 10 times...
Agreed. Mostly I wish they were still doing book releases that connected with set releases. I think the lore is so cool and it makes me sad that they seem to be stepping back from that a bit. Not that the lore is gone, it just doesn’t feel quite as supported. I want me a good bedtime story darn it!
no cards no cards have been added for lore reasons, its exclusively by set & rarity. old enough cards above common, with some removed from that list
Honestly, I am happy to not have the reserved list gone. Now, I say this as someone who started playing this year, I have no reserve list cards so I don’t take a stake in anything.
I don’t want it back purely because some of those cards are sooooo powerful that if they were put to my playgroups, the power levels would go way higher. There are some crazy crazy cards on there that I’d rather only see once in a blue moon, rather than most of the time. Ofcourse if I wanted to play them, I’d just proxy them. Anyone who is against respectful and healthy proxying is just a douche at this point.
Yeah the issue is a huge portion of the reserved list isn’t powerful. It’s just weird. And i wish it was easier to get ahold of.
Would it be a crazy idea for WotC to make a set of cards that have different names and stuff but the same mechanics? A simple 'Nooo this isn't Black Lotus, it's Dark Rose! Very different.' would work, with players no longer needing to buy expensive cardboard, but cheap cardboard that functions the same.
Unfortunately this causes two issues: The reserved list specifies mechanically identical cards so even with the name change this is a no go and secondly, because the number of copies of cards in a deck is based on card name this would essentially allow you to run twice as many copies.
@@TheFirstJake Then I feel like if they ever were going to do something regarding the RL, it'd probably be a change to the rules of it. Abolishing the RL is drastic. One rule change isn't as crazy as that.
As for the copies of cards thing-I'd honestly be able to live with it as a casual player, but I see how tournaments can get weird about it. Maybe they take the route of banning the cards but encouraging their use in casual play? I think they've done something similar before, plus, it would decrease the dent in value the old cards would take since technically, the new cards are banned.
A slight addendum to this. If they did just make functional reprints as nicknames cards with different names it should work fine but I’d imagine they’d get the same pushback. As you can see from the comments here people are very passionate one way or another.
@@TheFirstJake Using a loophole sadly doesn't work when you're trying to please a community, people will see it as a breaking of a promise anyway. But either way we go about it, people are mad; I'd rather go the way that improves the future of the game rather than focusing on the past.
It’s okay to have a reserved list.
The problem is keeping EDH a single format, and not splitting it into 2 different formats.
Which is why I feel like EDH is a Ponzi scheme. EDH should have a modern and a legacy format. Watch how quickly those card prices drop. Almost no one would play legacy EDH, just like barely anyone plays regular Legacy format.
The only reason card prices on reserved list go up (outside of power 9) is due to them being highly wanted for EDH- mainly dual lands, or special lands like Gaias cradle.
Just split the format and run tournaments. No one is going to play legacy EDH outside of collectors. Which is why people leave MTG, they get sucked in by EDH, and then they realize they’ll never be able to compete with people who bought Mox diamonds at $50, or dual lands at $100.
EDH has always been the “play all of your old weird stuff” format. It is impossible to remove the expensive old stuff without removing the cheap old stuff without getting really granular. Splitting formats have never been a good decision to maintain a casual player base.
That's a fantastic Multiversal Park Ranger outfit.
Thanks a lot!
I hate the idea of the reserve list in general. The cards are game pieces made to be played. If you want to buy something for it to hold or gain in value you can buy stocks or gold or something instead of making certain game pieces exclusive to people with lots of money
WotC doesn't have to jump through hoops, they've reprinted even the power 9. They did it as treasures not too long ago. The reserved list is just a cop out for why they're not doing it en masse.
This isn't true. They could unilaterally decide to reprint anything from the reserved list, but they haven't printed any reserved list cards since From the Vault Relics in 2010.
@@TheFirstJake Tell me, were the vault relics before or after the establishment of the reserved list? If it was after, what kind of back lash did they suffer that would keep them from doing it again, law suits, boycotts?
I love this perspective. For better or for worse, WOTC is not going to get rid of the reserved list. I am personally against its abolishment, but I understand the argument for abolition. Not tournament playable cards on Magic Card stock with a non magic back is definitely the solution for both parties.
Right now I'm just enjoying them trying different things. It's entirely possible that we never see full reprints of the reserved list, but it's pretty cool that they're exploring the design space.
As much as I would like these cards I would rather not see treasures of this game devaluing so you can have a few cards. How about we just get good sets with new cards and let the reserve list remain something special
In any game, if they no longer make a game piece, it should be retired from the rules. Full stop. If you want it to remain a treasure, it should be sunset as a playable piece.
Reprint on one condition. I'm payed full market value for my cards before the reprinting.
You can do that right now! Go sell your cards so they can be reprinted!
@@TheFirstJake no, that is in no way something I would agree to. wizards pays me in full for broken promises, I keep my cards.
Mtg players that want to get rid of the reserve list are a bunch of communist losers. In baseball their is better gloves and bats to be bought. In basketball there are Jordan’s that cost much more than your regular pair of Nikes. Some people drive lambos and some drive prius’. We can’t all have the same cards. It would be devastating for the market if everything got printed to hell. I want to have different cards in my collection. Just work hard and save up if you want an expensive card. I did. It’s the American dream.
I’m really sorry for triggering you. I hope you find a safe space that’s more hospitable.
@@TheFirstJake do you see my point now? Mtg would be the only place on earth where people have equal access to the goods which would just turn people off from the game. I was just playing borderlands and thought if the game started with you owning every weapon what would be the point?
Borderlands, the famously balanced and interesting PvP experience!
@@TheFirstJake what about all the other experiences I listed? You’re intentionally being coy because you have no argument against it. You would kill the card game you love with reprints.
You're not making an argument, you are pointing at things and saying they cost money. Then you compared a casual PvE game to a collectible PvP game. Hasbro has made no money from any cards on the reserved list in decades. Shivan Dragon has copies for $10,000 and $0.10. Reprints will not crash the market. You are wrong on every level.
Maybe it is ok that players can't play all the cards? No such thing as a cheap competitive deck.
Isn’t that a problem? I’d rather play your brain than your wallet.
@@TheFirstJake some people like to collect rare things and paid a lot of money, that was a big financial choice, and wish those cards to retain value
SO MANY BAD IDEAS IN ONE VIDEO!!!
As long as they keep trying new things it’s good with me.
WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE INVESTORS, HOARDERS AND SCALPERS !!! 🥲😭😭😭
OMG THOSE POOR BABIES! Somebody get them a “City in a [baby] bottle”!