Fenrir The Destroyer | Ultimate Evil or Misunderstood Victim? (Feat.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 มิ.ย. 2024
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Further Videos:
Wolf's Channel: / wolfthered
Wolf and Myself discussing Ancestor Veneration: • Wolf and @OceanKeltois...
Puppers of Norse Myth: • Eight Incredible Dogs ...
Hel: Goddess of Death: • Hel: The Norse Goddess...
Sol and Mani: • Sol and Mani | How Two...
Many Gods of Heathenry: • The Many Gods of Heath...
Surtr Worship: • The Search for the Nor...
The Mjolnir: • Why Do We Wear the Mjo...
Reciprocity: • How Does Worshipping T...
Nidhoggr: • Nidhoggr | The Apocaly...
Viking Luck: • The Vikings Saw Luck W...
The Northman: • Okay So We Gotta Discu...
Odin's Havamal: • The Mysterious Origins...
Further Reading:
- Dictionary of Northern Mythology - Rudolf Simek
- Handbook on Norse Mythology - John Lindow
- Myth and Religion of the North - EOG Turville-Petre
- Loki in Scandinavian Mythology - Anna Brigitta Rooth
- Heimskringla - Snorri Sturluson
- Egil's Saga
- Poetic Edda
- Prose Edda - Snorri Sturluson
- Eiriksmal
00:00 - Intro
00:42 - Wolves in Norse Myth
02:22 - Angrboða, Hel & Jörmungandr
03:40 - The Binding of Fenrir
06:22 - Prophecy, Revenge & Garmr
09:12 - Fenrisúlfr & The Fate of Fenrir
10:07 - Eiriksmal & Hakonarmal
11:14 - Christian Influence & The Fettered Devil
13:55 - How can you work with a God Killer?
15:58 - Praxis with @WolfTheRed
18:25 - My View on Fenrir
music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
Fenrir's story is so sad, almost made me shed a Tyr...
Ocean has corrupted you. I appreciate that.
Good pun. I hate it, like all its kind, but a good one.
Baha
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!! 😂 😂😂😂😂
Oh, you Friggin bastard lmaoo
Fenrir feels like the embodiment of “Fuck around and find out,” or, “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.”
Like his father, the champion of stupid prizes? 🤔
My perception of Loki's children are roughly as follows, at least when it comes to them as symbols. Jormungandr represents the right to exist despite oppression, Fenrir represents the fight againt oppression, and Hel represents healing and caring in the face of oppression.
I agree with your Hell interpretation of healing and reneval.
As Jormundandr is a "giant child" of Jotynheim/Utgard, I have this to be located "in heaven" and represent the Midgard Serpent which encircle the entire Midgard, the Earth, hence this can only by the whitish contours of the Milky Way wich encircle the Earth in the (night) Sky.
This Midgard Serpent encircling again refer logically to your Ouruboros symbol too.
Didn't he had more?
@@LightningFox7 yes, but I meant the children he had with Angrboda
Such a bullshit opinion for real.
I'm a professional dog trainer at a rescue. I wear a Fenrir pendant. It's a reminder to be Tyr-like in my approach and give them agency and choice. Humans in general seem to like to take agency away from others and that means that when those animals follow their instincts and lash out at the mishandling, pain, and fear WE cause, we have fulfilled our own prophecy.
Fenrir was the victim. It's never the dog's fault.
❤
I personally don't think Fenrir is "evil" but is a chaotic force. To me the binding of Fenrir is a story about how we can hold off chaos but we'll never be rid of it.
I think that's what the story was going for but with evil as well. It clearly says Fenrir was evil. It's also about how you can't deny fate(a big part of the culture) but you can work with it to get the best result.
My central concept of evil is selfishness, harming others, without their compensation & consent, to make personal gains. An I-win-You-lose arrangement imposed, rather then offer, consideration, & acceptance. I see recurring themes where the latter is technically fulfilled, but deception leads to the former. That makes the binding of Fenrir a cautionary tale at least twice over; first, to be very wary of what LOOKS at first to be a deal "too good to be true", here the right hand is a big deal to give up, though near-permanent bondage is far greater.
The other is that even if "getting one over on" someone with such trickery, that is technically, literally legal but violates the spirit of comradery, exploitive, does come at a price. Fenrir comes to the conclusion over a long time spent brooding that if the law & the Asgardians allow such to be seen as just & proper, clearly their rules fail to ensure EVERYONE is treated fairly, they can't actually be proper, right, ethical, so it may take a long time, but eventually there will be an opportunity, and his recourse is revolution, to help destroy the unjust system used to exploit him.
Well said. The wolfs nature is to hunt. The greedy farmer cant share what belongs to nature? Who is against nature I say is more evil... Being your true nature can not be evil.
@@LightbringerDesigns For there to be peace there must be war when unjust rules.
Interesting that fenrir got the sweet end of the deal in the beginning, living in asgard where jormungandr gets thrown into the sea and hel down into the underworld
I have felt Fenrir is a figure that empathizes with the betrayed. Forgiveness is an important thing to be able to give to another who wrongs you. But, when one breaks your trust that must not be forgotten. Not held as a grudge but kept in mind, those who break the trust of another should be held to account. I have recently suffered a betrayal from someone who claimed to love me. I may forgive the person but I cannot give them the same trust I once did.
Fenrir's story is definitely sad, he was born with amazing abilities and instead of the God's gaining his trust and perhaps using his strength to aid them, they in turn feared him and had him chained. The part where Fenrir bites the hand of Tyr always makes me think of the phrase, "Don't bite the hand that feeds you". I think both you and Wolf have great points, thank you again for an amazing video Ocean.
There's a great line in The Crane Wives' song "The Hand that Feeds": "He taught me the hand that feeds/ deserves to be bitten when it beats" - to me, that's a lesson that Fenrir teaches. Your loyalty should end the moment people begin to mistreat you.
As a Lokean, I was a little nervous going into this that Fenrir was just going to be put on blast for being evil. I'm glad to see that the complexity of his story wasn't ignored.
Fenrir is evil. He always was only a plot device to establish Tyr as a brave and honor-bound god. Nothing more.
I don't include Fenrir in my hearth cult, but I do empathise with him. I have a lot of respect for him and I get his motives. You and Wolf both make some great points about Fenrir in this video. This was super fascinating, and I definitely understand why one might have praxis with Fenrir. Thanks for another great video!
likewise. i often think that if Odin wasn't so paranoid would things have gone different? Tyr obviously befriended him so i do think that he could have been treated better
I always assumed Fenrir was Fear. I mean, all of Loki's kin are, Sleipnr included, but Fenrir is more representative of domestic fears. With the right outlook, Fear can be tamed and made a friend that will protect you. He becomes an ally that warns you of your foes and bites into your enemy. But if you don't respect him, if you bind him and restrain him against his will, he will turn on you and make you weak. A Fear that is not faced and simply bound is not defeated.
Fenrir's story reminds me of a Lakota story that teaches not to try and see into the future or prophesy. Because trying to prevent a specific out come, will only bring that outcome. So I would like to work with Fenrir.
Definitely the point I agree with the most. I blame the prophets most of all.
What’s the name of the story?
I’m a big fan of positive interpretations of the “evil” deities, so Fenrir as embodiment of justice for the oppressed vibes really well with me.
Loved the video as always, it’s great to see the thought provoking and nuanced ideas you bring!
Very interesting point, Valkyrie.
It rings in my hugr as Tyr(justice and law) and Fenrir (anarchy and vigilantism). Both naturally want justice, but from different views and methods.
They're both symbols of justice but; Tyr seems like a court judge, with law and tradition, and Fenrir is the force of nature like rebellion.
we also need to remember that in traditional Germanic/Norse perspectives, the duality of good and evil was likely not the case, whereas the duality of order and chaos was more in line with culture.
Take Odinn, for example. He committed numerous violations of societal sacred norms (i.e. breaking oaths) in pursuit of knowledge/enlightenment, yet he is not demonized as the Jotnar are. based on the duality of good and evil, Odinn should be considered evil, yet he is situated deified in a positive light.
From what I've learned, this is because the Æsir represent the order created by man, whereas the Jotnar represent the chaos and unpredictable nature of nature. Fenrir, therefore, can represent man's abuse and attempt to control nature, which ultimately fails in the end.
You try to see the dichotomy of order and chaos in a non christian sense, but then you try to view the Gods and their deeds through a modern lense. But zhis is not the way to understand the nature of thr gods. The gods are good despite the deeds they did and we see as bad, because norse view on such things was different than today. Loki for example was not seen as evil because he was ergi or chaotic or anything. He has been described as that because he is evil. Beside that Loki is assumed to be a rather new addition to the myths of the Eddas as he didnt appear in attestations before.
I like the nuance in this take. Fenrir and other controversial deities (like Loki) often get essentialized based on a strict reading of the myths, without taking into account the christian influences in the surviving texts that reference them. Examining sources critically for bias is important, but it's definitely a skill that has to be learned.
Nicely put
Like Hades
I definitely think looking deeper than surface level is best. Fenrir gives vibes of a misunderstood good boi who just has as a lot of energy. But Wolf definitely worded his view in a way that definitely made sense. No Justice? No Peace. It makes sense because you want to give justice and right the wrong, even if damage unfolds. Definitely loved the video, I appreciate the work you put into these videos, and I loved the collab piece with Wolf. It's amazing!
Hmm. This is an interesting argument. As you said, in Fenrir's mind, he's the hero; or at the very least, the one being wronged. And on one hand, I can see that being the case. Odin saw Fenrir as a threat because of prophecy, so he decides to get out in front of it. But, what would have happened if Odin had chosen to ignore the prophecy? What if instead of creating that enemy, he had chosen to give the helpupper his headpats instead? Where does propechy begin: at the telling of it, or when certain actions put it into motion? Does the fear of prophecy set it into motion? Would ignoring the "potential" threat of Fenrir have stopped the prophecy? Maybe not all of Ragnarok, but at least the part about Odin's death. But perhaps he could have been turned ally.
But, I also see Wolf's point. As a symbol, I can see Fenrir's part in a ritual or a hearthcult to be useful - especially in these times, as Wolf also mentions. To have the beast as a guardian could do some good. Maybe my thoughts above play into that idea, as well. Perhaps if Odin had chosen to win Fenrir over instead of binding him, he would have the great beast to watch over Asgard instead of plotting his downfall.
Or maybe I'm overthinking it. Who can be sure? But as always, another great video, Ocean.
This is why more than anyone I blame the prophets. Don’t trust the Norns and treat fate as something to be fought: th-cam.com/video/4f1lVzBDr_4/w-d-xo.html
In the old beliefs fate couldn't be denied. They say it many times both in quotes from living people and in the stories. So once the norn says something it's going to be true. However how that plays out is usually vague. They prophecies don't tend to be super specific. It usually like, you'll be betrayed on the battlefield by a friend.
You now have two choices. Betray everyone first(and probably get betrayed in the process) or be the best you can and just realize that your end is going to be at a friend's hand.
The general attitude was to do the best you can. Just go into every fight giving it your all. You don't know that this is the one you'll lose so be the best because how you die determines where you go.
Also the wolf was considered pretty scummy back then, they didn't have the Jungle Book and natgeo. They saw them as rabid dogs basically. They bond Fenrir because he would have destroyed a lot of stuff before killing Odin if they hadn't. They say in the story that Fenrir had his mother's evil and his father's greater evil. The the moral seems to be chaining evil and chaos up as well as you can but knowing it's going to get free eventually. Basically doing the best you can.
I feel the mistake a lot of people make is thinking of Fenrir as an innocent puppy instead of an evil/chaotic wolf demon. Remember only Tyr was brave enough to go around him, that includes Thor who killed Joutnar like Fenrir as a job to protect his worshippers (Joutnar are the cause of disease and other evils in the tales).
It could be that Odin kept Fenrir around to try and ally with him to fight fate, that seems like an Odin thing to do. Only to realize that wasn't going to happen. But the story doesn't tell us either way. Only that Fenrir was basically born evil.
@@majinjasonI think you are on to the right vein and the majority of people are neo-something looking to transpose their own philosophy and understanding of the environment into the past which was completely alien.
As a practitioner of a non-monotheistic african-derived religion in Brazil (there is debate about the monotheism of the various Orisha cults that came from africa with the enslaved people trafficked from there, but I consider myself a polytheistic person), your channel helps me greatly to navigate around diverse concepts of worship and worldview without the latent christianity that is prevalent around here.
The praxis of Fenrir touched me because we offer to our gods and spirits in much the same way around here. Good to know that the cross has a weakened grasp in other people around the world too.
I love the idea of even after the binding and removal of his hand, Tyr would still feed Fenrir and dare I say... was possibly the one who freed him
It would make sense, as he does seem to have been the god who empathized with him the most, and as god of justice it would be a perfectly logical thing to do if he felt that Fenrir was the one being wronged. Would also explain why Fenrir chose to go after Odin rather than Tyr
@@Amy_the_Lizard Well said! My headcanon is that after Ragnarok ended and all life was restored Tyr and Fenrir made amends and now have an unbreakable bond!
@@Amy_the_Lizard in a way tyr is also betrayed by the gods, fenrir did just what he sad he woud do if he got betrayed.
Fenrir en tyr trust eachother even after that just because of fenrir keeps his word something the other gods did not.
No one is born as a beast, but treat someone as one and the will become one.
Fenrir is a beast created by the gods.
@@stefan-ox8qs Tyr gave up his authority over the gods after the binding because of it. He betrayed an oath, Fenrir's trust, and lost his right hand because of it. He could no longer swear another oath.
So in a sense Odin's cowardice betrayed Tyr and allowed him to take his authority away.
I don't view Fenris as a villain at all but he was an outsider & the child of Loki who was viewed with some suspicion & mistrust. So you get themes of self fullfilling prophecies, making an enemy unneccesarily, fear of The Other & punishing children for the sins of the father all leading to destruction. Fenris also literally bites off the hand that feeds him...I really like this myth.
Making your worst prophecies come true does seem to be a common mythological theme around the world
I struggle so much with trying to determine how much is Christianization. On the one hand, Christianity preserved so much, but also it erased to much. This comes up with Freya a lot as well.
My views on Fenrir are different from most that I've encountered, as I actively worship him. In fact, he is the one who features most prominently on my altar. And the one who I attribute to leading me down this path to begin with. As I was leaving Christianity, my first experience with what I now know to be gods, was with him through a series of dreams and trances. I have long dealt with betrayal from people who I had thought I could trust, and he came to me during one of the worst of those times. To me, while yes, he is a destroyer, he is also a guardian who has led me through some of my worst times. And through learning about him, I came to worship others, Loki, Hel, Jörmungandr, as well as his own sons Sköll and Hati. I shall always honor the wolf at my altar, as he saved me from destroying myself.
For further insight on my own take on him, I view him as one who stands against betrayal, and in a sense, a beacon for those like me who feel betrayed, and oppressed by those who they were supposed to trust. In my own worship of him, he offers me strength and perseverance to overcome the challenges in my life. And he empowers me to seek justice when wronged. And, I've found that he has been a guiding light for me, a guardian in a sense, appearing in dreams and in trance when I perform ritual when I am starting to go down the path of self destruction again, the path that those betrayers had set me down before.
Thanks for your story. Of course animals are not evil at all. They just follow their "godgiven" purposes and in mythical and tribal traditions much can be learned meditatively and intuitively from all living beings and vegetables.
Personally I have Fenrir to be a specific star constellation close to the Earth´s North Pole axis around Fenrir rotates, hence is "tied too".
these experiences I read from other people make me think that we must be connecting to something very real.
Similar to you, I was deeply betrayed by everyone; I was on a path towards death. Wolves & Foxes started showing up in my dreams, and around this time is when my life turned on its head. After some mystical experiences I decided to set off and travel my country until I found some sort of answer to my life, I guess.
I have had sore amazing experiences in my travels, but the one I want to tell about was during a mushroom trip I went on this last summer.
I first went to this void, and here all of my life was explained to me, it was very soothing. Then, 'I' died. Oblivion. Then there was a stir in this primordial chaos & a great canid-type creature was there. They gave me this myth to transmit:
Before creation, there was the emptiness. From emptiness came the full, eternal light.
Because this energy saturated all 'space' completely, and 'outside' of it there was only emptiness, there could be no manifestations.
In this primordial state, there was already a will to life. The 'person'ification of the void willed, and it consumed everything. Creation was no longer empty or blindingly bright, it was black. In this great one's womb the world was crafted and nourished, and finally 'she' gave birth to All Creation.
Since the birth of the world, this great beast only consumes half of the world instead of all of it, creating the infinite cycle of birth and death.
In my theology/cosmology the cycles of transformation aren't a hell to be escaped but instead are the foundation of reality that needs to be harmonized with.
Thus in my conception, beings like trees and mushrooms would be the most heavenly forms of life found on Earth, while humans would be among the lowliest of creatures, their peers being rats and monkeys and such.
Raptors to me symbolize imperial human rule, Serpents represent degenerate human rule (current world) wolves represent the rebellion against the rulers of humanity and the end of all nations, and lastly foxes represent the post-apocalypse state where heaven and earth are once again in perfect unity; new life.
On the individual scale, I take this cycle to be symbolic of the true unified nature of life&death. Death is the vehicle to our new birth, it is the universal medicine and liberation.
Many argue "Fear death, Love life" vs "Fear life, Love death". Personally, I believe if we are to be wise we should love and appreciate both.
Hopefully the ramblings of this wandering madman might be of some use to ya.
Fenrir was the reason I started my Norse pagan journey.
❤
Wolf's view and your final conclusions about Fenrir are similar to how I approach Loki. To me, he is the chaos that supports order by challenging it. It is interesting to see such similar takes with his son.
I also think the idea that you brought up of "Why Odin at Ragnarok instead of Tyr?" is answered by Fenrir's biting of Tyr's hand.
The vengeance had been exacted upon Tyr for being a part of The Binding, but the organizer of the event was ultimately Odin.
So, I’m still a Christian, but Fenrir has been showing up a lot for me recently (mostly across my social medias, but I have noticed this elsewhere as well). Weirdly it has been exclusively him showing up so I’ve started trying to look into his story more. Yours is the first video I found on him that’s more than 3 minutes and actually had some depth to it, and for that, I thank you.
Still have no idea why he’s showing up everywhere, but I suppose I can keep looking
I'm Christian also but I believe Fenrir represents the innocent being oppressed/betrayed.
If He was treated with respect and love, he wouldn't be bitter and vengeful.
It's kinda sad how bad the mistreated him.
I think Paganism is calling you two
Thank you thank you thank you from the bottom of my Heathen heart for making this video. The story of Fenrir and Tyr is deeply important to me. I made it through 6 years of K9 shelter work and cruelty investigations…I have several professional designations in canine behavioural biology and force free/fear free training. I had the privilege to get to know and look after so very many misunderstood, fearfully aggressive dogs that were abandoned to a system that was ultimately not always looking out for the best interest of the dog. Staying with an organization that you know is not doing right by these animals, and trying to do your gd best to keep your head above water, and keep the heads of the dogs you love above water, is beyond any kind of torture one can describe. I have lost a part of myself forever, and I was aware of this as it was happening. I am putting back together my shattered heart and brain…one day at a time. Fenrir and Tyr are part of this every day for me 🖤🖤🖤
Really like Wolf's view of Fenrir and it makes a lot of sense. Great video as always Ocean.
"Give him a hand " he said lmfao.
Im not about to grab a Fenrir idol, however touching on Wolf's veneration of Fenrir, I can see how one could incorporate such things into their praxis.
We don't have Wolves here, but we do have lots of bears, and while bears are truly terrifying, they still "Bear" a tremendous amount of strength, resilience and majesty.
Perhaps veneration of Fenrir will require a revisit in my mind, because I already venerate Garmir, and if the two are the same....
Skol Brother, your description at the end of your distillation of the idea of Fenrir as a reflection of Tyr being the necessary force to oppose the corruption of justice “the chains that bind us” gave me goosebumps. Thank you for the work you do providing a resource for those of us that seek a deeper understanding of the gods.
Oh my, I love that interpretation by Wolf the Red. It started a whole line of thought in my mind, about the social order enforcers (aka the gods) of norse mythology being imperfect, faillible and temporary beings: this leaves space within the myth for social change and questioning the established order, which I think is such an improvement over religions that try to sell you a perfect, unchanging order. Thank you so much for all this time you spend formulating thoughts and shaping your beliefs, and then sharing with us!
Excellent video! I’ve interpreted Fenrir as you’ve described as a shape shifter. I view the nickname The Wolf sorta like Geralt of Rivia’s nickname, White Wolf. As a name for a traveler to be taken as he was said to have traveled the world and learned all of the languages of men. In my mind, his shape shifting ability is a lot like the Hulk in that he can change to the form of a giant wolf when provoked, but otherwise is tame. I view Jormungandr the same way.
I had a revelation about the natures of Fenrir and Tyr, and how they relate to our being and how the world works. Thank you.
I loved this. Thank you Ocean and Red as well. I have a lot of thoughts on this and some are more well formed than others. For one, I definitely identify with the Breaker of chains aspect when identifying with Fenrir, but part of that identification also identifies with Tyr, namely the disability in my life and always feeling on the outside periphery of the social sphere.
Right now due to economic reasons attached to my disability, I’m stuck in assisted living, feeling tricked into it in a way that I suspected (just like Fenrir in that sense too,) and stuck waiting on an SSI application while already having to file for bankruptcy (another reason I’m trying to have faith in Wolf’s land project and faithfully awaiting updates!) I feel a lot of anger towards some of my family for this, who in this one stance I compare to the Christianized-Æsir, while also smart enough to understand that part of this has to do with the capitalist system we live in, which I metaphorically compare not only to the soft looking fetters, but the deterministic fetters and threads of the Norns (who I do consider more malevolent than most but that’s getting off topic.)
As for Tyr’s legality and disability, this personal and theistic context makes me see him in a complicated light. While I identify with his “incompleteness” through disability (both the hand and possible autistic compulsion towards honor and consistency,) the price he pays feels like just deserts in the natural contradictions and hypocrisy that is legality (the need to use violence to stop violence.). I think a lot more people have leaning towards that understanding for a long time, with the militarization of police, among other things.
It’s starting to feel like I’m rambling, even though I could go on, so I’ll try to hit more points. These feelings of systemic failure and injustice bringing out the feral beast in us can definitely be compared not only in modern literature, like house Stark in ASOIAF, but also in real life, where packs of wolves are shown to provide natural order in the food chain and also in territorial divisions resembling property rights in humans. Maybe these things are a sign that we eventually need to move away from bureaucracy towards more biomimetic institutions, but that is one of many reasons for my faith today.
This video for Fenrir feels long overdue, but I once again thank Ocean and Wolf for it, so may we find a way, or make one.
Also in addition to the ASOIAF parallels Jamie Lannister can be compared to Tyr in how he loses his hand and points out the contradictions of the law.
Thank you for a actual look into Fenrir the betrayed.
"Tyr was there to....... give him a hand" DEAD I DIED LAUGHING
Time to read the anamorph books again.
Great video as always. The story if Tyr and Fenrir has always stood out to me.
K.A Applegate has another series called 'Everworld' which heavily features many types of mythology and Fenrir, Loki and several other Norse figures are featured in it!
Very interesting! Always find it interesting that it is forgotten that Fenrir, like Frankenstien’s monster, did nothing wrong in the beginning and all subsequent actions were as a result of other’s crimes against them. I see Fenrir as the righteously wronged for something he had no control over.
Other Aesir: Fenrir, the destroyer is a monster, a horrible beast that should never be trusted or approached.
Tyr: Haha pupper
Being Irsh and the whole legends of werewolves did come in part actually from the ancient forests which were there until unfortunately the 16th century when the forest burned for five years ..yes really historically recorded. the grim wolves went extinct in Ireland in the 1880s .. but the spirit of defiance when required .. is a good thing to tap into and I do so when needed as do most ..
I’ve always just felt bad for poor Fenrir. He never asked to be so big, he never did anything worth being punished until his trust was brutally betrayed. I don’t personally work with him, but more from a sense of already being spread too thin with my current deities than any fear of Fenrir.
I was lucky enough to visit some captive wolves in a sanctuary some years ago (wolves who had been bred in captivity and thus could not be truly released ever, but had massive enclosures, lots of enrichment and all the wildness they could be provided). Part of the tour included getting to go inside two of the enclosures with the friendliest wolves, who, probably sensing my raw excitement at being so close to them, immediately became my new best friends. My face was raw with rough wolf kisses by the end, my cheeks aches from grinning and I could hardly speak, it was such an overwhelmingly wonderful experience. Also, wolf zoomies are possibly the best thing ever!
I guess I imagine Fenrir a bit like those wolves. He was born basically into captivity, but the people at the wolf sanctuary have no illusions that these are just big puppers. You do have to be careful, even when you’re visiting them, and you have to sign waivers before entering the enclosures. They understand that, friendly as some of them are, they are still wild animals. So was Fenrir. Tyr was the only one who had the right idea in the story, imo. I like to think about how things would have worked out if Tyr had been allowed to continue to raise Fenrir and earn his trust. I bet it would have ended very differently. I see Fenrir as the victim in the story, although one who will get his revenge. But I cannot blame him for doing what he does. He’s ultimately a wild animal who the gods gained the trust of, then squandered.
This is very interesting and gave me goosebumps a few Times.
Especially in context to whats happening right now all over the world.
Last year I drew a picture, didnt plan anything, Just let my hands Work, to give a gut feeling some image.
I didnt expect a mutilated, ravenous Version of fenrir
Was not expecting the animorphs reference 😂
shapeshifters, man
Finally my Fenrir video!!!
What a video for me to come back on. 8:38-8:47, this questioning jogs a little thought in my head. What if Garmr is indeed Fenrir's name (either by birth or given by Tyr after taking him in) and when he was bound a part of Fenrir's soul departed from the grief of the betrayal. One half went with Hel, while the vengeful fragment that remains chained. Thus, come Ragnarok, it is the tragic reminder that he couldn't do more for the pupper that confronts Tyr while the pent up rage and vengence consumes Odin.
In my own head-canon Óðinn learned about necromancy and the ability to create the einherjar from Hel and not the other way around. Maybe he even became a blood brother with Loki in exchange for learning Hel's secrets? Though, I like more the idea of Óðinn and Loki having been good friends making Loki's binding more dramatic and tragic.
great discussion on fenrir! as a worshipper of set, it's always interesting to me to hear about demonized gods from other traditions.
Really amazing video as always! Fenrir deserves headpats
An interesting parallel I find with Fenris is that with his younger brothers that may hold some insight is with his younger brother vali is also turned into a wolf and is used to kill their other brother narfi who’s guts are used during the binding of Loki to imprison their father and their is a snake and wolf imagery use with them. Perhaps in some way narfi and vali, they were once also the human forms of their elder brothers, since I have also heard the argument for Fenris to have been one of Loki’s name and the Fenris wolf is his wolf or in this case the son who transformed into a wolf to murder his brother only for his guts to be used to bind their father Loki with the snake and perhaps that sons body was throw into the sea were it, and took a serpent shape.
I love Wolf the Red's approach to Fenrir. I also find that Fenrir is the father of all wolves of myth. The mother I view (syncretically) is that of Mars' she-wolf, Lupa. This may also validate some Tyr and Mars syncretism while keeping them independent: allies who allowed their favorite dogs to breed, further strengthening their connection.
I never saw Tyr as violating the trust. Rather, by offering his hand which he knew he would lose, he was showing his allegiance to Fenrir while at the same time staying true to the gods.
I come from the Native American wolf people but I’m also half Irish with Nordic markers I’ve been searching for a channel like this and I’m so thankful I found yours! Let the learning begin lol! Thank you!!!!
really great video! Wolf's section gave me a perspective I had never thought about before, but it fits perfectly. loved it :)
The Aesir: Umm yeah, that’s the beast destined to bring the end of everything…
Tyr: HOOSAGOOBOY?!?!
Does that mean that Fenrir's favorite drink is a Handshake?
Cue 🥁
I couldn't agree with @Wolf the Red more. I venerate Fenris as well. I also have a very good relationship with Tyr and even use the title Keeper or Caretaker of wolves when conversing or giving offerings to him. The fear of Odin towars the prophecy and his trickery on Fenris has actually made it difficult for me to build a relationship with him.
I agree with the idea of fenrir being the breaker of chains I often relate to Fenrir story because I had A shit high school life and teachers from school who were my friends but they betrayed me so I think fan mirror is mostly misunderstood as I was back in high school
Imagine if Garmr is like a time-displaced Fenrir, or his shadow is sentient like Peter Pan's. It came off so one might survive and be free, and if they could avenge themselves, they'd reunite. The shadow gets the rest of Tyr, the body devours Odin but gets destroyed. And so, Hel, unwilling to further help her firey brother who disturbs her cold domain, leaves him like a wraith.
This suddenly suggests the most ironic praxis of all. Hanging out wolf pelts for Garmr to take, like inverse christmas stockings, so he can be whole again, if only in part.
Man, I think I need to chill. I already invested so much time thinking of how to make Fenrir like... an anime antagonist, basically. Ended up fusing him with Cerberus, and making this steely, unholy, undead, shapeshifting wolf god. But that makes me think... Garmr... this is a nice name.
Anyways, instead of being completely tangential, I ask one to consider how nihilistic thouht might instead be the vehicle for worship of a vengeful wolf of ruin. As if one felt spurned by both gods and men, so one felt to raze or devour the world.
Amazing video!! I have huge respect for him as a being and one of my favorites from the Norse mythology as a whole. Thanks for making this video Ocean!!
Fenrir is an unbound force of destruction, anger and revolt. Perhaps he would be of use in an odinic Ulfhednar cult, I think he's also mentioned in the rirual song in the northman. I personally admire him a lot and sort of identity with him.
I think Wolf’s explanation of his interpretation of Fenrir explains a lot about my personal feelings towards him. I always had a connection to the story even before I was a pagan. I feel like it also explains a lot about Tyr’s connection to him. Tyr having some connections to justice and Fenrir being a “chain breaker” makes a lot of sense. Fenrir is the “chaotic” side of the same justice I connect with Tyr’s “lawfulness”. The two have always stood out and called to my personal moral compass, and the connection between the two, the trust they have formed, could speak a lot to their similarities.
Fenrir is my cat's name. He is a quiet boy that is wildly powerful but very timid to exercise his strength. He is very gentle and very powerful. His heart is bigger than any human I have met. He was found in the wild with burrs coating his fur and his eyes and nose badly infected. He then was adopted by a family with small childen that returned him. He had a tendency to panic around unpredictable men. Luckily, I was the next one to stumble upon this giant of a cat--cowering in the back of his cage. While he was obviously terrified to leave his cage. He was always so careful not to hurt me when I reached in. Now we have had him for about a year and a half, and he grows more powerful and self-assured and loved every day. He is speaking again, he no longer fears being locked up, and he seems so happy to have found someone that could look past this scary, giant, wolf-looking cat into the incredibly intelligent and beautiful soul.
I may speak like I am important or something, but mainly I feel incredibly lucky and wanted to tell his story like that in order to help empower the mythology of the power of this name. It took us a long time to find a name that fit our big little boy, and then Fenrir came up and it fit him beautifully. This is how I have chosen to honor the Fenrir of the mythologies. I teach him to be gentle and understanding but also that he is powerful and there is nothing bad about him having such power as long as he uses it responsibly. I never let him see me hurt when and if he gets me--even though his claws are about half an inch long and at least a quarter of an inch thick! I make sure he knows that not all of humanity is quick to becoming judgemental and willing to lock him up. He is my boy for life now. We are bonded now and I would happily protect that boy with my life if I had to. I'm not one for pity, either. Its just that what is right is right and he has suffered needlessly for too long.
Coming out of left field with the animorphs reference. Didn't know Ocean was so cultured. Was a pleasant surprise.
Great video. Some very interesting view points you guys have. I do believe you're right, that Fenrir is the rebellious force, that needs unleashed when injustice rears its ugly face. You are highly appreciated, and i love watching your videos...
As a Christian I find this all fascinating. And with the DNA test from my mother being from Scandinavia I find great interest in Norse vikings ect. My best friends wife believes in Norse religion. And I think it's awesome.
As a wise master once said, “One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it.”
They became so concerned about the prophecy about Fenrir that they perhaps caused his murder of Odin
I have no idea how it had never occurred to me that Loki's kids could be shape shifters, therefore enabling something like Fenrir's"wolf form". Very interesting take.
On Wolf's contribution, I also find the idea of "useful chaos" something to explore. It's certainly a powerful idea, and one I see and encourage in the world, myself, from time to time.
I believe that to some degree or another each of Loki's children, as with loki himself, have purpose and meaning beyond the negative interpretation we are so commonly given. I think wolf the red has a point in that there is a time and place to call upon fenrir but not as a common practice. For even if the destruction of a false system is warranted, suffering will most certainly, at least for a time, follow in its wake, even if in the long run it causes a net gain.
SKÁLD’s “Gleipnir” was playing in my head during this whole video. 😄
I think we can learn something of value from all the gods and figures of Norse myth, those heroic and villainous. Totally agree with your outlook on Fenrir, Ocean. I’ve always gotten anti-oppressor vibes from Fenrir’s story. Also agree with Wolf that he’s worth veneration, but not without caution. Great video.
I really like Ocean and Wolf's take on Fenrir. I've never included him in my hearthcult but I can appreciate and understand why some would. I never thought him as evil or malicious more like an uncontrollable force of the cosmos that even the Gods, in their hubris and folly, tried to contain and control as well as a poor pup that got shafted hard. I will consider offering to Fenrir after watching this but I definitely agree with Wolf that it should be done very sparingly.
Another aspect of Fenrir's story and Ragnarok that I find strange is Odin's decision to bind Fenrir and how it results in Odin's death. Odin is known for his relentless pursuit of wisdom and knowledge, no matter the sacrifice. So, when you consider all the different types of knowledge he has gained access to, it seems very strange that he brings about his own demise through his treatment of Fenrir (plus Loki and his other children, but mainly Fenrir).
One would think that Odin with his near-infinite knowledge would have realized that by unjustly punishing Fenrir, he would be creating the very enemy that would destroy him. Or at the very least, he should have seen it as the most likely possibility.
I see a few possible explanations for this (story-wise):
1. The Norse Gods (like many other deities) have very human personalities and tendencies. So, it could be that after obtaining so much knowledge, he became arrogant and overlooked the warning signs that should have been obvious to him. Maybe he didn't realize his mistake until after the damage had already been done and then accepted his fate.
2. Odin knew exactly what would happen and chose to have Fenrir bound anyway because he knew that Ragnarok had to happen. Maybe he saw the events of Ragnarok (including his death at the jaws of Fenrir) as the best possible outcome in order for the world to begin anew (kind of like a mixture of Jesus Christ and Dr. Strange in "Avengers: Infinity War")
I would love to hear any thoughts or opinions on this subject since I find Odin to be one of the most interesting and admirable deities. But, his decision to have Fenrir bound was something that always rubbed me the wrong way, partially because I love wolves and I always felt bad for Fenrir.
And yes, I fully agree. FENRIR DESERVES HEAD PATS, and I would be first in line to give him one... except I like having all of my limbs intact 😛
Your presentation of Fenrir as, on some level, being a manifestation of Tyr really resonates with me because that is a big part of how I view the relationship between Athena and the Gorgon head on her breastplate. The Gorgon is a part of who she is, and especially if you want to get to her heart, you've gotta confront that face.
One ***could*** view it allegorically
She who offers sorrow birthed the ruler of the realm of the dead, the serpent in the wide ocean (unknown), and *the* wolf.
Death, unknown, and hunger. What else brings so much sorrow?
Furthermore, the wolf could not be held by chains, could not be broken by strength. But could be by other means (taming, ahem, dogs).
Not a framing I like, but certainly *a* framing of the story.
Alternatively, not the unknown, but the ocean itself, considering how much sailing had an influence on norse mythology.
I think of Fenrir as between a snake and wolf. On much archeology we see that he seems to be a hybrid of the two.. which makes sense considering in comparative mythology similar stories (specifically in Vedic lore) the place of the “wolf” is taken by a huge snake demon that devours the gods. Not to mention his brother is a snake ofc.
This is great. I’m definitely going to journal on this idea. I really connected with your friends understanding and veneration of Fenrir as a champion against injustice.
Very interesting.
For me, Fenrir is the same a Vidarr; a force of reckoning. Fenrir gets his revenge on Odin because he's the orchestrator of his binding, but right after is killed by the Aesir aspect of vengeance, Vidarr. I thought this was a tale of "vengeance brings vengeance" or "only the gods we venerate are capable of doing this".
It's worth mentioning that the chain they used for finally being able to chain Fenrir was named "Gleipner". It was forged by the dwarves and the materials were these:
The sound of a cat's footfall
The beard of a woman
The roots of a mountain
The sinews of a bear
The breath of a fish
The spittle of a bird
The chain was impossible for even Fenrir to break, because the chain was mostly forged by materials that doesn't exist and you can't break something that doesn't exist.
However this just goes to show how skilled the craftsmanship of the dwarves were.
"I will bite off the hand-of-trickery that feeds me!"
My take away from the binding myth is the importance of keeping your word, especially with threats/ultimatums. Fenrir told the Gods if they tricked him, he would bite Tyrs hand off. They swore it wasnt a trick, even Tyr, the one Fenrir trusted, was willing to take the risk. The second he realized he had been betrayed....he did EXACTLY what he said he would do.
I do not know anymore where I heard it from (I wanna say, Dr. Jackson Crawford, but I am not sure anymore):
The thing about Fenrir's name is that it is not HIS name (at least orignally). As many of the gods do, Loki has/had many names and titles. An really ancient one was Fenrir "The cave dweller". With this the big bad wolf became "Fenrir's Wolf" and Lokis children "Fenrir's Brood".
But with the ages Loki lost the name Fenrir in the tales and sagas and it stuck with the wolf.
So he became the "new" Fenrir, but oddly his byname "Fenrir's Wolf" was also still used.
Fun Fact: The word "Jormungadr" means "giant Beast" and is also not his true name (as such a thing can even exist for such an ancient god).
I would be really grateful if somebody knows the video both of these facts are from. And I hope I am not spreading fake news with any of this.
Great video Ocean and amazing explanation of Wolf you both are always bringing in banger videos. My views on beings like Jormungandr, Fenrir, Hel and other chaotic spirits and deities are more towards a view of them being a necessary force for the universe. For example I few Jormungandr as a form of the Ouroboros, he could represent the circle of life, death and rebirth and a sort of disorder in an orderly world much like Fenrir can be seen like Ocean has stated with his views of the great wolf, beings with much more nuance to them than simply being evil forces but maybe a sort of chaotic neutral or necessary chaos when the balance of the world is thrown off of that balance, videos like this open peoples minds up to interesting topics of discussion.
An excellent video, I have had Fenrir in my praxis for 15 years now. You've done a great job, well read and great execution of the video.
Great video as always Ocean
I've been waiting on this for so long!!!
I'm trying to write a book and NEEDED some Ocean explaining on Fenrir!!!
I personally find Fenrir rather interesting, and somewhat relate to him in terms of surviving abuse and trauma. I know a lot of that is my own UPG, but I personally feel this odd connection to him in that sense, mostly due to how and why he was chained.
Fenrir deserves all the headpets ever
Fenrir is that inner rage that you feel when people mock you unfarily, when someone steal your place, when you lose trust in a longtime friend, the rage of feeling behind but desire success, is when you have restrict parents until you become overaged and need to let go..
Great video! I’d also REALLY like to see your opinion on praxis with Loki as well!!
The role of shapeshifting gives me paws
You could also look at the passage in Hávamál talking about "a man who broke his word or his oaths woukd have his sword turn against him." Týr made the ultimate sacrifice as being a God associated with right, law, and Honor. He knew to serve the greater good, he had to suffer the afront to his own Honor by tricking Fenrir and breaking his word. Hence, he paid the price in "losing his sword hand."
Another message here is that if you insist on feeding dangers, you're going to lose parts.
What if the praxis is in the mythos? Be like Tyr, calm the beast, earn his trust. There are so many times when we might need to calm the beast!
Doing a paper about ragnarok for my writing class, so this came out at the perfect time. Great video man.
I think the esoteric example here is that we must work with our chaos to keep it in control thus channeling it but it's still chaos and through chaos and the change that it brings, it evolves us and makes us better.
When I was younger I used to tell people when they asked me what my spirituality was or religious beliefs were I would tell them I was a focused because I thought it meant that you believed in focusing as in like Faith fairies and the like and people who came angry at me I wouldn't understand why thanks to your channel I learned what it was and I no longer use unable to describe herself.
I feel like Fenrir’s binding is inspired by someone who had to put down an overly aggressive dog that still loved them. We had to put down three Great Pyrenees/Hound hybrids (one named Thor) who were the sweetest, kindest, most loving dogs to us, but repeatedly murdered any animal that came onto our property and then neatly killed one of our beagles.
They were the best songs ever, or would’ve been had they lived in the city and never encountered the things that prompted their violence (usually an animal running away) but because they did my mom eventually had to put them down and though it killed me at the time, as a adult I understand.
So many lessons in the Fenrir story.
Much like the Baldur story and Achilles in Greek tradition, no matter how much you try to protect yourself from danger, you can't control it all. Nature's laws win in the end.
A lesson from Fenrir's point of view: Even those you trust may be pressured to work against you, even if they don't agree with the plan wholeheartedly. He let himself down by seeing an obvious ruse and going along with it nonetheless. Perhaps he knew what was going to happen and knew it had to be done in order to let the cycle play out. In a way, he was the most honorable by sacrificing his freedom and suffering pain and humiliation for "the greater good". Maybe the hand was part of keeping a little victory by ensuring there was still a price to pay for his generosity. Maybe he knew the whole plan and involved Tyr to help Tyr deal with his betrayal by having him pay a price so he could live with himself after being essentially forced to partake in the binding.
Tyr's point of view: The heartache of going against his very nature amidst pressure to serve "the greater good", also resulting in paying a hefty price. His sacrifice was much heavier than we think at first glance. Others saw his act as heroic. He most likely felt shame, sadness and humiliation for using trickery (not in his true nature). His honor rose among the other Aesir and Vanir, but it was shattered internally and he had to live with that and probably suffered a variation of "imposter syndrome". He is missing from later big events. Perhaps there is a missing story about him freeing Fenrir to redeem his honor. Who really knows for sure?
Fenir was born with a job to do. He was never sneaky or indirect about it. The gods were the ones who used trickery and guile. Who is the most valiant and honorable personality in this story really?
Nature' laws are not as chaotic as we think. There are cycles and they can be harsh and downright brutal, but never dishonest.
"Civilization" is the thing with the dishonesty and treachery. And in the end, nature get its victory and anothet cycle begins.
I was worried about how Fenrir would be portrayed in this video but I’m so glad to see that He wasn’t painted as an evil figure!
I work with Loki and His children. With their reputations in certain parts of the community, I feel the need to be protective of Them in the same way that They are protective of me.
The story of Fenrir has always reminded me of the parable "The child who is not embraced by the village will burn it down to feel its warmth". How different would the story have been if all the Aesir had the courage of Tyr and developed a relationship with Fenrir instead of demonizing him and making a self fulfilling prophecy.
I’ve always thought it was interesting, that I never saw any mention of how Fenrir was loosed. As you mention, there is no continuation of the story of Tyr. Perhaps Tyr, justice, released Fenrir so that he could avenge the wrongs and bring a cleansing.
Love your channel.
I am creating a fantasy background, with a specific set of deities worshipped by all kinds of folks but through different lenses. This idea of Fenrir essentially makes him something of a blend of Kali and Dionysis imho, which absolutely makes sense to me.
Getting into animal rights has drawn me to look into Fenrir along with my personal experiences with betrayal. Wolves are so hated and hunted for no reason in my country despite being low in population. He really just reminds me of injustice as a whole.