Thanks for all the interesting comments, keep them coming! Most involve adding extra graphics, windows or other external features but I don't think this is the problem. Again I refer to the Ombudsman report in the description, seems like it does not matter what you change/add they will still refuse most self built applications. The DVLA are still going against the recommendations made in this report. There is no mention in the rejection reply from DVLA that I do not have the required external 'features' on my campervan. The reason given is that 'Unfortunately, it is difficult to significantly change the external appearance of vehicles such as your vehicle, that were originally constructed as a panel van.' So they are saying the original BASE vehicle (Fiat Ducato) or any other 'panel van' cannot be changed to a 'motor caravan'. This would be fair enough if it was stated in their 'requirements' and the fact that they allow 'professional' builders to use the EXACT same BASE vehicle (which look not dissimilar after conversion to my 'self built' van) to be changed to body type 'motor caravan'. This smacks of double standards! Type Approval Regulations 1979 reg.2 this states:- "motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users; No mention of windows/graphics/awning bar I found an interesting post nohma.com/van-life/reclassifying-your-campervan-dvla/ A freedom of information request to DVLA revealed some interesting facts concerning the number of unsuccessful applications from Aug 2019 to Dec 2020. Total number of applications 14,942 Applications accepted 806 Applications rejected 14,136 That is about a 5% success rate! This only goes to prove the common belief that the DVLA are routinely rejected the majority of applications, I want to know why? I have made my own FOI to get more recent information, watch this space!
Just before the election was called Mark Harper (out going Minister) started a review of how DVLA deals with such issues, obviously not going to happen now.
Hi, I've just come across your videos they are very informative thank you. However, what has contacting your MP got to do with your campervan or is it a delay tactic by the DVLA? I would be very interested to know why.
I feel that you are ignoring the requirement for two windows on at least one side of the van which clearly states that it doesn’t include the driver or passenger door window as stated on the tick box. check list doesn’t seem optional to me.Most people install a smaller window above the bed. More graphics required if you want it to be a motor caravan then you shouldn’t worry that it looks like one.
Vans with two windows on at least one side of the vehicle have also been rejected see th-cam.com/video/ArPWFPTiZ5c/w-d-xo.html as an example. Two windows on one side only also makes their requirement of what a 'vehicle looks like in traffic' a nonsense, one side would look like a camper but the other side (without windows) would just look like a panel van! Also the DVLA state 'The body type may still be changed despite the vehicle NOT HAVING ALL THE MODIFICATIONS listed online.' The requirements also do not state how many or what size graphics are required. If my van was rejected for either of these reasons they should tell me so I can make the changes. The only reason given was that my van is a panel van, which is hypocritical as they accept 'professionally' built vans of the exact same type and model! So even if I spend £££'s on extra windows/graphics or place an illuminated sign on top saying 'I am a campervan' they are still likely to reject, this has happened to other van builders previously, read the Ombudsman's report. The point is the DVLA are going against the Ombudsman report that said the DVLA needs to provide more clarity.
Just one small comment. I belive their wording on the number of windows is open to a different interpretation to yours. I suggest it may mean you need two windows on one side of the van only. As you have mentioned the Wildax Solaris, if you go to their website and look at the new Solaris it has a large and a small window on the passenger side of the vehicle. I also concur with the other poster regardind additional vents and graphics. Not knowing how much the DVLA re-register costs, i wonder if there is any value in sticking some vents and a false window on the outside, adding a bunch of graphics, taking a few photos and then resubmitting the change from the DVLA. If you get the right result you could just remove them. It also wouldn't hurt to email the DVLA to request a copy of their response to the Ombudsman's outcome.
The wording on the the numbers of windows is ambiguous but if as you say had two windows only on one side of the van, this would go against their 'what the vehicle looks like in traffic' rule... One side would look like a campervan, the other side would look like a panel van! Vents are not a requirement, ice-cream vans also have vents but this doesn't make them campervans. Graphics, again there is no specification as to size or quantity and is open to interpretation. If you read the article from the Ombudsman www.ombudsman.org.uk/news-and-blog/news/dvlas-poor-communication-causes-confusion-campervan-owners you can see that no matter how much you spend on graphics or other changes the DVLA will still reject the changes. The biggest problem is they just reject applications and then refuse to say what you need to do to get it accepted... Catch 22! I have made a FOI request to the DVLA asking what the percentage of DIY builds that get refused is.
I'm not worried about re registering my van as a campervan, I've found no difference in insurance quotes between a home built van and a home built campervan. There is the question over speed limits, Within the Road Traffic Act The Motor Vehicles (Type Approval) (Great Britain) Regulations 1979 for the definition of a motorcaravan. This reads; a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users. Essentially the Road Traffic Act is a law, the DVLA is a classification and the law trumps a classification (this is an abridged version of a really interesting article by Jerba Campervans blog titled Campervan, Van With Windows & Motorcaravan Speed Limits (2020/2021 Update) Now the cherry on Jerba's cake is they include details of a legal test case between a member of the public and Deveon & Cornwall Police. So as far as I'm concerned, the question of DIY camper conversion speed limits has been addressed by a judge, and I confidently drive up to the stated speed limits. Now as a side issue I'm currently working on an ex BT ducato the same as yours, and it has an uprated suspension, I seem to get a lot of bangs from the rear if i go over bumpy roads, and I wonder if it's just because there is no load to speak of on the suspension as I haven't built this one yet. It passed MOT with no mention of any suspension issues. at first I thiught it was the rear doors, so I replaced all the seals, and the doors feel rock solid. Happy to hear any thoughts you or anyone else has. (I'm not a mechanic)
Yes I know about that legislation (video coming soon also the REAL reason why DVLA are reluctant to reclassify) but the problem is ANPR will just read your reg number and issue a NIP based on records held by DVLA, this has happened, you then have to PROVE that your van is a leisure vehicle to avoid the fine, wasting not only your time but that of the authorities. Would be much simpler if DVLA just gave you the correct classification in the first place. I did have some banging but it was from the rear doors, the stops just needed some adjustment. I would say the MOT should have shown any major issues with suspension.
not to put a damper on your statement about taxation class I did a home build pre 2019 and had no issues at all but noted even after change to motor caravan it still maintains N1 taxation class hence speed restriction still applies. I did not have any graphics on vehicle but did have 2 windows on passenger side and one on drivers side most! of the so called professional conversions do have 2 windows on passenger side I seem to recall when these rules came in convertors were up in arms about outside appearence but awning rail is still an extra when buying from new.
Hi, pre 2019 (before the new 'rules' came in) you were much more likely to have your application accepted. Taxation class does not change but speed restrictions do. Speed limits are set out in the 1984 Road Traffic Regulations Act, A Motor Caravan, under 3050kg UNLADEN has the same speed restrictions as a motor car. Also it's the law NOT the DVLA that states what a motor caravan is 'Type Approval Regulations 1979 reg.2' states that:- "motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users; No mention of windows, graphics or awning bars!
Despite the commercially built vehicle having only one window per side, the instruction could be interpreted that you need two windows on one or both sides.
Yes, the wording is ambiguous. Also windows/graphics/awning rail are not even required by law to qualify a vehicle as a 'motor caravan' see Type Approval Regulations 1979 reg.2, no mention of any of these.
It's about time the DVLA are challenged on this as you say if the public can clearly see its a campervan that means that the police are so incomplete that they can't tell its a campervan then maybe they shouldn't be in the job.
Ian, Sorry to hear about the hassle you're having with the DVLA. I did wonder why you hadn't done any more videos on the van. Tactically it might be useful to demonstrate to the Ombudsman that you have taken the DVLA's responses seriously and consider how better to meet their guidance on the V1006 (?) form. Although the DVLA's responses are vague I do expect it hinges on the external appearance rather than any of the internal facilities and equipment. Specifically, I wonder whether more explicit camper van "looks" might be useful. The image you posted up of the commerically converted Fiat Ducato did have a few other things externally that made it look more like a camper van. There were larger graphics, fancy wheel trims and a few grilles (presumably for ventilation). The cost of some larger graphics would be minimal, as would wheel trims and the grilles could simply be stuck on to mirror the image of the other Ducato. You could even offer this to the DVLA as a second application as they stated they would consider any further information / changes. I realise you're probably sick to your back teeth with them but sometimes swallowing your pride can work. It would also help the Ombudsman agree with your original stance and the fact you listened to DLVA's advice. Good luck. Andy.
Yes, fair points but I really think that it's just DVLA policy to reject DIY campervan builds, there are just too many 'rejections', the forums are full of people with this problem. My van has a roof light, water drain taps and a side step these are campervan features not commercial van features. My van obviously 'looks' like a campervan because random people approach me in supermarket carparks etc and ask 'can I look round your campervan?' , are the DVLA saying the police are stupid as they don't know what a camper looks like? The point is that the Ombudsman has already said the DVLA needs to change their stance and it's obvious they are just ignoring them. In fact according to DVLA's reply to me you don't even need to meet ALL the requirements 'The body type may still be changed despite the vehicle NOT HAVING ALL THE MODIFICATIONS listed online.' Also it is in the emergency services best interest to have campervans etc listed as 'motor caravans' as they do tend to carry gas, this is a safety issue which is surely much more important than visual appearance!
@@InTheShedUK I agree the DVLA are being ridiculous and in an ideal world you shouldn't have to go through all this. I was just offering some opinions to win the "war" at the expense of a lost "battle". Hope you get it sorted.
If you had an extra window on one side and better Grafix you might get it changed. I agree that Police use ANPR but what if it’s been stollen with fake plates on it. Your van just looks like a builders van from behind and the side as it may just be a crew cab van. I have a converted van and know a few people who have had theirs changed. You need to make it look more leisure camper than a builder van.
Crew cab vans don't have caravan style bubble windows they have flat bonded windows. Regardless of that, the point is what it looks like externally is not important, it's the 'use' that counts. The body type regulations (the law) doesn't even mention windows or graphics as a requirement, the DVLA have made their own rules up and are going against these regulations.
Mine is a Vintage Ambulance, I DO NOT want awning bars nor stupid fern and compass crap vinyl graphics on the side of the ambulance . I want to retain its original features (minus blue lights) what the hell difference does it make what I have in it and how its fixed (except gas bottles , ) which is fair enough. I might NOT want a permenant bed, I might like a hammock ! ! ! . They are going beyond their remit on vinyl graphics , logos and designs of the externals . Total overreach IMO . Not like you are asking them to register it as a motorcycle !
Absolutely! All these 'requirements' and 'what it looks like in traffic to the police' is total DVLA BS, for some obscure reason they don't want to have self built vans have body type 'motor caravan' and are putting every obstacle they can think of in our way. Put the blue lights back on, you can totally ignore speed limits then!
@@InTheShedUK It`s the same BS for EV conversions, DVLA say...Not allowed to add new mounts by welding or bolted on..... Have to use only original engine/gearbox mounts any extra mounts can only rest on existing bodywork(already seen an EV with a 150+kg battery just resting/unsecured on the chassis leg DLVA says it legal new mounts are not) is a modification thus loss of registration aka a Q plate due the age of the car etc is deemed/classed as unknown, Use of original nut`s & bolts eg original number of 13 mm bolts holding over the original engine/gearbox weight changing to a bigger MM is a modification thus loss of registration aka a Q plate due the age of the car etc is deemed/classed as unknown, No extra holes to secure high voltage wires ether externally or low voltage wire going though news holes internally is a modification thus loss of registration aka a Q plate due the age of the car etc is deemed/classed as unknown, Just some of the things I've seen... DLVA will getting some wrongful injury/death law suits soon if they carry on...
![[MV] A leap of faith...ความเชื่อใจครั้งสุดท้าย (From "Petrichor the series")](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/U1piZH2CNXA/mqdefault.jpg)
Thanks for all the interesting comments, keep them coming!
Most involve adding extra graphics, windows or other external features but I don't think this is the problem.
Again I refer to the Ombudsman report in the description, seems like it does not matter what you change/add they will still refuse most self built applications. The DVLA are still going against the recommendations made in this report.
There is no mention in the rejection reply from DVLA that I do not have the required external 'features' on my campervan.
The reason given is that 'Unfortunately, it is difficult to significantly change the external appearance of vehicles such as your vehicle, that were originally constructed as a panel van.'
So they are saying the original BASE vehicle (Fiat Ducato) or any other 'panel van' cannot be changed to a 'motor caravan'.
This would be fair enough if it was stated in their 'requirements' and the fact that they allow 'professional' builders to use the EXACT same BASE vehicle (which look not dissimilar after conversion to my 'self built' van) to be changed to body type 'motor caravan'.
This smacks of double standards!
Type Approval Regulations 1979 reg.2 this states:-
"motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users;
No mention of windows/graphics/awning bar
I found an interesting post nohma.com/van-life/reclassifying-your-campervan-dvla/
A freedom of information request to DVLA revealed some interesting facts concerning the number of unsuccessful applications from Aug 2019 to Dec 2020.
Total number of applications 14,942
Applications accepted 806
Applications rejected 14,136
That is about a 5% success rate!
This only goes to prove the common belief that the DVLA are routinely rejected the majority of applications, I want to know why?
I have made my own FOI to get more recent information, watch this space!
Just before the election was called Mark Harper (out going Minister) started a review of how DVLA deals with such issues, obviously not going to happen now.
Always a trying time, dealing with that department.
this is all about making it mre harder for people to live outside the system.
I just ignore them. My van is a stealth build and registering it as a campervan defeats the object.
Hi, I've just come across your videos they are very informative thank you. However, what has contacting your MP got to do with your campervan or is it a delay tactic by the DVLA? I would be very interested to know why.
Your van needs 2 windows on at least one side not including the drivers or passengers door windows.
Yep, that was my interpretation as well.
Self build vans that have 2 windows on one side also get rejected! See th-cam.com/video/ArPWFPTiZ5c/w-d-xo.html
I feel that you are ignoring the requirement for two windows on at least one side of the van which clearly states that it doesn’t include the driver or passenger door window as stated on the tick box. check list doesn’t seem optional to me.Most people install a smaller window above the bed. More graphics required if you want it to be a motor caravan then you shouldn’t worry that it looks like one.
Vans with two windows on at least one side of the vehicle have also been rejected see th-cam.com/video/ArPWFPTiZ5c/w-d-xo.html as an example. Two windows on one side only also makes their requirement of what a 'vehicle looks like in traffic' a nonsense, one side would look like a camper but the other side (without windows) would just look like a panel van! Also the DVLA state 'The body type may still be changed despite the vehicle NOT HAVING ALL THE MODIFICATIONS listed online.'
The requirements also do not state how many or what size graphics are required.
If my van was rejected for either of these reasons they should tell me so I can make the changes. The only reason given was that my van is a panel van, which is hypocritical as they accept 'professionally' built vans of the exact same type and model! So even if I spend £££'s on extra windows/graphics or place an illuminated sign on top saying 'I am a campervan' they are still likely to reject, this has happened to other van builders previously, read the Ombudsman's report.
The point is the DVLA are going against the Ombudsman report that said the DVLA needs to provide more clarity.
Typical UK BS
Just one small comment. I belive their wording on the number of windows is open to a different interpretation to yours. I suggest it may mean you need two windows on one side of the van only. As you have mentioned the Wildax Solaris, if you go to their website and look at the new Solaris it has a large and a small window on the passenger side of the vehicle. I also concur with the other poster regardind additional vents and graphics. Not knowing how much the DVLA re-register costs, i wonder if there is any value in sticking some vents and a false window on the outside, adding a bunch of graphics, taking a few photos and then resubmitting the change from the DVLA. If you get the right result you could just remove them. It also wouldn't hurt to email the DVLA to request a copy of their response to the Ombudsman's outcome.
The wording on the the numbers of windows is ambiguous but if as you say had two windows only on one side of the van, this would go against their 'what the vehicle looks like in traffic' rule... One side would look like a campervan, the other side would look like a panel van!
Vents are not a requirement, ice-cream vans also have vents but this doesn't make them campervans.
Graphics, again there is no specification as to size or quantity and is open to interpretation.
If you read the article from the Ombudsman www.ombudsman.org.uk/news-and-blog/news/dvlas-poor-communication-causes-confusion-campervan-owners you can see that no matter how much you spend on graphics or other changes the DVLA will still reject the changes. The biggest problem is they just reject applications and then refuse to say what you need to do to get it accepted... Catch 22!
I have made a FOI request to the DVLA asking what the percentage of DIY builds that get refused is.
I'm not worried about re registering my van as a campervan, I've found no difference in insurance quotes between a home built van and a home built campervan. There is the question over speed limits, Within the Road Traffic Act The Motor Vehicles (Type Approval) (Great Britain) Regulations 1979 for the definition of a motorcaravan. This reads; a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users. Essentially the Road Traffic Act is a law, the DVLA is a classification and the law trumps a classification (this is an abridged version of a really interesting article by Jerba Campervans blog titled Campervan, Van With Windows & Motorcaravan Speed Limits (2020/2021 Update)
Now the cherry on Jerba's cake is they include details of a legal test case between a member of the public and Deveon & Cornwall Police.
So as far as I'm concerned, the question of DIY camper conversion speed limits has been addressed by a judge, and I confidently drive up to the stated speed limits.
Now as a side issue I'm currently working on an ex BT ducato the same as yours, and it has an uprated suspension, I seem to get a lot of bangs from the rear if i go over bumpy roads, and I wonder if it's just because there is no load to speak of on the suspension as I haven't built this one yet. It passed MOT with no mention of any suspension issues. at first I thiught it was the rear doors, so I replaced all the seals, and the doors feel rock solid. Happy to hear any thoughts you or anyone else has. (I'm not a mechanic)
Yes I know about that legislation (video coming soon also the REAL reason why DVLA are reluctant to reclassify) but the problem is ANPR will just read your reg number and issue a NIP based on records held by DVLA, this has happened, you then have to PROVE that your van is a leisure vehicle to avoid the fine, wasting not only your time but that of the authorities. Would be much simpler if DVLA just gave you the correct classification in the first place.
I did have some banging but it was from the rear doors, the stops just needed some adjustment.
I would say the MOT should have shown any major issues with suspension.
@@InTheShedUK thanks for that. No advisories on mot. I need to poke at it a bit more
not to put a damper on your statement about taxation class I did a home build pre 2019 and had no issues at all but noted even after change to motor caravan it still maintains N1 taxation class hence speed restriction still applies. I did not have any graphics on vehicle but did have 2 windows on passenger side and one on drivers side most! of the so called professional conversions do have 2 windows on passenger side I seem to recall when these rules came in convertors were up in arms about outside appearence but awning rail is still an extra when buying from new.
Hi, pre 2019 (before the new 'rules' came in) you were much more likely to have your application accepted.
Taxation class does not change but speed restrictions do.
Speed limits are set out in the 1984 Road Traffic Regulations Act,
A Motor Caravan, under 3050kg UNLADEN has the same speed restrictions as a motor car.
Also it's the law NOT the DVLA that states what a motor caravan is 'Type Approval Regulations 1979 reg.2' states that:- "motor caravan" means a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users;
No mention of windows, graphics or awning bars!
Despite the commercially built vehicle having only one window per side, the instruction could be interpreted that you need two windows on one or both sides.
Yes, the wording is ambiguous. Also windows/graphics/awning rail are not even required by law to qualify a vehicle as a 'motor caravan' see Type Approval Regulations 1979 reg.2, no mention of any of these.
It's about time the DVLA are challenged on this as you say if the public can clearly see its a campervan that means that the police are so incomplete that they can't tell its a campervan then maybe they shouldn't be in the job.
Incompetent
Ian,
Sorry to hear about the hassle you're having with the DVLA. I did wonder why you hadn't done any more videos on the van.
Tactically it might be useful to demonstrate to the Ombudsman that you have taken the DVLA's responses seriously and consider how better to meet their guidance on the V1006 (?) form.
Although the DVLA's responses are vague I do expect it hinges on the external appearance rather than any of the internal facilities and equipment. Specifically, I wonder whether more explicit camper van "looks" might be useful. The image you posted up of the commerically converted Fiat Ducato did have a few other things externally that made it look more like a camper van. There were larger graphics, fancy wheel trims and a few grilles (presumably for ventilation).
The cost of some larger graphics would be minimal, as would wheel trims and the grilles could simply be stuck on to mirror the image of the other Ducato. You could even offer this to the DVLA as a second application as they stated they would consider any further information / changes.
I realise you're probably sick to your back teeth with them but sometimes swallowing your pride can work. It would also help the Ombudsman agree with your original stance and the fact you listened to DLVA's advice.
Good luck.
Andy.
Yes, fair points but I really think that it's just DVLA policy to reject DIY campervan builds, there are just too many 'rejections', the forums are full of people with this problem. My van has a roof light, water drain taps and a side step these are campervan features not commercial van features. My van obviously 'looks' like a campervan because random people approach me in supermarket carparks etc and ask 'can I look round your campervan?' , are the DVLA saying the police are stupid as they don't know what a camper looks like? The point is that the Ombudsman has already said the DVLA needs to change their stance and it's obvious they are just ignoring them. In fact according to DVLA's reply to me you don't even need to meet ALL the requirements 'The body type may still be changed despite the vehicle NOT HAVING ALL THE MODIFICATIONS listed online.' Also it is in the emergency services best interest to have campervans etc listed as 'motor caravans' as they do tend to carry gas, this is a safety issue which is surely much more important than visual appearance!
@@InTheShedUK I agree the DVLA are being ridiculous and in an ideal world you shouldn't have to go through all this. I was just offering some opinions to win the "war" at the expense of a lost "battle".
Hope you get it sorted.
If you had an extra window on one side and better Grafix you might get it changed. I agree that Police use ANPR but what if it’s been stollen with fake plates on it. Your van just looks like a builders van from behind and the side as it may just be a crew cab van. I have a converted van and know a few people who have had theirs changed. You need to make it look more leisure camper than a builder van.
Crew cab vans don't have caravan style bubble windows they have flat bonded windows.
Regardless of that, the point is what it looks like externally is not important, it's the 'use' that counts. The body type regulations (the law) doesn't even mention windows or graphics as a requirement, the DVLA have made their own rules up and are going against these regulations.
Mine is a Vintage Ambulance, I DO NOT want awning bars nor stupid fern and compass crap vinyl graphics on the side of the ambulance .
I want to retain its original features (minus blue lights)
what the hell difference does it make what I have in it and how its fixed (except gas bottles , ) which is fair enough. I might NOT want a permenant bed, I might like a hammock ! ! ! . They are going beyond their remit on vinyl graphics , logos and designs of the externals .
Total overreach IMO .
Not like you are asking them to register it as a motorcycle !
Absolutely! All these 'requirements' and 'what it looks like in traffic to the police' is total DVLA BS, for some obscure reason they don't want to have self built vans have body type 'motor caravan' and are putting every obstacle they can think of in our way.
Put the blue lights back on, you can totally ignore speed limits then!
@@InTheShedUK It`s the same BS for EV conversions, DVLA say...Not allowed to add new mounts by welding or bolted on.....
Have to use only original engine/gearbox mounts any extra mounts can only rest on existing bodywork(already seen an EV with a 150+kg battery just resting/unsecured on the chassis leg DLVA says it legal new mounts are not) is a modification thus loss of registration aka a Q plate due the age of the car etc is deemed/classed as unknown,
Use of original nut`s & bolts eg original number of 13 mm bolts holding over the original engine/gearbox weight changing to a bigger MM is a modification thus loss of registration aka a Q plate due the age of the car etc is deemed/classed as unknown,
No extra holes to secure high voltage wires ether externally or low voltage wire going though news holes internally is a modification thus loss of registration aka a Q plate due the age of the car etc is deemed/classed as unknown,
Just some of the things I've seen...
DLVA will getting some wrongful injury/death law suits soon if they carry on...