Hey Ryan. Thanks for this video! My wife and I have been planning to sail pretty much for as long as we have been together. The past three years or so we have really been looking only into cats, and your data matches with what we have seen over this time. The price gap has been our major hurdle. With our life situations changing we have decided to look back into monohulls, just so that we can get onto the water faster. Comparing our budget with what is available for monos, strangely it is seeming more realistic for us to jump on a good newer, longer monohull. Again, thanks for the video. We love watching your adventure unfold.
I greatly appreciate your videos like this. It tremendously helps me scope out my budget and gives me other things to consider during my search! Thanks again!
Hi Jessica and Ryan I have been going through this exercise myself for quite a while, the shopping and research is an adventure all to itself. I finally decided on a 44 foot monohull, ex-charter located in Croatia, which I just purchased, and now here I sit in Split, after finally getting on board and taking her out for a sail today! Now the fun part begins, all the logistics required to bring her back home so I can live on it while working in the UAE. Registration is a bit of a sticky point here in the EU, so factor that in if you buy overseas and intend to sail it right away. Then comes transport, I will be shipping the boat as cargo I think due to safety concerns along the route back to Abu Dhabi. I will be following along with your adventures with great interest. Good luck and fair winds!
Hi Don, Very cool. Congrats on your purchase! Very exciting. So with regard to the registration, I'm curious what the sticky points were and what sort of lessons you learned. Maybe shoot us an email at jessicaandryanadventures@gmail.com if you get time.
Dude! I'm way analytical and suggested to my first boat broker I felt I needed to do all the data crunching you've done to find the sweet spot in the market....He laughed. Very well done. Now if I can only convince my first mate that a mono will do just fine, rather than the cat's she is focused on.
Great job! It would be interesting to show median figures instead of mean averages. That way outliers will tend to be stripped out leaving a more accurate representation of the typical boats you might find on the market.
Well done, Ryan - these are really clear and logical insights that confirm some widely held beliefs. It would be very interesting to compare costs when the variable of "beam" is included (not a request - unless have a beam field in your 22K + records), but I wouldn't be surprised to see the acquisition costs of cats versus monohulls close to equivalent by length when useable/liveable space is factored in (and beam may not be the best way to quantify that, but I'm not sure how else to do that). Excellent work - I really like what you've done here - thank you for sharing this.
Since you asked? I don't know if the data is available? It would be interesting to know the maintenance cost? trend line year-to-year for both or just catamarans only as I know you guys are leaning more to get a catamaran.
15:16 Just a guess: All boats need a significant refit after +/- 15 years. When owners has invested money in there boat, they want to recuperate that money somewhat. Those boats are also often the best equipped ones! Great video!
Very interesting thanks! I was wondering if you would make a step by step guide for the buying process ie with a focus on survey, insurance, sea-trial, and very important how to safely hand over your money to a distant owner etc.
I shopped for a couple of years before making my 1st large boat purchase. You have done an amazing job in highlighting the issues and key decision points. One particular item i would like to comment on. Its extremely interesting that you generalized that mid 90's boats hold their value more than boats produced in 2000. I strongly believe that the 1999 dot-com crash caused a widespread quality cheapening of even very quality boat names.I ended up with a 1996 pacific seacraft 34... by 1996 the boat was extremely debugged (example: 38 hp yanmar rather than 27hp westerbeake (sp), the hull construction process was refined to minimize blistering, lots of owner comments just improved the boat to near as good as possible (for the type of boat being built) etc.... After the 1999 dot-com crash... pacific seacraft pushed less expensive boats such as the 31 just to try and find a boat people could afford to buy new. The 2008 financial market crashed finished the job... virtually no more new top quality boat being built. The less expensive boats such as Benneteau (decent) became the top dog of the new monohull market. Also... cats increased supply and demand in the mid 90s have given monohulls tuff competition for potential new boat purchasers in general. As i live on my boat 50+ % of the time and frequently meet other cruisers... it seems the mid-90s boats are often purchased over newer or older with similar reasons provided. My question for these mid-90s boats now is... with zero new supply of these boats... will the demand and price increase over time ? Or... has the demand for sailboats dropped in general, more than enough to offset this slowly dwindling supply ? Again, great work. Thanks
This was a great analysis! We're selling our monohull and upgrading to a cat in the next 18 months. Love following your adventures and savings plans! Keep up the great work.
Ryan has figured out that when you buy a catamaran you are buying two hulls, two engines, two rudders, two lots of living areas, two heads and they cost twice as much. they are also very popular because of the extra room and perceived stability
walk-out sterns were introduced between 1990-92. You will find a very pronounced price jump on (for example) a Catalina 36 from 1989 to 1990. All the volume builders switched to walk out sterns at that time. Many consider any boat without a walkout stern "dated". Like buying a house with a one-car garage or a carport.
Great video! It would be nice if you can post the regression formula of the line on the last graph with the r squared and t-stat values. The regression coefficient would be the yearly depreciation and the r squared and t stat would be how accurate the regression is. Also, doing a log scale on the y axis works well for displaying price data over time.
Great research. That last graph almost seems to imply that the catamarans lose value on average around $10K per year as you follow the trendline to the left. So it loosely gives me a timeline on how many ears to wait to buy my dream cat ;)
Hey guys. Hope this is useful for those of you looking to buy a boat. If any of you have any further insights explaining what the data is showing we'd love to hear it! Also, we'd like to know which chart(s) did you personally find most useful?
I believe that post 1995 you are starting to see the introduction of more and more cored hulls... Earlier hulls were made from solid glass, and I think there is a perception that solid glass hulls will last longer than cored hulls, and therefore they will remain seaworthy for a longer period. I think we will see another staggering of the price, when people start to understand how, that after the release of ISO 12215-5 new cored yachts are being designed with very thin skins indeed. I believe the effect these thin skins will have on the longevity of modern yachts will be dramatic, and in time this will be reflected in second hand market.
+Tim Hunt More like post-1975. And some builders build better cored hulls than others, at different periods. I.e. I wouldn't touch a 1995 Hunter with a 10' pole, but a 1985 would still be very serviceable unless really abused by it's PO.
I actually went looking for a good source for cored decks. There aren't that many good places. Some people volunteer information about their own boats and the decks, but not a good solid listing of years. You can add me to the list of those that want a solid glass hull even with the negatives. There really needs to be a good source for stuff like this... I vote Ryan brilliant enough to figure it out.
Tim Hunt - Wow! That is an interesting comment. It would be interesting to see a comparison of thickness of hulls over the years of various mfrs. as well as the number of boats made that are still in the water over the years. I bet all the newbies who don't know how to sail who are just looking at size and price might change their priorities if they realize that although they spent a small fortune for their newer boat, the hull turns out to be flimsy and cheaply made. It would also be interesting to compare hull thickness of the average cat versus monohull.
This is all great stuff. I am a few years away from selling everything and moving on a boat myself. What I am really wondering is what the impact of this years hurricanes and the destruction of so many boats that would have been coming up for sail in the next few years will mean to the boat market. Supply and demand is going to be out of whack for several years because of Harvey, Irma and Jose if not others. It would be very interesting to do this again in a few months to see if the market has changed as a result of the reduction of available boats. I am sure some of the boats currently listed do not exist anymore.
I liked your approach, but did it slightly differently on our side. I too put together a spreadsheet, but instead focused on certain boats, and gathered the data for each as they were added. We're in the monohull market (currently under contract for a boat in Europe), and we were looking for a bluewater-specific model. Of course, the next question became, how do you tell if it's designed for that type of sailing, or whether it's just a production boat where the manufacturer claims it's "A" Ocean rated? My spreadsheet has about 125 boats in it ranging from about 42' min to 57' max. Boats over 50' haven't really been on our short list, but the boat we finally chose was 48', so not so far off. For each, I calculated B/D, D/L, Motion Comfort (MC), Calculated Hull Speed (HS), and Capsize Screening Value (CSV). Some of these values are simplistic and not to be relied upon too much (HS and CSV specifically), but when you compare across over a hundred boats trends start to appear. The biggest is that there is a huge difference between lightweight modern production boats and bluewater specific brands such as Hylas, Passport, Tayana, Oyster, Hallberg Rassy, Swan, Discovery, Contest, etc. As one might suspect, finding one of the latter at a reasonable price and age becomes quite the task. We were able to find none that we liked and could afford on this side of the pond. But the strength of the US dollar abroad has helped some. We have videos of the boats we've traveled to see on our Sailing at 9000 TH-cam channel.
@ sailing at 9000, I am interested if you would be willing to share the spreadsheet you made as well? Looking for boats in the 40-50 foot range but you brought up some really interesting points about the specifics that you calculated that I had not even considered. I'd be curious to see what boats you came across and how they stacked up to others in the same range. Thanks, fair winds.
Sailing at 9000 I'd be interested in your research. looking for a 38-43 boat to do both crusing and occasional blue water. affordability currently driving me to production boats but your research may help. thanks again!
Perhaps a useful additional analysis would be internal sq Ft comparison. A shorter cat can have more living space than a longer monohull. Also pound load capacity comparison; price of either type vs how much weight they can carry.
Could the answer to your question be the recession and less production of the 90's vs. the immediate big production of the 00's that you desccribe at 4:31
Great summary! Very useful. It's too bad there is not data available on actual sale price vs list price. I'm curious how you gathered your data. Did you manually grab it from all the different online sailboat listings or did you write some type of bot to gather the data? P.S. Someone else ask about geographic differences. It seems like similar size boats are much less in the Turkey/Greece/Mediterranean region. Did you look at that?
I loved this video!! At the beginning in the video you briefly showed the spreadsheet you used. One of the columns was countries. Did you have enough data to make a graph of the number of mono vs cats for sale per country? I'm just curious where the boats migrate to after they are made.
1997 recession? Also plenty of great mono hull boats from 70's and 80's available and modern interior volume emphasizing design not really taken off until late 2000's so an excess of supply of second hand boats and limited attraction of new builds. Maybe. Excellent video.
Yes, this was great data and made me totally geek out. Thanks. Early 2000's is the dot com bust and I wonder if that might have caused some of those boats to not be as well maintained as the ones from the 1990's, causing their asking prices to be lower.
Great video. Like you I am drawn to the data. While I like the idea of comparing square footage of Mono's vs Cats, the issue is how the space is used. It would be interesting to do a study of cruisers and see what correlation they would make about how big the boat FEELs. A 40' cat feels like a 54' mono. A 44' feels like a 65' mono.... and then compare that to the cost difference. Very unscientific but closer comparison in some regards. One other thing I have been curious about as we consider a cat is what folks are seeing for marina cost. We would not plan to be in a marina too often, but it would be good to know does it cost twice as much to moor a cat because the huge beam? Same with storage cost on the hard? Anyways, thanks for the great videos. Trey
It's answered at about 17:10. He screen-scrapes data from Yachtworld.com. He doesn't say the latter at that point in the video, but I believe he either said it at another point or in another video.
It would be interesting to know the price per foot, preferably based on the actual sales price. You could then understand the premium or discount you would pay for having a larger or smaller boat, and differences between brands.
Good idea! I think that would be useful. I wish it was easy to get the square footage of a boat both inside and out to get price per sq ft. But those numbers are near impossible to get. But price per foot in length is a start.
I didn't try to deduplicate on this dataset. I was worried about removing more false positives than true positives. And I already spent more time on it than I'd intended. But Its a fair point, I'm just betting on the size of the data diminishing the impact of the duplicate listings.
Nice work Ryan, you are getting to this like no other I have seen. Just remember some cat/ yachts have less or more equipment then others which you know any way.
Yeah, the equipment is probably one of the biggest & least talked about things. That's one of the downsides about purchasing an ex-charter boat. It's gonna have the minimum amount of equipment on it as is necessary. That's part of why they're so much cheaper.
Jessica and Ryan Adventures On the flip side, if you're going to add your own equipment it's better to buy a boat with only basic equipment. Many boats listed with full electronics suits are from the late 90s and even if it's working, it's now badly out dated and going to get replaced anyways, especially with the advent of solar dependant electronics, broadband radar, DSC, etc.
Deals can be had on newly refit boats equipmentwise. Many refit boats are sold soon after refit for family or health issues. Mostly the wife hates sailing and left the boat issues which is a common thing. Wilfreds mention of electronics is spot on tho. Instuments packages are trending away from the 10k MFD to I pads via nmea 2000 instuments ultrasonic wind/temp masthead instruments and cheaper less power hungry radar. But a sailboat with an good SSB and pactor modem and VHF and AIS transponder is better than one without
ParrotSailor Shoot I wasn't even thinking of the iPad/Garmin glasses angle: good point as that means even the newer suits are likely outdated. But you're right about many other technologies not changing hardly at all. I knew this was a complicated subject before watching this video, but I fear this video also serves to highlight how stupidly complex the pricing question actually is!
My experience and recent reasearch on buying another new to me vessel soon shows that 19XX production boat with length of 3x/4X is more or less fixed at a sellable price and the equipment is more or less free.What is most overlooked in the buying process is engine hours and sail/rigging condition which is more important than electronics which may or may not work or be useful for you intended use. Also time period is a factor. If my big trip doesnt start for 2 years then the 4 year old radar which the PO spent 6k on and which you dont need will be well pat it when you leave. Generators on 40 something boat are often poorly maintained as they are showhorned in and with solar/hydro a much better deal than ever now do u even want it? Wouldnt u rather just have a Honda 2000 like the rest of us?That said a fully loaded boat will sell faster and provide much more value
Ryan, I see your MBA working on this analysis. As you were working through your analysis to help you understand the market, I was asking myself how to compare a cat to a monohull. If we take out the different sailing characteristics, and just assume that you are going to get a cat, then a comparison to a monohull is not important. But, in understanding the market as a whole, I propose that there is a factor that even the big sites and no one else use that really is what you are looking for. That is, what is the usable square meters of space(or usable square feet of usable) on a, for example, a 38 foot lipari vs a 43 foot mono Beneteau? It is similar to buying a house and comparing the cost per square foot. Just because a cat is 42 feet, we know that some brands are real beamy and the hulls rounded and others have a straight hull shape which takes from the total space but has sailing advantages. Have you considered this? What used cat offers the most space per foot? (this is apart from smart layout which is obviously a factor that you mentioned in your video comparing new vs used cats).
I'm a numbers&stats guy as well as sailor too so I appreciate the work you put into illustrating this subject. I'm a little more interested in the median lengths and costs instead of averages. is there any chance you could make the raw spreadsheet available for us to play with the numbers as well? perhaps read-only googlesheet tha we could copy? thanks again.
sure thing. well.. i can share a link to the google sheet. you should be able to download that and use it in excel: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lfsujVQ3DyMhPcjH6_QFHcESo4nYxKEt9yI8b-3cK0Q/edit?usp=sharing
This data set is the most legit I have ever seen on the boat market. I've been slowly working on my own, using my more limited requirements, but hand curating it to eliminate anything I wouldn't actually consider buying, which is not nearly as generally useful as this. The inclusion of the locations allows some really good analysis of local markets. I've heard many times that a boat in the Mediterranean is half the cost of one in the States, and I've seen enough listings to support that idea, but this data set can prove if it is true or not. Great job!
Wow. Thanks for sharing! Great video. I'm not catching the distinction anywhere. Is the "price" you have in the dataset the asking price, selling price, or something different?
Great information; I do appreciate your deep dives into data. As a non-data person, it has been very helpful, thank you. Love the t-shirts too; what is the Etsy store name?
Hi, thanks! We named the shop HonuBrand. It seemed too weird to call the shop JessicaAndRyanAdventures. And our logo is the turtle which is "honu" in hawaiian. Also, there's a link to the shop in the description of this video. :)
My question is, after having studied this data, are you still thinking cat or considering a mono for your own purchase (due to better cost/ft and availability)?
We're still intending to get a cat. But we know its going to cost more and be harder to find. That's sorta what's prompted us to do the extra research to we can have a better chance of making it happen. That being said, we also know our monohull fallback plan if we can't get a loan or something. We like to know all our options.
Awesome, we are in the planning process as well. We'd prefer a cat but def want something big enough for passages. Thanks for the research, very helpful.
Firstly thank you for the great data!!! I'm interested in the same budget range, around 200k sterling £, and would want to have a 40ft plus cat. So, the research I'm doing right now is second hand owners version of every brand of cat, not easy in the UK where cats aren't very popular. Can't wait to see what you end up getting, and why!!! Cheers
wold be nice to have access to your data like sharing google drive or dropbox. There are some boats I would like to look at by make and model. Also, would love to see how you did what you did. Great stuff and could be used for a lot of other things like motor home.
Hey, here's a link to the data, you should be able to download it and use it on your computer. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lfsujVQ3DyMhPcjH6_QFHcESo4nYxKEt9yI8b-3cK0Q/edit?usp=sharing I used a screen scraping too that was an extension for the Chrome browser. I don't think I'll use the one I used again. It was too complicated and actually took some programming to get it to work for me. I think there are better ones available that I'm going to try in the future. There is one named simply "Scraper" that might be worth using.
Yachtworld list prices are VERY inflated & all over the place, making your pricing info very inaccurate. You need to sweet talk a broker into allowing you a look at the database showing what boats are actually selling for, NOT what their owners & selling brokers are HOPING they are worth.
Yeah. I should've made that point more clear. I made sure to say this was listing price a bunch of times. But I should've said it loud and clear that listing prices can range from really good deals to really really bad overpriced deals. THe idea being that this gives folks a starting point, not and end point. If that makes sense.
This is the most valid post here. I too am shopping for a cat. I've noticed that MANY Yactworld brokers slap on an extra 50k-100K, and the boats just sit on the market for 2-3 years (depreciating). It is a baffling market. I"m surprised that owners would allow this to happen to their boat.
It would be very easy to apply a straight discount of 10% to all categories - length or mono vs. cat. This probably glosses over what we are really trying to learn which is: Are discounts higher or lower for cats vs. monos? Is there a length where discounts are higher or lower? In real estate deals it's very easy to see list price vs. sales price data. This comparison really gives a good data point as to what the market is really doing. In the boat marker this data seems to be harder to come by. One other data point worth nothing is how does seasonality factor into list prices or sales prices? At the end of the day this is a start to the analysis...the most that I've seen online!!
Where your should go next is pricing out maintenance cost, slip fees, etc.. That is where you will see the biggest difference. Example in Southern California a 40 foot mono cost 790 to slip it where a 40 foot Cat is 1600. Consider that over time. No mooring balls here. Lol!
I too am shopping for a Cat in the 40-45 200k-300k. I've actually found that the better deals are in the Med, at least for me. Looking for a newer 3 cabin, low usage ect.. In the U.S. the good deals come out and are snapped up in a short amount of time leaving everything else behind. I've seen some Cats sit on the market for years. Have you talked to a broker yet?
Yeah, that's what we've seen too, best deals in the med, second best deals in the Caribbean. And practically nothing is a deal in the US. We've spoken with a couple brokers and think we have settled down on someone we like. We'll do a video on all of the boat buying stuff we've been learning once we've bought our boat. Though that still might be a few months out. There is definitely at lot to learn.
I agree this sounds cool, I'll keep a close eye on your channel. I have a flight leaving for tomorrow to Greece, for just this reason. There are a few cat's in the Athens and Lefkas area that I'm going to take a much closer look at.
Very interesting video. I think you have to take a couple of other factors in as well, such as historical data and inflation. I have a Gemini 3200 cat and paid around 60k last year. By searching 'the google', I came across an old copy of Cruising World from 1998 where there were several 3200's for sale. All of them were 6-8 years old and were selling for around 80k average. Not much of a price drop from then to now but you have to take into consideration the change in inflation from then and now. Of course, income levels haven't really kept up in that time (adjusted for inflation)
Really good analysis.Perhaps the catamaran construction techniques changed in the early 2000's making them more prone to problems than those of the 90's. There was a time when a lot of companies jumped into making catamarans then went out of business because of both quality and the global economy. Bumfuzzle's story comes to mind as an example of hull delamination of a cat brand and the subsequent demise of the SA company. Just a surmise. -johnny
Interesting video, does the data provide a usable picture of the depreciation curve? So would it show you when the depreciation starts to get less painful? It will be interesting to watch your journey as you start to get specific on the budget/boat/spec and I suspect that all your research will become useful at that stage. Good luck!
I believe if you draw a tangent to the line on the last graph analized it shows depreciation rate, the more flat the line the lower depreciation value. please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.
Great vid! I think the 1990s vs 2000s data may just be insignificant fluctuations in the data; if you checked 'r' values, I bet that would hold out. But, that said, maybe people looking for a bargain naturally aim for pre-2000 and it drives the market up slightly for the late-1990s boats. About the 2007-2009 data, I get what you're saying about the 10-year-old charters, but I believe that hump is first and foremost because of the economy crash. Yachts are, after all, a luxury item, and sales of luxury items plummeted across the board in 2008/9. It will be interesting to look at the data again in 3 or so years and see how dramatic of a hump is still visible.
Thanks for the comment. Yeah it'll be interesting to compare new data to this data as time goes on. I think there will be some interesting things that fall out of it in addition to getting the new data.
That was a lot of data and a lot of useful data, with a hint of some useless data, but great job. Almost sounds like your changing your thoughts on a CAT. No matter which way your going it is nice to see someone doing their homework before hand, i myself am a compulsive buyer and that has got me to but stuff i am not happy with. What are your thoughts on all the data Ryan? Where are you guys looking after all this data?
We're wanting a cat. The only thing that'll change that at this point is $$. We'll be talking to loan people soon. It should't be a problem, but with dealing with other people & money I'm a pessimist till proven otherwise.
This certainly tells me to buy my cat in the US not in Australia. Much cheaper. Everything you have highlighted Ryan shows that Cat's, while comparatively more expensive, are for some reason about 30-50% cheaper via the USA. Thanks for the data.
Very detailed and analytical. This will help you narrow stuff down but won’t do squat when it comes time to actually buy. You can’t buy a used boat based solely on numbers, it takes a certain amount of intuition and gut feeling. Buying a used boat cat or mono will have compromises, period. You need to decide what you want and don’t want then be willing to accept a bit of both. Taking the plunge and signing the papers is an instant rush full of mixed emotions, excitement, regret, fear and anticipation all at the same time but it does get easier. Having cruised off and on with two dogs for the last seven years…WTF were you thinking getting a dog before embarking on a world cruise? Wait til yours gets into something, like say a rotten fish onshore and has explosive diarrhea in the cockpit for three days and the wash down pump craps out; Or in bad weather when they wedge themselves into the forecastle and proceed to puke all over your bedding, not to mention entry issues and quarantine; It’s doable but not ideal. Try and find some rubberized booties for walking on the boat in a breeze, dog claws do not grip fiberglass very well. As for the Cat vs Mono thing you’ve got your opinion but FYI there is a very cruise ready 32’ mono heavy long keel cruiser in Panama that had over a 100K refit ready to circumnav for pocket change right now (owners selling for health and heading for states). I have no affiliation with the owners but you could literally be cruising the world right now for 1/5th of what you plan on spending on your cat. Some people spend years looking for the right boat and never buy one or realize their dream. Stop procrastinating, take the leap and get sailing.
Yeah, we bought the dog before we had concocted the idea of sailing. We know it'll make it trickier and there will be extra issues with the dog. But like you said it is possible. We've never considered cruising to be an "easy life." An easy comfortable life isn't our primary goal. We've traveled around the world living out of backbacks and staying is hostels & airbnbs. It wasn't easy but we loved the adventure of it. In our eyes sailing/cruising is just an extension of that. And the hardships that come with it are just part of the adventure. And yeah I hear you on the "go do it now" mindset. We've got a pretty hard date limit set for ourselves to be on a boat sometime next fall. Regardless of our money situation. We're pretty sure we can do it on a cat. But worse case we'll go mono. We're definitely not not doing it.
The thing to really consider isn't how hard it is on you to have a dog on board, but how hard it is on the dog. Just like people some dogs are great with it, some not so much so its anybodies guess until you unite the lines. Good to hear you've set a date stick to it. I've also backpacked across several continents and sailing is easier with more creature comforts (depending on where you've travelled of course) but the stress element makes it harder. You 'house' is always breaking down, weather threatens you constantly its a whole different animal. Good luck. i have a 1100nm passage starting on the 11th. Best of luck
andy816896 But this is "boats for sale", not "boats built", so I'd suspect he's spot on with the fact they are coming up on their 10 years of service (most likely listed as "under contract until xxxx" or "available xxxx")
What id=s the point of comparing monos vs cat based on boat length? Cost of hull manufacturing is based on pounds of fiberglass not length. a 40 ft cat has a lot more figerglass than a mono. Pounds of figerglass or net tonnage (internal volume) is a true comparison length in not relevant
ParrotSailor Ya, I'd prefer a square footage or volume comparison too: length, even among monohulls can be deceptive depending on max beam and how the beam is carried back, so between cats and monos it's not really a useful comparison at all. But like he said, that data is nearly impossible to get for more than a few, I suspect in part because the industry doesn't want you comparing apples to apples that way, the salesmen prefer to keep some mystery in the numbers.
Wilfred I dont think they hide the numbers but boats are built in relatively small numbers and styles for sales purposes and IOR racing rules have influnced designs for good or bad. Old double enders will have much less internal volume than a newer style boat for example Then its how is the space used for example. The owners cabin of a center cockpit 40 something mono will be twice as big as a catamaran micro cabin but then you give up cocktail parties on the tramoline...all boats are a compromise. In general manufacturers build what the customer wants to buy and in general the numbers say that individual owners that likes to SAIL prefers monos for whatever reason. Charter companies buy alot of cats because thats what makes money for them. Its an easier sell to the average charter customer and higher berth counts promote lower per person charters. Large party decks fit the charter customer vacation experience.Clorox bottle construction combined with cheap lightweight internal fittings provide a low weight inexpensive to repair platform compared to the expensive joinery found on most new monos. I would say however that most boats end up as Marina Queens and for this use its personal preference.
Matthew Wright So when I was in junior high (20 some years ago) and I took a class on databasing, we learned in excel, and I have used excel ever since. I had no idea I was so far behind the times. Thanks for the insight.
Actually there is no data to support that as the boats have gotten more expensive overtime so depreciation would only work if he had the original boat price in the data set.
Interesting data. Thank you. But your habit of ending every statement with a question mark was kind of hard to listen to. Leave "uptalk" to teenage girls, please.
Robin White It's because he is taking to a camera with no feedback, his brain is constantly questioning if the listener is understanding which comes across in his speech (common in youth when they don't completely understand the topic they are talking about themselves). Very difficult to change, and if it bothers you that much you may just have to move along.
Hey guys. Interesting comments. Never noticed my upward inflection was as prevalent as it is in videos. I agree its probably from talking to the camera. It's very weird talking to something with no feedback though I think I'm getting better with time. And while some of the stuff we make videos on is new to us, I'd use the same upward inflection if I were explaining something in knew very well such as programming computers. Upward inflection is a natural habit for people who seek to solicit feedback from the listeners even if the feedback is non-verbal. The camera clearly doesn't do any of that so I probably do upward inflect at a higher rate than I would talking to a person. So thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it and will slowly work at making it sound more natural. Cheers!
Jessica and Ryan Adventures Dude, it's totally cool. Don't sweat it at all. Some people are annoyed by the slightest little thing. I didn't mean to imply you didn't know what you were talking about, you obviously have gone through these numbers up down and sideways. I was attempting to address his "teenage girl" comment but I didn't write what I meant to say, mostly because I didn't care to spend that much time on his…comment. I'm sorry if my abbreviated response to him caused you even a moment's consternation. Brilliant video, even better the second time.
Hey Ryan. Thanks for this video! My wife and I have been planning to sail pretty much for as long as we have been together. The past three years or so we have really been looking only into cats, and your data matches with what we have seen over this time. The price gap has been our major hurdle. With our life situations changing we have decided to look back into monohulls, just so that we can get onto the water faster. Comparing our budget with what is available for monos, strangely it is seeming more realistic for us to jump on a good newer, longer monohull. Again, thanks for the video. We love watching your adventure unfold.
I greatly appreciate your videos like this. It tremendously helps me scope out my budget and gives me other things to consider during my search! Thanks again!
Really like slide 10...
Very telling in terms of length and price of monos vs. cats.
Very good analysis for those of us who love looking at numbers.
Hi Jessica and Ryan
I have been going through this exercise myself for quite a while, the shopping and research is an adventure all to itself. I finally decided on a 44 foot monohull, ex-charter located in Croatia, which I just purchased, and now here I sit in Split, after finally getting on board and taking her out for a sail today!
Now the fun part begins, all the logistics required to bring her back home so I can live on it while working in the UAE. Registration is a bit of a sticky point here in the EU, so factor that in if you buy overseas and intend to sail it right away. Then comes transport, I will be shipping the boat as cargo I think due to safety concerns along the route back to Abu Dhabi.
I will be following along with your adventures with great interest.
Good luck and fair winds!
Hi Don, Very cool. Congrats on your purchase! Very exciting. So with regard to the registration, I'm curious what the sticky points were and what sort of lessons you learned. Maybe shoot us an email at jessicaandryanadventures@gmail.com if you get time.
Dude! I'm way analytical and suggested to my first boat broker I felt I needed to do all the data crunching you've done to find the sweet spot in the market....He laughed. Very well done. Now if I can only convince my first mate that a mono will do just fine, rather than the cat's she is focused on.
Great job! It would be interesting to show median figures instead of mean averages. That way outliers will tend to be stripped out leaving a more accurate representation of the typical boats you might find on the market.
Thanks for the number crunching, very helpful.
Excellent Data presentation
Well done, Ryan - these are really clear and logical insights that confirm some widely held beliefs. It would be very interesting to compare costs when the variable of "beam" is included (not a request - unless have a beam field in your 22K + records), but I wouldn't be surprised to see the acquisition costs of cats versus monohulls close to equivalent by length when useable/liveable space is factored in (and beam may not be the best way to quantify that, but I'm not sure how else to do that). Excellent work - I really like what you've done here - thank you for sharing this.
Since you asked? I don't know if the data is available? It would be interesting to know the maintenance cost? trend line year-to-year for both or just catamarans only as I know you guys are leaning more to get a catamaran.
Great video..thanks for doing the research!
Great job. Very useful. Thank You
15:16 Just a guess: All boats need a significant refit after +/- 15 years. When owners has invested money in there boat, they want to recuperate that money somewhat. Those boats are also often the best equipped ones!
Great video!
Very interesting thanks! I was wondering if you would make a step by step guide for the buying process ie with a focus on survey, insurance, sea-trial, and very important how to safely hand over your money to a distant owner etc.
What a great video, buddy. Thanks
I shopped for a couple of years before making my 1st large boat purchase. You have done an amazing job in highlighting the issues and key decision points. One particular item i would like to comment on. Its extremely interesting that you generalized that mid 90's boats hold their value more than boats produced in 2000. I strongly believe that the 1999 dot-com crash caused a widespread quality cheapening of even very quality boat names.I ended up with a 1996 pacific seacraft 34... by 1996 the boat was extremely debugged (example: 38 hp yanmar rather than 27hp westerbeake (sp), the hull construction process was refined to minimize blistering, lots of owner comments just improved the boat to near as good as possible (for the type of boat being built) etc.... After the 1999 dot-com crash... pacific seacraft pushed less expensive boats such as the 31 just to try and find a boat people could afford to buy new. The 2008 financial market crashed finished the job... virtually no more new top quality boat being built. The less expensive boats such as Benneteau (decent) became the top dog of the new monohull market. Also... cats increased supply and demand in the mid 90s have given monohulls tuff competition for potential new boat purchasers in general. As i live on my boat 50+ % of the time and frequently meet other cruisers... it seems the mid-90s boats are often purchased over newer or older with similar reasons provided. My question for these mid-90s boats now is... with zero new supply of these boats... will the demand and price increase over time ? Or... has the demand for sailboats dropped in general, more than enough to offset this slowly dwindling supply ? Again, great work. Thanks
This was a great analysis! We're selling our monohull and upgrading to a cat in the next 18 months. Love following your adventures and savings plans! Keep up the great work.
Very cool! Good luck with your upgrade!
Very useful and interesting, thanks for that data analysis. Cool!
Ryan has figured out that when you buy a catamaran you are buying two hulls, two engines, two rudders, two lots of living areas, two heads and they cost twice as much. they are also very popular because of the extra room and perceived stability
walk-out sterns were introduced between 1990-92. You will find a very pronounced price jump on (for example) a Catalina 36 from 1989 to 1990. All the volume builders switched to walk out sterns at that time. Many consider any boat without a walkout stern "dated". Like buying a house with a one-car garage or a carport.
Oh, very interesting, thanks for the info!
Great video! It would be nice if you can post the regression formula of the line on the last graph with the r squared and t-stat values. The regression coefficient would be the yearly depreciation and the r squared and t stat would be how accurate the regression is. Also, doing a log scale on the y axis works well for displaying price data over time.
Very interesting video, thank you. Subscribed !!!
Great research. That last graph almost seems to imply that the catamarans lose value on average around $10K per year as you follow the trendline to the left. So it loosely gives me a timeline on how many ears to wait to buy my dream cat ;)
Great work, great colour, focus spot on editing very good. Man what a database you are collecting. Cheers
thanks!
Hey guys. Hope this is useful for those of you looking to buy a boat. If any of you have any further insights explaining what the data is showing we'd love to hear it! Also, we'd like to know which chart(s) did you personally find most useful?
Also PS: yes this is a re-upload of this video. The previous version had messed up charts.
Also also, looks like the new video has a couple weird artifacts in it. Oh well. You guys get the gist. :)
Jessica and Ryan Adventures g
Jessica and Ryan Adventures n
Jessica and Ryan Adventures j
I believe that post 1995 you are starting to see the introduction of more and more cored hulls...
Earlier hulls were made from solid glass, and I think there is a perception that solid glass hulls will last longer than cored hulls, and therefore they will remain seaworthy for a longer period.
I think we will see another staggering of the price, when people start to understand how, that after the release of ISO 12215-5 new cored yachts are being designed with very thin skins indeed.
I believe the effect these thin skins will have on the longevity of modern yachts will be dramatic, and in time this will be reflected in second hand market.
This is exactly my thought...
+Tim Hunt More like post-1975. And some builders build better cored hulls than others, at different periods. I.e. I wouldn't touch a 1995 Hunter with a 10' pole, but a 1985 would still be very serviceable unless really abused by it's PO.
This is the kind of information you don't find on YachtWorld. Is there a place to find more information on good/bad brands and years for sailboats?
I actually went looking for a good source for cored decks. There aren't that many good places. Some people volunteer information about their own boats and the decks, but not a good solid listing of years.
You can add me to the list of those that want a solid glass hull even with the negatives. There really needs to be a good source for stuff like this... I vote Ryan brilliant enough to figure it out.
Tim Hunt - Wow! That is an interesting comment. It would be interesting to see a comparison of thickness of hulls over the years of various mfrs. as well as the number of boats made that are still in the water over the years.
I bet all the newbies who don't know how to sail who are just looking at size and price might change their priorities if they realize that although they spent a small fortune for their newer boat, the hull turns out to be flimsy and cheaply made.
It would also be interesting to compare hull thickness of the average cat versus monohull.
This is all great stuff. I am a few years away from selling everything and moving on a boat myself. What I am really wondering is what the impact of this years hurricanes and the destruction of so many boats that would have been coming up for sail in the next few years will mean to the boat market. Supply and demand is going to be out of whack for several years because of Harvey, Irma and Jose if not others. It would be very interesting to do this again in a few months to see if the market has changed as a result of the reduction of available boats. I am sure some of the boats currently listed do not exist anymore.
I liked your approach, but did it slightly differently on our side. I too put together a spreadsheet, but instead focused on certain boats, and gathered the data for each as they were added. We're in the monohull market (currently under contract for a boat in Europe), and we were looking for a bluewater-specific model. Of course, the next question became, how do you tell if it's designed for that type of sailing, or whether it's just a production boat where the manufacturer claims it's "A" Ocean rated? My spreadsheet has about 125 boats in it ranging from about 42' min to 57' max. Boats over 50' haven't really been on our short list, but the boat we finally chose was 48', so not so far off. For each, I calculated B/D, D/L, Motion Comfort (MC), Calculated Hull Speed (HS), and Capsize Screening Value (CSV). Some of these values are simplistic and not to be relied upon too much (HS and CSV specifically), but when you compare across over a hundred boats trends start to appear. The biggest is that there is a huge difference between lightweight modern production boats and bluewater specific brands such as Hylas, Passport, Tayana, Oyster, Hallberg Rassy, Swan, Discovery, Contest, etc. As one might suspect, finding one of the latter at a reasonable price and age becomes quite the task. We were able to find none that we liked and could afford on this side of the pond. But the strength of the US dollar abroad has helped some. We have videos of the boats we've traveled to see on our Sailing at 9000 TH-cam channel.
@ sailing at 9000, I am interested if you would be willing to share the spreadsheet you made as well? Looking for boats in the 40-50 foot range but you brought up some really interesting points about the specifics that you calculated that I had not even considered. I'd be curious to see what boats you came across and how they stacked up to others in the same range. Thanks, fair winds.
I'll message you.
Sailing at 9000 I'd be interested in your research. looking for a 38-43 boat to do both crusing and occasional blue water. affordability currently driving me to production boats but your research may help. thanks again!
Perhaps a useful additional analysis would be internal sq Ft comparison. A shorter cat can have more living space than a longer monohull. Also pound load capacity comparison; price of either type vs how much weight they can carry.
great work
Could the answer to your question be the recession and less production of the 90's vs. the immediate big production of the 00's that you desccribe at 4:31
Great summary! Very useful. It's too bad there is not data available on actual sale price vs list price. I'm curious how you gathered your data. Did you manually grab it from all the different online sailboat listings or did you write some type of bot to gather the data?
P.S. Someone else ask about geographic differences. It seems like similar size boats are much less in the Turkey/Greece/Mediterranean region. Did you look at that?
excellent video
I loved this video!! At the beginning in the video you briefly showed the spreadsheet you used. One of the columns was countries. Did you have enough data to make a graph of the number of mono vs cats for sale per country? I'm just curious where the boats migrate to after they are made.
1997 recession? Also plenty of great mono hull boats from 70's and 80's available and modern interior volume emphasizing design not really taken off until late 2000's so an excess of supply of second hand boats and limited attraction of new builds. Maybe. Excellent video.
Yes, this was great data and made me totally geek out. Thanks. Early 2000's is the dot com bust and I wonder if that might have caused some of those boats to not be as well maintained as the ones from the 1990's, causing their asking prices to be lower.
Great and interesting insite.
Great video. Like you I am drawn to the data. While I like the idea of comparing square footage of Mono's vs Cats, the issue is how the space is used. It would be interesting to do a study of cruisers and see what correlation they would make about how big the boat FEELs. A 40' cat feels like a 54' mono. A 44' feels like a 65' mono.... and then compare that to the cost difference. Very unscientific but closer comparison in some regards. One other thing I have been curious about as we consider a cat is what folks are seeing for marina cost. We would not plan to be in a marina too often, but it would be good to know does it cost twice as much to moor a cat because the huge beam? Same with storage cost on the hard?
Anyways, thanks for the great videos.
Trey
I love spreadsheets!
Great video. Where did you find the raw dataset?
Yes, where did you find this data? I would like to do a similar analysis on RV's.
I would also like to know where you get the raw data.
It's answered at about 17:10. He screen-scrapes data from Yachtworld.com. He doesn't say the latter at that point in the video, but I believe he either said it at another point or in another video.
Thanks for the link! Found it on the comments. :)
It would be interesting to know the price per foot, preferably based on the actual sales price. You could then understand the premium or discount you would pay for having a larger or smaller boat, and differences between brands.
Good idea! I think that would be useful. I wish it was easy to get the square footage of a boat both inside and out to get price per sq ft. But those numbers are near impossible to get. But price per foot in length is a start.
I would like to see the average maintenance/ carry costs for cat/mono,yr,length including what they paid for the boat
Good info, I'm in kinda the same position as you looking to go Catamaran around $200K. How did you account for multiple listings for the same boat?
I didn't try to deduplicate on this dataset. I was worried about removing more false positives than true positives. And I already spent more time on it than I'd intended. But Its a fair point, I'm just betting on the size of the data diminishing the impact of the duplicate listings.
Fair enough, like what you've done so far!
very useful
Nice work Ryan, you are getting to this like no other I have seen. Just remember some cat/ yachts have less or more equipment then others which you know any way.
Yeah, the equipment is probably one of the biggest & least talked about things. That's one of the downsides about purchasing an ex-charter boat. It's gonna have the minimum amount of equipment on it as is necessary. That's part of why they're so much cheaper.
Jessica and Ryan Adventures On the flip side, if you're going to add your own equipment it's better to buy a boat with only basic equipment. Many boats listed with full electronics suits are from the late 90s and even if it's working, it's now badly out dated and going to get replaced anyways, especially with the advent of solar dependant electronics, broadband radar, DSC, etc.
Deals can be had on newly refit boats equipmentwise. Many refit boats are sold soon after refit for family or health issues. Mostly the wife hates sailing and left the boat issues which is a common thing. Wilfreds mention of electronics is spot on tho. Instuments packages are trending away from the 10k MFD to I pads via nmea 2000 instuments ultrasonic wind/temp masthead instruments and cheaper less power hungry radar. But a sailboat with an good SSB and pactor modem and VHF and AIS transponder is better than one without
ParrotSailor Shoot I wasn't even thinking of the iPad/Garmin glasses angle: good point as that means even the newer suits are likely outdated.
But you're right about many other technologies not changing hardly at all. I knew this was a complicated subject before watching this video, but I fear this video also serves to highlight how stupidly complex the pricing question actually is!
My experience and recent reasearch on buying another new to me vessel soon shows that 19XX production boat with length of 3x/4X is more or less fixed at a sellable price and the equipment is more or less free.What is most overlooked in the buying process is engine hours and sail/rigging condition which is more important than electronics which may or may not work or be useful for you intended use. Also time period is a factor. If my big trip doesnt start for 2 years then the 4 year old radar which the PO spent 6k on and which you dont need will be well pat it when you leave. Generators on 40 something boat are often poorly maintained as they are showhorned in and with solar/hydro a much better deal than ever now do u even want it? Wouldnt u rather just have a Honda 2000 like the rest of us?That said a fully loaded boat will sell faster and provide much more value
Ryan, I see your MBA working on this analysis. As you were working through your analysis to help you understand the market, I was asking myself how to compare a cat to a monohull. If we take out the different sailing characteristics, and just assume that you are going to get a cat, then a comparison to a monohull is not important. But, in understanding the market as a whole, I propose that there is a factor that even the big sites and no one else use that really is what you are looking for. That is, what is the usable square meters of space(or usable square feet of usable) on a, for example, a 38 foot lipari vs a 43 foot mono Beneteau? It is similar to buying a house and comparing the cost per square foot. Just because a cat is 42 feet, we know that some brands are real beamy and the hulls rounded and others have a straight hull shape which takes from the total space but has sailing advantages. Have you considered this? What used cat offers the most space per foot? (this is apart from smart layout which is obviously a factor that you mentioned in your video comparing new vs used cats).
outstanding
I'm a numbers&stats guy as well as sailor too so I appreciate the work you put into illustrating this subject.
I'm a little more interested in the median lengths and costs instead of averages.
is there any chance you could make the raw spreadsheet available for us to play with the numbers as well? perhaps read-only googlesheet tha we could copy?
thanks again.
Yeah, sure thing, here's a like to a google sheet: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lfsujVQ3DyMhPcjH6_QFHcESo4nYxKEt9yI8b-3cK0Q/edit?usp=sharing
Jessica and Ryan Adventures much appreciated!
Hey man, great video with great information. Would you consider sharing the excel file?
sure thing. well.. i can share a link to the google sheet. you should be able to download that and use it in excel: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lfsujVQ3DyMhPcjH6_QFHcESo4nYxKEt9yI8b-3cK0Q/edit?usp=sharing
This data set is the most legit I have ever seen on the boat market. I've been slowly working on my own, using my more limited requirements, but hand curating it to eliminate anything I wouldn't actually consider buying, which is not nearly as generally useful as this. The inclusion of the locations allows some really good analysis of local markets. I've heard many times that a boat in the Mediterranean is half the cost of one in the States, and I've seen enough listings to support that idea, but this data set can prove if it is true or not. Great job!
Wow. Thanks for sharing! Great video.
I'm not catching the distinction anywhere. Is the "price" you have in the dataset the asking price, selling price, or something different?
Thanks!!!! I'm going to use this as a filtering method for what I can realistically afford.
Great information; I do appreciate your deep dives into data. As a non-data person, it has been very helpful, thank you. Love the t-shirts too; what is the Etsy store name?
Hi, thanks! We named the shop HonuBrand. It seemed too weird to call the shop JessicaAndRyanAdventures. And our logo is the turtle which is "honu" in hawaiian. Also, there's a link to the shop in the description of this video. :)
Great, thanks for the link. I just ordered my t-shirt. Peace & fair winds
Awesome video, it would be interesting to see cats laid out in a 3D plot age, price, length.
My question is, after having studied this data, are you still thinking cat or considering a mono for your own purchase (due to better cost/ft and availability)?
We're still intending to get a cat. But we know its going to cost more and be harder to find. That's sorta what's prompted us to do the extra research to we can have a better chance of making it happen.
That being said, we also know our monohull fallback plan if we can't get a loan or something. We like to know all our options.
Awesome, we are in the planning process as well. We'd prefer a cat but def want something big enough for passages. Thanks for the research, very helpful.
I know several well known manufacturers from the 70s and 80's went under in the mid 90's, don't know if that effects the numbers or not
so in 2020 there should be a huge sale on 2010's mono hulls?
To me it makes sense that a cat for any given year is more expensive than a Mono. It has 2 hulls and the Bridge deck. More boat per foot.
Firstly thank you for the great data!!! I'm interested in the same budget range, around 200k sterling £, and would want to have a 40ft plus cat.
So, the research I'm doing right now is second hand owners version of every brand of cat, not easy in the UK where cats aren't very popular.
Can't wait to see what you end up getting, and why!!!
Cheers
wold be nice to have access to your data like sharing google drive or dropbox. There are some boats I would like to look at by make and model. Also, would love to see how you did what you did. Great stuff and could be used for a lot of other things like motor home.
Hey, here's a link to the data, you should be able to download it and use it on your computer. docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1lfsujVQ3DyMhPcjH6_QFHcESo4nYxKEt9yI8b-3cK0Q/edit?usp=sharing
I used a screen scraping too that was an extension for the Chrome browser. I don't think I'll use the one I used again. It was too complicated and actually took some programming to get it to work for me. I think there are better ones available that I'm going to try in the future. There is one named simply "Scraper" that might be worth using.
Sweet! You rock.
Good vid
Thanks!
Thanks Ryan! Fantastic work! Download availability?
Yachtworld list prices are VERY inflated & all over the place, making your pricing info very inaccurate. You need to sweet talk a broker into allowing you a look at the database showing what boats are actually selling for, NOT what their owners & selling brokers are HOPING they are worth.
That is EXACTLY what would be helpful to buyers. Excellent question. Thank you!
Yeah. I should've made that point more clear. I made sure to say this was listing price a bunch of times. But I should've said it loud and clear that listing prices can range from really good deals to really really bad overpriced deals. THe idea being that this gives folks a starting point, not and end point. If that makes sense.
This is the most valid post here. I too am shopping for a cat. I've noticed that MANY Yactworld brokers slap on an extra 50k-100K, and the boats just sit on the market for 2-3 years (depreciating). It is a baffling market. I"m surprised that owners would allow this to happen to their boat.
agreed, this isn't a land based housing bubble market... always best to lowball and get the realistic depreciated boat price.
It would be very easy to apply a straight discount of 10% to all categories - length or mono vs. cat. This probably glosses over what we are really trying to learn which is: Are discounts higher or lower for cats vs. monos? Is there a length where discounts are higher or lower? In real estate deals it's very easy to see list price vs. sales price data. This comparison really gives a good data point as to what the market is really doing. In the boat marker this data seems to be harder to come by. One other data point worth nothing is how does seasonality factor into list prices or sales prices? At the end of the day this is a start to the analysis...the most that I've seen online!!
Where your should go next is pricing out maintenance cost, slip fees, etc.. That is where you will see the biggest difference. Example in Southern California a 40 foot mono cost 790 to slip it where a 40 foot Cat is 1600. Consider that over time. No mooring balls here. Lol!
Yeah, wow that's a big difference. Probably part of the reason why you don't see to many cats out there.
I too am shopping for a Cat in the 40-45 200k-300k. I've actually found that the better deals are in the Med, at least for me. Looking for a newer 3 cabin, low usage ect..
In the U.S. the good deals come out and are snapped up in a short amount of time leaving everything else behind. I've seen some Cats sit on the market for years.
Have you talked to a broker yet?
Yeah, that's what we've seen too, best deals in the med, second best deals in the Caribbean. And practically nothing is a deal in the US. We've spoken with a couple brokers and think we have settled down on someone we like. We'll do a video on all of the boat buying stuff we've been learning once we've bought our boat. Though that still might be a few months out. There is definitely at lot to learn.
I agree this sounds cool, I'll keep a close eye on your channel.
I have a flight leaving for tomorrow to Greece, for just this reason. There are a few cat's in the Athens and Lefkas area that I'm going to take a much closer look at.
Very interesting video. I think you have to take a couple of other factors in as well, such as historical data and inflation. I have a Gemini 3200 cat and paid around 60k last year. By searching 'the google', I came across an old copy of Cruising World from 1998 where there were several 3200's for sale. All of them were 6-8 years old and were selling for around 80k average. Not much of a price drop from then to now but you have to take into consideration the change in inflation from then and now. Of course, income levels haven't really kept up in that time (adjusted for inflation)
Original drive? What have you done with your Gemini?
The Gem3200 has an outboard...something I was looking for.
Cool video!
Thanks!
Really good analysis.Perhaps the catamaran construction techniques changed in the early 2000's making them more prone to problems than those of the 90's. There was a time when a lot of companies jumped into making catamarans then went out of business because of both quality and the global economy. Bumfuzzle's story comes to mind as an example of hull delamination of a cat brand and the subsequent demise of the SA company. Just a surmise.
-johnny
Interesting video, does the data provide a usable picture of the depreciation curve? So would it show you when the depreciation starts to get less painful? It will be interesting to watch your journey as you start to get specific on the budget/boat/spec and I suspect that all your research will become useful at that stage. Good luck!
I believe if you draw a tangent to the line on the last graph analized it shows depreciation rate, the more flat the line the lower depreciation value. please correct me if I am wrong in this assumption.
Great vid! I think the 1990s vs 2000s data may just be insignificant fluctuations in the data; if you checked 'r' values, I bet that would hold out. But, that said, maybe people looking for a bargain naturally aim for pre-2000 and it drives the market up slightly for the late-1990s boats.
About the 2007-2009 data, I get what you're saying about the 10-year-old charters, but I believe that hump is first and foremost because of the economy crash. Yachts are, after all, a luxury item, and sales of luxury items plummeted across the board in 2008/9. It will be interesting to look at the data again in 3 or so years and see how dramatic of a hump is still visible.
Thanks for the comment. Yeah it'll be interesting to compare new data to this data as time goes on. I think there will be some interesting things that fall out of it in addition to getting the new data.
That was a lot of data and a lot of useful data, with a hint of some useless data, but great job. Almost sounds like your changing your thoughts on a CAT. No matter which way your going it is nice to see someone doing their homework before hand, i myself am a compulsive buyer and that has got me to but stuff i am not happy with. What are your thoughts on all the data Ryan? Where are you guys looking after all this data?
We're wanting a cat. The only thing that'll change that at this point is $$. We'll be talking to loan people soon. It should't be a problem, but with dealing with other people & money I'm a pessimist till proven otherwise.
I knew you guys wanted a CAT but almost sounded like you were rethinking it. Hope you get everything you want and enjoy every minute of it
This certainly tells me to buy my cat in the US not in Australia. Much cheaper. Everything you have highlighted Ryan shows that Cat's, while comparatively more expensive, are for some reason about 30-50% cheaper via the USA. Thanks for the data.
Very detailed and analytical. This will help you narrow stuff down but won’t do squat when it comes time to actually buy. You can’t buy a used boat based solely on numbers, it takes a certain amount of intuition and gut feeling. Buying a used boat cat or mono will have compromises, period. You need to decide what you want and don’t want then be willing to accept a bit of both. Taking the plunge and signing the papers is an instant rush full of mixed emotions, excitement, regret, fear and anticipation all at the same time but it does get easier. Having cruised off and on with two dogs for the last seven years…WTF were you thinking getting a dog before embarking on a world cruise? Wait til yours gets into something, like say a rotten fish onshore and has explosive diarrhea in the cockpit for three days and the wash down pump craps out; Or in bad weather when they wedge themselves into the forecastle and proceed to puke all over your bedding, not to mention entry issues and quarantine; It’s doable but not ideal. Try and find some rubberized booties for walking on the boat in a breeze, dog claws do not grip fiberglass very well. As for the Cat vs Mono thing you’ve got your opinion but FYI there is a very cruise ready 32’ mono heavy long keel cruiser in Panama that had over a 100K refit ready to circumnav for pocket change right now (owners selling for health and heading for states). I have no affiliation with the owners but you could literally be cruising the world right now for 1/5th of what you plan on spending on your cat. Some people spend years looking for the right boat and never buy one or realize their dream. Stop procrastinating, take the leap and get sailing.
Yeah, we bought the dog before we had concocted the idea of sailing. We know it'll make it trickier and there will be extra issues with the dog. But like you said it is possible. We've never considered cruising to be an "easy life." An easy comfortable life isn't our primary goal. We've traveled around the world living out of backbacks and staying is hostels & airbnbs. It wasn't easy but we loved the adventure of it. In our eyes sailing/cruising is just an extension of that. And the hardships that come with it are just part of the adventure. And yeah I hear you on the "go do it now" mindset. We've got a pretty hard date limit set for ourselves to be on a boat sometime next fall. Regardless of our money situation. We're pretty sure we can do it on a cat. But worse case we'll go mono. We're definitely not not doing it.
The thing to really consider isn't how hard it is on you to have a dog on board, but how hard it is on the dog. Just like people some dogs are great with it, some not so much so its anybodies guess until you unite the lines. Good to hear you've set a date stick to it. I've also backpacked across several continents and sailing is easier with more creature comforts (depending on where you've travelled of course) but the stress element makes it harder. You 'house' is always breaking down, weather threatens you constantly its a whole different animal. Good luck. i have a 1100nm passage starting on the 11th. Best of luck
You get a peak in boat construction 10 years ago because we had a financial crisis in 2008
andy816896 But this is "boats for sale", not "boats built", so I'd suspect he's spot on with the fact they are coming up on their 10 years of service (most likely listed as "under contract until xxxx" or "available xxxx")
What id=s the point of comparing monos vs cat based on boat length? Cost of hull manufacturing is based on pounds of fiberglass not length. a 40 ft cat has a lot more figerglass than a mono. Pounds of figerglass or net tonnage (internal volume) is a true comparison length in not relevant
ParrotSailor Ya, I'd prefer a square footage or volume comparison too: length, even among monohulls can be deceptive depending on max beam and how the beam is carried back, so between cats and monos it's not really a useful comparison at all. But like he said, that data is nearly impossible to get for more than a few, I suspect in part because the industry doesn't want you comparing apples to apples that way, the salesmen prefer to keep some mystery in the numbers.
Wilfred I dont think they hide the numbers but boats are built in relatively small numbers and styles for sales purposes and IOR racing rules have influnced designs for good or bad. Old double enders will have much less internal volume than a newer style boat for example Then its how is the space used for example. The owners cabin of a center cockpit 40 something mono will be twice as big as a catamaran micro cabin but then you give up cocktail parties on the tramoline...all boats are a compromise. In general manufacturers build what the customer wants to buy and in general the numbers say that individual owners that likes to SAIL prefers monos for whatever reason. Charter companies buy alot of cats because thats what makes money for them. Its an easier sell to the average charter customer and higher berth counts promote lower per person charters. Large party decks fit the charter customer vacation experience.Clorox bottle construction combined with cheap lightweight internal fittings provide a low weight inexpensive to repair platform compared to the expensive joinery found on most new monos. I would say however that most boats end up as Marina Queens and for this use its personal preference.
ParrotSailor I wouldn't say they hide them, but they aren't in the brochure either.
Makes you think about Monos you can get a lot of boat for your money.
(O yes you need to get out more LOL)
Got to make a database man. Forget that excel garbage.
Matthew Wright So when I was in junior high (20 some years ago) and I took a class on databasing, we learned in excel, and I have used excel ever since. I had no idea I was so far behind the times. Thanks for the insight.
Holy $hit - the average cat looses $1000 bucks per month in resale value!!! That's useful to know - no matter how depressing :/
Actually there is no data to support that as the boats have gotten more expensive overtime so depreciation would only work if he had the original boat price in the data set.
this guy must be an accountant he loves all the numbers. show us the boats?
Interesting data. Thank you. But your habit of ending every statement with a question mark was kind of hard to listen to. Leave "uptalk" to teenage girls, please.
Robin White It's because he is taking to a camera with no feedback, his brain is constantly questioning if the listener is understanding which comes across in his speech (common in youth when they don't completely understand the topic they are talking about themselves). Very difficult to change, and if it bothers you that much you may just have to move along.
Hey guys. Interesting comments. Never noticed my upward inflection was as prevalent as it is in videos. I agree its probably from talking to the camera. It's very weird talking to something with no feedback though I think I'm getting better with time. And while some of the stuff we make videos on is new to us, I'd use the same upward inflection if I were explaining something in knew very well such as programming computers. Upward inflection is a natural habit for people who seek to solicit feedback from the listeners even if the feedback is non-verbal. The camera clearly doesn't do any of that so I probably do upward inflect at a higher rate than I would talking to a person. So thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it and will slowly work at making it sound more natural. Cheers!
Jessica and Ryan Adventures Dude, it's totally cool. Don't sweat it at all. Some people are annoyed by the slightest little thing. I didn't mean to imply you didn't know what you were talking about, you obviously have gone through these numbers up down and sideways. I was attempting to address his "teenage girl" comment but I didn't write what I meant to say, mostly because I didn't care to spend that much time on his…comment. I'm sorry if my abbreviated response to him caused you even a moment's consternation. Brilliant video, even better the second time.
No worries. Just didn't want to filter out your really interesting analysis. I'm sure you know exactly what you meant to say.