Regarding beaching or running aground with a daggerboard raised. Catana's have a type of mini skeg that supports the shaft drive and protects the rudder and allows it to be beached. Other brands may have something similar. Also the daggerboard is made to break in case of severe impact to protect the hull and casing. Much cheaper to replace the daggerboard, which you can't do with a catamaran with keels.
Watched your video two times more and have read ALL the comments again! Surprised you have not inquired of my comments on the advancement on SCABBOARDS! After centuries of just THREE choices: keels , daggerboards & centerboards it's about time that we finally have a technical improvement for a lateral resistant underwater appendage SCABBOARDS offer superb advantage of Blade/ foil design. They maintain their cross-section regardless of their draft unlike centerboards or fixed keels. Also, unlike dagger board SCABBOARDS can automatically retreat upon contact with a submerged object, reef or beach. The issue with keels and daggerboards is that having an impact can significantly Damage not only by breaching the hull causing sinking but exert violent slaming of the standing rig in forward rotation. SCABBOARDS are different than either daggerboards or keels in that they are designed to automatically withdraw thus not needing crew intervention to respond to impending unseen hazard, such as on autopilot and more cruising. SCABBOARDS utilize a trunk much like a dagger board ( only nominally larger) and do not require addition of a crash box. Neither do SCABBOARDS have to be designed to shear off upon impact for safety ( requiring spares on board). SABBOARDS do not have to be raised above deck and yet can be serviced on deck unlike centerboards which are mounted under the waterline in a LARGE open slot ( induced drag). Likewise, as a centerboard rotated on it's nominal bearing point/pin and as it does so it loses any relationship of a proper foil shape as well as moving center of effort SCABBOARDS do not rotate aft, rather they lift vertically as struck. SCABBOARDS are a 4th generation of appendage unlike any other variant of existing sailboat design. I would love to have an opportunity to discuss this variant, I can be reached at Njsea7@gmail.com
@Jessica and Ryan Adventures I find that 6 years later some catamaran builders answered all your cons with heavily constructed dabberboard boxes, reinforce hulls, reinforced removable kick up rudders ect. You probably get some video traction with an update to this video! This video here was thoroughly explained. Thank you!
As the owner of a 40' cat with dagger boards, I would not have it any other way. We sail 10-15 degs higher than fixed keel boats--we did this weekend racing against a Seawind 1250 and a 13m FP Orana. We came from behind and sailed well above them and were doing 3-4 knots more--this was in 10-12 knots of wind. We sail as high if not higher than any of the good monos around. This is why boards make a boat a delight to sail--especially up wind. Yes there is a significant safety factor in being able to get away from weather systems and sail off a lee shore--this is a significant issue Weight has nothing to do with daggerboards/keels. This depends on the waterline/beam length ratio--a lower ratio the more weight and of course the slower the boat. Yes, keep the boards down so the engines and rudders are protected. We built furniture and storage around the cases--them taking up room is a totally insignificant issue. Yes Boards are more expensive, that's why the charter boats don't have them No stuff does not grow in the cases--10 years on the water and there has been no problem with 'critters'. It's way faster to clean the case (without removing the boards) than it is to antifoul two keels Yes there is some more know how in how to sail with them but it's not difficult Beaching is just fine with boards, I beach mine regularly If your rudders are not strong enough to handle boards being in the wrong position, you have a real problem with your rudders--we have never noticed them loading up significantly and when cruising we don't pay them a lot of attention and the autopilot is usually doing all the steering. We are cruisers an are not constantly tweaking, we just like sailing well. If you like sailing you'll be bored to tears with keels and you'll have to use your engine a whole lot more--from my perspective, this takes a lot of the fun away from why we're out there.
Hey Philip, thanks for the comment and perspective. Interesting to hear critters don't grow in the cases for you. Just curious, do you think this is because you take better than average care of it? Or do you think that folks who do have problems with growth in the cases might be taking less that average care of them? Also, when you beach, do you end up with weight on the rudders? Or is the natural slope of the beach enough to keep them safe? Or something else?
We only pull the boat out of the water once every 16-18 months--in fact it's happening this weekend. The cases were extremely well built and are a snug fit around the boards where they exit the hull so there is very little space for anything to grow--also we push antifoul paint as far up there as we can with a brush. Finally the boards are antifouled for the first 400mm so that may put things off as well. The other safety factor is that each board has a sacrificial end that is designed to break off if we hit anything hard. When beaching yes the boat sits on the rudders but they are built to manage this and there is no issue. This allows me to service the engines and clean the waterline--however we can't antifoul the hulls as they sit too much on the sand. I carefully inspect the area for rocks etc before I put the boat there and make sure that waves can't hit the boat. Certainly, in Australia, there are stories of keels having structural issues when they are put on the slip, one keel broke clean off and others have struggled to hold the weight of the boat, often due to them not being aligned with bulkheads etc--a friend of mine used to own a slip way that specialised in cats and he has horror stories.
Hi Phil, I enjoyed this video and appreciate your real-life feedback. I am researching for the kind of Catamaran to build and another video by Tim Weston who built Tokyo Express educated me on the merits of Daggerboard design. Wondering if you have seen Tim’s videos. I would like to be able to communicate with you directly if that is fine. Kindly tell me how I can do that directly. Would want to be cruising in 4 years when I hit 60. Thank you
In some ways this topic can be related to your primary motivation for purchasing a cat. If the reason was because they go fast, then you likely want dagger boards, any other reason, mini keels are probably the way to go. There is also the glass half full/empty argument: A friend of mine thinks dagger boards are something else to worry about, whereas I think of them as something else to play with.
Excellent presentation ! Easy for beginners to understand and very well organized. Good job. I would choose daggerboards for the safety of sailing near a lee shore and the increased speed.
I like the very correct way that you say, "when" you ground, and not "if" you ground. Although I sail a monohull, I have gotten out of trouble a couple of times by immediately going into reverse - you can't really do that if your propeller and rudder is already buried in mud/sand.
When we are sailing shallow waters we keep the boards down a foot deeper than the rudders, then if we hit the bottom and stop we just lift them a bit and back off, it's pretty easy...
Nice comparison. I like you pos an cons. Overall clear message. Very useful Some remarks about the cons: - Grounding is a matter of navigation for sure at high speed. - All systems that you are using wrongly will have disadvantages. Again nicely done.
Excellent summary Ryan. I thought I might contribute a couple of missed points. As a Daggerboard Pro, they will tack and gybe much faster than a deep or long fixed keel. As a Con, when downwind or a bit off and the boards are up, I find the boat hobby-horses a bit more than I would expect. Another point - the fixed keels often have a considerable amount of lead in them, sort of refuting the buoyancy argument. My take: If you are crossing oceans, the make a lot of difference. If you are cruising through the virgins, not worth the headaches. In between, make the call on performance.
As my grandpa said "if we all liked the same thing, I'd have had to join a line to date grandma." Make your mind up and learn to love what you're committed to!
This was excellent, excellent, excellent. You cleared up a lot of my questions regarding daggerboards vs. fixed keels on cats. Obviously, I intend to buy a cat too, but never was quite clear on all the differences. You do a fabulous job at researching these things and it's very, very helpful. Regarding the t-shirts, I received mine and I LOVE it! So soft and it fits well. Thanks again....Peace & fair winds
Well explained Ryan. For all of the reasons you said: More space inside, generally beamier hulls with more interior volume, more weight capacity, more simple to sail with, able to ground your boat on a beach etc, etc, Janice and I are certain that we do not want a Cat with daggerboards. We, like you want to live on our Cat and having lots of stuff on board is bound to happen. Plus I am sure when Janice is on watch she will not want to think about if the daggerboards should be higher or lower. A fixed keep boat is just so much more simple to sail and has a lot of pros over a daggerboard boat. Well presented by you. I agree with you too that the perceived speed improvement of a daggerboard boat may be slightly overstated because those with daggerboards then to be longer, slimmer performance hulls so they have that going for them as well as the daggerboards when it comes to total speed while sailing.
Thanks! Good point on the fact that whoever is one watch needs to understand the daggerboards. At least enough to know when to wake the captain if conditions change enough.
Due to your easy to follow, fluid delivery, I believe you would make an interesting teacher. If a catamaran doesn't have sufficient clearance between the water and the bridge deck, I think you guys will soon tire of the noise caused by water banging the bridge undersides. I too wanted a catamaran but the cost of those things I wanted in them drove me to a monohull. I don't like a fixed keel 'cause they keep one out of the shoal draft areas. A swing keel has benefits of both the fixed keel and the dagger-boards and they fit horizontally into a low hanging trunk for a draft around 3' and to about 10' with the keel swung down. The Southerly has such a keel and catamaran's should also have them. You can lower them down about a 1' to feel for obstructions too.
I like the cost & look of monohulls, but the imagined claustrophic nature with my large family aboard makes monohulls intolerable. We have 9 children. While only the younger 4 will be sailing w us when we get there, I'm sure the older 5 & grandkids would like to come by for a party / weekend on occassion.
Ryan and Jessica, you're doing a great job researching the mono-hull and multi-hull market, and going deep into specific elements, such as daggerboards. We're saving hard for a boat, too (no mean feat), so your vlogs are proving very useful. We're following you guys closely, and hope to cross routes someday!
Hi Ryan, there is also a 3rd option which does not use neither one and is imo a very good compromise. Like a Warren design or the SMG50 plus. My SMG50 plus sails quickly and very well upwind, has a low draft, a skeg and “grounding” protection bar designed to protect props and rudder from damage.
Thanks for this video. I think your point regarding the fact that cats with daggerboards are likely to be designed more for performance is an excellent one. In doing my research I really like the Catanas which are more performance oriented and appear to have narrower hulls as well as daggerboards. But I also really like the Lagoon's which have great volume but have admittedly lower performance. There is no "right" answer, the question is what is right for what you want out of your boat and your anticipated cruising profile. Let me add a couple of thoughts. Certainly daggerboards increase windward efficiency versus keels. They create more lift and have less drag than keels which helps the boat point better, have reduced leeway and go faster to weather. Indeed, with increasing speed, the apparent wind will move forward. However, this is not necessarily a negative as with increased speed and reduced leeway, it is likely that the boat will have better VMG (velocity made good) and even if the pointing angle is decreased relative to true wind, if the VMG is higher you will get to a weather destination sooner than a boat that may have a higher pointing angle but lower VMG. At face value monohulls go to weather "better" than cats because with their larger keels and underbody they create more lateral resistance than cats which don't have much hull in the water and have stubby, less hydrodynamic, keels. Daggerboards may even the difference in efficiency between the two types. The ultimate test would be the VMG, monohull vs cat (daggerboards or keels). Keels may have more displaced volume than daggerboards. While this may create more buoyancy, it doesn't necessarily mean that the boat floats higher or has more "reserve buoyancy" than the same hull shape with daggerboards. If the keels are filled with lead, they may actually create negative buoyancy. Salt water weighs 64 pounds per cubic foot. Lead weights 707 pounds per cubic foot. Every cubic foot of volume in a hull has the capacity to displace 64 pounds of water. By definition, the weight of the displaced water by the hull(s) is equal to the weight of the boat. The waterline is the line of equilibrium where the volume of displaced water equals the weight of the boat. So, for a cat with keels, vs a cat without keels and having approximately the same overall shape, even though the keels add a bit more volume to the hull, if they are filled with lead (or anything that weights more than 64 lbs/ft3) will cause the hulls to lie deeper in the water. Further, all this technical stuff aside, for roughly the same hull shape and sail plan, a heavier cat will have less performance than a lighter cat.
So...why are we talking about lead keels...on Cats...thats like an oxymoron...a total conflict in priniciples...the problem with Cats is the volume of hardware trying to push through the wind...aerodynamics calls it frontal profile & profile drag
1st time finding your channel. Good discussion especially for someone learning like me. Ruby Rose helps showing different catamarans. Your talk here shows me that keels are probably better for a long-term live aboard.
I'm a big fan of daggerboards, and feel their advantages far outweigh their disadvantages. They take up space in the hulls, but with careful planning they can be incorporated into the layout without impacting on living space. Re storms: the best solution is to avoid them, but the next best solution is a parachute anchor, which turns the bow (or stern, depending on where you deploy the anchor from) into the waves. This greatly improves ride, and greatly reduces risk. I'm not sure that asymmetrical daggerboard deployment would be a good solution.
Hi Ryan, great job covering this topic. One more pro on dagger boards. Modern designs are yielding more lift on the boards which provides better performance and motion than straight boards. Exposure of the sail drives and rudders is a key concern of mine given that I sail on the West Coast with much kelp and crab pots to snag. That said, I am currently evaluating two boats, one fixed keel and one dagger board. These are the Nautitech Open 46 and the ITA 14.99. I have talked to many owners of dagger board boats and the majority of them love having the dagger boards and would not want a boat with fixed keels. That said, owners of fixed keel boats love their fixed keels with the protection and simplicity they provide. So as you said, every boat and every design aspect is a compromise with their own pros and cons. You have to look at your requirements and go with the boat that meets them the best. Another key design difference in catamarans are the helm locations. It would be great to get your perspective on the different options. Thanks
Hey! Thanks for the comment! The helm location question is actually something I've thought alot about. But have refrained from bringing up until I do some more research. I do like a lot of the Nautitech designs but the helm seems rather exposed. As seems to be the trend with most performance oriented cats. And I have to wonder if that is a big downside when doing long passages with bad weather or at night. I would think so, but I could also see how, in practice, maybe once the sails are set that people could retreat to a more protect part of the cockpit or saloon.
Just like everything else about boats, there are strong opinions on all sides. For example, if you follow the vlog for the catamaran impi, the owners love the fly bridge of their L440. I would never consider a fly bridge boat. Both the boats that have made our short list have the twin aft helms, with a few differences. I have sailed on the L40, L450S, FP 44, Leopard 39 and 44 that all have the raised single bulk head helm position. And there are pros and cons to both helm locations. We are about to leave for a week charter on an Open 46 and this will be a good test for us to determine if the pros on the aft helm outweigh the negatives. Will let you know how we feel about this topic when we return.
That was great guys I was leaning towards fixed keels (you confirmed it for me) as I knew the fixed keels protected your engines and rudders a little more and for us living space is important. I have also liked the way you can 'carefully' sit the boat on the sand which is good for careening and nice to let the family off easily. I plan on sailing between jobs throughout the pacific and the right cat is essential for us. Well done guys thank you awesome job.
Thanks Ryan, I don't know anything about sailing. But watching your videos I've learned a lot. I think that now, I would choose the fixed keel over dagger boards. And I am and have been a big fan of Cat's. Thanks and happy and safe sailing.
Hi : as A Cat sailor of 60+ years I agree with som of your comments but there are other factors. You stated some of the obvious factors of the common Two underwater appendages that being said of KEELS & Daggerboards. We are talking about two of the 3 basic appendages omitting centerboards . Frankly, after 2 k years of sailinf all we have are basicly THREE choices? Untill Now! You need to learn about SCABBOARDS. i would love to talk to you and continue this discussion. Norman Cook RI USA
Hello: thanks for your discussion on the difference of Keels to daggerboards. However, these are only two of the Three Catagories of traditional al unerwater appendages the 3rd being Centerboards and their variations! Let alone the New 4th Catagory being SCABBOARDs !Safety must be paramount a sailing vessel ! Crew intervention prior to Collison, impacts the hull,,Board/ Foil, Trunk, & the standing rigging stresses! Let's look at all the options of SAFETY and preformanes of all the above! continue on with your presentations with a follow up discussion & the factors Great platform for benifits of all design elements, I will look to future reviews
Sailing is one of the most enjoyable elements of cruising for us. If you go cruising you will be doing a lot of sailing, I would not be happy with a boat that could only tack through 110 degrees and had generally poor sailing ability. It's not about racing, it's the delight in sailing at 6 knots in 6 knots of breeze. Chances are, your lesser performing cat with fixed stub keels will be motoring a whole lot more when the wind drops below 10knts, which is often. Daggerboards offer many advantages with some drawbacks as you have noted. If you're considering a daggerboard cat, you've probably already placed a high priority on good sailing characteristics, and with that will come compromises in load carrying and interior volume. Compromise is an inherent part of boat design.
If I could pick a teacher/professor for my kids... Someone like Ryan!!! Great comparison. Very complete. Useful info. Love the precision and the wide approach coming from his software developer/engineer background.
Nice compilation of ideas, thanks man. I've been looking and building a Richard Woods designs and most of the daggerboard boxes on the boats I'm looking at are placed between the bridgedeck and the hulls instead of thru-hull, so no extra danger of holing the hull in a grounding. That and his bridgedeck cabin/cuddy idea are two of the big things drawing me to his designs. For me there's no choice, daggerboards all the way. It's the extra configurations for storm tactics and being able to point higher, both from a safety standpoint and comfort. I feel like if I'm already building the boat, fitting LAR keels would be handy capping all my work. That's amazing that boards add so much cost. It's considered one of the more tedious tasks in a home build, but $30k? sheesh (that's about what I plan on spending to build), i'll save it for kitty, thanks. :P Keep up the videos, fun watching someone else research this crazy phenomenon. One other think Richard has said; LAR Keels add buoyancy, but it's added in the wrong places. So they can increase hobby horsing tendencies, if the boat has them.
If you ever end up on a lea shore in a seaway or trying to get to windward in a heavy sea you will want all the pointing ability you can get. Very good informative video, thanks.
Two other cons to Daggerboards worth considering are that they take up valuable liveaboard space and that in the long run, any device is susceptible to Murphy's law and the ensuing cost of repairs.
@@xlenau None, the daggers just add unnecessary to the numbers of those devices especially when considering cruising as the main use of the boat...Cats are fast enough compared to monos anyway. Narrower hulls make it even worst with the box taking place...Not my idea for fun but to each their own after all.
Nice info especially for beginners. I own a trimaran having I believe a bit of both good world's. Having a mini keel added for protection and draft going from about 2 ft to 4 feet. Also a swingkeel not a bagger board comming out of the minikeel. Swingkeel is protecting itself in the way that it will simply retract if it touches anything hard like a log or a whale. Mini keel starts at 0 forward and reaches the depth of 2 more feet so total of 4 feet draft now after about 2 feet going aft. Mini keel is foil shaped though without leading edge. Swingkeel is also foil shaped and pivots on a 5/8 SS pin. lines control swingkeel up or down. Even swingkeel is made from marine plywood and glass epoxy. Swingkeel down.gives me almost 7.ft. draft.
Thanks for the information .One point which I thought was major was the cleaning and maintenance on the daggerboards. Very good point indeed heading to Annapolis to check out some new cruisers on the 27th I will also look into the daggerboards debate cheers
I was not aware of the buoyancy issue with the dagger boards and I also didn't know about the "Hobby-Horsing" increase. Thanks for the education. I'm currently watching another channel that just bought a vessel with dagger boards and I'm curious to see just how much value they really add to the ship. I'm in the market for a cat, but, like you, had settled on the mini-keel because of the space loss, critter growth and cost. I didn't really think that would make up for the pro's. Now I'll have to watch with an increased knowledge, so I'll have to look for more issues. I'm not sure if I should thank you for that or not. ;)
Having had a Catana, we broke two dagger boards from hitting something or too much lateral stress. On our present Grainger with fixed keels we can easily beach her to change zincs or do repairs. The keels are a must in British Columbia due to floating logs that are always out there. The keels have saved us many times and never has a log touched the sail drive. Touch wood
Just a quick note... you get the 2 knots of speed down wind by pulling up the daggerboards. You get a better angle to the wind by putting them down. At the 4 minute mark, you sound like you are combining the two for better angle and faster speed. You get one or the other :)
Even if I don't own a catamaran and I don't have any experience with them I would say that probably a fixed keel one is as fast if not faster then one with dagger boards on a passage. The reason is very simple, for the same money you can get a longer fixed keel catamaran and even in some ideal situations the shorter performance oriented one will be faster on the long run it is often the longer boat that does the passage faster. I think that for those that want fun and performance a daggerboard catamaran is the better option, but probably even more important is avoid one that has hydraulic rudders that kill the sensibility when you are at the helm. If you want emotions and fun sailing there is no alternative. For those that are more cruise oriented it depends. Having less buoyancy in itself is not bad, as you actually can carry more pay load having the boat weight the same. The payload of the performance catamarans is lower, but not because they have the dagger boards, it depends on other choices, they are designed as a whole to be very light, often using mainly or partially carbon fiber, and are designed to allow only a little payload, other way their performance degrades. So the real choice is if pay less and have a slower boat that can carry more pay load, has more space, but has problems windwards and with light wind so compel you to use the engines more often or you accept to limit the weight of the things you carry with you to be able to resort to the engine less often and, why not, have some more fun when the ideal conditions for speed are there. But there is a 3rd choice, there are boats that have the right compromise between performance, space and weight, not many of them, and you pay them probably as much as the performance catamarans, they have usually dagger boards or in at least a case centerboards. Their price is in the range of the high performance boats, so they don't come cheap, but are built to be cruising boats that can perform well, not performance boats that can cruise. Now the trend is towards the performance catamarans with dagger boards, as they are cool, and there is still few to really cover the area between them and the charter oriented fixed keel boats, but I hope that in the future there will be more space for catamarans with dagger boards, that can so go upwind efficiently, but with less exasperation on performance, fast enough to don't be sitting ducks in a light breeze like some of the keel ones are, that have a little more space and payload then the actual performance oriented ones. After all every catamaran has much more space then every mono hull of the same weight or length, and they are boats, not apartments. You rightly say that everything in sailing is a compromise, but it seems to me that the real compromise is hard to find in the present catamarans, we have to choose mostly between large and slow station wagons and very fast and expensive Lamborghini sport cars, if you get what i mean, and the right compromise is hard to find on the market. Hard to find, but some producers are slowly moving in that direction.
Don't take my word for it. Look at surveys conducted by cruisers after one or two years, they pretty consistently show that performance started lower on the priority list, but after sailing for a year or two, they realize that performance equals comfort and safety. I'd refer you to Chris White's books. (His boats are for lottery winners, but the concepts are at least worth examining.) So it's not performance or cruising, it's performance AND cruising...
Interesting perspective. And maybe that's a natural progression for people. Too bad that saying tends to hold true: With regard to sailing/boats you can have performance, comfort, and a reasonable price. But you can only choose 2.
I have heard this point also but it comes down to those that have a timeline to get somewhere, what is there, what you pack and those that want to live and enjoy where they are. One cat owner I know went from keeled to dagger boards to spend less time sailing more time anchored with less weight and went back so they could have the coffee maker and other things they missed on the boat to be less dependent on onshore cafe's and topping up water.If you are going to odd places and want to take a little more gear like he did (dive tanks, extra fuel and water, air compressor, tools to repair, coffee maker, extra food and extra safety gear and people) also the last boat was stronger and more insulated as he wanted to do southern ocean and further north.Either work and both beat the rubber ducky that sits in my bath tub :)Just get the best condition boat you can afford and do the maintenance or get something you know where the work is needed, budget for someone else to do the work and do some of it yourself (pay when you are sick of being dirty).
If budget is a consideration... have you considered building your own? You'll get a more modern design, and save about half the cost in actual cash outlay. But its' a HUGE commitment, and will take about 2 - 3 years of full time work. You'll also need a place to build it, which can add to the cost. However, if you've not considered it, you might take a look at designs by Bruce Schionning (Australia) and Kurt Hughes (USA). Both produce heart stoppingly beautiful designs, and a 40 foot boat can be built for 200 - 300K.
Not all fixed keel production catamarans have weight bearing keels that can be beached. Some are externally tabbed onto the boat. Don’t assume you can beach one or you might be surprised :) Also, people beach certain types of daggerboard cats all of the time. Misleading dichotomy IMO. Good luck finding your boat! We are also cat shopping for our next cruising boat !
How about a center-mounted pivoting board (centerboard)? It offers protection against grounding, doesn't intrude on interior space and can be configured to a deeper draft, improving efficiency. It could be nominally out of the water when retracted. However, I don't know of any catamarans made with this feature.
The reality however of owning a cat is that even though they can be beached you try and avoid this at all costs as antifouling and sand dont go well together which just means more work down the line is scrubbig the hulls, best to avoid beaching if you can.
Very interesting. I have sailed a daggerboard cat for many many years, albeit only a 7m Hirondelle (camping in a boat) I've sail the Irish sea and sailed all the 5 kingdoms therein (Wales,Ireland, England, IOM, and Scotland) We never had the hobby horse effect, so I assume you are correct in your remarks. As to the boards hitting objects, that happens, our boards were 1.5" hardwood and plenty of chunks were removed but the trunks always remained solid. As to beaching, we did that all the time as we were use to 10m tides (we were far too poor for them fancy marinas and gin palaces) Our rudders also came up as well. The rudders also hit objects (3/4" ply) we lost two in one event, after they broke the tops then just fell into the sea leaving us steering by outboard until we jury rigged some. We finally lost her after hitting something underwater in a F8. The poor helicopter chap came down by wire but had to leave after 20 minutes aboard after turning green (yes your skin takes on a green hue) There was reserve buoyancy so we didn't leave the boat, thought we got a bit damp 10 miles out off the Welsh coast (never get off your boat at sea unless it is tilted 45º and you are stepping off the stern) I found your appraisal very honest and well thought out giving keels and daggers a good airing. I myself would pick the daggers for the fun and excitement even though I only cruised but I got to places where those half boat fear to tread. Having said that I wouldn't argue with your choice as it suits your dreams. Keep up the good work
I had a look at Daggerboard Cats and they seem to be built for speed. This means that the interiors are lacking, less space overall. I don't think you will find big Cats with Daggerboards on. Dazcat and Catana use Daggerboards, probably other Cats but those are the two I looked at.
"Less buoyancy" is not a direct consequence of having daggerboards instead of a keel, but rather one of having a performance cat. That's because performance cats are generally more sensitive to added weight. More precisely, it's about their hull shape in the vicinity of the waterline and about their lighter displacement. You've said it well in the beginning of your video: Daggerboards-based cats are generally more performance oriented, and a lot of other design elements come with that.
This is really good information, I am in the market for a boat, and I am trying to decide what to buy or build. I am leaning towards building my own aluminum sailing catamaran. I am a mechanical engineer, and I own a metal fabrication business. I have been designing a pneumatic or hydraulic deployed daggerboard that I can control from the helm. Iam currently designing a hybrid propulsion system utilizing 2 small gas turbine engines with retracting electric pods.
Good video, but a major pro for minikeels is the option to careen the boat on a beach to do maintenance that would otherwise need to be done in dry dock.
Thank you for your videos, I want you to know that I appreciate your work in creating them. i live in Houston, and just took my family to the boat show in Kemah a couple of weeks ago. I think walking around on a new FP Lucia 40 finally got my wife to seriously consider a lifestyle change on land to realize the dream of sail life at some point in the future. If I were to purchase a new cat right now, I would look at the Fountaine Pajots. They seem to be the best value catamarans in my opinion. Best of luck to you guys!
Oh cool, we almost went to the Kemah show but the 3hr drive persuaded us against it. Kinda wish we had gone though. But yeah the new generation of FP's definitely seemed to have stepped up their game. If we were shopping for a new boat, they would be a very strong contender for us.
What if a fixed keel had a 'fan-like' extended keel that could be folded up or down depending on sailing requirements? Just a thought, I might be out of my depth here.lol
Thanks Ryan. Another excellent video!!! ! am also wondering which cat to buy and your research is extremely helpful. In fact your videos provide more useful and practical information than most other sources.
There is another point relating to daggerboard equipped cats. Since they are, on the whole, lighter and faster they will accelerate quicker down swells. That sounds good on the surface, but for those onboard the constant acceleration and deceleration can be physically exhausting and potentially dangerous. So, not only does it create a less comfortable ride, but there is a very real risk of injury being slammed side to side or fore and aft. Fixed keel cats, on the other hand, are slower and because they are slower to react to wave forces they offer a steadier and safer ride, albeit a less thrilling ride. The ultimate safety device you can have onboard is a rational and safety conscious captain. What we all hope is that when he errs he errs on the side of caution. But, sometimes there can be circumstances at sea where no matter how experienced or salty the captain might be the boat and crew can still be put in peril. The Jordan Series Drogue is a piece of emergency gear that will absolutely save your life when all other hope is lost and the captain and crew are at the end of their proverbial ropes. Just know that before the praying begins there really is something you can do if you've given it enough forethought and preparation. I'm talking about hurricanes and lesser storms that can and do kill people at sea and can turn your beautiful luxury sailboat into flotsam. Personally, I would never attempt a transoceanic crossing without one. The Jordan Series Drogue was designed by a NASA engineer back in the 1960's and you could literally go through a Cat 5 hurricane with 100 foot swells without fear of life or limb. In the history of its existence not a single life or a single penny of property has been lost due to major storm wind or waves. Deploying a JSD before the real teeth of the storm hits is your literal guarantee of survival. Those claims, btw, are not mine, but rather those of the company that makes and sells JSD's. They say that after a deployment riding out a major storm becomes a benign event and you never feel threatened. You simply go to bed knowing that when you wake up the next day your boat's position will have changed by 3-5 miles and that you and your boat will not be the worst for wear. Riding out a hurricane or tropical storm with a JSD is said to be like riding an elevator up and down as the swells and breaking seas flow under the keel(s) of your sailing vessel. Read everything at the link I'm providing and educate yourself while keeping an open mind. And if you don't believe their story at JSD then maybe you'll believe the objective testing results obtained by the US Coast Guard and their subsequent endorsement. Captains tend to become creatures of habit and tradition. That kind of subtle arrogance can lead to unnecessary danger on the open water. The correct perspective with respect to the JSD is to think of it as the sailboat equivalent of a fighter pilot's ejection seat. It's the ultimate and final barrier between you and certain death. Here's the link. www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/
Thanks for the support! It was kind of an experiment on how difficult they'd be to add. We probably won't ever get to fancy with animations, but I'll probably do more of it in the future. I like being able to demonstrate the concept with the images so that people who are really new to all of this can better follow along.
@ Jessica and Ryan Adventures Ryan, great informative video, thanks. I am looking into putting dagger-boards on my cat that I'm drawing up plans for now. I've been thinking about using linear actuators that stroke either a 40" or 48" & also have the dagger-board only retract where there is still 24" acting as a keel.& at total extension it would be 72" lower than the base of the pontoon. The actuators are about $560 AUD & I plan to have them connected up remotely. Mark, Perth, Western Australia
great job ,covered pro s and con s equally. how bout compare chinese sails to western,...speed,square footage,ease of operation, initial cost and maintenance,...i'm designing and building so all options are still on the table .solved the dagger board issue,for me,...a single centerline foiled daggerboard/rudder with sheer pin pivot for groundings or logs. and twin outboards tucked up under the aft belly 2foot outta the water for sailing.sure would appreciate a response,..thanks
Definitely interesting video. I’m interested in the seawind 1190 cruise with daggers, removable rudders, and outboards. Obviously a pretty specific scenario, but can get down to 1’9” which is appealing. Right now my draft is 6’ on my mono hull so have plenty of time to dream while I save up for my adventures.
We bought an 1190 for this exact reason togther with the slightly lighter carbon contruction there is a niticable boost over the otherwise very similar 1160 mini keel. Very happy with our choice
You make a good case for sticking with keels but I would be keen to see if it was possible (not available right now as far as I am aware) of having retractable foils retrofitted and get the best of both. They have the ability to sail/fly up to 1.8x speed of the wind when deployed, more stable and less pitching. Manual control of the foils works but computer control would give more options dependant on conditions present.
Great job as per usual you two, it's one of those things I've been scratching my head over. Like you I'd be more inclined towards fixed keel, only problem is, and I know it's a bit of sentimental idiocy. I'm a Kiwi overstayer, but Australia has been my home for well over half my life and it's looked after me and treated me well, as such I'd like my cat to be Australian designed and owned. There are only two choices really, seawind and lightwave. This is where my conundrum comes into play, I REALLY like lightwave cats, but everyone I have looked at has a single daggerboard, for bluewater cruising is that daggerboard gonna really be an advantage or detriment ? Thoughts ?
Thank you Ryan. I see that this was posted 5 years ago, so facts might have changed. The main point that you made is that a dagger board cost 30 to 35,000 more. This would make the decision for most recreational sailors. They can get a fixed keel and a pickup truck, or thay can get a dagger board. We have to blame the boat manufacturers for this. Granted they have to recoup their cost for the mold change, but $30,000 more for boat is ridiculous. I think that if the cost was $3,000 more, which it should be, everyone would choose a dagger board. It's just a more efficient wing. Like on an airplane, you can have a short fat wing with lots of camber, which is very inefficient, or you can have a long thinner wing like on a sail plane, which is very efficient. And the argument about a fixed keel being safer when you run your boat into sand is really irrelevant. If you're going to run a $300,000 boat into sand, you really shouldn't have bought the boat. Plus when you're running, which is the worst wind, you can pull your dagger board up.
I know this is a bit late but my experience on a cat with daggerboards is that they also move around in the casing which causes loud knocking at night if not at a totally still anchorage. We chocked them as much as possible at the deck level but it was impossible to remove entirely.
Hmmm .. While Catamarans are nice and allow more in the way of living space.. I'll take a Trimaran all day over a Cat. Trimarans also point much better into the wind ... Trimarans are also a lot more predictable when things get out of shape. .. Cats not so much .. Again, living space has always been a drawback however (There a few exceptions) Trimarans are generally much faster at tacking/gybing etc.. Trimarans only need/use 1 motor vs two.. Mostly Trimarans behave a lot more like a monohull making them much easier to sail. The obvious advantages of a trimaran over a catamaran that I see are: - Central structure to take rig loads - Shallower righting moment curve might be more forgiving for shorthanded offshore work allowing the boat to be pushed harder - Central structure accommodates greater overall beam for increased righting moment - Central hull has more rocker and lower prismatic coefficient than floats making for better light-wind performance when sailing on the center hull
Thank you Im glad I learn something new no I will get a fixed keel another thing can you make a video on why do cats flip over and how to stop this I thinking of getting a cat because of safety reason but dont want to flip over is this more of a sail thing or is it the hull thank you
after 14 yrs living on a catamaran I have a lot to add to this discussion. I have shaft drives,these are far far far far better than any saildrives. I have kick up rudders and Dagger boards. I live on the beach half the time, I am always drying out in those little hidey holes in paradise, like hill inlet in the whitsundays , google it. my boards take up an extra 2 inches on the front of my hanging space, the board cases form the side of my hanging space so it is only the width of the case that you lose, in my case around 2 inches. saildrives are an absolute nightmare. The only people that like saildrives are the builders who make much more profit by reducing labour costs on the install however you will pay for their extra profits for the life of the boat. My anodes are 6 dollars each, saildrives ones can be up to 160 dollars each and they last the same amount of time roughly depending on several factors like dissimilar metals under the water, and wiring issues, such as grounding plates for hf radios etc. I recently bought different propellors to change pitch they cost 400 dollars each for my 44 foot catamaran. price saildrives props yourself and you'll see what I mean. The saildrives are sent to the factory on a fibreglass plinth and they simply glass it into the bottom of the hull. no need to build engine beds and shaft logs and cutlass bearings and shaft seals. that takes time and money but it is a much more reliable system if done correctly. don't believe me go and check out any commercial fishing vessel that makes a living working day in day out and tries to keep maintenance costs to a minimum. let me know if you find any saildrives I will be very surprised. The mini keel design is a necessity in saildrive boats to protect the saildrive leg from damage. A few things not mentioned I recently delivered a production cat for an insurance company where despite the use of a bridal and correct anchoring technique the anchor chain caught on the sloped rear edge of the mini keel, a feat I would not have thought possible, and cut through the keel in 24 hours. the keel was torn completely off. I have heard of this happening to three boats now and it generally occurs in wind against tide situations. Mini keel boats sail up over the anchor from tack to tack and generate larger forces on your ground tackle and tend to pull anchor more often. I assume it is at the end of one of these tacks when the anchor chain is pulled tight in between the hulls that it hooks on the keel. It probably falls back off a thousand times but each time puts a little more damage on the back of the mini keel until it eventually creates a slot that it can hook into. Mini keel boats tend to drag anchor a lot more than Dagger board boats. A friend of mine with a lagoon and Volvo saildrives has to lap the cone clutches every 100 hours. that is ridiculous. You have to use different antifouls as you have aluminium permanently immersed under the water with a sail drive so you have two types of antifouls on your boat. I draw around 18 to 20 inches of water and that let's me go almost anywhere. A Dagger board boat with saildrives is just stupid, there's no other way to describe it. you have all the disadvantages and none of the advantages of either type. Mini keels create a lot more drag and so do saildrives. We sail at windspeed or better up to around 7 knots of wind that means we hardly ever motor anywhere, we can do this because we have boards and kick up rudders. every anchorage we go into we see the mini keel boats sailing up on there anchors and taking up a Lot of space in anchorages because of it. They also anchor in amongst the monos so it's pretty tight out there some times. we on the other hand are in a shallow part of the anchorage or up inside a shallow inlet on a sandbar and nobody can drag onto us as they will be well and truly aground before they get to us. we always have plenty of room. Our boat has very little pitching as we have a lot less rocker and a higher prismatic coefficient, look it up. this also means we have better distribution of buoyancy and a kinder motion at sea. the lagoons etc are incredibly heavy, my 44ft cat weighs under 4000 kilograms around 8000 pounds check the weight on a similar size lagoon. I have one toilet to fix not 4. I have no heavy moulded liners and mdf and chipboard cupboards etc etc. A production boat looks nice but is way heavy and a lot of them are built from balsa and polyester resins. this is a rot box disaster waiting to happen. hope you like fixing rot if you buy one of these. I am a boat builder and designer and have a lot of experience in this area, my advice is don't ever buy a french production boat fullstop. You can contact me via my youtube video, search for magic carpet 3.5 with a 3 hp, if you want to know more. these guys have done a lot of homework and put together a great site, I hope you have a great trip and your boat goes well for you. There is a lot more to discuss about first time catamaran choices, most french production cats are sold into the charter industry where they are restricted to near shore semi protected waters and are sold off after their service life comes to an end. this is why they dominate the used boat market. they are all about looks and accomodation. You have to squeeze the maximum number of people into the boat to make the charter more affordable for everyone and of course you need your own ensuite. I personally would avoid all ex charter boats like the plague. They are extremely heavy and must therefore carry huge rigs/sail area to have even mediocre performance. For example last year we had a race with a Dagger board so called performance catana 45 footer, one of the new "lightweight carbon" ones. We pulled anchor 15 minutes after the race started and beat them over the finish line by 5 minutes for an elaped time of 56 minutes. needless to say the broker with his go fast crew and the client interested in the boat wasn't impressed we were more than 30 percent faster than their so called performance boat and we were in full cruising trim dinghy kayaks Genset the lot. There boat was brand new and empty. In the same conditions the only time a production boat gets near us is in 4 knots of breeze and we are sailing and they are motoring. In saying all that we have the accomodation of a 35 foot lagoon in a 44ft boat. Cheers
Great info and discussion, thanks for doing the research on this very important topic for a prospective buyers...really getting a lot of knowledge from your videos...
I think you covered it pretty well.Though I would add each cat has a designed displacement, so with or without mini keels this this displacement should not be exceeded. Having extra bouyancy doesn't mean it can carry more weight. More weight = more load on everything.. So be careful, an overloaded cat can break...... Cheers Russell.
Great video thanks. Have you covered Catamaran lengths in any videos? Id like to know how smaller vs larger Cats handle bad weather in a world cruising application. Eg would a 42" Lagoon be more work to keep safe in bad weather vs a 52"?
Also knowing how to tune a daggerboard to the situation you are sailing inn. The biggest drawback daggerboards leave your rudders exposed to damage of drifting debris.
Cat manufacturers do not make performance cats with fixed keels. For this reason you can gain much more performance by going to a daggerboard boat, more than 2 knots. If you were to compare the same boats with the 2 systems then 2 knots might be the approximate advantage but in reality daggerboard boats are much faster. In certain conditions 20 knots for the daggerboard boat and 10 knots for the fixed keels.
We will be closing soon on our cat with keels. Dager boats are a lot more work, and much harder to short hand sail. Also the up keep can run a lot of money.
Yeah, the topic of bridge deck clearance could be a whole video by itself. I'm not aware of any correlation between bridge deck height and daggerboards. I was under the impression that it was something that varied by boat builder and model. But that's a good question to explore. eg: Why do some builds make cats with seemingly very low bridge deck clearance?
Have you considered buying a lagoon 38 or the 39 second hand? They can come cheap, and I heard they're great to circumnavigate ... what do you think of those boats? ( and no, I'm affiliated to lagoon at all, just curious about yr opinion on them).... cheers guys
We have definitely considered them, for our price range and personal preferences we favor the 40'-ish range of Lagoons. So a 380 and 39 definitely fall into that category. Other options being the 400 and 410. The 42, 420 and 440 are probably to expensive for us but are also nice boats that we considered.
Hi Ryan, I'm considering buying an Alibi 54 for long journeys across pacific ocean. choose alibi because it should be as fast as a performance cat such as a gunboat and yet its not carbon and therefore half the price, plus just about everything under the alibi cat is retractable, and its propeller generates power under sail. the other choice is to go with upmost safety, and that is the Garcia exploration 52, all aluminum, heavy and slow, but much safer. however with a hull speed of 9 something, I suspect the Garcia will only cruise at 7........ crawling in the ocean...... what do you think about the two boats? plz consider both new builds, I bought two used yachts and I'm heartbroken about used boats. thank you so much
Enjoy the videos. All of this is theoretical, and opinionated information for everyone until they actually follow the dream and spend time hoisting sails. Its extremely intelligent to do extensive research. But at the end of the day the knowledge gained from the experience sailing will open your eyes, and make your decision on what boat you and your significant other will actually enjoy, for intended purpose.
Based on all this why don't we see more performance/cruising cats with hydrofoils built in? Aside from cost, which should come down as the tech becomes standard wouldn't the performance be significantly better in all circumstances?
Thanks for the research. It was helpful, even though I had already crossed dagger-boards off my list (I had a "shorter pro's & con's list" than you did. Your list was just more complete! Do you know of any website that talks about maintenance cost of the various makes and sizes. I know the bigger the boat the more the maintenance cost, but what is the difference in cost? If boat A had a higher maintenance cost than boat B, even though boat A has a lower purchase price it might not be the best deal. Thanks again on your research.
Its a good question. And from what I can see no one seems to have a good answer. I think it's highly variable on how much work you're willing/able to do yourself. But I do see your point. If boat A is built very sturdily for blue water cruising in bad weather, then it will cost more, but potentially have less problems. But boat B that was built for weekend use near the shore might cost you a lot in maintenance as it's built more flimsily. For us, I try to see if models we're interested in are being used for world cruising. And if so, are people complaining about a higher than normal upkeep. But to be honest, with regard to catamarans, I've not heard to much about one cat being way more work than a similar sized cat. Somepeople have said that with regard to the big 3 production catamaran builders. Leopards hold up best, with Lagoons being a close second and FP being third. But the new FPs seem to be much better built, so that may be changing. Because of this I try to compare models of boats more than brands.
Thanks for the feed back! 👍👍👍👍 Two other ares I'm keeping my eye on are vertical wing sails and the use of electric motors. The technology is really making improvements that they've started doing long range cruising with electric motors (maybe with a small generator for backup). I think it's an area to keep an on as technology continues to make improvements and lowers the cost in these areas.
Both are cool technologies and may be more common in sailing in the future. Electric motors and batteries are more energy efficient than fossil fuels and will give cleaner and quieter miles. They can be charged from shore power or recharged from a generator, as you note. They can even be charged from solar or wind given enough time or area for solar panels or windmill blades. Wingsails may eventually transition from racing into the mainstream. They too can be more efficient than conventional sails. In many ways they're simpler. In some ways using them is more complex. Beneteau is experimenting with a soft wingsail that's like a partially double-skinned cloth sail with curved, wing shaped battens. It can be reefed by lowering the sailcloth, just like a regular sail.
I have a question about bridge height. It looks like a lot of the heavier, charter style catamarans tend to have lower bridge decks. I have also heard a lot of complaints about waves hitting the low bridge decks and causing anything from uncomfortable feelings to loud noises to damage.
Matthew Wright I sailed Leopard and Lagoon. The first one is considerably lower than the second. There are pluses and minuses of each design, however since Lagoon is taller it is less comfortable in maneuvering under strong the side wind. In big chop Lagoon is a bit more comfortable, however I'd think that it has less stability than Leopard, since its center of mass is higher.
One with the daggerboard catamaran and fixed keel catamaran dont have same hull structure daggerboard catamaran hull are narrower and also much lighter
Excellent summary. However I would point out you are perpetuating the myth that light displacement boats are not as good weight carriers as heavy displacement boats (particulary as regard to monohulls) when in fact they are superior. In a simplistic nutshell it takes more weight to depress the light displacement hull say an inch than it does the heavy displacement hull. You can simply illustrate this by considering the amidships cross sections of heavy and light displacement hulls. As the typical light displacement hull is depressed it gains significantly more “inwater" volume than a typical heavy displacement hull.
I think I see what you're saying.. as you say it would depend on the hull design and how much it flares out. Also like you said I could see it being more relevant for monohulls as cats hulls tend to "straighten up" fairy quickly
wow! good info! I will put you on my playlist for the sailing class ; if that is ok? Nice work btw; and thank you for making my life better. John the LImo drver from Kansas city
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Thanks for doing my retirement catamaran purchase planning for me. You are narrowing down my choices.
Regarding beaching or running aground with a daggerboard raised. Catana's have a type of mini skeg that supports the shaft drive and protects the rudder and allows it to be beached. Other brands may have something similar. Also the daggerboard is made to break in case of severe impact to protect the hull and casing. Much cheaper to replace the daggerboard, which you can't do with a catamaran with keels.
Watched your video two times more and have read ALL the comments again!
Surprised you have not inquired of my comments on the advancement on SCABBOARDS! After centuries of just THREE choices: keels , daggerboards
& centerboards it's about time that we finally have a technical improvement for a lateral resistant underwater appendage
SCABBOARDS offer superb advantage of
Blade/ foil design. They maintain their cross-section regardless of their draft unlike centerboards or fixed keels. Also, unlike dagger board SCABBOARDS can
automatically retreat upon contact with a submerged object, reef or beach. The issue with keels and daggerboards is that having an impact can significantly
Damage not only by breaching the hull causing sinking but exert violent slaming
of the standing rig in forward rotation.
SCABBOARDS are different than either daggerboards or keels in that they are designed to automatically withdraw thus not needing crew intervention to respond
to impending unseen hazard, such as on autopilot and more cruising. SCABBOARDS utilize a trunk much like a dagger board ( only nominally larger) and do not require addition of a crash box. Neither do SCABBOARDS have to be designed to shear off upon impact for safety ( requiring spares on board).
SABBOARDS do not have to be raised above deck and yet can be serviced on deck unlike centerboards which are mounted under the waterline in a LARGE open slot ( induced drag). Likewise, as a centerboard rotated on it's nominal bearing point/pin and as it does so it loses any relationship of a proper foil shape as well as moving center of effort
SCABBOARDS do not rotate aft, rather they lift vertically as struck. SCABBOARDS are a 4th generation of
appendage unlike any other variant of existing sailboat design.
I would love to have an opportunity to discuss this variant, I can be reached at
Njsea7@gmail.com
@Jessica and Ryan Adventures
I find that 6 years later some catamaran builders answered all your cons with heavily constructed dabberboard boxes, reinforce hulls, reinforced removable kick up rudders ect. You probably get some video traction with an update to this video! This video here was thoroughly explained. Thank you!
As the owner of a 40' cat with dagger boards, I would not have it any other way. We sail 10-15 degs higher than fixed keel boats--we did this weekend racing against a Seawind 1250 and a 13m FP Orana. We came from behind and sailed well above them and were doing 3-4 knots more--this was in 10-12 knots of wind.
We sail as high if not higher than any of the good monos around. This is why boards make a boat a delight to sail--especially up wind.
Yes there is a significant safety factor in being able to get away from weather systems and sail off a lee shore--this is a significant issue
Weight has nothing to do with daggerboards/keels. This depends on the waterline/beam length ratio--a lower ratio the more weight and of course the slower the boat.
Yes, keep the boards down so the engines and rudders are protected.
We built furniture and storage around the cases--them taking up room is a totally insignificant issue.
Yes Boards are more expensive, that's why the charter boats don't have them
No stuff does not grow in the cases--10 years on the water and there has been no problem with 'critters'. It's way faster to clean the case (without removing the boards) than it is to antifoul two keels
Yes there is some more know how in how to sail with them but it's not difficult
Beaching is just fine with boards, I beach mine regularly
If your rudders are not strong enough to handle boards being in the wrong position, you have a real problem with your rudders--we have never noticed them loading up significantly and when cruising we don't pay them a lot of attention and the autopilot is usually doing all the steering.
We are cruisers an are not constantly tweaking, we just like sailing well.
If you like sailing you'll be bored to tears with keels and you'll have to use your engine a whole lot more--from my perspective, this takes a lot of the fun away from why we're out there.
Hey Philip, thanks for the comment and perspective. Interesting to hear critters don't grow in the cases for you. Just curious, do you think this is because you take better than average care of it? Or do you think that folks who do have problems with growth in the cases might be taking less that average care of them?
Also, when you beach, do you end up with weight on the rudders? Or is the natural slope of the beach enough to keep them safe? Or something else?
We only pull the boat out of the water once every 16-18 months--in fact it's happening this weekend. The cases were extremely well built and are a snug fit around the boards where they exit the hull so there is very little space for anything to grow--also we push antifoul paint as far up there as we can with a brush. Finally the boards are antifouled for the first 400mm so that may put things off as well. The other safety factor is that each board has a sacrificial end that is designed to break off if we hit anything hard. When beaching yes the boat sits on the rudders but they are built to manage this and there is no issue. This allows me to service the engines and clean the waterline--however we can't antifoul the hulls as they sit too much on the sand. I carefully inspect the area for rocks etc before I put the boat there and make sure that waves can't hit the boat. Certainly, in Australia, there are stories of keels having structural issues when they are put on the slip, one keel broke clean off and others have struggled to hold the weight of the boat, often due to them not being aligned with bulkheads etc--a friend of mine used to own a slip way that specialised in cats and he has horror stories.
Hi Phil, I enjoyed this video and appreciate your real-life feedback. I am researching for the kind of Catamaran to build and another video by Tim Weston who built Tokyo Express educated me on the merits of Daggerboard design. Wondering if you have seen Tim’s videos.
I would like to be able to communicate with you directly if that is fine. Kindly tell me how I can do that directly. Would want to be cruising in 4 years when I hit 60. Thank you
In some ways this topic can be related to your primary motivation for purchasing a cat. If the reason was because they go fast, then you likely want dagger boards, any other reason, mini keels are probably the way to go.
There is also the glass half full/empty argument:
A friend of mine thinks dagger boards are something else to worry about, whereas I think of them as something else to play with.
Excellent presentation ! Easy for beginners to understand and very well organized. Good job. I would choose daggerboards for the safety of sailing near a lee shore and the increased speed.
I like the very correct way that you say, "when" you ground, and not "if" you ground. Although I sail a monohull, I have gotten out of trouble a couple of times by immediately going into reverse - you can't really do that if your propeller and rudder is already buried in mud/sand.
Ah good point! Didn't even think about that. Thanks for sharing!
When we are sailing shallow waters we keep the boards down a foot deeper than the rudders, then if we hit the bottom and stop we just lift them a bit and back off, it's pretty easy...
Nice comparison.
I like you pos an cons. Overall clear message. Very useful
Some remarks about the cons:
- Grounding is a matter of navigation for sure at high speed.
- All systems that you are using wrongly will have disadvantages.
Again nicely done.
Excellent summary Ryan. I thought I might contribute a couple of missed points. As a Daggerboard Pro, they will tack and gybe much faster than a deep or long fixed keel. As a Con, when downwind or a bit off and the boards are up, I find the boat hobby-horses a bit more than I would expect. Another point - the fixed keels often have a considerable amount of lead in them, sort of refuting the buoyancy argument. My take: If you are crossing oceans, the make a lot of difference. If you are cruising through the virgins, not worth the headaches. In between, make the call on performance.
As my grandpa said "if we all liked the same thing, I'd have had to join a line to date grandma."
Make your mind up and learn to love what you're committed to!
This was excellent, excellent, excellent. You cleared up a lot of my questions regarding daggerboards vs. fixed keels on cats. Obviously, I intend to buy a cat too, but never was quite clear on all the differences. You do a fabulous job at researching these things and it's very, very helpful. Regarding the t-shirts, I received mine and I LOVE it! So soft and it fits well. Thanks again....Peace & fair winds
Glad you liked the video and the shirt! Thanks so much for your support, it certainly helps! :)
Kia E. Gardner which of the two options are you leaning toward to?
Well explained Ryan. For all of the reasons you said: More space inside, generally beamier hulls with more interior volume, more weight capacity, more simple to sail with, able to ground your boat on a beach etc, etc, Janice and I are certain that we do not want a Cat with daggerboards. We, like you want to live on our Cat and having lots of stuff on board is bound to happen. Plus I am sure when Janice is on watch she will not want to think about if the daggerboards should be higher or lower. A fixed keep boat is just so much more simple to sail and has a lot of pros over a daggerboard boat. Well presented by you. I agree with you too that the perceived speed improvement of a daggerboard boat may be slightly overstated because those with daggerboards then to be longer, slimmer performance hulls so they have that going for them as well as the daggerboards when it comes to total speed while sailing.
Thanks! Good point on the fact that whoever is one watch needs to understand the daggerboards. At least enough to know when to wake the captain if conditions change enough.
Due to your easy to follow, fluid delivery, I believe you would make an interesting teacher. If a catamaran doesn't have sufficient clearance between the water and the bridge deck, I think you guys will soon tire of the noise caused by water banging the bridge undersides. I too wanted a catamaran but the cost of those things I wanted in them drove me to a monohull. I don't like a fixed keel 'cause they keep one out of the shoal draft areas. A swing keel has benefits of both the fixed keel and the dagger-boards and they fit horizontally into a low hanging trunk for a draft around 3' and to about 10' with the keel swung down. The Southerly has such a keel and catamaran's should also have them. You can lower them down about a 1' to feel for obstructions too.
I like the cost & look of monohulls, but the imagined claustrophic nature with my large family aboard makes monohulls intolerable. We have 9 children. While only the younger 4 will be sailing w us when we get there, I'm sure the older 5 & grandkids would like to come by for a party / weekend on occassion.
Ryan and Jessica, you're doing a great job researching the mono-hull and multi-hull market, and going deep into specific elements, such as daggerboards. We're saving hard for a boat, too (no mean feat), so your vlogs are proving very useful. We're following you guys closely, and hope to cross routes someday!
Sharing some of our research, hope it helps some of you! For those already in the know, what'd we miss?
full of valid points.
Hi Ryan, there is also a 3rd option which does not use neither one and is imo a very good compromise. Like a Warren design or the SMG50 plus. My SMG50 plus sails quickly and very well upwind, has a low draft, a skeg and “grounding” protection bar designed to protect props and rudder from damage.
Thanks for this video. I think your point regarding the fact that cats with daggerboards are likely to be designed more for performance is an excellent one. In doing my research I really like the Catanas which are more performance oriented and appear to have narrower hulls as well as daggerboards. But I also really like the Lagoon's which have great volume but have
admittedly lower performance. There is no "right" answer, the question is what is right for what you want out of your boat and your anticipated cruising profile.
Let me add a couple of thoughts. Certainly daggerboards increase windward efficiency versus keels. They create more lift and have less drag than keels which helps the boat point better, have reduced leeway and go faster to weather. Indeed, with increasing speed, the apparent wind will move forward. However, this is not necessarily a negative as with increased speed and reduced leeway, it is likely that the boat will have better VMG (velocity made good) and even if the pointing angle is decreased relative to true wind, if the VMG is higher you will get to a weather destination sooner than a boat that may have a higher pointing angle but lower VMG.
At face value monohulls go to weather "better" than cats because with their larger keels and underbody they create more lateral resistance than cats which don't have much hull in the water and have stubby, less hydrodynamic, keels. Daggerboards may even the difference in efficiency between the two types. The ultimate test would be the VMG, monohull vs cat (daggerboards or keels).
Keels may have more displaced volume than daggerboards. While this may create more buoyancy, it doesn't necessarily mean that the boat floats higher or has more "reserve buoyancy" than the same hull shape with daggerboards. If the keels are filled with lead, they may actually create negative buoyancy. Salt water weighs 64 pounds per cubic foot. Lead weights 707 pounds per cubic foot. Every cubic foot of volume in a hull has the capacity to displace 64 pounds of water. By definition, the weight of the displaced water by the hull(s) is equal to the weight of the boat. The waterline is the line of equilibrium where the volume of displaced water equals the weight of the boat. So, for a cat with keels, vs a cat without keels and having approximately the same overall shape, even though the keels add a bit more volume to the hull, if they are filled with lead (or anything that weights more than 64 lbs/ft3) will cause the hulls to lie deeper in the water. Further, all this technical stuff aside, for roughly the same hull shape and sail plan, a heavier cat will have less performance than a lighter cat.
So...why are we talking about lead keels...on Cats...thats like an oxymoron...a total conflict in priniciples...the problem with Cats is the volume of hardware trying to push through the wind...aerodynamics calls it frontal profile & profile drag
You don't put lead in catamaran keels now, do you?
Stay away from Lagoons, a lot of issues. Just my two cents
1st time finding your channel. Good discussion especially for someone learning like me. Ruby Rose helps showing different catamarans. Your talk here shows me that keels are probably better for a long-term live aboard.
I'm a big fan of daggerboards, and feel their advantages far outweigh their disadvantages. They take up space in the hulls, but with careful planning they can be incorporated into the layout without impacting on living space. Re storms: the best solution is to avoid them, but the next best solution is a parachute anchor, which turns the bow (or stern, depending on where you deploy the anchor from) into the waves. This greatly improves ride, and greatly reduces risk. I'm not sure that asymmetrical daggerboard deployment would be a good solution.
I agree. Why would anyone want to take a heavy sea to the beam anyway?
Hi Ryan, great job covering this topic. One more pro on dagger boards. Modern designs are yielding more lift on the boards which provides better performance and motion than straight boards. Exposure of the sail drives and rudders is a key concern of mine given that I sail on the West Coast with much kelp and crab pots to snag. That said, I am currently evaluating two boats, one fixed keel and one dagger board. These are the Nautitech Open 46 and the ITA 14.99. I have talked to many owners of dagger board boats and the majority of them love having the dagger boards and would not want a boat with fixed keels. That said, owners of fixed keel boats love their fixed keels with the protection and simplicity they provide. So as you said, every boat and every design aspect is a compromise with their own pros and cons. You have to look at your requirements and go with the boat that meets them the best.
Another key design difference in catamarans are the helm locations. It would be great to get your perspective on the different options. Thanks
Hey! Thanks for the comment! The helm location question is actually something I've thought alot about. But have refrained from bringing up until I do some more research. I do like a lot of the Nautitech designs but the helm seems rather exposed. As seems to be the trend with most performance oriented cats. And I have to wonder if that is a big downside when doing long passages with bad weather or at night. I would think so, but I could also see how, in practice, maybe once the sails are set that people could retreat to a more protect part of the cockpit or saloon.
Just like everything else about boats, there are strong opinions on all sides. For example, if you follow the vlog for the catamaran impi, the owners love the fly bridge of their L440. I would never consider a fly bridge boat. Both the boats that have made our short list have the twin aft helms, with a few differences. I have sailed on the L40, L450S, FP 44, Leopard 39 and 44 that all have the raised single bulk head helm position. And there are pros and cons to both helm locations. We are about to leave for a week charter on an Open 46 and this will be a good test for us to determine if the pros on the aft helm outweigh the negatives. Will let you know how we feel about this topic when we return.
That was great guys I was leaning towards fixed keels (you confirmed it for me) as I knew the fixed keels protected your engines and rudders a little more and for us living space is important. I have also liked the way you can 'carefully' sit the boat on the sand which is good for careening and nice to let the family off easily. I plan on sailing between jobs throughout the pacific and the right cat is essential for us. Well done guys thank you awesome job.
Thanks Ryan, I don't know anything about sailing. But watching your videos I've learned a lot. I think that now, I would choose the fixed keel over dagger boards. And I am and have been a big fan of Cat's. Thanks and happy and safe sailing.
Hi : as A Cat sailor of 60+ years I agree with som of your comments but there are other factors. You stated some of the obvious factors of the common Two underwater appendages that being said of KEELS & Daggerboards.
We are talking about two of the 3 basic appendages omitting centerboards .
Frankly, after 2 k years of sailinf all we have are basicly THREE choices?
Untill Now! You need to learn about SCABBOARDS. i would love to talk to you and continue this discussion.
Norman Cook RI USA
Hello: thanks for your discussion on the difference of Keels to daggerboards.
However, these are only two of the Three Catagories of traditional al unerwater
appendages the 3rd being Centerboards and their variations! Let alone the
New 4th Catagory being SCABBOARDs !Safety must be paramount a sailing vessel ! Crew intervention prior to Collison, impacts the hull,,Board/ Foil, Trunk, & the standing rigging stresses!
Let's look at all the options of SAFETY and preformanes of all the above!
continue on with your presentations with a follow up discussion & the factors
Great platform for benifits of all design elements, I will look to future reviews
If the daggerboards are down at mooring, doesn't this help prevent rocking of the vessel?
Sailing is one of the most enjoyable elements of cruising for us. If you go cruising you will be doing a lot of sailing, I would not be happy with a boat that could only tack through 110 degrees and had generally poor sailing ability. It's not about racing, it's the delight in sailing at 6 knots in 6 knots of breeze. Chances are, your lesser performing cat with fixed stub keels will be motoring a whole lot more when the wind drops below 10knts, which is often. Daggerboards offer many advantages with some drawbacks as you have noted. If you're considering a daggerboard cat, you've probably already placed a high priority on good sailing characteristics, and with that will come compromises in load carrying and interior volume. Compromise is an inherent part of boat design.
Just saw a cat walkthrough with powered centerboards. The centerboards could be fully raised which would give many of the pros of daggerboards.
If I could pick a teacher/professor for my kids... Someone like Ryan!!!
Great comparison. Very complete. Useful info. Love the precision and the wide approach coming from his software developer/engineer background.
Nice compilation of ideas, thanks man. I've been looking and building a Richard Woods designs and most of the daggerboard boxes on the boats I'm looking at are placed between the bridgedeck and the hulls instead of thru-hull, so no extra danger of holing the hull in a grounding. That and his bridgedeck cabin/cuddy idea are two of the big things drawing me to his designs. For me there's no choice, daggerboards all the way. It's the extra configurations for storm tactics and being able to point higher, both from a safety standpoint and comfort. I feel like if I'm already building the boat, fitting LAR keels would be handy capping all my work. That's amazing that boards add so much cost. It's considered one of the more tedious tasks in a home build, but $30k? sheesh (that's about what I plan on spending to build), i'll save it for kitty, thanks. :P Keep up the videos, fun watching someone else research this crazy phenomenon.
One other think Richard has said; LAR Keels add buoyancy, but it's added in the wrong places. So they can increase hobby horsing tendencies, if the boat has them.
If you ever end up on a lea shore in a seaway or trying to get to windward in a heavy sea you will want all the pointing ability you can get. Very good informative video, thanks.
Two other cons to Daggerboards worth considering are that they take up valuable liveaboard space and that in the long run, any device is susceptible to Murphy's law and the ensuing cost of repairs.
Which choice regarding a boat is not susceptible to Murphy's law? A life jacket maybe?
@@xlenau None, the daggers just add unnecessary to the numbers of those devices especially when considering cruising as the main use of the boat...Cats are fast enough compared to monos anyway. Narrower hulls make it even worst with the box taking place...Not my idea for fun but to each their own after all.
Nice info especially for beginners. I own a trimaran having I believe a bit of both good world's. Having a mini keel added for protection and draft going from about 2 ft to 4 feet. Also a swingkeel not a bagger board comming out of the minikeel. Swingkeel is protecting itself in the way that it will simply retract if it touches anything hard like a log or a whale. Mini keel starts at 0 forward and reaches the depth of 2 more feet so total of 4 feet draft now after about 2 feet going aft. Mini keel is foil shaped though without leading edge. Swingkeel is also foil shaped and pivots on a 5/8 SS pin. lines control swingkeel up or down. Even swingkeel is made from marine plywood and glass epoxy. Swingkeel down.gives me almost 7.ft. draft.
I love all the research you guys do on things like this. I'm also in that shopping/planning/dreaming of buying a catamaran stage. Love your videos.
Thanks for the information .One point which I thought was major was the cleaning and maintenance on the daggerboards. Very good point indeed
heading to Annapolis to check out some new cruisers on the 27th I will also look into the daggerboards debate
cheers
I was curious what daggarboards were. Solid explanation. Subscribed. Thank you. Also, where did you obtain that Hawaiian chart behind you?
I was not aware of the buoyancy issue with the dagger boards and I also didn't know about the "Hobby-Horsing" increase. Thanks for the education.
I'm currently watching another channel that just bought a vessel with dagger boards and I'm curious to see just how much value they really add to the ship. I'm in the market for a cat, but, like you, had settled on the mini-keel because of the space loss, critter growth and cost. I didn't really think that would make up for the pro's. Now I'll have to watch with an increased knowledge, so I'll have to look for more issues.
I'm not sure if I should thank you for that or not. ;)
What is the name of the other channel you are watching? Thanks in advance
With the keels full of diesel and water, there is no buoyancy.
Having had a Catana, we broke two dagger boards from hitting something or too much lateral stress. On our present Grainger with fixed keels we can easily beach her to change zincs or do repairs. The keels are a must in British Columbia due to floating logs that are always out there. The keels have saved us many times and never has a log touched the sail drive. Touch wood
Just a quick note... you get the 2 knots of speed down wind by pulling up the daggerboards. You get a better angle to the wind by putting them down. At the 4 minute mark, you sound like you are combining the two for better angle and faster speed. You get one or the other :)
Can you put foils in the dagger board place? Does anyone do this?
You can build sacrificial mini keels. If you do strike something the mini keel breaks off and doesn't compromise your hull.
Even if I don't own a catamaran and I don't have any experience with them I would say that probably a fixed keel one is as fast if not faster then one with dagger boards on a passage. The reason is very simple, for the same money you can get a longer fixed keel catamaran and even in some ideal situations the shorter performance oriented one will be faster on the long run it is often the longer boat that does the passage faster.
I think that for those that want fun and performance a daggerboard catamaran is the better option, but probably even more important is avoid one that has hydraulic rudders that kill the sensibility when you are at the helm. If you want emotions and fun sailing there is no alternative.
For those that are more cruise oriented it depends. Having less buoyancy in itself is not bad, as you actually can carry more pay load having the boat weight the same. The payload of the performance catamarans is lower, but not because they have the dagger boards, it depends on other choices, they are designed as a whole to be very light, often using mainly or partially carbon fiber, and are designed to allow only a little payload, other way their performance degrades.
So the real choice is if pay less and have a slower boat that can carry more pay load, has more space, but has problems windwards and with light wind so compel you to use the engines more often or you accept to limit the weight of the things you carry with you to be able to resort to the engine less often and, why not, have some more fun when the ideal conditions for speed are there.
But there is a 3rd choice, there are boats that have the right compromise between performance, space and weight, not many of them, and you pay them probably as much as the performance catamarans, they have usually dagger boards or in at least a case centerboards. Their price is in the range of the high performance boats, so they don't come cheap, but are built to be cruising boats that can perform well, not performance boats that can cruise.
Now the trend is towards the performance catamarans with dagger boards, as they are cool, and there is still few to really cover the area between them and the charter oriented fixed keel boats, but I hope that in the future there will be more space for catamarans with dagger boards, that can so go upwind efficiently, but with less exasperation on performance, fast enough to don't be sitting ducks in a light breeze like some of the keel ones are, that have a little more space and payload then the actual performance oriented ones.
After all every catamaran has much more space then every mono hull of the same weight or length, and they are boats, not apartments.
You rightly say that everything in sailing is a compromise, but it seems to me that the real compromise is hard to find in the present catamarans, we have to choose mostly between large and slow station wagons and very fast and expensive Lamborghini sport cars, if you get what i mean, and the right compromise is hard to find on the market.
Hard to find, but some producers are slowly moving in that direction.
Thank you so much for the excellent information. From knowing nothing I am now feeling confident about the differences.
Don't take my word for it. Look at surveys conducted by cruisers after one or two years, they pretty consistently show that performance started lower on the priority list, but after sailing for a year or two, they realize that performance equals comfort and safety. I'd refer you to Chris White's books. (His boats are for lottery winners, but the concepts are at least worth examining.)
So it's not performance or cruising, it's performance AND cruising...
Interesting perspective. And maybe that's a natural progression for people. Too bad that saying tends to hold true: With regard to sailing/boats you can have performance, comfort, and a reasonable price. But you can only choose 2.
I have heard this point also but it comes down to those that have a timeline to get somewhere, what is there, what you pack and those that want to live and enjoy where they are. One cat owner I know went from keeled to dagger boards to spend less time sailing more time anchored with less weight and went back so they could have the coffee maker and other things they missed on the boat to be less dependent on onshore cafe's and topping up water.If you are going to odd places and want to take a little more gear like he did (dive tanks, extra fuel and water, air compressor, tools to repair, coffee maker, extra food and extra safety gear and people) also the last boat was stronger and more insulated as he wanted to do southern ocean and further north.Either work and both beat the rubber ducky that sits in my bath tub :)Just get the best condition boat you can afford and do the maintenance or get something you know where the work is needed, budget for someone else to do the work and do some of it yourself (pay when you are sick of being dirty).
What cat does your friend have?
If budget is a consideration... have you considered building your own? You'll get a more modern design, and save about half the cost in actual cash outlay. But its' a HUGE commitment, and will take about 2 - 3 years of full time work. You'll also need a place to build it, which can add to the cost. However, if you've not considered it, you might take a look at designs by Bruce Schionning (Australia) and Kurt Hughes (USA). Both produce heart stoppingly beautiful designs, and a 40 foot boat can be built for 200 - 300K.
The Balance 526 allows for the best of both worlds. You've got daggerboards with no above deck protrusions and very easy to raise and lower.
Great job, clear and concise Cheers.
Not all fixed keel production catamarans have weight bearing keels that can be beached. Some are externally tabbed onto the boat. Don’t assume you can beach one or you might be surprised :) Also, people beach certain types of daggerboard cats all of the time. Misleading dichotomy IMO. Good luck finding your boat! We are also cat shopping for our next cruising boat !
How about a center-mounted pivoting board (centerboard)? It offers protection against grounding, doesn't intrude on interior space and can be configured to a deeper draft, improving efficiency. It could be nominally out of the water when retracted. However, I don't know of any catamarans made with this feature.
The reality however of owning a cat is that even though they can be beached you try and avoid this at all costs as antifouling and sand dont go well together which just means more work down the line is scrubbig the hulls, best to avoid beaching if you can.
Very interesting. I have sailed a daggerboard cat for many many years, albeit only a 7m Hirondelle (camping in a boat) I've sail the Irish sea and sailed all the 5 kingdoms therein (Wales,Ireland, England, IOM, and Scotland) We never had the hobby horse effect, so I assume you are correct in your remarks. As to the boards hitting objects, that happens, our boards were 1.5" hardwood and plenty of chunks were removed but the trunks always remained solid. As to beaching, we did that all the time as we were use to 10m tides (we were far too poor for them fancy marinas and gin palaces) Our rudders also came up as well. The rudders also hit objects (3/4" ply) we lost two in one event, after they broke the tops then just fell into the sea leaving us steering by outboard until we jury rigged some. We finally lost her after hitting something underwater in a F8. The poor helicopter chap came down by wire but had to leave after 20 minutes aboard after turning green (yes your skin takes on a green hue) There was reserve buoyancy so we didn't leave the boat, thought we got a bit damp 10 miles out off the Welsh coast (never get off your boat at sea unless it is tilted 45º and you are stepping off the stern) I found your appraisal very honest and well thought out giving keels and daggers a good airing. I myself would pick the daggers for the fun and excitement even though I only cruised but I got to places where those half boat fear to tread. Having said that I wouldn't argue with your choice as it suits your dreams. Keep up the good work
Wow thanks for sharing your experience! Really interesting to hear.
Dermott Lappin
Hey we had a Hirondelle MK 2 as well fantastic cat great to sail and easy to tweak the boards for different point of sail.
I had a look at Daggerboard Cats and they seem to be built for speed. This means that the interiors are lacking, less space overall. I don't think you will find big Cats with Daggerboards on.
Dazcat and Catana use Daggerboards, probably other Cats but those are the two I looked at.
"Less buoyancy" is not a direct consequence of having daggerboards instead of a keel, but rather one of having a performance cat. That's because performance cats are generally more sensitive to added weight. More precisely, it's about their hull shape in the vicinity of the waterline and about their lighter displacement. You've said it well in the beginning of your video: Daggerboards-based cats are generally more performance oriented, and a lot of other design elements come with that.
So, if the construction of daggerboards was different, than it might be more interesting again?
This is really good information, I am in the market for a boat, and I am trying to decide what to buy or build. I am leaning towards building my own aluminum sailing catamaran. I am a mechanical engineer, and I own a metal fabrication business. I have been designing a pneumatic or hydraulic deployed daggerboard that I can control from the helm. Iam currently designing a hybrid propulsion system utilizing 2 small gas turbine engines with retracting electric pods.
Good video, but a major pro for minikeels is the option to careen the boat on a beach to do maintenance that would otherwise need to be done in dry dock.
Thank you for your videos, I want you to know that I appreciate your work in creating them. i live in Houston, and just took my family to the boat show in Kemah a couple of weeks ago. I think walking around on a new FP Lucia 40 finally got my wife to seriously consider a lifestyle change on land to realize the dream of sail life at some point in the future. If I were to purchase a new cat right now, I would look at the Fountaine Pajots. They seem to be the best value catamarans in my opinion. Best of luck to you guys!
Oh cool, we almost went to the Kemah show but the 3hr drive persuaded us against it. Kinda wish we had gone though. But yeah the new generation of FP's definitely seemed to have stepped up their game. If we were shopping for a new boat, they would be a very strong contender for us.
Don't feel too bad about not coming, besides the twos cats there wasn't too much to look at.
What if a fixed keel had a 'fan-like' extended keel that could be folded up or down depending on sailing requirements? Just a thought, I might be out of my depth here.lol
Thanks Ryan. Another excellent video!!! ! am also wondering which cat to buy and your research is extremely helpful. In fact your videos provide more useful and practical information than most other sources.
There is another point relating to daggerboard equipped cats. Since they are, on the whole, lighter and faster they will accelerate quicker down swells. That sounds good on the surface, but for those onboard the constant acceleration and deceleration can be physically exhausting and potentially dangerous. So, not only does it create a less comfortable ride, but there is a very real risk of injury being slammed side to side or fore and aft. Fixed keel cats, on the other hand, are slower and because they are slower to react to wave forces they offer a steadier and safer ride, albeit a less thrilling ride.
The ultimate safety device you can have onboard is a rational and safety conscious captain. What we all hope is that when he errs he errs on the side of caution. But, sometimes there can be circumstances at sea where no matter how experienced or salty the captain might be the boat and crew can still be put in peril. The Jordan Series Drogue is a piece of emergency gear that will absolutely save your life when all other hope is lost and the captain and crew are at the end of their proverbial ropes. Just know that before the praying begins there really is something you can do if you've given it enough forethought and preparation. I'm talking about hurricanes and lesser storms that can and do kill people at sea and can turn your beautiful luxury sailboat into flotsam. Personally, I would never attempt a transoceanic crossing without one. The Jordan Series Drogue was designed by a NASA engineer back in the 1960's and you could literally go through a Cat 5 hurricane with 100 foot swells without fear of life or limb. In the history of its existence not a single life or a single penny of property has been lost due to major storm wind or waves. Deploying a JSD before the real teeth of the storm hits is your literal guarantee of survival. Those claims, btw, are not mine, but rather those of the company that makes and sells JSD's. They say that after a deployment riding out a major storm becomes a benign event and you never feel threatened.
You simply go to bed knowing that when you wake up the next day your boat's position will have changed by 3-5 miles and that you and your boat will not be the worst for wear. Riding out a hurricane or tropical storm with a JSD is said to be like riding an elevator up and down as the swells and breaking seas flow under the keel(s) of your sailing vessel. Read everything at the link I'm providing and educate yourself while keeping an open mind. And if you don't believe their story at JSD then maybe you'll believe the objective testing results obtained by the US Coast Guard and their subsequent endorsement. Captains tend to become creatures of habit and tradition. That kind of subtle arrogance can lead to unnecessary danger on the open water. The correct perspective with respect to the JSD is to think of it as the sailboat equivalent of a fighter pilot's ejection seat. It's the ultimate and final barrier between you and certain death. Here's the link.
www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/
Ah good point. Thanks for sharing!
I never noticed that
Nice work on the cartoons. Adds a fun dimension and clarity to your video.
Thanks for the support! It was kind of an experiment on how difficult they'd be to add. We probably won't ever get to fancy with animations, but I'll probably do more of it in the future. I like being able to demonstrate the concept with the images so that people who are really new to all of this can better follow along.
@ Jessica and Ryan Adventures
Ryan, great informative video, thanks. I am looking into putting dagger-boards on my cat that I'm drawing up plans for now. I've been thinking about using linear actuators that stroke either a 40" or 48" & also have the dagger-board only retract where there is still 24" acting as a keel.& at total extension it would be 72" lower than the base of the pontoon. The actuators are about $560 AUD & I plan to have them connected up remotely.
Mark, Perth, Western Australia
great job ,covered pro s and con s equally. how bout compare chinese sails to western,...speed,square footage,ease of operation, initial cost and maintenance,...i'm designing and building so all options are still on the table .solved the dagger board issue,for me,...a single centerline foiled daggerboard/rudder with sheer pin pivot for groundings or logs. and twin outboards tucked up under the aft belly 2foot outta the water for sailing.sure would appreciate a response,..thanks
Definitely interesting video. I’m interested in the seawind 1190 cruise with daggers, removable rudders, and outboards. Obviously a pretty specific scenario, but can get down to 1’9” which is appealing. Right now my draft is 6’ on my mono hull so have plenty of time to dream while I save up for my adventures.
We bought an 1190 for this exact reason togther with the slightly lighter carbon contruction there is a niticable boost over the otherwise very similar 1160 mini keel. Very happy with our choice
You make a good case for sticking with keels but I would be keen to see if it was possible (not available right now as far as I am aware) of having retractable foils retrofitted and get the best of both. They have the ability to sail/fly up to 1.8x speed of the wind when deployed, more stable and less pitching. Manual control of the foils works but computer control would give more options dependant on conditions present.
Check out the GB G4. Not something that most people could afford but a cool concept in action.
I am aware of the G4 but that is not a retrofit.
Great job as per usual you two, it's one of those things I've been scratching my head over. Like you I'd be more inclined towards fixed keel, only problem is, and I know it's a bit of sentimental idiocy. I'm a Kiwi overstayer, but Australia has been my home for well over half my life and it's looked after me and treated me well, as such I'd like my cat to be Australian designed and owned. There are only two choices really, seawind and lightwave.
This is where my conundrum comes into play, I REALLY like lightwave cats, but everyone I have looked at has a single daggerboard, for bluewater cruising is that daggerboard gonna really be an advantage or detriment ?
Thoughts ?
From what I've heard/read, those who go for cat's w/daggerboards is because of the point you made regarding sailing upwind...
Thank you Ryan. I see that this was posted 5 years ago, so facts might have changed. The main point that you made is that a dagger board cost 30 to 35,000 more. This would make the decision for most recreational sailors. They can get a fixed keel and a pickup truck, or thay can get a dagger board. We have to blame the boat manufacturers for this. Granted they have to recoup their cost for the mold change, but $30,000 more for boat is ridiculous. I think that if the cost was $3,000 more, which it should be, everyone would choose a dagger board. It's just a more efficient wing. Like on an airplane, you can have a short fat wing with lots of camber, which is very inefficient, or you can have a long thinner wing like on a sail plane, which is very efficient. And the argument about a fixed keel being safer when you run your boat into sand is really irrelevant. If you're going to run a $300,000 boat into sand, you really shouldn't have bought the boat. Plus when you're running, which is the worst wind, you can pull your dagger board up.
I know this is a bit late but my experience on a cat with daggerboards is that they also move around in the casing which causes loud knocking at night if not at a totally still anchorage. We chocked them as much as possible at the deck level but it was impossible to remove entirely.
Very much appreciate all your research on topic: Catamarans. Thank you guys!
This is a really well done vid, nicely organized and you offer a lot of good information.
Hmmm .. While Catamarans are nice and allow more in the way of living space.. I'll take a Trimaran all day over a Cat. Trimarans also point much better into the wind ... Trimarans are also a lot more predictable when things get out of shape. .. Cats not so much .. Again, living space has always been a drawback however (There a few exceptions) Trimarans are generally much faster at tacking/gybing etc.. Trimarans only need/use 1 motor vs two.. Mostly Trimarans behave a lot more like a monohull making them much easier to sail.
The obvious advantages of a trimaran over a catamaran that I see are:
- Central structure to take rig loads
- Shallower righting moment curve might be more forgiving for shorthanded offshore work allowing the boat to be pushed harder
- Central structure accommodates greater overall beam for increased righting moment
- Central hull has more rocker and lower prismatic coefficient than floats making for better light-wind performance when sailing on the center hull
Amen!
Thank you Im glad I learn something new no I will get a fixed keel another thing can you make a video on why do cats flip over and how to stop this I thinking of getting a cat because of safety reason but dont want to flip over is this more of a sail thing or is it the hull thank you
Outstanding fair unbiased comparison. I learned stuff. Thanks!
after 14 yrs living on a catamaran I have a lot to add to this discussion. I have shaft drives,these are far far far far better than any saildrives. I have kick up rudders and Dagger boards. I live on the beach half the time, I am always drying out in those little hidey holes in paradise, like hill inlet in the whitsundays , google it. my boards take up an extra 2 inches on the front of my hanging space, the board cases form the side of my hanging space so it is only the width of the case that you lose, in my case around 2 inches. saildrives are an absolute nightmare. The only people that like saildrives are the builders who make much more profit by reducing labour costs on the install however you will pay for their extra profits for the life of the boat. My anodes are 6 dollars each, saildrives ones can be up to 160 dollars each and they last the same amount of time roughly depending on several factors like dissimilar metals under the water, and wiring issues, such as grounding plates for hf radios etc. I recently bought different propellors to change pitch they cost 400 dollars each for my 44 foot catamaran. price saildrives props yourself and you'll see what I mean. The saildrives are sent to the factory on a fibreglass plinth and they simply glass it into the bottom of the hull. no need to build engine beds and shaft logs and cutlass bearings and shaft seals. that takes time and money but it is a much more reliable system if done correctly. don't believe me go and check out any commercial fishing vessel that makes a living working day in day out and tries to keep maintenance costs to a minimum. let me know if you find any saildrives I will be very surprised. The mini keel design is a necessity in saildrive boats to protect the saildrive leg from damage. A few things not mentioned I recently delivered a production cat for an insurance company where despite the use of a bridal and correct anchoring technique the anchor chain caught on the sloped rear edge of the mini keel, a feat I would not have thought possible, and cut through the keel in 24 hours. the keel was torn completely off. I have heard of this happening to three boats now and it generally occurs in wind against tide situations. Mini keel boats sail up over the anchor from tack to tack and generate larger forces on your ground tackle and tend to pull anchor more often. I assume it is at the end of one of these tacks when the anchor chain is pulled tight in between the hulls that it hooks on the keel. It probably falls back off a thousand times but each time puts a little more damage on the back of the mini keel until it eventually creates a slot that it can hook into. Mini keel boats tend to drag anchor a lot more than Dagger board boats. A friend of mine with a lagoon and Volvo saildrives has to lap the cone clutches every 100 hours. that is ridiculous. You have to use different antifouls as you have aluminium permanently immersed under the water with a sail drive so you have two types of antifouls on your boat. I draw around 18 to 20 inches of water and that let's me go almost anywhere. A Dagger board boat with saildrives is just stupid, there's no other way to describe it. you have all the disadvantages and none of the advantages of either type. Mini keels create a lot more drag and so do saildrives. We sail at windspeed or better up to around 7 knots of wind that means we hardly ever motor anywhere, we can do this because we have boards and kick up rudders. every anchorage we go into we see the mini keel boats sailing up on there anchors and taking up a Lot of space in anchorages because of it. They also anchor in amongst the monos so it's pretty tight out there some times. we on the other hand are in a shallow part of the anchorage or up inside a shallow inlet on a sandbar and nobody can drag onto us as they will be well and truly aground before they get to us. we always have plenty of room. Our boat has very little pitching as we have a lot less rocker and a higher prismatic coefficient, look it up. this also means we have better distribution of buoyancy and a kinder motion at sea. the lagoons etc are incredibly heavy, my 44ft cat weighs under 4000 kilograms around 8000 pounds check the weight on a similar size lagoon. I have one toilet to fix not 4. I have no heavy moulded liners and mdf and chipboard cupboards etc etc. A production boat looks nice but is way heavy and a lot of them are built from balsa and polyester resins. this is a rot box disaster waiting to happen. hope you like fixing rot if you buy one of these. I am a boat builder and designer and have a lot of experience in this area, my advice is don't ever buy a french production boat fullstop. You can contact me via my youtube video, search for magic carpet 3.5 with a 3 hp, if you want to know more. these guys have done a lot of homework and put together a great site, I hope you have a great trip and your boat goes well for you. There is a lot more to discuss about first time catamaran choices, most french production cats are sold into the charter industry where they are restricted to near shore semi protected waters and are sold off after their service life comes to an end. this is why they dominate the used boat market. they are all about looks and accomodation. You have to squeeze the maximum number of people into the boat to make the charter more affordable for everyone and of course you need your own ensuite. I personally would avoid all ex charter boats like the plague. They are extremely heavy and must therefore carry huge rigs/sail area to have even mediocre performance. For example last year we had a race with a Dagger board so called performance catana 45 footer, one of the new "lightweight carbon" ones. We pulled anchor 15 minutes after the race started and beat them over the finish line by 5 minutes for an elaped time of 56 minutes. needless to say the broker with his go fast crew and the client interested in the boat wasn't impressed we were more than 30 percent faster than their so called performance boat and we were in full cruising trim dinghy kayaks Genset the lot. There boat was brand new and empty. In the same conditions the only time a production boat gets near us is in 4 knots of breeze and we are sailing and they are motoring. In saying all that we have the accomodation of a 35 foot lagoon in a 44ft boat. Cheers
Great info and discussion, thanks for doing the research on this very important topic for a prospective buyers...really getting a lot of knowledge from your videos...
I think you covered it pretty well.Though I would add each cat has a designed displacement, so with or without mini keels this this displacement should not be exceeded. Having extra bouyancy doesn't mean it can carry more weight. More weight = more load on everything.. So be careful, an overloaded cat can break...... Cheers Russell.
Great video thanks. Have you covered Catamaran lengths in any videos? Id like to know how smaller vs larger Cats handle bad weather in a world cruising application. Eg would a 42" Lagoon be more work to keep safe in bad weather vs a 52"?
Also knowing how to tune a daggerboard to the situation you are sailing inn. The biggest drawback daggerboards leave your rudders exposed to damage of drifting debris.
Cat manufacturers do not make performance cats with fixed keels. For this reason you can gain much more performance by going to a daggerboard boat, more than 2 knots. If you were to compare the same boats with the 2 systems then 2 knots might be the approximate advantage but in reality daggerboard boats are much faster. In certain conditions 20 knots for the daggerboard boat and 10 knots for the fixed keels.
HH and Balance both offer keels instead of dagger boards.
We will be closing soon on our cat with keels. Dager boats are a lot more work, and much harder to short hand sail. Also the up keep can run a lot of money.
Thank you for the discussion. Really appreciate the education.
Hi. Thanks for the video. Can you do a video like this about inboards vs outboards?
What about the Gemini 105 mc with folding center boards, and rudders that can be trimmed
I did not see or hear any talk about BRIDGE DECK CLEARANCE hard slapping,
banging when low! clearance.
Yeah, the topic of bridge deck clearance could be a whole video by itself. I'm not aware of any correlation between bridge deck height and daggerboards. I was under the impression that it was something that varied by boat builder and model. But that's a good question to explore. eg: Why do some builds make cats with seemingly very low bridge deck clearance?
Their priorities are more for party space for charter fleets and less for cruising comfort?
Ryan this is so Awesome and informative thanks for sharing this information and your opinions best regards.
What about external daggerboards? These would mount to the outside of the hulls.
Have you considered buying a lagoon 38 or the 39 second hand? They can come cheap, and I heard they're great to circumnavigate ... what do you think of those boats? ( and no, I'm affiliated to lagoon at all, just curious about yr opinion on them).... cheers guys
We have definitely considered them, for our price range and personal preferences we favor the 40'-ish range of Lagoons. So a 380 and 39 definitely fall into that category. Other options being the 400 and 410. The 42, 420 and 440 are probably to expensive for us but are also nice boats that we considered.
Hi Ryan, I'm considering buying an Alibi 54 for long journeys across pacific ocean. choose alibi because it should be as fast as a performance cat such as a gunboat and yet its not carbon and therefore half the price, plus just about everything under the alibi cat is retractable, and its propeller generates power under sail.
the other choice is to go with upmost safety, and that is the Garcia exploration 52, all aluminum, heavy and slow, but much safer. however with a hull speed of 9 something, I suspect the Garcia will only cruise at 7........ crawling in the ocean......
what do you think about the two boats? plz consider both new builds, I bought two used yachts and I'm heartbroken about used boats.
thank you so much
Enjoy the videos. All of this is theoretical, and opinionated information for everyone until they actually follow the dream and spend time hoisting sails. Its extremely intelligent to do extensive research. But at the end of the day the knowledge gained from the experience sailing will open your eyes, and make your decision on what boat you and your significant other will actually enjoy, for intended purpose.
Thanks for helping me make a choice!
Great job... I learnt a few things
Based on all this why don't we see more performance/cruising cats with hydrofoils built in? Aside from cost, which should come down as the tech becomes standard wouldn't the performance be significantly better in all circumstances?
Thanks for the research. It was helpful, even though I had already crossed dagger-boards off my list (I had a "shorter pro's & con's list" than you did. Your list was just more complete!
Do you know of any website that talks about maintenance cost of the various makes and sizes. I know the bigger the boat the more the maintenance cost, but what is the difference in cost? If boat A had a higher maintenance cost than boat B, even though boat A has a lower purchase price it might not be the best deal.
Thanks again on your research.
Its a good question. And from what I can see no one seems to have a good answer. I think it's highly variable on how much work you're willing/able to do yourself. But I do see your point. If boat A is built very sturdily for blue water cruising in bad weather, then it will cost more, but potentially have less problems. But boat B that was built for weekend use near the shore might cost you a lot in maintenance as it's built more flimsily.
For us, I try to see if models we're interested in are being used for world cruising. And if so, are people complaining about a higher than normal upkeep. But to be honest, with regard to catamarans, I've not heard to much about one cat being way more work than a similar sized cat. Somepeople have said that with regard to the big 3 production catamaran builders. Leopards hold up best, with Lagoons being a close second and FP being third. But the new FPs seem to be much better built, so that may be changing. Because of this I try to compare models of boats more than brands.
Thanks for the feed back! 👍👍👍👍 Two other ares I'm keeping my eye on are vertical wing sails and the use of electric motors. The technology is really making improvements that they've started doing long range cruising with electric motors (maybe with a small generator for backup). I think it's an area to keep an on as technology continues to make improvements and lowers the cost in these areas.
Both are cool technologies and may be more common in sailing in the future. Electric motors and batteries are more energy efficient than fossil fuels and will give cleaner and quieter miles. They can be charged from shore power or recharged from a generator, as you note. They can even be charged from solar or wind given enough time or area for solar panels or windmill blades.
Wingsails may eventually transition from racing into the mainstream. They too can be more efficient than conventional sails. In many ways they're simpler. In some ways using them is more complex.
Beneteau is experimenting with a soft wingsail that's like a partially double-skinned cloth sail with curved, wing shaped battens. It can be reefed by lowering the sailcloth, just like a regular sail.
And, with daggerboards, you can go downwind a lot faster - just pull them up!
I have a question about bridge height. It looks like a lot of the heavier, charter style catamarans tend to have lower bridge decks. I have also heard a lot of complaints about waves hitting the low bridge decks and causing anything from uncomfortable feelings to loud noises to damage.
Matthew Wright I sailed Leopard and Lagoon. The first one is considerably lower than the second. There are pluses and minuses of each design, however since Lagoon is taller it is less comfortable in maneuvering under strong the side wind. In big chop Lagoon is a bit more comfortable, however I'd think that it has less stability than Leopard, since its center of mass is higher.
One with the daggerboard catamaran and fixed keel catamaran dont have same hull structure daggerboard catamaran hull are narrower and also much lighter
Excellent summary. However I would point out you are perpetuating the myth that light displacement boats are not as good weight carriers as heavy displacement boats (particulary as regard to monohulls) when in fact they are superior. In a simplistic nutshell it takes more weight to depress the light displacement hull say an inch than it does the heavy displacement hull. You can simply illustrate this by considering the amidships cross sections of heavy and light displacement hulls. As the typical light displacement hull is depressed it gains significantly more “inwater" volume than a typical heavy displacement hull.
I think I see what you're saying.. as you say it would depend on the hull design and how much it flares out. Also like you said I could see it being more relevant for monohulls as cats hulls tend to "straighten up" fairy quickly
do they make any cats with swing keels instead of daggerboards?
wow! good info! I will put you on my playlist for the sailing class ; if that is ok? Nice work btw; and thank you for making my life better.
John the LImo drver from Kansas city
Yeah for sure! Feel free to share it however. Glad we could be of some assistance! :)