Clips: Winchester 1911: Winchester's Puzzle Box Shotgun
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 ส.ค. 2024
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This is a quick review of facts or factoids taken from our more in depth videos. If you're curious and would like to know more, please check the links below for our full length episodes on those that we have done so far:
Primer 084: French Contract Winchester 1907
• History of WWI Primer ...
Primer 108: US Remington Model 8
• History of WWI Primer ...
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For anyone further curious about this piece, O did a takedown vid on her a while back: th-cam.com/video/rb1fUruADF4/w-d-xo.html
Ayeeee it's Mae! Have a good day! Lol
I love your videos. Simple yet beautiful presentation
First time seeing your last name... fitting.
Finally, a peek at this “1911” people keep asking you to cover.
It's actually rather impressive how functional the gun is despite having to avoid every convenience that John Moses Browning ever patented. There aren't even any screws securing the internals, like there would be (in great number) on the Browning Auto. I've got one myself, and I quite like it as long as I never have to take it apart ever again.
I’ve just gotta say that I’ve seen you comment on various videos for literal years now and it has raised you to minor celebrity status in my mind.
It is intriguing how much money Winchester ended up burning on development of weapons to bypass Browning compared to just giving him the royalties. Really shows gives the lie to the idea that corporations are utterly inhuman institutions, because despite the best efforts to protect the bottom-line by decentralizing liability, there always is a handful of people in every big business who have the power to really make or break everything usually because of their very human decisions.
@@thetman0068 A comment from TheGoldenCaulk is like the internets stamp of approval. This stamp guarantees this content is grade A or higher.
I'm going to have to go watch Othias' takedown vid of this weapon now, because I'm seriously curious how it holds together.
Amen! As a "Hunting" tool, I see zero issue with a hot barrel, or "no" Bolt handle, as no one knew what a "bolt" was at this time, as a reasonably safe Gun user, zero issue with body or parts in front of biz end! as our ancestors' understood survival of the fittest(not dumbest).
If I was around in the day "Price" may have decided it? The Name was gold! and Price was not a part of this show?
Would love to see a compilation of Othias handing this shotgun to confused people on the range
I second this
If it weren't for the rough patch on the barrel, they'd really be confused.
Have an older M17S. Many people can't find the charging handle on it. Some figure it out, some don't.
I want one of these for that very reason
Yes please lol.
Stumbled upon one at a NC gun show in 2013. Didn't know anything about it but the dude was like $200 and it is yours. Many years later I love my freak of nature.
My brother's inlaws have 3.
When shooting one, it SLAMFIRED after charging. Happily it was pointed at a massive bank, intentionally, and well away from all bodies, as we knew the reputation.
A automatic shotgun slamfiring. Now thats how you got a... unique. Design.
Stuck firing pins can lead to shitty situations
Sounds like someone didn't learn how to properly load the gun. Damn lucky it was pointed in a safe location.
@@automandan pretty obvious that its a equipment issue.
@@automandanTell me you've got too much ego without telling me.
While I was on my honeymoon (version two) in Ruidoso New Mexico, my wife and I, were going through shops. We ended up in a pawn shop. That's were I found my widow maker. When I got it home I fed it a diet of everything I had. My shoulder ended up as black as night. I agree how I enjoy handing it off to others to see and shoot (without a recoil pad). 😁
The marriage ended years ago, but the Winchester lives on in my collection!
The gun lasts longer than the wife means you know it’s tough lol 😂
I've always experienced less recoil from Browning auto shotguns, because the barrel movement eats up most of the shock.
But, I've never tried, or even seen one of those though.
Glad you took care of her with your shotgun.
she probably left you because you spent your honeymoon night shooting loads in your shotgun instead of shooting loads in her
@@jacksutherland846 I bet it’s because the fiber friction rings have degraded to the point they are useless in most of these guy’s guns or maybe the fiber rings just aren’t that effective compared to brass. Or maybe they have the gun incorrectly set up, the auto 5 is thought to be hard recoiling by some who didn’t know how to handle it. I love my Remington 11 and Auto 5
From my Father's experience, many years ago, it had a tendency to auto fire after the first round & wouldn't stop until the magazine was empty. 😱 For that reason it was retired.
My dad told me about this.
I have seen one, never fired it
Genius way to separate the real Men from the boys.
This was my grandfather's shotgun that he purchased somewhere in the early 1920s. It ended up with my father who had been a farm boy and delivered milk in the night seeing 50s. Ergo he was a fairly Stout I always begged to get a chance to shoot it and he would always say when you can cock it and lock it I'll let you shoot it. I'll never forget the first time I shot it I had shot 12 gauge before but not with a shotgun that the entire barrel recoiled. Talk about recoil! When my father stopped laughing and I was getting up off the ground from my first shot, he and I worked on the ability to load shoot clean disassemble etc all within what the mechanics allowed. Still have that shotgun today and would not trade it for anything. Kind of an oxymoron in the development but nothing in life is perfect
Ahh yes, the first firing of a 12 gauge. The cottontail in my story was....in an unfortunate position
@@endutubecensorship what cottontail! All I see is tail!
I had one I picked up at a gun show, and wanted to try it out that very day, really good looking gun to my eyes. Went to a field way out of town and loaded it, cooked the barrel/ bolt fired a shot and liked it. Bit of a kick but not that bad. Shot it again and it went full auto on me, the sear broke. Back to the gunshot and the,seller got my money back, bought a Winchester '97 still have that one.
While a lot of people like to harp on the Winchester 1911, and it is undoubtably inferior to the Browning, it does possess some clever features. Notably, the fact that it only uses 2 screws in the design, the bolt recoil spring is captive in the buttstock allowing it to be a takedown gun, and the fact that unlike the Browning, the magazine could be loaded without holding the bolt release button down.
Winchester also alleged these recoil operated guns would cycle blanks, but I find that claim a bit dubious.
The widowmaker stories make more sense having now seen just how strong the recoil spring is.
in the early 2000s I saw one of these misfire while cocking it. It missed the dudes head by an inch or less.Yes he put the but on the ground and pushed down. and it was a 90 something year old gun at the time. Blew his hat off and left powder burns on his forehead.
Genius way to separate the real Men from the boys.
I had a 1911SL that wouldn't fire the second shell... until you tried to cycle and it would fire itself. I tried it three times just to make sure I wasn't pulling the trigger somehow. Even tried to use the takedown with a snap cap but it would drop the hammer anytime it was disturbed. A gunsmith said he found and removed a burr that was catching the hammer, but whatever he did didn't fix it. Looking back and hearing reports of slamfiring, i think it was shortstroking with that ammo.
I love hearing how designers work around patents. Sometimes it’s a brilliant “game changer” sometimes its goofy, but always interesting.
Old fart here...My great grandfather bought one in about 1915, according to my grandfather. I own it now and have used it since I was about 10 or so. At first, it was kinda stiff to operate, but by the time I was about 13, it was easy as pie. Mine does not seem nearly as stiff as this one. And it has not malfunctioned, not once, in the almost 60 years since I started using 2 3/4 plastic shells. On the farm, great grandfather killed a thief with it during the war. He also blew the arm off another thief with a 10 gauge single shot, which I also still own. He spent about 30 days in jail for that as the thief had already crossed the fence when he fired.
What surprises me here is that they could have welded and or added a foregrip to the barrel.
Long recoil action means it is very sensitive to the mass of the barrel. Start adding to it and you mess with the function. Also it's going to be zinging back and forth when you fire.
I imagine that the patent was generic enough for that to be a violation
That kind of drag would probably cause problems, not to mention harmonics.
@@joemontgomery6658 If that was the case, I doubt they would have gotten away with the plunger on the rifle either.
welding wasn't a thing... it would have to be forge welded (beating red hot metal together over and over) we take welding as we know it for granted now... maybe soldering might have worked, but who knows for how long
scary thing is how the designer thought this was a good idea lol... it just screams accident to me...
Later in life, John likened his reaching the end of his rope with Winchester and the Auto-5 to “one of those Yellowstone geysers that take a while to get hot enough to blow.”
In his meeting with Bennett, the two finally discussed a price. The exact figure is lost to history, but Browning referred to it as “a whopping price, one so high there wasn’t much chance he’d accept it.” Whatever the figure may have been was probably of little significance to Winchester’s bottom line, but boy would it have big consequences!
John browning also mired him and winchester in a legal battle with luger over a toggle action shotgun that cost a lot of money and went no where, it wasn't just winchester was an assholw to kind perfect John browning
@@jamesl5500 JMB was far from perfect. I'm under no disillusion.
@@HighCaliberHistoryLLC not hating on JMB at all, just saying it was more then just bennet being very short sighted and stubborn and more a culmination of bad interactions JMB, JMBs brother, and bennet had had
@@jamesl5500 I have a feeling he knew he was gunna tank the relationship going into that meeting.
Ian, over at Forgotten Weapons, has a video, where he reads a letter from Winchester, which is basically "sour grapes", over their "divorce" with John Browning.
Grandpa passed me one, it had a tennis ball on it. I asked grandma and she said it was for working the action from the painful, not the deadly end. Love grandpa and his simple solutions!
it was where?
Wow in such a small amount of time we go from muzzle loaders to the actions we are all familiar with. Then you have the ones that never quite caught on. Very nice, it certainly is original.
Did it come with an asbestos glove to grab the barrel? I feel that fits the esthetic.
Guns like this are the exact reason I enjoy firearms so much. They’re different, unique and quite interesting.
Genius way to separate the real Men from the boys.
Wisconsin pd few years ago put buckshot in a ceiling when they went to do a wellness check on some one who had a Winchester 1911 the officer got a free shave but was ok. Winchester 1911, are had to clean and disassemble and it causes problems from kicking like a mule to dumping the whole mag in one trigger pull. I was told they are a low brass only guns
oh man, my shoulder started throbbing just reading that sentence... that would be awsome/horrible all in one lol
I shoot high brass slugs from mine sometimes. Works fine but your shoulder is TOAST
Good job, love you calm presentation. I recall these growing up. Not new stock mind you, but in a row of used shotguns, the knurled barrel was a curious feature. Usually led by the advice, "you don't want that one boy". I suspect many a recoil springs were cut down so the cocking would be easier.
Production of this model ran from 1911 thru 1925 with possibly a few more produced afterward. It was a commercial failure and Winchester tried again to enter the self loading shotgun market with the model 40. Few of that model were produced as it was a commercial failure as well. If it is yeue or not, " auto loader" was a copyrighted name held by Browning and because of this, Winchester in order to not get sued for copyright infringement called their shotguns " self loaders". Love them or hate them, they are interesting guns but extra safety considerations need be exercised when shooting them. I added a number of them to my collection years ago when they could be purchased for under $125 each. With the Winchester trade mark and being the company's first attempt to enter an emerging market, I think they are sleepers in terms of investments.
I love mine. I go clay shooting with it all the time and it triggers the local fudds.
You'd think all that blued steel and wood would distract them.
I'm confused.
@@sinisterthoughts2896 There is a certain sub-species of Fudd that considers a semi-auto to be the Devil's work. I've heard that particular lecture a few times from my Dad. I love him, but he's wrong about guns.
I have one that belonged to my great grandfather. I only shot 5 shells through it when i got it back in 2012 or so. Was curious about what size shells you shoot out of it. Obviously 12 ga.
I have one of these Winchester 1911s that belonged to my grandfather. The stock is cracked, almost certainly as a result of the fiber recoil buffers wearing out, which makes the recoil on these things savage.
My dad got his back in the 50's I still have it, the only thing that was a problem with this gun was the shell would occasionally jam on autoloading, you made sure you used your knife or a stick to bump it on in because there would have been no way to get a finger out of that action
Finally, the 1911 episode we've been waiting for
bro this is like forgotten weapons but more chill. i love it.
As soon as i saw those serrations i felt a shiver shoot down my spine. What the hell.
It did earn its name in actual blood. A guy running around my former town known as lefty, had his palm on top of the barrel of one of these guns and was rapidly pumping down on the barrel jacking rounds through the gun when it fired, taking away his hand and most of his forearm.
pretty sure for a gun like this... to have this nickname... it happened... ALOT back in the day and there have been many close calls with it even in the last decades... its reputation is well and honestly deserved
Another difference between the two is the buffer system. The Browning A5 incorporates a friction ring and a friction piece that act as a brake on the magazine tube between the recoil spring and barrel lug.
I've always wanted one but they sure didn't have safety in mind when designing this. Get the oven mitt ready, lol.
I bet these shotgun owners were the first investors in asbestos gloves
In today's world, the Ove Glove or its generic cousins.
Much like old semi trucks, it was designed before safety was invented so it wasn't a consideration lol
A buddy I grew up with has a Winchester model 11SL. Instead of calling it "Widow maker", he called it the "buddy killer". I never saw him fire it, and I think he kept it due to being an antique, and an odd curiosity, like his old Chinese SKS.
In all the years I've handled old shotguns, I've never run across one of these.
I know of one that burst. Due to having tree bark jammed in the muzzle.
First one of your videos I’ve watched - great work and I’ll be watching more.
Just got an Auto 5, and now you can guess what else I want…!
Have one too.
Love it.. Low Brass only diet to save wear and tear.
Grandfather's favorite rabbit gun
I learned how to shoot a shotgun from my father AND a Winchester model 1911. It was the same shotgun he used as taught from his father. I begged to shoot it forever and was told “ once you can chamber a round you can shoot it”. It took me another year of growth but I finally could and did shoot it. The first two rounds I fired, my father stood behind me to watch. Actually, he was there to catch me as the stout recoil was, yes, very stout. He went through all the bad stuff time and time again until he was satisfied I would not put my head in my a% s and screw up. I never did thankfully. The first time I went pheasant hunting with friends they freaked out cuz they could figure out how to chamber a round. That was always fun. I put thru many, many rounds without ever having a hitch. My brother, 8 years younger was a ditto, ditto on all of the above. I knew he wanted this when our father passed so,,,,, I picked one up at a gun show for fifty bucks. It was almost like nib. Evidently the original owner hated it but kept it for his kids etc. best of both worlds, brother happy, me happy. Win win, yowsa!
This just goes to show you just how much influence John Moses Browning had on modern firearms design.
My grandfather bought one back in the early 1900s I'm not 100% sure when but it was passed on to my uncles who passed it on to my father who passed it on to me it's my go to duck hunting gun. Only thing wrong with it is it needs a new extractor, cuz it has a habit of stove piping when in autoloading mode. I usually just use my thigh as a buttrest when having to cock it, my shoulder hates me opening week lol.
I have one and it’s awesome!!!!!! Never pointed at a dear , and that deer did not drop!!!!!!!!!!
I just made a wooden 2 piece bolt on handgrip for the one I inherited from my grandad and other than looking a bit goofy it works great and no burned hands. It's a pain in the ass to disassemble for detailed cleaning but the way it is designed it can go a long time between such detailed cleanings. I did hear of one case where some guy was found dead with his head blown off that some speculated might have happened when he improperly charged the gun but there were no witnesses to confirm it. The man was known to be a drunk and suicidal so he most likely did it deliberately since the gun is drop safe and the firing pin does not free float an accidental discharge is not likely unless you manage to pull the trigger while charging it.
handing it off to confused people on the range?
yes, it will earn it's name! The rusty Baldwin
I love owning stuff that makes people go "huh?" until they get to try it.
I worked in a gun store fore 5 years in the 80's, saw a few of these come thru. They all had cracked fore ends from the massive bolt slamming foreword. The owner informed me all about the, "Widowmaker".
"youre not gonna make any friends in the house doing that in the middle of the night"
Thats oddly specific
My Grandpa gave me his model 1911 and I used it for years . and still have it .
If i remeber correctly savage also had rights to produce a5 "clones" such as the 720 and 745 series guns as well. Ive only seen 1 and regret not picking it up.
They should have given it side action bars and a pump action front handguard. Work it like a pump shotgun for the first round, then semi-auto after.
This is a really interesting firearm. Thank you othais!
My WWll Kamikaze killing naval gunner uncle gave me what he called the "widdermaker" and he explained why it was called as such. I always cocked it with the butt right on the upper left leg near the hip at a 45 or lower. Used it to teach my self how to hunt quail but when it started double firing I layed it down eventually trading it. Hell, a lot of the time I would just cock it, plop a shell in the open breach then press the button and it would slam forward. Afterward I'd load the mag up. Never misfired that way. Never forgot how it sounded. KaCHUNKK! Scared people.
Love the shorter episodes.
Mom! I want an Auto 5!
We have an Auto 5 at home.
Auto 5 at home:
The A5 was also manufactured by Savage arms as the Model 720 and latter made in Japan. I have all variations, they are fantastic, and a 1911 winchester. It has a badly damage forearm. Forearms are known to explode on the 1911 Winchester.
I have a franchi that is on the same design… they were notorious for the firing pin sticking!! Also nicknamed the widow maker or so I was told.
5:05 thats one way to deal with your enemies
Nicely edited and a good story. Thanks.
Savage Arms also made the Auto 5, it was a 3 shot for duck hunting.
I remember seeing variants of that Browning design, often cheaply, in pawn and gun shops in the 1980s-90s, but couldn't persuade myself to buy and try one. At that time newer autoloaders were more popular and many older guns hadn't yet attained expensive collectible status.
I found this very interesting since I own two Auto-5's. Well done!
I grew up shooting one of these in the 50s and 60s that functioned perfectly to. I think any widow that lost his head from holding it in front of a gun he was charging would be well rid of the goof.
Awesome educational series. Best on TH-cam!
awesome vids, thanks for thinking of us simpletons with short attention spans. Thank you
For puzzle guns, check out old Mauser pistols, like the M1934, where pretty much everything except the grip is interlocking.
Fascinating! Good vid- thanx!👍🇺🇸❤️
Absolute beauty
The a5 was great, still pheasant hunt with one
Great vid
Very unique! Thanks for sharing. Happy Thanksgiving.
Whoa, cool name with a funky looking gun
The Winchester Model 1911 "inconvenience mechanism"
I've examined one that had a broken linkage to the recoil spring, if I recall correctly there was a stirrup shaped part that seemed rather fragile and had been poorly repaired by soldering. Probably not the most durable guns, if you put high round counts through them.
Love mine hoping to get the buffing matiral in the bakc of the bolt replaced so I can actualy use the old girl
Very informative
I also enjoy the intro/outro cello(?) music.
BROWNING! We are still learning and using JMBs mind.
A guy showed us one when we were hunting a few years ago. It had the exact same mechanism but it was a Franchi. We thought it looked a little dangerous to load too.
On mine the rear edge of my wooden forearm got beat to a pulp allowing the barrel to advance too far forward. If you pulled the trigger when this happened it would not fire, but when you pulled the barrel back to cycle the round out it would fire.
See, it seems to me the safer way to charge it would be to find a convenient tree and just jam the muzzle into it. Still not a great idea, admittedly, but better than pointing it at yourself.
I always thought so, and it would probably be even easier to throw your shoulder into it.
For that matter, just carry around a wooden muzzle cap. Cover the muzzle, and then jam the barrel against the ground if there are no trees around.
Safe for you, but if it went off while the muzzle was pressed up against or very close to a solid object, even while your letting the barrel move forwards (or stock backwards)....? I don't think the muzzle would like that
@@gavindavies793 Hence why it's still a bad idea, just less so than sweeping your own face.
It is supposed to be braced against the thigh or hip.
@@cymond That makes sense. I could see people modifying the gun all sorts of ways: insulated leather pad, wraps of fiberglass twine and high temp silicone, a short length of radiator hose rubber.......
Guess I got lucky, as a 20-gauge Remington Model 11 is one of my favorite hand-me-downs from my grandpa. My wife can relax.
"..and like handing it to confused people on the range."
that's unusually cruel and unusual :-)
I remember when I was 16 at a flea market back in the 80’s and bought one of these for 100 bucks. Boy I thought I really had something. Until took it to a gun show and found out about this gun. And no one wanted them or bought them.
Still got it ?
If I had been in Wolliam Bennett's shoes, I would have paid Browning the royalties he wanted. Then when some other designer made similar demands, I tell him, "When your designs make as much money as Browning's have, you can demand royalties. Until then, mo deal."
Thanks for showing me this gun. I’m 40 and love shotguns and never heard of this one. Awesome. Try unloading my old 48-al franchi without shooting the rounds. There is a trick for ya.
I've seen a couple of these in my lifetime, I wouldn't mind having one just to have people look at it with a funny expression.
Don't forget the savage version of the A-5
My step father had one of these. I couldn't figure out how to chamber a round at first. When we got it going, the barrel got so hot after about 10 rounds that I had to use a work glove to make it go after that. I had to chamber it for each mag emptying because my boys were too young at the time and I wasn't going to let them put the butt on the ground so they could use two hands to chamber a round while standing over a loaded 12 gauge muzzle.
Somehow I can see this being California compliant
Othias is the GOAT 🐐
I have the Browning self loading 1911. It has the duck scenery imprinted on the frame
Mine has a button to lock the bolt forward. It must be newer or something
Its easy to see why none of the modern automatics use long recoil, that is a lot of moving mass to screw up follow up shots. Short recoil or inertial has much less momentum to deal with.
Very intersting as always
Crazy to think the idea of a handle out of the ejection port or a slide on a pistol were owned by one man back in the day.
I work at a gun shop in Texas and we had one of those come in last year that had supposedly shot the owners father in the chest, guy dident die but the son wanted to get rid of the shotgun
I had one that would slam fire chambering the first round. Then if it did happen to cycle, you’d get a click and nothing else. It got sold to a guy that was a m11 fanatic and knew how to fix any issues on them.
I wonder if an upright foregrip might have helped, but then again with how much force you need to use to cycle it, I guess there's a good question of how long that handle would last
and they can trip fire when going into battery on safe or off safe and can go full auto for no reason and empty all the rounds out of the magazine in about 2.5 seconds. been there and done that.
Kind of awkward charging action Winchester people ! So now we know why its called Widowmaker. Frankly though, I think today people have more safety sense and yeah thats pretty obvious to us how dangerous this might be if handled carelessly, and I don't want to cast aspersions regarding the folks of 100 years ago, but it looking back they were a little less careful about stuff in general in those days. Plus the whole autoloading thing was so very new that cultures of gun safety had not yet developed . I guess I'm trying to say it doesn't surprise me that the odd unfortunate fellow blew his own face off occasionally.
They still do, but, yes, education and PSA's seem to help.