The Problem With Tim Drake... Redundancy - Explained
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AI Generator Description
In this video, I'm going to discuss the problem with Tim Drake... redundancy. I'll explain what redundancy is and why it's a problem, and offer some solutions.
This video is important because it addresses a common problem that comic book fans face - redundancy. By the end of the video, you'll have a better understanding of why it's important to avoid redundancy in your work, and some solutions to help you avoid it. - บันเทิง
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I was a tad nervous about this one as I dont know nearly as much about Tim Drake as I do other members of the Bat family. But I've always felt his issue is one of the more obvious ones so I did want to talk about him. I never expected it to become a 30 minute video (expected this to be our shortest) Next up is a family I know a TON about, Flash Family. (We'll come back to Dick Grayson and the Batgirls)
Some people say that Tim Drake is physically the weakest Robin, but also the smartest and the perfect Robin.
Btw the wonder girl in new 52 teen titans was Cassie.
It was cassie
@@Greendragonranger671Thats newer, there was about 7 years he was written out of DC
@@comicstorian Oh I dont read comic. So I only remember Wally from the show.
What to do with Tim is PAINFULLY OBVIOUS. What set Tim apart from the other Robins was his personal life, he had a secret identity and network of friends and family. They took a lot of that away when they killed his father. What DC should do is get Tim out of Gotham, send him to college and give him his own supporting cast of characters. DC wanted Tim to be their version of Spider-Man and for many years he was and it worked, so just bring that back! And for the love of god get him as far away from Fitzmartin as possible.
My favorite thing about classic Tim, is that he’s just like… a guy. He is very normal. He’s not from a circus, he didn’t have a hugely traumatic childhood, until his mom died but that surprisingly doesn’t get referenced very much. But now, in order to give him a distinct characteristic, they play up the detective angle way too much. They made him a super genius, and that’s not relatable.
@@Kade_KapesPeter Parker is a super genius but it works and he's seen as a relatable dude
@@donna1717 That’s not his only personality trait though.
The marina thing is trying to do this
Exactly
Tim Drake is like the Wally West of Robins. He gave everyone just about everything they like about Robin, but he was big in a time before most modern people joined comics, so most of his impact is lost. Especially when New 52 retconned the other Robins' early years to be more like Tim's (even down to the costume). Now, I don't blame you if you don't get why Tim was such a big deal. Because as far as the world at large is concerned, he isn't.
agreed which is just sad and depressing.
@@yarc9 Case in point...
And Wally West is Flash again, with family.
@@yarc9 No, Barry is the Flash in the first years.
@@mayotango1317 If Wally can Find his footing so can Wally someday.
Me, a 90s Tim Drake fan: "Look how they've massacred my boy "
He's still a great detective what's wrong with him?
@@donaldallen9804 his backstory is butchered, he doesnt have any consistency, and his story arcs dont go anywhere
@@justusdinut7662 how is his backstory butchered?
@@donaldallen9804 I don’t really read but I think he means they change his backstory way too often
@@donaldallen9804 in the comics, he's gone from Robin, to Red Robin, to Drake, at some point Batman Beyond, back to Red Robin and as of today he's now Robin again... probably until Damien wants the title back again.
The sad thing about Tim is that his time as Red Robin was really short. You can tell that in his 2009 Red Robin series, there were more stories that the writers at the time wanted to do but didn’t because, of the fact that by the time Tim was done with the mantle of Robin and going on his own adventures as Red Robin, DC was on the verge of rebooting their universe, and the writers that were writing him and that series were replaced so they couldn’t do any more stories to unlock his full potential.
Personally, I would have Tim being Red Robin and having him being the detective around the world or keep him in Gotham and leading the Gotham Knights along side with Batwoman, and have him be a part time member of the Teen Titans, with Cassie Sandsmark Wonder Girl as the leader.
For Damian, I would have him be Robin, working alongside with Batman,going on his own personal adventures, and leading a new Young Justice with a young Jon Kent Superboy.
i would be all for that story because that sounded really awesome and tons of fun especially for Tim Drake robin and seeing him leading the Gotham knights was really awesome and tons of fun, also I agree Damian Wayne robin and Jon Kent superboy as his little 10 year old self leading the young justice would've been really awesome and tons of fun.
I think this would be the solution for Tim Drake, he should be Red Robin, and make him a part of if not in charge of the Batman International. He deals with Wayne Enterprises Global visits, while also pursuing villains around the world and doing more of a Sherlock approach of a story with occasional fights and other lesser known charas joining in
All they need to with Tim is continue off of what happened in Red Robin 2009, if Superman Rebirth can continue stories from pre 52 so can Tim.
That sounds totally fucking perfect and flawlessly logical, but DC is too incompetent for that shit💀
@@joshuasatterwhite9520 i Swear there has to be a double agent from marvel/disney sabotaging shit at DC/WB
What made Tim special was that he was the most well adjusted out of everyone. He wasn't consumed with tragedy his whole life and around every corner was some horrifying event taking place. He started out with a normal girlfriend who wasn't Stephanie and his own family. He was independent from Batman, which is what they took away to make him more like the other Robins...only to then wonder what to do with him.
I agree. I loved Tim and Ariana.
now hes just a gay sidekick
Tim was always my favorite Robin. Namely reading Chuck Dixion stuff but also The Red Robin series by Chris Yost was great. For me what made Tim the best Robin was that he wanted the job. He manages to deduce Batman’s identity and also gave a logical reason for why Robin needed to exist: to keep Bruce in check especially post Jason Todd’s death. I love Dick Grayson but Tim purposefully entered the role by himself. He also had to earn the position and has been shown to be on par with Bruce as a detective and intellect.
100% with you on this, I also remember a panel I think in one of the crisis books (the one with sue dibneys murder) where Batman is watching Tim working his detective skills and he states that Tim is the best detective having surpassed even Bruce's skill level. I hate how they can't seem to find a place for him in all this
Same here. I believe Tim Drake is probably my favorite hero of all time. Thay Chuck Dixon run was so good
Yknow something I kind of wish is that the bat family has traits and personality details that make them stand out, because as of now, a lot of the family is relatively the same. They talk the same, make the same remarks and quips, and behave alike.
As much as people like the idea of the bat family having a closer and more sitcommy style dynamic, they really are a strange family with unusual people in it who act strangely.
For example, if I were to characterise the Robin's, I'd define them as being a better part of bruce in one way or another
Dick grayson is a better man than bruce, and is a much cheerier and brighter personality in the family, as he was the first person that batman truly saved from turning into him.
Jason is the better vigilante, who is willing to end problems in a more permanent way, and has a more strict, emotionally distant personality who serves as the flaw in batman's ideology.
Tim represents the detective in bruce, and he exceeds him in that field, having a very analytical and methodical personality that. However, he is not good at socializing, making his relationships with others much closer and has less friends. He serves as batman's redemption and assistant through one of his darkest periods, after Jason's death.
Damian represents the gravitas and ego of batman, in the form of being a very arrogant and theatrical person who constantly keeps his chest puffed up to intimidate everyone around him. He serves as batman's question about legacy and what he should do after he gets too old to batman.
(Personal opinion, I'd rather have terry mcguiness as batman after bruce, with tim becoming a P.I, jason doing his own shit, dick happily retiring and Damian manging the league of assassins or sum)
Not to mention he’s the only one that didn’t initially have a traumatic past or harsh upbringing. He didn’t need that to become Robin and he felt normal and relatable. Now they just made him the complete opposite.
@@silverprimus321boi9 i love batman beyond as a elseworld story as it is but not the main timeline cause except terry every vbody ending is bad
My issue with Tim is when he morphed back into Robin, and DC didn't know what to do with him. After the timeline was reset, he should've returned as Red Robin
He should’ve had his own mantle by now. Red Robin isn’t even his own mantle [>
Red Robin is not a identity, it’s still Robin with a color attached
He needs to retire
@@kaineshigaraki5253 yet it was his best after Robin. Honestly I blame Damian for all of Tim's redundancies he's been given.
@@jaredgarcia8638 I blame the writers
@@o.8.p149 good point
Pre new 52 Tim Drake was peak
Exactly
1989-2011
@@BasketCase420 Yes
Yep, then they nerfed him to crap to push the other members of the family.
His stand against ras al ghul and ras calling him detective was one of the coolest moments for me
While he is my favorite, I think the problem with Tim is an example of why so many miss the pre 52, Red Robin was him at his best in a sense and then New 52 skipped his Robin years so they can't just put him back unless they come with a new identity to make everyone happy that makes sense, reminds me of my problem with Damian right now where he's still Robin
damian is back with batman in batman vs robin issue 5 i think the put him back with batman because of the brave and the bold movie
@@khayamirshad210 yeah I had a feeling that would be the case, I'm just not getting a new Robin in my lifetime I guess
I'm Ok with Damian being the final Robin, when there's more than 4 people in a mantle it all starts to blend in at some point and it becomes hard to tell who's who.
Red Robin pre 52 was so good. Robin came the closest to being the Red Robin from Kingdom Come. And the book really read like a year one book with more support.
Totally agree. Tim is doing well in his new series, actually. He's at the top of his detective game. However, he should be Red Robin instead of Robin.
As someone who read all of the Robin/Red Robin comics, I'd say what made Tim different from the others is that he was the most relatable/Realistic. He was the Spider-Man of DC. Tim had his parents and dealt with real issues that plague school systems and our childhood. The Robin comics segwayed a lot of kidlike wonder into a darkness that children and parents feared, like school shootings and the death of classmates. Back then, they were trying to make Tim the next Batman, in a way, a master combatant as he trained with the military and lady shiva, as well as the next big detective. As someone mentioned before, Tim made the robin mantle cool, and what we all love about it stems from Tim, not Dick. What made the Red Robin run great was, despite the name, this was Tim at his peak, and the death of Bruce allowed him to go off on his own; I'd argue he was just as far from the batfamily as Jason as Tim was contemplating killing on many occasions and targeting many members of the justice league/batfamily if they had gone rogue. He was more Batman than Dick wore the mantle at the time. Tim had the reader's thoughts. He talked about how odd things were and even questioned Bruce, as fans have been doing for years.
I disagree that Stephine was a core character that defined Tim. It's not to say she wasn't and to undermine the storylines they went through together, but I believe Tim's defining moments were when he was primarily alone, and that was One year later era (sort of as he was part of the teen titans) and Red Robin. I might be slightly biased, as I never liked the Stephine Brown character. I couldn't ever see an adult Tim dating her as he went from a chill and full-of-life young man to a dark, cold, and calculating one; even after he fixed his issues with Dick and Damian, it was a lasting effect.
What made Tim at his peek during Red Robin was that we had a character who was once the light to Bruce's world and had a normal childhood, but once everything began to be taken away from him as it was to Bruce, we notice that Bruce had sorta "corrupted" Tim. Alfred mentions that he had hoped Tim becoming Robin would make Bruce lighter, but it only darkened Tim significantly. And once Bruce had died, Tim had an identity crisis and became a Red Hood Lite, as in he brutalized enemies to get what he wanted but never killed them even if it crossed his mind. I always considered Tim a darker version of Spider-Man/Sherlock Holmes during his one year later, and Red Robin runs.
I definitely. And unlike Dick and Jason, whom had years to establish themselves as Nightwing and Red Hood, Tim time as Red Robin was very short, especially before and after flashpoint. Tim became Red Robin around 2009 which was two years before the flashpoint event happened, and in the last few issues of the Red Robin series, you can tell that there were more stories and ideas that the writers at the time wanted to explore but couldn’t.
@@xanderg.1070 Extactly. While I believe New 52 was great for some characters it certainly destroyed others. The Red Robin comics were setting up interesting storylines that would have certainly defined the character in history, though I could be wrong.
I really love seeing when someone loves one of my favorite characters as much as I do. And honestly, I never really liked Stephanie either. Not because she's a bad character but just because she isn't teally the type of character I like.
@@BobMarley-tm1st Similar thought process as well. To say she is horribly written is a disservice to the character, but one is allowed to admit they aren't a fan of the character. I've heard a lot of people say that about Tim and while I believe it's mostly because of ignorance of the character they still have the right to believe said opinion.
Tim Drake truly is the middle child of DC.
@@katz7609 As a middle child myself, I hate how true that is.
I never understood why Tim stopped being Red Robin. Yeah the name is a little meh, but his first RR costume was cool as hell. To me, having Tim grow up was the best choice they've made.
At least being Red Robin is better than regressing to Robin
I for one would love a run of Damien and Tim being robin at the same time. Leading to some funny and insightful conversations as the child assassin son of Batman and the intelligent son of Gotham who represents the bat family's heart. Their interactions while under Bartmans watch could lead to some actual meaningful ties we never had in things like battle for the cowl. Tim being the detective and Damien being more the dark knight.
That's a great idea.
How didn't do this yet is beyond me.
Batman having two kid robins with him out on patrol would be crazy, especially when they start to bond and now are competing for how many criminals they can take down while Batman just watches from a gargoyle catching stragglers
I could already see it: Tim is the one that earns the role through hard work and detective smarts. Damien is the one with the natural skills and sees it as his birthright. They're both right. Which ward/part of Batman is the most important? The genius detective or the martial artist/tactician?
You can't have 2 robins at the same time. It doesn't make sense. There wouldn't be enough time or space for both
The problem was they made Damien while Tim was still Robin. With him being smarter then Bruce you would think they could have him become a Detective type character, but that would require DC Writers smart enough to write a Detective.
I really thought that when Conner and Bart came back we would get him running around with them again. Sadly those Writers had NO idea how to write those Characters and just ruined that idea.
Bendis Young Justice was the worst fold DC has ever had, They did damn near nothing but roam around like dickheads for 90% of the comic.
I would say that the problem with Tim is not redundancy but DC wanting to replace him as robin. You said it before, his identity was robin. Much like how Bruce Wayne is Batman and Clark Kent is Superman. However unlike them, Tim was never truly linked to that role and wasn’t given enough agency in his time as robin nor did he really leave of his own choice
So… redundancy.
@@ez6888 not in of it self but close to
Tim was linked to the role as much as any other Robin, and thank god he wasn’t linked more because if he was forever tied to being the Boy Wonder, then how could he ever grow up? He’s really be nowhere now. Robin is not a permanent role, it’s a mantle for junior heroes to learn and practice and then eventually do something else. Now we just need to find out what that something else would be for Tim.
I think they should do a refresher book for Tim Drake where he leads a double life as a detective for the NYPD or his own agency and as Red Robin (or whatever moniker he wants). Maybe something like a Daredevil lens. That way he can cross paths with Batman and the fam cos hes the smartest they will go to him with hard mysteries and they can do alot of stories with intertwining plots with mysteries. I think Tim is more of a lone wolf type he doesnt need a team, maybe reunite him with stephanie but thats all he needs. Hes interesting enough himself, hes seasoned hes skilled he can handle himself. Hes basically Batman but without the vengeance only the detective side.
Perfectly said
Perfect
Tim is my favorite dc character. I feel like the issues with him is that writers don't know what to do since Damian has been introduced.
What made tim special to me was that he was the only robin that wanted to be robin (a sidekick), and the fact he is the smartest of the group/best detective. So why not make him like a modern oracle? He becomes the man behind the chair, he helps the superhero community, hell since alfred is gone i am kinda surprised tim doesn't help out more in the batcave. Making him the new oracle gives him a purpose in the universe and fits his skills.
I think a big problem is the New 52 condensing everything Batman related down. Pre-N52, we saw Tim becoming Robin, the only active Robin, we saw him fill the role in a new and interesting way that helped him be unique. In the New 52, that's all vague backstory. There's several real world years between Tim and Damien being Robin for the transfer to happen. With the reboot, all the robins exist simultaneously. Why would Bruce Wayne need to fill in after Todd when Damien's right in the wings?
The best way they could have used tim in this scenario where bruce is alive, has another robin and a huge team backing him up, is to make tim quit being red robin/robin and make him fully focus on his passion (like they tried 60+ times but keep forgetting it), and to make it more interesting maybe make his last story as red robin/robin, him finally realizing what he actually wants to study or work as...an actual detective. Tim from the start only became robin because as he and EVERY one knows, batman will always need a robin. While he has enjoyed being robin, he on many occasions said that he wanted to do something else with his life because while he likes being a superhero, its not his overall passion. The best way they can use tim is to finally let him move on and become a fully fledged detective (not a "superhero" detective that is mentioned to be smarter then batman but gets distracted in the middle of a fight because hes thinking bout his boyfriend and what to celebrate off panel for that comic [btw bi or not dont matter just what matters is that any change to the character shows progress on evolution and betterment, not change because why not]) anyway point is somehow tim drake who has studied for years on how to become the best robin he can be for batman who knows fighting styles from shiva and who has solved puzzles and tasks from batman who thought where nearly indecipherable, should just get the detective comics and it be about tim becoming an actual detective solving crimes and puzzles left by new or old villains in a new city somewhere, and who can maybe show up to give heroes leads to other cases, he doesn't need to continue to pretend to be a 18 year old robin when he's kind of 20 somn and should be in college. Anyway thats my view if you read all this thank you and i hope you enjoyed my lil idea and rant, have a good day everyone!
THIS IS GREAT
I... kind of like this. Making him the robin that specialised in pursuing mysteries and conspiracies would be a new one and won't at all overlap with Dick, Jason, and Barbara. Basically repurpose the tone and feel of the Red Robin run where he rarely has any support from the rest of the fam and usually work solo.
The problem with Tim Drake is that he was basically a Carrie Kelley rip-off. Still, his begin concept of it was even interesting. What set Tim apart from the other Robins was that he wasn't Batman's orphan. He had his family and a life outside of vigilantism. His relationship with Batman was more like a student and teacher. Dick and Jason saw Batman as a foster father, but Tim already had his father. So he viewed Batman more like as a boss and the Robin mantle as some sort of undercover job between his civilian life. He was the closest the DC had to Peter Parker.
But in 2000s, DC just decided to do away with all these aspects that made Tim different. They killed his parents and made him another Bruce orphan.
Damian's arrival was just the final nail in the coffin to bury Tim in irrelevancy.
Unfortunately, with Damian dominating everything, I find it very difficult for Tim to become relevant again. It does n't help that his origin from him relies heavily on Dick and Jason to function. Dick, Jason and Damian are easier to adapt to other media in comparison. It was no wonder that Tim Drake in the animated series had to literally riped of all Jason's origin as a street kid to generate a more interesting episode.
Tim Drake became redundant when Damian Wayne became Robin. I always thought it would've made sense for Damian to assume a bat-themed identity to drive home his status as Bruce's biological son.
DC seriously drop the ball with Tim, and I'm still annoyed by it.
ooh yeah. I can see why they'd make him a robin but I feel like Damian would want to separate himself, especially based off of some of Damians comics? he seems like he's gearing up to become batman or something bat adjacent
Tim was actually doing great when Damian became Robin. Tim was getting a lot of development as Red Robin and Fabian Nicieza had big plans for him and his side characters. But then Flashpoint happened and DC completely annihilated his character and ignored all Nicieza's plans for him.
You made tons of great points in this video. You also pretty much hit the nail on the head for me about the bi Tim story. I don't care about how people feel about the red robin name, but Tim's red robin solo comic is where his character should be right now and I just don't understand why it's so hard for DC to get that.
Tim and the young justice generation of characters have just continued to be left behind or frozen when they should have already moved past their sidekick lives.
If the writers and editorials at DC weren’t so ignorant, we could have a teen titans with Tim’s generation, giving them somewhat of a third chance, while having a young justice with Damian’s generation. Especially since the titans are now the main superhero team of the dawn of DCU era, symbolizing the theme of legacy.
I completely agree with Tim just being a redundancy at this point and the writers not knowing what to do with him but what's funny is that the solution is easy 1. give him a new code name move him completely away from the robin title maybe not even a bird I saw a really cool concept art with Tim taking on the mantel of the grey ghost which is genius, second move tim to his own city and start to develop his own villains , 3rd Tim is a detective so let him be one focus his books on detective stories showing of his skill in deduction. He could be like a the question like character and his books could read like mystery novels.
Personally Tim is one of my favourite Robin, so I kinda resent how he got poorly treated. To me his spot in the Robins always was clear: he was the detective/brain. I always saw him as the most mental-oriented of the Robins.
Regarding him being bi, I personally have only one issue with it: they broke him up with Spoiler for this. And I really liked these two together.
I think that Young Justice (The show) dealt with Tim perfectly. All of the robins have a fairly easy placement in DC to me.
Dick was the first robin and works well having time between leaving Batman and becoming Nightwing where he founds the Teen Titans imo. I think that's the cleanest way to work out Dick's timeline.
Jason is already very distinct and Red Hood works as the loner of the bat family that is willing to go out on his own for a lot of his stories while coming back for big events and stories.
To me, Tim works great as Red Robin and is the leader of a bat family-based team. In Young justice, this consisted of Spoiler, Orphan, and I think its Arrowette? So like. I think if you drop Arrowette and replace her with Duke or something like that and give them a team together, they would all work great together as a Bat Family teen comic akin to a more undercover/covert Teen Titans.
Then that leaves Damien room to be the core Robin of new stories and whatnot. I think he's pretty clearly distinct already so not much I need to add here.
It probably doesn't help that he's constantly having his character derailed, his history retconned, and periodically disappears out of the comics entirely only to reappear a few months or years later without explanation.
I personally think Tim is the most logical replacement for Bruce as Batman. Dick has forged a place for himself as Nightwing. Jason is Red Hood, the darker Batfamily member. Stephanie is back to being Batgirl, which fits her arc. And Damian I feel is too determined to become Batman one day that his arc would be best served in coming to the realization that he doesn't have to be his father.
Tim is the smart one. The detective. He's not the best fighter, but his tech could make up for that. And he doesn't necessarily want to be Batman, meaning he's not trying too hard to be Bruce. The issue is, until he becomes Batman, he needs a purpose. And Bruce isn't going anywhere for long, so Tim will never really get his time as Batman.
every time they make tim batman he is evil
So long story short:
Tim Drake: You took everything from me.
Damien Wayne: Because, you don't even know who you are.
Which is so weird since so much of his Robin run sort of hinges on how firmly he does know who he is.
Out of the 4 Robin's Tim has it the worst. They literally have no idea what to do with the poor guy
I really liked the casually comics about tim drake. I wished they just revived the gotham knights label and put tim, cassandra, Stephany, Kate, Luke and Duke there.
DC should just return Detective Comics into the book for the Batfamily like they did in early Rebirth
I remember you saying you dyed your hair to seem approachable at events. Now you're a comicbook institution and super recognizable anywhere. Props to you man, nice watching you grow. Warm regards from Peru. You've been an important company in very hard times.
The evil Batman Tim Drake is originally came from "Teen Titans" Vol. 3, issue #20-#23, published in 2005. The story arc is titled "Titans Tomorrow" with also evil Superman Connor Kent
The biggest problem with Tim is Damien.
Since Tim never got a defining post Robin identity like Dick and Jason did, and Damien becomes Robin, Tim in just left by the wayside,
I know they tried the Red Robin thing but it’s too close to his previous persona
I wish they'd done the original plan. He was supposed to be the third Blue Beetle.
What a great vid. Thank you for your hard work on everything
Honestly speak
It really just sounds like the best thing for Tim is to permanently end up with Stephanie brown
You can have him be the one batman family member that found love and figured out how to have stable relationship.
I Honestly agree with the idea that writers don't like stable relationships because they lack drama
Making Tim Drake bisexual was unnecessary. If they had nothing new to add for Tim Drake, they should have ended it in the end of the Detective Comics run where he gave up being Robin and drove with Stephanie to college.
This is how I would have written Tim Drake and his history. His origins would be the same as his pre flashpoint origin, where he found out the identity of Batman and Nightwing, ask and convince Bruce to become the next Robin, and after some training, he becomes Robin.
He would work alongside Batman, and work with some members of the Bat Family at the time such as Oracle, Batwoman, Nightwing, Orphan, and Huntress. He would even have his own adventures like in his Robin series by Chuck Dixion, he would have an on and off relationship with characters such as Spoiler, Bernard, and even Tammy Fox, while also building his friendship with Kon-El/Conner Kent Superboy and Bart Allen Impulse and form Young Justice. After the events of Graduation Day arc, where Donna was believed to be dead by a Superman robot, Young Justice disbanded, and then a year later, Cyborg, Starfire, Beast Boy, and Raven invited Robin, Superboy, Impulse, and Cassie Samdsmark Wonder Girl to Teen Titans. His father would be killed by Captain Boomerang and would be officially adopted by Bruce making him Tim Drake Wayne.
A year later, he would lead the Teen Titans with some other new members coming and going such as Red Devil, Mia Dearden Speedy, Rose Wilson Ravager, Jamie Reyes Blue Beetle, Bombshell, Bunker, and Solstice. During that time, Damian would appear, and would have a feud with each other over who should be Robin.
After Bruce was attacked by Darkseid and was believed to be dead, and after the Battle of the Cowl event, Dick becomes the new Batman, and has Damian as the next Robin. Feeling lost, Tim becomes Red Robin that was previously used by the villain Anarchy, where he finds out about Bruce’s death, while battling Ra’s Al Ghul.
After he defeated Ra’s, he reconciles with Dick, and in his adventures with Dick and Damian, Tim and Damian started to get along well and Tim helps Damian to be become a good person and Robin. During his own adventures, Red Robin would start having a more serious relationship with Spoiler, and would often be part of the Teen Titans, whom are lead by Wonder Girl. He would also team up with other Bat family members.
When Bruce came back as Batman, and made Batman Incorporated and Batman International. He would have Red Robin and Batwoman to create Gotham Knights that consisted of Spoiler, Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batwing (Luke Fox), Bluebird, The Signal, and Clayface (later Harley Quinn, Clownhunter, Azeral, and Dark Knight (Jace Fox).
And in the Dawn of DCU era, I would have Red Robin, mainly be a detective superhero, that would travel in different cities to solve crime cases that other heroes wouldn’t be able to solve, and I would have his own rogue gallery mainly consist of assassins and lesser known villains such as KGBEAST and Catman. And at the same time he would be a part time member of Teen Titans, similar to how Batman was a part time member of the Justice League in the DCAU, and I would also have Spoiler teaming up with him from time to time, while she is working with Batgirl and Oracle.
This is such a cool idea man
Always enjoy your takes on things
If they were gonna make Tim bi just make him dare superboy💀
Fr. TimKon's a popular ship that's been around for decades. DC was too chicken to go through with it and paired Tim up with a boring rando nobody cares about for his first same sex relationship so no one wins
When Chuck Dixon himself He isnt gay He isnt gay, but He should Had also a relative normal Life too but DC really was quick to kill them Off when Dixon left
He coming after all the Robins/Batfamily
LOL, I'll take a break and look at the Flash family next week, but yes I intend to hit every issue I'd seen in comics in 20 years
I think the main problem with Tim is he's used as a doormat. I love him, but he does nothing no matter how much shit he goes through. As soon as an arc is resolved he doesn't change, there's no development - the ONLY thing that permanently changed is his identities (Robin and then Red Robin), everything else is just like a portrait; people might bump into it but it always readjusts itself. And it's sad because he has so much potential. Honestly he has as much right to separate himself from the bats as Jason did and more rights to it than Dick did when he became Nightwing, but he doesn't. And I think he doesn't because they have no personality to go off of for a proper completely solo arc.
Don't get me wrong, I love Tim, and I know he does have a personality. The problem is the writers don't seem to.
The DC's Peter Parker.
@@mayotango1317 Lol don't ever insult Peter Parker like that again you psychopath
@@prolastmedia6171 Cof Zeb Wells cof
@@mayotango1317 We don't show say that name. That man is a plague. He wrote for she hulk...
@@mayotango1317 It says this comment only has 4 replies but I only see your 2 replies?
Tim was my favorite character and his friendship with Bart, Cassie and Connor was my favorite growing up. It does suck.
I saw fanart of Tim adopting the Identity of The Grey Ghost, which I think is a great way to differentiate himself.
The real problem with Tim Drake is adaptation. All the cartoons keep taking everything distinct about Tim Drake and giving it to Dick and Jason
Like they gave his one year later suit to Jason and his hacker shtick to Young Justice Nightwing. It's terrible
One of the many things that didn't make any sense with Dick firing Tim as Robin, in addition to unilaterally making the decision and picking the psycho murder toddler that tried to kill Tim a few times, is that Dick himself is a former Robin who never saw himself as Batman's subordinate, inferior, or apprentice. In either the pre-Crisis or Post-Crisis continuities, Dick and Bruce always butt heads on this note and a huge factor in Dick forming the Teen Titans time after time was his assertion that he was his own man that could be a hero without being Batman's administrative assistant. It rang really hollow and was blatantly and editorial decision and not driven by the character himself.
i always like the “the robin hood” when talking about the “robin family”
Love the details
You forgot to mention Tim helped Stephanie through her pregnancy and adoption.
Everything used to come back to the status quo in comics. Then they started messing with characters sexuality, and that’s not something that can be undone
Let's be real here Tim's gonna get back with Stephanie I've seen this shit before, him and Bernard would last but not forever.
Also did we ever get an answer to Spoilers daughter and where she is?
@@kwayneboy1524 Probably doesn't exist anymore. Aborted out of continuity.
@@CalderTF2 Tim and Stephanie being young parents could be a good opportunity for new stories
@@HELLO_KORO You’re probably right. In my headcanon, Tim and Stephanie (after years of marriage since 2016, or five years before Dawn of DC) would meet her daughter and tell her everything she [the daughter] needs to know about them, including her origin and backstory as a superhero and joining the Bat-Family. This would cause Stephanie to spend time with her daughter from time to time, causing the daughter to take her mother’s mantle as the second Spoiler and for Stephanie and Tim to try to have kids (whom, in the future, would make their debut as Cardinal, Gray Ghost, and Redbird in their teens or young adulthood).
@@joshuaingobo1559 that sounds awesome, I would love to see an in cannon Gray Ghost. Idk why Spoilers mantle becoming Gray Ghost just clicks for me.
Honestly the best storyline they could do for him is to have him tackle the issue of figuring out who he is aside from being another Robin. Because he's not becoming Batman unfortunately, and he's not even in Batman Beyond as an adult. Even Damiens Pet is in it!
So we have Dick Grayson who has a solid identity as Nightwing and is basically the golden child of DC, Jason Todd as Red Hood as the black sheep (who the writers don’t know what to do with), and Damien Wayne who is basically Batman lite as the current Robin.
Tim Drake is the only one that I can’t put a solid identity on. Jason may have his issues with the writers not knowing where they want to go with him, but at least he has a defined identity.
I think Tim Drake was at his best as Red Robin. It kept his roots as the quintessential Robin while evolving him into something more. What I think we need is another detective comics idea but with Tim as Red Robin again.
DROPPING BANGER AFTER BANGER WITH THIS SERIES BRO
Honestly, in an animated or cinematic universe I would love for Tim to be a successor to Batman and actually become the new Batman
The Tynion Detective Comics run was the perfect way to retire Tim from the Robin role and transition him into the next phase of his life. He was getting ready to enroll in college and he and Steph were planning to move in together. He was progressing!
But then, DC undid all of that development, and now Tim is rudderless.
Hopefully, Chip Zdarsky will give him new direction and purpose. Tim being Bi isn’t the problem, it’s the execution that’s upsetting.
His previous relationship with Stephanie is completely being disrespected, similar to how Marvel is treating Spider-Man’s relationship with Mary Jane
I know right? His relationship with Stephanie being treated as a complete joke.
@@kareemguimba9714 Tim has found happiness and contentment with Bernard and I love their relationship because Tim is finally is happy and he has found himself
@@donaldallen9804 He already was happy and content with Stephanie......
I don't mind him being bi, but the way they wrote it was just awful. Especially having him and steph break up off screen with little to no explanation as to why.
Nice video. I love full timelines of characters.
I’ve never been happier to not be a Tim Drake fan, Jheez I’m sorry for y’all’s loss 🕊️🙏🏾
I will never forget how growing pains from the animated series sent me into tears 😭 damn you Tim!!!! 💔
I'd like these type of videos on more characters! Miles , Bart, Spider-Woman, Kyle Rayner so many options
Love how you describe Jason Todd “he was blown up” 😂
Tim needs his very own bad ass costume. Give him a new name preferly a bird that stalks prey. Because he’s a detective and that’s it.
All i can understand from this is that DC storylines are written by monkeys.
Always thought Tim should’ve been the one to create the Red X persona
completely agree
They could still Retcon that in sense Titans Academy teased there being multiple Red X's after Bruce.
@@HELLO_KORO could then do some spy-craft either solo or with Checkmate or Argus
@@GilmerEricSmith i think those 2 got disbanded by Leviathan, maybe Tim recreates and leads spyral those guys were always close with the Batfamily
@@HELLO_KORO hopefully he finds his Jeremy Adams, someone who actually likes the character and has ideas for him
My boys from the 90s have had the redundancy problem in modern days. Tim, Kyle, Connor Hawke, wally, superboy, bart, wonder girl, Ben riley, the new warriors, dan ketch, etc.
The big 2 seem find ways to f around these characters constantly.
Time to bring in Joker Jr. the best Tim Drake story.
Thank you for this , Tim is my favourite character in batfamilly and i felt like no one really cares about whats going on with him even tho he was at some point in time THE ROBIN
I always thought a Tim and Jason duo book would be cool, on some Spider-Man/Deadpool type shit with a smart nerd who has bad luck and a mentally unstable anti hero. The two Bat Sons that DC has no direction with.
This is partially why I dislike Damian so much. I loved the pre52 Tim stuff, and when Damian knocked him out of the spotlight (when Damian feels a bit redundant himself with Jason and Cass imo). Tim has so much untapped potential, I mostly just blame DC editorial.
The way i see: If Damian was redudant he would have the same problem that Tim is having now and if Tim had more from him as character besides being Robin he would still being relevant despite Damian. Like Tim last run could be good and Damian wasn't the one who was preventing that , but it wasn't because bad writing and that more to blame for Tim situation than Damian.
@@guto5285 You are rigth
Tim Drake is the middle child of the bat family, he just exist.
It's a shame what happened to Tim, the Red Robin series was his peak and after that it has been downhill
Conner Kent’s child Martha isn’t his child. He pretended that he’s married with a kid to protect them from… villains or something.
I never used to know much about tim drake, got Gotham knights thinking robin would be Damian, but after finding out it was Tim I looked into him more and he became my favourite Robin
In DCeased when the tombstones get ready out I cried so hard
He truly was the best if them
This videos are really good Benny, hope you make more on the Green Lantern side of DC. Guy Gardner, Kyle Reyner, Atrocitus, even the New Gods
Well put
Tim Drake was better with the spoiler true love of his life
Tim Drake needs to get away from Batman to setup his own identity just like Dick had. I'd go with a detective type hero like Question and Crimson Avenger since Tim is regarded as a great detective.
ps... Raven's new52 costume is great! It's rule 63 Femto and works for her going full demon.
Great vid
The issue of redundancy is the same problem with Barry Allen and Hal Jordan too. The ENTIRE era to reestablish heroes who were dead for decades plus a wack-ass reboot plus a retconned correction ensures a cycle of redundancy line-wide. Did i mention that NO ONE ever asked for any of this?
I think the problem is that Tim Drake was such a great Robin, they didn’t know what to do with him outside of being Robin. That’s why he is my favorite Robin. But it’s hard imagining him outside the Robin role.
I think the other issue is they give too much to Dick Grayson. First he’s Robin, then he’s the leader of the Titans, then he’s Nightwing.
I would just have Dick go from Robin to Nightwing. Then have Tim Drake be the leader of the Titans instead as Red Robin, while Damian eventually becomes Robin.
The problems with Tim started in the early 2000s after Chuck Dixon left. DC's editorial had been chomping at the bit to kill off Tim's dad for years to make him an orphan like Bruce and Dick, completely missing the point that it was the fact that he had more normal life than those 2 and wasn't like them that made him popular. After Dixon left, they killed Stephanie, they killed Jack Drake, then they even killed his step-mom in quick succession, and those of his supporting cast who they didn't kill disappeared as he didn't have a reason to go to school or be Tim Drake anymore. At that point, he was no longer the normal one or the relatable one. He was just a miniature version of Bruce Wayne, something we'd seen multiple times already. His story no longer involved going to school or having normal friends or concerns. It was only natural that he be replaced as Robin soon after that with a new character who was actually distinct from Bruce and Dick in a way Tim could never be again. The one thing he had going for him was that his past was still canon, and his then-current stories could build on that past. The Nu52 took even that away, removing any life he ever had as Tim Drake and making him just another Robin, the one who had no purpose existing. When they did start bringing his past back years later, it was too late, and they didn't try to make him the normal or relatable one. Stephanie actually stepped in to fill that niche, first when she was going to college in her Batgirl series, and then as the designated 'normal person's POV character' in the bat-family. The only thing left of what Tim used to be was his relationship with Steph. And now even that's gone. DC should never have killed his father or Stephanie in 2004, and never have written Identity Crisis or War Games. If anything they should have let him retire like he always wanted and made Stephanie Robin for real instead of as a ploy. By the Nu52 there was no point to him existing anymore and he should have been erased instead of Stephanie and Cassandra.
This is exactly how i feel. Every bit of it. I love tim, but at this point i would have preferred him to retire. It would left a bigger impact, and a great character development. Makes sense, since even in the post crisis continuity he states he din't wanna do this for long.
I wish you'd give some links or a list of issues you talk about I'd love to read some of these I am getting back into reading digital comics. I was a nerd back when it wasn't cool and then when it became cool I stopped.
Red Robin In Arkham City was so fun to use
Shoulda came back in Arkham knight
I feel like Tim should be a detective series they have more of a chance to make Tim an interesting characters but they have no clue what to do with him
Tim drake could’ve have a worlds greatest deteciveish run imo and had him somewhere different like nightwing in bloodhaven would’ve been great to see Tim making a name for himself somewhere where they need a different type of hero
Woah I asked and he actually delivered. Surprising but thank you! Was really wondering more about Tim
I grew up watching teen titans with Tim. I loved him. Didn’t start reading comics until later and was really confused as to where he had gone.
Dick is becoming DC's poster boy, he's charming and fun, hes a fun partner for Bruce but he's an even greater character on his own leading the teen Titans. Jason is the edgy robin, everybody likes red hood because he's DC's punisher, more recently he's leaving that and becoming more normal but personally I've don't find him as interesting anymore.
Tim's only thing is that he's smart and really attached to Batman. Which I don't hate, I like seeing Bruce have such a loyal companion but I feel like Tim gets nothing to do when he's with Bruce.
Then Damian shows up and I like Damian a lot but he takes the spotlight from Jason and Tim. He's the new edgy violent robin but he's also Bruce's new partner.
So Tim has very little to do and then he gets sidelined by every other member of the bat family. I would love to see a Batman beyond like story where Tim gets to be Cassandra Cains robin, I think Cass being much more martial focused and less detective focused and Tim has the opposite I'd love to see these two have a buddy cop series. Also diversity is cool but Tim and Steph have more chemistry then his boyfriend I'm sorry, it makes sense it just isn't good, just my opinion though.
Jason's Edgy in "i have trauma i can't let go of and it defines my actions" way
While Damians edgy in a "i fucked up in a bad environment, let my right my wrongs" way and with the how he's been since 2011 he's more of a brat or Sorrowful Robin.
I would aim Tim to have abother bird persona and the lead of a group of misfits like the time with clayface, use their skills to problem solving in Gotham and other cities, a colorful detective group ready for throwing punches yet not so dark like bats and so strong as the Titans and the league. More aproachable, having an office and dealing with the traumas and relationship that stems from the group.
I only know him from wondering who that guy was in the batmetal videos and how he fits into the bat family.
TIM ISN'T THE PROBLEM, DAMIAN IS.
And Bernard (I really hate him and that name(no offence to any bernards out there))
Tim is DCs Ben Reilly
Tim Drake is not only my favourite robin actually my favourite superhero,
I think like you said in this he needs a writer to make a clear vision and direction for him and hopefully get his own permanently unique identity that build on the Robin one I remember seeing a reddit post were somebody came up with the ‘Cardinal’ name which i loved,
I think he needs his own form of nemesis like joker and batman, deathstroke and nightwing, Bane and Red hood at the moment and I’ve always thought punchline would do this very well as people who both went out of their way to join both Batman and Joker, I think that would also give punchline a purpose she’s been needing
Also i disagree on that Time Drake has to end up with Stephanie brown, i think people feel that way because their much more connected to that then his relationship with Bernard, the main problem with that being people have absolutely no connection to bernard cause he was essentially a random background character almost an NPC prior to then getting together, there wasn’t long build up like there should have been felt more like a random hookup that stayed
I agree, cuz in the Red Robin 2009 series, they were kinda lending more to that. I generally love the idea of Tim being a detective and superhero that would go to different places to solve mysteries and crime cases that other heroes like Batman, Red Hood, and Nightwing wouldn’t be able to solve or go to. And as for rogue galleries, they were a few villains that were set up to be villains for Red Robin such as the
Council of Spiders, Secret Six, and even having Catman as Tim’s archnemesis.
I also think Cardinal would be a great codename for him as it would help him stand out and fits his character. I even thought about calling him that in my own version of the dcu, and have KGBEAST as his archenemy.
Do u have audio version of ur videos? So I can hear ur voice at work 😭😭 I’m jp
Finally someone finally brought up that Tim's been running into a wall for years as a character
I agree with pretty much everything in the video except for the Tim being bi stuff. I think it’s fine that he’s bi, its really a non issue (and for those of you who are mad that he’s not with Stephanie, freakin relax. He’s bi, he’s still attracted to women. If things with Bernard don’t work out, which it might cause he’s kinda boring, then he’ll get back with Stephanie. Comics always go back to the status quo. Personally, think DC should just make their own version of jubilee and have Tim get with her, cause they were really adorable together when DC and Marvel had that crossover).
You hit the nail on the head with the other issues though. Tim needs to get propped back up as a major player in the bat family and to have his own core character motivations. Like you said, Nightwing is the “better than Batman”, Jason is the “Batman with guns”, Damian was the “out of control Robin” but now he’s sort of evolving into something different. They need to establish or reestablish Tim’s primary motivations. Him having a primary role in Chip zdarsky’s recent fail safe storyline is a good start since he was great in that story, but they need to keep that going and continue to develop his character.
Lol I saw somewhere that the ONLY comic book character that will stay dead forever is Uncle Ben 😭😭💀
I'm a Tim Drake fan he's my favorite comic book character and the last 12 years have been torture.
Poor Tim was the meme of Scarlet Witch saying "You took everything from me!" bc DC reeeally took so much from the guy! Hell instead of Dick Grayson they should have just used Tim in the Young Justice series to really give him some spotlight. They could have used his dad as a way to blackmail him by villians and maybe even show how he could become Batman later down the line in a positive way🤷🏿♂️
Once they changed him into something he wasn't I lost respect for the company and still refuse to buy into the fake new narrative when the creator himself stated who he really is.
New game idea... take a shot when Benny says redundancy
I could fix him. There are plenty of ways of making him his own thing, but vintage comic writers are burned out and new ones don’t know what they are doing.
I see what you mean about Tim Drake's sexuality, it does feel like Tim was made Bi because they needed something to do with him... Which as a Bi person, It sucks that he's just gonna get known specifically because he is Bi by new readers. Oh well, atleast I have that dreamy Jonathan Kent to look up to
What IS also noticeable everyone Talks ABOUT Robin being now gay or bi ,None Care about the Love interest He IS now gay for, Like they nuked a great Relationship Just for 5 minute Internet Fame and barely did anything with it? Same with Jon Kent which IS even creepier since they ages him Up for No reason to have him Hook Up with a random gay Dude Just to get some spicy headlines . Nobody Cares about that Love interest either