Chasing the lands is STUPID: Part 2
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ส.ค. 2020
- This video expands on the previous one and clarifies how this method works. Erik also answers questions people had on the previous video.
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I’m a double Distinguished master and an old school reloader from the 60’s and always neck sized until I viewed your 2 classic videos. Made a lot of sense and my consistency and accuracy improved. So I’m recently getting into ELR shooting and looking for sub .5MOA groups while chasing lands. Since your previous advice worked very well I tried your seating procedure and now I’m at .28MOA average. Thanks for teaching this old dog new tricks...
I'm glad it worked for you. :)
Jesus, im new into reloading, so seating depth really has that much impact? Glad i found this guy
@@skie6282 I hear that bro,me too!
@@skie6282 Wait till you see his tuner videos....
I love this video!!!! Thanks you for putting this up....
I have been a handloader for 16 years and most of my loads are for hunting and have based most my lengths on Magazine fit and have gotten lucky a number of times... but I am now playing with a 338 RUM and it is a single shot follower and have been using the yellow box 300gr and trying the US 869.. (previous owner of gun swore by it.. long story for this gun).... I realy wanted to try and shoot this freedom seed launching tool out to 1 mile thinking I may not have the tools (competition seating die or the money 338 seeds are not cheap and freedom seed launch powder as well.. or easy to get in the current time) may put this one on the back burner for right now and stick to the smaller ones 260 Rem and 6.5 Grendel
Thanks for this video
As erosion increases freebore, your node stays in the zone because you went to the longest length within your accuracy node minus 1/1000th. This example helps understand and extend barrels life, chasing lands shortens barrel life. Fantastic video sir!!
I realize that not everyone learns at the same rate or picks up on stuff as quickly as others, but coming from a %100 newbie (me), I'm surprised that there had to be a part 2 video. The first one explained everything really well. Thank you for your knowledge and videos, Erik.
Right with you
I did exactly what you taught in part 1. Worked perfectly! I will never go back to my old way.
Right, he explained it wonderfully. I can’t wait to try at the range.
Do you measure to bullet tip or ogive when seating with this method?
@@Ryan_ph1l1p when you find jam, measure both ways. From what I understand, comparators are different from each manufacturer. However, your comparator will be your measuring constant for you. Once you have that value don't seat beyond it until your accuracy node moves there.
@@Ryan_ph1l1p Ogive is what meets the lands my friend, not the bullet tip.
That means you’re teachable, a lot are not.
Wish I had this video 8 years ago when I started reloading my own freedom seeds!! Really appreciate your content and I just wanted to say from South Africa, thank you sir.
Thank you for your time and experience. Thank you for being patient for those of us who want to learn more.
Wow, I have reloaded for 20+ years and never heard it put into this perspective. You do have me excited to go put this to the test. Thank you for sharing!
I’ve been reloading since 1969. Been using this technique since. You name it I’ve owned and loaded for it. Your first video one of the best I’ve seen. It’s just so simple and self explanatory. I’m doing load development and precision rifle testing most days for a company just finished for the morning. Just find where the bullet is jammed into the lands or call it zero position. Everything is now one way backwards seating the bullet deeper. So it’s irrelevant what cartridge I’m testing and loading for I simply within seconds find that zero position - jam position then start twenty thou back and proceed with more as required
so the only variable that change is the seating depth? Powder charge stay constant?
Finally! an explanation on tinkering with seating depth and dealing with mag length. Keep making stuff like this oh wise one...and absolutely want a "Small Groups Matter" shirt
Been reloading 40+ years. These two videos are pure gold,makes this subject very clear,and simple.Thankyou..
I've been reloading for a year or so and my results have been less than stellar. This kind of information helps me see things I'm doing wrong that I didn't even know I was doing wrong. Thanks.
Eric, thank you for what you share with us. I recently heard that people work to master their craft, whatever that may be, and once they’ve mastered it they often “mentor” others. Thanks again!
Watched this video, did a node test based my on my mags because I shoot a ar10. Found the sweet spot .025 off from max mag. Tightened my grouping from .600 to .400. Can't thank you enough.
probably one of the best videos on reloading for precision
I tried reloading about 5 years ago and a lot of the information I found on the web was overwhelming. Ended up giving up on reloading after about 80 rounds.
Saw your Common Sense Reloading video and the chasing the land series. Love the info and it is easy to understand. You made me excited to try reloading again.
Your comment about changing the seating depth blew my mind.
Thanks for everything!
Anyone who withholds great information like this is a disgrace to the discipline. Information is free. Skill is earned. Keep making videos Erik
I once asked my martial arts instructor why he didn't charge as much as other instructors/dojos, he told me... "Knowledge not shared is wasted." 😊
@@BigDave423 my father felt the same way. He would teach anyone anything he could. Always said when someone passes all the knowledge over their lifetime is lost unless you teach others to carry it forward. Miss him a lot.
@@pewdeepew9620 - That's also the way I am. Placing special emphasis on the "why". Who, what, how, when, where, can all vary in importance depending on the situation, but it's the "why" which ties them together. It allows people to truly understand things and learn, not just memorize statistics and/or trivia.
@@BigDave423 I was fortunate enough to be taught first hand about many things in life. It has given me an edge over the years for sure. Knowledge is everything. Info is free and skill is earned. Just really hits home.
Definitely would buy a “Small Groups Matter” shirt!
same here!
No. sounds like something the Covid police would say.
Mean radius and large composite group size matters more.
I agree 1000% Erik seating depth will tune any load!! I've been loading for over 25 years. And this makes "chasing the lands crazy simple" 🤯👍Thank you! 🙏
Erik,
I learned about this in the 70s when I was shooting NRA High Power Rifle competition reloading with an RCBS single stage press. I didn’t have a lot of money being in the Air Force. Love your explanations for the hard heads. For me, it gives me the new terms and reasons. In the past, I had to learn the hard way by doing and experimentation. You have made it easy for the new guys to understand. Great Work!
Thank you!! As a new hand loader your info has helped me a ton!! I load precision gas guns and I follow your principles. Makes for common sense hand loading!! Much appreciated. Keep up the great work!
Semper Fi
Absolutely!
Been learning about how inconsistent factory ammunition effects on accuracy for past 3 minutes months testing many different brands and measuring OTB to sort into testing groups. Purchased some tools and will attempt to research more at the range.
Thank you Erik for taking the time to make these videos. They are a big help and I look forward to more
Thank you so much for spelling this out for us. It may seem simple to those who understand it right off the bat but it's taken some time for me to digest and get it all squared away. I greatly appreciate you taking the time to do these videos.
Love your work Erik. Makes perfect sense and I love your no BS delivery of the facts.
Good Health Mate👍👊✌️
Erik you rock! I followed the doctors orders today and ignored the lands while I searched for bullet seating depth on my favorite powder charge. Guess what? I found a node that's got me shooting 5/16" groups at 100 yds of Berger 168 VLD. That's with a Remington .308 factory barrel. Hahaha!!
Erik, I stumbled upon one of your hand loading videos and was impressed, but I thought.... I recognize this guy. Then you mentioned Texas Barndominiums. AH HAH!!!! Demolition Ranch Headquarters! I had been impressed enough to go check out your Texas Barndominiums youtube channel then. But this channel blows me away! I've been loading for about 6 years. I have learned so much from your videos in just the past few days! I wish I lived closer. I'd love to take your reloading class! Thank you for these videos. Truly amazing stuff!!!!
Thank you.
Is there a reloading class?
Eric. I recently took up reloading. I hold a degree in Chemical Engineering and I can tell you that your employment of the "scientific method" of experimentation is spot on for creating an optimized round for accuracy. Thanks!!
Yup, people with scientific backgrounds easily understand what he's saying. This aint rocket science, but it is science based.
@@kevinh4631 I don't think you have to be an engineer of any kind to understand what he's saying. 😊
WOW!!! I have been harbouring these questions for a couple years now and you cleared it right up. So awesome.
Thank you Eric, you are an absolute wealth of knowledge and a true gentleman for sharing that hard earned experience with us.
What a wealth of usable knowledge. I'm just getting into precision loading and this helps with understanding it so much. Thank you
Super job explaining,makes me excited to reload again.Thanks for your generous attitude and the gift of knowledge on this subject you have shared with us. Selflessness of one makes winners of us all.Well done!
Just watched these two videos again, I'm so thankful you shared this! This has been the missing key to my puzzle for the last 29 years of why I could get great groups sometimes and horrible groups another. I tried it all, trying to make my rifles shoot and now understand where the problem has been since day one!! I have even sold rifles that probably shot just fine if I had known to do this last step of load development. It kind of makes me sick knowing how much in terms of components I have wasted over the years due to ignorance, but now thanks to Erik and a few others on TH-cam I don't waste a thing!! Thank you so much for this much needed information!!
Great info. I appreciate the tip at the end about factory ammo. Getting all the reloading stuff is a big investment, but getting a few tools to reseat factory ammo has help me get a ton of performance out of factory ammo.
Another great video Erik. At 22:00 when you ask about 5 different factory ammos...I'm releasing a video today comparing 5 off the shelf with my hand loads and you'll see some interesting results. The basic outcome is EXACTLY what you are saying here! Folks, you don't chase the lands, you adjust for erosion in the barrel IF NEEDED after x100 number of rounds to make sure you are still grouping tight and within a good node as Erik demonstrated here. Also remember that the lands are not eroding "vertically", they are eroding in a tunnel fashion where the erosion is more pronounced at the start of the lands and GRADUALLY decreases (the erosion decreases is what I'm saying) as you move towards the muzzle. To Erik's point, how can you really measure "to the lands" after say 500 rounds? Really nice explanation here Erik.
Eventually it seems you'd run out of bullet, but by then it's time for a barrel.
@@cbsbass4142 exactly. You can only adjust for those lands so far, then it is time for a new barrel. But by then you're groups are probably so bad that you realize that.
I struggled with your first video and writing off distance to the lands because I’ve had great success with the wheeler method. Glad you brought it up, as well as mentioning being limited by mag length in this video. That really cleared up the confusion I had around what you were saying as I felt it was a great starting point. I think every time you said who cares about the distance to the lands you just meant who cares about keeping track of it or maintaining that distance from the lands as it erodes. This video was excellent. Thanks for the info.
It totally made sense the first time. You are looking for a small group node. So you start from jam and work back till you find it, that's your seating depth. Who cares what was in the middle (lands). Then as the barrel wears you test to see if it moved or not by shooting 3 thou less seating depth. Boom done, on to the next thing!
Just curious if you start off with jam measurement and go to remove your bullet from the rifle and it pulls the bullet out of the brass or makes it longer in the brass how do you know where to start off for measurements, do you size your brass before this test or leave it unsized?
Thanks
This is a real eye opener. Thank you very much for sharing this information!
Awesome videos man! You explained it really well. Even in part 1 it was good!
Thanks Erik, your info is a real asset to me, I'm 74 , been reloading since in my 20s, learning more from you than ever
I haven't even got into loading but will be like yesterday and already feel like I've learned an incredible amount just by watching your videos. You make a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing your knowledge with the world. Keep up the good work. Love you brother.
We shoot FTR and have been doing some of what you illustrated. However, love the part about .003" increments. Doing some more testing now tomorrow! Also loved the part about seating depth will tune any load. Fascinating. Thanks for doing this.
Thank you Eric, For me it has always been a combination of chasing speed and accuracy. You have convinced me to chase accuracy and simplify things, Thank you.
Erik, this is one of the best series of videos I have watched in reloading. I tried a number of different load development methods and this one makes the most sense and used it on a number of new tubes since. I pay for your Patreon, it has a number of great videos and is well worth it. Thank you for not "keeping" your knowledge and helping us who want to learn.
I truly appreciate you, I've hand loaded magnum payload shotgun shells since Steel replaced Lead ....that said theres a ton of misinformation on brass loads and you above all in my 6 month venture have more common sense about the the categories of accuracy than ANYONE...
I appreciate your time spent on the subject....
I just got into reloading, and I can’t wait to try out all these techniques I’m learning. Keep up the great work!
I’m new to reloading and I’ve been struggling. Your videos just make logical sense and I’m going to apply this method and hopefully build a superb round for my rifle.
Please make a powder tuning video.
Superb video Thank you from the UK
Hey Erik,! You certainly got me excited about reloading! I’ve been hesitant or more like scared to get into reloading, but after last hunting season, season of 2021, I see it as a necessity. I never again want to sweat about not being able to use a certain one of my rifles only because I couldn’t find the ammo. After watching a lot of your vids as well as other channels, but mainly yours! Lol, I feel confident now going into reloading! Most of all, after learning the info you’ve given us, I’m excited! Thank you for the information and time you’ve taken to educate us! God bless and continue to shoot straight!
Just as informative as Part 1
Great refresher course.
I wish someone had told me this 10 years ago. Thanks Erik!
Thanks for the video Erik! This is exactly where I am with my load development. Your video is a great reference for me! Thanks again and keep them coming!
Great information Erik. I've been precision shooting as a hobby for over 20 years. Measuring where the lands are has always left me feeling that I simply did not have the right equipment to do so, or, I was not physically able to operate my measuring tools correctly (calipers, micrometers, etc) and as a result was not able to achieve closely matching successive measurements. Your explanation of the lands as a "moving target" and the lands represented a range rather than a single data point makes perfect sense to me. I've been moving the seating depth in 0.003" increments, and have had some success at squeezing the accuracy out of my rifles. Your process is going to greatly simplify my load development. I just found your channel. I have subscribed and plan to watch everything you have uploaded to TH-cam. Keep up the good work sir!
I'm just getting into reloading and I've watched way too many TH-cam vids. He gets to the point with no BS.
I’m literally dizzy from all the common sense! Haven’t heard any for quite awhile. Thanks for the video 👍🏻
so excited to try this!! thanks for taking the time to make these last 2 videos!!!
Awesome! Makes sense to me. Thanks for bringing up mag limitations.....and the system still works!!!! We appreciate you sharing this hard learned information. Thanks a bunch Erik!
Your videos are great. Keep em coming. Would be great to see some series based videos... Reloading Series: Component selection all the way to rounds on target, break em out so you have some time to share your insights and opinions. Pair that with a Rifle Series: Rifle, Caliber, and gear and why you shoot what you do, and how to improve. Information like that, in one place, by a shooter of your caliber (pun intended) would really help new or misinformed people who are interested in the sport but struggling to find a path toward improvement. I know I'd watch every one of em.
This helped me a ton!!!! I'd love it if you would go over your load development process. Thanks again!
Eric, Figured out the nods , and thanks so much for passing it all on. Sharing is a gift. Doug
Erik, I came across your videos during Covid, as I had more down time than normal, due to travel lockdowns, etc. and used TH-cam and other online searches to improve my reloading knowledge. This is one of the best and most unique videos I have watched regarding seating depth. The trick about factory loads is also useful (or a shooter can buy your tuner). You are the first person I have watched in a handloading video, who references "jam" instead of referencing "touching the lands". It is a very logical and consistent way to find a load starting point and a very repeatable methods for any rifle/bullet combination. When the magazine is the limiting factor, instead of Jam length, then the handloader will need to use the Magazine length (seated a bit deeper than the Max magazine OAL, so that it will feed reliably), as the starting point for load development. Everything you wrote and discussed makes perfect sense. You are a great teacher and you really care about sharing your knowledge with shooters. This information really does help people avoid frustration, and it helps prevent mistakes or even dangerous situations for newer and inexperienced handloaders. I've watched 25 plus of your videos and also I agree with you regarding cleaning. Too many people shoot a very dirty barrel (almost abused). I never seen a dirty barrel, in a well maintained and quality rifle, which shot better than a clean or at least slightly dirty barrel. Plus, cleaning a barrel will help prevent rust/corrosion. Keep up the amazing effort and work. Thank you, Bryan
Finally! Someone that makes sense on this subject. Thanks bro
Put me on the list for a SGM tee. 2XL please 😉🤜🏼🤛🏼
Great follow-up señior Cortina. And I await the Small Groups matter Tshirt!!!
Small groups is something the covid police would say
These videos are gold! Ive been experimenting with seating depth all wrong. I also really like your explanation in the last video of ignition equals es/sd and seating depth is for group size.
Thanks Erik you have succeeded in getting me excited about reloading again, cant wait to try your method makes it much simpler and makes sense
I am so glad you broke this down! The target is TRUTH!!!! It's so sad to see folks waist time and money based in what they read online about lan spacing. Even worst, is folks getting discouraged and confused. Lan chasing may work for some BUT please people don't get lost in the sauce, target tells thre truth everytime!
This man speaks the truth!
I thought your 1st video explained things perfectly well.....anyhow.
In your next vids, I would appreciate you explaining in some detail about how you FLS, which dies you use & have used etc.
Thanks for sharing Eric. I've been reloading for years & am at the stage where I'm happy to go with what has been proven to work.
"Seating depth will tune any load" Thank you!! Fully agree!
Very well said, excellent information breakdown. I wish I knew someone like you when I first started reloading. All of the work that we put in chasing loads using only a neck die and case trimer way back when. Thanks for sharing a simple well thought out approach to accuracy Sir 👍👍🇦🇺
I’m still laughing about the “new shirt idea”. Thanks for sharing though. Simple enough. Mind blown!
great work, now do the powder tuning vid :-)
This is what I'm waiting for too!!!!!
Powder tuning is simple. Shoot over a chrono and find the smallest ES, thats it tune with seating depth
What do you mean by the smallest ES?
@@rickm1294 Extreme spread. Highest velocity minus lowest velocity
@@rickm1294 You want the velocity of your loads to be as close to each other as possible. Reason: With that they will have consistent drop and wind compensation at long range. If they are too different, the ballistics will differ too much shot to shot, and will not be accurate at long range. Even if they are a one hole group at 100, they will be all over the place at 600.
Thank you, Erik! I appreciate you taking the time to explain it further in depth. You nailed it again. I like your approach too determining seating depth. All common sense to me. But I don’t have any of the old ways burned into my thoughts about Bullet seating depth. Your approach makes it easy for me to do and not put undue pressure on a task that doesn’t need to be complicated.
Awesome video, I got in part 1. It's refreshing to watch a video that's not BS for a change. I'm smarter now after watching. Thanks.
New long range shooter, have been chasing the lands. Thank you for saving my sanity and $$. Great first vid, sorry you had to make another.
5:26 "That is..............Stupid." LOL I love it!
Hello, if anyone reads this or Eric yourself, I have a questions thats been bugging me. I've read thru comments and watched quite a few videos but I dont think no one mentions this.
What if my node doesn't fit in my magazine?
Thanks in advance!
@@khalilbirani3430 COSTLY BUT DOABLE to order a special built MAG BUT,,, Better to try different components, brass, primer, propellant brands, loads, seat depth...you know the drill.
Like he says there are different NODES and you just need to experiment to find them.
For Me at least that FINDING would be the FUN aspect. I call it my Sweet-Spot what he calls NODES.
That's just my opinion and hopefully Erik will weigh in soon.
Best of Luck to you and have fun with it no matter what or how you try.
I just tried this method in my ar15 224 valkyrie . It took my 1in group down to .5in also took my SD and ES numbers down to single digits , I was impressed. Thanks for your knowledge. Love your videos. Can't wait to get a brake tuner for my 338 lapua when they are available.
Thanks for taking the time to do these videos. Great info.
THIS!!! Especially for my hunting rifle where the "jump" is constrained to a minimum of .072" in order to fit the magazine. Then, seat tuning incrementally deeper potentially pushes my load to more than .100" jump. Ouch! No, I'm not chasing the lands, lol. I'm chasing a sub-MOA group! (still)
I agree with the last guy, show a powder tuneing video
Thank you is all I can say, I’m just starting to hand load ,mainly just as a hobby but all I hear is how far off the lands or .010 off is where you want to be, this video cleared up so many questions. Thank you. SGM tee shirts would be awesome.
Ran into some problems finding a decent load on 6.5 grendel. Used the simple method you describe and tested it on two different powders worked awesome. Over the years I've tried ALOT of other methods and spent countless hours tweaking this and that and prepping brass. This was dirt simple and effective.
Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Maybe I missed it in part 1, but I got it now. chasing the node.....not chasing the lands. Once you find the node and hopefully it’s .006 -.010 “ wide, you select the longest CBO, So as the throat erodes you stay in the sweet spot for more rounds. I do the same with powder charge, only I go in the middle of the node to account for powder temp variation.
New handloader here. Do we care more about SD/ES or group size when deciding on powder charge? Gut says accuracy is most important, as having a bullet fly .5MOA high or low causes more issues than velocity variations, but if the same accuracy can be attained with just seating depth then the lowest SD would be best...
I got everything but the t-shirt. Thanks for the vids.
Mr. professor Cortina, I watched the movie and I can't believe it. For two years I have been trying to make a sweet load and sometimes it's good and other times it's bad. Now I will try to do as you say and I hope that I will finally enjoy shooting. Thank you for the lesson and best regards from Poland.
I had watch both of the videos . You clear alot of things up and make it easy for me to under stand better. thank you
Great stuff. Thank you. I thought you hit the nail on the head the first time.
What I would like to know is: what neck tension do YOU shoot with? Do you use an expander after sizing?
YES PLEASE?
I would say instead of chasing the lands you are chasing the accuracy. I just want to tell you how much your videos have helped my reloading skills for getting the accuracy I have been wanting to achieve. Also I think there should be a standard for a comparator gauge and it should be land diameter I make my own and we know that .308 is groove diameter and on 99 percent of precision barrels land diameter is. 300 and no chamfer on inside corner. Anyway I just thought I would throw that in there
I make my own too. 😁
Thank you Erik for sharing your knowledge. I plan to use this method. Great stuff, thanks again!
Thank you. So much info to soak up its awesome!!! I’m just starting in this so this information is so helpful and it’s right up my alley. I love simple and is turned Mud into Clear Water for me. Thank you again.
I would like to see a video on bullet runout and the factors that cause it and the fixes.
I have a faulty quality neck bushing die that would put the necks out of round .006 and never had a problem with accuracy compared to another die, so I'm not sold on concentricity,
That’s it! I’m taking to the streets to protest with my sign that says “SMALL GROUPS MATTER”.
Make sure to wear a mask. Lol
Thank you very much. I appreciate your advice and your expertise. Both of these videos make total sense and answered my questions on lands. This information will definitely help me find where I should be loading for my rifle.
Thank you again.
Erik, thanks for making part 2 of this video. It was much clearer to me the second time around. I owe you an apology for the rough comment I left on the 1st video - sorry about that. I am a land chaser for sure, but I am near conversion.... What turned the light on for me was your statement that throat erosion and seating depth were not a 1 to 1 relationship. I have a new barrel, and only have 40 rounds through it. Before I ever put one through the tube, I made a dummy round to jam. Every time I have made loads, I check throat erosion and adjust the seating depth the same amount, thinking this was keeping things consistent. Looks like it just made me chase my tail in a faster circle. I've got a lot to get my head around and I will be watching more of your videos. Thanks, Brian.
Whats the difference between using your neck tensioned jam test and using a Hornady seating depth gauge like you made on the lathe. Is picking touch vs jam as the starting length arbitrary. there's a lot of things I'd love to have a conversation about like how this affects velocity ES but to little time. Keep up the good work.
Follow the accuracy node, not the throat erosion - simple enough.
I've been watching your videos and I'm finding them super helpful. Wish I'd watched before I bought my dies, wouldn't have bought a neck sizer...Anyway, I seated bullets like you said and it totally worked for me, I found at least one node and maybe another, need to load some more. Thanks man!
Makes complete since. That's why a rifle will like some ammo and some it hates. I was so glad when you pointed that out.
I’ll take one of those shirts. Small groups matter. Lol I’ll try it out for you Erik.
Gold stuff. Now, I'm gonna re-visit some factory loads and mess with seating depth, just to have fun and see if I can observe a node and see it move as I seat the bullet deeper, by 3/1000 increments.
So glad I got it during the first video. But I’m working 9mm brass and had the time to watch V2. Thank yoi for taking the time out of your busy life to share with us. You know my experience level and I am watching and learning as fast as I can. About two months away from loading 6.5, so I have time to learn more.
I’d love to get a video about your thoughts on finding a powder charge. Do you shoot ladder tests? Is it all chronographed?
The Ogive
I’ll cover that soon.
But I will warn you, people will lose their ever loving $hit if I make a video because it goes against what everyone has leaned to this point. 😬
@@ErikCortina Do Tell. waiting waiting waiting.
Erik Cortina bring it on; for the people that are open minded like me, we will learn something; For the ones that are not, their loss... I like your style of teaching; To me, about as simplified as it gets 👍🏻
@@ErikCortina Erik can we have a little hint?🙏
F class shooter here for many years, ES to get load first then seating depth for accuracy
And you are smart Erik i think you may have been the one who had the lowest ES rounds tested at the Canada worlds correct me if im wrong
You are correct. SD of 0 :)