Stop Chasing the lands - Finding the best COAL
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 ก.ย. 2020
- In this video we go over the first step of "Chasing the Lands is Stupid - Don't do it". We find Jam with 2 different projectiles and show the problems I had with this process and the solutions that allowed me to find repeatable results.
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Watch the whole chasing the lands series - th-cam.com/video/tQS338G4nZ0/w-d-xo.html
BAR, I also have another video where I talk about not complicating things. Lol
I’ll wait to watch next weeks video. 😁
I completely understand. I did start off the video telling everyone that they could just use mag length or a known safe distance. I really wanted to see how much area is between touch and jam.
My exact thought about 4 minutes in. Wow some people just cant help themselves. Lol Thats the nature of the beast right, everybody has a system. Do what works for ya
@@jacobwilbert1018 This is a hobby, people love spending good time on their hobby. Sometimes I look for excuses to spend extra couple of hours in my gun room, this would be a good reason to spend that extra couple of hours. His video shows credible work as he knows this is not the only way to do it... Well done...
@@aakoksal
Right, I wasnt searching for an explanation or a justification. I know why it went that way because as you said we all do it, we do it when we dont even intend to. Sometimes you just start walkin n you end up somewhere you didnt know you were heading. And yes thats a metaphor to be clear. I just had a little chuckle because if you watched Erics first 2 videos which led to the making of this one, the spirit of them was the complete opposite of this one. It was funny because it was inevitably heading that direction because of the nature of people like us. You felt like you needed to explain it to me but there was no explanation needed because that was the point. Lol 👍
@@jacobwilbert1018 Well, obviously I needed to spend some time on the subject doing something not so useful...! Enjoy...
After very successfully using EC's Load Development method, IMHO, his major point in choosing a seating depth starting point is don't be on the jam point, for obvious reasons. It doesn't really matter whether it is started .020 off the jam, mag length or .100+ off the jam. Just pick one that is NOT on the jam. EC picks .020" off the jam, found using his normal neck tension, because it works for him. A somewhat hidden point is also don't start on the touch point because of potential bullet ogive and seating depth inconsistencies which can result in variations in velocities during load development and group size variations during seating depth adjustment. YMMV
@@gilream You are spot on. Neck tension is a force but most of us don't have the ability to measure the force it takes to seat a bullet. We compromise by doing measurements (loaded round OD, bullet OD, neck wall thickness, etc.) I am currently using the technique you note and too, use in the neighborhood of .0015". (ex - Loaded 6.5CM = .2915". I use a .290 bushing, then expand using a Sinclair E26 mandrel.) I am about to do an experiment where I measure the variance in seating pressure compared to changing mandrel diameters in .0005" increments. I will then pick the lightest pressure that still gives a solid grip on the bullet and see how that speed ES compares to my standard method. I think it will be interesting. I only single shot shoot so I don't care about how a loaded round is impacted by recoil in a magazine.
Neck tension shouldn't affect jam, it should just affect your ability to properly measure jam. Why wouldn't you take the shortest COAL you got (should correspond to least amount of neck tension) and work back from there? Increasing neck tension just forces the bullet further into the lands before the engraving force overcomes the neck tension. Be sure to remove the ejector pin before doing this test also.
This exactly the kind of work up I have been doing. Started with the Satterlee load development and use Eric's overall lenght to fine turn. It works very good!!!!
For one of my old Milsurp rifles, which was loaded for 175gr roundnose bullets, I don't even bother trying to find the lands. They're so far out that I would basically have to crimp the very based of a flat-based bullet to achieve any degree of success. So, when I fiddle with seating depth, I usually from from maximum listed COAL, or Magazine length, and work my way down, like recommended as an alternative in the video.
After spending all the time it took you on the 6.5 Creedmoor finding the lands and now you’re switching to be off the lands. I want whatever you’re smoking!
What a great supplement to Eric's videos! Thank you very much.
Thanks for all the videos. I have certainly streamlined my process due to your channel. All that you test allows me to cherry pick what's right for me and what I am looking for in different calibers.
Glad that you find it interesting!
I used .002 neck tension but I also used dry graphite lubes on the bullet before seating as well as case lubes on the ogive. Worked perfectly.
Damn, gotta wait another week. Thanx for the video, looking at your shot groups to see if there are two consecutive small groups.
I followed Erik instructions exactly how he described and it worked perfectly for me. It is worth noting that my barrel is a match grade Benchmark barrel and Erik only shoots custom barrels. Maybe there is a difference in a production barrel and a match grade barrel. Also I cleaned my barrel first just in case the carbon build up would interfere.
Hi John. Thanks for commenting your experience! I was really hoping more would do the same. My example is a WHITE OAK PRECISION BARTLEIN pre-fit for a RPR in 6.5, so you can judge your thoughts on barrel quality. I think it’s largely a factor of Neck Tension / surface area (larger diameter should give more resistance?) and the projectile angle where it engages the rifling. I am certain that this works fine for some, maybe a lot, but I am guessing Erik made his video on how he does it because a lot of people struggled with it. I stubbed my toe on it a little so I thought that I would make a video showing the numbers I got. Stuck projectiles are no fun. Mostly I wanted to understand how much this moved and the area defined as "In the lands" to see how wide it is. I really wasn’t expecting an area that was .030” wide, but you don’t know unless you measure. I tried to make it clear in the beginning that I am not bad mouthing the process. One thing that drives me crazy is when people bad mouth these processes, say they don't work, and then when you look at their data they never actually followed the directions. (Happens on my Satterlee velocity tests all the time) I am not going to fix the internet, but I can't possibly see how someone can stand back and act like these guys are giving bad info. These guys didn't win by some sort of accident, but if we sit and crap on them where is their motivation to share in the future. I wanted a video that showed my experience and what I did. I am sure to receive plenty of hate in the next video because I followed his instructions. Most groups are 3 shots, 2 are four. He says straight in his video so run the initial test with 3 shots so that's what I did. Hope I didn't spoil it for you. Thanks again for the comment!
@@BoltActionReloading Believe me I was concerned about the bullet getting stuck. It is also worth mentioning that I used a Berger 109 for my 6mm Creed, also I use Redding S bushing die #270 which allows for .001 neck tension. There is no way to know what works till you try. I love your video and your passion for what you do. Thank you for your response.
I put a small amount of lithium grease near the ogive when I bolt/feed test. It helps the bullet from getting stuck, and it also leaves a slight impression of the lands on the grease so you can see how much contact was made. Neck tension is the key for sure -and just being lucky is the next biggest factor in this area.
That's a great idea my friend.
I have used Eric method to find jam on 2 different barrels worked good thanks for your videos
Another great video! Very interesting subject...
Great video. I plan on using erics method to do some load development myself, just waiting on some parts to come in.
Great video. Good detailed explanation
👍
I'm loading for a semi-auto, so my process is much simpler (COAL dictated by magazine). I don't envy all the extra steps you go through to get the best accuracy from a bolt action. That said, I appreciate you sharing the knowledge should I decide to change my process in the event I start reloading for my bolt actions.
Teasing me with those tight groups!
I applaud you for studying other's systems and providing us with your findings!
Thank you. I will never say my way is the best way, its just worked the best for me so far. Always willing to listen, especially when the one talking has had great success.
K M, I thought the same thing! That was cruel to show us those awesome tight groups and then leave us hanging.
It’s like dinner and a movie with no ....
John Senuta, while I agree good groups at 100 yards doesn’t necessarily mean good groups at 500 yards and 1000 yards, bad groups at 100 yards are likely to still be bad groups at 500 and 1000 yards. With regards to low ES and SD values, often those tightest spreads don’t correlate to the tightest groups, but instead adjacent velocity nodes.
Also with extended ranges of 500+ yards, environmental factors, and shooter ability become sensitive variables.
thanks for doing this video! I was going to message Johnny and see if he would do the same thing but I guess that's why I subscribed to both of you.😁
Thanks for this video as well as others.
I checked my Lee die and my projectile also only touches at the small end.
I was about to modify it to only touch at the ogive, but then realized that it is designed to “center” the nose of the projectile.
No one wants a crooked nose, right?
So now I’m considering modifying the part that centers the pointy end to be floating with a bit of spring tension behind it.
Does anyone think this could work? Thanks
So I’m confused? You show the Hornady OAL Gauge in the video but apparently are not using it because there is no neck tension with this tool. So how are you measuring Jam with varying neck tension? Just Closing the bolt on cartridges with various neck tensions? And if we are looking for nodes at .003 increments starting at .020” from jam, why does knowing the exact jam matter anyway? I use the Hornady OAL Gauge and push it in until the bullet stops moving and call that max. CBTO; Is this correct or not? I use max. CBTO minus 015”, some guys say .010 or .020 or touching or jam. In my testing it doesn’t matter that much. I’ve ladder tested .010, .015, & .020 with no noticeable betterment. What am I missing??
Hi. I’m a newbie here trying to figure out the difference between measuring jamb and the lands. If you go a little shy of your magazine will that more then likely put you short of your lands?
Scott Satterlee has was on modern day sniper podcast episode#14. Talking about his reloading process. He says he prefers 3 thou neck tension using a mandrel. 1 thou is too weak and 2 thou just isn't enough. Also, he sometimes seats .250" - .300" depending how stable his groups are relating to his seating depth. Another node essentially. Kind of had my mind blown listening to that.
@@VincitOmniaVeritas7 Scott did mention with that much neck tension, he believed it helped with preignition and in conjunction with the "long" bullet jump, it helped the transition of the bullet from rest into the lands and through the bore preventing the pressure from spiking and keeping it lower. I imagine this is why the Lee crimp die works so well for others though semi autos.
I use 1.5 and that works perfectly for me.
That episode was very interesting in hearing how some of Satterlee's methods have changed/evolved. Also, interesting hearing his current thought process and theory and the experiments that lead to his decisions and a little preview of what he's working on now, such as ball powders. I imagine a lot of shooters will be left scratching their heads or worse with what he's saying now about certain things. It was funny to hear about him reaming out and increasing the free bore several times in increments over saami spec up to .360" for more bullet jump.
at 5.05 min you have a program that measure your hits on target - what is that? and how does it work?
after watching erics vid i went from mag lengths back my first .003 was my best group.was so happt to get the tikka @ just under 1/2 in a 5 shot group,ent home and cleaned the snot out of it.went back and they were back to 1 moa @ 100 @300 3/4moa.i'm using 178eldx long story short it took a few 25 rnd and i'm 3/4 moa @ 100 and 7 shots 1 print on steel @300 .i ordered a bore scope in between thinking my barrel was clean was i wrong.a lot off copper still has to come out.so to be repeatible to the best i an be i'll start from a clean bore every time and work this load up again.
To much thinking for my deer loads but very interesting stuff!!!
One thing I like to do is to check inside neck diameter for neck tension after I run my mandrel. I got a bunch of pin gauges cheaply from amazon in 1/2-thou increments to check this. Thus I can say that for my annealed 308 Lapua brass with a standard 21st century TiN expander mandrel my own neck tension runs between 1.5thou and 2thou
I typically run my mandrel after I full size it with a conventional Forster FL die honed to 0.334” which results in my inner diameter at about 2.5thou under my .308 nominal. I of course run that die without expander spindle because my mandrel die does that function.
Also note that I turn my brass necks to about 14thou thickness
@@frankkalisz7455 Hi Frank Thanks for your feedback. I have some interesting testing I want to try. (at least I think it will be) I plan on playing around with NT a little more.
I try to keep my neck turning as simple as possible. I keep a Forster “Original” set up and dedicated to one cartridge type. So for my 308, I have all my necks at uniform 14thou thickness regardless of headstamp
Hi, just checking. Are your COAL and olive measurements in 6.5mm precise to your rifle and what was the rifle used. For my CTR Tikka, they seem very short.
I tried Erik's method of finding the jam with my Sako TRG-22 in .260 Rem. It was a total failure. The bullet did not stick in the lands, but could not eject from the action, same as you found. I think his method only works in a barrel with a relative short leade.
Just curious, did you use sizing wax on the bullet and open the action briskly?
George Fisher
It is not a failure at all. Once you found out where jam is, you can back off to where you are comfortable seating the bullet and start tuning from there. The only reason of finding Jam is so that you aren’t seating your bullet there and having issues. As long as you are off of jam, you can be away 0.050, 0.100, or whatever amount. It doesn’t matter.
Hope this makes sense.
You went from COAL in the video title to your video ending with CBTO. Ain't matter though, the difference is roughly 0.650 from your table, regardless of the mandrel size.
CBTO = Cartridge Base to Ogive measurement via Hornady or Stony Point comparator.
Does anyone out there know the best way for me to find the depth off of the headspace for which my lands start or my rifling begins so that I can do that without having to buy special tools it's got to be able to be done
JRB uses a case, cuts a slit in the neck and uses it.
I'm curious at which point in your load development you test neck tension. Do you do it after finding powder charge/primer with good SD/ES and before tuning CBTO?
Hello! This is a great question. I have done quite a bit of random testing that I can't really document properly where using a expander about .002" under projectile diameter is where I have found the most consistency. Increasing tension much past this will cause deformation of the projectile and less seems to hurt ignition consistency unless you are firmly in the lands (not my preferred spot.) I have a playlist on the subject if you haven't seen it, but the data showing this is not really documented to the extent I would like. That playlist is here: th-cam.com/play/PLXl7rMHW73NOgCoSQqjlsPLdCCk2Xy2u4.html however I have plans to document this better in the future. Think about subscribing so you don't miss it.
Finding jam on at desert tech is a pain.. not sure why but still can't get one to jam over 2.400with a .263 expander may try the .262
I just performed the procedure Eric Cortina and you support on my Uintah 6ARC upper. The distance was 1.7500" (the Hornady gauge gave me around a 1.7395") so I subtracted 0.020 and am using the max BTO distance of 1.7300". The maximum length for a bullet in the magazine only allows me a BTO of 1.620" and a difference of 0.110" BTO to the lands. That is 0.110" starting out then 0.113, 0.116, etc. Is this distance too far out to make any improvements to accuracy? It sounds like the chamber was cut too deep!! HELP
Wouldn't those longer length with more neck tension actually be jamming the bullet in the lands deeper? Did the bullets have any Mark's on them from the lands?
Just my opinion the lightest neck tension should give a true-er distance to the lands.
2.263” expander? .263 expander correct?
I have always found COAL by placing a projectile into the barrel, measuring the length from the crown to the meplat with a rod, and then measuring the distance from the crown to the bolt face (and then ascertaining the difference between those distances to find COAL. But this doesn't take into account, any neck tension because a case there isn't a case used during the test. I'd be interested to know if you ever used this method and if so, was there any difference with your lightest neck tension. I am a big tinkerer as well so you'll probably know I''ll try the methods of your video. I can't help it, it's just too tempting. Thanks a lot for this video. It is intriguing!!!
This may have been asked before but I've been looking and can't seem to find out. You sometimes show a line graph to see where the bullet speed kinda shows a sweet spot between one powder weight and another.
I know a lot of people use Excel. I don't know how to make up the formula for this. Do you have something you can send me to put on my computer or do you know of a program I can buy that makes those graphs? Thanks for any advice you can give me.
Jeff D.
Hi Jeff. The 6.5 guys have a spreadsheet you can download on their video about load development analysis. If you can't find it let me know and I will dig up the link for you.
Thanks for the video and information.
Shouldn't your cbto be the same for all bullets if your using the same gun?
ogive to base of cartridge stays the same regardless of bullet type, if same gun is used.
This is a very common misconception. The inserts are not the same as the leade in the barrel. The SAC comparators are much closer but not always identical.
I'm new at reloading... been doing my homework and have one question... when you seat longer that means you have more case volume. That brings pressure down but it does the same to velocity. Is there a ratio that you use to increase the powder charge or do you just increase in small increments and watch for pressure signs? Love your channel and how you don't bash other people's processes!
I like your videos
Thanks. I hope you find them useful!
Will the expanded work in the sinclair die
The 21st century mandrels will fit into the Sinclair die. I think that I show this in some of the video.
Thanks
3:00 thank you! People having pissing contests in TH-cam comments over terminology is zzzzzzzzzzz
You seemed to be chasing the lands in the entire video. Theory is you can keep adjusting the seating depth shorter and shorter to change the harmonics when the bullet cannot reach the lands. Usually when one needs to load to fit a magazine that does not have enough length for a bullet to get close to the lands. You are a bit busy with detail but missed the mark on your title to this video. Very informative but Eric C explained the don't chase the lands much better.
Hi Garry this is an entire series not one video. I am trying to demonstrate in this particular video how the jam measurements change with different neck tension. I have watched all of his videos on the subject and understand the concept. If you watched this video you can see that depending on your combination sometimes it's not as easy as they show on TV so to speak. I am putting numbers behind the process and to try and give folks that have a issue with the first step of this process a way forward. Best of luck.
BAR
I have found that the 21st century expander mandrels are .002 under what they have them marked as. At 21.50 each and they want to charge you restocking fees and shipping for their mistake, I won't be buying these from them.
Did you lube your bullets like he said?
I did. I was pretty sure I said I waxed the projectile.
Good information but you talk faster than I can listen.
Mind melt. Does anyone one else just full length size, run mag length, or 20 thou off the lands depending on rifle configuration. And shoot sub MOA? Look what are we trying to achieve? I can take a rifle that shoots 3/4 MOA and shoot 10×10 steel out to 1000 yards all day long. All touching groups highly over rated. Spend more time developing you DOPE than tiniest groups possible. Just my 2 cents.
This method and the results, we are trying to achieve, are not for steel shooting. It is meant for f class, where you need .30 MOA or better.
@@kickapoo621
Class huh. You are aware that the majority of shooters now days do 10 round load development. By the time you got done doing all this testing with a new match grade barrel it would be burnt out.
I kept getting my bullets stuck
Me too, This is what I go over in the video. Lowering the neck tension helped me quite a bit.
You totally lost me,,,, to much!
No offense but you talk waaaaay too fast. Calm down dude.
Hi bret, trying to slow my pace a bit is something I am working in. If you go into the video settings you can slow it down there as well.
Good information but if you're not going to show yourself dont show your hands or arms either because its annoying to watch. Thanks for the info.
Slow down
Erik was easier to follow an understand than U__ U need to talk slower.