In a former life I built, tuned and raced motorcycles… KISS is a universal approach to complex problems and “most” successful people employ it. Lower YOUR workload so you can perform better. Good video.
I don’t have $$$ to buy $5k rifle, so I setup my tuner to the best I know and forget it after that. It improved ~$1k rifle from sub MOA to sub 0.5 MOA. I don’t keep changing the tuner settings
Love the logic here. I've always said that shooters are a lot like golfers. When their game isn't up to standard, a lot of times they just throw money at the problem rather than focus self improvement. I'm at the extreme early stages of long range shooting and don't know what I don't know yet, but I can appreciate the mentality of just focusing on my skills rather than buying another tool to lug around. Saw a dude at the range with a full blown weather station and a laptop the other day. Come on man, really? Great content. Thanks!
It is great to hear pure logic. This is exactly why I don't use tuners neither (FTR). There is enough variables at play, the last thing I need is another one, especially since its benefits are so easily outweighed by risk.
ABSOULTY, feel the same, so much effort to do all you development and testing, then over with a tuner, I did put one on a 6.5 C, set on zero, it shot .20 groups, but did that before. Thanks for the update.
Very valid in your 3 points. I've got a tuner for my 22LR which has helped shrink the groups very tight. As for my centre fire rifles you are dead on the money with good loads and seating depth tests. Thankyou for doing this and now get that suit and your wife out for a nice meal 👍
Sincerely, thank you. I have shot exactly seven 600 yard F-Class events. The first five with a .308 whose receiver dates to the early 1940s (an Italian heritage Mauser) average was 357.8, woo hoo. The next two events I was allowed to shoot my .260 Remington with EC Muzzle Brake/Tuner in the open class. Average score there 376.5. My immediate goal was to average 360 (or to keep everything in the nine ring at 600 yards). These are my hunting guns and the objective was to improve my shooting. I have shot a variety of projectiles to arrive at a suitable "target" load. I know that physics dictates that the greater the density, overall mass, and barrel length the higher the frequency and the less the amplitude. The tuner has made it possible to shoot a variety of different weight projectiles to achieve my less than one MOA goal. Just saying.
Great info. I really appreciate you sharing this clear info. There is so much information on reloading on the internet it’s overwhelming. You videos try to cut to the chase and it’s great.
For those of us that can’t afford full custom rifles and spending endless hours at the loading bench & range, tuners are a god send and have saved me time & $$.
You know this guy is an engineer with a regular day job right? Many shooters have nice rifles because they save for them and it’s their passion. It’s cool you like tuners, but Kieth is just putting in the work.
@@DWhite-el4ihamen! He is just trying to teach us lessons! Even being a hunter reloader and collector I am still learning even though I may not need or us it🤔😳
Tuners work a lot better after you tune the rifle with a load then adjust the tuner to top of swing. The real benefit is to beable to adjust at a match when conditions like temperature are enough to affect consistency where a tuner will bring things back in by turning out or in a hash mark
even with full custom and long, dragged out load development, tuners are needed when you shoot in different parts of the country. I load dev at 750 sea level, shoot regularly for fun and personal best at 2200. and compete at anywhere in between..
One thing I think about when shooting is most of us do it because its fun. When complexities of competing get too technical it takes away from the fun. You can spend all this time and money with your focus on winning the match only to have it taken from you by the weather or wind or bad ammo. With 22LR you are pretty much at the mercy of the suppliers. If everything is too serious that equates to stress that none of us needs and you arent having fun.
I use 3 tuner/brakes on 3 rifles same reamer cut chambers same twist barrels. Various round count barrels as well. All compete 1k VBR, load is the same across the board annealed, turned necks, trimmed, primer pockets uniformed, neck bushing fls, mandrel uniform, etc each firing less the neck trim of course. Custom bullets cnc turned and HBN coated. The load is the same and the tuner dials it in individually for each rifle. 6bra chambered, kreiger and brux barrels. Tuner/brake also kept my wife shooting with me, she had 3 shoulder surgeries and trying to keep her company at matches. So Keith I enjoy your podcasts and have applied to my own loading and shooting, keep up the good work. Thank you Ron Smith
I believe tuners really shine with factory barrels & recreational shooters. As far as costs go my factory barrel was threaded and I purchased a Harrells tuner/brake for approx. $100.00 which is not very much. It would cost me well over $1k to buy a precision barrel and have the action machined so costs truly is not a factor. My groups for my 223 have been reduced from 5/8" to 3/8" @ 100 yds. plus I reload the same all the time so no variance there. 😀
You definitely don't need to spend a lot of money on "custom rifles" or tuners to shoot as small as you mention........... Example Tikka ctr in 6.5 creed shoots half inch or so with factory ammo...costs is around a grand for the gun..(less before covid lol)
Thanks Keith, that was very informative. I was considering a tuner but on the basis of your video I won't. Also, Bryan Litz did extensive testing of tuners with several calibres and after approx 800 rounds per barrel he concluded that a tuner will not come up with a REPEATABLE best load.
Thank you for your thoughts on tuners, Keith. I'm just getting started in the short range benchrest game. A couple friends of mine who have been doing benchrest for a long while have tried tuners and no longer use them. I haven't gotten to the point where I pick their brains for the reason why. For now I'm not going to use a tuner but rather develop a load using Tony Boyer's approach to arrive at a powder charge weight and bullet seating depth.
Im not a competitive shooter, so the keep it simple approach is something I can relate to. Thanks for the information and honesty in your experience with these tuners.
Well said, they are all valid points that you mentioned. I’ve found constant loading and shooting form has given me the results I’m after, rather then adding a tuner or muzzle brake and adding another variable.
This has been heavily discussed the last few days in a few forums I’m in. I do not use them the main reasons I stated you touched on in here. Very well made video
Depends on what you are shooting. For 22LR, definitely need a tuner. Barrel profile is also important. Carbon fiber barrel are fantastic with tuners. In addition to tuners, I've added collars to my CF barrel and it practically shoot tight groups no matter what ammo I put in it. Adding collars changed the harmonics and POI, etc. The math is there to prove it out.
My takeaway - most of us aren’t good enough to consistently shoot at a high level for any number of reason - adding another variable only complicates it. There is no easy fix - just ask golfers. Ha! Great video!
Very interesting presentation delivered, as always, dispassionately while presenting well thought of arguments. Personally, point #3 applies more than the other two due to lack of experience but my take, when it comes to technological matters, is that parsimony is desirable and something to strive for. The fewer things can go wrong, the fewer things to worry about. I think this was more a lab coat than a sports jacket video... 🙂
@@jennifferbondurant673 Love to hear more on the difference ... in both of your scenarios you mentioned you're tuning the ammo ... just that in the second instance you added "to the rifle". Please explain how in rimfire you turn a device on the end of a barrel and it affects the actual ammunition instead of how it performs in your rifle.
Thankyou I already was against them and all for just developing the right load, but now you have given me even more reason not to go with a tuner even though so many say they are magic
Late to the discussion here but I thought I should thank you for your very logical explanation of why you don't use a tuner any longer. I bought a 25-06 Browning A-bolt in 1999 that has the BOSS system tuner on it from Kesselring gun shop here in Washington and it has served me well. I use this rifle for deer and antelope only, I shoot only one load in it, 110 ELDX over 58.5 grains of IMR 7977 with Federal GM 215M primers yielding 3120 fps and .7 MOA at 100 yards, before fiddling with the BOSS, .4 after many more rounds. For my intended use and range, this serves me quite well and I have no plans of changing bullets anytime soon. Maybe powder as 7977 is not being produced right now, but most likely won't burn up what I have on hand in the foreseeable future. I also built up a 30 Nosler hunting rifle with a Pac-Nor match grade barrel that I worked up a load that shoots .4 MOA without a tuner and with far less ammo expenditure monkeying with a tuner. And again, I won't be changing my loads anytime soon as it suits my needs just fine. I totally get where you are coming from Keith, one can go down the rabbit whole chasing trends, IMO, tuners are no different than "Diet" pills, they work if you follow the directions but they are no sure thing. It was interesting that so many of the fanboys were indignant about your video, you eloquently explained your reasoning behind your decision, yet they took offense even though you qualified your statement by saying that it was your opinion and yours alone. Perhaps they felt they may have wasted some money and time and lashed out. I find your video's very informative and don't let the Trolls get to you!
I appreciate your insight into this tuner topic. I remember when Browning/Winchester came out with the Boss tuning system, maybe 20 years ago. They can work, but I think it is not the "ideal" way to tune a rifle/load combo. I personally am not interested in using a tuner, for many of the reasons you suggest. I would rather "tune" the load to my rifle than tune the barrel to a load. You made some additional points I had not thought of also, Maybe if a person has a factory rifle, shooting factory ammo, then using a tuner/brake combo could be an option for tuning in this scenario, but if I am hand loading for an accurate rifle, then I prefer to tune the load instead of the barrel. If someone has a rifle and load they need to shoot, and need something to work on short notice, possibly due to lack of components, a new rifle or lack of time, then a tuner could be useful in such a situation, but I would not rely on a tuner as a long term solution. I am more of a hunter than a competition shooter and you bring up a good points about the tuner coming loose. I have seen muzzle brakes come lose and destroy accuracy at the range and on hunting trips. Anything attached to the barrel needs to be tight and checked on a regular basis. For hunting, reliability is more important than accuracy as most hunters don't have the time to get a perfect rest and judging wind without flags or wind meters leaves a lot on the table.. As long as a rifle is reasonably accurate, but reliable/consistent, this is more important than 1/4 MOA accuracy with an inexperienced shooter or potential functionality issues with the rifle. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. There are lots of opinions regarding shooting, products, ammo, etc, but there are also many things which hold more true than not. Bryan
So I had that happen to me on my 308 . The EC Cortina brake tuner combo got loose either in the case or on the ride to the range. Im taking it off and going to rely on powder charge and seating depth.
I have been considering a tuner on my next barrel, plenty of time to think about it as it is 8 months out with Brux. I started looking at tuners but remember how much I have seen others playing with it during a match. You make a lot of sense in your 3 reasons. This definitely helps to confirm my decision to not use a tuner. There is just no magic that can be purchased, Accuracy and Precision result from many different factors and nothing is going to change that. Thanks very much for sharing.
Very interesting. I shoot NRA prone matches at the national level. It seems like there is a difference in the approach to tuners among the competitors I see. The folks that shoot from the sling get their rifle in tune with a lot of ammo, then don’t mess with the settings. The F class shooters seem to want to adjust more frequently. Your absolutely correct concerning match day. Development is done during practice sessions. Match day is a day to win and the only way to do that is to pay attention to conditions and believe in you and the equipment 100%.
I could not agree more. They started in 22lr where loads can't be worked. I think to many people go for the tuner expecting magic, when at best it's another variable that needs controlled, in a world where the fewer variables the better.
Great info and thanks for sharing. I'm still a relative "newbie' in F Class shooting, solid EX-MA and am running a tuner on the RPR 6.5 CM I'm shooting. Yes, I know I need a more "proper" rifle and I'm getting there but, fantastic learning is occurring along the way. Right or wrong, I don't mess with the tuner very often, nor do I worry at a match if I need to adjust it. I've tested out to a great velocity node, seating depth and tuner setting and, currently will only worry about ambient temp, ammo temp and/or adjust the powder charge VERY slightly to compensate for anticipated temp/wx. One thing I've discovered is just how deep into even the roots of the weeds we shooters can go. The depths and minuscule variables seem to have no end. I would be interested to see how many, if any, multi "National" Level champions (FO, FTR) don't go there (into the weeds). Like, they just find a great load, seating depth and run with it all the time/all conditions and still manage major wins because of their shooting skills. Or, does such a shooter even exist?
There aren't a lot of multi-time National champions in a sport that is less than 20 years old. I think we all get into the weeds a bit in testing, just to make sure we aren't leaving anything on the table.
Interesting video! I agree with what you say. I almost bought a tuner but for some reason just thought it SAS a mistake for me and my load development routine. You just explained what those reasons were better than I ever could. I never really considered the psych angle though. Thanks for that!
Thats a great point about the psychology of tuners. For those of us that tend to be obsessive about the little details there’s a danger of chasing your tail turning the tuner based on small sample size data that is pretty much meaningless.
I think I understand what is going on here. I also have been reconsidering a EC tuner. I have used the rubber doughnut type tuner with success with my old Den. 700 in rem.222 hand loads. When I developed a good load I used the tuner to fine tune. So then I stay there. When I purchase a Savage mod. 10 with a 26" tactical barrel in 6cr I were surprised to find how easy it was to shoot bug holes at 100 Yds. I now can see that a tuner isn't for the Savage 6CR. Why risk loosing what I have. I'm with you. KISS. keep it simple Stu...
A few shooters at my range, have recently purchased tuners & it’s the next big trend. I very instinctively thought to myself, “Nope, don’t need one” I didn’t know why, I just felt a strong “NO” Now I know why. Thank you 👍
@@Michael-rg7mx I didn’t realize they have been around that long. I never saw them back then. But the trend at my local club is new. It’s catching on like AR’s, 6.5 Creedmoors & Vortex Scopes. Pretty soon everyone will have one.
Factory ammo, same hole 3 shot groups @ 300 yards 30-06 EC tuner brake. The gun shot 1.5 MOA before the install... To me it works and that means money well spent.
Thank you for defining this question. I have been debating trying a tunner but feel it is just one more thing to spend energy and time towards. Know one has been able to give me a logical explanation about this subject, untill your video.
Very nice video. You express all your decisions on tuners based on F Class shooting and all the variables that need to be considered. It's more like keep it simple stupid by eliminating one item that could be overly relied upon or accidentally get out of tune. I myself use tuner brakes but I am just looking for hunting with it at reasonable ranges that does not require all that is involved with F-Class and just use common threaded barreled rifles. I do appreciate your videos because in the long game like you do you need to do the homework and do what it takes to reduce the mistakes. Winning in the wind is not easy. Thanks for the video.
Excellent informative Video. Unfortunately trying to complete a true comment based on opinion may take very long. But I'll try somewhat. 1st off one has to deside what is the objective or what your even shooting for. 2nd Yeah if you don't have a treaded barrel already unlike almost everyone has today for a muzzel brake or a suppressor why even take that step. Almost all if not most custom rifles come with some form of threading. 3rd, Powder, Seating Depth, Bullet choice, barrels and Tuners are like a ring or circle. If you can complete a true node for each in your rifle, then you have completed the best you have to work with. Now as mentioned not every one has maybe the means or availability to purchase the best in all. Lastly, I would have to believe that the opinions in this scenario is for the most part based on F-Class competition shooting. Personally, I try to develop bullet, powder, and seating depth 1st to see what my rifle even likes. And later if the barrel is threaded from the gate, Yes by all means use to the Tune if desired or needed to possibly do any fine tuning to the node. IMHO.
I agree that if you are messing with your tuner in the field then it is a problem. I think if you simply use the tuner as a 3rd part of your load development and then lock it, leave it, forget it exists there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. At that point it is just the barrel end, not a field adjustment and you are back to assessing the conditions, not the rifle.
Excellent video, completely agree. I've always thought that a tuner makes sense on a 22 where you can't adjust any other variables, ammo is cheap, and shots don't significantly wear the barrel; but on a center fire, where there's already a hundred other variables to nail down, barrels only last a couple thousand rounds, and ammo is $2 a shot, I agree they just don't make sense.
My opinion. A barrel tuner doesn't make a bad barrel good. Bad ammo doesn't get any better with a barrel tuner. If the components are good and have been processed correctly, then what is the need for a barrel tuner? Thanks for the great video.
GREAT VIDEO. I used tuners on both rimfire and centerfire rifles (PRS)...USED TO. Changed to a straight taper barrel on both and took the tuners off. My rimfire still shoots sub-MOA groups at 300 yds, where we're generally shooting 3+ MOA targets...All good there. My centerfire 6BRA is a tack driver without a tuner because the gunsmith who does my barrels is an old bench-rest shooter and knows his stuff. My conclusion on tuning, specific to centerfire, where YOU control the cartridge is that you are actually tuning your CARTRIDGE to your barrel. Once I have powder charge, seating depth, my loading process honed, etc... I have tuned my cartridge for the harmonics of my barrel. That's just the way I think about it now. LOVED all three of your reasons and all make sense. Can't tell you how many rounds I wasted tuning the barrel, only to wonder why I might be off in competition (when it was because of me or other conditions I didn't consider), which then messes with my head the entire day.
Tuners work period. It doesn't take that long to learn which way to turn the tuner and how far to turn it. How long will if take for your shooting audience to learn how much to heat up or cool down there ammo and which way to go when conditions change the tune? It's exacty the same as a tuner just a different way of getting there! In comparison its far easier to turn a knob than to carry around a bucket of ice and a heater
Great videos. Juist getting stated shooting at longer ranges at Douglas Ridge Rifle Club near Boring OR. Would like to get your opinion on the Tacom structured barrel.
I stopped using tuners on my light gun class 1000yd benchrifle. Mostly because last barrel burnt out in July last year and i didnt have time to calibrate a tuner after tuning the barrel during prime time in match season. Also they are a lot of extra shots down a pipe. That being said Mike Ezell Tuners are the best available
Great video! I really like that you address the value of your psychological condition. Tuners do work, but the benefits do not seem to outweigh the risks in your scenario. I couldn't agree with your assessment more. I think people undervalue the risk of threading a barrel as well. For most people on premium barrels, this will not be a huge issue unless something goes horribly wrong. For someone that .1 moa could be the difference between a championship and a quiet drive home, it is a HUGE risk.
The psychological condition is such a huge factor. I recently had a chance to work with a very disgruntled shooter at my range last week. He was dealing with faulty equipment & the bottom line is, he was leaving the range with no confidence in himself or his gun. I stopped him, let him use my rest, spotting scope & targets & he got back on track. His gun was great, shooting was great & he left happy, feeling ready to hunt.
Thanks for sharing why you don’t use tuners. As for me, I will continue to use tuners because your three issues don’t apply to me. I am saving thousands of dollars by not having to do seating depth development (yes, I do find that the tuner substitutes seating depth development!). I have a competent gunsmith, and I am not an F-class shooter (i.e. a 0.5 MOA group is fine for me and then I go hunt). As long as the tuner remains on the same setting, the groups stay small. I agree that “tuning” in the field is not a good idea (unless you are very experienced in it), but the idea of a tuner is to tune at the range and then LEAVE it there for your hunt/competition. As for me, tuners are the business (saving lots of time and money). But I still gave you a thumbs up, because I value your opinion (which is somewhat aimed at competitive F-class shooters). Keep up the good work, Keith.
I use a tuner on my brake when competing because the load my rifle likes with my suppressor goes from 0.3 moa to 0.8 moa and i can get it back down to 0.3 with the tuner, It saves me having 2 different loads for the brake and the suppressor.
I agree with you. If I was up to the author's level of competition where I have that kind of money for that kind of equipment(custom barrels, reloading equipment(powder measuring down to the 100 th of a grain), presses, etc, I probably would not need one. In my case, I developed rounds the old way of moving seating depth .002" in after finding the velocity node. Now, find the velocity node and tune. Works for me and they are on my rifles. I don't shoot competition.
Here's one of the selling points they say about selling tuners, " You can put your rifle back in tune, if it goes out of the node at the bench" or They say, " once you do load development, throw a tuner on it to get same groups and if groups change , turn it one way, ita save your range day" Owl, one more, they say " insurance " just in case chit happens. Well, I'm glad I watched this video. Because for me, if something is out of tune, I'd rather want to know what to do to fix it than putting a ugly band-aid on it I don't like how they look.
My take on calibers over .22 that you can reload. Well barrel length/weight is the real issue, look at it this way a Trombone (musical instrument) has a movable tube that you move to get the notes that you want, so if you don't move it into the right length well you get a bum note, then if you hit the right length, wham you have the right note coming out. So just get you load right for each barrel. Keep your powder dry.
From what I can gather, and this is a harsh judgement, barrel turners are more for the people who don't like doing load development. (What's the saying? There are those that reload to shoot, and those that shoot to reload?) They can just pick up factory ammo from the store, see what does well with their rifle, then tune to eke out more performance for their application. In the grand scheme of things, it's probably going to help bring down the "cost of entry" for local and club competitions, and I think that'll be a good thing. At the higher level, I think we'll see a growing number of people who will use tuners to turn for conditions, I.E. It's a very hot day and they know their load will open up with temperature, so they use their tuner to compensate. That's going to take someone who is intimately familiar with their platform, though. I will probably get a barrel tuner on a rifle sometime in the future, but only because I'm a natural tinkerer. At the end of the day, I love reloading, so if I had to depend on a barrel tuner to get one of my rifles to shoot right, well, I just wouldn't feel right. That's my personal preference.
Good points. For someone that doesn't reload, a tuner might well be a good idea. This video's context was that of a top level F-Class shooter. I would assume that tuners could be of benefit on a rifle with factory ammo (including rimfire). Thanks!
Agreed, the only rifle is have a tuner on is my 22 since it was extremely hard to test different rounds/lots and stock up on what worked well so I was stuck with buying a lot of whatever good SK and Lapua I could find and tune for it
Not all Tuners need to be cut to fit. once you get a good load after doing a load developement you can do a quick tune before you stretch it out at every outing. Thats all I need to ring steel for fun. Your right its better to master your load and rifle but this is not all I load for or all I do so Tuners rock! If I took it as serious as you and went to competition I would spend countless hours try to reach for perfection but I'll settle for close enough. These are made for guys like me, who are seeing what one can do and try for distance just for personnal achivement. and of course getting new toys!
Thanks for sharing this information, I have been thinking about a tuner so it's great to have the pro's & cons to be able to make the right decision for you. 👍
At an F class match last year I was pair shooting with Master/High Master. He got into the mode of adjusting the tuner and he admitted to losing focus on shooting, Just as Keith describes. I'm convinced - no tuner on my center fires.
I agree Keith. I have two barrels and both are threaded for Cortina tuner. Don't use it but keep it mounted and tightened up. Next barrels will not be threaded. Is it better to leave it on tightened down or remove it completely with threads exposed?
I believe, and I've been wrong before, you're correct. And, you saved me a bunch of time and money- Thank you! Now, I like Erik, I didn't at first, but I really like Erik now. He is a cool dude and helpful as well as (seems) honest. And, he shoots very very small 1000 yard groups. But I believe your correct, I very much like what you said about being in tune with the environment! Good vid ol'boy Jesus is King
Keith I really appreciate your insight into this. Truly makes sense… however under my use I truly love them. I do not shoot competitions and has allowed me to tune a thrown together load using quality powder with high load densities and just pick a bullet seating depth and make 1.5” groups consistently right at .5”. Now being that I am only making hunting ammo this saves me time and components as I can have a full on sighted in from new hunting load in 50 rounds. However this uses common threaded ends not the super fancy.. mine is a EC Tuner Brake. For a competition gun I see your point! For the PRS guys who just use factory ammo or a hunting rifle your concerns of spinning the dial is still true but what it can accomplish is cool.
I am with you especially on the psychology part. I shoot shotgun and I shoot a lot better since I got a shotgun with Fixed choke. One less thing to think about during the competition. Very well said.
Whitworth's hexagonal barrel most likely never produced vibrations, and it's hexagonal projectile did not lose energy through friction losses. It shot over one thousand yards on black powder with unmatched accuracy.
I cannot say much because I have never ran a tuner however you have, carefully considered the risks which are many, and based on those you cancel out their use. I agree when you have the sort of risks as you describe, it would be crazy to put it on a competition rifle.
I can't really offer an opinion because I've never used a tuner. However, it would be interesting to tally how many of the top 10 finishers at nationals or world championships use tuners. F-Class competitors throw incredible amounts of time and money into this game...and they aren't stupid.
Confidence Yes that old little troll sitting on your shoulder whispering in your ear that you need a tuner.... Nope I did my powder work, I did my seating depth I am using the best components I can find I am 72 years old I will take the results I get and be happy with them and just enjoy the challenge I am not a F class shooter just a long range steel ringer thanks for honest information....
The last hour of my life has been a roller coaster. I went from not knowing about tuners, to thinking they are great, to having nothing but doubt. Thanks.
It's just sense and logic. A good shooter with good rifle don't need a tuner, but just a perfect load for the rifle, simple and easy, no need to complicate things with a tuner.
Great insight into tuners Keith! Great video. Hey question, how about for the ELR guys (mile plus)? Do you think it’s more applicable in that situation? And not necessarily in actual competition either…
Mine are all hunting rifles. To each his own. My $425 Mosberg Patriot 7 PRC shoots .25 moa. I bought it to see if I could make it shoot. It shot so good I bought one for son. A little more work but it shoots .25 moa also. My nephew just bought one and I’ll see how that shoots. All my guns are at least .5 moa. I developed my last load in 12 shots. I did get the load off of Long-range Only boys. I have enough experience with other powders to do that. Just bought 2 more EC tuner brakes because I’m setting up a couple of my families guns for hunting season. I think you’re totally wrong for me. But you do you. I run tuners on all my guns. Totally saves me component’s and time. If I had an F-class gun I’m sure I could make it shoot if I’m getting those results with thin hunting rifle barrels. EC Tuner-brakes are an essential part of my long range shooting. Respectfully.
Did you watch the Hornady podcast "Your groups are too small" - They basically say, unless you're shooting 30+ shot groups, you don't have any real data! Worth the watch!
![[#2024MAMA] ROSÉ (로제), Bruno Mars - APT. | Mnet 241122 방송](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/dgGqD28J6aQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
In a former life I built, tuned and raced motorcycles… KISS is a universal approach to complex problems and “most” successful people employ it. Lower YOUR workload so you can perform better. Good video.
I don’t have $$$ to buy $5k rifle, so I setup my tuner to the best I know and forget it after that. It improved ~$1k rifle from sub MOA to sub 0.5 MOA. I don’t keep changing the tuner settings
Love the logic here. I've always said that shooters are a lot like golfers. When their game isn't up to standard, a lot of times they just throw money at the problem rather than focus self improvement. I'm at the extreme early stages of long range shooting and don't know what I don't know yet, but I can appreciate the mentality of just focusing on my skills rather than buying another tool to lug around. Saw a dude at the range with a full blown weather station and a laptop the other day. Come on man, really?
Great content. Thanks!
Words of wisdom! All the guys trying to sell stuff are not going to like this!!
It is great to hear pure logic. This is exactly why I don't use tuners neither (FTR). There is enough variables at play, the last thing I need is another one, especially since its benefits are so easily outweighed by risk.
Lots of trips to the range and lots of rounds for load development. EC-TUNER saved me lots of time and money.
You’re missing the point he’s making though.
ABSOULTY, feel the same, so much effort to do all you development and testing, then over with a tuner, I did put one on a 6.5 C, set on zero, it shot .20 groups, but did that before. Thanks for the update.
Very valid in your 3 points. I've got a tuner for my 22LR which has helped shrink the groups very tight. As for my centre fire rifles you are dead on the money with good loads and seating depth tests. Thankyou for doing this and now get that suit and your wife out for a nice meal 👍
Sincerely, thank you. I have shot exactly seven 600 yard F-Class events. The first five with a .308 whose receiver dates to the early 1940s (an Italian heritage Mauser) average was 357.8, woo hoo. The next two events I was allowed to shoot my .260 Remington with EC Muzzle Brake/Tuner in the open class. Average score there 376.5. My immediate goal was to average 360 (or to keep everything in the nine ring at 600 yards). These are my hunting guns and the objective was to improve my shooting. I have shot a variety of projectiles to arrive at a suitable "target" load. I know that physics dictates that the greater the density, overall mass, and barrel length the higher the frequency and the less the amplitude. The tuner has made it possible to shoot a variety of different weight projectiles to achieve my less than one MOA goal. Just saying.
Great info. I really appreciate you sharing this clear info. There is so much information on reloading on the internet it’s overwhelming. You videos try to cut to the chase and it’s great.
For those of us that can’t afford full custom rifles and spending endless hours at the loading bench & range, tuners are a god send and have saved me time & $$.
You know this guy is an engineer with a regular day job right? Many shooters have nice rifles because they save for them and it’s their passion. It’s cool you like tuners, but Kieth is just putting in the work.
@@DWhite-el4ihamen! He is just trying to teach us lessons! Even being a hunter reloader and collector I am still learning even though I may not need or us it🤔😳
Tuners work a lot better after you tune the rifle with a load then adjust the tuner to top of swing. The real benefit is to beable to adjust at a match when conditions like temperature are enough to affect consistency where a tuner will bring things back in by turning out or in a hash mark
@@DWhite-el4ihyou may want to follow someone who is actually successful in the shooting sports then…
even with full custom and long, dragged out load development, tuners are needed when you shoot in different parts of the country. I load dev at 750 sea level, shoot regularly for fun and personal best at 2200. and compete at anywhere in between..
One thing I think about when shooting is most of us do it because its fun. When complexities of competing get too technical it takes away from the fun. You can spend all this time and money with your focus on winning the match only to have it taken from you by the weather or wind or bad ammo. With 22LR you are pretty much at the mercy of the suppliers. If everything is too serious that equates to stress that none of us needs and you arent having fun.
I'm glad a shooter of note, has finally shared this insight. Many thanks Keith.
I use 3 tuner/brakes on 3 rifles same reamer cut chambers same twist barrels. Various round count barrels as well. All compete 1k VBR, load is the same across the board annealed, turned necks, trimmed, primer pockets uniformed, neck bushing fls, mandrel uniform, etc each firing less the neck trim of course. Custom bullets cnc turned and HBN coated. The load is the same and the tuner dials it in individually for each rifle. 6bra chambered, kreiger and brux barrels. Tuner/brake also kept my wife shooting with me, she had 3 shoulder surgeries and trying to keep her company at matches. So Keith I enjoy your podcasts and have applied to my own loading and shooting, keep up the good work.
Thank you
Ron Smith
I believe tuners really shine with factory barrels & recreational shooters.
As far as costs go my factory barrel was threaded and I purchased a Harrells tuner/brake for approx. $100.00 which is not very much. It would cost me well over $1k to buy a precision barrel and have the action machined so costs truly is not a factor.
My groups for my 223 have been reduced from 5/8" to 3/8" @ 100 yds. plus I reload the same all the time so no variance there. 😀
AGREE, if you're not turning your ammo and using production ammo (22lr) a tuner can help.
@@tridentsix that sentence doesn't make any sense at all
You definitely don't need to spend a lot of money on "custom rifles" or tuners to shoot as small as you mention...........
Example Tikka ctr in 6.5 creed shoots half inch or so with factory ammo...costs is around a grand for the gun..(less before covid lol)
I have actual proof to back up what I said what do you have ?
Tikkas are very well made rifles but they are not , not cheap. @@prone_wolf8871
Thanks Keith, that was very informative. I was considering a tuner but on the basis of your video I won't. Also, Bryan Litz did extensive testing of tuners with several calibres and after approx 800 rounds per barrel he concluded that a tuner will not come up with a REPEATABLE best load.
Thank you for your thoughts on tuners, Keith. I'm just getting started in the short range benchrest game. A couple friends of mine who have been doing benchrest for a long while have tried tuners and no longer use them. I haven't gotten to the point where I pick their brains for the reason why. For now I'm not going to use a tuner but rather develop a load using Tony Boyer's approach to arrive at a powder charge weight and bullet seating depth.
Im not a competitive shooter, so the keep it simple approach is something I can relate to. Thanks for the information and honesty in your experience with these tuners.
Well said, they are all valid points that you mentioned.
I’ve found constant loading and shooting form has given me the results I’m after, rather then adding a tuner or muzzle brake and adding another variable.
You have a lot of valid points and you have the proof of winning matches to back them up.
Great video
This has been heavily discussed the last few days in a few forums I’m in. I do not use them the main reasons I stated you touched on in here. Very well made video
Depends on what you are shooting. For 22LR, definitely need a tuner. Barrel profile is also important. Carbon fiber barrel are fantastic with tuners. In addition to tuners, I've added collars to my CF barrel and it practically shoot tight groups no matter what ammo I put in it. Adding collars changed the harmonics and POI, etc. The math is there to prove it out.
Adding Collars? How is that? Thank you.
tell us about collars pls!
My takeaway - most of us aren’t good enough to consistently shoot at a high level for any number of reason - adding another variable only complicates it. There is no easy fix - just ask golfers. Ha! Great video!
Very interesting presentation delivered, as always, dispassionately while presenting well thought of arguments. Personally, point #3 applies more than the other two due to lack of experience but my take, when it comes to technological matters, is that parsimony is desirable and something to strive for. The fewer things can go wrong, the fewer things to worry about.
I think this was more a lab coat than a sports jacket video... 🙂
Couldn't agree more in the Centerfire game. However I have found tuners for .22 LR accuracy to be absolutely fantastic! Thanks for the video.
Tuners in the rimfire game are so you can tune to the ammo. Centerfire you tune the ammo to the rifle
@@jennifferbondurant673 Love to hear more on the difference ... in both of your scenarios you mentioned you're tuning the ammo ... just that in the second instance you added "to the rifle". Please explain how in rimfire you turn a device on the end of a barrel and it affects the actual ammunition instead of how it performs in your rifle.
Thankyou I already was against them and all for just developing the right load, but now you have given me even more reason not to go with a tuner even though so many say they are magic
Work up your best load, then add a tuner, it will usually tighten your group.
The Williamsport guys knew this 45 years ago. I would never install one on a personal rifle.
Late to the discussion here but I thought I should thank you for your very logical explanation of why you don't use a tuner any longer. I bought a 25-06 Browning A-bolt in 1999 that has the BOSS system tuner on it from Kesselring gun shop here in Washington and it has served me well. I use this rifle for deer and antelope only, I shoot only one load in it, 110 ELDX over 58.5 grains of IMR 7977 with Federal GM 215M primers yielding 3120 fps and .7 MOA at 100 yards, before fiddling with the BOSS, .4 after many more rounds. For my intended use and range, this serves me quite well and I have no plans of changing bullets anytime soon. Maybe powder as 7977 is not being produced right now, but most likely won't burn up what I have on hand in the foreseeable future.
I also built up a 30 Nosler hunting rifle with a Pac-Nor match grade barrel that I worked up a load that shoots .4 MOA without a tuner and with far less ammo expenditure monkeying with a tuner. And again, I won't be changing my loads anytime soon as it suits my needs just fine. I totally get where you are coming from Keith, one can go down the rabbit whole chasing trends, IMO, tuners are no different than "Diet" pills, they work if you follow the directions but they are no sure thing. It was interesting that so many of the fanboys were indignant about your video, you eloquently explained your reasoning behind your decision, yet they took offense even though you qualified your statement by saying that it was your opinion and yours alone. Perhaps they felt they may have wasted some money and time and lashed out. I find your video's very informative and don't let the Trolls get to you!
I appreciate your insight into this tuner topic. I remember when Browning/Winchester came out with the Boss tuning system, maybe 20 years ago. They can work, but I think it is not the "ideal" way to tune a rifle/load combo. I personally am not interested in using a tuner, for many of the reasons you suggest. I would rather "tune" the load to my rifle than tune the barrel to a load. You made some additional points I had not thought of also, Maybe if a person has a factory rifle, shooting factory ammo, then using a tuner/brake combo could be an option for tuning in this scenario, but if I am hand loading for an accurate rifle, then I prefer to tune the load instead of the barrel. If someone has a rifle and load they need to shoot, and need something to work on short notice, possibly due to lack of components, a new rifle or lack of time, then a tuner could be useful in such a situation, but I would not rely on a tuner as a long term solution. I am more of a hunter than a competition shooter and you bring up a good points about the tuner coming loose. I have seen muzzle brakes come lose and destroy accuracy at the range and on hunting trips. Anything attached to the barrel needs to be tight and checked on a regular basis. For hunting, reliability is more important than accuracy as most hunters don't have the time to get a perfect rest and judging wind without flags or wind meters leaves a lot on the table.. As long as a rifle is reasonably accurate, but reliable/consistent, this is more important than 1/4 MOA accuracy with an inexperienced shooter or potential functionality issues with the rifle. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. There are lots of opinions regarding shooting, products, ammo, etc, but there are also many things which hold more true than not. Bryan
The most intelligent explanation I've have ever heard. 👌
I use a tuner bc I shoot factory ammo, I just make sure set screws are tight and have paint marked witness marks
So I had that happen to me on my 308 . The EC Cortina brake tuner combo got loose either in the case or on the ride to the range. Im taking it off and going to rely on powder charge and seating depth.
I have been considering a tuner on my next barrel, plenty of time to think about it as it is 8 months out with Brux. I started looking at tuners but remember how much I have seen others playing with it during a match. You make a lot of sense in your 3 reasons. This definitely helps to confirm my decision to not use a tuner. There is just no magic that can be purchased, Accuracy and Precision result from many different factors and nothing is going to change that. Thanks very much for sharing.
Thank you for the time to word the explanation so well.
Very interesting. I shoot NRA prone matches at the national level. It seems like there is a difference in the approach to tuners among the competitors I see. The folks that shoot from the sling get their rifle in tune with a lot of ammo, then don’t mess with the settings. The F class shooters seem to want to adjust more frequently.
Your absolutely correct concerning match day. Development is done during practice sessions. Match day is a day to win and the only way to do that is to pay attention to conditions and believe in you and the equipment 100%.
I could not agree more. They started in 22lr where loads can't be worked. I think to many people go for the tuner expecting magic, when at best it's another variable that needs controlled, in a world where the fewer variables the better.
Great info and thanks for sharing. I'm still a relative "newbie' in F Class shooting, solid EX-MA and am running a tuner on the RPR 6.5 CM I'm shooting. Yes, I know I need a more "proper" rifle and I'm getting there but, fantastic learning is occurring along the way. Right or wrong, I don't mess with the tuner very often, nor do I worry at a match if I need to adjust it. I've tested out to a great velocity node, seating depth and tuner setting and, currently will only worry about ambient temp, ammo temp and/or adjust the powder charge VERY slightly to compensate for anticipated temp/wx. One thing I've discovered is just how deep into even the roots of the weeds we shooters can go. The depths and minuscule variables seem to have no end. I would be interested to see how many, if any, multi "National" Level champions (FO, FTR) don't go there (into the weeds). Like, they just find a great load, seating depth and run with it all the time/all conditions and still manage major wins because of their shooting skills. Or, does such a shooter even exist?
There aren't a lot of multi-time National champions in a sport that is less than 20 years old. I think we all get into the weeds a bit in testing, just to make sure we aren't leaving anything on the table.
Interesting video! I agree with what you say. I almost bought a tuner but for some reason just thought it SAS a mistake for me and my load development routine. You just explained what those reasons were better than I ever could. I never really considered the psych angle though. Thanks for that!
Glad I had a listen in. I just saved $600 +
Thanks for reminding me of the law of diminishing returns.
I’m with you and your thinking process. All very valid points.
Thats a great point about the psychology of tuners. For those of us that tend to be obsessive about the little details there’s a danger of chasing your tail turning the tuner based on small sample size data that is pretty much meaningless.
I have gone to 1 shot groups. They are perfect every time.
I think I understand what is going on here. I also have been reconsidering a EC tuner. I have used the rubber doughnut type tuner with success with my old Den. 700 in rem.222 hand loads. When I developed a good load I used the tuner to fine tune. So then I stay there.
When I purchase a Savage mod. 10 with a 26" tactical barrel in 6cr I were surprised to find how easy it was to shoot bug holes at 100 Yds.
I now can see that a tuner isn't for the Savage 6CR. Why risk loosing what I have. I'm with you. KISS. keep it simple Stu...
I like your respect. You are like the Mr Rogers of long range… thank you for your wisdom you have saved me a lot of time and money.
Great logic...again well said. Excessive shooting before "record" is VERY detrimental (heat / fouling). OVERALL, SPOT ON.
Thank You for all your help.
You have saved me countless $$$ in the past. I look forward to watching your videos.
Thank You again.
You are so welcome!
A few shooters at my range, have recently purchased tuners & it’s the next big trend.
I very instinctively thought to myself, “Nope, don’t need one”
I didn’t know why, I just felt a strong “NO”
Now I know why. Thank you 👍
You are correct. The idea of loading is too eliminate variables, not create them.
It isn't new. They were around in the 80's. They even came stock on some factory rifles.
@@Michael-rg7mx I didn’t realize they have been around that long. I never saw them back then. But the trend at my local club is new. It’s catching on like AR’s, 6.5 Creedmoors & Vortex Scopes. Pretty soon everyone will have one.
@@tommykawasaki9676
It came stock on Brownings as the Boss. Ported or plain. That was 30 some years ago.
Factory ammo, same hole 3 shot groups @ 300 yards 30-06 EC tuner brake. The gun shot 1.5 MOA before the install... To me it works and that means money well spent.
Thank you for defining this question. I have been debating trying a tunner but feel it is just one more thing to spend energy and time towards. Know one has been able to give me a logical explanation about this subject, untill your video.
Very nice video. You express all your decisions on tuners based on F Class shooting and all the variables that need to be considered. It's more like keep it simple stupid by eliminating one item that could be overly relied upon or accidentally get out of tune. I myself use tuner brakes but I am just looking for hunting with it at reasonable ranges that does not require all that is involved with F-Class and just use common threaded barreled rifles. I do appreciate your videos because in the long game like you do you need to do the homework and do what it takes to reduce the mistakes. Winning in the wind is not easy. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for you're astute assessment, very good to weigh those factors indeed, I've been thinking about getting a tuner, to much hype in favor, Cheers
Excellent informative Video. Unfortunately trying to complete a true comment based on opinion may take very long. But I'll try somewhat. 1st off one has to deside what is the objective or what your even shooting for. 2nd Yeah if you don't have a treaded barrel already unlike almost everyone has today for a muzzel brake or a suppressor why even take that step. Almost all if not most custom rifles come with some form of threading. 3rd, Powder, Seating Depth, Bullet choice, barrels and Tuners are like a ring or circle. If you can complete a true node for each in your rifle, then you have completed the best you have to work with. Now as mentioned not every one has maybe the means or availability to purchase the best in all. Lastly, I would have to believe that the opinions in this scenario is for the most part based on F-Class competition shooting. Personally, I try to develop bullet, powder, and seating depth 1st to see what my rifle even likes. And later if the barrel is threaded from the gate, Yes by all means use to the Tune if desired or needed to possibly do any fine tuning to the node. IMHO.
I agree that if you are messing with your tuner in the field then it is a problem. I think if you simply use the tuner as a 3rd part of your load development and then lock it, leave it, forget it exists there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. At that point it is just the barrel end, not a field adjustment and you are back to assessing the conditions, not the rifle.
I disagree. I have tuners on ALL my rifles and LOVE them. I've never had any problems, ever...
Opinions make for horse races. 😎
I even have tuners for my tuners. Zero problems
Excellent video, completely agree. I've always thought that a tuner makes sense on a 22 where you can't adjust any other variables, ammo is cheap, and shots don't significantly wear the barrel; but on a center fire, where there's already a hundred other variables to nail down, barrels only last a couple thousand rounds, and ammo is $2 a shot, I agree they just don't make sense.
Terrific! Well thought out explanation …
Tuners are like the screws on a carburetor. As soon as anything goes wrong they make changes, because they can. Not because it is the problem.
My opinion. A barrel tuner doesn't make a bad barrel good. Bad ammo doesn't get any better with a barrel tuner. If the components are good and have been processed correctly, then what is the need for a barrel tuner? Thanks for the great video.
GREAT VIDEO. I used tuners on both rimfire and centerfire rifles (PRS)...USED TO. Changed to a straight taper barrel on both and took the tuners off. My rimfire still shoots sub-MOA groups at 300 yds, where we're generally shooting 3+ MOA targets...All good there. My centerfire 6BRA is a tack driver without a tuner because the gunsmith who does my barrels is an old bench-rest shooter and knows his stuff. My conclusion on tuning, specific to centerfire, where YOU control the cartridge is that you are actually tuning your CARTRIDGE to your barrel. Once I have powder charge, seating depth, my loading process honed, etc... I have tuned my cartridge for the harmonics of my barrel. That's just the way I think about it now. LOVED all three of your reasons and all make sense. Can't tell you how many rounds I wasted tuning the barrel, only to wonder why I might be off in competition (when it was because of me or other conditions I didn't consider), which then messes with my head the entire day.
Excellent Keith, thank you!
Very interesting, valid points. Thank you.
Interesting viewpoints. Thanks for sharing.
Here we go!
Interesting video, thank you for helping us
Thank you! You've covered it well...
Tuners work period. It doesn't take that long to learn which way to turn the tuner and how far to turn it.
How long will if take for your shooting audience to learn how much to heat up or cool down there ammo and which way to go when conditions change the tune? It's exacty the same as a tuner just a different way of getting there!
In comparison its far easier to turn a knob than to carry around a bucket of ice and a heater
Great video especially covering the psychological effect also works that way with trapshooting ;little less technical with the Clay target game
Great videos. Juist getting stated shooting at longer ranges at Douglas Ridge Rifle Club near Boring OR. Would like to get your opinion on the Tacom structured barrel.
I have a total of zero experience with those, so I can't really comment. If they were a little cheaper, I'd probably try one just for grins.
I stopped using tuners on my light gun class 1000yd benchrifle. Mostly because last barrel burnt out in July last year and i didnt have time to calibrate a tuner after tuning the barrel during prime time in match season. Also they are a lot of extra shots down a pipe. That being said Mike Ezell Tuners are the best available
Great video! I really like that you address the value of your psychological condition. Tuners do work, but the benefits do not seem to outweigh the risks in your scenario. I couldn't agree with your assessment more. I think people undervalue the risk of threading a barrel as well. For most people on premium barrels, this will not be a huge issue unless something goes horribly wrong. For someone that .1 moa could be the difference between a championship and a quiet drive home, it is a HUGE risk.
The psychological condition is such a huge factor.
I recently had a chance to work with a very disgruntled shooter at my range last week.
He was dealing with faulty equipment & the bottom line is, he was leaving the range with no confidence in himself or his gun.
I stopped him, let him use my rest, spotting scope & targets & he got back on track.
His gun was great, shooting was great & he left happy, feeling ready to hunt.
Thanks for sharing why you don’t use tuners. As for me, I will continue to use tuners because your three issues don’t apply to me. I am saving thousands of dollars by not having to do seating depth development (yes, I do find that the tuner substitutes seating depth development!). I have a competent gunsmith, and I am not an F-class shooter (i.e. a 0.5 MOA group is fine for me and then I go hunt). As long as the tuner remains on the same setting, the groups stay small. I agree that “tuning” in the field is not a good idea (unless you are very experienced in it), but the idea of a tuner is to tune at the range and then LEAVE it there for your hunt/competition. As for me, tuners are the business (saving lots of time and money). But I still gave you a thumbs up, because I value your opinion (which is somewhat aimed at competitive F-class shooters). Keep up the good work, Keith.
I use a tuner on my brake when competing because the load my rifle likes with my suppressor goes from 0.3 moa to 0.8 moa and i can get it back down to 0.3 with the tuner,
It saves me having 2 different loads for the brake and the suppressor.
I agree with you. If I was up to the author's level of competition where I have that kind of money for that kind of equipment(custom barrels, reloading equipment(powder measuring down to the 100 th of a grain), presses, etc, I probably would not need one. In my case, I developed rounds the old way of moving seating depth .002" in after finding the velocity node. Now, find the velocity node and tune. Works for me and they are on my rifles. I don't shoot competition.
Excellent info and well-reasoned.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Here's one of the selling points they say about selling tuners, " You can put your rifle back in tune, if it goes out of the node at the bench" or They say, " once you do load development, throw a tuner on it to get same groups and if groups change , turn it one way, ita save your range day"
Owl, one more, they say " insurance " just in case chit happens.
Well, I'm glad I watched this video.
Because for me, if something is out of tune, I'd rather want to know what to do to fix it than putting a ugly band-aid on it
I don't like how they look.
Thanks for a really good video, I enjoyed every word. 🇺🇸
Thanks for the video, excellent points.
My take on calibers over .22 that you can reload.
Well barrel length/weight is the real issue, look at it this way a Trombone (musical instrument) has a movable tube that you move to get the notes that you want, so if you don't move it into the right length well you get a bum note, then if you hit the right length, wham you have the right note coming out.
So just get you load right for each barrel.
Keep your powder dry.
From what I can gather, and this is a harsh judgement, barrel turners are more for the people who don't like doing load development. (What's the saying? There are those that reload to shoot, and those that shoot to reload?) They can just pick up factory ammo from the store, see what does well with their rifle, then tune to eke out more performance for their application.
In the grand scheme of things, it's probably going to help bring down the "cost of entry" for local and club competitions, and I think that'll be a good thing. At the higher level, I think we'll see a growing number of people who will use tuners to turn for conditions, I.E. It's a very hot day and they know their load will open up with temperature, so they use their tuner to compensate. That's going to take someone who is intimately familiar with their platform, though.
I will probably get a barrel tuner on a rifle sometime in the future, but only because I'm a natural tinkerer. At the end of the day, I love reloading, so if I had to depend on a barrel tuner to get one of my rifles to shoot right, well, I just wouldn't feel right. That's my personal preference.
Good points. For someone that doesn't reload, a tuner might well be a good idea. This video's context was that of a top level F-Class shooter. I would assume that tuners could be of benefit on a rifle with factory ammo (including rimfire). Thanks!
Agreed, the only rifle is have a tuner on is my 22 since it was extremely hard to test different rounds/lots and stock up on what worked well so I was stuck with buying a lot of whatever good SK and Lapua I could find and tune for it
Thank you for this information. I have not tried a tuner, great to hear opinions from others who have.
Thanks! So nice that the facts and the feelings are clearly seperated. Great video💪
Not all Tuners need to be cut to fit. once you get a good load after doing a load developement you can do a quick tune before you stretch it out at every outing. Thats all I need to ring steel for fun.
Your right its better to master your load and rifle but this is not all I load for or all I do so Tuners rock! If I took it as serious as you and went to competition I would spend countless hours try to reach for perfection but I'll settle for close enough. These are made for guys like me, who are seeing what one can do and try for distance just for personnal achivement. and of course getting new toys!
Thanks for sharing this information, I have been thinking about a tuner so it's great to have the pro's & cons to be able to make the right decision for you. 👍
At an F class match last year I was pair shooting with Master/High Master. He got into the mode of adjusting the tuner and he admitted to losing focus on shooting, Just as Keith describes. I'm convinced - no tuner on my center fires.
I agree Keith. I have two barrels and both are threaded for Cortina tuner. Don't use it but keep it mounted and tightened up. Next barrels will not be threaded. Is it better to leave it on tightened down or remove it completely with threads exposed?
I believe, and I've been wrong before, you're correct. And, you saved me a bunch of time and money- Thank you!
Now, I like Erik, I didn't at first, but I really like Erik now. He is a cool dude and helpful as well as (seems) honest. And, he shoots very very small 1000 yard groups.
But I believe your correct, I very much like what you said about being in tune with the environment!
Good vid ol'boy
Jesus is King
I have ordered a barrel with a tuner, because the firtst 500 shots will be factory ammo. And it will be the only factor i can have influence on.
Keith I really appreciate your insight into this. Truly makes sense… however under my use I truly love them. I do not shoot competitions and has allowed me to tune a thrown together load using quality powder with high load densities and just pick a bullet seating depth and make 1.5” groups consistently right at .5”. Now being that I am only making hunting ammo this saves me time and components as I can have a full on sighted in from new hunting load in 50 rounds. However this uses common threaded ends not the super fancy.. mine is a EC Tuner Brake.
For a competition gun I see your point! For the PRS guys who just use factory ammo or a hunting rifle your concerns of spinning the dial is still true but what it can accomplish is cool.
I am with you especially on the psychology part. I shoot shotgun and I shoot a lot better since I got a shotgun with Fixed choke. One less thing to think about during the competition. Very well said.
Whitworth's hexagonal barrel most likely never produced vibrations, and it's hexagonal projectile did not lose energy through friction losses. It shot over one thousand yards on black powder with unmatched accuracy.
I cannot say much because I have never ran a tuner however you have, carefully considered the risks which are many, and based on those you cancel out their use. I agree when you have the sort of risks as you describe, it would be crazy to put it on a competition rifle.
I agree with all this, but i love load testing for about 30 yrs and log all my work . never shot competition
Your spot on...
Realy not happy without the next big thing. Buy one..
For me old school is best.
Most don't know how to breath
I can't really offer an opinion because I've never used a tuner. However, it would be interesting to tally how many of the top 10 finishers at nationals or world championships use tuners. F-Class competitors throw incredible amounts of time and money into this game...and they aren't stupid.
Confidence Yes that old little troll sitting on your shoulder whispering in your ear that you need a tuner.... Nope I did my powder work, I did my seating depth I am using the best components I can find I am 72 years old I will take the results I get and be happy with them and just enjoy the challenge I am not a F class shooter just a long range steel ringer thanks for honest information....
I appreciate this video- Thanks.
The last hour of my life has been a roller coaster. I went from not knowing about tuners, to thinking they are great, to having nothing but doubt. Thanks.
Great content Keith. My one question is did the weight of the tuners make the powder or seating depth nodes longer. 🤔
Only the heaviest one had any chance of doing that, but the effect is subtle.
It's just sense and logic. A good shooter with good rifle don't need a tuner, but just a perfect load for the rifle, simple and easy, no need to complicate things with a tuner.
In a perfect world my friend.
Cortina had a video recently that showed the firing line of a f-class match that showed pretty much every gun with a tuner on it.
Great insight into tuners Keith! Great video. Hey question, how about for the ELR guys (mile plus)? Do you think it’s more applicable in that situation? And not necessarily in actual competition either…
I don't shoot ELR, so I don't know what the implementation would look like in that usage. Perhaps an accomplished ELR shooter would be better to ask?
Mine are all hunting rifles. To each his own. My $425 Mosberg Patriot 7 PRC shoots .25 moa. I bought it to see if I could make it shoot. It shot so good I bought one for son. A little more work but it shoots .25 moa also. My nephew just bought one and I’ll see how that shoots. All my guns are at least .5 moa. I developed my last load in 12 shots. I did get the load off of Long-range Only boys. I have enough experience with other powders to do that. Just bought 2 more EC tuner brakes because I’m setting up a couple of my families guns for hunting season. I think you’re totally wrong for me. But you do you. I run tuners on all my guns. Totally saves me component’s and time. If I had an F-class gun I’m sure I could make it shoot if I’m getting those results with thin hunting rifle barrels. EC Tuner-brakes are an essential part of my long range shooting. Respectfully.
Did you watch the Hornady podcast "Your groups are too small" - They basically say, unless you're shooting 30+ shot groups, you don't have any real data! Worth the watch!