What happens if you anneal the same case twice?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 พ.ค. 2022
- We get asked all the time if it is ok to anneal a case twice. Sometimes people loose track if they have annealed a case or not and want to make sure they won't potentially ruin it if it is annealed again. We answer that question in layman terms.
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The fact that somebody has invested this much time, research, knowledge and energy, into developing an absolutely top-shelf product for the relatively small reloading community is incredible. Everyone one of us handloaders is lucky to have a company like AMP in the industry.
Just a shame we all can't afford one of these annealers eh 🤔
Hands down the clearest explanation of annealing and it's effects on brass. If you anneal, are thinking about annealing you should watch this first!
I just started annealing my cases because it's beneficial (lol)... but NOW I actually know why! This is the BEST tutorial on the How/Why you should anneal.
Brilliant video and explanation - now I can intelligently answer when somebody asks why I go through the trouble to anneal my brass. Cheers!
Great video, thank you for that explanation. Just getting into reloading and this is pure gold.
Great video; thank you for framing it in an easy to digest format.
Absolutely the perfect explanation on annealing I’ve heard!!! And it’s effects. Unable to fund your annealer yet but working on it.
Great video. The results were what I expected but it is a great explanation of what annealing does and addresses some of the misconceptions of where the work hardness comes from. I have sent it out to a few friends to better understand the process.
Absolutely FASCINATING! I truly enjoy reloading to go along with my shooting proclivities but when you understand the SCIENCE behind some of the techniques used, it truly makes the hobby that much more enjoyable.
* note * I use the term 'hobby' here but those of us who shoot as a RIGHT understand my meaning... I hope!
Fantastic insight into what annealing is, and means for reloading. Thanks!
Outstanding video! As a Licensed Engineer I totally concur! I also own your latest AMP and it have improved my reloading process and accuracy significantly!
"licensed engineer"
Can you share some data?
As a licensed pilot I agree with the statement the licensed engineer said.
stupid reply. I am an engineer myself, but im not licensed, so i guess im nothing. even then, i wouldnt bring my proffesion into it. and by the way, you certainly mean you are a P.E. which stands for Professional Engineer. Unfortunatly, all that really means is that you studies extra hard, most likely straight out of college, and passed a simple test. Congrats to you. However, most engineers with a few years of experience, are WAY smarter than an engineer that most likely saw ZERO real life engineering scenarios. So, in reality, it means NOTHING. That's why I didn't waist my time perusing a P.E., or as you call it, a professional engineer. Unless you are using the term "professional" in the normal sense, as a person who get paid to do a job. So basically a janitor at a school, for example is a professional janitor. Absolutely not down playing a janitors duties. I could easily chose a beggar at a grocery store, and, again, no harm intended.
Nobody likes a name dropper and equally, nobody likes a career dropper. Get a life
At the school of metal working they taught us...
Rapid cooling is called a quench. When heated then quenched it is hardened.
Brilliant stuff! I’ve always been a chemistry/physics nerd and this stuff is fascinating. I’m definitely going to get one of these as soon as I can. I like the idea of being this precise with the character of my brass and being able to tailor the annealing process to the specific type of brass.
one of the best explanation about annealing I've ever seen on internet, thank you sir!
I have to say Well done sir! Fantastic video from start to finish one of the best explanations of this process I've ever seen done. I can only dream of a machine like that for my loading bench. But it's still fun to watch
Thanks for explaining the annealing and hardening processes in this manner. Understanding how the energy is stored and released by the two processes helps to make it so much clearer.
Thanks for the interesting video. Annealing has always been a little vague to me. This is a very good explanation of what is happening.
Thank you for presenting the information in such a concise and easily understood manner. You are an excellent teacher sir.
LoL I was asking myself this question 3 days ago, and what I found today, the most comprehensive answer possible to find. Thanks!
This was extremely well done. I have purchased two AMP annealers. First one sold to a friend that was partner and second now sitting on my shelf forever. I am flagging this video for it’s great information. Thank you
This was informative and easy to understand. Thank you!
Thank you for making this video! I'm now smarter for watching it! The hardness tester is truly a neat apparatus!
Thank you for sharing your expertise.
Outstanding what you are doing for the reloaders world 👍👍👍
Thank you for these demonstrations! It's completely fascinating metallurgical science and I'm sure that you aren't even scratching the surface (is that a pun🤣?)! There are a few lessons to learn in this, for me: 1 - This is why I should avoid excessive resizing like the plague. 2 - The result of this demonstration tells why there is a nice benefit of annealing the necks after each firing...and...3 - If there is a Handloading Product of the Year award, the AMP annealer should have won it! Thank you sincerely for explaining these aspects!
Awesome video! This answered a lot of the questions I had while I was thinking deep thoughts about annealing....while annealing. :)
I accidentally annealed a bunch of Lapua 6.5CM brass with the wrong (way too low) setting, and now I feel better about going back and doing it with the correct setting!
Great video … excellent information …thanks !
Thank you very much, was given at a middle school level of understanding. Perfect for me!
Bravo.. Great research and explanation.. Thanks
Excellent video.
As soon as I can sell off a thing or two, I will definitely be buying one of your Annealing machines.
Excellent information, I learned a lot!!
Awesome so this makes it much easier for those annealing with torch to achieve consistency as you can simply anneal the cases twice and so long as your not over annealing, chances are your increasing the chance all are annealed enough. This is amazing data. Thank you very much. I would love one of these machines but for now it is too expensive.
Edit: self testing
Upon annealing my own, I decided to now anneal twice be caused i anneal by hand with torch. And sure as silk is smooth, the seating force was so much more consistent. I error on the side of under annealing as to not ruin my expensive brass so twice annealing ensures the off chance one was under annealed, the other time pushed it far enough as to match the rest. And this run was my most consistent! Thanks
This is brilliant! Thank you for the excellent presentation.
RIP to some more old reloader's lore. LOL
Awesome explanation.
I did not expect that one sizing would make such a huge difference! I test fired from AR15 one Starline 6.5 Grendel case 21 times before it failed and I only annealed after 19th firing. The loads varied but consisted mainly from mid-high to max book data in steps. The case failed not from what you would expect, there was 2 slits in the neck that perforated. The barrel was cheap and feed ramp had sharp edges. The 2nd case lasted 14 times, I annealed every 2-3 firings. Same type of fail. Not the same loads. I noticed I had to trim the case significantly more as it grew but I also used Lee factory crimp. I did have the die setup for 2-3 thousand shoulder bump each time I FL sized. Makes me want to repeat the same with my bolt action.
EXCELLENT video...answered so many questions. Why would anyone trust a propane anneal after seeing this.
Very interesting and scientific. The cold work-hardening part was interesting also to raise the brass hardness.
Fantastic video! Thank you for taking the time to make it and share it.. can I ask if you have done a similar work hardening test after cleaning brass with wet tumbling and steel pins? I can see how it would affect the hardness but not sure if the effect would be negligible or not.. without some fairly expensive and Gucci equipment, like you have it would be tricky to know.. thank you again for the video!
We discuss this in part one of our Annealing under the microscope series: www.ampannealing.com/articles/40/annealing-under-the-microscope/
If you scroll down to point 7.
Awesome question and reference to information. Based on your study and conclusion, as I too tumble with SS pins, it creates a ultra thin and almost nickel plated-like hardened surface. Sounds like itll help it from outter wear and scratches without over work hardening and ruining the case… im guessing. This is extreme news to me and I wish more people had access to your data because there are SO many misconceptions!
Great demonstration, 👌
That was very interesting, thanks.
Fantastic information!!! 😺
I guess important to let case fully cool down before it's annealed again...
Thanks for clearly explained the concept of energy release as it pertains to hardness
Excellent video, thanks for the informatiom ..............................
Very interesting and well explained
Excellent video
That was awesome, thank you
brilliant explanation! The Neil DeGrass of annealing I'd say. So is that piece of brass now ruined? Or since you didn't take it to extremes is it OK right now post testing?
Excellent information…I just became a customer.
Wild, I guess I should leave the machine running when I'm setting up my sizing die and probably use a freshly annealed piece for every time I adjust. I'd be curious to see where my brass lands and how consistent batch to batch is.
Is there more stored energy with an expander ball making 2x passes vs a mandrel only making one?
I either need to up my flame annealing game or just get a amp... dang.
Very professionally presented well done. but what temp were you annealing at and time that is the problem i have so many different ways on TH-cam it is hard to tell but this is the first time i have seen a hardness tester being used and it makes sense to me.
We don't anneal to a target Temp/time. Those things vary depending on the size of the case.
AZTEC analyses the brass by heating it up to a precise melt point and based on the information you put into the annealer beforehand (pilot code and suffix) will apply one of a number of formulas we have created using hardness testing to very in order to create the correct annealing setting.
Finally someone that can make me understand annealing
Hello again i watched it again. Do you have much variation between case brands? great explanation :-)
Thank You!!
Great explanation....How many times did you burn your fingers before perfecting that damp cloth technique!
Very cool vid. Thanks
A very relevant video given that I have my AMP set to automatic and a couple times while annealing, the case went back into the annealing machine due to my fat fingers! I was worried about it, but thought that it wouldn't make a difference for some reason. Glad you verified that for me! I can put those two cases back in the rotation. Thanks!
Please note that the case needs to be cooled down before annealing a second time will have no impact. If you have just pulled it out of the annealer and it is hot and put it back in and immediately apply the same heat setting it will get softer due to it starting at an already high temp. The case should still be ok, however use it as a fouler for that cycle and it should be ok again for the next cycle after it has been sized and shot and re work hardened. (IF there are visible signs of melting however, discard the case)
@@annealingmadeperfect1257 Thanks for the follow-up...No sign of damage and I plan on using it for exactly that...a fouling round. Thanks again.
Great video. Where are the diamonds coming from that you are measuring to determine hardness?
very impressive presentation.
Not just mumbo jumbo but scientific proof of the process. Great information
Very good demonstration about how hardness is imparted into brass rifle cases. After watching this video and videos that show test results with the AMP press I am thinking about changing my order of operation when reloading and I wonder if you have tested this. Now, I de-prime, tumble, trim, anneal, size and load my brass. I'm considering moving the annealing function after the sizing so that the only hardness imparted to the brass will be in the bullet seating. It seems that should give more consistent results. I would love to see you test that theory.
We have always maintained that annealing before sizing yields the best results.
Most reloaders trim after the sizing process because the cases get stretched after being resized, just check your OAL before and after you run the brass through the sizing die and it is easy to see. The exception would be if you only neck size then you will not see as dramatic of a result as when you FLS.
Very good information on work hardening brass and the AMP. I'm looking for a cost effective way to analyze by brass without spending thousands on industrial grade testing equipment. Would you recommend (or not) the Webster brass hardness tester for determining relative (cartridge) brass hardness pre and post annealing?
I built my own induction annealer for cartridge brass and use a Webster hardness tester to check case neck hardness before and after annealing. It works extremely well. See the whole process here th-cam.com/video/SF0YmmeEJK4/w-d-xo.html&ab_channel=RussDouglas222
Id like an answer for this question also!
is it better to anneal AFTER resizing than before (to release stored energy from resizing)? Will concentricity be affected by annealing; will the release of stored energy significantly distort the neck wall?
Are you suggesting that there is some material gain in neck tension consistency AND accuracy by annealing before and after sizing brass?
I also would be interested in your answer to this question. thx.
Great video. How many times could you run a case through that program before you saw a change in hardness? I assume there is a limit…
My bet is the brass can be hardened and annealed a lot. All your doing is adding and removing stored energy.
After watching all your videos, I have even more questions than before. Why is 100 VH considered by you to be ideal? Would a higher hardness be better for reliability of extraction in semi-automatic applications? How consistent is the after-sizing hardness [given all fire-formed brass of the same manufacturer]; do I need to anneal before and after sizing, or is one of the other adequate? Being not a wealthy man, I’ll be lucky to ever afford an annealer, but I’m sure I certainly can’t buy a hardness tester.
Great video I don’t anneal my 223 ammunition and works just fine 1/2 Moa but it’s probably more critical for bigger capacity cases I don’t really know.
Hello. Could I ask for a test of the hardness of the brass depending on the cooling time? Slow cooling or bathing in cold water. There are some videos on the web that suggest a lot depends on it.
We have found no change in hardness with freshly annealed brass with or without quenching.
We prefer to let them cool in a rack over several minutes as that way you don't have to dry them off.
A quick question, what if I annealed the case few weeks or months ago, but did not size it at all, now if I want to use the case, should I anneal again or they are good to go to get sized?
Excellent demonstration. So for we with a, Mark 1 Mod 80 year old, eyeball and a torch, the actual hardness achieved is ??? every time. I have reloaded a whole bunch of cartridges. I do full length resize since I never want a cartridge to be difficult to seat in the barrel. Because of the above uncertainty, I have trimmed but never annealed. I use a lifetime of 5 reloads or six firings as my toss 'em out number. And of course any loose primer pocket gets the boot. I shoot for fur or fun so a dollar or two here or there is not an issue at all.
I’m in the same boat.
Fascinating. Over my head. But interesting.
this is a great example of how fine a resolution the numbers are. you dropped four point and near no change in anneal.
I already completed sizing all my old once fired 7.62 NATO brass, but wanted to anneal it after noticing a few split necks from 2nd firing.
Is it OK to anneal brass after it's all been sized and polished?
Can you say if the case in the Maschine really opticaly glued? Or short beforde..?
Been hand loading for 40+ years. Never annealed, but understand the principles of it. 2 Questions, should you anneal before or after sizing and should annealing be done every time?
You have to anneal before sizing. If you do it afterwards, your neck tension is not consistent (at least that's my understanding of it).
And you should anneal every time you reload, because it affects your neck tension and therefore your precision. You're not going to be consistent with your neck tension if you do it only every couple of times or so. if you don't anneal, there is more energy needed to overcome the higher tension of the neck.
Very interesting. So basically resizing brass is what hardens it? It would be interesting to see the harness numbers between using little or no resizing lube and a lot of lube or even different types of lube.
It's the stretching of the brass in the die that hardens it (adds energy). The only impact lube should have is to control the sizing action, not change the amount of energy added. I'm guessing if a die is used to significantly change the case dimensions as in making a wildcat case, more energy could be added because you're working the case more. Very interesting presentation
@@John-uo1qf thinking out loud here - but is perhaps more energy absorbed with little or no lube? Certainly there will be some energy released as heat due to more or less friction. Would be interesting to see using his setup.
@@UnCoolDad it would require more force (energy) so yes.
Good stuff
Interesting results.
I would assume that shooting has little effect due to the fact that the heat from the powder combustion. The brass does move when a round is fired... But it isn't being cold worked... The brass is being worked while hot.
...now I'm looking at my reloads and thinking "I could have made you better"
Annealing relaxes the atoms, so the dimensions will be off from the neck adjustments that you made. Would it not be better to over anneal the case and then do neck adjustments, testing the harness afterwards should be under 100?
Interesting question!
I should have watched this video when it came out. I have 3 wildcats. .20PPC (.220 Russian case necked down to .20), .338 Edge (.300 RUM necked up to .338), and the much maligned 8.6BLK. People that make their own brass use different cases for the parent. During resizing I use a neck bushing die with an expander ball because that's the die that is available. It's the only die that I still have an expander ball in. Everything else is FL/Neck bushing followed by a mandrel. Typically I'll anneal then size. With the 8.6BLK, as long as I'm using the expander ball, it seems like I should anneal after the carnage of the expander ball's travel. Or better still, ditch the ball.
Some people go deep on the reloading rabbit hole.... that ia a very scientific approach to reloading
Makes me wonder what step in reloading is the best time to anneal my case? You want it pliable for shoulder bumping or neck sizing for little to no spring back. But you don't want it hard by the time you seat your bullet for neck tension. I likely won't anneal twice between these steps. What are you pros doing out there? Fascinating that one run up in a FLR you're getting the brass that much more work hardened.
When should you anneal your brass? When new or after a number of sizings?
I haven't seen Vickers being done on curved surfaces and not using the reticles to measure the diamond tips. Interesting.
So essentially keeping the device at the same setting prevents any additional hardness from being relieved from additional cycles.
I can anneal brass with a candle or a butane torch and get very good results,I have done everything from 22 hornet to 50 BMS cases and have had good results,I prefer dropping the brass into a cold bucket of water over the wet rag method,I wish I had this guys more scientific method but I don't so I have to go with what I got.Its better to under anneal than over do it but with practice you can get it right every time but don't cook your brass.
Excellent 👌
All I have to do now is save my pennies to buy one 😂😂
Can we call the hardening part in the die strain hardening?
I have an AMP 2 as well. What if I anneal 2x in quick succession. The case will be annealed the 2nd time while the case is already very hot, and I'm assuming that in Aztec mode the machine is not measuring temperature of each case being annealed so it will get the same time+power level, etc. Won't it over-anneal?
If you anneal a second time before the case has had a chance to cool down it will over anneal so don't do that. To be honest we cant think of a scenario where that would happen intentionally or even by mistake.
Back in the old days (1960's) we reloaded thousands of shells and didn't do any of this complicated stuff. Never had any problems at all. Maybe the brass was different back then?
No, it’s just that back in the old days, technology wasn’t as available for as cheap as it is now. A microscope like the one he has probably costs 75,000-100,000 today, 30 years ago or before it was probably the same price but adjusted for inflation would have cost much more relatively speaking. Plus people just shot and once the case head separated, neck split or primer pocket was blown, you just tossed it out. With modern science we can easily explain what is happening and what causes it.
What is the effect on ammo performance of this extreme precision of brass hardness? 🧐
You might want to read some of our research on this:
www.ampannealing.com/articles/
So according to this video it shouldn't matter how precise the annealing is because once you size it. The hardness will be the same no matter if you dropped it to 98 to 100. It will just make the life of the brass live longer.
We used one of these machines in our mechanic of materials sciences lab class. Hard ass teacher! But sure learned a lot. mechanical engineering degree.
What happens if you over aneal the brass? As the opposite relationship to your test under annealing
Very informative, maybe add a little lemon in that water next time 😂👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
SO If im using a fire annealer how red does it need to go before enough energy is released?
So, should I anneal, resize, and then anneal again before seating the projectile?
Thanks.
This was my first thought after watching the video. Maybe someone can test that to see if it matters on target. Also, would that second anneal after sizing be “too soft” to properly hold the projectile (less neck “tension”)?
@@steve11b29 I was wondering if it would be the opposite - more neck tension due to the increased springiness.
(Or less stiffness)
I may have to give this a try - as I am doing my prep at the moment!
I don't know. If you anneal again, it may weaken the "spring back" needed for proper neck tension. It also may not have enough "spring" to aid in extraction if the chamber is dirty/fouled.
It may just come down to the caliber/cartridge, action (bolt gun vs semi-auto) and ultimately what one gun/barrel/chamber prefers.
@@Rowrin Indeed. There is a bit more thinking to do here.
I don't think it would affect extraction though (bolt action), as it would be work-hardened again after firing.
With all the primo gear, I’m a little disappointed that you don’t have an electron microscope sitting on your desk to the left to analyze the case on a molecular level…
What happens if you over anneal the case by the same amount you under annealed?
How much energy or hardness is added when seating a bullet ?
I think about 3 vickers.
Started the video off at 136 vickers presumably after firing, then annealed down to 98 vickers, sized up to 130 vickers so I reckon about 3 vickers for seating and another 3 vickers for firing.
Would the wet rag alter the stresses and make this more like a normalizing process?
We have found no change in metallurgy with or without cooling them down in this way.